Meta obsession - Page 2 — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Meta obsession

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  • Aza.2105Aza.2105 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 27, 2019

    @Khalisto.5780 said:
    Im not even bother going through your text wall, there is a reason meta builds are meta, and it's because they perform better in almost any environment and with any player, low or high skilled.

    Game is not blocking from play whichever build you want, just play the builds you have fun and if the build is viable you can even climb to high plat as we still seeing eles up in the ranks

    There are lots of other builds to be discovered. Many gw2 players lack innovation and are just followers. Its funny because gw1 was quite the opposite in many ways.

  • Jack Redline.5379Jack Redline.5379 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @DanAlcedo.3281 said:

    Fun = Winning

    Winning = Meta Builds

    Fun = Meta Builds

    not true

    Fun = Winning yes
    Winning = Good Performance of you and your team
    Winning = Fun cuz of the satisfaction caused by results of your and your teams good performance

  • Jack Redline.5379Jack Redline.5379 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Aza.2105 said:

    There are lots of other builds to be discovered. Many gw2 players lack innovation and are just followers. Its funny because gw1 was quite the opposite in many ways.

    he is right you know

  • Jack Redline.5379Jack Redline.5379 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Khalisto.5780 said:
    Im not even bother going through your text wall, there is a reason meta builds are meta, and it's because they perform better in almost any environment and with any player, low or high skilled.

    Game is not blocking from play whichever build you want, just play the builds you have fun and if the build is viable you can even climb to high plat as we still seeing eles up in the ranks

    Also to interprete what you are saying here.
    This is what you just said

    ''I don't care what you've got to say on this matter the majority thinks meta is good so meta is good. You can try playing whatever you can but you will probably not succeed since you dont run meta.''

    Just read what you wrote and compare it. This is a good example of why I made this thread. Ppl thoughtlessly defending meta cuz it is gods gift to GW2 ppl

  • Arcaedus.7290Arcaedus.7290 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Jack Redline.5379

    Meta builds were not CREATED by a few stuck-up pvpers having a God complex, and deciding what is best for all of us.

    Meta builds were DISCOVERED by these pvpers. These people spend all their time doing pvp. They know a thing or two about what works and what doesn't work in an environment where you have a defined goal to meet. Through experience, these players discovered what the most effective builds are, through a combination of educated guessing plus trial & error.

    The meta-build websites like Metabattle keep track of these builds, not for the purpose of rating which ones are or are not fun, but to rather to account for which ones are the most effective at fitting into a team of 5 for a conquest game mode and winning.

    I realized this long ago... this game doesn't have infinite possibilities (or even an extremely large number) in terms of builds. Some builds on some classes just work so well, they outshine all other possible builds on that class. You can improve your personal and mechanical skills, and you can improve your pvp/map/rotational knowledge, but after that, this game is build-wars 2 with maybe one or two dozen builds you can really win on.

  • Khalisto.5780Khalisto.5780 Member ✭✭✭

    @Aza.2105 said:

    @Khalisto.5780 said:
    Im not even bother going through your text wall, there is a reason meta builds are meta, and it's because they perform better in almost any environment and with any player, low or high skilled.

    Game is not blocking from play whichever build you want, just play the builds you have fun and if the build is viable you can even climb to high plat as we still seeing eles up in the ranks

    There are lots of other builds to be discovered. Many gw2 players lack innovation and are just followers. Its funny because gw1 was quite the opposite in many ways.

    game is 7 years old now, I don't think there're a lot of build to be discovered, most viable things were already in meta once, they come and go as the patches come out, making them more or less viable. I've never played gw1, but from what I know the game had a ton of more options than gw2.

  • Aza.2105Aza.2105 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 27, 2019

    @Khalisto.5780 said:

    @Aza.2105 said:

    @Khalisto.5780 said:
    Im not even bother going through your text wall, there is a reason meta builds are meta, and it's because they perform better in almost any environment and with any player, low or high skilled.

    Game is not blocking from play whichever build you want, just play the builds you have fun and if the build is viable you can even climb to high plat as we still seeing eles up in the ranks

    There are lots of other builds to be discovered. Many gw2 players lack innovation and are just followers. Its funny because gw1 was quite the opposite in many ways.

    game is 7 years old now, I don't think there're a lot of build to be discovered, most viable things were already in meta once, they come and go as the patches come out, making them more or less viable. I've never played gw1, but from what I know the game had a ton of more options than gw2.

    No there is. The problem is the crowd has been roughly the same for 7 years. Before metabattle there was "following my favorite gw2 streamer". Because you know if he/she says its good then it must be! Gw1 community embraced build making, creating counters to the meta. While the gw2 community just sits on their butt crying how strong the meta is when there are tools to shut meta down. They just don't use them. In gw1 when a team knew that they were going to be up against a certain group build then they would make a build to counter it and win. Gw2? The players run the same meta to defeat the meta and complain when they lose.

    If you notice Anet balance patch notes, they tend to buff under used skills so that players will start to use them. It never happens usually though, players will glance over the notes then pretend like the buffs never happened UNTIL it appears on meta or they find out some top player is using it. Then it becomes known. Like I said, gw2 players lack innovation. It could be that this is a different generation of players than those from gw1, so they just want premade stuff.

  • Khalisto.5780Khalisto.5780 Member ✭✭✭

    @Jack Redline.5379 said:

    @Khalisto.5780 said:
    Im not even bother going through your text wall, there is a reason meta builds are meta, and it's because they perform better in almost any environment and with any player, low or high skilled.

    Game is not blocking from play whichever build you want, just play the builds you have fun and if the build is viable you can even climb to high plat as we still seeing eles up in the ranks

    Also to interprete what you are saying here.
    This is what you just said

    ''I don't care what you've got to say on this matter the majority thinks meta is good so meta is good. You can try playing whatever you can but you will probably not succeed since you dont run meta.''

    Just read what you wrote and compare it. This is a good example of why I made this thread. Ppl thoughtlessly defending meta cuz it is gods gift to GW2 ppl

    To gw2 and all other games out there, let me now if you find a game perfectly balance.

    Doesnt matter how balanced a game is, something will always be at least 1% better than another and this 1% will make the difference in the highest level gameplay and then someone will always complain about it

  • whoknocks.4935whoknocks.4935 Member ✭✭✭✭

    And people still don't understand that meta builds will always exist.

    You can balance the game even 1000 times, there will be always that 5-10 builds which will be stronger and effective to use over others.

    The problem are not meta builds themselves, the problem is how a completely kitten player can pick up holo or warrior or boonbeast, or duo fb-scourge or whatever and reach at least low plat with zero to little effort with just few days using the profession, the skill level to play certain build and specs is lower and lower every expansion, remember when core engi had to use multiple kits and over 30 skills comboed to be effective, look engi now, both scrapper and holo just press 2 or 3 godmode keys off cooldown and they are good to go.

  • Aeolus.3615Aeolus.3615 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 27, 2019

    Meta in gw2 here is all about spam gameplay and damage mostly....

    Some supposed meta builds needs some logical tone down, like having true tradeoffs.

  • Khalisto.5780Khalisto.5780 Member ✭✭✭

    @Aza.2105 said:

    @Khalisto.5780 said:

    @Aza.2105 said:

    @Khalisto.5780 said:
    Im not even bother going through your text wall, there is a reason meta builds are meta, and it's because they perform better in almost any environment and with any player, low or high skilled.

    Game is not blocking from play whichever build you want, just play the builds you have fun and if the build is viable you can even climb to high plat as we still seeing eles up in the ranks

    There are lots of other builds to be discovered. Many gw2 players lack innovation and are just followers. Its funny because gw1 was quite the opposite in many ways.

    game is 7 years old now, I don't think there're a lot of build to be discovered, most viable things were already in meta once, they come and go as the patches come out, making them more or less viable. I've never played gw1, but from what I know the game had a ton of more options than gw2.

