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What's up with this???

So i have been trying to get my dragonhunter ready for raiding. Using snowcrows for build and rotation, and my gear being mostly exotic berserkers with a few ascended trinkets, i manage to get between 18k-20k dps on the golem.

Just for fun i brought my boosted revenant into the golem and with an open world build, and a mix if the boosted soldiers gear and berserkers gear, i was able to constantly get 18.5k dps only using the sword auto-attack with impossible odds upkept.

Something isn't right here. Why learn a somewhat difficult rotation on my dragonhunter, when my suboptimal build/gear revenant can get the same results with a single upkeep ability and auto attack?

Comments

  • @melandru.3876

    Im not worried about a raid group, i have that taken care of.

    And even if i messed up the rotation a little, we're comparing it to NO ROTATION AT ALL

    There is still a disparity between these two classes

  • Ivantreil.3092Ivantreil.3092 Member ✭✭✭

    Welcome to the condi engi club, take a seat :P

  • melandru.3876melandru.3876 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 22, 2019

    @Matsumori Oukanishi.8794 said:
    @melandru.3876

    Im not worried about a raid group, i have that taken care of.

    And even if i messed up the rotation a little, we're comparing it to NO ROTATION AT ALL

    There is still a disparity between these two classes

    https://snowcrows.com/raids/builds/guardian/dragonhunter/power/ 33k dps
    https://discretize.eu/builds/guardian/power-dragonhunter

    you didn't mess up a little, you messed up complelty. you reached nearly half of the dps the build is capable off.
    if you call power herald an equal, or even a better replacement for power dh then we might aswell end this discussion right now

    power herald is the class you play, if you have only 1 hand. it takes 2 ,3 buttons (2 if you have autoatatck, on actual autoattack)
    the benefit: every blind and disabled person can play, and enjoy gw2
    the downside: any capable/potent player will avoid you like the plague

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 22, 2019

    Messed up rotation can indeed end up being lower dps than a pure auto. One good example at one time was thief - i remember when i tried a staff build for the first time, i was messing up my rota so badly, that by abandoning it and sticking to auto i gained like 8k dps. Although thief was quite an extreme case.

    In this case, you are definitely messing up your dh rotation badly, because you should not dip below 20k even if your rotation is very messy, as long as you remember some basic rules (like keeping f1 and symbols up for bursts. or just even remembering to use them at all)

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • melandru.3876melandru.3876 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 22, 2019

    but since you seem to like rev

    https://snowcrows.com/raids/builds/revenant/renegade/alacrity/

    give this a try,n it's also a melee focused rev build but this one is actually very useful and sought after since you give plenty of group support

    (10-man alacrity, 10-man might, protection and soulcleave summit)

    dps-wise it's only 5k below power herald

    power renegade also uses shiro for impossible odds, but the fun thing is clever using of your energy, skills and swap at the correct times to gain full potential

  • Ok I see, I didn't know I was messing up the rotation that bad. Thanks everyone for your advice

  • @melandru.3876

    I noticed that on the two links you shared for power dragonhunter, they have different rotations.

    I have been trying to get down the snowcrows rotation that has 4 weapon swaps and 48 steps, but the discretize link has only 2 weapon swaps and 16 steps.

    Which is correct? I think I could easily get down the discretize rotation, but trying to remember/get down the snowcrows rotation has been a nightmare

  • melandru.3876melandru.3876 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 22, 2019

    @Matsumori Oukanishi.8794 said:
    @melandru.3876

    I noticed that on the two links you shared for power dragonhunter, they have different rotations.

    I have been trying to get down the snowcrows rotation that has 4 weapon swaps and 48 steps, but the discretize link has only 2 weapon swaps and 16 steps.

