[Benchmarks] Benchmarks Posted by [qT] — Guild Wars 2 Forums

[Benchmarks] Benchmarks Posted by [qT]

Exqq.7451Exqq.7451 Member ✭✭✭
edited October 4, 2017 in Necromancer

Interesting. Renegade runes recommended. Also, why does thief have like 5 different build benchmarks? From what I have been reading here Power Reaper and Power Scourge are around where the low end Thief benchmarks are. I'll never understand why people take these guys as gospel. Discuss.

https://qtfy.eu/guildwars/benchmarks-path-of-fire/

Edit: Also, they tested Firebrand with Viper because the tester was too poor to get Grieving and does not have Legendary according to their reddit posting.

Comments

  • Lalainnia.3598Lalainnia.3598 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 4, 2017

    It's just personal bias really, each of the ppl that post the builds post what they feel is important or not while 2 of those thief builds are pretty meh they work for what its attached to. Like you stated though ppl shouldn't take everything as gospel large portion of the time ppl will use a suggested build and not use it to its full capacity to the point where something like power reaper or power scourge could surpass it.

    All around though its honestly good they do this if anyone remembers why the berserk meta was a thing in dungeons was because you would have like 3-4 ppl in a group with a bunch of pure toughness vit stats and no damage because that's what they used in open world and made them feel safe aka face tank stuff. It even happens in your basic pug group stuff today ppl go into raids with heavy toughness vit or some other non important stat thinking they can fulfill the role of "dps" just based on the class and not the gear. What's great now though is pretty much every single class has something they can play as dps now and pass fights at a healthy pace. Now they just need to work on breaking the double chrono druid and ps warrior set up lol!

    Also hooray for condi scourge being awesome dps

  • Wintermute.5408Wintermute.5408 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 4, 2017

    7 mesmer becnhmarks. They do love their mesmers...

    Hurray for DPS though. Inb4 nerfs.

  • Drarnor Kunoram.5180Drarnor Kunoram.5180 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 5, 2017

    @Exqq.7451 said:
    Interesting. Renegade runes recommended. Also, why does thief have like 5 different build benchmarks? From what I have been reading here Power Reaper and Power Scourge are around where the low end Thief benchmarks are. I'll never understand why people take these guys as gospel. Discuss.

    https://qtfy.eu/guildwars/benchmarks-path-of-fire/

    Edit: Also, they tested Firebrand with Viper because the tester was too poor to get Grieving and does not have Legendary according to their reddit posting.

    I'd like to see them re-run that with Nightmare/Trapper, personally. I'm not sure the additional 100 condition damage +7% is worth the 25% duration loss on burns, torment, and poison (and 5% on bleeds).

    Plague Signet is the only skill in the game that is worse when traited.

  • @Exqq.7451 said:
    Interesting. Renegade runes recommended. Also, why does thief have like 5 different build benchmarks? From what I have been reading here Power Reaper and Power Scourge are around where the low end Thief benchmarks are. I'll never understand why people take these guys as gospel. Discuss.

    https://qtfy.eu/guildwars/benchmarks-path-of-fire/

    Edit: Also, they tested Firebrand with Viper because the tester was too poor to get Grieving and does not have Legendary according to their reddit posting.

    in true fight, scourge will low then soulbeast

  • Wintermute.5408Wintermute.5408 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 5, 2017

    Ok, question for the mathheads about that line: "has a bunch of traits which increase condi duration allowing it to use renegade runes."

    "Bunch of traits" seems to be Sand Sage, which fluctuates around A LOT since we aren't able to keep even 2 shades at permanent basis. Fell Beacon generally works, but then there's Lingering Curse, with common misconception about it (launched by Qt themselves IIRC) that is helps us achieve max duation, when it simply scales both duration AND maximum duration for Scepter.

    So, is that statement true? FB and bonus from 1 shade is enough to cap duration in full Viper?

  • Drarnor Kunoram.5180Drarnor Kunoram.5180 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 5, 2017

    @Wintermute.5408 said:
    Ok, question for the mathheads about that line: "has a bunch of traits which increase condi duration allowing it to use renegade runes."

    "Bunch of traits" seems to be Sand Sage, which fluctuates around A LOT since we aren't able to keep even 2 shades at permanent basis. Fell Beacon generally works, but then there's Lingering Curse, with common misconception about it (launched by Qt themselves IIRC) that is helps us achieve max duation, when it simply scales both duration AND maximum duration for Scepter.

    So, is that statement true? FB and bonus from 1 shade is enough to cap duration in full Viper?

    Full Viper, 4 Nightmare/2 Trapper, Malice sigil, +100 Expertise food and a Furious tuning crystal with Fell Beacon will net you 100.5% condition duration with 1 shade up.

    With Renegade runes, you don't even hit 100% on bleeding, let alone anything else.

    Plague Signet is the only skill in the game that is worse when traited.

  • Wintermute.5408Wintermute.5408 Member ✭✭✭

    @Drarnor Kunoram.5180 said:

    @Wintermute.5408 said:
    Ok, question for the mathheads about that line: "has a bunch of traits which increase condi duration allowing it to use renegade runes."

    "Bunch of traits" seems to be Sand Sage, which fluctuates around A LOT since we aren't able to keep even 2 shades at permanent basis. Fell Beacon generally works, but then there's Lingering Curse, with common misconception about it (launched by Qt themselves IIRC) that is helps us achieve max duation, when it simply scales both duration AND maximum duration for Scepter.

    So, is that statement true? FB and bonus from 1 shade is enough to cap duration in full Viper?

    Full Viper, 4 Nightmare/2 Trapper, Malice sigil, +100 Expertise food and a Furious tuning crystal with Fell Beacon will net you 100.5% condition duration with 1 shade up.

    With Renegade runes, you don't even hit 100% on bleeding, let alone anything else.

    Is such setup better then? This way we do lose 75 condi damage, 7% further increase and ferocity, whatever it does to the build. Some folks have been saying it scales nicely with F skills.

