What are peoples thought on stealth? — Guild Wars 2 Forums

What are peoples thought on stealth?

zengara.8301zengara.8301 Member ✭✭✭

As the title says, generally just want to know what people think of stealth in WvW, not the classes that use them etc. Just stealth on its own
good/bad/room for improvement?

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Comments

  • derd.6413derd.6413 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 21, 2019

    room for improvement i'd say.

    stealth's purpose is to deny your opponent information but i think it denies a bit too much info for it to be "fun to play against" (only somewhat alleviated because ppl tend to run the same stealth builds so you're able to predict their behavior)

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  • nthmetal.9652nthmetal.9652 Member ✭✭✭

    Stealth itself is already a problematic issue, as it flat-out denies the opposing player many means of interacting with the stealthed party. Stealth combined with movement abilities, especially (but not lmited to) teleports and superspeed can be quite overpowering. I don't think I need to elaborate on that.

    The same goes for long stealth durations inside of combat, even more so for large groups.
    There's a reason, mass invisibility only works on 10 targets, there's a reason why veil only lasts 2 seconds. Smoke fields, with their ability to blast them to extend duration significantly are quite bothersome, and while I know how effective a stealth-portalbomb can be, I find this playstyle highly annoying.

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  • Dawdler.8521Dawdler.8521 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Its really only been the duration and frequency of reapplying thats the "problem".

    Personally I still think that attacking from stealth should make the character revealed for say 10 seconds and stealth is only stacked with the highest time (ie if you stealth for 5s and instantly apply 3s stealth again, you still only stealth for 5s)

  • TheQuickFox.3826TheQuickFox.3826 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I think stealth is great when used defensively.
    I think that stealth is bad when used offensively.

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  • No opinion, really. All the builds that used to be an issue are no longer so. Though some things can build to have high access to Stealth, I don't feel any of them are so difficult to manage that they're not worth fighting. It's just a matter of patience and experience.

    I do think Stealth was poorly implemented in GW2, but I also think at this point in it's life it would be unfair to certain professions to have it reworked.

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  • Clownmug.8357Clownmug.8357 Member ✭✭✭

    It's problematic when it allows the user to safely deliver big hits while their opponent, if they're even aware, can only dodge randomly or waste a defense skill.

  • Kaiser.9873Kaiser.9873 Member ✭✭✭

    Would prefer stealth more like Warhammer Online, where the stealth class is more like camo than invis. Hate that people can use stealth, and stay stealthed essentially forever in some builds. Combat should keep a player from stealthing imo. Cooldown would be nice as a mechanism as well.

  • Aeolus.3615Aeolus.3615 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Need better validations feels something out from a open beta state game.

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I love stealth as a mechanic in MMO's and RPG's..
    I despise stealth as a mechanic in any kind of competitive PVP.

  • Kylden Ar.3724Kylden Ar.3724 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @zengara.8301 said:
    As the title says, generally just want to know what people think of stealth in WvW, not the classes that use them etc. Just stealth on its own
    good/bad/room for improvement?

    I long ago made my suggestions and debate on this issue. In short, I think that stealth should break targeting, but look the same to everyone (even enemies) as it does you. Would allow you to sneak around at range, and deal with AI (camp guards, etc) but not be a get out of jail free card in combat.

    And I say this AS a (former^1) Mesmer main. Stealth is too good to the classes that have it that you almost hurt yourself if you don't take at least a little.

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  • Stand The Wall.6987Stand The Wall.6987 Member ✭✭✭✭

    making stealth unstackable would ruin it for organized play. only problem I have with it are one shots when paired to stealth. frequency is a problem too. maybe up revealed time?

    you don't know till you know, ya know.

  • XenesisII.1540XenesisII.1540 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Stealth is great, it has too many restrictions on it.

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  • iKeostuKen.2738iKeostuKen.2738 Member ✭✭✭

    Should be like WoW's stealth system. Seeable when close, certain things can track it and alert the player, movement is slowed while inside.

  • Worst mechanic in any game. It should be changed that if your strike the person in stealth (especially with a melee weapon), they get revealed and would have to reapply stealth to go back into it.

  • Burnfall.9573Burnfall.9573 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 21, 2019

    @oOStaticOo.9467 said:
    "I say we take off and nuke it from orbit." Seriously. Burn it. Burn it to the ground"

  • Turkeyspit.3965Turkeyspit.3965 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @oOStaticOo.9467 said:
    "I say we take off and nuke it from orbit." Seriously. Burn it. Burn it to the ground.

    It's the only way to be sure...

