Sevenshot. — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Sevenshot.

Nivik.2961Nivik.2961 Member ✭✭
edited October 5, 2017 in Revenant

My findings with this skill are as follows:

  • I find this skill very difficult to get value out of, and arguably, even when it hits perfectly(which is difficult to pull off) it does not reward you nearly enough.
  • I am finding that on targets with larger hit boxes the skill actually makes much more sense....but let's add a variety of conditions here to add value for players to feel good about using this skill. Maybe the more arrows you connect with the more conditions you apply, or just a standard "slow" in order to give it a bit more defensive posture
  • I would love to see a solid defensive element added to this weapon in order to make it feel really great to use

What do you guys think? I think the weapon could be so much more effective and rewarding if we could just slot the right skill in here or fix sevenshot so that it feels good

Comments

  • Esquilax.3491Esquilax.3491 Member ✭✭✭

    Maybe "If all projectiles hit, apply burning"?

    It needs to be significant, because the shortbow DPS sucks anyway, and I can imagine this skill being pretty much impossible to connect on a player. So I would say 7 stacks for 4 seconds.
    I mean, even with this the shortbow probably won't be used for DPS lol.

    One REALLY annoying feature of this skill is that in open world the mob aggro range seems to be exactly the same as the perfect range for Sevenshot. So it's extremely difficult to line up a hit for an opener, and that's exactly what this skill should be used for. So you walk to the mob, try to line up the seven arrows, it runs straight at you and only 1-2 hit.

  • Celldrax.2849Celldrax.2849 Member ✭✭✭

    It really does need its functionality changed. As it is, it's often semi useless against most single targets, and is very difficult to use well against anything that's moving (especially if you're also strafing).

    Would be so much more effective if they remove the manual targeting any maybe even add some minor homing function to the projectiles.

  • The Spiral King.2483The Spiral King.2483 Member ✭✭
    edited October 5, 2017

    @Draygorn.7012 said:
    It would be cool if the projectiles could leave lines on the ground (similar to mordrem sniper) that pulse chill on enemies while pulsing swiftness on allies. Maybe remove the initial torment application to compensate. The reason I suggest this is so SB can have some kind of utility that could keep melee enemies off you when you attack at range.

    This would also have good synergy with Abyssal Chill along with some minor group support, I like it. I mean right now in perfect conditions I can apply 7 stacks of torment for 4 seconds with a 7 second cooldown. Or I could just stick with my mace and do a constant easy 5 stacks for 10 seconds, 1200 range, and three blast finishers. Sevenshot is horrifically awful as is, I can't think of any justification for such a terrible skill making it through initial testing.

  • Nivik.2961Nivik.2961 Member ✭✭

    Leaving a chill ground effect is actually a really great idea, and I would think that's something that wouldn't be that difficult to instate @Draygorn.7012

  • Nivik.2961Nivik.2961 Member ✭✭

    I would love to see this thread continued. Especially some ideas from established revs in the community. I think this skill specifically (if changed properly) could really help this elite spec feel really great. Please chime in with how you feel about laying a defensive ground effect with sevenshot, or some of your own ideas.
    If the community can come together and focus on one issue at a time, I think the development team will take a look at it

  • Milan.9035Milan.9035 Member ✭✭✭

    If they didnt want to change the skill too much they could just bring the portals closer together and higher above or like in a cirle above your head to shoot like a cannon. Wait thats the f3 skill lol. Yea they need to redo it. Make it a mobility move a teleport forward or back or a stealth something defencive.

  • Absconditus.6804Absconditus.6804 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 5, 2017

    I don't think Sevenshot is necessarily terrible. It's a bit hard to work with at times, not arguing that, but it gives you 7 chances to trigger combo field effects, as well as 7 chances to trigger Rampant Vex for more Torment. It's 7 stacks of Kalla's Fervor instantly with 100% Critical Chance, though Fervor isn't exactly hard to generate. I wouldn't want that to change personally. To say it has no synergy with the kit is well, not even accurate. I wish we could adjust the sweet spot though, not be forced into using it at max range for it to have any decent effect when everyone and everything can close the distance it requires before it even fires. I liked how it functioned when Ground Targeting was set to Instant during the Demo.