    No there is. The problem is the crowd has been roughly the same for 7 years. Before metabattle there was "following my favorite gw2 streamer". Because you know if he/she says its good then it must be! Gw1 community embraced build making, creating counters to the meta. While the gw2 community just sits on their butt crying how strong the meta is when there are tools to shut meta down. They just don't use them. In gw1 when a team knew that they were going to be up against a certain group build then they would make a build to counter it and win. Gw2? The players run the same meta to defeat the meta and complain when they lose.

    If you notice Anet balance patch notes, they tend to buff under used skills so that players will start to use them. It never happens usually though, players will glance over the notes then pretend like the buffs never happened UNTIL it appears on meta or they find out some top player is using it. Then it becomes known. Like I said, gw2 players lack innovation. It could be that this is a different generation of players than those from gw1, so they just want premade stuff.

    So, why don't you do it yourself, community would be glad if you could find something that beats scrapper with certain ease and still be viable in the other aspects , not something that beat scrapper and dies to everything else.

    Meta evolves but not at the speed you want maybe, seasons ago the defense warrior was the strongest warrior build, than came the tether and now the strenght dagger, shortly after that the current boonbeast was posted in the forums, the build quickly became popular and had its rise and fall.

    If you can come up with something new and consistently perform top 100 ppl might listen to you.

    I think it's naive to think the higher ranks play the builds they play because they are told to, I think they test a lot of things and when they compare to what's in the table it's not as good, and if it's it'll take sometime to get popular. And then you can't expect a counter to this new build withing 2 days.

    I have a mesmer build that can almost perma reflect projectiles, it's great against DE and rangers but it's worse than any mesmer condi duel builds for every other match up.

    There're bigger games like dota and lol, and there's still a meta in this game, even with a fully commited team to be always trying to nerf the current meta or making a new meta. So far I haven't heard of a game perfectly balanced, talking about mmo, which most of resources are focused in pve, it's an even worst case.

  • Khalisto.5780Khalisto.5780 Member ✭✭✭

    @whoknocks.4935 said:
    And people still don't understand that meta builds will always exist.

    You can balance the game even 1000 times, there will be always that 5-10 builds which will be stronger and effective to use over others.

    The problem are not meta builds themselves, the problem is how a completely kitten player can pick up holo or warrior or boonbeast, or duo fb-scourge or whatever and reach at least low plat with zero to little effort with just few days using the profession, the skill level to play certain build and specs is lower and lower every expansion, remember when core engi had to use multiple kits and over 30 skills comboed to be effective, look engi now, both scrapper and holo just press 2 or 3 godmode keys off cooldown and they are good to go.

    ppl refuse to accept that

    They either want to randomly pick up their weapons, skills and traits and be equally effective as a well thought build or their favorite class/spec is not in the meta and they come to forums to QQ, or their build are in the meta and get nerf and then they come to forums to QQ

  • Jack Redline.5379Jack Redline.5379 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @whoknocks.4935 said:
    And people still don't understand that meta builds will always exist.

    but i am not arguing that some builds are better or not I am saying that the community simply inclines so bad on the fact that they already have top 9 builds served to their hands it is killing room for any other creativity and discovering and that it creates toxic and salty surroundings for new and old players who just might want to see if there is other way
    Not to metion that the Meta ppl follow now is not bullet proof and it is counterable by off meta builds

  • Jack Redline.5379Jack Redline.5379 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Khalisto.5780 said:

    ppl refuse to accept that

    They either want to randomly pick up their weapons, skills and traits and be equally effective as a well thought build or their favorite class/spec is not in the meta and they come to forums to QQ, or their build are in the meta and get nerf and then they come to forums to QQ

    AGAIN I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT THE BUILD EFFICIENCY HERE
    I am talking about the fact that the community is so inclined to THE META that they are toxic and salty to anyone who thinks otherwise not to mention that THE META is no flawless and is counterably by off meta builds that are looked down upon thanks to the communities way of thinking that Meta is is the gods gift to the world

    THE TITLE IS META OBSCESSION

  • Jack Redline.5379Jack Redline.5379 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Just to prove me Twice look how many ppl started automatically being salty about this thread
    bluri in the first line
    A thief that should understand his class the most since he is ''the god tier thief'' acknowledged near and far due to his games

  • Jack Redline.5379Jack Redline.5379 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Zenix.6198 said:

    If you get here again i would like to hear your oppinion on what i answered to you since you made really valid points and i would like to discuss furhter if you are interested so far yours is one of the rly good answers here so it would be appreciated

  • Widmo.3186Widmo.3186 Member ✭✭✭

    @Jack Redline.5379 said:
    IF i had a peny for each time I hear in duel Arena Spellbreaker or Herald or other Thief or even Rangers to tell me : "You are running Condi? Why that is not the meta. Swap to s/d." cuz i ran them over 5 times in a row on my condi build cuz they ran Meta build that is meant to deal with power dmg not condi dmg I would be a milionaire.

    Man, youre playing condi teef? Where have you lost your dignity...

    Dont mind me, I just randomly spam 35 skill-buttons

  • Aza.2105Aza.2105 Member ✭✭✭

    @Khalisto.5780 said:
    So, why don't you do it yourself, community would be glad if you could find something that beats scrapper with certain ease and still be viable in the other aspects , not something that beat scrapper and dies to everything else.

    Thats because there is no point. The community isn't receptive to build crafting.

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 27, 2019

    @whoknocks.4935 said:
    And people still don't understand that meta builds will always exist.

    You can balance the game even 1000 times, there will be always that 5-10 builds which will be stronger and effective to use over others.

    The problem are not meta builds themselves, the problem is how a completely kitten player can pick up holo or warrior or boonbeast, or duo fb-scourge or whatever and reach at least low plat with zero to little effort with just few days using the profession, the skill level to play certain build and specs is lower and lower every expansion, remember when core engi had to use multiple kits and over 30 skills comboed to be effective, look engi now, both scrapper and holo just press 2 or 3 godmode keys off cooldown and they are good to go.

    This^
    Classes in this game that have a higher skill ceiling and require more skill and practice to be effective on the same level of a low skill ceiling class get zero reward considering how much more punished ur mistakes are.In gw2 a face roll sustain filled class gets same mobility, burst or over all dps than classes that have less sustain or have to rely on a active style of sustain to stay alive. Then u have classes that are great at one thing but nerfed everywhere because it's great at one thing while other classes like holo as an example are just great at almost everything. The balance disparity between classes is soo bad right now.

  • Gaberen.4325Gaberen.4325 Member ✭✭✭

    @Jack Redline.5379 said:

    @Erzian.5218 said:

    spellbreaker isnt rly top notch to be used as an example here even a berserker is more dangerous now

  • Aza.2105Aza.2105 Member ✭✭✭

    @Gaberen.4325 said:

    @Jack Redline.5379 said:

    @Erzian.5218 said:

    spellbreaker isnt rly top notch to be used as an example here even a berserker is more dangerous now

    The general idea that I seen go around is that zerker is more squishy than spellbreaker. None of that is true however.

  • Jack Redline.5379Jack Redline.5379 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Widmo.3186 said:

    @Jack Redline.5379 said:
    IF i had a peny for each time I hear in duel Arena Spellbreaker or Herald or other Thief or even Rangers to tell me : "You are running Condi? Why that is not the meta. Swap to s/d." cuz i ran them over 5 times in a row on my condi build cuz they ran Meta build that is meant to deal with power dmg not condi dmg I would be a milionaire.

    Man, youre playing condi teef? Where have you lost your dignity...

