REWORK LIFESTEAL

Kuulpb.5412 · May 19, 2019

I think Lifesteal in this game is Not at all like it should be, it's currently " + bonus damage effected by power, + healing effected by healing power" , lifesteal should Either Be effected by both or JUST power, and Should A) allow for crits, or B) be reworked to act like Reaper's new souleater, where Lifesteal is healed for X amount of damage done. The changes to warhorn 5 and focus 4 in my opinion are just horrible changes.

JusticeRetroHunter.7684 · May 19, 2019

I agree that lifesteal feels underwhelming. Frankly life stealing should do more to benefit the necromancer

For example, siphoning resources from your enemy rather than just health...like draining endurance, cooldowns(making enemy cooldowns higher) or siphoning life force in addition to health.

Dadnir.5038 · May 19, 2019

While I can't and won't disagree with what was said about focus and warhorn.

The fact is that the current way necromancer's lifesteal effects work favor a tanky gameplay that might have been envisionned before release of the game. To put it simply, a cleric necromancer that focus on life steal is "metrically OP" with high sustain and above average (amongst cleric builds) damage that ignore defense. It's a relic of the past that don't fit the view that modern players have of the game but produce a level of sustain and associated damage that can be qualified as "OP" when all the stars align.

For example, you have to take into account that traited, each well have the potential to heal you for 6k to 7.5k without healing power. Which mean that you can litterally fill your utility bar with pseudo heal skills that also deal a similar amount of damage.

Moreover, if ANet were to allow lifesteal to crit and proc things it would favor DPS builds, which mean that you wouldn't give up offense for defense and this would lead tanky build to be less tanky than offensive build... In other words, a balance mess (even if gw2 isn't a tank-friendly game since it's well known that in this game the best defense remain offense).

The necromancer's defense is all about health points and lifesteal, as it is designed, is part of this original defensive system of the necromancer. ANet showed with the scourge that they aren't willing to change this philosophy of defending through health point, instead they are more than ready to expand on it and share it with other professions.

Kuulpb.5412 · May 19, 2019

@"Dadnir.5038" said:While I can't and won't disagree with what was said about focus and warhorn.
The fact is that the current way necromancer's lifesteal effects work favor a tanky gameplay that might have been envisionned before release of the game. To put it simply, a cleric necromancer that focus on life steal is "metrically OP" with high sustain and above average (amongst cleric builds) damage that ignore defense. It's a relic of the past that don't fit the view that modern players have of the game but produce a level of sustain and associated damage that can be qualified as "OP" when all the stars align.
For example, you have to take into account that traited, each well have the potential to heal you for 6k to 7.5k without healing power. Which mean that you can litterally fill your utility bar with pseudo heal skills that also deal a similar amount of damage.
Moreover, if ANet were to allow lifesteal to crit and proc things it would favor DPS builds, which mean that you wouldn't give up offense for defense and this would lead tanky build to be less tanky than offensive build... In other words, a balance mess (even if gw2 isn't a tank-friendly game since it's well known that in this game the best defense remain offense).
The necromancer's defense is all about health points and lifesteal, as it is designed, is part of this original defensive system of the necromancer. ANet showed with the scourge that they aren't willing to change this philosophy of defending through health point, instead they are more than ready to expand on it and share it with other professions.