  • Exqq.7451Exqq.7451 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 5, 2017

    @Drarnor Kunoram.5180 said:

    @Exqq.7451 said:
    Interesting. Renegade runes recommended. Also, why does thief have like 5 different build benchmarks? From what I have been reading here Power Reaper and Power Scourge are around where the low end Thief benchmarks are. I'll never understand why people take these guys as gospel. Discuss.

    https://qtfy.eu/guildwars/benchmarks-path-of-fire/

    Edit: Also, they tested Firebrand with Viper because the tester was too poor to get Grieving and does not have Legendary according to their reddit posting.

    I'd like to see them re-run that with Nightmare/Trapper, personally. I'm not sure the additional 100 condition damage +7% is worth the 25% duration loss on burns, torment, and poison (and 5% on bleeds).

    I would like to see this as well. Based off their Firebrand being based off Viper and not Grieving (according to their reddit post; because no money), I'm convinced the setup you say would be better and they went with what they did so as not to clear a few dungeons to get runes. But would have to see the math.

    Considering my vague testing had Burning and Torment as a HUGE portion of DPS, leaving them behind like this seems... odd.

  • Kam.4092Kam.4092 Member ✭✭✭

    @Exqq.7451 said:

    @Drarnor Kunoram.5180 said:

    @Exqq.7451 said:
    Interesting. Renegade runes recommended. Also, why does thief have like 5 different build benchmarks? From what I have been reading here Power Reaper and Power Scourge are around where the low end Thief benchmarks are. I'll never understand why people take these guys as gospel. Discuss.

    https://qtfy.eu/guildwars/benchmarks-path-of-fire/

    Edit: Also, they tested Firebrand with Viper because the tester was too poor to get Grieving and does not have Legendary according to their reddit posting.

    I'd like to see them re-run that with Nightmare/Trapper, personally. I'm not sure the additional 100 condition damage +7% is worth the 25% duration loss on burns, torment, and poison (and 5% on bleeds).

    I would like to see this as well. Based off their Firebrand being based off Viper and not Grieving (according to their reddit post; because no money), I'm convinced the setup you say would be better and they went with what they did so as not to clear a few dungeons to get runes. But would have to see the math.

    Considering my vague testing had Burning and Torment as a HUGE portion of DPS, leaving them behind like this seems... odd.

    Bleeding is still our top Condition Damage wise. I don't see how Renegade wouldn't be more DPS. We can't maintain super high stacks of Torment and Burning. We basically just do Burst application of the two, then it falls off, and we rinse and repeat. If we could maintain them like we do Bleeding, then I could see Trapper and Nightmare being better.

  • Drarnor Kunoram.5180Drarnor Kunoram.5180 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 5, 2017

    @Kam.4092 said:

    @Exqq.7451 said:

    @Drarnor Kunoram.5180 said:

    @Exqq.7451 said:
    Interesting. Renegade runes recommended. Also, why does thief have like 5 different build benchmarks? From what I have been reading here Power Reaper and Power Scourge are around where the low end Thief benchmarks are. I'll never understand why people take these guys as gospel. Discuss.

    https://qtfy.eu/guildwars/benchmarks-path-of-fire/

    Edit: Also, they tested Firebrand with Viper because the tester was too poor to get Grieving and does not have Legendary according to their reddit posting.

    I'd like to see them re-run that with Nightmare/Trapper, personally. I'm not sure the additional 100 condition damage +7% is worth the 25% duration loss on burns, torment, and poison (and 5% on bleeds).

    I would like to see this as well. Based off their Firebrand being based off Viper and not Grieving (according to their reddit post; because no money), I'm convinced the setup you say would be better and they went with what they did so as not to clear a few dungeons to get runes. But would have to see the math.

    Considering my vague testing had Burning and Torment as a HUGE portion of DPS, leaving them behind like this seems... odd.

    Bleeding is still our top Condition Damage wise. I don't see how Renegade wouldn't be more DPS. We can't maintain super high stacks of Torment and Burning. We basically just do Burst application of the two, then it falls off, and we rinse and repeat. If we could maintain them like we do Bleeding, then I could see Trapper and Nightmare being better.

    We can maintain ~10 stacks of Torment average with ease once you factor Alacrity, so I would call that "significant." Burning we average another 2-4 stacks on average, so that shouldn't be ignored either.

    Plague Signet is the only skill in the game that is worse when traited.

  • Ktk.5107Ktk.5107 Member ✭✭

    @Drarnor Kunoram.5180 said:

    @Wintermute.5408 said:
    Ok, question for the mathheads about that line: "has a bunch of traits which increase condi duration allowing it to use renegade runes."

    "Bunch of traits" seems to be Sand Sage, which fluctuates around A LOT since we aren't able to keep even 2 shades at permanent basis. Fell Beacon generally works, but then there's Lingering Curse, with common misconception about it (launched by Qt themselves IIRC) that is helps us achieve max duation, when it simply scales both duration AND maximum duration for Scepter.

    So, is that statement true? FB and bonus from 1 shade is enough to cap duration in full Viper?

    Full Viper, 4 Nightmare/2 Trapper, Malice sigil, +100 Expertise food and a Furious tuning crystal with Fell Beacon will net you 100.5% condition duration with 1 shade up.

    With Renegade runes, you don't even hit 100% on bleeding, let alone anything else.

    Actually, with 2 shades up (average of 1,9) you should be at 85% condi and 105% bleed, without anything your raid could bring you.

    From the other scourge build there was around, it's about the same dps in full viper renegade than 1 piece sinister nightmare/trapper. It's probably so close it doesn't really matter.

    Nightmare runes are a pain to get though, so that's that.

  • Drarnor Kunoram.5180Drarnor Kunoram.5180 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 5, 2017

    @Ktk.5107 said:

    @Drarnor Kunoram.5180 said:

    @Wintermute.5408 said:
    Ok, question for the mathheads about that line: "has a bunch of traits which increase condi duration allowing it to use renegade runes."

    "Bunch of traits" seems to be Sand Sage, which fluctuates around A LOT since we aren't able to keep even 2 shades at permanent basis. Fell Beacon generally works, but then there's Lingering Curse, with common misconception about it (launched by Qt themselves IIRC) that is helps us achieve max duation, when it simply scales both duration AND maximum duration for Scepter.

    So, is that statement true? FB and bonus from 1 shade is enough to cap duration in full Viper?

    Full Viper, 4 Nightmare/2 Trapper, Malice sigil, +100 Expertise food and a Furious tuning crystal with Fell Beacon will net you 100.5% condition duration with 1 shade up.