    OH playing condi thief is undignified? xD 1st of all I dont play just some what kind of thief I play a Trapper
    2nd at this point of a game you got exactly 0 validity to say palying condi thief is undignified since everything is either bunker tank or one hit kill switch

  • Dirame.8521Dirame.8521 Member ✭✭

    @dominik.9721 said:
    meta builds are not only good against meta builds, like kitten do you even talk.
    meta builds faceroll any non meta builds, which is the reason they are meta - meta is what is the best / most effective.

    if you play meta you are able to compete with other meta builds, if you play non meta, you are in a disadvantage - simple as that.

    If you think Meta is "what is best and most effective", then consider this; for about a year in PvP, players went for stacking bleed over burning because we all thought that getting that sweet 25 stack was the way to go, we didn't realize at the time that burn was just 100% better simply because it has no wind up time. You technically just apply 6 stacks of bleed instantly when you apply a burn (this is before condi changes that make them what we see today).

    Then the meta changed and became; focus on burning and then cover the burn with crappy condis.

    Meta isn't what is definitely the best, meta is what people THINK is definitely the best.

  • bluri.2653bluri.2653 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 28, 2019

    Still hilarious to see all these gold players saying how op their builds are yet they are still... Stuck in G O L D. Or how many OP hidden builds that people haven't theorycrafted YET but theres so many!

    "spellbreaker isnt rly top notch to be used as an example here even a berserker is more dangerous now"

    Man I swear do you guys actually believe all that you are saying? It is delusional at its finest

    www.twitch.tv/sindrener - Rank 55 Dragons/Orange Logo/Team Aggression

  • Aza.2105Aza.2105 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 28, 2019

    @bluri.2653 said:

    "spellbreaker isnt rly top notch to be used as an example here even a berserker is more dangerous now"

    Man I swear do you guys actually believe all that you are saying? It is delusional at its finest

    Prove it wrong. The difference between the two is zerker does more damage, sb removes boons. Thats pretty much it.

  • Jack Redline.5379Jack Redline.5379 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @bluri.2653 said:
    Still hilarious to see all these gold players saying how op their builds are yet they are still... Stuck in G O L D. Or how many OP hidden builds that people haven't theorycrafted YET but theres so many!

    "spellbreaker isnt rly top notch to be used as an example here even a berserker is more dangerous now"

    Man I swear do you guys actually believe all that you are saying? It is delusional at its finest

    You are so full of yourself arent you? I havent seen a single drop of at least respect to the fact we are trying. Your behavior is equal to the one of 5 year old that has a bigger bucket on the sand pile where kids play and will laugh at others cuz parents got it for him two days ago. If you could stop being salty here that would be nice. Instead take example from others and try to be at least somewhat constructive in what you are saying.

    You want to prove we are wrong and Meta is rly good? Use some facts for example you know how you interact with other builds give examlpe = If I s 2 to enemy i deal x dmg because my build allows me to through how it is traited in x y z.

    If you just want to be salty and mean here I would ask you to leave this thread because you are 1st not helping and 2nd demining others by what you are doing here.

  • Jack Redline.5379Jack Redline.5379 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Aza.2105 said:

    @bluri.2653 said:

    "spellbreaker isnt rly top notch to be used as an example here even a berserker is more dangerous now"

    Man I swear do you guys actually believe all that you are saying? It is delusional at its finest

    Prove it wrong. The difference between the two is zerker does more damage, sb removes boons. Thats pretty much it.

    And spB has more stun oriented dmg output. And more stuns (deals dmg on interupts)

  • Aza.2105Aza.2105 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 28, 2019

    @Jack Redline.5379 said:

    @Aza.2105 said:

    @bluri.2653 said:

    "spellbreaker isnt rly top notch to be used as an example here even a berserker is more dangerous now"

    Man I swear do you guys actually believe all that you are saying? It is delusional at its finest

    Prove it wrong. The difference between the two is zerker does more damage, sb removes boons. Thats pretty much it.

    And spB has more stun oriented dmg output. And more stuns (deals dmg on interupts)

    No they don't. There is nothing in the SB trait line or skills that stun. They only have daze through full counter (if you decide to hit them), and dagger 3. Thats it. Oh they also have pull from magebane. Everything else zerker has access to. The damage they also do when interrupting isn't that high to begin with and it can't crit which is ashame.

  • Khalisto.5780Khalisto.5780 Member ✭✭✭

    @bluri.2653 said:
    Still hilarious to see all these gold players saying how op their builds are yet they are still... Stuck in G O L D. Or how many OP hidden builds that people haven't theorycrafted YET but theres so many!

    "spellbreaker isnt rly top notch to be used as an example here even a berserker is more dangerous now"

    Man I swear do you guys actually believe all that you are saying? It is delusional at its finest

    ikr

    I already gave up

    It's the same when you arguing elo hell with someone stuck, you can make a video series climbing out of their division and have every match recorded, and they'll still find an external factor to justify why you managed to do it or they didn't.

  • bluri.2653bluri.2653 Member ✭✭✭

    @Jack Redline.5379 said:

    @bluri.2653 said:
    Still hilarious to see all these gold players saying how op their builds are yet they are still... Stuck in G O L D. Or how many OP hidden builds that people haven't theorycrafted YET but theres so many!

    "spellbreaker isnt rly top notch to be used as an example here even a berserker is more dangerous now"

    Man I swear do you guys actually believe all that you are saying? It is delusional at its finest

    You are so full of yourself arent you? I havent seen a single drop of at least respect to the fact we are trying. Your behavior is equal to the one of 5 year old that has a bigger bucket on the sand pile where kids play and will laugh at others cuz parents got it for him two days ago. If you could stop being salty here that would be nice. Instead take example from others and try to be at least somewhat constructive in what you are saying.

    You want to prove we are wrong and Meta is rly good? Use some facts for example you know how you interact with other builds give examlpe = If I s 2 to enemy i deal x dmg because my build allows me to through how it is traited in x y z.

    If you just want to be salty and mean here I would ask you to leave this thread because you are 1st not helping and 2nd demining others by what you are doing here.

    There is no point being constructive with someone as delusional as you. You can get 4 teammates and come play 5v5 against us. You all run your "off meta builds" and we run all meta builds. It's gonna be 500-0.

    www.twitch.tv/sindrener - Rank 55 Dragons/Orange Logo/Team Aggression

  • Azure The Heartless.3261Azure The Heartless.3261 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 28, 2019

    So uh-
    Why are people fighting about whether meta builds are better? Meta builds and good off meta builds are two sides of the same coin, and you're proving his point.

    I am talking about the fact that the community is so inclined to THE META that they are toxic and salty to anyone who thinks otherwise not to mention that THE META is no flawless and is counterably by off meta builds that are looked down upon thanks to the communities way of thinking that Meta is is the gods gift to the world

    He's right, objectively. However, the off-meta build that can challenge meta builds are usually backed by incredible amounts of practice that most people would rather not do.

    Meta builds are important, but so is improvisation.
    Meta builds became meta because, in the current game environment, multiple people pieced together that a class could be effective at a certain role if it was played in a certain way. Ideally, that build and playstyle is not set in stone., and other builds that -aren't- meta can -become- meta if they outperform or hard counter the current standing builds. That's how "The meta" works.

    That being said, meta builds are usually the easiest, most effective/least exploitable version of whatever class they are built for, and can account for heavy amounts of player error. If you plan to run an off meta build, or a modified meta build, you should be sure that your general/fundamental game skill can compensate for whatever holes your modification create in your kit.

    At the end of the day, none of this kittening matters though. , especially not bragging about running a build someone built for general use and being good at that build. It's built for carrying, of course you'd be good at it. If you're amazing at some weird-kitten, difficult to play renegade build or something, cheers to you, you'll probably be a hot commodity at Autos.

