Balance is terrible.I don't think mesmer are treated fairly — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Balance is terrible.I don't think mesmer are treated fairly

ZeteCommander.4937ZeteCommander.4937 Member ✭✭✭

Forgive me for my poor English. I have used translation tools to complete these contents.Because I can't stand this bad balance.
Now the mesmer is too bad, dull and weak.It seems that players have only one way to play, Shatter and shatter and shatter...
Balance teams don't realize what the problem is,not elite traits,not core traits, not weapons, it's shatter that really needs to be corrected. elite shouldn't have the same shatter skills as core.
If Anet want mirages not to cause too much burst damag that should fundamentally change the f1-F4 and give the mirage enough survival instead of constantly nerf mirages.A mirage should focus on its own special abilities rather than having the same shatter as core.Shatter should be replaced with skills that give vigor .Chronomancer should focus on phantasm and alacrity ,the shatter that distinguish core.Elite should lose its original ability after gaining an advantage.
Now it's all a mess, except shatter!core and all of elite are all in a mess, each nerf is more serious than the last one.Illusionists, Destructive nerf will only make the illusionist impossible to play, not for balance.
So far, I don't want to play GW2 anymore unless there are some positive changes or allow players to re-select roles. (I like my Characters,I don't want my Characters to be treated unfairly)

<13

Comments

  • Curunen.8729Curunen.8729 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I agree that both Chrono and Mirage should have different shatters.

    Challenge of course being how to integrate the shatter traits with new F skills - but if eg F1 for mirage was "order clones to launch super powerful ambush" then shatter traits like mtd/bd/ma etc could be applied on hit of this attack, and traits providing boons/healing etc to the player could take immediate effect upon using the F skill as they do now.

    IH hybrid | My ears, how are you! | Kourna Jackrabbit for default Springer

  • Kylden Ar.3724Kylden Ar.3724 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Xaylin.1860 said:

    @Curunen.8729 said:
    I agree that both Chrono and Mirage should have different shatters.

    Challenge of course being how to integrate the shatter traits with new F skills - but if eg F1 for mirage was "order clones to launch super powerful ambush" then shatter traits like mtd/bd/ma etc could be applied on hit of this attack, and traits providing boons/healing etc to the player could take immediate effect upon using the F skill as they do now.

    While it would emphasize Clone gameplay I don't feel a playstyle that requires a basically 100% Clone uptime is desirable. I'd rather see F1-4 give an Ambush window or even Mirage Cloak by default and that the damage/functionality of the shatter was baked into the Ambush attack (actually way more Thief-like than what we have right now).

    However, I'm very indecisive what I'd like Mirrors to be like. They're pretty and I don't see ANet remove them... but mechanically they're just so... meeeh.

    My idea about this for Mirage.

    1) Remove that largely useless trait that makes clones into mirrors on one shatter only.
    2) Remove F2 to F4 shatters. F1 Shatter gets 10 second cooldown and changes to the following functionality/tooltip;

    Image Conversion: 10 second recharge;
    Convert your clones where they stand, changing them into Mirage Mirrors. Clones transformed this way do not do shatter damage or move to the target before converting.

    3) In addition to the current functions of Mirrors (trigger Mirage Cloak when Mirage touches it) add the following function to Mirage Mirrors;

    Enemies that touch the mirror take [whatever current single clone F1 shatter damage is] damage and gain 3 stacks of Confusion (3 second duration), this will not grant the Mirage the Dune Cloak effect.

    In short, get more Dune Cloak and Ambush uptime in PvE, but in WvW / PvP, your opponents get to make a choice; prevent your extra dodges and ambush attacks OR take damage to deny you them. Or, try to force you to move away from the mirrors to chase them.

    How many times we gotta tell you GRIND IS NOT CONTENT there ANet?

    Leader of Tyrian Adventure Corp [TACO], [RaW][TACO] Alliance, Kaineng.

  • Tayga.3192Tayga.3192 Member ✭✭✭

    @Kylden Ar.3724 said:
    My idea about this for Mirage.

    2) Remove F2 to F4 shatters. F1 Shatter gets 10 second cooldown and changes to the following functionality/tooltip;

    Image Conversion: 10 second recharge;
    Convert your clones where they stand, changing them into Mirage Mirrors. Clones transformed this way do not do shatter damage or move to the target before converting.