    With Renegade runes, you don't even hit 100% on bleeding, let alone anything else.

    Actually, with 2 shades up (average of 1,9) you should be at 85% condi and 105% bleed, without anything your raid could bring you.

    From the other scourge build there was around, it's about the same dps in full viper renegade than 1 piece sinister nightmare/trapper. It's probably so close it doesn't really matter.

    Nightmare runes are a pain to get though, so that's that.

    Not sure where you're getting those numbers.

    Allies can't help you out at all on condition duration.

    For reference, 4 Nightmare/2 Trapper full Vipers, yada yada gives 84.26% general condition duration with no shades (before accounting for food, which only adds 9.93% for either rune set). Renegade runes is 24.65% lower for a maximum general condition duration of 69.54%+5%/shade. You don't quite hit the duration cap for Bleeding with only 2 shades, let alone anything else.

    Plague Signet is the only skill in the game that is worse when traited.

  • Ktk.5107Ktk.5107 Member ✭✭

    I'm looking at that build editor thing and it's not taking into account the 7% condi dmg as expertise, so I just did the math myself, and I got those numbers, if you have a better build editor which will demonstrate more clearly the amount of duration you get then please introduce me to it.

  • Zenith.7301Zenith.7301 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 5, 2017

    @Wintermute.5408 said:
    7 mesmer becnhmarks. They do love their mesmers...

    Hurray for DPS though. Inb4 nerfs.

    They're condi and power variants of chrono, condi variant of mirage, and power mesmer. All of which are used builds. What build other than scourge or condi reaper is a necro build used in raids?

    You have some nerve to be complaining when you got an apex elite dps spec with utility and godly cleave, while the mesmer's mirage is just a garbage single target ramp up version that does 4k less DPS than you, doesn't cleave, and offers zero utility.

    Mesmer is the single class thus far without a competitive DPS build for a raid.

  • Substatic.6958Substatic.6958 Member ✭✭✭

    So the best raid class, the best wpvp class, the best spvp class.

    Yeah, Arenanet is comming with a butcher's knife. It will be swift.

  • Oldirtbeard.9834Oldirtbeard.9834 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Yet Power Reaper is still a steaming pile of kitten.

    “The only watchmaker is the blind forces of physics.”
    ― Richard Dawkins, The God Delusion

  • mazut.4296mazut.4296 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 5, 2017

    I'm really not sure that runes of renegade are better then berserker runes. The additional power and 5% power damage is surely more then 2% condi damage...no?
    PS: OP I also don't care about this "pro meta ****" builds, but as a person who raids with pugs I'm pulled into the herd...

  • @mazut.4296 said:
    I'm really not sure that runes of renegade are better then berserker runes. The additional power and 5% power damage is surely more then 2% condi damage...no?
    PS: OP I also don't care about this "pro meta ****" builds, but as a person who raids with pugs I'm pulled into the herd...

    Scepter has kitten power damage, like 5% does nothing on it really. But the differences are not that big that you could not run berserker runes and do good damage.

  • @mazut.4296 said:
    I'm really not sure that runes of renegade are better then berserker runes. The additional power and 5% power damage is surely more then 2% condi damage...no?
    PS: OP I also don't care about this "pro meta ****" builds, but as a person who raids with pugs I'm pulled into the herd...

    Looking at the logs about 17% percent of the damage is power and the rest (83%) is condi.

  • Kam.4092Kam.4092 Member ✭✭✭

    @Aceofsppades.6873 said:

    @mazut.4296 said:
    I'm really not sure that runes of renegade are better then berserker runes. The additional power and 5% power damage is surely more then 2% condi damage...no?
    PS: OP I also don't care about this "pro meta ****" builds, but as a person who raids with pugs I'm pulled into the herd...

    Looking at the logs about 17% percent of the damage is power and the rest (83%) is condi.

    So are Berserker Runes worth it then?

  • Exqq.7451Exqq.7451 Member ✭✭✭

    @Substatic.6958 said:
    So the best raid class, the best wpvp class, the best spvp class.

    Yeah, Arenanet is comming with a butcher's knife. It will be swift.

    TODAY AT ANET HEADQUARTERS SECRET STAFFING BUNKER
    {Staffing Leader} Team, welcome back from your weekend. I hope you all enjoy yourselves.
    {Team} It was great!
    {Staffing Leader} So we have a packed schedule today but none of that matters right now. We have something far more important to discuss as I'm sure most of you are aware.
    {Team} Umm... What happened?
    {Staffing Leader} As I am sure all of you have seen, [qT] posted their new benchmarks for the community. While I enjoy the community engagement this recent review by them brings to light an absolute failure on our part during the development of this content. Anyone know what I'm talking about?
    {Team} Necromancer is posting high results.
    {Staffing Leader} Who was responsible for this?
    {Team} Jerry was responsible, Sir.
    {Staffing Leader} Jerry, get your kitten AND GET OUT OF THE kitten BUILDING!
    {Staffing Leader} Now, it isn't too late. Can we fix this?
    {Team} YES, SIR!

  • Drarnor Kunoram.5180Drarnor Kunoram.5180 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 5, 2017

    @Ktk.5107 said:
    I'm looking at that build editor thing and it's not taking into account the 7% condi dmg as expertise, so I just did the math myself, and I got those numbers, if you have a better build editor which will demonstrate more clearly the amount of duration you get then please introduce me to it.

    Yeah, that build editor factors the condition damage you get from Target the Weak and Lingering Curse into the Fell Beacon conversion, which doesn't happen in-game. Fell Beacon only converts based on gear stats.

    It actually adds too much Expertise.

    Plague Signet is the only skill in the game that is worse when traited.

  • @Ktk.5107 said:
    I'm looking at that build editor thing and it's not taking into account the 7% condi dmg as expertise, so I just did the math myself, and I got those numbers, if you have a better build editor which will demonstrate more clearly the amount of duration you get then please introduce me to it.

    Those 7% condi dmg don't provide expertise because 7% is added directly to your skill base dmg and not to your condition damage stat number. You get expertise from your stats condition damage, not total condition damage.