the main thing about that though is: because 212(base) x 5 targets = 1000 a tick sure, but that's also accounting for what is effectively an "enemy that doesn't have eyes" and if the enemy does more than 1000 per second, which is nothing unusual, then that doesn't help, especially since to heal for that 1k a tick (5k per well) you need 5 enemies, all of which have to do between 0-200 damage to get ANY benefit, otherwise you're just "reducing damage you take" at the end, since you have to stand inside the well and they have to stand inside the well. If you are ina well, 5 enemies and you, you heal for 1000, if each enemy does 1000 a hit, that's 4k you take as opposed to 5k, if you have 4k health left before this, you die, If you have 5k you survive on 1k and won't survive another. Lifesteal as it is now Heals for basically nothing except the most specific of specific circumstances, and IN those specific circumstances you have to be RIGHT in the line of fire to even be healed. Heal from shouts? you need 5 targets, Heal from well? 5 targets, any less and you aren't even being healed enough to warrant using any lifesteal. now that the focus and warhorn reworks gutted the entire thing, focus 4 hitting ONE target heals for basically nothing, warhorn with such a low duration, PBAoE and a large visual effect basically heals for nothing- At the BEST Possible outcome, Warhorn heals for 1850, this is less than dagger 2, which has - more range, shorter cast, but can be interrupted by looking away, Dagger 2 at BEST heals for: 4050, this will heal even if you are blocked, but not if you miss, so the warhorn in BEST POSSIBLE SCENARIO heals Less than dagger 2.

And Dagger isn't even that strong because it has no mobility and no way to counter anything, ( made a post about weapon rework yada yada),

Sorry if this started to rant on a bit - but they need to focus more on "average" than "best outcome", and even then their best outcome is worse than a skill that is easier to use.

I constantly feel like they nerf necromancer and don't take anything players say into consideration, yeah some people complained about focus 4, but I think the unanimous idea was make it Home like dagger 4, instead it's now worse as it doesn't home, does less damage, Less healing because regeneration lasted longer less vulnerability, but more life force which we don't even need because when things die we get life force. They also certainly didn't balance it for Pvp/WvW as it doesn't pierce, and can be blocked etc.

Stand The Wall.6987 · May 19, 2019

it just needs to be a stronger heal in most cases.

Kuulpb.5412 · May 19, 2019

@"Stand The Wall.6987" said:it just needs to be a stronger heal in most cases.

But that won't actually fix any problem, Lifesteal is "lifesteal" not "Deal X damage to heal for Y", it's supposed to be "Deal X damage, heal for X" you are Stealing a Set amount of health, so why do they grow at different rates?

Stand The Wall.6987 · May 19, 2019

@Kuulpb.5412 said:so why do they grow at different rates?

cuz balance. you cant have blood magic traits doing the same as dagger siphon.

Kuulpb.5412 · May 19, 2019

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:
@Kuulpb.5412 said:so why do they grow at different rates?

cuz balance. you cant have blood magic traits doing the same as dagger siphon.

Dagger siphon grows at different rates, what do you mean?

Edit: they literally do the Same thing, but have different base numbers and growth.

Stand The Wall.6987 · May 19, 2019

@Kuulpb.5412 said:
@Stand The Wall.6987 said:
@Kuulpb.5412 said:so why do they grow at different rates?

cuz balance. you cant have blood magic traits doing the same as dagger siphon.

Dagger siphon grows at different rates, what do you mean?

Edit: they literally do the Same thing, but have different base numbers and growth.

I have no idea what you're trying to say.

Kuulpb.5412 · May 19, 2019

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:
@Kuulpb.5412 said:
@Stand The Wall.6987 said:
@Kuulpb.5412 said:so why do they grow at different rates?

cuz balance. you cant have blood magic traits doing the same as dagger siphon.

Dagger siphon grows at different rates, what do you mean?

Edit: they literally do the Same thing, but have different base numbers and growth.

I have no idea what you're trying to say.

you said you can't have traits do the same as dagger siphon, but that's what they do, both have a Damage aspect which is effected by power and a healing aspect effected by healing power, not sure what you're not understanding but I hope this helps clarify. both aren't "lifesteal" but are more heal when you do damage, and not a % of the damage you do.

Teratus.2859 · May 19, 2019

Lifesteal is in absolutely no way underwhelming in this game..

If you play even a slightly durable minion master with blood magic traitline you would know that lifesteal is amazing.

If they changed it to benefit from power and crits like you suggested it would literally make one of my favorite builds unkillable.

If they made lifesteal more powerful like that you'd have Necro MM's AFK farming world bosses and tons of other group events as the minion lifesteal would easily be enough to outheal many of those more powerful creatures.