    Which is correct? I think I could easily get down the discretize rotation, but trying to remember/get down the snowcrows rotation has been a nightmare

    both are correct.

    the snowcrows one is generally for raids
    the discretize one is generally for fractals

    regarding different rotations (they are not that different, if not identical)

    the opening is what it says it iss, an opening (also known as burst) then it goes into a loop that will endless repeats itself (rotation)
    the dicretize one is explained beginner-friendly but it leaves out autoattacks and stuff (you can't just skillspam, you'll allways have to fill in downtimes with autoattacks)

    but by all means if it works for you, just go with discretize. know your class, know your build, know your rotation and know what to switch to when needed (no build is written ins tone, somethimes swapping a utility for a different one can be the change from a bad experience, to a smooth run (like wall of reflection, stability when doing the jumping puzzles, you name it)

    once you figured that out, a good dragonhunter is allways welcome because they provide utility ontop of supreme dps

    reading a step by step rotation is and will look confusing. best is just to watch a demonstration video at slow motion.(youtube 0.5 speed works perfect) personally i remember it faster if i see it in action instead of seing it on paper

  • Thorstienn.1642Thorstienn.1642 Member ✭✭✭

    @Matsumori Oukanishi.8794 said:
    Something isn't right here. Why learn a somewhat difficult rotation on my dragonhunter, when my suboptimal build/gear revenant can get the same results with a single upkeep ability and auto attack?

    Wrong deduction here. Your suboptimal gear revenant gets the same results as your suboptimal rotation on DH.

    The answer to your question is simple; you learn the somewhat difficult rotation on your DH so you can get a significantly higher result (33k) than your suboptimal build/gear revenant using a single upkeep and AA

  • Well kitten....

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 22, 2019

    @Matsumori Oukanishi.8794 said:
    @melandru.3876

    I noticed that on the two links you shared for power dragonhunter, they have different rotations.

    I have been trying to get down the snowcrows rotation that has 4 weapon swaps and 48 steps, but the discretize link has only 2 weapon swaps and 16 steps.

    Which is correct? I think I could easily get down the discretize rotation, but trying to remember/get down the snowcrows rotation has been a nightmare

    Depends what you want to achieve.
    Personally, i'd start not with learning rotation, but with learning the basic rules of the class. Once those become instinctive (and once you will understand why they are here), you can learn more strict rotation. One reason why i'd do it that way is that loose rotation is already quite good enough on semi-casual level, and can be easily achieved, but strict rota is much, much harder to pull off. Another is that understanding all those helps you to recover after the (unavoidable) moments where your strict rota breaks apart due to something unforeseen happening.

    The basic rules:
    1. spear of justice (f1) is your dps boost. As long as the chain is up, you get +10% to your dps. That's why it's good to time your bursts to happen when that boost is up.
    2. symbols (greastword 4 and scepter 2) deal damage, but at the same time they are a dps boost. They grant you +10% bonus to dps, as long as you're staying in the symbol. Again, time your bursts/heavy dps attacks to take advantage of this bonus, but also pay attention to positioning, in order not to walk out of them (symbol needs to be under boss, but in a place where you can stand in it. Especially important for scepter 2)
    3. Whirling wrath (gs 2) is best used after gs 4 (or generally within a symbol). Not only due to the abovementioned bonus, but also due to added damage from comboing in the symbol's field. Additionally, it's best used within boss' hitbox, as it causes all blades to hot the target, instead of some traveling uselessly into empty areas.
    4. Do not interrupt greatsword attack chain. Third skill in the chain is the strongest, so interrupting the chain due to using other skill/dodging/etc is a dps loss (not an issue with scepter, since its auto has no chain skills).
    The last one is a general advice for practically any class. You'd be surprised how much dps you can lose this way.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • @Astralporing.1957

    Thanks! Yeah one thing i know I'm doingvwringvnow is interrupting my auto attack chain on the dragonhunter

  • Shikaru.7618Shikaru.7618 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 22, 2019

    @Matsumori Oukanishi.8794 said:
    @Astralporing.1957

    Thanks! Yeah one thing i know I'm doingvwringvnow is interrupting my auto attack chain on the dragonhunter

    While interrupting auto chains is a loss, it's not the difference between 20k and 33k. Honestly easiest way to help you improve is if you record yourself on the golem so we can figure out exactly what you're doing wrong. Also double check traits.