    Renegade vs Trapper/Nightmare runes are about the same on static target but Trapper/Nightmare will yield more DPS on moving target because of uptime of applied conditions, same goes for mechanics in encounters. Also for shorter encounters Renegade is probably better because of higher bursting potential (QT kills fast, so for them Renegade runes are better). If you and your party play on QT level go for Renegade runes, if not go for Trapper/Nightmare combo. :)

  • Wintermute.5408Wintermute.5408 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 5, 2017

    @Zenith.7301 said:

    @Wintermute.5408 said:
    7 mesmer becnhmarks. They do love their mesmers...

    Hurray for DPS though. Inb4 nerfs.

    They're condi and power variants of chrono, condi variant of mirage, and power mesmer. All of which are used builds. What build other than scourge or condi reaper is a necro build used in raids?

    You have some nerve to be complaining when you got an apex elite dps spec with utility and godly cleave, while the mesmer's mirage is just a garbage single target ramp up version that does 4k less DPS than you, doesn't cleave, and offers zero utility.

    Mesmer is the single class thus far without a competitive DPS build for a raid.

    Ok, if you want to take my kitten attempts at humor that seriously...

    6 of those builds are effectively one and the same chrono buff bot with various degrees of kitten damage. Yet they found the time to test them all.

    Then there's mirage, combining middle of the road damage with non-existant survivability and being bugged up the kitten. Yet there it is, tested.

    And then there's one necro build. 1. Not even consideration given to any form of power builds. "Oh, but power necros suck!" So does the majority of those 7 mesmer builds. Not even consideration given to Scourge support. "Oh, but Scourge support sucks!" So does Mirage DPS. Or support Herald. Yet there they are. kitten, even for one benchmark they did bother testing they got gearing wrong. Quality effort from our meta overlords! And THOSE guys get to determine whether necro is taken or not into PVE groups. Guys that can't even be bothered to test necro to the degree they test their mains. Would they completely fail at that 1 benchmark they did, they would say "oh well, Scourge is unviable", and then entire PVE community would roll with it despite any evidence to the contrary. Awesome.

  • vicious.5683vicious.5683 Member ✭✭✭

    @Zenith.7301 said:

    @Wintermute.5408 said:
    7 mesmer becnhmarks. They do love their mesmers...

    Hurray for DPS though. Inb4 nerfs.

    You have some nerve to be complaining when you got an apex elite dps spec with utility and godly cleave, while the mesmer's mirage is just a garbage single target ramp up version that does 4k less DPS than you, doesn't cleave, and offers zero utility.

    Mesmer is the single class thus far without a competitive DPS build for a raid.

    For a second, I thought you were talking about Power Reapers, but those have much less DPS than your mirage. And even less support and utility.

  • vicious.5683vicious.5683 Member ✭✭✭

    @Substatic.6958 said:
    So the best raid class, the best wpvp class, the best spvp class.

    Yeah, Arenanet is comming with a butcher's knife. It will be swift.

    The kitten are you talking about? Eles still have goddly dps in raids.

  • Exqq.7451Exqq.7451 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 6, 2017

    @Wintermute.5408 said:

    @Zenith.7301 said:

    @Wintermute.5408 said:
    7 mesmer becnhmarks. They do love their mesmers...

    Hurray for DPS though. Inb4 nerfs.

    They're condi and power variants of chrono, condi variant of mirage, and power mesmer. All of which are used builds. What build other than scourge or condi reaper is a necro build used in raids?

    You have some nerve to be complaining when you got an apex elite dps spec with utility and godly cleave, while the mesmer's mirage is just a garbage single target ramp up version that does 4k less DPS than you, doesn't cleave, and offers zero utility.

    Mesmer is the single class thus far without a competitive DPS build for a raid.

    Ok, if you want to take my kitten attempts at humor that seriously...

    6 of those builds are effectively one and the same chrono buff bot with various degrees of kitten damage. Yet they found the time to test them all.

    Then there's mirage, combining middle of the road damage with non-existant survivability and being bugged up the kitten. Yet there it is, tested.

    And then there's one necro build. 1. Not even consideration given to any form of power builds. "Oh, but power necros suck!" So does the majority of those 7 mesmer builds. Not even consideration given to Scourge support. "Oh, but Scourge support sucks!" So does Mirage DPS. Or support Herald. Yet there they are. kitten, even for one benchmark they did bother testing they got gearing wrong. Quality effort from our meta overlords! And THOSE guys get to determine whether necro is taken or not into PVE groups. Guys that can't even be bothered to test necro to the degree they test their mains. Would they completely fail at that 1 benchmark they did, they would say "oh well, Scourge is unviable", and then entire PVE community would roll with it despite any evidence to the contrary. Awesome.

    So much this. They know the community looks to them as gospel so I feel they should definately keep that in mind.

    4 listed thief specs even though only 1 is META(lulz) and they even post (solo) builds for thief.

    8 Ele builds with 1 even as low as 27k.

    5 Guard builds even as low as 33k.

    We should definately have at least a Condi Reaper listed. I would even go so far as to say we should have Power Scourge listed as I have seen posts with it at 31-34k which is MORE than viable. They basically shoehorn necro into one role because they hate it and the rest of the community follows like lemmings. And while barrier is not “wanted” how much easier would a raid be with 4 necro dps spamming barriers on the raid and with the healing and doing extremely competent dps. Meanwhile the community continues to think one shot glass Weaver is the only viable dps because it is “higher”. That is not their fault. But, either only provide the one recommended meta build and thats it, or provide all viable builds.

    Edit: I'll leave this here since deleting it would be a bit much. However, after reading a lot of the feedback (and taking into consideration how I was feeling when I wrote this) I was clearly a bit over the top. Thank you everyone that provided feedback and pointed out my shitcockery.

  • @Exqq.7451 said:

    @Wintermute.5408 said:

    @Zenith.7301 said:

    @Wintermute.5408 said:
    7 mesmer becnhmarks. They do love their mesmers...

    Hurray for DPS though. Inb4 nerfs.

    They're condi and power variants of chrono, condi variant of mirage, and power mesmer. All of which are used builds. What build other than scourge or condi reaper is a necro build used in raids?

    You have some nerve to be complaining when you got an apex elite dps spec with utility and godly cleave, while the mesmer's mirage is just a garbage single target ramp up version that does 4k less DPS than you, doesn't cleave, and offers zero utility.

