Soulbeast Needs Some Genuine Nerf Bat Love in the Next Balance Update - Page 4 — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Soulbeast Needs Some Genuine Nerf Bat Love in the Next Balance Update

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  • Crab Fear.1624Crab Fear.1624 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Burnfall.9573 said:
    Reality Check; For nearly 4 years; Rangers were the underdog in the game and Thief and Mesmer continue to be Toxic-Top Dogs in the game. Than something happened; Rangers finally found a dev who stood by their side till this day.

    You are hearing it correctly- Rangers have a dev who is backing them up from being an underdog profession to a Top Dog profession.

    'Power tends to corrupt and absolute power corrupts absolutely '

    There is nothing wrong of being powerful. What is wrong when the power becomes Toxic. That is the problem with the balance- too much power= Toxicity

    In conclusion; Rangers amongst others have joined Thief and Mesmer Toxicity.

    Toxicity has become rooted in the game balance design because of Thief and Mesmer.

    To solve the Toxic Power Crisis- Thief and Mesmer must be completely removed so healthy competitive balance can be addressed and exercised.

    Until then-No amount of nerfs will fix the Toxic Power Hunger Crave until Thief and Mesmer are rooted out than later be fully redesigned with a fresh start of healthy competitive balance.

    (The other alternative to nerfing the Toxic Power Hunger Crave is to nerf all professions to the ground alongside with Thief and Mesmer being hit the most with severe nerfs) than rework Thief and Mesmer from the ground up

    What thief is toxic?

    Please be specific and concise, and please no videos from the long past. Let's keep it current and real.

    If we are discussing skill disparity, that problem can't be solved by the devs (though they have tried with power creep).

    What specific element about thief makes you hate them?

    I feel convinced you main a necro, and it's not like good necros have a problem with most thieves in today's game.

    I feel that the insta-cast face roll of scourge is broken, unfair, and unfun. Doubly so when paired with any type of support, though skilled players can live without it.

    Do you see me visiting every single thread bringing some issues to the attention of devs saying "oh btw, necro needs to be deleted"?

    Imagine if death judgement was aoe and hit 5 targets with the current damage....

    Soon™ ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

  • Twilight Tempest.7584Twilight Tempest.7584 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 4, 2019

    @shadowpass.4236 said:
    @Twilight Tempest.7584

    I read everything, but I'm not going to address every point individually for the sake of brevity.

    As I've mentioned in the past, I dislike these gimmick builds. Not only do they require a very small amount of skill to play, but they aren't fun to use and/or fight against. In other words, if Sic Em was removed entirely, I wouldn't bat an eye.

    EDIT: The more I think about it, the more I know I would feel bad farming people the way the "gimmick" Soulbeast did. It just wouldn't be fun knowing I'm cheesing a cheap combo to exploit peoples' ignorance of how it works. It really doesn't matter if the build doesn't cut it at the top (an argument often presented to say SLB is fine). If it's wreaking havoc on a huge chunk of the player base--and by nature, 1-shot builds do--I say it's a problem. Again, the same situation existed and the same arguments were made concerning condi-mirage's condi-bombs while having excellent defenses, and we all know how that played out. If there is any shred of balancing consistency, precedent, and fairness, the same should happen here.

    It means a lot that you'd willingly give up Sic 'Em. There are people here who actually want it buffed, let alone nerfed. Also someone above saying OWP needs a buff. All I want is for SLB damage to be toned down as part of a universal reverse power-creeping. However that is best accomplished, I trust to the profession experts.

    In response to your build's lack of the defensives, I'd recommend running this build. Even though it's been nerfed, the damage potential on condi mirage is still insane and you have plenty of ways to survive different builds/matchups. :)

    Not to get too off topic, but really quickly...

    Lately I'm actually running a build pretty similar to your suggestion. Only differences are:

    • Axe instead of Sword - just because I'm more familiar with axe and the community says sword is bad, but I'm open to trying it
    • Mirrored Axes instead of Desert Distortion since running axe
    • Evasive Mirror (despite being overnerfed with a 10 sec ICD in the last update) instead of Blinding Dissipation (also bizarrely nerfed in the last update to only apply to Cry of Frustration). [The lack of decent options in Dueling Adept following recent nerfs is a discussion unto itself within the Mes community.]
    • Wizard Amulet instead of Deadshot - curious what's better here
    • Rune of Adventure (the old meta standby) instead of Rune of Resistance - I'm not sure giving up +300 condition damage and (nerfed) endurance on heal in favor of Toughness is going to help my insane damage potential, but I know you suggested RoR to make up for the loss of cleanse from Arcane Thievery.

    Thanks again. I appreciate that you always try to be helpful. :)

  • Solori.6025Solori.6025 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Crab Fear.1624 said:

    @Burnfall.9573 said:
    Reality Check; For nearly 4 years; Rangers were the underdog in the game and Thief and Mesmer continue to be Toxic-Top Dogs in the game. Than something happened; Rangers finally found a dev who stood by their side till this day.

    You are hearing it correctly- Rangers have a dev who is backing them up from being an underdog profession to a Top Dog profession.

    'Power tends to corrupt and absolute power corrupts absolutely '

    There is nothing wrong of being powerful. What is wrong when the power becomes Toxic. That is the problem with the balance- too much power= Toxicity

    In conclusion; Rangers amongst others have joined Thief and Mesmer Toxicity.

    Toxicity has become rooted in the game balance design because of Thief and Mesmer.

    To solve the Toxic Power Crisis- Thief and Mesmer must be completely removed so healthy competitive balance can be addressed and exercised.

    Until then-No amount of nerfs will fix the Toxic Power Hunger Crave until Thief and Mesmer are rooted out than later be fully redesigned with a fresh start of healthy competitive balance.

    (The other alternative to nerfing the Toxic Power Hunger Crave is to nerf all professions to the ground alongside with Thief and Mesmer being hit the most with severe nerfs) than rework Thief and Mesmer from the ground up

    What thief is toxic?

    Please be specific and concise, and please no videos from the long past. Let's keep it current and real.

    If we are discussing skill disparity, that problem can't be solved by the devs (though they have tried with power creep).

    What specific element about thief makes you hate them?

    I feel convinced you main a necro, and it's not like good necros have a problem with most thieves in today's game.

    I feel that the insta-cast face roll of scourge is broken, unfair, and unfun. Doubly so when paired with any type of support, though skilled players can live without it.

    Do you see me visiting every single thread bringing some issues to the attention of devs saying "oh btw, necro needs to be deleted"?

    Imagine if death judgement was aoe and hit 5 targets with the current damage....

    Just...dont...
    Trust me......

    Tingle my stingleberry

  • Anput.4620Anput.4620 Member ✭✭✭

    This is like when MOBA players ask for bad pubstomp characters to be nerfed because they went 21/2 in their casual game.

  • bigo.9037bigo.9037 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 4, 2019

    @Multicolorhipster.9751 said:
    Before anyone tries to use it as an excuse to make eachother look like fools, can we all agree that Rapid Fire isn't the issue, but merely a part of the issue?

    Sic 'Em sniper isn't just a gimmicky 1-shot build like people preach, it's actually an equal-parts sustainy, run of the mill side-noder. Meta Battle even recommends they play that way, and they can; because they have the absolute highest and easy access ways to stack damage multipliers(That's not additive) on top of all their mobility, healing, stability, stealth, and weapon skills that give blocks and evades tied to damage AND CC AND movement, and the cherry on top is despite having the highest on-demand multipliers; their attacks are unblockable every 10 seconds minimum, for 4 seconds.

    Since blocks also seem to count as reflects and destroy projectiles in a lot of cases, this means your only option the majority of the time is to just dodge, since most builds and some classes don't incorporate invulns, fewer even; invulns that last 4 seconds. That's where people get mad at Rapid Fire, I think. Not just that though, Point-Blank, Maul, and pretty much all the Smokescale skills, but still; that's not the issue. The Issue is everything else I mentioned, especially the part about the highest on-demand multipliers all coming at you all unblockable-like.

    Want proof? Here's all the multipliers for some of the most commonly played side-noders:

    Holo - 25% From Laser's edge + Excessive Energy.
    Herald - 62% but that's with max stacks of EVERYTHING, and after using Phase Travel.
    Power Shatter Mirage - 12.5% only, and that's with max stacks of vuln from Fragility.
    Spellbreaker - 30% - Peak Perforamnce, Magebane, Warriors Sprint, and Burst Mastery.