    In short, get more Dune Cloak and Ambush uptime in PvE, but in WvW / PvP, your opponents get to make a choice; prevent your extra dodges and ambush attacks OR take damage to deny you them. Or, try to force you to move away from the mirrors to chase them.

    So, instead of targeted confusion, instant daze and invulnerability; you get a "oh, wait a bit, let me get my mirrors first ^_^"?

  • Kylden Ar.3724Kylden Ar.3724 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 21, 2019

    @Tayga.3192 said:

    @Kylden Ar.3724 said:
    My idea about this for Mirage.

    2) Remove F2 to F4 shatters. F1 Shatter gets 10 second cooldown and changes to the following functionality/tooltip;

    Image Conversion: 10 second recharge;
    Convert your clones where they stand, changing them into Mirage Mirrors. Clones transformed this way do not do shatter damage or move to the target before converting.

    In short, get more Dune Cloak and Ambush uptime in PvE, but in WvW / PvP, your opponents get to make a choice; prevent your extra dodges and ambush attacks OR take damage to deny you them. Or, try to force you to move away from the mirrors to chase them.

    So, instead of targeted confusion, instant daze and invulnerability; you get a "oh, wait a bit, let me get my mirrors first ^_^"?

    Yeah, it's called trade offs, that we should have for these things. Because if you can have up to 5 or 6 mirrors on the field at a time, that's a LOT of Dune Cloak.

    How many times we gotta tell you GRIND IS NOT CONTENT there ANet?

    Leader of Tyrian Adventure Corp [TACO], [RaW][TACO] Alliance, Kaineng.

  • praqtos.9035praqtos.9035 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 21, 2019

    @Kylden Ar.3724 said:

    @Tayga.3192 said:

    @Kylden Ar.3724 said:
    My idea about this for Mirage.

    2) Remove F2 to F4 shatters. F1 Shatter gets 10 second cooldown and changes to the following functionality/tooltip;

    Image Conversion: 10 second recharge;
    Convert your clones where they stand, changing them into Mirage Mirrors. Clones transformed this way do not do shatter damage or move to the target before converting.

    In short, get more Dune Cloak and Ambush uptime in PvE, but in WvW / PvP, your opponents get to make a choice; prevent your extra dodges and ambush attacks OR take damage to deny you them. Or, try to force you to move away from the mirrors to chase them.

    So, instead of targeted confusion, instant daze and invulnerability; you get a "oh, wait a bit, let me get my mirrors first ^_^"?

    Yeah, it's called trade offs, that we should have for these things. Because if you can have up to 5 or 6 mirrors on the field at a time, that's a LOT of Dune Cloak.

    Trade off = you give something, you take something . Mirage gets downgraded evade(the only thing its better at is being usable in CC,which is they forgot to delete to stop a lot of QQ prematurely) with weak ambush skills that unable to be covered and put you into risk of being cucked closer to the end of the cast and lower damage than warrior unblockable evade ... Are you sure thats great idea to force players to pick up kitten mirrors?

  • Xaylin.1860Xaylin.1860 Member ✭✭✭

    @Kylden Ar.3724 said:

    @Tayga.3192 said:

    @Kylden Ar.3724 said:
    My idea about this for Mirage.

    2) Remove F2 to F4 shatters. F1 Shatter gets 10 second cooldown and changes to the following functionality/tooltip;

    Image Conversion: 10 second recharge;
    Convert your clones where they stand, changing them into Mirage Mirrors. Clones transformed this way do not do shatter damage or move to the target before converting.

    In short, get more Dune Cloak and Ambush uptime in PvE, but in WvW / PvP, your opponents get to make a choice; prevent your extra dodges and ambush attacks OR take damage to deny you them. Or, try to force you to move away from the mirrors to chase them.

    So, instead of targeted confusion, instant daze and invulnerability; you get a "oh, wait a bit, let me get my mirrors first ^_^"?

    Yeah, it's called trade offs, that we should have for these things. Because if you can have up to 5 or 6 mirrors on the field at a time, that's a LOT of Dune Cloak.