    Mesmer is the single class thus far without a competitive DPS build for a raid.

    Ok, if you want to take my kitten attempts at humor that seriously...

    6 of those builds are effectively one and the same chrono buff bot with various degrees of kitten damage. Yet they found the time to test them all.

    Then there's mirage, combining middle of the road damage with non-existant survivability and being bugged up the kitten. Yet there it is, tested.

    And then there's one necro build. 1. Not even consideration given to any form of power builds. "Oh, but power necros suck!" So does the majority of those 7 mesmer builds. Not even consideration given to Scourge support. "Oh, but Scourge support sucks!" So does Mirage DPS. Or support Herald. Yet there they are. kitten, even for one benchmark they did bother testing they got gearing wrong. Quality effort from our meta overlords! And THOSE guys get to determine whether necro is taken or not into PVE groups. Guys that can't even be bothered to test necro to the degree they test their mains. Would they completely fail at that 1 benchmark they did, they would say "oh well, Scourge is unviable", and then entire PVE community would roll with it despite any evidence to the contrary. Awesome.

    So much this. They know the community looks to them as gospel so I feel they should definately keep that in mind.

    4 listed thief specs even though only 1 is META(lulz) and they even post (solo) builds for thief.

    8 Ele builds with 1 even as low as 27k.

    5 Guard builds even as low as 33k.

    We should definately have at least a Condi Reaper listed. I would even go so far as to say we should have Power Scourge listed as I have seen posts with it at 31-34k which is MORE than viable. They basically shoehorn necro into one role because they hate it and the rest of the community follows like lemmings. And while barrier is not “wanted” how much easier would a raid be with 4 necro dps spamming barriers on the raid and with the healing and doing extremely competent dps. Meanwhile the community continues to think one shot glass Weaver is the only viable dps because it is “higher”. That is not their fault. But, either only provide the one recommended meta build and thats it, or provide all viable builds.

    If you had read the info supplied with the builds you would know things, and knowing things would stop you from making yourself look clueless and hateful on the forum.

  • Zoltreez.6435Zoltreez.6435 Member ✭✭✭

    @Substatic.6958 said:
    So the best raid class, the best wpvp class, the best spvp class.

    im still on the Necro forums right ?

  • SirPrizeBartSachs.4670SirPrizeBartSachs.4670 Member ✭✭
    edited October 5, 2017

    @Drarnor Kunoram.5180 said:

    @Exqq.7451 said:
    Interesting. Renegade runes recommended. Also, why does thief have like 5 different build benchmarks? From what I have been reading here Power Reaper and Power Scourge are around where the low end Thief benchmarks are. I'll never understand why people take these guys as gospel. Discuss.

    https://qtfy.eu/guildwars/benchmarks-path-of-fire/

    Edit: Also, they tested Firebrand with Viper because the tester was too poor to get Grieving and does not have Legendary according to their reddit posting.

    I'd like to see them re-run that with Nightmare/Trapper, personally. I'm not sure the additional 100 condition damage +7% is worth the 25% duration loss on burns, torment, and poison (and 5% on bleeds).

    They did, actually. They compared Renegade to Nightmare/Trapper to Tormenting runes, and the difference between them were quite small. So yes they did give up 25% burn and torment duration for the +7% condition damage modifier for an overall small increase in dps. Here's a comment from one of the qT members in the reddit thread:

    You overcap bleeding with the nightmare/trapper setup slightly and keeping up more than 2 shards on certain points is kinda overcap with 89.80% Condi Duration (full viper + sinister boots). Split phases or certain mechanics on same raid bosses bring you back to 3 viable shades ammo. You also gain an 7% modifier with the renegade rune and dont overcap bleeding anymore. The difference between the setups isnt that big like some people would think. Compared on most logs between the 3 viable setups (tormenting rune still doesnt work with the punishment heal) the damage difference was between 500dps. I used the shadow fiend cuz it's doing passive more dps than using the poison cloud active for an dmg increase. On most raid bosses you would take epidemic over shadow fiend for the cleave. :)

    I'll stick with Nightmare+Trapper since I run fractals as well, and the increased duration for other conditions (such as fear) would generally be more useful over 500 more dps.

  • But... you can't keep two shades up constantly, let alone three.

    Plague Signet is the only skill in the game that is worse when traited.

  • Lexan.5930Lexan.5930 Member ✭✭✭

    this makes me very happy as now maybe the vast majority of people wont be spitting on necro's all the time. Wait until people realise that was can heal and might gen at the same time while still putting out power damage and then we might even have people looking for ps necro's (i can dream)

    i like how they have a disclaimer about these benchmarks being in a vacume and how it's not perfect and as long as people play their builds a lot is viable, but we all know no one reads that far. They only want speed, who cares about if people know the mechanics as long as they have a "meta" build

  • Yup, in their rotation video you can see the number of shades dips down to 1 occasionally, but never for long. It does assume there is a chrono giving permanent alacrity, so one constant shade would be a far more reasonable assumption for most people. That's a loss of 5% condition duration, and bleeding wouldn't even be capped anymore.

  • Lexan.5930Lexan.5930 Member ✭✭✭

    @Exqq.7451 said:
    Interesting. Renegade runes recommended. Also, why does thief have like 5 different build benchmarks? From what I have been reading here Power Reaper and Power Scourge are around where the low end Thief benchmarks are. I'll never understand why people take these guys as gospel. Discuss.

    https://qtfy.eu/guildwars/benchmarks-path-of-fire/

    Edit: Also, they tested Firebrand with Viper because the tester was too poor to get Grieving and does not have Legendary according to their reddit posting.

    i've done some theory crafting on the build website and for the most part berzerker or renegade is pretty close to each other. I would bet the power would push base dps a bit higher than ferocity unless you have fury all the time. The extra 2% condi dmg from the runes adds like .5% condition durration from passive traits.

    and yea people spit on power necro because you know, its a necro. But power scourge can do some pretty good damage especially in multi target situations.

  • Exqq.7451Exqq.7451 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 5, 2017

    @LamaLeif.5381 said:

    @Exqq.7451 said:

    @Wintermute.5408 said:

    @Zenith.7301 said:

    @Wintermute.5408 said:
    7 mesmer becnhmarks. They do love their mesmers...