    And Then Soulbeast! - 42% And that's just from traits alone, not including Sic 'Em. Furious Strength, Twice as Viscous, Oppressive Superiority, Loud whistle, and 2h Training(Kind of weird too that this trait exists as it does when everything else of the sort was changed to give a stat boost rather than a straight damage multiplier)
    That becomes 82% with Sic 'Em.

    Again, these are damage multipliers, and like I say; they're far easier for Soulbeast to benefit from than say a Herald, Mesmer, or Spellbreaker because a lot of thiers rely on stacking effects and things never go so perfectly as to have the max damage possible at once. For Holo it's a little easier, but they do objectively less damage than Soulbeast; whose modifiers are also tied to Boons, CC, Health, or just flat inexcusable damage increases.

    You're wrong about 2 things ranger related.
    1. even if you wanted to spam unblockable, it's not viable. You merge, got 4 seconds. You wanna use some of your beast abilities before you unmerge again so you gotta wait a bit. Then AFTER you unmerge (when your weapon dmg is back to normal) you wait 10 seconds before you can do it again. Realistically, if you want to spam unblockable reasonably it's probably more like 4s/15-20s.

    1. What are you talking about with blocks? You mean Unstoppable Union? Yea you usually have to dodge it. But in a real fight you can't always wait that long without taking dmg just to use unblockable RF.
  • Burnfall.9573Burnfall.9573 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 4, 2019

    @Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

    @Burnfall.9573 said:
    (The other alternative to nerfing the Toxic Power Hunger Crave is to nerf all professions to the ground alongside with Thief and Mesmer being hit the most with severe nerfs as Punishments for 7 years of Toxicity ) than rework Thief and Mesmer from the ground up as examples to healthy competition

    Does thief get extra punishment for hard countering mesmer with its toxicity? :p

    Yes

    Mesmers are design to be Thief scapegoat of Toxicity

    (in fact, Mesmers received more nerfs than Thief in Guild Wars 2 since releas)

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Burnfall.9573 said:

    @Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

    @Burnfall.9573 said:
    (The other alternative to nerfing the Toxic Power Hunger Crave is to nerf all professions to the ground alongside with Thief and Mesmer being hit the most with severe nerfs as Punishments for 7 years of Toxicity ) than rework Thief and Mesmer from the ground up as examples to healthy competition

    Does thief get extra punishment for hard countering mesmer with its toxicity? :p

    Yes

    Mesmers are design to be Thief scapegoat of Toxicity

    (in fact, Mesmers received more nerfs than Thief in Guild Wars 2 since releas)

    Lol wut?
    Man to live in ur world.

  • The soulbeast sicem lb build has been around for a very long time, kind of interesting that people suddenly start crying for nerf once a build becomes more popular. What is next, FA weaver burst being too high? If people honestly dislike 1 shot burst so much, they should be complaining about the class design, not one particular skill/combo.

  • @bigo.9037 said:
    You're wrong about 2 things ranger related.
    1. even if you wanted to spam unblockable, it's not viable. You merge, got 4 seconds. You wanna use some of your beast abilities before you unmerge again so you gotta wait a bit. Then AFTER you unmerge (when your weapon dmg is back to normal) you wait 10 seconds before you can do it again. Realistically, if you want to spam unblockable reasonably it's probably more like 4s/15-20s.

    1. What are you talking about with blocks? You mean Unstoppable Union? Yea you usually have to dodge it. But in a real fight you can't always wait that long without taking dmg just to use unblockable RF.

    Like I said, 10 seconds "minimum." There's no internal cooldown for Unstoppable union so it's entirely possible to use it every ten seconds. While it may not be practical to do that, it is entirely possible, and still way too short for 4 seconds of unblockables tied to traits and not utilities.

    I've played Sic 'Em sniper to test and it's not only possible, but rather easy to wait out beastmode's CD once, twice, or as many times as you need through movement skills, stealth, and GS weapon abilities. Even then; you get a further flat stat boost in Beatmode if you decide to stay merged, and like you just said it isn't practical to spam unstoppable union. You're completely right, it isn't practical, because most every class isn't capable of spamming blocks and the extra power and fero in beast mode makes that 82% damage multiplier even more rewarding; to which, you don't even need unstoppable union to benefit from. It's like giving someone a yacht when they ask for ice cream.

    Remove Ranked DuoQ pls&ty

  • Arheundel.6451Arheundel.6451 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Paradoxoglanis.1904 said:
    The soulbeast sicem lb build has been around for a very long time, kind of interesting that people suddenly start crying for nerf once a build becomes more popular. What is next, FA weaver burst being too high? If people honestly dislike 1 shot burst so much, they should be complaining about the class design, not one particular skill/combo.

    People dislike to die ...reason they spend all day on the forum asking to nerf what kills them

    -A wise man once said- "Fight cheese with cheese or be cheesed in return, mind not those who will accuse you of being a cheese as they like cheese themselves"

  • bigo.9037bigo.9037 Member ✭✭✭

    @Multicolorhipster.9751 said:

    @bigo.9037 said:
    You're wrong about 2 things ranger related.
    1. even if you wanted to spam unblockable, it's not viable. You merge, got 4 seconds. You wanna use some of your beast abilities before you unmerge again so you gotta wait a bit. Then AFTER you unmerge (when your weapon dmg is back to normal) you wait 10 seconds before you can do it again. Realistically, if you want to spam unblockable reasonably it's probably more like 4s/15-20s.

    1. What are you talking about with blocks? You mean Unstoppable Union? Yea you usually have to dodge it. But in a real fight you can't always wait that long without taking dmg just to use unblockable RF.

    Like I said, 10 seconds "minimum." There's no internal cooldown for Unstoppable union so it's entirely possible to use it every ten seconds. While it may not be practical to do that, it is entirely possible, and still way too short for 4 seconds of unblockables tied to traits and not utilities.

    I've played Sic 'Em sniper to test and it's not only possible, but rather easy to wait out beastmode's CD once, twice, or as many times as you need through movement skills, stealth, and GS weapon abilities. Even then; you get a further flat stat boost in Beatmode if you decide to stay merged, and like you just said it isn't practical to spam unstoppable union. You're completely right, it isn't practical, because most every class isn't capable of spamming blocks and the extra power and fero in beast mode makes that 82% damage multiplier even more rewarding; to which, you don't even need unstoppable union to benefit from. It's like giving someone a yacht when they ask for ice cream.

    Ehh I can't really agree with the last point. Slb gets the dmg mods because the pet is gone while merged, which before pof was taken into account when balancing ranger weapon skills. The stat bonus from slb is to make up for the loss of the pet. (Not to mention that a lot of pets have terrible AI that can hardly land any dmg... Except for smokescale and birds, but they are squishy.)

  • Twilight Tempest.7584Twilight Tempest.7584 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 4, 2019

    @bigo.9037 said:

    @Multicolorhipster.9751 said:

    @bigo.9037 said:
    You're wrong about 2 things ranger related.
    1. even if you wanted to spam unblockable, it's not viable. You merge, got 4 seconds. You wanna use some of your beast abilities before you unmerge again so you gotta wait a bit. Then AFTER you unmerge (when your weapon dmg is back to normal) you wait 10 seconds before you can do it again. Realistically, if you want to spam unblockable reasonably it's probably more like 4s/15-20s.

    1. What are you talking about with blocks? You mean Unstoppable Union? Yea you usually have to dodge it. But in a real fight you can't always wait that long without taking dmg just to use unblockable RF.

    Like I said, 10 seconds "minimum." There's no internal cooldown for Unstoppable union so it's entirely possible to use it every ten seconds. While it may not be practical to do that, it is entirely possible, and still way too short for 4 seconds of unblockables tied to traits and not utilities.

    I've played Sic 'Em sniper to test and it's not only possible, but rather easy to wait out beastmode's CD once, twice, or as many times as you need through movement skills, stealth, and GS weapon abilities. Even then; you get a further flat stat boost in Beatmode if you decide to stay merged, and like you just said it isn't practical to spam unstoppable union. You're completely right, it isn't practical, because most every class isn't capable of spamming blocks and the extra power and fero in beast mode makes that 82% damage multiplier even more rewarding; to which, you don't even need unstoppable union to benefit from. It's like giving someone a yacht when they ask for ice cream.

    Ehh I can't really agree with the last point. Slb gets the dmg mods because the pet is gone while merged, which before pof was taken into account when balancing ranger weapon skills. The stat bonus from slb is to make up for the loss of the pet. (Not to mention that a lot of pets have terrible AI that can hardly land any dmg... Except for smokescale and birds, but they are squishy.)

