I like how awful this class is every time I tried to come back to it — Guild Wars 2 Forums

I like how awful this class is every time I tried to come back to it

I went to play some other classes such as rev, thief, engi, ranger, and mesmer.

In PvE, I felt useful with other classes by providing bunch of important boons to allies, removing enemies' boons, and ccing while doing good dps or heals at the same time. Then I come back to this class, and it only do a single thing depending on build (dps/heal/basic boon kitten) and never everything at once like everyone else. On top of that it goes down easily if I was careless.

In PvP/WvW, I felt effective with other classes by just learning their skills in a week and figuring out matchups. I get to spam skills or facetank brainlessly when playing other classes, then I tried similar bs with ele and instantly die even though I'm supposedly playing a bunker build. It also feels nice to get an upper hand in a fight but can't ever actually finish an enemy off because they can simply run around to wait for their cd and sometimes even turn it all around by bursting me thanks to the toothpick ranged, snail paced animation mage theme. Or I'll land a cc on someone then try to go in for follow-up damage only to be out-traded by the person with his face on the floor because everyone else can instant cast spam. Let's also not forget putting down a well placed Meteor Shower only to cry for help from supports because retaliation destroyed my health bar while enemies just run around freely inside the meteor's AoE because barriers and protection.

And of course, there's a balance team that will nerf the class every time while simultaneously giving away all its unique effects/skills/traits to other classes & runes.

Ele is truely the best class for masochists.

<13

Comments

  • Zhaid Zhem.6508Zhaid Zhem.6508 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 29, 2019

    @LazySummer.2568 said:
    Let's also not forget putting down a well placed Meteor Shower only to cry for help from supports because retaliation destroyed my health bar while enemies just run around freely inside the meteor's AoE because barriers and protection.

    Happens a lot !
    Remember once with "no downstate", instant suicide :#

  • Waisenpai.6028Waisenpai.6028 Member ✭✭
    edited May 29, 2019

    Paying a scrapper is way stronger than any ele variant. We need a buff! Ele used to be equal footing to Engis, we were the scholar class version of them. :(

    Sword Weavers are decent 1v1 vs non POF metas in wvw. Sadly sword still has low packet damage, very small range and is easy to read. Good luck catching holo, mirage, or firebrand if fleeing from battle. You will never catch the others. And chill from Reapers gibs you so hard.

  • MyPuppy.8970MyPuppy.8970 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I've been on a break for a month or two, not sure if I should play again. I could play another class as well, but it feels boring. New players should get a warning sign before creating an ele. "Play at your own risk"

  • has yes ele on WvW ... good memories... brings some tears to my eyes... miss it sooooo much.

    Born into the battlefield...For the glory of WvW !

  • Arheundel.6451Arheundel.6451 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Lonami.2987 said:
    Elementalist has always been a mess. Back in the day, everyone else had other problems, so we kinda went unnoticed. Then the nerfs started piling up more and more, and while the others improved, we sank deeper and deeper.

    Too many players on denial never helped either. Oh, elementalist, it's been meta for so long! Yeah, first because of the fiery greatsword, then the ice bow, then lava font, and then nothing. At least banner slaves contribute to the whole party, and can do other things on their own, but elementalists? The flashy spam of useless attacks can only conceal the low numbers and poor design for so long.

    Over time, the truth has become undeniable. Been saying it for years, elementalist is the worst profession of the game. Once my main, nowadays barely more than a mule.

    Feel free to hang out around here if you wanna talk about potential redesign ideas, just for fun.

    Sadly it has always been like that for this class...where elite players winners of world tournaments , can go and state in the dev's face how bad the ele design is...you get some who claim otherwise , confident in their "skills" with the healbot build.

    -A wise man once said- "Fight cheese with cheese or be cheesed in return, mind not those who will accuse you of being a cheese as they like cheese themselves"

  • You know, I remember when weaver first came out, it was doing nearly 50k DPS.

    Ele isn't in the best spot currently, but I can't pretend that the class has always been doomed to failure and obscurity.

    "Self awareness is knowing when you're sitting at the throne of ignorance." --Leo G.

  • @Ganathar.4956 said:

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:
    You know, I remember when weaver first came out, it was doing nearly 50k DPS.

    Ele isn't in the best spot currently, but I can't pretend that the class has always been doomed to failure and obscurity.

    You shouldn't have to pretend because the past doesn't justify the present state of the profession. If that was the case then guardian should have been nerfed into obscurity forevermore in WvW, because it has defined the meta since day 1. Every profession has been broken at something at some point, but that's no excuse for destroying the class and then taking years to bring it back up again.

    You guys are lamenting that Ele has always been some underpowered and neglected profession. It wasn't. Hell, in PVE it isn't that bad even now. 35k DPS is nothing to scoff at, and it isn't that hard to play. I don't do PVP much, but from what I've seen on the thief forum, apparently weavers are this super-invulnerable monstrosity with unlimited sustain and explosive damage.

    "Self awareness is knowing when you're sitting at the throne of ignorance." --Leo G.

  • Ganathar.4956Ganathar.4956 Member ✭✭✭

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

    @Ganathar.4956 said:

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:
    You know, I remember when weaver first came out, it was doing nearly 50k DPS.

    Ele isn't in the best spot currently, but I can't pretend that the class has always been doomed to failure and obscurity.

    You shouldn't have to pretend because the past doesn't justify the present state of the profession. If that was the case then guardian should have been nerfed into obscurity forevermore in WvW, because it has defined the meta since day 1. Every profession has been broken at something at some point, but that's no excuse for destroying the class and then taking years to bring it back up again.