    The more I use it, the better I get at leading my shots I might add. AI and players trying to run away tend to be semi-predictable in their movement. In PvE it's honestly not that hard to land, since AI tends to go for summons, still, I'd like the ability to adjust the sweet spot. Actually, it'd honestly be nice to see the summons being granted each their own respective combo fields. That would already improve Sevenshot seven times over.

    Seafarer's Rest | Enryon | Mistwarden [Hero]

  • Exalted Quality.8534Exalted Quality.8534 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 5, 2017

    It's a finicky skill because you have to be at the perfect distance to optimize the damage. The difficulty in successfully landing it is greater if your target is not stationary. Also, the 3/4s activation time feels like an eternity when trying to land a skill that demands the precision that Sevenshot does in its current form.

    I propose making this a defensive/mobility skill as many others have suggested. Something similar to the Thief's short bow #5 skill could work. Since energy is somewhat easier to regain than initiative, they could keep it in check with the Ammo system (which, to my knowledge, has not been implemented for any Rev skills yet).

    Sevenshot - 1/4sec activation - 7 Energy, 7 sec cooldown for 1 charge (Max of 2 charges), Range=900, Radius=180? (match radius of Spiritcrush if not 180)
    Description: Shaowstep to target location to harass your foes.
    Damage: 777, Apply 1 stack of torment (7sec)
    Combo Finisher: Blast?
    While at or above the threshold of Kalla's Fervor (5 stacks) apply 777 barrier to nearby allies for each foe struck (Maximum=5 foes)

    The last bit with the barrier could, admittedly, make this skill do too much for the energy cost, but it would be fun to use and provide the Renegade with a little team support. Generally, I believe modifying this skill as described above would add some much needed survivability/mobility to Renegade in sPvP/WvW scenarios without breaking the game.

    What are your thoughts?

  • DiogoSilva.7089DiogoSilva.7089 Member ✭✭✭

    The skill misses too easily, even when you think you are at the perfect range. But the damage payoff when you hit with most of your arrows isn't that great either. Finally, this skill has no synergy with the rest of the kit neither.

    In fact, renegade hardly has any synergy with itself or with anything, really.

  • @Exalted Quality.8534 said:
    It's a finicky skill because you have to be at the perfect distance to optimize the damage. The difficulty in successfully landing it is greater if your target is not stationary. Also, the 3/4s activation time feels like an eternity when trying to land a skill that demands the precision that Sevenshot does in its current form.

    I propose making this a defensive/mobility skill as many others have suggested. Something similar to the Thief's short bow #5 skill could work. Since energy is somewhat easier to regain than initiative, they could keep it in check with the Ammo system (which, to my knowledge, has not been implemented for any Rev skills yet).

    Sevenshot - 1/4sec activation - 7 Energy, 7 sec cooldown for 1 charge (Max of 2 charges), Range=900, Radius=180? (match radius of Spiritcrush if not 180)
    Description: Shaowstep to target location to harass your foes.
    Damage: 777, Apply 1 stack of torment (7sec)
    Combo Finisher: Blast?
    While at or above the threshold of Kalla's Fervor (5 stacks) apply 777 barrier to nearby allies for each foe struck (Maximum=5 foes)

    The last bit with the barrier could, admittedly, make this skill do too much for the energy cost, but it would be fun to use and provide the Renegade with a little team support. Generally, I believe modifying this skill as described above would add some much needed survivability/mobility to Renegade in sPvP/WvW scenarios without breaking the game.

    What are your thoughts?

    I like the thought of this, but I think the overall feel of SB would benefit more from a retreat effect such as on Mesmer staff 2. Keep the skill as-is, but reduce activation to 1/4 second and add a 900 range backward teleport and have the shots fire from the new location with a slight increase to projectile speed. This would maintain the "skill-shot" nature of the ability, but it would be more within the realm of reason. Perhaps code in a 1/2 second aftercast to keep it tuned.

  • Alchimist.4738Alchimist.4738 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 5, 2017

    @Draygorn.7012 said:
    It would be cool if the projectiles could leave lines on the ground (similar to mordrem sniper) that pulse chill on enemies while pulsing swiftness on allies. Maybe remove the initial torment application to compensate. The reason I suggest this is so SB can have some kind of utility that could keep melee enemies off you when you attack at range.