    What kind of a sacrifice is that if the SLB makes much better use of said "terrible AI" pet's stats anyhow? On the one hand you guys say "our pets are fine because they're squishy, bumbling AIs that can hardly land hits." Then you justify inheriting the full force of their stats on the grounds you're giving up your oh-so-valuable AI pet. Which is it?

  • @Twilight Tempest.7584 said:
    You're right. The build has been around for a while, and it, along with other SLB builds have been broken all this time. What's changed? The fact that other formerly broken PoF specs like the notorious condi-mirage, all mesmer profession builds in fact, all thieves (most recently Daredevil), Scourge, and even briefly boosted HoT specs like Berserker and Druid have all been toned down in the time SLB has gotten a free ride, going balance update after balance update virtually untouched. That's what's changed.

    >

    In other words, while several things may have been overperforming right after PoF launched, the more things that have gotten toned down since then, the more the things that have not been hit (SLB, Holo, SB) stand out. Not that perplexing a concept I think.

    What if the skill/combo is what's behind the 1-shot burst? Isn't it better to focus on the problem mechanic, or would you prefer nerfs to the whole class? Because that has happened. To the entire Mesmer profession. I'm not saying that should happen to other professions too, but if you want it, there is precedent for it. Anyhow, if you don't think 1-shot bursts deserve attention then I think Deadeyes, 1-Shot Chronos, and even former backstab thieves would like to have a word with you.

    I never claimed that sicem wasnt broken or in need of a nerf. I was merely stating that people often jump on the nerf bandwagon complaining about a specific build when the problem with balance and overpowered specs is rarely just due to specific skill numbers. The few situations where this was the case would be berserker arc divider damage, or scrapper bulwark gyro barrier.

    For soulbeast, the way the class is designed allows for stacking of multiple different damage modifiers to achieve ridiculous results. Tweaking the numbers on these modifiers is just a lazy solution, the class shouldnt have access to so many in the first place. Additionally there is the unblockable attacks issue which i think deserves a whole different discussion of its own.

    For condi mirage, the reason why they are overpowered has nothing to do with their damage, its the design of the class. They have access to stealth, target breaks, teleports, clones, evades while stunned, and torment/confusion pressure among other things. Without even considering damage numbers you can see that this kind of toolkit is overpowered. People still complained even after every nerf because the fundamental issue of why mirage is op was never addressed.

    For deadeye, it should be obvious that any class with perma stealth, very good mobility, and extremely high burst damage would be overpowered. Even though deadeye isnt a popular class right now, it is still designed to be overpowered in many situations.

    I would think that most people would agree that playing against 1 shot builds is not very fun, since they offer little to no counter-play outside of "dodge the burst". All this being said, I do agree that soulbeast burst needs a nerf, but just tweaking damage numbers usually isnt the best solution.

    Please SLB mains, you'll really do yourself a solid by not pretending your class isn't currently overtuned and recognizing that it deserves at least some of the toning down other specs have already gotten. Or you can keep deluding yourselves that people are just crying because they die to your spec and not because something about it is broken. Your choice.

    Not sure if this was directed at me, but ranger is my least played class in pvp and wvw.

  • bigo.9037bigo.9037 Member ✭✭✭

    @Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

    @bigo.9037 said:

    @Multicolorhipster.9751 said:

    @bigo.9037 said:
    You're wrong about 2 things ranger related.
    1. even if you wanted to spam unblockable, it's not viable. You merge, got 4 seconds. You wanna use some of your beast abilities before you unmerge again so you gotta wait a bit. Then AFTER you unmerge (when your weapon dmg is back to normal) you wait 10 seconds before you can do it again. Realistically, if you want to spam unblockable reasonably it's probably more like 4s/15-20s.

    1. What are you talking about with blocks? You mean Unstoppable Union? Yea you usually have to dodge it. But in a real fight you can't always wait that long without taking dmg just to use unblockable RF.

    Like I said, 10 seconds "minimum." There's no internal cooldown for Unstoppable union so it's entirely possible to use it every ten seconds. While it may not be practical to do that, it is entirely possible, and still way too short for 4 seconds of unblockables tied to traits and not utilities.

    I've played Sic 'Em sniper to test and it's not only possible, but rather easy to wait out beastmode's CD once, twice, or as many times as you need through movement skills, stealth, and GS weapon abilities. Even then; you get a further flat stat boost in Beatmode if you decide to stay merged, and like you just said it isn't practical to spam unstoppable union. You're completely right, it isn't practical, because most every class isn't capable of spamming blocks and the extra power and fero in beast mode makes that 82% damage multiplier even more rewarding; to which, you don't even need unstoppable union to benefit from. It's like giving someone a yacht when they ask for ice cream.

    Ehh I can't really agree with the last point. Slb gets the dmg mods because the pet is gone while merged, which before pof was taken into account when balancing ranger weapon skills. The stat bonus from slb is to make up for the loss of the pet. (Not to mention that a lot of pets have terrible AI that can hardly land any dmg... Except for smokescale and birds, but they are squishy.)

    What kind of a sacrifice is that if the SLB makes much better use of said "terrible AI" pet's stats anyhow? On the one hand you guys say "our pets are fine because they're squishy, bumbling AIs that can hardly land hits." Then you justify inheriting the full force of their stats on the grounds you're giving up your oh-so-valuable AI pet. Which is it?

    Lol. Yea, give me the stats any day. Why do you think ppl were excited about slb? Because they wouldn't have to deal with the bad AI anymore that you just can't rely on.

    Unmerged, pets are there. Can be unreliable at times, but they can deal some dmg. Your stats are "normal".

    Merge, no more unreliable pet dmg, but you get extra stats to compensate.

  • @Paradoxoglanis.1904 said:

    @Twilight Tempest.7584 said:
    You're right. The build has been around for a while, and it, along with other SLB builds have been broken all this time. What's changed? The fact that other formerly broken PoF specs like the notorious condi-mirage, all mesmer profession builds in fact, all thieves (most recently Daredevil), Scourge, and even briefly boosted HoT specs like Berserker and Druid have all been toned down in the time SLB has gotten a free ride, going balance update after balance update virtually untouched. That's what's changed.

    >

    In other words, while several things may have been overperforming right after PoF launched, the more things that have gotten toned down since then, the more the things that have not been hit (SLB, Holo, SB) stand out. Not that perplexing a concept I think.

    What if the skill/combo is what's behind the 1-shot burst? Isn't it better to focus on the problem mechanic, or would you prefer nerfs to the whole class? Because that has happened. To the entire Mesmer profession. I'm not saying that should happen to other professions too, but if you want it, there is precedent for it. Anyhow, if you don't think 1-shot bursts deserve attention then I think Deadeyes, 1-Shot Chronos, and even former backstab thieves would like to have a word with you.

    I never claimed that sicem wasnt broken or in need of a nerf. I was merely stating that people often jump on the nerf bandwagon complaining about a specific build when the problem with balance and overpowered specs is rarely just due to specific skill numbers. The few situations where this was the case would be berserker arc divider damage, or scrapper bulwark gyro barrier.

    Ok then. Because based on your opening statement below, it seemed like you were generally delegitimizing recent calls for SLB nerfs as sudden and conveniently timed, and suggesting SLB bursts are fine (by comparing to FA Weaver).

    @Paradoxoglanis.1904 said:
    The soulbeast sicem lb build has been around for a very long time, kind of interesting that people suddenly start crying for nerf once a build becomes more popular. What is next, FA weaver burst being too high?

    For soulbeast, the way the class is designed allows for stacking of multiple different damage modifiers to achieve ridiculous results. Tweaking the numbers on these modifiers is just a lazy solution, the class shouldnt have access to so many in the first place. Additionally there is the unblockable attacks issue which i think deserves a whole different discussion of its own.

    Agree. But unfortunately Anet apparently has a less-than-stellar track record of reworking skills/traits (Phantasm rework anyone?). Lazy numbers tweaks, like what they largely (over-)did to the rest of Mesmer and its elites, may be all we can hope for to at least bring overtuned things back down to earth.

    As has been said repeatedly, the problem with SLB is out-of-control damage multipliers (of which Sic 'Em is one), plus too much unblockable (Unstoppable Union) resulting in astronomical damage potential on top of an already very sustainy spec.

    I also agree with pretty much everything else you said.