    Edit: Also something super basic to note. Do you have melee assist off and using Whriling wrath in the center of the golem hitbox?

  • @Shikaru.7618 said:

    @Matsumori Oukanishi.8794 said:
    @Astralporing.1957

    Thanks! Yeah one thing i know I'm doingvwringvnow is interrupting my auto attack chain on the dragonhunter

    While interrupting auto chains is a loss, it's not the difference between 20k and 33k. Honestly easiest way to help you improve is if you record yourself on the golem so we can figure out exactly what you're doing wrong. Also double check traits.

    Edit: Also something super basic to note. Do you have melee assist off and using Whriling wrath in the center of the golem hitbox?

    After playing my Guardian more, I'm now wanting to get more serious about playing in fractals. I can follow along with most of the tips here but I'm not familiar with what "melee assist" and center hit box means.

  • maxwelgm.4315maxwelgm.4315 Member ✭✭✭

    There is no way for us to know exactly which part of the rotation you're missing. But I have a strong suspicion, you're missing the dps bonus from symbols you get from using gs2 inside of a symbol, and perhaps most importantly, you might be somewhat messing up and/or completely skipping the burst phase. From my short experience with training raids, this is where most people miss the rotation completely, and I've seen many, many players actually skip the opening rotations and stick solely to the loop which they have no idea how much of a loss it is inside of an actual fight (where you will more often than you might think, actually have the cds ready for more than one burst per fight).

    As for why won't people simply auto attack with revenant, well that's actually true, it would be pretty easy to do that. It would also be pretty easy even after the scourge nerf to bring 6 scourges all the time everytime for all time because their collective DPS from ramming the keyboard is more than enough even for Dhuum CM. But that's just not how the community developed and it has been more or less agreed upon that we should bet on optimization to increase success instead of finding safety in easy rotations. There is no way to objectively defend one or the other from our side, only Anet actually has statistics on how often encounters fail and/or how often said failures were attempts to play the meta comp as opposed to "AA machines". You can create your own groups full of easy classes if you want, or you can learn the harder rotations with also higher damage cap potential. Personally I think learning rotations is fun so I do that, but I'm not gonna attempt claiming like others surely will, that this is somehow the best way possible to complete this easy group content (in fact, it's probably overdoing it).

  • XECOR.2814XECOR.2814 Member ✭✭✭

    @melandru.3876 said:
    you want the truth, or the harsh truth?

    the truth is, you royally kitten-ed up your dragonhunter rotation. and not even a little

    the harsh truth is, if you can't do any better (after following a rotation) stick to 111111111 and form your own groups, with your rules.
    don't join p+f (exp) groups, don't join high kp/li groups. that is not for you

    join "casual for fun, all welcome" groups
    this will let you play the content, without the drama that will come after (you getting kicked)
    without the drama does not include trollfiestas and wipefiestas

    Truth is if he can 111 to get 20k dps in exp group he would still be among top dps. Another truth is that only ~5%pugs who lfg are exp/high li+kp ones. 80% are the ones who want to clear the raid without trouble in a fairly decent time so it doesnt feel like they wasted their time. Rest are training. The game is casual, the skill ceiling is very low and personally anyone who tries to separate casual and "pro" player in this game sounds really dumb to me.

    As for op, i would just say that the overall results are balanced, not their way of achieving it. This is Anet's philosophy so if you dont agree with it you have to deal with it. On the other hand you are also not doing perfect rotations on either class to get accurate results anyway.

  • thrag.9740thrag.9740 Member ✭✭✭

    OP are you sure you put standard boons on yourself, and vuln on the golem? That's a pretty important part of benchmarking, and its one that new players often don't realize.

  • Shikaru.7618Shikaru.7618 Member ✭✭✭

    @Lady Vanithy.6495 said:

    @Shikaru.7618 said:

    @Matsumori Oukanishi.8794 said:
    @Astralporing.1957

    Thanks! Yeah one thing i know I'm doingvwringvnow is interrupting my auto attack chain on the dragonhunter

    While interrupting auto chains is a loss, it's not the difference between 20k and 33k. Honestly easiest way to help you improve is if you record yourself on the golem so we can figure out exactly what you're doing wrong. Also double check traits.