  • hunkamania.7561hunkamania.7561 Member ✭✭✭✭

    3-6 seconds tops is alright but when you can stack up double digit stealth time up it gets out of hand.

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  • Justine.6351Justine.6351 Member ✭✭✭✭

    One of the problems with stealth is actually a problem instead with how projectiles aim without a target. When you don't have a target your projectiles just shoot in the ground in front of you due to camera angle. If you lower your camera to the horizontal of your character's view you lose all sight behind you. Its just wonky.

    One ranged class/build that deals fairly well against stealthed targets is hammer herald due to hammer/glint skills being ground based. The pbaoe from jade winds doesn't do to bad either.

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  • Crow.2851Crow.2851 Member ✭✭

    When fighting roaming 1 shot builds? It's a bit obnoxious. I've never been a fan of perma stealth thieves or cloaked gank squads, but every video game has players who enjoy camping more than actively engaging. Just have to be on point with your interrupts, evades, and gtfo options when they do appear.

    When combating zergs? It's a cool mechanic. Whether you're doing a coordinated stealth push, using the invisibility to secure a rez or stomp, or dropping a stealthy siege disable on a raiding party, I think stealth is a healthy tool for the game mode.

    I wish more folks utilized target painters, Warclaw sniff, and classes with reveals for handling stealth heavy opponents. If you see a blob with Mesmers or Scrappers, expect some sneaking shenanigans.

  • Creaitov.6328Creaitov.6328 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 21, 2019

    People talking about stealth stacking and permastealth being a problem and stuff... you have no idea.

    For roaming, you can't be stealthed while using the warclaw so if anyone is running permastealth they're basically handicapping themselves out of the best mobility available in the game mode, and regarding the oneshots, well good luck landing one against a mounted player since you have to a) catch them and b) deal with a 11k hp buffer (the mount). I must say this is one of the only good things the warclaw has done for WvW lol.

    Then you also have the sentries and towers applying "marked" that lasts for an eternity from kilometers away, making stealth stacking impossible in the first place and rendering some skills and playstyles useless near objectives (PU mesmer, stealth deadeye, mass invisibility and sneak gyro to name a few). IMO stealth haters should be happy with how the game mode is right now because as it is there is just too much hate for stealth-based playstyles to work.

    On the other hand, classes and builds that use short (<3s) bursts of stealth are perfectly fine. That daredevil or mesmer that suddenly went invisible needs to do that to survive, and you can see the exact moment when they went invisible so you can prepare and adapt (people like to throw that word around a lot huh? lol) to it. They don't have the same defenses as your regular tanky bruiser so stop crying about it. Good luck facetanking a warrior's rampage as a thief without going invi or using daggerstorm for example lol.

  • LetoII.3782LetoII.3782 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I'm looking forward to guardian getting stealth with the new mainhand shield elite next expac.

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  • coro.3176coro.3176 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Stealth is probably at it's lowest point (in WvW anyway) since the start of the game.

    • Every enemy sentry applies the marked debuff that lasts for ~20 or 30 seconds (can't remember exactly, but it's a long time) preventing stealth.
    • T3 towers have watchtower applying marked preventing stealth in huge sections of the map
    • Every ranger/soulbeast running around is packing Sic Em to reveal their target for a huge burst.
    • Every scrapper running around is packing Detection Pulse which reveals a pretty massive 1200 radius aoe around them.

    ^ because of these and other factors, most builds that abused stealth heavily have stopped doing that. There's too much chance you'll be fighting in a spot where you can't rely on it.

  • Whiteout.1975Whiteout.1975 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 23, 2019

    I actually don't have a huge problem with stealth. It's stack-able duration's more so than anything. I enjoy the anticipation game that is played generally speaking.

    My 100% absolute biggest problem... Is stealth + good (even decent) mobility. Basically two strong defensive (or offensive) mechanics working side by side (mobility especially in the right hands). It can be hard to kill what you can't see... Can be even harder to kill what you can't catch.

    To me, if your playing a "sneaky" role even if just a moment of combat. You would naturally try to be careful and quiet.

    IMO, I Honestly think stealth would be more balanced if it applied a debuff to movement speed while active. Doesn't have to be a lot (I don't think it should be a lot)... Just enough to help make a noticeable difference. So it's not more advantageous then it needs to be. (I'm guessing 10 - 25% movement speed reduction)

    Edit -
    I just wanted to add what might be better is if you could not exceed base combat mobility while in stealth. So swiftness or super speed for example would not work. Though, if you got crippled or chilled... that would still work. Just a thought :+1:

  • Straegen.2938Straegen.2938 Member ✭✭✭

    Stealth is a mechanic that really only belongs on the thief class. Rangers, Engis, Mesmers already have a ridiculous amount of survival baked into the their class. Access to stealth just makes killing already strong meta classes obnoxious. Warclaw effectively fixed the significant stealth issue with thieves.