Kuulpb.5412 · May 19, 2019

@"Teratus.2859" said:Lifesteal is in absolutely no way underwhelming in this game..
If you play even a slightly durable minion master with blood magic traitline you would know that lifesteal is amazing.
If they changed it to benefit from power and crits like you suggested it would literally make one of my favorite builds unkillable.
If they made lifesteal more powerful like that you'd have Necro MM's AFK farming world bosses and tons of other group events as the minion lifesteal would easily be enough to outheal many of those more powerful creatures.

one main issue I have is: Things seem to basically "require" other things to even function normally, lifesteal as it is now, is more "50-100 healing a hit" which is Almost nothing when you consider necromancers have 20-30,000 health and very low armour, so healing already has a lower "effect" on necromancers as Healing benefits from toughness over vitality.

the build you mention I assume is a Blood magic and Death magic thing, but as death magic outside of some general use PvE builds is REALLY bad it doesn't really mean much if you're "unkillable" when you do very low damage, Minions don't benefit from your power etc at all and for you to get any noticeable healing from it you need healing power or to hit lots of things fast: reworking lifesteal would mean reworking traits too, so the "unkillable" build wouldn't be unkillable since it'd be tweaked from a balance standpoint, although having said that necromancers need something they excel in because they have nothing atm, Healing is druid, condition is Mirage, tankinees is spellbreaker, Power is basically anything.

Dadnir.5038 · May 19, 2019

@Kuulpb.5412 said:
@"Dadnir.5038" said:While I can't and won't disagree with what was said about focus and warhorn.
The fact is that the current way necromancer's lifesteal effects work favor a tanky gameplay that might have been envisionned before release of the game. To put it simply, a cleric necromancer that focus on life steal is "metrically OP" with high sustain and above average (amongst cleric builds) damage that ignore defense. It's a relic of the past that don't fit the view that modern players have of the game but produce a level of sustain and associated damage that can be qualified as "OP" when all the stars align.
For example, you have to take into account that traited, each
well
have the potential to heal you for 6k to 7.5k without healing power. Which mean that you can litterally fill your utility bar with pseudo heal skills that also deal a similar amount of damage.
Moreover, if ANet were to allow lifesteal to crit and proc things it would favor DPS builds, which mean that you wouldn't give up offense for defense and this would lead tanky build to be less tanky than offensive build... In other words, a balance mess (even if gw2 isn't a tank-friendly game since it's well known that in this game the best defense remain offense).
The necromancer's defense is all about health points and lifesteal, as it is designed, is part of this original defensive system of the necromancer. ANet showed with the scourge that they aren't willing to change this philosophy of defending through health point, instead they are more than ready to expand on it and share it with other professions.

the main thing about that though is: because 212(base) x 5 targets = 1000 a tick sure, but that's also accounting for what is effectively an "enemy that doesn't have eyes" and if the enemy does more than 1000 per second, which is nothing unusual, then that doesn't help, especially since to heal for that 1k a tick (5k per well) you need 5 enemies, all of which have to do between 0-200 damage to get ANY benefit, otherwise you're just "reducing damage you take" at the end, since you have to stand inside the well and they have to stand inside the well. If you are ina well, 5 enemies and you, you heal for 1000, if each enemy does 1000 a hit, that's 4k you take as opposed to 5k, if you have 4k health left before this, you die, If you have 5k you survive on 1k and won't survive another. Lifesteal as it is now Heals for basically nothing except the most specific of specific circumstances, and IN those specific circumstances you have to be RIGHT in the line of fire to even be healed. Heal from shouts? you need 5 targets, Heal from well? 5 targets, any less and you aren't even being healed enough to warrant using any lifesteal. now that the focus and warhorn reworks gutted the entire thing, focus 4 hitting ONE target heals for basically nothing, warhorn with such a low duration, PBAoE and a large visual effect basically heals for nothing- At the BEST Possible outcome, Warhorn heals for 1850, this is less than dagger 2, which has - more range, shorter cast, but can be interrupted by looking away, Dagger 2 at BEST heals for: 4050, this will heal even if you are blocked, but not if you miss, so the warhorn in BEST POSSIBLE SCENARIO heals Less than dagger 2.