    While I do agree that sth. should be done to Shatters you can't simply remove them. It breaks numerous traits for Mirage (Chronomancer respectively) if there are no F1-4.

  • Creaitov.6328Creaitov.6328 Member ✭✭✭

    I like the idea of mirage having "super ambushes" instead of shatters, as long as they're properly balanced so they're not useless without clones. Then you could turn self-deception into "each shatter creates 1 clone on activation" to help with clone uptime and desert distortion into "each shatter creates a mirage mirror in your location after a short delay" to make mirage mirrors work with all the shatters without being overpowered.

    As for mirage mirrors, considering mirage is kinda like the mesmer-thief fusion, I would like them to work like thief's shadowstep/sword 2, in other words, give us a F5 skill that lets us teleport back to the last mirror created and shatter it (or something similar). And since we're talking about F skills, give core mesmer a special F5 shatter just like core rev got a new F2 instead of the elite specs getting nerfed.

  • ZeteCommander.4937ZeteCommander.4937 Member ✭✭✭

    @Kylden Ar.3724 said:

    @Xaylin.1860 said:

    @Curunen.8729 said:
    I agree that both Chrono and Mirage should have different shatters.

    Challenge of course being how to integrate the shatter traits with new F skills - but if eg F1 for mirage was "order clones to launch super powerful ambush" then shatter traits like mtd/bd/ma etc could be applied on hit of this attack, and traits providing boons/healing etc to the player could take immediate effect upon using the F skill as they do now.

    While it would emphasize Clone gameplay I don't feel a playstyle that requires a basically 100% Clone uptime is desirable. I'd rather see F1-4 give an Ambush window or even Mirage Cloak by default and that the damage/functionality of the shatter was baked into the Ambush attack (actually way more Thief-like than what we have right now).

    However, I'm very indecisive what I'd like Mirrors to be like. They're pretty and I don't see ANet remove them... but mechanically they're just so... meeeh.

    My idea about this for Mirage.

    1) Remove that largely useless trait that makes clones into mirrors on one shatter only.
    2) Remove F2 to F4 shatters. F1 Shatter gets 10 second cooldown and changes to the following functionality/tooltip;

    Image Conversion: 10 second recharge;
    Convert your clones where they stand, changing them into Mirage Mirrors. Clones transformed this way do not do shatter damage or move to the target before converting.

    3) In addition to the current functions of Mirrors (trigger Mirage Cloak when Mirage touches it) add the following function to Mirage Mirrors;

    Enemies that touch the mirror take [whatever current single clone F1 shatter damage is] damage and gain 3 stacks of Confusion (3 second duration), this will not grant the Mirage the Dune Cloak effect.

    In short, get more Dune Cloak and Ambush uptime in PvE, but in WvW / PvP, your opponents get to make a choice; prevent your extra dodges and ambush attacks OR take damage to deny you them. Or, try to force you to move away from the mirrors to chase them.

    I think you have a good idea. Both players have counter-measures.In addition, I think ‘’break target‘’ should be integrated into all cloning features,Experienced players are not fooled by bad AI(clone) at all.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 22, 2019

    OP must be new because .... balance has been this way since day 1 and I don't anticipate any reason for Anet to change it because of what people think of it.

    It's not about what balance teams don't know or recognize ... it's that players impose their own vision of what balance is in a game where it isn't.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 22, 2019

    @Solori.6025 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    OP must be new because .... balance has been this way since day 1 and I don't anticipate any reason for Anet to change it because of what people think of it.

    It's not about what balance teams don't know or recognize ... it's that players impose their own vision of what balance is in a game where it isn't.

    You could say that players also impose that vision onto others. When the forums cry loud enough. Anet acts.
    and they act harshly with out forethought

    I think it's a mistake to think Anet reacts because people complain on the forums ... if that was true, it doesn't happen very often that's for sure. I also don't think we can assume Anet doesn't act without thinking. Yes, there are examples where there are some harsh implementations, but they certain have shown through how they explain why they are doing things that it's not done without though.

    At another level, even if they do react harshly because of forum QQ ... then there isn't much we can do about that is there? EVeryone QQ's about almost every change ... if you believe that it's because of forum QQ, the only way to fix that is to shut down the forums. I really don't think you would see much difference in how Anet does things if that happened.