    Someone at Anet has to do to this, this is a great idea, the skill doesn't need a huge revamp, it’s still unique, it synergize with Abyssal Chill, is not particularly overpowered nor underwhelming, , you can use it in melee without feeling that you just wasted half of the skill potential, you can use it at maximum range and even if you missed you’ll get something thanks to the ground lines that either dissuade the enemy to come to you, or make him slower, or do damage thanks to Abyssal Chill, and it’s easy to do as the ground effect is already in the game.

    That’d be a great fix for the skill, after that they only need to increase burning duration on Spiritcrush and Scorchrazor, then allow Spiritcrush to be casted without a line of sight, and finally make sure Bloodbane Path doesn’t miss one time out of five, and the short bow will be worthwhile.

  • Nivik.2961Nivik.2961 Member ✭✭

    Yeah I have to say, a lot of the ideas are really good but I think the one that has the the best shot at being implemented is the lines on the ground pulsing chill ( as well as swiftness for allies would be AMAZING)
    This way, the players that are enjoying sevenshot don't get the rug pulled out from underneath them, while giving all of us looking for added utility to the bow something to be very happy about

  • Nivik.2961Nivik.2961 Member ✭✭

    Anet, this is a very civil thread centering around 1 skill. It would be pretty great if you could let us know you have seen it and whether this is something that sounds reasonable : )

  • Karaha.3290Karaha.3290 Member ✭✭✭

    Maybe cancel the ground target, make it enemy targeted.
    The projectile could dynamicly change the angle to hit the target at any range, so you wouldnt need a 'perfect range' to get 7 hits. (i hope this sentence is understandable^^)

    I also really like the chill pulse line idea.

  • otto.5684otto.5684 Member ✭✭✭✭

    The skill does not work in sPvP and barely in PvE. Honestly, I would rather have it completely reworked into a mobility + evasion skill.

  • messiah.1908messiah.1908 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @otto.5684 said:
    The skill does not work in sPvP and barely in PvE. Honestly, I would rather have it completely reworked into a mobility + evasion skill.

    like ranger sb skill. evade backwards 1 sec range 450 and give swiftness. no need a target to activate it. can be shot behind you.
    maybe 1 arrow which gives torment, cripple, vulnerability, chill, bleeding, weakness and blind for 5 sec . like sevenshot.
    the dmg will be low as only torment, bleed and maybe 2 torment (traited from chill) will do the dmg about 1.5k-2.5k
    and also used as cover condition tool.

  • In open world pve, I usually use it exclusively as an engage skill. Open the fight with it, then move in with mace/axe. Other than that, it’s fairly useless unless you plan to main sb and stay at range the entire fight.

  • otto.5684otto.5684 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 9, 2017

    @messiah.1908 said:

    @otto.5684 said:
    The skill does not work in sPvP and barely in PvE. Honestly, I would rather have it completely reworked into a mobility + evasion skill.

    like ranger sb skill. evade backwards 1 sec range 450 and give swiftness. no need a target to activate it. can be shot behind you.
    maybe 1 arrow which gives torment, cripple, vulnerability, chill, bleeding, weakness and blind for 5 sec . like sevenshot.
    the dmg will be low as only torment, bleed and maybe 2 torment (traited from chill) will do the dmg about 1.5k-2.5k
    and also used as cover condition tool.

    That would be great. It allows you to play hit and run like... a renegade. Not a mediocre DH.

    The seven shot damage then should be distributed among other skills.

  • messiah.1908messiah.1908 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @otto.5684 said:

    @messiah.1908 said:

    @otto.5684 said:
    The skill does not work in sPvP and barely in PvE. Honestly, I would rather have it completely reworked into a mobility + evasion skill.

    like ranger sb skill. evade backwards 1 sec range 450 and give swiftness. no need a target to activate it. can be shot behind you.
    maybe 1 arrow which gives torment, cripple, vulnerability, chill, bleeding, weakness and blind for 5 sec . like sevenshot.
    the dmg will be low as only torment, bleed and maybe 2 torment (traited from chill) will do the dmg about 1.5k-2.5k
    and also used as cover condition tool.

    That would be great. It allows you to play hit and run like... a renegade. Not a mediocre DH.