    Please SLB mains, you'll really do yourself a solid by not pretending your class isn't currently overtuned and recognizing that it deserves at least some of the toning down other specs have already gotten. Or you can keep deluding yourselves that people are just crying because they die to your spec and not because something about it is broken. Your choice.

    Not sure if this was directed at me, but ranger is my least played class in pvp and wvw.

    If you're not a delusional SLB main or apologist for them, then no. :)

  • bigo.9037bigo.9037 Member ✭✭✭

    @Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

    @bigo.9037 said:

    @Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

    @bigo.9037 said:

    @Multicolorhipster.9751 said:

    @bigo.9037 said:
    You're wrong about 2 things ranger related.
    1. even if you wanted to spam unblockable, it's not viable. You merge, got 4 seconds. You wanna use some of your beast abilities before you unmerge again so you gotta wait a bit. Then AFTER you unmerge (when your weapon dmg is back to normal) you wait 10 seconds before you can do it again. Realistically, if you want to spam unblockable reasonably it's probably more like 4s/15-20s.

    1. What are you talking about with blocks? You mean Unstoppable Union? Yea you usually have to dodge it. But in a real fight you can't always wait that long without taking dmg just to use unblockable RF.

    Like I said, 10 seconds "minimum." There's no internal cooldown for Unstoppable union so it's entirely possible to use it every ten seconds. While it may not be practical to do that, it is entirely possible, and still way too short for 4 seconds of unblockables tied to traits and not utilities.

    I've played Sic 'Em sniper to test and it's not only possible, but rather easy to wait out beastmode's CD once, twice, or as many times as you need through movement skills, stealth, and GS weapon abilities. Even then; you get a further flat stat boost in Beatmode if you decide to stay merged, and like you just said it isn't practical to spam unstoppable union. You're completely right, it isn't practical, because most every class isn't capable of spamming blocks and the extra power and fero in beast mode makes that 82% damage multiplier even more rewarding; to which, you don't even need unstoppable union to benefit from. It's like giving someone a yacht when they ask for ice cream.

    Ehh I can't really agree with the last point. Slb gets the dmg mods because the pet is gone while merged, which before pof was taken into account when balancing ranger weapon skills. The stat bonus from slb is to make up for the loss of the pet. (Not to mention that a lot of pets have terrible AI that can hardly land any dmg... Except for smokescale and birds, but they are squishy.)

    What kind of a sacrifice is that if the SLB makes much better use of said "terrible AI" pet's stats anyhow? On the one hand you guys say "our pets are fine because they're squishy, bumbling AIs that can hardly land hits." Then you justify inheriting the full force of their stats on the grounds you're giving up your oh-so-valuable AI pet. Which is it?

    Lol. Yea, give me the stats any day. Why do you think ppl were excited about slb? Because they wouldn't have to deal with the bad AI anymore that you just can't rely on.

    Unmerged, pets are there. Can be unreliable at times, but they can deal some dmg. Your stats are "normal".

    Merge, no more unreliable pet dmg, but you get extra stats to compensate.

    Sounds like a perk without a trade-off. Remember what Anet recently said about trade-offs? :wink:

    It WOULD be without a trade-off if it wasn't for the fact that the pets are terrible at landing any dmg at all with the only exception being smokescales evade thingy. Otherwise pets are basically only good for their f2 and nothing else.

  • Klypto.1703Klypto.1703 Member ✭✭✭

    Yeah these kinds of players won't be happy until every player is using a stick from SAB as their only ability.

  • Thornwolf.9721Thornwolf.9721 Member ✭✭✭

    @bigo.9037 said:

    @Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

    @bigo.9037 said:

    @Multicolorhipster.9751 said:

    @bigo.9037 said:
    You're wrong about 2 things ranger related.
    1. even if you wanted to spam unblockable, it's not viable. You merge, got 4 seconds. You wanna use some of your beast abilities before you unmerge again so you gotta wait a bit. Then AFTER you unmerge (when your weapon dmg is back to normal) you wait 10 seconds before you can do it again. Realistically, if you want to spam unblockable reasonably it's probably more like 4s/15-20s.

    1. What are you talking about with blocks? You mean Unstoppable Union? Yea you usually have to dodge it. But in a real fight you can't always wait that long without taking dmg just to use unblockable RF.

    Like I said, 10 seconds "minimum." There's no internal cooldown for Unstoppable union so it's entirely possible to use it every ten seconds. While it may not be practical to do that, it is entirely possible, and still way too short for 4 seconds of unblockables tied to traits and not utilities.

    I've played Sic 'Em sniper to test and it's not only possible, but rather easy to wait out beastmode's CD once, twice, or as many times as you need through movement skills, stealth, and GS weapon abilities. Even then; you get a further flat stat boost in Beatmode if you decide to stay merged, and like you just said it isn't practical to spam unstoppable union. You're completely right, it isn't practical, because most every class isn't capable of spamming blocks and the extra power and fero in beast mode makes that 82% damage multiplier even more rewarding; to which, you don't even need unstoppable union to benefit from. It's like giving someone a yacht when they ask for ice cream.

    Ehh I can't really agree with the last point. Slb gets the dmg mods because the pet is gone while merged, which before pof was taken into account when balancing ranger weapon skills. The stat bonus from slb is to make up for the loss of the pet. (Not to mention that a lot of pets have terrible AI that can hardly land any dmg... Except for smokescale and birds, but they are squishy.)

    What kind of a sacrifice is that if the SLB makes much better use of said "terrible AI" pet's stats anyhow? On the one hand you guys say "our pets are fine because they're squishy, bumbling AIs that can hardly land hits." Then you justify inheriting the full force of their stats on the grounds you're giving up your oh-so-valuable AI pet. Which is it?

    Lol. Yea, give me the stats any day. Why do you think ppl were excited about slb? Because they wouldn't have to deal with the bad AI anymore that you just can't rely on.

    Unmerged, pets are there. Can be unreliable at times, but they can deal some dmg. Your stats are "normal".

    Merge, no more unreliable pet dmg, but you get extra stats to compensate.

    Frankly I hate soul beast and stand by the "Ranger has a pet" Mantra, which is what the class was designed around and should of stayed designed around. You don't like it thief and engie are right there for you and no one should have to make a class or spec to cater to the screaming masses. (Suggestions are fine sure, but if ranger didn't have a pet Id never of made one.) The one thing im worried about is that ranger, core ranger is going to suffer for the over-preforming and when the nerf-bat comes down it won't be on soul-beast but rather the ranger as a whole and as a class. Which will make it either unplayably weak; Or just unfun to run around with since it won't be able to stand up properly on its own which with soul-beast here is kind of already the case. (Soulbeast feels like a straight upgrade to core, which is not how it should feel at all.)

  • @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @bigo.9037 said:

    @Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

    @bigo.9037 said:

    @Multicolorhipster.9751 said:

    @bigo.9037 said:
    You're wrong about 2 things ranger related.
    1. even if you wanted to spam unblockable, it's not viable. You merge, got 4 seconds. You wanna use some of your beast abilities before you unmerge again so you gotta wait a bit. Then AFTER you unmerge (when your weapon dmg is back to normal) you wait 10 seconds before you can do it again. Realistically, if you want to spam unblockable reasonably it's probably more like 4s/15-20s.

    1. What are you talking about with blocks? You mean Unstoppable Union? Yea you usually have to dodge it. But in a real fight you can't always wait that long without taking dmg just to use unblockable RF.

    Like I said, 10 seconds "minimum." There's no internal cooldown for Unstoppable union so it's entirely possible to use it every ten seconds. While it may not be practical to do that, it is entirely possible, and still way too short for 4 seconds of unblockables tied to traits and not utilities.

    I've played Sic 'Em sniper to test and it's not only possible, but rather easy to wait out beastmode's CD once, twice, or as many times as you need through movement skills, stealth, and GS weapon abilities. Even then; you get a further flat stat boost in Beatmode if you decide to stay merged, and like you just said it isn't practical to spam unstoppable union. You're completely right, it isn't practical, because most every class isn't capable of spamming blocks and the extra power and fero in beast mode makes that 82% damage multiplier even more rewarding; to which, you don't even need unstoppable union to benefit from. It's like giving someone a yacht when they ask for ice cream.

    Ehh I can't really agree with the last point. Slb gets the dmg mods because the pet is gone while merged, which before pof was taken into account when balancing ranger weapon skills. The stat bonus from slb is to make up for the loss of the pet. (Not to mention that a lot of pets have terrible AI that can hardly land any dmg... Except for smokescale and birds, but they are squishy.)