    If players enter a game (any game) with certain ideas of how things should work, you can be assured they will not question if they have the right ideas; they will always point to the game devs as the source of whats 'wrong' with the game. As long as Anet's vision is different than what players think, that will ALWAYS be the case. Players will ALWAYS think they have the 'right' ideas.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • ZeteCommander.4937ZeteCommander.4937 Member ✭✭✭

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Solori.6025 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    OP must be new because .... balance has been this way since day 1 and I don't anticipate any reason for Anet to change it because of what people think of it.

    It's not about what balance teams don't know or recognize ... it's that players impose their own vision of what balance is in a game where it isn't.

    You could say that players also impose that vision onto others. When the forums cry loud enough. Anet acts.
    and they act harshly with out forethought

    I think it's a mistake to think Anet reacts because people complain on the forums ... if that was true, it doesn't happen very often that's for sure. I also don't think we can assume Anet doesn't act without thinking. Yes, there are examples where there are some harsh implementations, but they certain have shown through how they explain why they are doing things that it's not done without though.

    At another level, even if they do react harshly because of forum QQ ... then there isn't much we can do about that is there? EVeryone QQ's about almost every change ... if you believe that it's because of forum QQ, the only way to fix that is to shut down the forums. I really don't think you would see much difference in how Anet does things if that happened.

    If players enter a game (any game) with certain ideas of how things should work, you can be assured they will not question if they have the right ideas; they will always point to the game devs as the source of whats 'wrong' with the game. As long as Anet's vision is different than what players think, that will ALWAYS be the case. Players will ALWAYS think they have the 'right' ideas.

    Some of the changes are obviously the developer's mistake. Designers have proposed the desired results but obviously failed to achieve them. For example, are mirages really good at sustained combat?

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 22, 2019

    They are excellent at sustained combat (though I think you need to tell us what that means). It's almost stupid how easy it is to play a Mirage in any situation. With the right build, you literally have to work to get killed.

    Regardless, it doesn't change what I said. Sure devs make some mistakes, but how they balance the game isn't one of them. Just because you don't like how they do it doesn't mean it's a mistake. Again, don't impose your own ideas of how the game should work; only you will always be wrong if you do that.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • Burnfall.9573Burnfall.9573 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 22, 2019

    'Mesmers treated poorly'?
    I do not think so

    GW2 EPIC (muha) GUIDE Mesmer Burst/ Oneshot + Chronomancer F5

    GW2 - Core Mesmer Roaming & Duels by Lil Tokki (remarkable gameplay)

  • praqtos.9035praqtos.9035 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    They are excellent at sustained combat (though I think you need to tell us what that means). It's almost stupid how easy it is to play a Mirage in any situation. With the right build, you literally have to work to get killed.

    Enlighten us about such absurdly good build where you have to work to get killed, will you ?

    Regardless, it doesn't change what I said. Sure devs make some mistakes, but how they balance the game isn't one of them. Just because you don't like how they do it doesn't mean it's a mistake. Again, don't impose your own ideas of how the game should work; only you will always be wrong if you do that.

    All you said is : I blindly believe anet know better than anyone what they do !
    Mirage had too long evade...? How do we solve the problem...? Shall we give 0.75s duraiton which we will give them eventually...?

    • No, lets nerf core weapon that was left alone since 2013, probably this was the reason !
    • Not enough, lets gut on crit vigor trait which many classes share in cooldown in duration and mirage vigor...
    • Bob, I think it doesnt work...
    • Okay lets make MC 0.75s and leave all the nerfs.
      CP alone caused clutter and double benefits from on phantasm summon traits,but because they couldnt come up with a new trait they decided to nerf core phantasms/utilities and only then CP.
      In other words instead go for overperforming elite they would rather nerf core first and as the last measure - elite spec. (50% nerf values... Love them)
  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 22, 2019

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    They are excellent at sustained combat (though I think you need to tell us what that means). It's almost stupid how easy it is to play a Mirage in any situation. With the right build, you literally have to work to get killed.

    Enlighten us about such absurdly good build where you have to work to get killed, will you ?