    The seven shot damage then should be distributed among other skills.

    sb dmg need buff nevertheless direct dmg increase by 25% and duration of all conditions by 50%
    AA needs more duration as you can only stack 6-8 bleeding stacks. while ranger can 18 stacks.
    bleed dmg trait should increase to 33% like ranger.
    also burn duration should increase by 50%. slow should change as it means nothing to revenenat.

  • messiah.1908messiah.1908 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Selendile.9106 said:
    In open world pve, I usually use it exclusively as an engage skill. Open the fight with it, then move in with mace/axe. Other than that, it’s fairly useless unless you plan to main sb and stay at range the entire fight.

    why to use nrg on a skill which is not useful ? :D

  • @messiah.1908 said:

    @Selendile.9106 said:
    In open world pve, I usually use it exclusively as an engage skill. Open the fight with it, then move in with mace/axe. Other than that, it’s fairly useless unless you plan to main sb and stay at range the entire fight.

    why to use nrg on a skill which is not useful ? :D

    The engage option makes sense. The energy cost is small, and by beginning combat at range you start your energy regen sooner. Even if only one hits, you effectively get a free stack of torment and the benefit of the mob coming to you rather than you chasing it. Arguably better to just auto for the early engage so you start with higher energy, but sevenshot is worth it on the rare occasion you can land all seven (such as when engaging).

  • messiah.1908messiah.1908 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ardent Heretic.8216 said:

    @messiah.1908 said:

    @Selendile.9106 said:
    In open world pve, I usually use it exclusively as an engage skill. Open the fight with it, then move in with mace/axe. Other than that, it’s fairly useless unless you plan to main sb and stay at range the entire fight.

    why to use nrg on a skill which is not useful ? :D

    The engage option makes sense. The energy cost is small, and by beginning combat at range you start your energy regen sooner. Even if only one hits, you effectively get a free stack of torment and the benefit of the mob coming to you rather than you chasing it. Arguably better to just auto for the early engage so you start with higher energy, but sevenshot is worth it on the rare occasion you can land all seven (such as when engaging).

    to land all 7 i must stand and not move aim for couple of second and hope your target is not moving. so in pve i usually have 5 stacks and wvw and pvp 0-1 stack :(
    so to engage i use AA or blood path

  • otto.5684otto.5684 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @messiah.1908 said:

    @otto.5684 said:

    @messiah.1908 said:

    @otto.5684 said:
    The skill does not work in sPvP and barely in PvE. Honestly, I would rather have it completely reworked into a mobility + evasion skill.

    like ranger sb skill. evade backwards 1 sec range 450 and give swiftness. no need a target to activate it. can be shot behind you.
    maybe 1 arrow which gives torment, cripple, vulnerability, chill, bleeding, weakness and blind for 5 sec . like sevenshot.
    the dmg will be low as only torment, bleed and maybe 2 torment (traited from chill) will do the dmg about 1.5k-2.5k
    and also used as cover condition tool.

    That would be great. It allows you to play hit and run like... a renegade. Not a mediocre DH.

    The seven shot damage then should be distributed among other skills.

    sb dmg need buff nevertheless direct dmg increase by 25% and duration of all conditions by 50%
    AA needs more duration as you can only stack 6-8 bleeding stacks. while ranger can 18 stacks.
    bleed dmg trait should increase to 33% like ranger.
    also burn duration should increase by 50%. slow should change as it means nothing to revenenat.

    I think the additional burn on SB 4 will be great, once they make not land after 15 hours from cast...

    For SB, I think the objective should be to make it the go to sPvP and WvW weapon for condi build. It will never be able to compete with mace/axe in PvE, especially that Rev sustainability in PvE is fairly strong. This gives you little incentive to go to range, unless you really have to. And honestly, I think the issue is not necessarily that SB skills do not do enough damage, but cannot consistency and accurately hit enemies, even in PvE.

    For SB to be a good weapon in PvP it needs blocks, evades and mobility, like every other rev weapon.. Renegade utilities and F2-F4 skills all need major work to be functional in PvP as well. However, renegade cannot be a slow area denial elite in PvP. It does not synergize with the rev desgin and Kalla's utilities do not provide area denial. SB must provide the missing mobility and sustainability that renegade lacks.

    Which leaves condi nuking in PvP... but that is a conversation for another time.