And Dagger isn't even that strong because it has no mobility and no way to counter anything, ( made a post about weapon rework yada yada),

Sorry if this started to rant on a bit - but they need to focus more on "average" than "best outcome", and even then their best outcome is worse than a skill that is easier to use.

I constantly feel like they nerf necromancer and don't take anything players say into consideration, yeah some people complained about focus 4, but I think the unanimous idea was make it Home like dagger 4, instead it's now worse as it doesn't home, does less damage, Less healing because regeneration lasted longer less vulnerability, but more life force which we don't even need because when things die we get life force. They also certainly didn't balance it for Pvp/WvW as it doesn't pierce, and can be blocked etc.

I understand how you feel, but you can't rule out the maximum potential of something with arguments like: ennemies will avoid it. It's like saying that an invuln skill do nothing because players don't hit you when you use it.

The defensive mechanism of the necromancer is flawed at it's core but the whole necromancer is balanced around it. Modifying the lifestealing effects the way you suggest would shatter the balance and give to much potential sustain to dps spec like I've said before. Each time ANet add a bunch of lifesteal effects on the necromancer they do it very carefully, truth be told I think the GS trait was them being very daring but considering all the previous nerfs to reaper's sustain (shroud uptime and spectral skills nerf) they had some margin to do it.

Teratus.2859 · May 19, 2019

@Kuulpb.5412 said:
@"Teratus.2859" said:Lifesteal is in absolutely no way underwhelming in this game..
If you play even a slightly durable minion master with blood magic traitline you would know that lifesteal is amazing.
If they changed it to benefit from power and crits like you suggested it would literally make one of my favorite builds unkillable.
If they made lifesteal more powerful like that you'd have Necro MM's AFK farming world bosses and tons of other group events as the minion lifesteal would easily be enough to outheal many of those more powerful creatures.

one main issue I have is: Things seem to basically "require" other things to even function normally, lifesteal as it is now, is more "50-100 healing a hit" which is Almost nothing when you consider necromancers have 20-30,000 health and very low armour, so healing already has a lower "effect" on necromancers as Healing benefits from toughness over vitality.

the build you mention I assume is a Blood magic and Death magic thing, but as death magic outside of some general use PvE builds is REALLY bad it doesn't really mean much if you're "unkillable" when you do very low damage, Minions don't benefit from your power etc at all and for you to get any noticeable healing from it you need healing power or to hit lots of things fast: reworking lifesteal would mean reworking traits too, so the "unkillable" build wouldn't be unkillable since it'd be tweaked from a balance standpoint, although having said that necromancers need something they excel in because they have nothing atm, Healing is druid, condition is Mirage, tankinees is spellbreaker, Power is basically anything.

Blood, Death, Reaper yes, used to use Soul Reaping pre HoT.Designed largely around maximizing minions and heal sustain.. it's very hard to kill in PvE and prior to minion changes and the addition of Elite specs it was really hard to kill in PvP too pre HoT.I don't actually use Healing power (except the 150 I get from Last rites).. I use Soldier stats so my damage isn't as terrible as you might expect neither is the incoming healing.In many fights I can maintain around 10-11 minions sometimes 12 depending on what i'm running and how many enemies are around and that does add up both in damage and in incoming life steal.Sure I'm not going to win any DPS awards or anything but it's good enough to go toe to toe with just about anything solo.

Adding to that I have access to regen on dodge (Lesser Mark of Blood) and protection when leaving shroud (Beyond the Veil)Sometimes I use Death Nova for more minions = more lifesteal + more damage and tons of poisonfields when they die :D or Corrupter's Fervor for more toughness.I get more toughness per minion with Flesh of the Master amd More damage from minions and they take conditions with Necromantic Corruption.Minion and Player Lifesteal with Vampiric and Vampiric Pressence as well as stopping ally bleedout and being able to pull rez them in shroud.