    Edit: Also something super basic to note. Do you have melee assist off and using Whriling wrath in the center of the golem hitbox?

    After playing my Guardian more, I'm now wanting to get more serious about playing in fractals. I can follow along with most of the tips here but I'm not familiar with what "melee assist" and center hit box means.

    Melee assist is an option that can be toggled in f11. When it's on, you cannot walk through the hitbox of your selected target. Turning it off allows you to stand inside your selected targets hitbox which is very beneficial for skills like whirling wrath because all of the projectiles it shoots out in random directions now will hit your primary target instead. Try it out.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 23, 2019

    @Shikaru.7618 said:

    @Matsumori Oukanishi.8794 said:
    @Astralporing.1957

    Thanks! Yeah one thing i know I'm doingvwringvnow is interrupting my auto attack chain on the dragonhunter

    While interrupting auto chains is a loss, it's not the difference between 20k and 33k.

    The last 6k or so come from precise timing of the rotation. If you are just a little bit slow, your dps values go down significantly. I wouldn't expect any new player to get to 30k even if they follow the rotation without fault and make no mistakes (which, for someone new to the rota, would already be an excellent accomplishment). It comes with the experience and a ton of practice (and sometimes not even with it - if you don't have good sense of timing, or just can't press keys fast enough, you may never get to that point actually).

    You also do need to take into consideration that OP is running mostly exotics (as he said, full exotics with only a few ascended trinkets - so i assume exotic weapon, which alone is ~6% dps loss). Still, you're right, it's likely more than just autoattack, although i'm pretty sure it's about at least one of the points i mentioned above in addition to auto. Especially needing to whirling wrath inside the hitbox is something that's easy to miss (with melee assist being default setting, and all that).

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • melandru.3876melandru.3876 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @XECOR.2814 said:

    @melandru.3876 said:
    you want the truth, or the harsh truth?

    the truth is, you royally kitten-ed up your dragonhunter rotation. and not even a little

    the harsh truth is, if you can't do any better (after following a rotation) stick to 111111111 and form your own groups, with your rules.
    don't join p+f (exp) groups, don't join high kp/li groups. that is not for you

    join "casual for fun, all welcome" groups
    this will let you play the content, without the drama that will come after (you getting kicked)
    without the drama does not include trollfiestas and wipefiestas

    Truth is if he can 111 to get 20k dps in exp group he would still be among top dps. Another truth is that only ~5%pugs who lfg are exp/high li+kp ones. 80% are the ones who want to clear the raid without trouble in a fairly decent time so it doesnt feel like they wasted their time. Rest are training. The game is casual, the skill ceiling is very low and personally anyone who tries to separate casual and "pro" player in this game sounds really dumb to me.

    As for op, i would just say that the overall results are balanced, not their way of achieving it. This is Anet's philosophy so if you dont agree with it you have to deal with it. On the other hand you are also not doing perfect rotations on either class to get accurate results anyway.

    top dps as herald, priceless

  • maxwelgm.4315maxwelgm.4315 Member ✭✭✭

    @melandru.3876 said:

    @XECOR.2814 said:

    @melandru.3876 said:
    you want the truth, or the harsh truth?

    the truth is, you royally kitten-ed up your dragonhunter rotation. and not even a little

    the harsh truth is, if you can't do any better (after following a rotation) stick to 111111111 and form your own groups, with your rules.
    don't join p+f (exp) groups, don't join high kp/li groups. that is not for you

    join "casual for fun, all welcome" groups
    this will let you play the content, without the drama that will come after (you getting kicked)
    without the drama does not include trollfiestas and wipefiestas

    Truth is if he can 111 to get 20k dps in exp group he would still be among top dps. Another truth is that only ~5%pugs who lfg are exp/high li+kp ones. 80% are the ones who want to clear the raid without trouble in a fairly decent time so it doesnt feel like they wasted their time. Rest are training. The game is casual, the skill ceiling is very low and personally anyone who tries to separate casual and "pro" player in this game sounds really dumb to me.