    What kind of a sacrifice is that if the SLB makes much better use of said "terrible AI" pet's stats anyhow? On the one hand you guys say "our pets are fine because they're squishy, bumbling AIs that can hardly land hits." Then you justify inheriting the full force of their stats on the grounds you're giving up your oh-so-valuable AI pet. Which is it?

    Lol. Yea, give me the stats any day. Why do you think ppl were excited about slb? Because they wouldn't have to deal with the bad AI anymore that you just can't rely on.

    Unmerged, pets are there. Can be unreliable at times, but they can deal some dmg. Your stats are "normal".

    Merge, no more unreliable pet dmg, but you get extra stats to compensate.

    Frankly I hate soul beast and stand by the "Ranger has a pet" Mantra, which is what the class was designed around and should of stayed designed around. You don't like it thief and engie are right there for you and no one should have to make a class or spec to cater to the screaming masses. (Suggestions are fine sure, but if ranger didn't have a pet Id never of made one.) The one thing im worried about is that ranger, core ranger is going to suffer for the over-preforming and when the nerf-bat comes down it won't be on soul-beast but rather the ranger as a whole and as a class. Which will make it either unplayably weak; Or just unfun to run around with since it won't be able to stand up properly on its own which with soul-beast here is kind of already the case. (Soulbeast feels like a straight upgrade to core, which is not how it should feel at all.)

    Pretty much the story for every core spec except S/D thief and maybe Guardian, I'm afraid.

    Unfortunately, if the way Anet nerfed core Mesmer, Chrono, and Mirage to get at Chrono and Mirage is any indication, your poor Ranger isn't safe. Not how it should be, but that's what we've seen.

    I'm sure some SLB mains would hate it, but I've seen it suggested that SLB's tradeoff should be only having one pet. Thematically, they're so attuned to their one pet they're able to merge with it and share strengths. Because right now, they sure don't have any tradeoffs with core Ranger.

  • Thornwolf.9721Thornwolf.9721 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 5, 2019

    @Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @bigo.9037 said:

    @Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

    @bigo.9037 said:

    @Multicolorhipster.9751 said:

    @bigo.9037 said:
    You're wrong about 2 things ranger related.
    1. even if you wanted to spam unblockable, it's not viable. You merge, got 4 seconds. You wanna use some of your beast abilities before you unmerge again so you gotta wait a bit. Then AFTER you unmerge (when your weapon dmg is back to normal) you wait 10 seconds before you can do it again. Realistically, if you want to spam unblockable reasonably it's probably more like 4s/15-20s.

    1. What are you talking about with blocks? You mean Unstoppable Union? Yea you usually have to dodge it. But in a real fight you can't always wait that long without taking dmg just to use unblockable RF.

    Like I said, 10 seconds "minimum." There's no internal cooldown for Unstoppable union so it's entirely possible to use it every ten seconds. While it may not be practical to do that, it is entirely possible, and still way too short for 4 seconds of unblockables tied to traits and not utilities.

    I've played Sic 'Em sniper to test and it's not only possible, but rather easy to wait out beastmode's CD once, twice, or as many times as you need through movement skills, stealth, and GS weapon abilities. Even then; you get a further flat stat boost in Beatmode if you decide to stay merged, and like you just said it isn't practical to spam unstoppable union. You're completely right, it isn't practical, because most every class isn't capable of spamming blocks and the extra power and fero in beast mode makes that 82% damage multiplier even more rewarding; to which, you don't even need unstoppable union to benefit from. It's like giving someone a yacht when they ask for ice cream.

    Ehh I can't really agree with the last point. Slb gets the dmg mods because the pet is gone while merged, which before pof was taken into account when balancing ranger weapon skills. The stat bonus from slb is to make up for the loss of the pet. (Not to mention that a lot of pets have terrible AI that can hardly land any dmg... Except for smokescale and birds, but they are squishy.)

    What kind of a sacrifice is that if the SLB makes much better use of said "terrible AI" pet's stats anyhow? On the one hand you guys say "our pets are fine because they're squishy, bumbling AIs that can hardly land hits." Then you justify inheriting the full force of their stats on the grounds you're giving up your oh-so-valuable AI pet. Which is it?

    Lol. Yea, give me the stats any day. Why do you think ppl were excited about slb? Because they wouldn't have to deal with the bad AI anymore that you just can't rely on.

    Unmerged, pets are there. Can be unreliable at times, but they can deal some dmg. Your stats are "normal".

    Merge, no more unreliable pet dmg, but you get extra stats to compensate.

    Frankly I hate soul beast and stand by the "Ranger has a pet" Mantra, which is what the class was designed around and should of stayed designed around. You don't like it thief and engie are right there for you and no one should have to make a class or spec to cater to the screaming masses. (Suggestions are fine sure, but if ranger didn't have a pet Id never of made one.) The one thing im worried about is that ranger, core ranger is going to suffer for the over-preforming and when the nerf-bat comes down it won't be on soul-beast but rather the ranger as a whole and as a class. Which will make it either unplayably weak; Or just unfun to run around with since it won't be able to stand up properly on its own which with soul-beast here is kind of already the case. (Soulbeast feels like a straight upgrade to core, which is not how it should feel at all.)

    Pretty much the story for every core spec except S/D thief and maybe Guardian, I'm afraid.

    Unfortunately, if the way Anet nerfed core Mesmer, Chrono, and Mirage to get at Chrono and Mirage is any indication, your poor Ranger isn't safe. Not how it should be, but that's what we've seen.

    I'm sure some SLB mains would hate it, but I've seen it suggested that SLB's tradeoff should be only having one pet. Thematically, they're so attuned to their one pet they're able to merge with it and share strengths. Because right now, they sure don't have any tradeoffs with core Ranger.

    Im affraid revenant (My main) isn't far behind either with all the complaints of Herald and the shenanigans it can pull off. Nature of the beast; When it happens Ill just dip until the next release come back and do what I did between Core and HoT when they gutted some of the stuff I liked. That's all we can do and I Feel for core messmers I Really do, it's not them but the spec that was brought in. Yet the core suffers; Which I guess is just how it works because its easier to destroy the whole class than address the failings of the elite spec and its balance.

    I agree with you, or perhaps make it so they don't have a pet at all and can't swap. They are stuck in beast mode and they simply get minor amps to their damage (Nothing like now) and their skills simply act like the utilities of every other class. Thats what all these SLB mains wanted was a pet-less ranger so limit them to one pets "Soul" but they can't demerge and are stuck in beast-mode and shave down their modifiers and utility at least then maybe we wouldn't be so worried about Core.

  • Twilight Tempest.7584Twilight Tempest.7584 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 5, 2019

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @bigo.9037 said:

    @Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

    @bigo.9037 said:

    @Multicolorhipster.9751 said:

    @bigo.9037 said:
    You're wrong about 2 things ranger related.
    1. even if you wanted to spam unblockable, it's not viable. You merge, got 4 seconds. You wanna use some of your beast abilities before you unmerge again so you gotta wait a bit. Then AFTER you unmerge (when your weapon dmg is back to normal) you wait 10 seconds before you can do it again. Realistically, if you want to spam unblockable reasonably it's probably more like 4s/15-20s.

    1. What are you talking about with blocks? You mean Unstoppable Union? Yea you usually have to dodge it. But in a real fight you can't always wait that long without taking dmg just to use unblockable RF.

    Like I said, 10 seconds "minimum." There's no internal cooldown for Unstoppable union so it's entirely possible to use it every ten seconds. While it may not be practical to do that, it is entirely possible, and still way too short for 4 seconds of unblockables tied to traits and not utilities.

    I've played Sic 'Em sniper to test and it's not only possible, but rather easy to wait out beastmode's CD once, twice, or as many times as you need through movement skills, stealth, and GS weapon abilities. Even then; you get a further flat stat boost in Beatmode if you decide to stay merged, and like you just said it isn't practical to spam unstoppable union. You're completely right, it isn't practical, because most every class isn't capable of spamming blocks and the extra power and fero in beast mode makes that 82% damage multiplier even more rewarding; to which, you don't even need unstoppable union to benefit from. It's like giving someone a yacht when they ask for ice cream.

    Ehh I can't really agree with the last point. Slb gets the dmg mods because the pet is gone while merged, which before pof was taken into account when balancing ranger weapon skills. The stat bonus from slb is to make up for the loss of the pet. (Not to mention that a lot of pets have terrible AI that can hardly land any dmg... Except for smokescale and birds, but they are squishy.)