    Step 1. Search for open world domination in Mesmer forum
    Step 2. make build
    Step 3 ... enjoy soloing champion bounties

    And yes, Anet know better than anyone else ... because it's their game to design and build around their ideas, not the ideas of players. There isn't a right or wrong here. There is a vision that Anet has for how the game works. If your vision isn't like that one, it means nothing.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 22, 2019

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    They took whining side as their way of balance. Just as F3->became stun was @Lincolnbeard.1735 idea.
    All nerfs on mesmer were brought by players complaining all around, calling themselves knowledgable community, rofl. "Nerf this thing and mirage is perfect!" and this repeated itself all the time they got nerfed thing they wanted, torch, jaunt, signet of midnight, illusionary ambush, confusion, portal, axe ambush, mirage evade. Dont believe me? Look for the threads on your own if you want

    Convince yourself whatever you want. There is lots of evidence to suggest that Anet balanced to their vision of the game, including the 'common sense' evidence that suggests there is no reason to appeal to QQ on the forums in the first place. If Mirage doesn't work for you in PVP, you have other choices. Not all especs excel in every game mode. In fact most especs only excel in ONE game mode. I see no reason for Mirage to be any different. While I don't suggest Anet shouldn't try to make especs work well in all game modes, I would suggest that it's not a requirement for them to do so.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 22, 2019

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    There is lots of evidence to suggest that Anet balanced to their vision of the game.

    Just as they listen players as well but "convince yourself whatever you want".

    including the 'common sense' evidence.

    Its not when its comes to balance mesmer/thief

    That's just salt ... regardless, it's clear how Anet balances and it's not based on who QQ's the most. That's just ridiculous. If the class doesn't work for you in PVP, you have choices. Nothing says you have to stick to a class you aren't good with.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • praqtos.9035praqtos.9035 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 22, 2019

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    There is lots of evidence to suggest that Anet balanced to their vision of the game.

    Just as they listen players as well but "convince yourself whatever you want".

    including the 'common sense' evidence.

    Its not when its comes to balance mesmer/thief

    That's just salt ... regardless, it's clear how Anet balances and it's not based on who QQ's the most.

    Tell that to over 50 pages complains about chrono and mirage

    That's just ridiculous.

    Pretty much

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 22, 2019

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    There is lots of evidence to suggest that Anet balanced to their vision of the game.

    Just as they listen players as well but "convince yourself whatever you want".

    including the 'common sense' evidence.

    Its not when its comes to balance mesmer/thief

    That's just salt ... regardless, it's clear how Anet balances and it's not based on who QQ's the most.

    Tell that to over 50 pages complains about chrono and mirage

    That's just ridiculous.

    Pretty much

    It could be 100 pages ... it doesn't matter. People complaining isn't often a compelling argument for change. That's proof Anet isn't listening to QQ to get things changed. They have a vision for how things work ... and they are changing according to it.

    We got a huge thread on QQ on time gating for the new mount. Anet didn't remove the time gating though. They do things for reasons, not because players know more or are 'right'. You should be less bitter about your position as a player in a game where you don't control the changes. The good players do what they can with what they got, knowing it could change. That's standard MMO practice and good advice if you are going to play them.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 22, 2019

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    There is lots of evidence to suggest that Anet balanced to their vision of the game.

    Just as they listen players as well but "convince yourself whatever you want".

    including the 'common sense' evidence.

    Its not when its comes to balance mesmer/thief

    That's just salt ... regardless, it's clear how Anet balances and it's not based on who QQ's the most.

    Tell that to over 50 pages complains about chrono and mirage

    That's just ridiculous.

    Pretty much

    It could be 100 pages ... it doesn't matter. People complaining isn't a compelling argument for change. That's proof Anet isn't listening to QQ to get things changed. They have a vision for how things work ... and they are changing according to it.

    Thats exact proof they do. All changes were made according to QQ demands of the community and I provided more than enough examples that you prefer to ignore. Believe in whatever you want.

    No it's not. Any appeal to QQ can never be appeased by any change because people will QQ about the changes themselves.

    If your perspective is not inline with that of the people in control of the game, you will always be wrong. If you think Anet is listening to people QQing on the forum, you will not truly understand why they make changes. You will never be happy, but at least if you have the right perspective you won't be unhappy and ignorant.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • praqtos.9035praqtos.9035 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 23, 2019

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    There is lots of evidence to suggest that Anet balanced to their vision of the game.