  • GDchiaScrub.3241GDchiaScrub.3241 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Stealth doesn't seem to matter much in PvE. There's a thought on it.

    D:

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  • DeadlySynz.3471DeadlySynz.3471 Member ✭✭✭✭

    If stealth was prevented while in combat, it'd be fine.

  • DemonSeed.3528DemonSeed.3528 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Straegen.2938 said:
    Stealth is a mechanic that really only belongs on the thief class. Rangers, Engis, Mesmers already have a ridiculous amount of survival baked into the their class. Access to stealth just makes killing already strong meta classes obnoxious. Warclaw effectively fixed the significant stealth issue with thieves.

    I think it should be something unique only to thieves.

  • Duckota.4769Duckota.4769 Member ✭✭✭

    Make aoe stealth (blasting smoke) stackable duration. Make other forms like leaping your own smoke a non stackable form of stealth. No leaping the same field multiple times. Remove marked stealth debuff from watchtowers and sentries. (Still apply the initial debuff when a tower/keep first flips so that you can find the one mesmer hiding. Some classes need stealth to be effective at all, but not a lot. Such as d/p thief. You need to dance in and out of stealth but not for long durations of time. They're currently useless anywhere marked exists and that is a problem. They shouldn't be useless. They just shouldn't be able to stealth for extended periods of times without the help of numerous allies blasting.

  • Svarty.8019Svarty.8019 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 23, 2019

    Stealth is a broken concept.

    No game ever does stealth well, it's just a terrible idea.

    To expand: It's overpowered. When Tolkein was looking for an ability for the most powerful item in the world, he chose Stealth.

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  • HazyDaisy.4107HazyDaisy.4107 Member ✭✭✭✭

    If stealth were only available as an option to make outnumbered or severly unfair fights a bit more survivable for the individual stealther it would be one thing, instead, it's often used as a method to make most already pretty close to fair fights tip deviously in favor of the stealther and any adds he/she has waiting nearby.

    I would classify anyone who deploys stealth in this matter (and that includes some of my characters) as opportunist gankers or overzealous roamers, but I would not classify these players as pvpers.

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  • Jayden Reese.9542Jayden Reese.9542 Member ✭✭✭

    @NuhDah.9812 said:

    @Jayden Reese.9542 said:
    Garbage mechanic that turns bad players to good good to great and great to unstoppable. Typically the griefer types gravitate towards it in every game. Nothing as fun as fighting something you can't see or getting killed before you can react or esp in gw2 getting attacked surviving and he stealths resets 4 times to finally win or run wasting your time. Leads to more qq or rage quitting then any other mechanic. Just ruins some players experience while catering to the bads that need stealth as a crutch.

    Actually the only people I see in this thread grieving are bads that don't play stealth and can't be bothered to learn how to play against it, those types that believe their overtunned builds are entitled to carry them even in unpredictable situations, the kind that stealth might be able to provide in the right hands.

    What? Not much counter in most games to invisible. Lots end up being stealth/stun locked dead. Sure gw2 i can squint my eyes looking for a couple tells for a couple abilities. But sure if you think i'm griefing or am bad cause of thinking stealth in games is garbage that's fine.

  • Thornwolf.9721Thornwolf.9721 Member ✭✭✭

    Shouldn't be able to spike or interact with items while stealth-ed. Otherwise Im indifferent.

  • crepuscular.9047crepuscular.9047 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 23, 2019

    I dont play stealth builds, and hate playing against them; i prefer to play dd duelist facing the enemy head on

    my view is stealth stacking to stay perma stealth is ok to sneak behind enemy lines
    what i see the problem is the ability for them to constantly going in and out from stealth, there should be a 10-20 cd after leaving stealth, revealing stealth enemy will extend the cd

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  • NuhDah.9812NuhDah.9812 Member ✭✭✭

    @crepuscular.9047 said:
    I dont play stealth builds, and hate playing against them; i prefer to play dd duelist facing the enemy head on

    my view is stealth stacking to stay perma stealth is ok to sneak behind enemy lines
    what i see the problem is the ability for them to constantly going in and out from stealth, there should be a 10-20 cd after leaving stealth, revealing stealth enemy will extend the cd

    If you'd have any other sort of active or passive defenses to keep you alive for that long that wouldn't be a problem, but you'll probably need to waste all dodges and every defensive ability you have only to keep alive against most match-ups using D/P or DE riffle. I guess it would be a valid point if you just wanted to kill those two weapon sets for good an only leave thief with no stealth option builds. I'm almost certain S/D would hurt enough too if they could use stealth from CnD only once 10-20 seconds. Not like they didn't take out most of thief's options out of the meta or decent choices anyways and not that thief isn't squishy enough as it is without using gimmick "perma" evade staff drd with acro or other sort of obnoxious evade heavy builds.