    To get to that point, though, you will need to be fully committed to learning the ins and outs of that class AND every class you can possibly go against. That takes significant time and effort, and payoff is not guaranteed because Anet changes how traits work without warning. With that in mind, it is understandable that people would run meta (since it works), and have general success (since the qualifications of a meta build is how effective you can be as a fighter running that build with just basic knowledge about the class).

    TL;DR Run what you want, you silly goose. Just make sure you aren't dragging the team down with your ideology., whether you're for or against meta builds.
    If you want to run meta, be aware that meta can and will change, and the person running that weird build might be the next meta.
    If you want to run off, be aware that the meta can and will change, and that your build may become meta if it is effective enough/you will need to grind your kitten off to make it viable.

    [Charr Noises]
    [Plays every class]
    [JUST GIT EVEN GUDDER ITS FINE]

  • Impact.2780Impact.2780 Member ✭✭
    edited May 28, 2019

    @Jack Redline.5379 said:
    SO basically the thing is.
    META IS NOT the only right way to play this game. We have always been told GW2 is the game you can play whatever way you want and that you can be anything on any class.
    Yea not true I know but META is 1st going absolutely against this statement AND 2nd It is depriving your class from any other sort of combat you could possibly achieve with your class.
    META rn is full of bunkers since yea everything does so much dmg ppl have to play tanks.

    ........

    BUT THE THING IS META ONLY FOCUSES ON FIGHTING META BUILDS WHICH ARE ALL POWER BASED BUILDS.

    ........
    There is so few actuall condi cleansing builds out there that you could count them on the fingers of one hand. I can straight up name only 3 i srsly meet in game. Water triated Weaver, The condi transfering Engineer (dunno rn which specific elite it is maybe scrapper) and Scourge.
    These three classes are only 3 that srsly have builds that are meant to cleanse and swap condis to boons

    ........

    If you put a player who played Meta for a longer period of time and was winding up in Plat 3 all the time since Meta build carried him there thanks to the fact he fought mostly Meta based builds on the way against some dude from Gold 3 with out of the meta build based mainly on condi the Meta dude is going to get ran over like a combain not understanding what happened and the winds up here crying about it and classes get nerfed not cuz the skill actually is overperforming but because the Meta guy wasnt equiped to fight something like that.

    ........

    ...Meta is only good against Meta it cant fight anything non meta based.
    And everyone is so certain about Meta being the gods will way to go that we will never be able to prove it wrong.
    So If you got a few minutes to talk about this or to try it out in the game. I would be happy to see or talk about it here.

    Hi. No.

    Meta is not a set of builds. A build may be "in" or "out" of "the meta."

    What is the "meta?"

    Meta is short for "metagame," which, broadly speaking, is applying reasoning to the scenario.
    Considering what is out there, what you might face, and going prepared to deal with it. This can range from specifically running something to counter something specific, or building something more versatile, equipped to deal with whatever comes your way at the cost of a higher skill cap.

    This albeit very simple and low-level example provided on Wikipedia might help:

    @Wikipedia
    A special set of moves in chess can allow a player to win in four moves. Competitor A has been watching Competitor B play chess, and the past five games in a row Competitor B has attempted to use this four-move win. When Competitor A sits down to play against Competitor B, Competitor A will be metagaming if they play in a way that will give them an advantage if Competitor B repeats this line.

    So, since one particular build, in the metagame, is not "a way to play the game," your arguments stem from an entirely false premise.
    Metagaming is an approach. A methodology. How you play, depends on the build you arrived at by that approach, and other external factors such as considering:

    • Your composition; strengths/weaknesses
    • The enemy composition; strengths/weaknesses
    • How to play to your strengths or avoid the enemy's strengths to increase your chances of winning
    • Repeat the above steps from the perspective of the enemy team - what might they be planning to do to deal with your composition; how might they rotate and how can you move to counter them.
    • It can keep going, i.e. how should we prepare to deal with how they might react to how they think we are going to react based on what they have... etc.

    Get it? "You should play S/D thief BECAUSE IT'S IN THE META!" is barely metagaming. It's the lowest possible form: "That build has been proven to do well against a variety of things, so I will use it," ....while not necessarily having any knowledge of the why or how... You know? Just picking it up because - cookie-cutter style!

    Now let's take that, and read your assertions in light of what the meta actually is

    So we compare the above definition and explanation against what you are saying. You run condi because using it, you are able to deal with the builds you often see in matches? You know what that means!! Yes! Congratulations my friend, you are metagaming! You are arguing against meta, while in the true sense of the word, metagaming, yourself.
    But wait... That means... Yes! Your build is thus, a "meta" build, (albeit not, the meta build; read the rest before you shoot me). This also shows that you are wrong to say that "meta is only good against meta."

    An example?
    Thief is a prime example because it is versatile by design, as a result of metagaming. Let's explore. S/D does deal with condi thieves, too,. Those who, as already stated, merely pick up the build because he saw Bob with a higher rating than he, using it, but doesn't understand how to use it fully, will not know that you need to land steal and fight them in shortbow, landing immobilises and cluster bombing, or, if they spam while you are in stealth, simply stealth and move a safe distance away for a moment while the condi thief spams all their initiative and endurance.
    (But if you still run condi because you're better at it and you anticipate the enemy thief will not know how to fight against it, you're still metagaming.)

    So you see, meta is not the right or wrong way or the only way. I don't think anyone can argue that it's impossible to play a game without thinking. We all see it enough of the time, am I right? It is a... shall I say, "human" way? Arm yourself with knowledge and go in prepared. It is undeniable that this is the most effective way, and it does not mean that by playing something unique, you are not metagaming.

    Wait! Don't shoot! Yes, I could stop here, of course, but I'll be a bit more helpful, because I know saying something like "since you metagamed and ended up with a condi thief build, condi thief is a meta build" will cause cries of "No way!" and "That guy is insane!" and "Noob alert, L2P!"

    "Meta" also refers to the current set of builds that were created by metagaming, and BY OVERSIMPLIFICATION (i.e. technically incorrectly) that it applies to those builds TO THE EXCLUSION OF ALL OTHERS. This is because people like simple, and some find the idea of metagaming confusing or misunderstand what it actually means, and that misunderstanding can spread, resulting in an inaccurate understanding at large (e.g. this thread). This is where the term "anti-meta" comes from.

    So what is the anti-meta?

    Quite simply, it is metagaming against the meta. Let's make an example:
    1. Everything has strong condi cleanse. This leads to a shift in the meta toward power-based builds.
    2. The meta is power-based, requiring support roles and bunkers to be capable of sustaining against high damage.
    3. To deal with the tanky folk, the power-based folk sacrifice more defense for more damage - let's say, giving up some condi cleanse!
    4. Enter the anti-meta. Condition damage, is no longer meta, because power-based compositions have beaten them. But, in response to other teams running the same power-based compositions, condition cleanse is sacrificed for defence against direct damage. So, while condition damage is no longer considered optimal, it can prove effective. Condition builds become anti-meta.
    5. Sometimes this leads to a meta-shift again. Sometimes it just leads to another adjustment in the power-based compositions, e.g. 1 support role taking more cleanse and relying on his team to help him kite and stay alive via crowd-control.

    So there you have it. Meta, or metagame, is a recursive, intelligent approach to a problem within the context of a game. Builds and strategies thus created are in the meta (technically including the random silly build if the person made it because they planned ahead and saw success with it against a something or someone he kept running into), and things that are purely to counter the meta are, for the purposes of simplicity, anti-meta.


    Edits
    Edited for grammar and clarity, and this: When you hear, "the meta is bad," or "this meta is not fun," and people wanting it to change, this is really a comment regarding the state of game. Basically, we can't just -change the meta- whenever we want. We reach it in pursuit of optimisation of solo, duo or team matches (yes there are separate "metas" for solo queue and tournaments; Soulbeast for example, not seen much in tournaments but solid in solo-queue). What the call is for, is for an update from the developers, allowing builds and strategies that we find more fun, overall, to be capable of entering the meta.