    What kind of a sacrifice is that if the SLB makes much better use of said "terrible AI" pet's stats anyhow? On the one hand you guys say "our pets are fine because they're squishy, bumbling AIs that can hardly land hits." Then you justify inheriting the full force of their stats on the grounds you're giving up your oh-so-valuable AI pet. Which is it?

    Lol. Yea, give me the stats any day. Why do you think ppl were excited about slb? Because they wouldn't have to deal with the bad AI anymore that you just can't rely on.

    Unmerged, pets are there. Can be unreliable at times, but they can deal some dmg. Your stats are "normal".

    Merge, no more unreliable pet dmg, but you get extra stats to compensate.

    Frankly I hate soul beast and stand by the "Ranger has a pet" Mantra, which is what the class was designed around and should of stayed designed around. You don't like it thief and engie are right there for you and no one should have to make a class or spec to cater to the screaming masses. (Suggestions are fine sure, but if ranger didn't have a pet Id never of made one.) The one thing im worried about is that ranger, core ranger is going to suffer for the over-preforming and when the nerf-bat comes down it won't be on soul-beast but rather the ranger as a whole and as a class. Which will make it either unplayably weak; Or just unfun to run around with since it won't be able to stand up properly on its own which with soul-beast here is kind of already the case. (Soulbeast feels like a straight upgrade to core, which is not how it should feel at all.)

    Pretty much the story for every core spec except S/D thief and maybe Guardian, I'm afraid.

    Unfortunately, if the way Anet nerfed core Mesmer, Chrono, and Mirage to get at Chrono and Mirage is any indication, your poor Ranger isn't safe. Not how it should be, but that's what we've seen.

    I'm sure some SLB mains would hate it, but I've seen it suggested that SLB's tradeoff should be only having one pet. Thematically, they're so attuned to their one pet they're able to merge with it and share strengths. Because right now, they sure don't have any tradeoffs with core Ranger.

    Im affraid revenant (My main) isn't far behind either with all the complaints of Herald and the shenanigans it can pull off.

    I hear you. I play my core rev (though I could unlock an e-spec) daily in PvE and enjoy it. Fingers crossed that boosting core a little with Ancient Echo as a "trade off" to the elites is a sign they're taking a measured approach to core Rev.

    Edit: Though the nerfs to sword and Invocation traits certainly hit core. :frown:

  • Thornwolf.9721Thornwolf.9721 Member ✭✭✭

    @Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @bigo.9037 said:

    @Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

    @bigo.9037 said:

    @Multicolorhipster.9751 said:

    @bigo.9037 said:
    You're wrong about 2 things ranger related.
    1. even if you wanted to spam unblockable, it's not viable. You merge, got 4 seconds. You wanna use some of your beast abilities before you unmerge again so you gotta wait a bit. Then AFTER you unmerge (when your weapon dmg is back to normal) you wait 10 seconds before you can do it again. Realistically, if you want to spam unblockable reasonably it's probably more like 4s/15-20s.

    1. What are you talking about with blocks? You mean Unstoppable Union? Yea you usually have to dodge it. But in a real fight you can't always wait that long without taking dmg just to use unblockable RF.

    Like I said, 10 seconds "minimum." There's no internal cooldown for Unstoppable union so it's entirely possible to use it every ten seconds. While it may not be practical to do that, it is entirely possible, and still way too short for 4 seconds of unblockables tied to traits and not utilities.

    I've played Sic 'Em sniper to test and it's not only possible, but rather easy to wait out beastmode's CD once, twice, or as many times as you need through movement skills, stealth, and GS weapon abilities. Even then; you get a further flat stat boost in Beatmode if you decide to stay merged, and like you just said it isn't practical to spam unstoppable union. You're completely right, it isn't practical, because most every class isn't capable of spamming blocks and the extra power and fero in beast mode makes that 82% damage multiplier even more rewarding; to which, you don't even need unstoppable union to benefit from. It's like giving someone a yacht when they ask for ice cream.

    Ehh I can't really agree with the last point. Slb gets the dmg mods because the pet is gone while merged, which before pof was taken into account when balancing ranger weapon skills. The stat bonus from slb is to make up for the loss of the pet. (Not to mention that a lot of pets have terrible AI that can hardly land any dmg... Except for smokescale and birds, but they are squishy.)

    What kind of a sacrifice is that if the SLB makes much better use of said "terrible AI" pet's stats anyhow? On the one hand you guys say "our pets are fine because they're squishy, bumbling AIs that can hardly land hits." Then you justify inheriting the full force of their stats on the grounds you're giving up your oh-so-valuable AI pet. Which is it?

    Lol. Yea, give me the stats any day. Why do you think ppl were excited about slb? Because they wouldn't have to deal with the bad AI anymore that you just can't rely on.

    Unmerged, pets are there. Can be unreliable at times, but they can deal some dmg. Your stats are "normal".

    Merge, no more unreliable pet dmg, but you get extra stats to compensate.

    Frankly I hate soul beast and stand by the "Ranger has a pet" Mantra, which is what the class was designed around and should of stayed designed around. You don't like it thief and engie are right there for you and no one should have to make a class or spec to cater to the screaming masses. (Suggestions are fine sure, but if ranger didn't have a pet Id never of made one.) The one thing im worried about is that ranger, core ranger is going to suffer for the over-preforming and when the nerf-bat comes down it won't be on soul-beast but rather the ranger as a whole and as a class. Which will make it either unplayably weak; Or just unfun to run around with since it won't be able to stand up properly on its own which with soul-beast here is kind of already the case. (Soulbeast feels like a straight upgrade to core, which is not how it should feel at all.)

    Pretty much the story for every core spec except S/D thief and maybe Guardian, I'm afraid.

    Unfortunately, if the way Anet nerfed core Mesmer, Chrono, and Mirage to get at Chrono and Mirage is any indication, your poor Ranger isn't safe. Not how it should be, but that's what we've seen.

    I'm sure some SLB mains would hate it, but I've seen it suggested that SLB's tradeoff should be only having one pet. Thematically, they're so attuned to their one pet they're able to merge with it and share strengths. Because right now, they sure don't have any tradeoffs with core Ranger.

    Im affraid revenant (My main) isn't far behind either with all the complaints of Herald and the shenanigans it can pull off.

    I hear you. I play my core rev (though I could unlock an e-spec) daily in PvE and enjoy it. Fingers crossed that boosting core a little with Ancient Echo as a "trade off" to the elites is a sign they're taking a measured approach to core Rev.

    We can only hope, but I'd like for once to have faith in them if at all possible lol

  • bOTEB.1573bOTEB.1573 Member ✭✭✭✭

    My experience while playing Soulbeast:

    Every profession keep evading my attacks, using invulnerable skills or just taking advantage of LOS. As a Sic 'Em ranger I need to land all these skills (WI, Maul etc) in ~10 sec in order to take the kill. Otherwise I have to kite and run with little to no condi clean until all my CD reset. Most of the time I am dead or alive and have a chance to try again if the enemy isn't very strong. The problem is that all the skills are super easy to spot.

    Let's be real here, shall we? How can you even compare this niche build (which is bad in a lot of things) to the more viable builds like FBs, Necros, Heralds, Spellbreakers, Holos, Scrappers? No way we can compete there! If it was so powerful, wouldn't everyone play it? Most of you are saying that Holos and SLBs are the most OP and overtuned builds, but where are all the SLBs, up there? I mean if a profession/build is stronger than another profession/build people will play it. Where are the Soulbeasts?

    Wishlist:
    Everything that kills me should be nerfed
    Remove all time gates - I play more than some people yet I receive the same rewards per day/week (PvP/WvW tickets etc)
    ANET developments/events and everything else should be in a schedule with the time I play

  • Solori.6025Solori.6025 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @bOTEB.1573 said:
    My experience while playing Soulbeast:

    Every profession keep evading my attacks, using invulnerable skills or just taking advantage of LOS. As a Sic 'Em ranger I need to land all these skills (WI, Maul etc) in ~10 sec in order to take the kill. Otherwise I have to kite and run with little to no condi clean until all my CD reset. Most of the time I am dead or alive and have a chance to try again if the enemy isn't very strong. The problem is that all the skills are super easy to spot.