    Hurray for DPS though. Inb4 nerfs.

    They're condi and power variants of chrono, condi variant of mirage, and power mesmer. All of which are used builds. What build other than scourge or condi reaper is a necro build used in raids?

    You have some nerve to be complaining when you got an apex elite dps spec with utility and godly cleave, while the mesmer's mirage is just a garbage single target ramp up version that does 4k less DPS than you, doesn't cleave, and offers zero utility.

    Mesmer is the single class thus far without a competitive DPS build for a raid.

    Ok, if you want to take my kitten attempts at humor that seriously...

    6 of those builds are effectively one and the same chrono buff bot with various degrees of kitten damage. Yet they found the time to test them all.

    Then there's mirage, combining middle of the road damage with non-existant survivability and being bugged up the kitten. Yet there it is, tested.

    And then there's one necro build. 1. Not even consideration given to any form of power builds. "Oh, but power necros suck!" So does the majority of those 7 mesmer builds. Not even consideration given to Scourge support. "Oh, but Scourge support sucks!" So does Mirage DPS. Or support Herald. Yet there they are. kitten, even for one benchmark they did bother testing they got gearing wrong. Quality effort from our meta overlords! And THOSE guys get to determine whether necro is taken or not into PVE groups. Guys that can't even be bothered to test necro to the degree they test their mains. Would they completely fail at that 1 benchmark they did, they would say "oh well, Scourge is unviable", and then entire PVE community would roll with it despite any evidence to the contrary. Awesome.

    So much this. They know the community looks to them as gospel so I feel they should definately keep that in mind.

    4 listed thief specs even though only 1 is META(lulz) and they even post (solo) builds for thief.

    8 Ele builds with 1 even as low as 27k.

    5 Guard builds even as low as 33k.

    We should definately have at least a Condi Reaper listed. I would even go so far as to say we should have Power Scourge listed as I have seen posts with it at 31-34k which is MORE than viable. They basically shoehorn necro into one role because they hate it and the rest of the community follows like lemmings. And while barrier is not “wanted” how much easier would a raid be with 4 necro dps spamming barriers on the raid and with the healing and doing extremely competent dps. Meanwhile the community continues to think one shot glass Weaver is the only viable dps because it is “higher”. That is not their fault. But, either only provide the one recommended meta build and thats it, or provide all viable builds.

    If you had read the info supplied with the builds you would know things, and knowing things would stop you from making yourself look clueless and hateful on the forum.

    Not sure how I look hateful but if I did, well, my bad. Secondly, could you point to which information you are talking about on the info supplied with the builds? I looked through [qT] site and all I could find was surface quality information and build links. If I missed something I would certainly take a look and better inform myself.

    Again, I was not saying any of what they give is incorrect, just that I feel it should be either: A... more comprehensive or B... only show the one META variant. Because, showing several variants for one class and only one variant for another could certainly lead members of the community to believe that a profession only has one viable build, when this is certainly not the case.

  • RabbitUp.8294RabbitUp.8294 Member ✭✭✭

    @Exqq.7451 said:

    @Wintermute.5408 said:

    @Zenith.7301 said:

    @Wintermute.5408 said:
    7 mesmer becnhmarks. They do love their mesmers...

    Hurray for DPS though. Inb4 nerfs.

    They're condi and power variants of chrono, condi variant of mirage, and power mesmer. All of which are used builds. What build other than scourge or condi reaper is a necro build used in raids?

    You have some nerve to be complaining when you got an apex elite dps spec with utility and godly cleave, while the mesmer's mirage is just a garbage single target ramp up version that does 4k less DPS than you, doesn't cleave, and offers zero utility.

    Mesmer is the single class thus far without a competitive DPS build for a raid.

    Ok, if you want to take my kitten attempts at humor that seriously...

    6 of those builds are effectively one and the same chrono buff bot with various degrees of kitten damage. Yet they found the time to test them all.

    Then there's mirage, combining middle of the road damage with non-existant survivability and being bugged up the kitten. Yet there it is, tested.

    And then there's one necro build. 1. Not even consideration given to any form of power builds. "Oh, but power necros suck!" So does the majority of those 7 mesmer builds. Not even consideration given to Scourge support. "Oh, but Scourge support sucks!" So does Mirage DPS. Or support Herald. Yet there they are. kitten, even for one benchmark they did bother testing they got gearing wrong. Quality effort from our meta overlords! And THOSE guys get to determine whether necro is taken or not into PVE groups. Guys that can't even be bothered to test necro to the degree they test their mains. Would they completely fail at that 1 benchmark they did, they would say "oh well, Scourge is unviable", and then entire PVE community would roll with it despite any evidence to the contrary. Awesome.

    So much this. They know the community looks to them as gospel so I feel they should definately keep that in mind.

    4 listed thief specs even though only 1 is META(lulz) and they even post (solo) builds for thief.

    8 Ele builds with 1 even as low as 27k.

    5 Guard builds even as low as 33k.

    We should definately have at least a Condi Reaper listed. I would even go so far as to say we should have Power Scourge listed as I have seen posts with it at 31-34k which is MORE than viable. They basically shoehorn necro into one role because they hate it and the rest of the community follows like lemmings. And while barrier is not “wanted” how much easier would a raid be with 4 necro dps spamming barriers on the raid and with the healing and doing extremely competent dps. Meanwhile the community continues to think one shot glass Weaver is the only viable dps because it is “higher”. That is not their fault. But, either only provide the one recommended meta build and thats it, or provide all viable builds.

    You could at least make an effort to understand why some otherwise similar builds are listed multiple times.

    Ele and Guardian have seperate big hitbox benchmarks. If another class had this discrepancy between hitbox sizes, they would be listed multiple times, too.

    DH at 33k is not low, and it's the only low hitbox benchmark on the table. The 27k Tempest benchmark is not listed as a viable build, but as a counterpart to the same build on big hitbox, so that people can know how the build performs on different bosses.

    The solo build for condiDD is only for benchmarking purposes, so that you don't need 4 other people to share venoms to if you want to test DD on your own.

    The chrono benchmarks are copypasted from previous benchmarks, and they are there as reference, since all 4 builds are used.