    [EU] Ímpáct | Impact Illusions | Ímpáct D | Impact Elements
    Twitch page

  • Jack Redline.5379Jack Redline.5379 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Aza.2105 said:

    No they don't. There is nothing in the SB trait line or skills that stun. They only have daze through full counter (if you decide to hit them), and dagger 3. Thats it. Oh they also have pull from magebane. Everything else zerker has access to. The damage they also do when interrupting isn't that high to begin with and it can't crit which is ashame.

    by stunning dmg i meant the full counter and the chain it casts after that also causes a stun and it maybe doesnt deal as much dmg but it still can be quite hurtful for classes with low health

  • Jack Redline.5379Jack Redline.5379 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @bluri.2653 said:

    There is no point being constructive with someone as delusional as you. You can get 4 teammates and come play 5v5 against us. You all run your "off meta builds" and we run all meta builds. It's gonna be 500-0.

    There is always point in beign constructive with anyone since we are all on equal level here we are palyers. You are not any better just cuz you have bigger elo. Second I will find those 4 ppl then it wil take a while but i will let you know if you srsly want it so

  • Stand The Wall.6987Stand The Wall.6987 Member ✭✭✭✭

    this has to be a troll...

    Te lazla otstra.
    nerf list

  • Jack Redline.5379Jack Redline.5379 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Impact.2780 said:

    Hi. No.

    First of all: ''OOF'' This took a lot of time to write and i srsly appreciate it.
    Secondary: I rly happy you provided the definition since i know now you will understand when I say I was reffering to the set of Meta builds that currently are ''the best'' and thus form the META.
    I know what meta gaming is and i understand that is how you form the META but the thing I mean by this thread is not that Mind set of preparing yourself for enemy encounter as you said is bad. Meta gaming on its own is actually what I would love in this game since it would require thinking and actually trying to adjust to the enemy setup.
    The thing i reffer to as bad is THE MINDSET OF META (the set of builds) IS THE BEST
    As you've said the meta changes and yea condi is good against it cuz they sacrificed cleanse to be able to face power I agree with this 100%
    What is the problem is that ppl dont view the meta gaming as imporant. They only care about the best builds = the Meta and abolish anyone trying to meta game = figure out new ways to counter current set of The Meta builds or to come up with something new.
    THIS IS THE ISSUE

    So, since one particular build, in the metagame, is not "a way to play the game," your arguments stem from an entirely false premise.

    NOT THE ONLY WAY TO PLAY THE GAME :P That is what i said If I reffered to it somewhere differently i appologize. And it still proves me right and it is true. The one build that becomes The Meta like for example rn s/d thief is not THE ONLY RIGHT WAY to play Thief. It is probably the best at some area of the game. But it isnt the only way to play you can be lets say 70% effective in one area and 30% effective in other unlike the meta that is 100% effective in just one thing.
    That is why i said that Meta can effectively only face Meta since they are 100% effective in one matter and so they can 100% face only one issue. Unlike off meta build that can be versitile

    Now let's take that, and read your assertions in light of what the meta actually is

    I am not asserting i am trying to be objective and factual :P

    But wait... That means... Yes! Your build is thus, a "meta" build, (albeit not, the meta build; read the rest before you shoot me). This also shows that you are wrong to say that "meta is only good against meta."

    Yes I agree with partially.
    1st being meta = you are 100% effective in some way wich makes my builds not meta since i am not 100% effective in one way it is versitile in more areas and that is why i run it
    2nd I agree that if it is good it becomes sort of a meta but until it reaches 100% one area focus it wont become meta since it will not be THE BEST in that ONE thing
    3rd Being good in JUST 1 thing is not good you need to be versitile in the game so you can face more things

    S/D does deal with condi thieves, too,.

    NO NO NO NO NO NO
    s/d thief is actually so hard countered by Condi thief (if it isnt bamboo that just instaled the game) that you have to be srsly good to be able to defeat a condi thief on s/d
    AND MAIN REASON IS
    s/d is Core build not DrD so they lack condi cleanse on dodge so they have to equp it it some other way
    Most usually is Acrobatics yea that one is nasty to deal with even for condi BUT it still isnt on the level it could deal with condi thief
    Porting to condi thief with s2 even if you would like to cleans condi is your dead if he runs Traps or if he runs caltrops or if he runs poison or imparing daggers hek even if he runs scorpion wire if you wont keep your distance you are dead on s/d because
    inhales
    CONDI DAREDEVIL IS THE ONE AND ONLY ACTUALLY VALID AND TRUE BRAWLER BUILD FOR THIEF!!!
    exhale

    since you metagamed and ended up with a condi thief build, condi thief is a meta build" will cause cries of "No way!" and "That guy is insane!" and "Noob alert, L2P!"

    as i said yes and no

    "Meta" also refers to the current set of builds that were created by metagaming, and BY OVERSIMPLIFICATION (i.e. technically incorrectly) that it applies to those builds TO THE EXCLUSION OF ALL OTHERS.

    This is the problem i am trying to amplify here
    The exclusion of other builds is not right and shouldne be done. Reminds me of Elitism in Raids and we all hate that so why having it in PVP

    So what is the anti-meta?

    A lot of text but yea i agree :D it is true and thx for putting it here


    Edits
    Edited for grammar and clarity, and this: When you hear, "the meta is bad," or "this meta is not fun," and people wanting it to change, this is really a comment regarding the state of game. Basically, we can't just -change the meta- whenever we want. We reach it in pursuit of optimisation of solo, duo or team matches (yes there are separate "metas" for solo queue and tournaments; Soulbeast for example, not seen much in tournaments but solid in solo-queue). What the call is for, is for an update from the developers, allowing builds and strategies that we find more fun, overall, to be capable of entering the meta.

    Yes I agree unfortunatelly we can only hope that devs will change it. This thread might help a bit but probably wont :D we know how it works
    Thanks again for your post it was LONG (#that'swhatshesaid :3 ) but it was good and i am greatful thx again

  • ButterPeanut.9746ButterPeanut.9746 Member ✭✭✭

    What is the argument here? That meta builds in a power meta struggle against off meta condi builds? Many, if not all of the meta builds can very easily swap trait/skills/sigils/runes to fight a condi based team comp.

    For example, warrior used to do it all the time with Revenge counter/leadership rune/cleansing sigil if you were fighting condi mirage.

    If someone playing a 'meta build' that is mainly focused on power based comps, against a heavy condi comp and they are not changing anything, then something is wrong.

  • Impact.2780Impact.2780 Member ✭✭
    edited May 29, 2019

    Uhm..... Yeah, still no.

    If we're being reasonable, upon the construction of your post and your arguments, your beef is with those who just cut and paste "the" meta builds and play them, and hate on those who do not do the same.

    It comes from this part, most specifically:

    @Jack Redline.5379 said:
    If you put a player who played Meta for a longer period of time and was winding up in Plat 3 all the time since Meta build carried him there thanks to the fact he fought mostly Meta based builds on the way against some dude from Gold 3 with out of the meta build based mainly on condi the Meta dude is going to get ran over like a combain not understanding what happened and the winds up here crying about it and classes get nerfed not cuz the skill actually is overperforming but because the Meta guy wasnt equiped to fight something like that.

    Shortened: "People who got carried by their traits, and don't know how to use their build in the context of a match against something running something different."