    Let's be real here, shall we? How can you even compare this niche build (which is bad in a lot of things) to the more viable builds like FBs, Necros, Heralds, Spellbreakers, Holos, Scrappers? No way we can compete there! If it was so powerful, wouldn't everyone play it? Most of you are saying that Holos and SLBs are the most OP and overtuned builds, but where are all the SLBs, up there? I mean if a profession/build is stronger than another profession/build people will play it. Where are the Soulbeasts?

    ....it's like.....2018 all over again......except it's ranger now...

    Tingle my stingleberry

  • @bOTEB.1573 said:
    Most of you are saying that Holos and SLBs are the most OP and overtuned builds, but where are all the SLBs, up there? I mean if a profession/build is stronger than another profession/build people will play it. Where are the Soulbeasts?

    Here are some in last season's top 50 according to an authoritative SLB main (note that they aren't saying these are the only ones):

    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/899699/#Comment_899699

    Also 1, maybe 2 Sic 'Em SLB won the recent NA monthly:

    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/940254/#Comment_940254

    Just because your spec doesn't dominate the top of the leaderboard (but is still adequately represented) does not categorically mean it's free of issues. When will you stop with this tired and fallacious argument that was also made in defense of condi mirage (when there actually were but 1 or 2 in the top 100)?

  • Faux Play.6104Faux Play.6104 Member ✭✭✭

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @Crab Fear.1624 said:
    So soulbeast mains don't think the class is overtuned? Who thinks it is overtuned?

    Those who have not yet deciphered and put to use the secret knowledge hidden in this meme.

    The summary is:. Hi I play WvW I die afk auto running back to Zerg from rangers. Plz nerf.

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 5, 2019

    @Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

    @bOTEB.1573 said:
    Most of you are saying that Holos and SLBs are the most OP and overtuned builds, but where are all the SLBs, up there? I mean if a profession/build is stronger than another profession/build people will play it. Where are the Soulbeasts?

    Here are some in last season's top 50 according to an authoritative SLB main (note that they aren't saying these are the only ones):

    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/899699/#Comment_899699

    Also 1, maybe 2 Sic 'Em SLB won the recent NA monthly:

    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/940254/#Comment_940254

    Just because your spec doesn't dominate the top of the leaderboard (but is still adequately represented) does not categorically mean it's free of issues. When will you stop with this tired and fallacious argument that was also made in defense of condi mirage (when there actually were but 1 or 2 in the top 100)?

    This^
    Wish people would stop using said class wasn't in top 10so its weak arguement,its a useless arguement. If a class has a op skill or burst that doesn't mean it automatically will be used in high ranks. The skill or burst could be avoidable by high skill players or is countable by a class or 2 that are commonly used in the meta at the time OR they build doesn't land enough to team play that conquest requires or doesnt synergize well with the common meta comps. Bin beast is a good side noder but sic em is less sustainable and requires being reliant on a burst that high skill players can play around. That does not mean that the burst does not do to much dps or that it not OP and more effective in other modes(wvw) ranger is literally the most common roamer or class in general in my wvw server and it's not because its zerger power lol. No one is saying slb is OP its sic em itself that's OP.

  • bOTEB.1573bOTEB.1573 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 5, 2019

    @Twilight Tempest.7584 said:
    When will you stop with this tired and fallacious argument that was also made in defense of condi mirage (when there actually were but 1 or 2 in the top 100)?

    When you stop with the absurd requests about unneccessery nerfs.

    How many Soulbeasts are in top 50, again? Lets compare them with the other builds.

    Wishlist:
    Everything that kills me should be nerfed
    Remove all time gates - I play more than some people yet I receive the same rewards per day/week (PvP/WvW tickets etc)
    ANET developments/events and everything else should be in a schedule with the time I play

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 5, 2019

    @bOTEB.1573 said:

    @Twilight Tempest.7584 said:
    When will you stop with this tired and fallacious argument that was also made in defense of condi mirage (when there actually were but 1 or 2 in the top 100)?

    When you stop with the absurd requests about unneccessery nerfs.

    How many Soulbeast are in top 50, again? Lets compare them with the other builds.

    Their necessary, I kno that's hard to accept about ur class. Soulbeast isn't OP sic em is. Druid needs buffs I will say that.

  • bOTEB.1573bOTEB.1573 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 5, 2019

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:
    Their necessary, I kno that's hard to accept about ur class. Soulbeast isn't OP sic em is. Druid needs buffs I will say that.

    It is not OP at all. Most high tier rangers don't even run with it, fact (because it is useless against skilled enemies) - they prefer more stun breaks and invulnerability. Lets not build our nerf suggestion strategies according to bronze/silver/gold tiers, where we can see a lot more playstyle flaws.

    Wishlist:
    Everything that kills me should be nerfed
    Remove all time gates - I play more than some people yet I receive the same rewards per day/week (PvP/WvW tickets etc)
    ANET developments/events and everything else should be in a schedule with the time I play

  • bOTEB.1573bOTEB.1573 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @mortrialus.3062 said:
    Mirage got it's damage gutted by 50% when it didn't even have representation in the top 10. Soulbeast has top 10 representation every season on NA.

    Sorry but your logic is wrong. There were/are more mirages than soulbeasts and just because your favorite profession has been nerfed a little (you got the same logic as the OP) doesn't mean everything else should be nerfed.

    Wishlist:
    Everything that kills me should be nerfed
    Remove all time gates - I play more than some people yet I receive the same rewards per day/week (PvP/WvW tickets etc)
    ANET developments/events and everything else should be in a schedule with the time I play

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @bOTEB.1573 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:
    Their necessary, I kno that's hard to accept about ur class. Soulbeast isn't OP sic em is. Druid needs buffs I will say that.

    It is not OP at all. Most high tier rangers don't even run with it, fact, (because it is useless against skilled enemies) - they prefer more stun breaks and invulnerability. Lets not build our nerf suggestion strategies according to bronze/silver/gold tiers, where we can see a lot more playstyle flaws.

    Again u can keep using the it's not in top ranks arguement but means little. Sic em may not be a top pic for high tier players,that means little. In wvw SIC EM builds are literally every other player u see because it's broken unblockable dps at such a range. Just because it's not a skill picked often in high tier due to there being more reliable options for THAT game mode that fill the purpose of the player doesnt make it not OP in other modes. Although I'm sure sic em is used in conquest regardless of u stating it isn't. That skill alone with the range would make a slb a decent +1 spec .

  • bOTEB.1573bOTEB.1573 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 5, 2019

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:
    Literally nothing more than a slb main defending their fav class lol. Slb burst will get nerfed, u might as well accept it. Slb isn't some special spec that will avoid it's broken burst getting hammered by the dreaded bat lol its avoided it surprisingly long as it is but its coming.

    Sorry to dissapoint you but it is not logical to hammer the SLB because its overall performance is bad to average. Sure, it works sometimes (mainly against afk/new/unskilled players) but the overall performance of the build is bad... Like not only in PvP... but everywhere. With the current PvP meta of FBs, Necros, Heralds, Spellbreakers, Holos, Scrappers, the SLB is just... extremely bad.
    Buuut... What can I say... Good luck with that, everyone has their wish, look my signature for example ;)

    Wishlist:
    Everything that kills me should be nerfed
    Remove all time gates - I play more than some people yet I receive the same rewards per day/week (PvP/WvW tickets etc)
    ANET developments/events and everything else should be in a schedule with the time I play

  • bigo.9037bigo.9037 Member ✭✭✭

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @bOTEB.1573 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:
    Their necessary, I kno that's hard to accept about ur class. Soulbeast isn't OP sic em is. Druid needs buffs I will say that.

    It is not OP at all. Most high tier rangers don't even run with it, fact, (because it is useless against skilled enemies) - they prefer more stun breaks and invulnerability. Lets not build our nerf suggestion strategies according to bronze/silver/gold tiers, where we can see a lot more playstyle flaws.

    Again u can keep using the it's not in top ranks arguement but means little. Sic em may not be a top pic for high tier players,that means little. In wvw SIC EM builds are literally every other player u see because it's broken unblockable dps at such a range. Just because it's not a skill picked often in high tier due to there being more reliable options for THAT game mode that fill the purpose of the player doesnt make it not OP in other modes. Although I'm sure sic em is used in conquest regardless of u stating it isn't. That skill alone with the range would make a slb a decent +1 spec .