    Just as they listen players as well but "convince yourself whatever you want".

    including the 'common sense' evidence.

    Its not when its comes to balance mesmer/thief

    That's just salt ... regardless, it's clear how Anet balances and it's not based on who QQ's the most. That's just ridiculous. If the class doesn't work for you in PVP, you have choices. Nothing says you have to stick to a class you aren't good with.

    Bs.
    I already proved in other post that ANet does balance based on forums' opinions.
    Every single nerf is preceded by a large complain on forums. EM, torch burning, blurred frenzy, vigor traits, portal, jaunt, etc you name, its not one or two, every single one. It's not salt, it's just adding one plus one. Check the balance patch and go on pvp threads just before that patch.

    On the buff side ANet does its ones but also take ideas from forums, daredevil change to exhaustion based on condition cleansing was safandula's idea, F3 to stun was mine and so on.

    ANet doesn't have a vision, they're lost without knowing where to turn balancewise.

    He is very religious and wont listen to facts, leave him be.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 23, 2019

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    There is lots of evidence to suggest that Anet balanced to their vision of the game.

    Just as they listen players as well but "convince yourself whatever you want".

    including the 'common sense' evidence.

    Its not when its comes to balance mesmer/thief

    That's just salt ... regardless, it's clear how Anet balances and it's not based on who QQ's the most. That's just ridiculous. If the class doesn't work for you in PVP, you have choices. Nothing says you have to stick to a class you aren't good with.

    Bs.
    I already proved in other post that ANet does balance based on forums' opinions.
    Every single nerf is preceded by a large complain on forums. EM, torch burning, blurred frenzy, vigor traits, portal, jaunt, etc you name, its not one or two, every single one. It's not salt, it's just adding one plus one. Check the balance patch and go on pvp threads just before that patch.

    On the buff side ANet does its ones but also take ideas from forums, daredevil change to exhaustion based on condition cleansing was safandula's idea, F3 to stun was mine and so on.

    ANet doesn't have a vision, they're lost without knowing where to turn balancewise.

    There are times where players ideas and Anet's ideas coincide but make no mistake, Anet does what they want.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ZeteCommander.4937 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    They took whining side as their way of balance. Just as F3->became stun was @Lincolnbeard.1735 idea.
    All nerfs on mesmer were brought by players complaining all around, calling themselves knowledgable community, rofl. "Nerf this thing and mirage is perfect!" and this repeated itself all the time they got nerfed thing they wanted, torch, jaunt, signet of midnight, illusionary ambush, confusion, portal, axe ambush, mirage evade. Dont believe me? Look for the threads on your own if you want

    Convince yourself whatever you want. There is lots of evidence to suggest that Anet balanced to their vision of the game, including the 'common sense' evidence that suggests there is no reason to appeal to QQ on the forums in the first place. If Mirage doesn't work for you in PVP, you have other choices. Not all especs excel in every game mode. In fact most especs only excel in ONE game mode. I see no reason for Mirage to be any different. While I don't suggest Anet shouldn't try to make especs work well in all game modes, I would suggest that it's not a requirement for them to do so.

    What's the use of this forum if you can't give official feedback on the problems in the game and publish players'real feelings about the game?Are their games just for their employees to play?If that's the case, I won't try anything else, because the design idea is so bad that I don't want to experience it again.
    I don't understand why you have to defend them all the time, even if they make an obvious mistake.Such as scepter ,They think the scepter is not doing well, so they make some changes.
    Confusing Images

    after Damage 100%->120%

    now Damage 120%->60%

    Now the sceptre is worse than it was at first. Do you think it's reasonable?

    No one said you couldn't ... just don't be surprised when your ideas don't align with how Anet wants to develop the game.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 23, 2019

    Right ... because an MMO that's is 7 years in and still being developed with the same approach since day 1 is headed right for the grave ... you nailed it.