    (Bear in mind, too, that "knowing how to deal with something" does not have to mean, know how to kill it. Stalling, surviving against, when to turn and burn and when to run, when to engage etc all fall under this heading. It's not limited to "how to fight")

    Your understanding of meta and metagaming is incorrect, or at least, unduly narrow. If we take your logic, say your build became THE meta build, by your own description, it would not be meta because it is 70% good at A and 30% good at B, and to be meta it has to be 100% good at only one thing, which makes it not as good as it could be in general terms. "The" meta builds are versatile by nature. "A" meta build - a build made by a metagamer - might not be, but builds which become the best within the current state of game are so because they are designed to be flexible enough to adapt and deal with a variety of things. Saying "it's not versatile because it's meta," or "it's meta so it's not versatile," is completely wrong. Every meta build ought to have something to enable it to deal with its counter class, whether it's a small sacrifice or a big sacrifice. You won't see a damage dealer running full on PVE HERO damage. At least, not since the "carry" role existed in the earliest days of GW2 PvP (yes it was a genuine role designed to cover/escort bunkers to their point).

    @Jack Redline.5379 said:
    That is why i said that Meta can effectively only face Meta since they are 100% effective in one matter and so they can 100% face only one issue. Unlike off meta build that can be versitile

    Example time. The BEST examples, going back to late 2014, early 2015, are the celestial dagger/dagger elementalist and the celestial 2-3 kit engineer. Ele in its prime, and engi when it was fun to play. The fact it used the celestial amulet should be enough to make the point, but let's go into it, anyway.

    • The D/D cele ele could not burst. It had fair sustained damage, but not "good" sustained damage. It had enough to pressure something off a point, but not really kill it. The D/D cele ele could not reliably cleanse or heal on demand, and did not put out as much support as a guardian, but it was faster, and it was support-capable. It was classified as a far-point assaulter and a back-point defender, and it could also dabble in team fighting. The role the elementalist was to fill, was a versatile one. Three roles in one. It did not excel at any one thing. This was the design of the class, and it entered the meta.
    • The cele rifle engi is slightly different. Engi was not designed to be a "jack of all trades" like the elementalist, but a versatile engineer build found its way into the meta nonetheless. In fact, for a while, both cele ele and cele engi went together, the ele being more of the back-point defender and the cele engi being more of the far-point assaulter because it could more easily decap. It took healing turret, some cc, some condition damage, and some direct damage. It didn't focus on dealing damage or defending a point, or fighting a team fight, or exclusively pushing the far point (some engineer builds did exist for the latter, and they were the infamous "decap engi" builds).

    Do you see? Those are only the more extreme examples. You like thief? You had thieves giving up damage to also stealth revive fallen allies. That was meta. Warriors even ran celestial for a while! Versatility still exists in today's meta, just not quite so pronounced. ANet decided to adjust the game so that there would be a greater need to build compositions with classes and builds that complimented each other, rather than having each player capable of doing everything on its own. The players wanted to do away with cele, 3 celestial builds on a single team was too much. People didn't like it. The amulet was deleted for a couple of years before being brought back with a nerf.

    Now....

    @Jack Redline.5379 said:
    S/D does deal with condi thieves, too,.

    NO NO NO NO NO NO
    s/d thief is actually so hard countered by Condi thief (if it isnt bamboo that just instaled the game) that you have to be srsly good to be able to defeat a condi thief on s/d
    AND MAIN REASON IS
    s/d is Core build not DrD so they lack condi cleanse on dodge so they have to equp it it some other way
    Most usually is Acrobatics yea that one is nasty to deal with even for condi BUT it still isnt on the level it could deal with condi thief
    Porting to condi thief with s2 even if you would like to cleans condi is your dead if he runs Traps or if he runs caltrops or if he runs poison or imparing daggers hek even if he runs scorpion wire if you wont keep your distance you are dead on s/d because
    inhales
    CONDI DAREDEVIL IS THE ONE AND ONLY ACTUALLY VALID AND TRUE BRAWLER BUILD FOR THIEF!!!
    exhale

    I don't want to lead your thread off topic... I don't. But I don't want to simply say, "you're wrong," and leave it at that. S/D thief is hard countered by medi guard. You don't see good ones much anymore, but they do exist. That is what a hard counter looks like. Being able to do hardly anything. Condi thief is not a hard counter to S/D thief OR D/P thief. If someone struggles vs it, they could simple exchange Deadly Arts and Improvisation for Daredevil and take cleanse on evade, but that is IF they struggle. Those who know how to play thief - how it works, how it must approach things - will not struggle. In fact, they will often have an easier time vs a condi thief than a power thief, even though the fight will last longer, and it might just be a stalemate, it'll be easier.

    You don't have to be "seriously good" on S/D to defeat a condi thief. It's not a question of mechanical skill, it's a question of thought - being faced with a problem and figuring out how to deal with it. Most of the time, you can actually "defeat" it without killing it (recall what I said above), e.g. kite on your own cap and remove him from play, or just ignore him in the team fight while he chases. It's those who try to kill it and don't know how, that fail. If you can't deal with it, just don't try. Let someone else, or just focus on the other players. I won't go into the overall implications for a comp that has a condi thief; that's too far beyond the scope of this thread.

    While not every S/D thief will run into a condi thief's conditions and spam basic attacks, tank the conditions while condi thief dodges, blow their skills for cleanse, spam sword 2 for cleanse, and eventually run out of resources and die... if that's your experience, then it makes sense to continue using your condi build until that changes for you and the range of players you vs. Good ones though, will not need to spam sword 2 because they will not take your conditions. They will use shortbow a lot. They will kite you. They do not even need to try to win, if it is their point. If it is a team fight, they will ignore you and be fine.

    [EU] Ímpáct | Impact Illusions | Ímpáct D | Impact Elements
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  • Jack Redline.5379Jack Redline.5379 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Impact.2780 said:

    @Jack Redline.5379 said:
    If you put a player who played Meta for a longer period of time and was winding up in Plat 3 all the time since Meta build carried him there thanks to the fact he fought mostly Meta based builds on the way against some dude from Gold 3 with out of the meta build based mainly on condi the Meta dude is going to get ran over like a combain not understanding what happened and the winds up here crying about it and classes get nerfed not cuz the skill actually is overperforming but because the Meta guy wasnt equiped to fight something like that.

    Shortened: "People who got carried by their traits, and don't know how to use their build in the context of a match against something running something different."
    (Bear in mind, too, that "knowing how to deal with something" does not have to mean, know how to kill it. Stalling, surviving against, when to turn and burn and when to run, when to engage etc all fall under this heading. It's not limited to "how to fight")

    That quote was more oriented on the mentality of not accepting or even considering other builds than Meta valid and valid and then being salty about it. But I agree that if knowing how to deal with someone doesnt mean you know how to kill it every time. It might be that you loose even tho you know how to fight a certain class or build.

    Your understanding of meta and metagaming is incorrect, or at least, unduly narrow. If we take your logic, say your build became THE meta build, by your own description, it would not be meta because it is 70% good at A and 30% good at B, and to be meta it has to be 100% good at only one thing, which makes it not as good as it could be in general terms. "The" meta builds are versatile by nature. "A" meta build - a build made by a metagamer - might not be, but builds which become the best within the current state of game are so because they are designed to be flexible enough to adapt and deal with a variety of things. Saying "it's not versatile because it's meta," or "it's meta so it's not versatile," is completely wrong. Every meta build ought to have something to enable it to deal with its counter class, whether it's a small sacrifice or a big sacrifice. You won't see a damage dealer running full on PVE HERO damage. At least, not since the "carry" role existed in the earliest days of GW2 PvP (yes it was a genuine role designed to cover/escort bunkers to their point).

    Example time. The BEST examples, going back to late 2014, early 2015, are the celestial dagger/dagger elementalist and the celestial 2-3 kit engineer. Ele in its prime, and engi when it was fun to play. The fact it used the celestial amulet should be enough to make the point, but let's go into it, anyway.