    Firstly this is a pvp forum not wvw. Wvw perspective hardly mean anything here. Secondly, good players can easily deal with a sicem ranger if they are ready for it even in wvw. I killed many of them on my slb without using sicem. I've died a few times cus I wasn't ready, or straight up afk to sicem rangers. I've died more often to mesmers 1shotting me out of stealth. Talk about 0 counter play lol. But hey, that's my own fault for running around with squishy armor that has 0 toughness and low protection uptime.

    Again, gold tier players (pvp) and below... You are shooting yourself in the foot by wanting nerfs to classes you can't deal with .. the game will be dumbed down and no matter what 1 build will always be annoying or stronger than yours...

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @bOTEB.1573 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:
    Literally nothing more than a slb main defending their fav class lol. Slb burst will get nerfed, u might as well accept it. Slb isn't some special spec that will avoid it's broken burst getting hammered by the dreaded bat lol its avoided it surprisingly long as it is but its coming.

    Sorry to dissapoint you but it is not logical to hammer the SLB because its overall performance is bad to average. Sure, it works sometimes (mainly against afk/new/unskilled players) but the overall performance of the build is bad... Like not only in PvP... but everywhere. With the current PvP meta of FBs, Necros, Heralds, Spellbreakers, Holos, Scrappers, the SLB is just... extremely bad.
    Buuut... What can I say... Good luck with that, everyone has their wish, look my signature for example ;)

    Oh its completely logical to hammer sic em ( not slb)

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 5, 2019

    @bigo.9037 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @bOTEB.1573 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:
    Their necessary, I kno that's hard to accept about ur class. Soulbeast isn't OP sic em is. Druid needs buffs I will say that.

    It is not OP at all. Most high tier rangers don't even run with it, fact, (because it is useless against skilled enemies) - they prefer more stun breaks and invulnerability. Lets not build our nerf suggestion strategies according to bronze/silver/gold tiers, where we can see a lot more playstyle flaws.

    Again u can keep using the it's not in top ranks arguement but means little. Sic em may not be a top pic for high tier players,that means little. In wvw SIC EM builds are literally every other player u see because it's broken unblockable dps at such a range. Just because it's not a skill picked often in high tier due to there being more reliable options for THAT game mode that fill the purpose of the player doesnt make it not OP in other modes. Although I'm sure sic em is used in conquest regardless of u stating it isn't. That skill alone with the range would make a slb a decent +1 spec .

    Firstly this is a pvp forum not wvw. Wvw perspective hardly mean anything here. Secondly, good players can easily deal with a sicem ranger if they are ready for it even in wvw. I killed many of them on my slb without using sicem. I've died a few times cus I wasn't ready, or straight up afk to sicem rangers. I've died more often to mesmers 1shotting me out of stealth. Talk about 0 counter play lol. But hey, that's my own fault for running around with squishy armor that has 0 toughness and low protection uptime.

    Again, gold tier players (pvp) and below... You are shooting yourself in the foot by wanting nerfs to classes you can't deal with .. the game will be dumbed down and no matter what 1 build will always be annoying or stronger than yours...

    They dont balance classes just for conquest nor wvw so how a class effects one mode effects another. If a class is broken in wvw while not as broken in pvp scourge as example does not mean it's fine since it's ok in pvp conquest mode. Since balancing and changes to a class effect it in both modes discussing its balance in conquest also carries over to wvw no? That's why I included wvw as both are effected by changes and balance of classes in both have to be considered.

  • bOTEB.1573bOTEB.1573 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:
    They dont balance classes just for conquest

    Mmmm.... Yes they do.

    Wishlist:
    Everything that kills me should be nerfed
    Remove all time gates - I play more than some people yet I receive the same rewards per day/week (PvP/WvW tickets etc)
    ANET developments/events and everything else should be in a schedule with the time I play

  • bigo.9037bigo.9037 Member ✭✭✭

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @bigo.9037 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @bOTEB.1573 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:
    Their necessary, I kno that's hard to accept about ur class. Soulbeast isn't OP sic em is. Druid needs buffs I will say that.

    It is not OP at all. Most high tier rangers don't even run with it, fact, (because it is useless against skilled enemies) - they prefer more stun breaks and invulnerability. Lets not build our nerf suggestion strategies according to bronze/silver/gold tiers, where we can see a lot more playstyle flaws.

    Again u can keep using the it's not in top ranks arguement but means little. Sic em may not be a top pic for high tier players,that means little. In wvw SIC EM builds are literally every other player u see because it's broken unblockable dps at such a range. Just because it's not a skill picked often in high tier due to there being more reliable options for THAT game mode that fill the purpose of the player doesnt make it not OP in other modes. Although I'm sure sic em is used in conquest regardless of u stating it isn't. That skill alone with the range would make a slb a decent +1 spec .

    Firstly this is a pvp forum not wvw. Wvw perspective hardly mean anything here. Secondly, good players can easily deal with a sicem ranger if they are ready for it even in wvw. I killed many of them on my slb without using sicem. I've died a few times cus I wasn't ready, or straight up afk to sicem rangers. I've died more often to mesmers 1shotting me out of stealth. Talk about 0 counter play lol. But hey, that's my own fault for running around with squishy armor that has 0 toughness and low protection uptime.

    Again, gold tier players (pvp) and below... You are shooting yourself in the foot by wanting nerfs to classes you can't deal with .. the game will be dumbed down and no matter what 1 build will always be annoying or stronger than yours...

    They dont balance classes just for conquest nor wvw so how a class effects one mode effects another. If a class is broken in wvw while not as broken in pvp scourge as example does not mean it's fine since it's ok in pvp conquest mode. Since balancing and changes to a class effect it in both modes discussing its balance in conquest also carries over to wvw no? That's why I included wvw as both are effected by changes and balance of classes in both have to be considered.

    Wrong wrong wrong. Conquest is different from wvw. Something that works in wvw doesn't always work in spvp. Why do you think they split the balance between those modes?

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 5, 2019

    @bigo.9037 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @bigo.9037 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @bOTEB.1573 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:
    Their necessary, I kno that's hard to accept about ur class. Soulbeast isn't OP sic em is. Druid needs buffs I will say that.

    It is not OP at all. Most high tier rangers don't even run with it, fact, (because it is useless against skilled enemies) - they prefer more stun breaks and invulnerability. Lets not build our nerf suggestion strategies according to bronze/silver/gold tiers, where we can see a lot more playstyle flaws.

    Again u can keep using the it's not in top ranks arguement but means little. Sic em may not be a top pic for high tier players,that means little. In wvw SIC EM builds are literally every other player u see because it's broken unblockable dps at such a range. Just because it's not a skill picked often in high tier due to there being more reliable options for THAT game mode that fill the purpose of the player doesnt make it not OP in other modes. Although I'm sure sic em is used in conquest regardless of u stating it isn't. That skill alone with the range would make a slb a decent +1 spec .

    Firstly this is a pvp forum not wvw. Wvw perspective hardly mean anything here. Secondly, good players can easily deal with a sicem ranger if they are ready for it even in wvw. I killed many of them on my slb without using sicem. I've died a few times cus I wasn't ready, or straight up afk to sicem rangers. I've died more often to mesmers 1shotting me out of stealth. Talk about 0 counter play lol. But hey, that's my own fault for running around with squishy armor that has 0 toughness and low protection uptime.

    Again, gold tier players (pvp) and below... You are shooting yourself in the foot by wanting nerfs to classes you can't deal with .. the game will be dumbed down and no matter what 1 build will always be annoying or stronger than yours...

    They dont balance classes just for conquest nor wvw so how a class effects one mode effects another. If a class is broken in wvw while not as broken in pvp scourge as example does not mean it's fine since it's ok in pvp conquest mode. Since balancing and changes to a class effect it in both modes discussing its balance in conquest also carries over to wvw no? That's why I included wvw as both are effected by changes and balance of classes in both have to be considered.

    Wrong wrong wrong. Conquest is different from wvw. Something that works in wvw doesn't always work in spvp. Why do you think they split the balance between those modes?

    Yeah what works in wvw doesn't necessarily work in conquest hence why the arguement that a class/spec is balanced or weak because it's not in high tier ranks means little for how balanced the class or skills of a class are overall,u just proved the point of why I've been saying that's a bad defense. Also reiterates why a class or skills can't be considered balanced nor can it be considered op or underpowered just on the basis of pvp conquest mode as one has to consider the state of the class or its skills in all modes. Although sic em may not be considered OP in pvp conquest though I believe and many others aswell it most certainly is broken in wvw. Theres a reason why every 2nd player u see now is a roaming soulbeast sice em running build lol

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