    As for op, i would just say that the overall results are balanced, not their way of achieving it. This is Anet's philosophy so if you dont agree with it you have to deal with it. On the other hand you are also not doing perfect rotations on either class to get accurate results anyway.

    top dps as herald, priceless

    I've done many MO pug runs (in fact, most of the pug MO runs I've ever done) where it was usually one person sitting at ~25k boss dps and the rest all below 18k. That's with all kinds of boons at 100% when Chaos Chrono was still a thing. Also doesn't matter if it's a high LI group or 30+ Deimos KP group. None of us in here are in any position to defend either playstyle, the fact is that both can easily complete the content. Not only that, but also many players fail miserably at adapting to harder rotations but gain a false sense of security from playing with better players that can carry them, specially if they have a regular full clear static and don't really contribute much to that - when it's time for them to pug on alts and such, they show their true colors. If anything these folks are the ones who should be making 111111111 groups instead of pretending to have actually learned the content.

  • Bawi.9541Bawi.9541 Member ✭✭

    only read OP tbh.

    1) Guardian GS auto is 19k (or so) too
    2) The guides on some of the sites are... rough... The 33k guide is labeled as 33k on small golem; then the run is done on big golem (with scepter 2 ecks dee). The guide has a short looping rotation that always links the procession of blades trap to GS; in the vid he only links it to spear and ANY symbol (which obviously has a tighter fit to when it comes off CD). The guide doesn't mention GS 3 nor 5; the video uses both. One of those guide sites uses F1 spear every 10 seconds rotationally, etc.
    Also, the fact that is lists a rotation at all. Guardian works on a priority list, which obviously becomes a loop at some point if you're only doing golems. But as soon as there's any mechanics in a fight, you can either fall back on understanding the priority list, or you're kitten.

    DH is about stacking all the % multipliers it has with its big damage skills, and finding a balance between holding skills to sync them with the next 'burst' (the most % damage multipliers possible) or using them quickly to get them to recharge faster (thus more casts per unit of time). And about keeping symbols down, not randomly canceling GS auto chain, using skills like SoJ to replace scepter autos (scepter symbol -> Sword of Justice). About finding a good opener for the fight, which tends to be really similar.

    Besides that, not sure it still works like that, but you could speed up both the after cast delay of Scepter2 and GS4.

  • Asum.4960Asum.4960 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 24, 2019

    @Bawi.9541 said:
    Guardian works on a priority list

    Exactly.
    Especially with DH I wouldn't actually recommend learning a static rotation, at least not at first, but to understand the class in terms of skill priorities to achieve the highest possible damage in any situation.
    Not everything is a golem and interruptions happen. A great thing about DH is that it's easy to get back to doing high DPS from any interruption by knowing skill priorities.

    Usually at it's most basic form it's Procession of Blades, Symbol of Wrath, Spear of Justice, Whirling Wrath (Inside the Hitbox), Swap, Symbol of Punishment, Sword of Justice.
    Then on Scepter you generally keep AA'ing/using Swords of Justice and filling with focus 4+5 until weapon swap, on GS you can fill with GS3 and 5, as well as AA's after, while waiting for the Trap+Symbol+Spear+Whirl combination to come available again, or utilizing it partially.

    Once you have that priority down by heart, you can refine the process by looking at exact rotations to squeeze out optional DPS for when everything goes right, as well as the initial burst.

    Another thing beginners often miss when comparing DPS is giving themselves unified buffs, and even more so, putting conditions like Vulnerability on the Golem, which makes a huge difference.

    But just as general thing, don't just look at a site to copy a build and then try to exactly replicate a rotation without knowing anything about it.
    Try to understand WHY you are doing the things you are doing before working on perfecting doing them.
    Stuff gets a lot easier to remember too when you know why you are doing them.

    R.I.P. Build Templates, 15.10.2019

  • yusayu.3629yusayu.3629 Member ✭✭✭

    You must have massively messed up your DGH rotation. It's one of the easiest classes to play and get consistent, above-average results with tbh.