    • The D/D cele ele could not burst. It had fair sustained damage, but not "good" sustained damage. It had enough to pressure something off a point, but not really kill it. The D/D cele ele could not reliably cleanse or heal on demand, and did not put out as much support as a guardian, but it was faster, and it was support-capable. It was classified as a far-point assaulter and a back-point defender, and it could also dabble in team fighting. The role the elementalist was to fill, was a versatile one. Three roles in one. It did not excel at any one thing. This was the design of the class, and it entered the meta.
    • The cele rifle engi is slightly different. Engi was not designed to be a "jack of all trades" like the elementalist, but a versatile engineer build found its way into the meta nonetheless. In fact, for a while, both cele ele and cele engi went together, the ele being more of the back-point defender and the cele engi being more of the far-point assaulter because it could more easily decap. It took healing turret, some cc, some condition damage, and some direct damage. It didn't focus on dealing damage or defending a point, or fighting a team fight, or exclusively pushing the far point (some engineer builds did exist for the latter, and they were the infamous "decap engi" builds).

    First 2014 and 2015 are so back in time that those builds actually became obsolete and that is why they are not used anymore.
    Second you just confirmed what I said. The ele and engi. They were good at 1v1 fighting cuz they could outlive their opponents. That is 100% being good at A. Just cuz they could do that on any node doesnt mean that they were versitile ( °-°)
    Also if thief gave up on dmg to become stealth and revive it wasnt Meta it was just acknowledged build that could be used. Meta build would be the one that is 100% dps or decaper or whatever as it is now. So that stealth revive was off meta build that might be mentioned somewhere sometimes.

    Do you see? Those are only the more extreme examples. You like thief? You had thieves giving up damage to also stealth revive fallen allies. That was meta. Warriors even ran celestial for a while! Versatility still exists in today's meta, just not quite so pronounced. ANet decided to adjust the game so that there would be a greater need to build compositions with classes and builds that complimented each other, rather than having each player capable of doing everything on its own. The players wanted to do away with cele, 3 celestial builds on a single team was too much. People didn't like it. The amulet was deleted for a couple of years before being brought back with a nerf.

    I don't want to lead your thread off topic... I don't. But I don't want to simply say, "you're wrong," and leave it at that. S/D thief is hard countered by medi guard. You don't see good ones much anymore, but they do exist. That is what a hard counter looks like. Being able to do hardly anything. Condi thief is not a hard counter to S/D thief OR D/P thief.

    I think we have different view on what a condi thief is.
    This is immo condi thief.

    http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vZAQNAoYVn8lCNmitNB+OB0PhltiybCqxLQLFDgyaO5f+pH-jZxBQBl8IAQxyAY4UAAgHAgB3fAA

    There is only 2 changes that could be made to it to make it more support which is equiping Bountiful theft and changing to signet of Agility instead of Distracting daggers.
    That is what a condi thief build looks like imo if you could put in yours i would be greatful.
    Second. That build can and does anihalate majority of s/d thieves unless i get seriously outplayed and waste my ini by bursting and spamming either out of troll or out of need cuz i am outnumbered by someone from a side.
    That is why i say s/d is countered by condi thief since i see it a lot in game. (herald and necro is countered by this even more than thief)
    I would just use this as example to not deviate

    The main point still is that I want to point out ppl need to stop focusing so hard on THE META and become more inovative and acceptable towards other builds since they might be as well effective they might be good but when ppl see the response to them even trying to be inovative and they fail a few times because trail and error they give up and go to meta discover that it is cozy and easy to paly and it gives results (as i said agains other meta players mainly since Meta focuses on 100% efficiency in A) and then the community becomes dull and salty.

  • Yannir.4132Yannir.4132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    What do you call holo then?
    It's definitely a meta build but they don't excel at any 1 thing. They can give support, they can do damage in a teamfight and they can duel on a node and hold it. Just like sword weaver can.

  • witcher.3197witcher.3197 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 29, 2019

    @Aza.2105 said:

    @Khalisto.5780 said:
    Im not even bother going through your text wall, there is a reason meta builds are meta, and it's because they perform better in almost any environment and with any player, low or high skilled.

    Game is not blocking from play whichever build you want, just play the builds you have fun and if the build is viable you can even climb to high plat as we still seeing eles up in the ranks

    There are lots of other builds to be discovered. Many gw2 players lack innovation and are just followers. Its funny because gw1 was quite the opposite in many ways.

    In GW1 experimenting didn't cost you rating unless it was GvG. In GW2 weeks worth of progress can be undone by testing builds unless, you have alts to play on.

    GW1 build crafting was also way less limited so there was more room to experiment. In GW2 most viable builds follow the same core traits/skills regardless of role because otherwise the class just doesn't work. Part of it is because in GW2 player could depend on monks to keep them alive so they didn't have to care about survival all that much (unless they were the healers).

  • Impact.2780Impact.2780 Member ✭✭
    edited May 29, 2019

    @Jack Redline.5379 said:
    ....

    You're taking things said out of context in order to state a gross generalisation which is false, and ignoring everything else in your responses. In addition to being extremely bad practice when trying to have a debate about something, it's also quite rude, tantamount to ignoring. You're simply refusing to accept what meta actually is, and doing so in a contradictory fashion, now, absent reasoning, perhaps because it would undermine your entire argument.

    D/P thief running DA/Trick/SA was meta after the trait rework killed S/D for a time. It was the only viable build in competitive play. It was absolutely meta, and it was THE meta. There is no room to argue otherwise.

    As regards my examples from previous metas, they were examples. Please don't be so obtuse as to make me have to produce a more current and perhaps less clear example. They serve perfectly to indicate meta builds are designed with versatility in mind, capable of performing multiple roles, in multiple places, and adapting to the needs of the team and the opponent. Capable of a team fight strategy or primarily rotations and skirmishes. A current example is the blood scourge, as opposed to the curses spec.

    And yes. That is the condi thief build I am aware of. You're not the only one who uses it. As a concept it has existed for years, known as a "unicorn" build. It pops up now and then in plat 2+, perhaps as much as DE does.

    I think you're asking people to be open minded to have an honest discussion with a willingness to examine things from your perspective, but are unwilling to accept contrary positions even in the face of overwhelming reasoning and evidence/examples. I hoped to clear some things up and help people who were similarly confused, but I see now that this thread is not for that purpose.

    [EU] Ímpáct | Impact Illusions | Ímpáct D | Impact Elements
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  • mortrialus.3062mortrialus.3062 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Yannir.4132 said:
    What do you call holo then?
    It's definitely a meta build but they don't excel at any 1 thing. They can give support, they can do damage in a teamfight and they can duel on a node and hold it. Just like sword weaver can.

    Master of All Trades.

    The Psychomancer: Mesmer Elite Specialization Suggestion

  • @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Yannir.4132 said:
    What do you call holo then?
    It's definitely a meta build but they don't excel at any 1 thing. They can give support, they can do damage in a teamfight and they can duel on a node and hold it. Just like sword weaver can.

    Master of All Trades.

    Jack of absolutely nothing?

    [Charr Noises]
    [Plays every class]
    [JUST GIT EVEN GUDDER ITS FINE]

  • Crab Fear.1624Crab Fear.1624 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I was thinking about the meta builds. I can understand about the build being the most effective, but my attention and aggravation are directed at META Roles. The jobs defined for each class that if deviated from makes you a liability.
    You can play Condi thief or whatever thief you want really, but you must conform to the +1 decapper role to see the most success.
    Whatever role is for your given class, de nation from that tends to bring down the team.

    The issue is META roles.

    I don't think people reflect so deeply if you play Condi trapper as long as you decap, and plus one fights.

    As it stands you can't really duel, teamfight, support, or side node as a thief.

    To plus one and decap, as long as your bar isn't a complete joke, and you have shortbow, you can take off meta builds as find success.