Then in Reaper line I have lifesteal on shout + reduced cooldown for Rise per target, 15% damage increase to chilled foes which is easy to exploit with focus 5, Reaper Shroud and GS auto and lastly I get 300 ferocity and quickness while in shroud which goes really nicely with Decimate Defences 2% crit chance per stack of Vulnerability on foes allowing me to get 50% crit chance without needing any precision stat in the build at all.I can get more ferocity and power from food etc too if I want extra damage as well as more crits from Superior Sigil of Preception(25 stacks combined with 25 stacks of Vulnerability = 66.90% Crit chance without a single investment in precision)

Contributing to the healing factor as well I have constant health regen from Superior Rune of the Dolyak and I AoE heal on crits with Superior Sigil of Water.

So as you can see I have a lot of constant incoming healing from multiple sources mostly life steal from on average 10ish minions. (can also get more from food)Likewise multiple pockets of damage being done by myself, minions and poison fields caused by their death which are numerous thanks to timegated minions I get when I kill stuff and the minions summoned with Rise.I can get almost 70% crit chance without precision (which is ridiculous)My stats bounce around 2,382 Power + 2,340-2,500 Toughness depending on how many minions I have (2660 in shroud) which gives me a max Armor rating of 3,307- 3,500 (3600+ in shroud) Not so "very low" after all is it :PCombine that with 29,812 base Hp (30K + with food) and 20,571 Life force and you can see what I mean when I say lifesteal is already capable of making you nearly unkillable as it is without needing to completely sacrifice your damage.

Functions great as a solo build and benefits from a moderate damage buff when playing with others thanks to 25 vulnerability and perma chill being extremely easy to maintan with a small group.Dagger 2 even functions as a main healing skill thanks to it's bigger heal and 6 second shorter cooldown than sacrificing the Blood Fiend.

I highly recommend giving it a try sometime if you like the power tank playstyle, more than happy to give you the exact build I use, all traits, gear etc.It's never going to be best DPS meta or anything but it's still very capable, definitely the kind of build you use to help people out when they get in over their heads which is a fun pastime for me.Oh yeah the Shroud skill 4 does AoE healing too, I've managed to get upwards of 6K AoE healing on it in some situations (around 4-5K normally) which is a nice boon for fractals and stuff, I've saved a lot of people with this build over the years not to mention being the main reason my fractal pug group hasn't wiped multiple times in the same encounter ^^

Kulvar.1239 · May 20, 2019

@JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:I agree that lifesteal feels underwhelming. Frankly life stealing should do more to benefit the necromancer
For example, siphoning resources from your enemy rather than just health...like draining endurance, cooldowns(making enemy cooldowns higher) or siphoning life force in addition to health.

Having so many effects on life steal would just make it overpowered and lead to it being nerfed into oblivion.There's already Weakness and Chilled for lowering endurance and cooldown recharge rate, both available to Necromancer.

@Kuulpb.5412 said:
@"Stand The Wall.6987" said:it just needs to be a stronger heal in most cases.

But that won't actually fix any problem, Lifesteal is "lifesteal" not "Deal X damage to heal for Y", it's supposed to be "Deal X damage, heal for X" you are Stealing a Set amount of health, so why do they grow at different rates?

There is no intrinsic rule that make it wrong to have the damage and healing separated. That's a way to get more control on the metrics to balance them.Having the healing part scaling of Power (1:1 with damage) would remove any usefulness to the Healing Power attribute and allow huge sustain on glass cannon characters.

Kuulpb.5412 · May 20, 2019

@Teratus.2859 said:
@Kuulpb.5412 said:
@Teratus.2859 said:Lifesteal is in absolutely no way underwhelming in this game..
If you play even a slightly durable minion master with blood magic traitline you would know that lifesteal is amazing.
If they changed it to benefit from power and crits like you suggested it would literally make one of my favorite builds unkillable.
If they made lifesteal more powerful like that you'd have Necro MM's AFK farming world bosses and tons of other group events as the minion lifesteal would easily be enough to outheal many of those more powerful creatures.