    You use just being vitriolic for no good reason.

  • Exqq.7451Exqq.7451 Member ✭✭✭

    @RabbitUp.8294 said:

    @Exqq.7451 said:

    @Wintermute.5408 said:

    @Zenith.7301 said:

    @Wintermute.5408 said:
    7 mesmer becnhmarks. They do love their mesmers...

    Hurray for DPS though. Inb4 nerfs.

    They're condi and power variants of chrono, condi variant of mirage, and power mesmer. All of which are used builds. What build other than scourge or condi reaper is a necro build used in raids?

    You have some nerve to be complaining when you got an apex elite dps spec with utility and godly cleave, while the mesmer's mirage is just a garbage single target ramp up version that does 4k less DPS than you, doesn't cleave, and offers zero utility.

    Mesmer is the single class thus far without a competitive DPS build for a raid.

    Ok, if you want to take my kitten attempts at humor that seriously...

    6 of those builds are effectively one and the same chrono buff bot with various degrees of kitten damage. Yet they found the time to test them all.

    Then there's mirage, combining middle of the road damage with non-existant survivability and being bugged up the kitten. Yet there it is, tested.

    And then there's one necro build. 1. Not even consideration given to any form of power builds. "Oh, but power necros suck!" So does the majority of those 7 mesmer builds. Not even consideration given to Scourge support. "Oh, but Scourge support sucks!" So does Mirage DPS. Or support Herald. Yet there they are. kitten, even for one benchmark they did bother testing they got gearing wrong. Quality effort from our meta overlords! And THOSE guys get to determine whether necro is taken or not into PVE groups. Guys that can't even be bothered to test necro to the degree they test their mains. Would they completely fail at that 1 benchmark they did, they would say "oh well, Scourge is unviable", and then entire PVE community would roll with it despite any evidence to the contrary. Awesome.

    So much this. They know the community looks to them as gospel so I feel they should definately keep that in mind.

    4 listed thief specs even though only 1 is META(lulz) and they even post (solo) builds for thief.

    8 Ele builds with 1 even as low as 27k.

    5 Guard builds even as low as 33k.

    We should definately have at least a Condi Reaper listed. I would even go so far as to say we should have Power Scourge listed as I have seen posts with it at 31-34k which is MORE than viable. They basically shoehorn necro into one role because they hate it and the rest of the community follows like lemmings. And while barrier is not “wanted” how much easier would a raid be with 4 necro dps spamming barriers on the raid and with the healing and doing extremely competent dps. Meanwhile the community continues to think one shot glass Weaver is the only viable dps because it is “higher”. That is not their fault. But, either only provide the one recommended meta build and thats it, or provide all viable builds.

    You could at least make an effort to understand why some otherwise similar builds are listed multiple times.

    Ele and Guardian have seperate big hitbox benchmarks. If another class had this discrepancy between hitbox sizes, they would be listed multiple times, too.

    DH at 33k is not low, and it's the only low hitbox benchmark on the table. The 27k Tempest benchmark is not listed as a viable build, but as a counterpart to the same build on big hitbox, so that people can know how the build performs on different bosses.

    The solo build for condiDD is only for benchmarking purposes, so that you don't need 4 other people to share venoms to if you want to test DD on your own.

    The chrono benchmarks are copypasted from previous benchmarks, and they are there as reference, since all 4 builds are used.

    You use just being vitriolic for no good reason.

    Yeah, I was. I appreciate the way you went through and explained that. I was clearly being a bit over the top and as my edited comment now shows, a bit full of shitcockery.

  • xarallei.4279xarallei.4279 Member ✭✭✭

    @Exqq.7451 said:

    Or support Herald. Yet there they are.

    Support Herald isn't listed in the benchmarks at all. And while it is listed as a build the ONLY reason it's there is because it does play a niche role in Deimos (hand kiting) VERY well. It's only meta for that one fight and not effective for everything else.

  • Oldirtbeard.9834Oldirtbeard.9834 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Exqq.7451 said:

    @Substatic.6958 said:
    So the best raid class, the best wpvp class, the best spvp class.

    Yeah, Arenanet is comming with a butcher's knife. It will be swift.

    TODAY AT ANET HEADQUARTERS SECRET STAFFING BUNKER
    {Staffing Leader} Team, welcome back from your weekend. I hope you all enjoy yourselves.
    {Team} It was great!
    {Staffing Leader} So we have a packed schedule today but none of that matters right now. We have something far more important to discuss as I'm sure most of you are aware.
    {Team} Umm... What happened?
    {Staffing Leader} As I am sure all of you have seen, [qT] posted their new benchmarks for the community. While I enjoy the community engagement this recent review by them brings to light an absolute failure on our part during the development of this content. Anyone know what I'm talking about?
    {Team} Necromancer is posting high results.
    {Staffing Leader} Who was responsible for this?
    {Team} Jerry was responsible, Sir.
    {Staffing Leader} Jerry, get your kitten AND GET OUT OF THE kitten BUILDING!
    {Staffing Leader} Now, it isn't too late. Can we fix this?
    {Team} YES, SIR!

    Are you implying that they're down one developer in balance leaving a team of only 2?

    “The only watchmaker is the blind forces of physics.”
    ― Richard Dawkins, The God Delusion

  • Oldirtbeard.9834Oldirtbeard.9834 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 10, 2017

    @Lalainnia.3598 said:
    It's just personal bias really, each of the ppl that post the builds post what they feel is important or not while 2 of those thief builds are pretty meh they work for what its attached to. Like you stated though ppl shouldn't take everything as gospel large portion of the time ppl will use a suggested build and not use it to its full capacity to the point where something like power reaper or power scourge could surpass it.

    All around though its honestly good they do this if anyone remembers why the berserk meta was a thing in dungeons was because you would have like 3-4 ppl in a group with a bunch of pure toughness vit stats and no damage because that's what they used in open world and made them feel safe aka face tank stuff. It even happens in your basic pug group stuff today ppl go into raids with heavy toughness vit or some other non important stat thinking they can fulfill the role of "dps" just based on the class and not the gear. What's great now though is pretty much every single class has something they can play as dps now and pass fights at a healthy pace. Now they just need to work on breaking the double chrono druid and ps warrior set up lol!