    You can not (generally speaking ignoring exceptions) do off meta roles.

    Soon™ ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

  • mortrialus.3062mortrialus.3062 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Yannir.4132 said:
    What do you call holo then?
    It's definitely a meta build but they don't excel at any 1 thing. They can give support, they can do damage in a teamfight and they can duel on a node and hold it. Just like sword weaver can.

    Master of All Trades.

    Jack of absolutely nothing?

    Jack of All Trades, Master of All Trades.

    The Psychomancer: Mesmer Elite Specialization Suggestion

  • Jack Redline.5379Jack Redline.5379 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Impact.2780 said:

    .....
    I think we have lost each other somewhere along the way
    I havent took things out of context you have pointed out some things from my first comment of this thread perticulary these:

    My point of view on what is meta

    I have specified after that I am talking about the META as a set of builds that are according to communitites view the best set of builds in the current game state
    (This is what i was always on about I can quote myself here)
    '' Guys I have figured out what seems to be THE MAJOR issue not only here on forums but also inside of the game itself.
    An issue which's understanding is is absolutely crucial to the entire complex of the PVP as we know it.
    EVERYONE THINKS THAT THE META IS THE ONLY RIGHT WAY TO PLAY THIS GAME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! '' - Me in first comment

    You have also mentioned what meta gaming is. And i agree with this and I said it is a good point and it is true. I dont know what else needs to be mentioned here
    You have also said that Metagaming leads to creation of Meta builds = a ways that are proven to be effective because they worked durring the proccess of metagaming
    And I have said that I agree with this as well

    The thing i disagreed with since the very begining is the fact (which is very real not made up) That community is obsessed with following these Meta builds that may be good and all yea I havent denied that. I am disputing the fact that following these Meta builds even tho they may be efficient blindly without questioning the process of developement of the gamestyles and any other aspects that might prove some other build that wasnt mentioned in Meta builds is not good.
    I realize that meta builds are good Yea sure they are. I said it as well The Meta builds are 100% effective in their area or field

    You have even proven it in your comment about the d/d ele and rifle engineer.
    They were effective in dueling on any spot on map because they could outsustin enemy while dealing enough dmg to deal with them

    That is called 1v1-ing and they were effective in it 100% that is why they became Meta (at least that is why i understood from what you said) And even tho I have noted they are old builds it doesnt undermine the fact you were right and those builds were 100% good in their job and so became Metas

    Also your view on the effectivenes in a certain area is strange immo
    you are using the outputs of each class like = Ele couldnt burst but could have good dmg output while he managed to sustain himself enough the same for Engi.
    That is not rly a role in game
    All classes can deal dmg and sustain themselves and cap and decap and fight on/off point.
    You cant meassure the effectiveness of a build by its output. You can only meassure the efficiency of this output. If a warior will burst 400000k crit AD on a Thief but completelly misses him the output the warior actually got from his effort is 0 even tho his possible output ws 400000k crit AD.

    That is why I am disputing the fact Meta builds are THE BEST since even tho they have 100% effective possible output of their dmg sustain mobility etc the real output is not equal to those numbers.
    If you manage to slide down 4m golem in PVE within 2 seconds it doesnt mean you will be able to do the same in PvP where you fight a person
    And I am saying that even tho these builds have the best potential they are not as effective since this potential can be applied only if the player using them is
    1st still alive to use skills
    2nd not interrupted while using skills so he actually uses them
    3rd his build doesnt limit him against what he is trying to do

    Versitile doesnt mean I can cast 15s of protection on me while i deal 5k dmg on hitting Aa. That is only the potential the build may offer to you
    But the cost for this is that you must be able to do those 3 things listed above

    And I also said that Meta builds can only perform well against other Meta builds because the Meta is based around fighting Meta cuz if you can beat the best you are obviously the best. And I said it is not right and that Meta builds perform poorly against non meta builds or as you mentioned anti meta builds. And that is true.

    My point has since begining been that Meta is not THE ONLY RIGHT WAY to play this game. I have listed why I think so. My reasons were that Meta performs poorly against good non meta builds and that the way -Meta works it carries the player so it depletes him from actualyl gaining game knowledge and skill so it increases possibility of him being qqing here after someone who actually has game knowledge and skill beats him on something non meta. Not to mention when meta changes and they cant adapt till new Meta list comes
    Those were my points. I wasnt picking out cherries. These are real things and they happen daily. I dont understand what made you angry. But I cant agree with you on the fact that community should accept Meta just beacuse it is good in its specific job. Ppl should be open to tests new builds and everything.

    I came to the arena today to have fun and test some rifle / lb condi berserker. Everyone immediatelly asked me and ''adviced'' me to go sb since it is Meta. I got so much salt and laugh that i could harvest it all and sell it on market to finally become rich.
    This mindset is bad and wrong and should change. That is what i say-

  • Jack Redline.5379Jack Redline.5379 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Crab Fear.1624 said:
    You can play Condi thief or whatever thief you want really, but you must conform to the +1 decapper role to see the most success.

    As it stands you can't really duel, teamfight, support, or side node as a thief.

    Yea that is true but in the moment you get killed or fail once you get salt baths since you are not meta. Also Thief can 1v1 just saying :P xD

  • Azure The Heartless.3261Azure The Heartless.3261 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 29, 2019

    @Jack Redline.5379 said:
    Thief can 1v1 just saying :P xD

    Put an asterisk next to that.

    They can but in most cases their reliance on stealth and average damage will cause them to take too long to contest any particular point. not to mention that them using stealth gives opponents progress for free.

    You can 1v1 sure, but if your opponent isnt a squishy necro/reaper, a glass ele, or another worse thief, you're not claiming that point before the opposing guard on mid can come blow you up.

    And in addition to you getting salt drowned if you fail at any point, if you take too long slowly losing a point vs a non-glass be prepared to be keelhauled again.

    [Charr Noises]
    [Plays every class]
    [JUST GIT EVEN GUDDER ITS FINE]

  • Ragnar.4257Ragnar.4257 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 30, 2019

    Success is dependent on both the Player and the Build. A bad player won't be saved by a meta build. A good player who doesn't know how to play a particular class, will still suck with a meta build. A good player with a non-meta build that they know inside-out because they've played 10000 hours on it will destroy regardless of the meta.

    Its interesting who it is that complains about non-meta. Myself having played all of last season on a non-meta build (Sage Hybrid FB), when I'm in matches with other P3's there are never any comments or complaints, because players there understand that skill > build. But if it's quiet and I'm getting matched with G3s/P1s, that's when all the whining starts to happen. Apparently the lower you go, the more people worship build > skill.

    Unless you're part of an organised team going in to mAT final, the "meta" is not relevant to you. Play what you're best on. If you're "stuck" in Gold, I can 100% guarantee that its not "the meta" or your build that is holding you back.

    It is also true that the meta changes over time, mostly in response to RNG balance patches. When PoF landed, NOBODY was playing soulbeast, nobody had figured out boon stacking. Then scourge and SpB took some nerfs, somebody figured out you could juggle infinite boons and that axe was a thing, and bam, 2018 boonbeasts everywhere. And now in 2019 they're kinda gone again. To suggest that the meta is "static" and that new builds don't come in to play, is just absurd. Mirage and Chrono have been in and out over the last 18 months, and even then the optimal build shifted several times. Spellbreaker has been in since PoF, but the optimal build has shifted from bunker to CC/Frenzy. Scrapper came out of nowhere. Heralds were pretty rare when there were mirages everywhere. Core-Guard straight up been wiped out.

    If we were playing a game where literally nothing had changed in the last 7 years, then yeah, you could probably say by now that all the optimal stuff had been found. But we're not. Stuff is changing around us, and that will bring new builds forward.

    All of that said....... condi thief is a joke.

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