    So when do you estimate this 'in the grave' event happening? I would really like to understand your perspective on how fast this game is being pounded into the ground because of class balance, because from where I sit, most of the patrons of this game don't give a rat's behind about it and that is why you see the game being 'driven' into the grave the the current 'superspeed' rate it's happening.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 23, 2019

    There has been Toxicity because of balance in this game since day 1 ... yet here we are 7 years later ... game still being developed. Yes, we are headed right into the early grave. :BIGROLLEYES:

    Like I said, people that QQ about balance sensationalize it. The fact is that most of the people that play this game aren't really concerned about it ... otherwise it would have already affected the game being in the grave beacuse it's been like this since day 1. What you preach doesn't match the reality of what's happening in the game and it most certainly hasn't affected Anet's direction to develop the game either.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • Zexanima.7851Zexanima.7851 Member ✭✭✭

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    There has been Toxicity because of balance in this game since day 1 ... yet here we are 7 years later ... game still being developed. Yes, we are headed right into the early grave. :BIGROLLEYES:

    Like I said, people that QQ about balance sensationalize it. The fact is that most of the people that play this game aren't really concerned about it ... otherwise it would have already affected the game being in the grave beacuse it's been like this since day 1. What you preach doesn't match the reality of what's happening in the game and it most certainly hasn't affected Anet's direction to develop the game either.

    I think Obtena is right. Most people seem to complain about balance like it's unplayable yet tons of people are still playing the game. Sure, I like to make my suggestions for changes as much as the next person but just because we may not like something doesn't mean it's bad design. People seem to think this game has some sort of hard core completive element when it really doesn't, not even ranked sPvP. It's a game targeted at the casual player, played by the casual player. Anet knows this and is going to design around them. The only time I really run into hardcore toxicity is when people start trying to treat the game like it's some super meta driven e-sport.

    No longer playing the game due to PvP being abandon.

  • Lincolnbeard.1735Lincolnbeard.1735 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 23, 2019

    Yeah just a coincidence, just a coincidence that happens every single time.
    Every one knows ANet draws ideas from players, it even happened in gw1, dervish and paragon were professions designed by players, codex arena was an idea from a players.
    Clones and phantasms on mesmer ? You got it, it was from a player on GW guru forums.
    All coincidences...

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:
    Yeah just a coincidence, just a coincidence that happens every single time.
    Every one knows ANet draws ideas from players, it even happened in gw1, dervish and paragon were professions designed by players, codex arena was an idea from a players.
    Clones and phantasms on mesmer ? You got it, it was from a player on GW guru forums.
    All coincidences...

    It's not a coincidence that people complain every time. It's just not a big deal to the majority of people that patronize this company and play the game. That's where there is no 'driven to an early grave' because of Anet's balancing approach ... as much as you want to convince your self balance is this critical feature of the game who's longevity depends on how good balance is ... it isn't.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • Solori.6025Solori.6025 Member ✭✭✭✭

    How about we put this to the test. People have been complaining about Holo and soulbeast. Let's see if anet ignores it or nerfs soulbeast and holo next patch. Pretty much will tell you what you need to know

    Tingle my stingleberry

  • Curunen.8729Curunen.8729 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 23, 2019

    There is also no question that some nerfs are simply "forced obsolescence" - examples being Elusive Mind, Evasive Mirror - where no attempt to retain any usability of the trait or skill is made, taking the easier route either temporarily or for long term until perhaps a proper balance is done.

    I would rather Anet simply delete or disable problematic skills/traits temporarily until having enough time to implement sensible changes, instead of leaving them dangling over our noses like mouldy carrots.

    Additionally the unwillingness to consider the effects of cumulative nerfs in the attempt to balance, and perhaps pride in never going back on anything when there is no continued reason for something to be as it currently is - examples being Critical Infusion and Jaunt.

    On the flipside of this is something like Scepter - this has had oscillated between similar buffs and nerfs over time, appearing as though there doesn't seem to be any overarching plan as to how it should function - rather based on momentary state of the game instead of the possibility of stepping outside this to dictate how everything should function first. For the record of course as a lay person I do not know the real challenges they face in the workplace regarding this.

    Certainly mirage is still ok - even if on a shaky foundation of a single grandmaster trait (IH) and little in terms of reasonable variety (good builds of course - not talking about some random build that's eaten for breakfast) - but this doesn't dismiss the apparent lackadaisical approach of Anet to their balance, especially given the explanations (or lack of explanation) they have given over the last year or so as to why certain things were done in the way that they were.