    Also hooray for condi scourge being awesome dps

    Except for us Power Reapers.

    “The only watchmaker is the blind forces of physics.”
    ― Richard Dawkins, The God Delusion

  • DoM.8396DoM.8396 Member ✭✭

    @Drarnor Kunoram.5180 said:

    @Exqq.7451 said:
    Interesting. Renegade runes recommended. Also, why does thief have like 5 different build benchmarks? From what I have been reading here Power Reaper and Power Scourge are around where the low end Thief benchmarks are. I'll never understand why people take these guys as gospel. Discuss.

    https://qtfy.eu/guildwars/benchmarks-path-of-fire/

    Edit: Also, they tested Firebrand with Viper because the tester was too poor to get Grieving and does not have Legendary according to their reddit posting.

    I'd like to see them re-run that with Nightmare/Trapper, personally. I'm not sure the additional 100 condition damage +7% is worth the 25% duration loss on burns, torment, and poison (and 5% on bleeds).

    We ran this we just don't post every single recording to youtube and the site. If it was a better option then we would of posted those runes instead :+1:

    We test multiple runes and sigils against these builds. We do not pick the first set and go with it. You should join our discord if you haven't and discuss this with Moorbazan from qT.

  • DoM.8396DoM.8396 Member ✭✭

    @Exqq.7451 said:

    @LamaLeif.5381 said:

    @Exqq.7451 said:

    @Wintermute.5408 said:

    @Zenith.7301 said:

    @Wintermute.5408 said:
    7 mesmer becnhmarks. They do love their mesmers...

    Hurray for DPS though. Inb4 nerfs.

    They're condi and power variants of chrono, condi variant of mirage, and power mesmer. All of which are used builds. What build other than scourge or condi reaper is a necro build used in raids?

    You have some nerve to be complaining when you got an apex elite dps spec with utility and godly cleave, while the mesmer's mirage is just a garbage single target ramp up version that does 4k less DPS than you, doesn't cleave, and offers zero utility.

    Mesmer is the single class thus far without a competitive DPS build for a raid.

    Ok, if you want to take my kitten attempts at humor that seriously...

    6 of those builds are effectively one and the same chrono buff bot with various degrees of kitten damage. Yet they found the time to test them all.

    Then there's mirage, combining middle of the road damage with non-existant survivability and being bugged up the kitten. Yet there it is, tested.

    And then there's one necro build. 1. Not even consideration given to any form of power builds. "Oh, but power necros suck!" So does the majority of those 7 mesmer builds. Not even consideration given to Scourge support. "Oh, but Scourge support sucks!" So does Mirage DPS. Or support Herald. Yet there they are. kitten, even for one benchmark they did bother testing they got gearing wrong. Quality effort from our meta overlords! And THOSE guys get to determine whether necro is taken or not into PVE groups. Guys that can't even be bothered to test necro to the degree they test their mains. Would they completely fail at that 1 benchmark they did, they would say "oh well, Scourge is unviable", and then entire PVE community would roll with it despite any evidence to the contrary. Awesome.

    So much this. They know the community looks to them as gospel so I feel they should definately keep that in mind.

    4 listed thief specs even though only 1 is META(lulz) and they even post (solo) builds for thief.

    8 Ele builds with 1 even as low as 27k.

    5 Guard builds even as low as 33k.

    We should definately have at least a Condi Reaper listed. I would even go so far as to say we should have Power Scourge listed as I have seen posts with it at 31-34k which is MORE than viable. They basically shoehorn necro into one role because they hate it and the rest of the community follows like lemmings. And while barrier is not “wanted” how much easier would a raid be with 4 necro dps spamming barriers on the raid and with the healing and doing extremely competent dps. Meanwhile the community continues to think one shot glass Weaver is the only viable dps because it is “higher”. That is not their fault. But, either only provide the one recommended meta build and thats it, or provide all viable builds.

    If you had read the info supplied with the builds you would know things, and knowing things would stop you from making yourself look clueless and hateful on the forum.

    Not sure how I look hateful but if I did, well, my bad. Secondly, could you point to which information you are talking about on the info supplied with the builds? I looked through [qT] site and all I could find was surface quality information and build links. If I missed something I would certainly take a look and better inform myself.

    Again, I was not saying any of what they give is incorrect, just that I feel it should be either: A... more comprehensive or B... only show the one META variant. Because, showing several variants for one class and only one variant for another could certainly lead members of the community to believe that a profession only has one viable build, when this is certainly not the case.

    The 27k Tempest build is posted because it's useful for fights such as Xera. The thief solo build is to show the difference between venoms and how much DPS they provide when you have a group vs solo. The other thief builds are made with love by Dealthy (thief enthusiast), that is why there is a D/D power deadeye build. Staff DD is there since before Condi thief and hasn't dropped low enough in DPS that we feel it needs to be retired.

    We have nothing against necro, we even ran a necro raid not too long ago just for fun and testing. It comes down to time and resources. No one has wanted to put in the resources and time to make a build for power necro yet because we know it's mediocre at best. Maybe sometime soon we'll get it done. I encourage you to join our discord and discuss this further in our necromancer theorycrafting channel. Moorbazan is our main necro number cruncher.

  • DoM.8396DoM.8396 Member ✭✭

    @Lexan.5930 said:

    @Exqq.7451 said:
    Interesting. Renegade runes recommended. Also, why does thief have like 5 different build benchmarks? From what I have been reading here Power Reaper and Power Scourge are around where the low end Thief benchmarks are. I'll never understand why people take these guys as gospel. Discuss.

    https://qtfy.eu/guildwars/benchmarks-path-of-fire/

    Edit: Also, they tested Firebrand with Viper because the tester was too poor to get Grieving and does not have Legendary according to their reddit posting.

    i've done some theory crafting on the build website and for the most part berzerker or renegade is pretty close to each other. I would bet the power would push base dps a bit higher than ferocity unless you have fury all the time. The extra 2% condi dmg from the runes adds like .5% condition durration from passive traits.

    and yea people spit on power necro because you know, its a necro. But power scourge can do some pretty good damage especially in multi target situations.

    I advise you to not use gw2skills stat calculations. There are quite a few flaws with it. Your best option is to make a spreadsheet or use DEKeyz spreadsheet.

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