  • NuhDah.9812NuhDah.9812 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 23, 2019

    @Jayden Reese.9542 said:

    @NuhDah.9812 said:

    @Jayden Reese.9542 said:
    Garbage mechanic that turns bad players to good good to great and great to unstoppable. Typically the griefer types gravitate towards it in every game. Nothing as fun as fighting something you can't see or getting killed before you can react or esp in gw2 getting attacked surviving and he stealths resets 4 times to finally win or run wasting your time. Leads to more qq or rage quitting then any other mechanic. Just ruins some players experience while catering to the bads that need stealth as a crutch.

    Actually the only people I see in this thread grieving are bads that don't play stealth and can't be bothered to learn how to play against it, those types that believe their overtunned builds are entitled to carry them even in unpredictable situations, the kind that stealth might be able to provide in the right hands.

    What? Not much counter in most games to invisible. Lots end up being stealth/stun locked dead. Sure gw2 i can squint my eyes looking for a couple tells for a couple abilities. But sure if you think i'm griefing or am bad cause of thinking stealth in games is garbage that's fine.

    I'm only telling you what I see written here on this thread and it amounts only the same as the statements you made in your previous post.

    I've made attempts more than once on the forums to make people understand that stealth is nothing close to that overpowered monster ability one cannot deal with, in fact due to the less target based nature of this game you have plenty of options to play against it and you can see in the high tear or meta of the game that there is no heavy stealth build there since people who just bothered a bit learning how to deal with stealth have no issues fighting against it. The game gives you enough options and ways to prevent stealth and stealth users to be effective. Since most of the people here are crying about it instead of being able to at least try thinking of what options there are to counter it, how other more skilled players go about facing it or at least appreciating a bit how stealth is implemented in gw2 (especially compared to other implementations in other games) I can only conclude what I've written above: they don't play it, can't be bothered to learn how to play against it and believe their overtunned builds are entitled to carry them.

    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/912138#Comment_912138 here's a list of things that might help any of the people who have difficulties in fighting against stealth. Again, I try stopping this trend of stealth accusations for people who only think stealth should be a copy from other games (WoW or other) and don't bother to understand that, with a bit of mentality change for when their expectations aren't met, a whole other horizon of possibilities might appear.

  • Jayden Reese.9542Jayden Reese.9542 Member ✭✭✭

    @NuhDah.9812 said:

    @Jayden Reese.9542 said:

    @NuhDah.9812 said:

    @Jayden Reese.9542 said:
    Garbage mechanic that turns bad players to good good to great and great to unstoppable. Typically the griefer types gravitate towards it in every game. Nothing as fun as fighting something you can't see or getting killed before you can react or esp in gw2 getting attacked surviving and he stealths resets 4 times to finally win or run wasting your time. Leads to more qq or rage quitting then any other mechanic. Just ruins some players experience while catering to the bads that need stealth as a crutch.

    Actually the only people I see in this thread grieving are bads that don't play stealth and can't be bothered to learn how to play against it, those types that believe their overtunned builds are entitled to carry them even in unpredictable situations, the kind that stealth might be able to provide in the right hands.

    What? Not much counter in most games to invisible. Lots end up being stealth/stun locked dead. Sure gw2 i can squint my eyes looking for a couple tells for a couple abilities. But sure if you think i'm griefing or am bad cause of thinking stealth in games is garbage that's fine.

    I'm only telling you what I see written here on this thread and it amounts only the same as the statements you made in your previous post.

    I've made attempts more than once on the forums to make people understand that stealth is nothing close to that overpowered monster ability one cannot deal with, in fact due to the less target based nature of this game you have plenty of options to play against it and you can see in the high tear or meta of the game that there is no heavy stealth build there since people who just bothered a bit learning how to deal with stealth have no issues fighting against it. The game gives you enough options and ways to prevent stealth and stealth users to be effective. Since most of the people here are crying about it instead of being able to at least try thinking of what options there are to counter it, how other more skilled players go about facing it or at least appreciating a bit how stealth is implemented in gw2 (especially compared to other implementations in other games) I can only conclude what I've written above: they don't play it, can't be bothered to learn how to play against it and believe their overtunned builds are entitled to carry them.