  • messiah.1908messiah.1908 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @otto.5684 said:

    @messiah.1908 said:

    @otto.5684 said:

    @messiah.1908 said:

    @otto.5684 said:
    The skill does not work in sPvP and barely in PvE. Honestly, I would rather have it completely reworked into a mobility + evasion skill.

    like ranger sb skill. evade backwards 1 sec range 450 and give swiftness. no need a target to activate it. can be shot behind you.
    maybe 1 arrow which gives torment, cripple, vulnerability, chill, bleeding, weakness and blind for 5 sec . like sevenshot.
    the dmg will be low as only torment, bleed and maybe 2 torment (traited from chill) will do the dmg about 1.5k-2.5k
    and also used as cover condition tool.

    That would be great. It allows you to play hit and run like... a renegade. Not a mediocre DH.

    The seven shot damage then should be distributed among other skills.

    sb dmg need buff nevertheless direct dmg increase by 25% and duration of all conditions by 50%
    AA needs more duration as you can only stack 6-8 bleeding stacks. while ranger can 18 stacks.
    bleed dmg trait should increase to 33% like ranger.
    also burn duration should increase by 50%. slow should change as it means nothing to revenenat.

    I think the additional burn on SB 4 will be great, once they make not land after 15 hours from cast...

    For SB, I think the objective should be to make it the go to sPvP and WvW weapon for condi build. It will never be able to compete with mace/axe in PvE, especially that Rev sustainability in PvE is fairly strong. This gives you little incentive to go to range, unless you really have to. And honestly, I think the issue is not necessarily that SB skills do not do enough damage, but cannot consistency and accurately hit enemies, even in PvE.

    For SB to be a good weapon in PvP it needs blocks, evades and mobility, like every other rev weapon.. Renegade utilities and F2-F4 skills all need major work to be functional in PvP as well. However, renegade cannot be a slow area denial elite in PvP. It does not synergize with the rev desgin and Kalla's utilities do not provide area denial. SB must provide the missing mobility and sustainability that renegade lacks.

    Which leaves condi nuking in PvP... but that is a conversation for another time.

    if you check it closely you will see renegade isnt design for condition rather to buff you team with more dmg wether its condi or power.
    you can give 10 might stacks, aoe cc, aoe healing, aoe leech and dmg, aoe alacrity. the sb is just another weapon to stay at range while you team is on melee.

  • Probably i should have said something in here, rather than create a new post (https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/10840/how-shortbow-skill-3-sevenshot-should-work#latest)

  • otto.5684otto.5684 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @messiah.1908 said:

    @otto.5684 said:

    @messiah.1908 said:

    @otto.5684 said:

    @messiah.1908 said:

    @otto.5684 said:
    The skill does not work in sPvP and barely in PvE. Honestly, I would rather have it completely reworked into a mobility + evasion skill.

    like ranger sb skill. evade backwards 1 sec range 450 and give swiftness. no need a target to activate it. can be shot behind you.
    maybe 1 arrow which gives torment, cripple, vulnerability, chill, bleeding, weakness and blind for 5 sec . like sevenshot.
    the dmg will be low as only torment, bleed and maybe 2 torment (traited from chill) will do the dmg about 1.5k-2.5k
    and also used as cover condition tool.

    That would be great. It allows you to play hit and run like... a renegade. Not a mediocre DH.

    The seven shot damage then should be distributed among other skills.

    sb dmg need buff nevertheless direct dmg increase by 25% and duration of all conditions by 50%
    AA needs more duration as you can only stack 6-8 bleeding stacks. while ranger can 18 stacks.
    bleed dmg trait should increase to 33% like ranger.
    also burn duration should increase by 50%. slow should change as it means nothing to revenenat.

    I think the additional burn on SB 4 will be great, once they make not land after 15 hours from cast...

    For SB, I think the objective should be to make it the go to sPvP and WvW weapon for condi build. It will never be able to compete with mace/axe in PvE, especially that Rev sustainability in PvE is fairly strong. This gives you little incentive to go to range, unless you really have to. And honestly, I think the issue is not necessarily that SB skills do not do enough damage, but cannot consistency and accurately hit enemies, even in PvE.

    For SB to be a good weapon in PvP it needs blocks, evades and mobility, like every other rev weapon.. Renegade utilities and F2-F4 skills all need major work to be functional in PvP as well. However, renegade cannot be a slow area denial elite in PvP. It does not synergize with the rev desgin and Kalla's utilities do not provide area denial. SB must provide the missing mobility and sustainability that renegade lacks.