    IH hybrid | My ears, how are you! | Kourna Jackrabbit for default Springer

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 23, 2019

    @Ansau.7326 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    There is lots of evidence to suggest that Anet balanced to their vision of the game.

    Just as they listen players as well but "convince yourself whatever you want".

    including the 'common sense' evidence.

    Its not when its comes to balance mesmer/thief

    That's just salt ... regardless, it's clear how Anet balances and it's not based on who QQ's the most. That's just ridiculous. If the class doesn't work for you in PVP, you have choices. Nothing says you have to stick to a class you aren't good with.

    How wrong you are.

    • Hundreds of posts crying about phantasms = let's nerf 50% damage of 2 phantasms doing 3k damage in 3s, and nerf burning coz 3 stacks every 30s is too much.
    • Hundreds of posts crying about boonshare = boon traits getting nerfed beyond useless.
    • Hundreds of posts crying about EM = In Gw1 we got Smiter's Booned, in Gw2 nerfs get EM'ed.
    • Hundreds of posts crying about Mirage dodge = Mirage Cloak being nerfed and vigor uptime becoming a joke.
    • Hundreds of posts crying about condis = Let's put 5-6 hard condi nerfs at the same time so forum mods can breathe.
    • Hundreds of posts crying about Confusing Images = Confusing Images gets 50% damage nerf even if was far from being highest damage skill.

    Meanwhile, Revs have broken hammer damage and daredevils have perma evade build for 3.5 years while Soulbeast and Holo have broken damage paired with broken passive sustain for 1.5 years. Working as intended bois.

    Everybody else does +7k in single hits, no problem. Mesmer does it in a 7 hit, +2s channel skill, NERF THAT KITTEN YOU CRAZY DEVS BREAKING DIS GAAAME!!!!
    PD: And it gets nerfed.

    Crying posts are simply coincidental. There are LOTS of changes that are NOT related to players complaints. Anet has a vision. They implement it. 1000's of complaints, a handful of them are bound to be inline with that vision. You're own post PROVES it ... if Anet is changing the game based on crying posts, why are things in the game that people still crying about? That makes no sense.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 23, 2019

    @Twilight Tempest.7584 said:
    @Obtena.7952, how can you be 100% certain Anet doesn't ever consider and act on player feedback? Unless you work for them or have some kind of inside knowledge?

    I didn't say they didn't. I said they do what they want. In otherwords, Anet isn't simply compelled by QQ threads on the forums like some people here are suggesting.

    Let's try this ... if Anet is primarily listening to the QQ threads players make on the forum ... why don't we have balance yet?

    Anet balancing to QQ is a zero sum game, so how can any reasonable person think that's why they make changes?

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 24, 2019

    @Heartpains.7312 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    I didn't say they didn't. I said they do what they want. In otherwords, Anet isn't simply compelled by QQ threads on the forums like some people here are suggesting.

    Let's try this ... if Anet is primarily listening to the QQ threads players make on the forum ... why don't we have balance yet?

    Anet balancing to QQ is a zero sum game, so how can any reasonable person think that's why they make changes?

    You are being delusional .... WAAAAY too delusional, to say that the QQ have no effect on their balance.. I really don't know what to say except that you are being delusional .

    Another thing is, this is not rock, paper and scissor, you can't really balance games, to put it simple, you can't achieve balance, we hope that changes makes things close to being balanced, but there are things that are obviously related to QQ.

    As for another thing here is something for you:
    Some players: Perma stealth is wrong and needs to go.
    Some other players: It is fine and L2P.
    Even more of the other players : The thief can't contest the point so it is fine.
    OTHER players .. : If you take away perma stealth give us something else.
    You see the issue with some of the balance problems or you need a slap to wake up? by the way, people who say perma stealth is fine also needs a slap to wake up as well.

    Obtena wake up xD

    No, I'm not ... but I agree, you can't balance games. That's why it's nonsense to think Anet is primarily driven to make game changes by forum QQ. Put it this way ... if there were no player inputs, Anet would be changing the game anyways, so forum QQ is definitely not necessary for Anet to implement their idea of the game.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

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