    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/912138#Comment_912138 here's a list of things that might help any of the people who have difficulties in fighting against stealth. Again, I try stopping this trend of stealth accusations for people who only think stealth should be a copy from other games (WoW or other) and don't bother to understand that, with a bit of mentality change for when their expectations aren't met, a whole other horizon of possibilities might appear.

    Ok man your ideas sound great but a lot of classes don't have half of your suggestions and of course you think players want to build around countering stealth and even if someone follows all your suggestions they can still just mobility away after wasting your time. I.m sure war and ranger have 0 problems with thief but some classes which probably do the most complaining on here do. And it's not only thief w access to it. And I took this as stealth in all games not just gw2 as I have not seen it fairly implemented in any game. Always the same thing. Jumped and dead before you can react, spawn camped and any other griefer type behavior seems to always include stealth. I don't even run into problems with thieves often in this game cept maybe the occasional de but some games man stealth and stun would end you in 3 secs. So fun and fair.

  • crepuscular.9047crepuscular.9047 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 23, 2019

    @Hitman.5829 said:
    Stealth is one of the worst mechanics ever created for a game. It punishes the non-stealth player and robs him from a fluid game experience.

    dont agree my friend, stealth is a necessity, just the implementation of it in GW2 is terrible

    What we need is WoW type of stealth implemented

    • Attacking will break stealth = Got
    • Taking damage will cancel stealth = Need
    • Cannot enter stealth while in combat = Need, but very unlikely, so place a cd after revealed to prevent constant quick re-stealth
    • Reveal stealth if too close = Not really needed, but should be possible since they already did it in LWS4E3: Long Live the Lich

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  • Creaitov.6328Creaitov.6328 Member ✭✭✭

    @crepuscular.9047 said:

    @Hitman.5829 said:
    Stealth is one of the worst mechanics ever created for a game. It punishes the non-stealth player and robs him from a fluid game experience.

    dont agree my friend, stealth is a necessity, just the implementation of it in GW2 is terrible

    What we need is WoW type of stealth implemented

    • Attacking will break stealth = Got
    • Taking damage will cancel stealth = Need
    • Cannot enter stealth while in combat = Need, but very unlikely, so place a cd after revealed to prevent constant quick re-stealth
    • Reveal stealth if too close = Not really needed, but should be possible since they already did it in LWS4E3: Long Live the Lich

    That's a nice way of deleting stealth (and thief) from the game.

    Unlike WoW, a lot of the skills in GW2 don't require a target to execute AND they cleave/aoe, so getting revealed when taking damage is a very bad idea. Stealth is also a valid defensive tool so blocking it from being used in combat would be a massive nerf to thief and other classes that use it. And btw a mechanic that prevents constant quick re-stealthing already exists and you even mention it in your post: revealed. Only deadeye can "cheat" this mechanic, but only for a limited amount of times.

    I also would like you to think about the consequences of the changes you're suggesting if they get implemented. Suddenly stealth can't be used in combat or to escape, leaving you with using it to engage unnoticed as the only option. Oh gee I wonder what kind of builds like to show up out of nowhere, drop their burst and then gtfo to never be seen again? They must be real fun to fight against right?

    Also last time I played WoW rogues had an entire talent tree focused on helping them with unstealthed combat, which doesn't exist here. You can call daredevil a "brawler" spec all you want but a daredevil is pretty much as squishy as a core thief so its useless.

  • sephiroth.4217sephiroth.4217 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 24, 2019

    "sick of dying to 1 shots and bruiser sustain builds, well now you dont have to engage at all with our brand new WvW Mount!"
    "sick of dying to stealth? We've introduced Marked and Watch Towers"

    Anet are implementing things to help baddies and newer players hold their own against vet / skilled players, so in regards to stealth, I think its fine and only good for stomping newer players.

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  • Whiteout.1975Whiteout.1975 Member ✭✭✭

    @Straegen.2938 said:
    Stealth is a mechanic that really only belongs on the thief class. Rangers, Engis, Mesmers already have a ridiculous amount of survival baked into the their class. Access to stealth just makes killing already strong meta classes obnoxious. Warclaw effectively fixed the significant stealth issue with thieves.

    I remember back when Revenant first stole Mesmer's alacrity... Interesting times we live in these days.

  • MiniMe.1960MiniMe.1960 Member ✭✭

    get rid of it

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