    Which leaves condi nuking in PvP... but that is a conversation for another time.

    if you check it closely you will see renegade isnt design for condition rather to buff you team with more dmg wether its condi or power.
    you can give 10 might stacks, aoe cc, aoe healing, aoe leech and dmg, aoe alacrity. the sb is just another weapon to stay at range while you team is on melee.

    Honestly the biggest support the entire renegede skill set offers is the 4 sec protection on summoning a warband, something that is neither strong nor unique.

    All the remaininng things are poorly designed garbage that only works as extra personal dps or a CC breaker.

    Also if the new weapon that is locked behind new elite should never be used in in PvE unless you obsolotely cannot get in melee range and never to be used in PvP, something is seriously wrong in design.

  • Matick.4132Matick.4132 Member ✭✭✭

    Hej Hej folks @ANet and all the others

    The Sevenshot is great and I got nothing to add, that hasn't already been said. Just to show my support for making this a 'fixed target', well, supporting the ability to fix it to your locked target – like other AoE or Bow-Skills do.
    It's an awesome skill but very hard to use in close combat or when it's getting kinda hectic.

    So I, too, would love to see this skill 'fixed'! :3

    thx,
    Bo

  • Ohoni.6057Ohoni.6057 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I think the spread is too wide to be practical in this game's terrain. Instead of being in a straight row aimed at a fixed point, they should either be homing, or they should fire from a circle behind your head, forming a cone, essentially, that is a bit wider than a charr character model at the widest, giving a much tighter grouping. That would make it much less prone to terrain clipping.

  • Rym.1469Rym.1469 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 30, 2017

    We used to be able to adjust the focal point manually in the beta, but Anet had fixed the one bug that didn't need fixing.

    The "reverse shotgun" idea could work in any other MMO than GW2, but doesn't work in GW2 combat system.

    Increase applied Torment duration with every arrow striking given unique enemy, enemies hit at the focal point get bonus burning. Reduce the cast time.

    Yeah, I stream once in a blue moon.

  • WOOO MORE TORMENT FOR MY 1-2 OUT OF 7 ARROWS THAT HIT NON-STATIONARY TARGETS!!! GREAT BUFF...FEELS GUD

  • Vyrulisse.1246Vyrulisse.1246 Member ✭✭✭

    It's pretty useless still. As are Spirits... dunno how they can be so out of touch with the problems Renegades are concerned about.

  • The cast time should be instant and the projectile speed should be kitten near instant as well. Or they could just make it a targeted skill instead of a skill shot. But whatever, as it stands if you can actually land it it's the highest damage attack on any rev wep, trouble is it's extremely difficult to do so especially since rev has no easy access to immobilize that I am aware of...

  • Hooglese.4860Hooglese.4860 Member ✭✭✭

    These are all valid points. Anet will ignore them promptly and maybe nerf it

  • This skill is still terrible in 2017.

  • Arkantos.7460Arkantos.7460 Member ✭✭✭

    plz anet make the skill faster, arrows should appear faster and faster shooting and MUCH MORE REWARDING WHEN ALL ARROWS HIT.... 100% more dps on target

  • Jack Skywalker.5674Jack Skywalker.5674 Member ✭✭
    edited November 20, 2017

    People should not be using shortbow without heartpiercer trait. Arena net never took into account people who take Renegade spec to for their condi damage Revenant to not take damage related traits. Mid line traits are for Kala/Malyx + Sb+Mace/Axe.
    Even with those SB skills piercing...nerfing Sevenshot to Fiveshot would be a buff....considering that at the drawing board,Arena net thought we can figure out for ourselves that we should not be using SB without Heartpiercer and access to utility skills that give mobility (the ones on Malyx and Shiro)

    I think this is how Arena net imagined Power Renegade would look like: Renegade/Invocation/Retri or Deva, no shortbow because the damage is very bad on something not focused on dealing condi damage.....althogh Ventari Renegade can work with shortbow....because you leave auto attack on and focus on managing utilities.

    My point:Arena net shoe horned people who want to do damage,or survive damage in a very tight pigeon hole. Same goes for Renegade healers, I've yet to see a Renegade Ventari Rev who thinks getting Heartpiercer to make SB work as intended was a good ideea.

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