    You guys are lamenting that Ele has always been some underpowered and neglected profession. It wasn't. Hell, in PVE it isn't that bad even now. 35k DPS is nothing to scoff at, and it isn't that hard to play. I don't do PVP much, but from what I've seen on the thief forum, apparently weavers are this super-invulnerable monstrosity with unlimited sustain and explosive damage.

    The op doesn't really say that as far as I can tell. It's mostly talking about the state of ele in the last year or so. It's not bad in PvE but it is definitely outclassed. It is the squishiest class with terrible CC and no support, and yet it doesn't have top damage either. Thieves have seen endless nerfs recently, so it's not surprising if they are struggling. But having lots of sustain and damage at the same time is literally impossible for ele, so idk what those thieves are saying. Both damage and sustain on ele are incredibly stat and trait dependent. There is no way to have both, unlike classes like spellbreaker and holosmith.

    It is pretty commonly accepted that ele has had no meta builds in PvP since PoF launched. It has only recently got a somewhat decent build that doesn't rely on exclusively tanking damage. However this fire weaver build is a pretty gimmick build because it relies on burning and any decent player has the minimal amount of cleansing required to avoid the burst.

  • Jski.6180Jski.6180 Member ✭✭✭✭

    There many examples where it seems anet did not think things though with nerf and buff with ele in mind.

    Stab update back in the day is a good example of this ele use to only give a 2 sec stab that would stop all hard cc but now its a 2 sec stab that only stops 1 hard cc its a joke and show anet did not even remotely have ele in mind at all during it. Now that there is so much projectile hate in the game skills that are very weak dmg effects such as water 1 staff and earth 1 staff that where used for the added effects now are often comply negated though out a full fight. The ideal of passive condi pressure is now more harmful then good as the ele main condi types are flip into very powerful boons for the other team and ele with out any real counter to boons left comply out in the cold for being helpful to the other team more then there own.

    Ele is a profoundly out dated class and is best used for a "hard" mood in any type of game with out any reward for doing it.

    See ELE forms and you will get my views.

  • Blood Red Arachnid.2493Blood Red Arachnid.2493 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 2, 2019

    @Ganathar.4956 said:

    The op doesn't really say that as far as I can tell. It's mostly talking about the state of ele in the last year or so. It's not bad in PvE but it is definitely outclassed. It is the squishiest class with terrible CC and no support, and yet it doesn't have top damage either. Thieves have seen endless nerfs recently, so it's not surprising if they are struggling. But having lots of sustain and damage at the same time is literally impossible for ele, so idk what those thieves are saying. Both damage and sustain on ele are incredibly stat and trait dependent. There is no way to have both, unlike classes like spellbreaker and holosmith.

    It is pretty commonly accepted that ele has had no meta builds in PvP since PoF launched. It has only recently got a somewhat decent build that doesn't rely on exclusively tanking damage. However this fire weaver build is a pretty gimmick build because it relies on burning and any decent player has the minimal amount of cleansing required to avoid the burst.

    Now normally I don't provide an example, specifically to avoid calling out people, because when I do it just leads to hostility. But, since nobody believes me, I'll have to get into it.

    1: Title. "Every time I..." means he's done it more than once. Unless the OP has only played in the specific times where Ele wasn't good, he's making a deliberate statement here.

    2:

    @Lonami.2987 said:
    Elementalist has always been a mess. Back in the day, everyone else had other problems, so we kinda went unnoticed. Then the nerfs started piling up more and more, and while the others improved, we sank deeper and deeper.

    Always? So when it was the bunker meta, or part of GWEN in WvW, or when it was top tier DPS in PVE for both HoT and PoF? Those don't count for some reason. People "deny it" because it plainly isn't true. Yes, there are a few select skills that put ele in the meta. That's how every other class works, too.

    3:

    @Jski.6180 said:
    Worst class in game and has been for some time HoT was the real down fall the adding of the high armor mid hp 2 atument wepon swap ele (rev) was the real death of the class. Now its just a "zombly" class that gets updates that are comply distracted from the reality of the ele class and what other classes have.

    See, it has been my understanding that Elementalists have been in and out of the meta for awhile now. Fresh Air overload had to be nerfed a few times just to let other specs compete in PVE. In WvW the overloads were a life saver, because now the Ele had a stun break on command. Tempests were a good support class with their auras, water/earth overload, static field, and unsteady ground. All revs did was make it so eles didn't have to spam windborne speed and blast finishers in fire fields.

    4:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    Sadly it has always been like that for this class...where elite players winners of world tournaments , can go and state in the dev's face how bad the ele design is...you get some who claim otherwise , confident in their "skills" with the healbot build.

    It really hasn't always been like this. I remember when double ele comps were the meta for competitive PVP because of how good they were. This was before the change that limited class choices. Look, if you want the engineer perspective, Engi was "underpowered" for awhile because Grouch was epic with it, and they balanced around Grouch. I put "underpowered" into quotes, because it is all a matter of perspective. To epic level players, engi was fine. We've seen similar things happen with ele, too.


    Three makes a trend. I count four different people. I'm not going to get into the nitty gritty details of balance (though in PVE the sword weaver is definitely not lacking in CC). I have my own misgivings. It is also... not what I was talking about. Throwing a pity party where you rewrite history to exaggerate everything isn't going to accomplish anything. It'll just make the devs dismiss what you have to say outright.

    "Self awareness is knowing when you're sitting at the throne of ignorance." --Leo G.

  • Ganathar.4956Ganathar.4956 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 2, 2019

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

    @Ganathar.4956 said:

    The op doesn't really say that as far as I can tell. It's mostly talking about the state of ele in the last year or so. It's not bad in PvE but it is definitely outclassed. It is the squishiest class with terrible CC and no support, and yet it doesn't have top damage either. Thieves have seen endless nerfs recently, so it's not surprising if they are struggling. But having lots of sustain and damage at the same time is literally impossible for ele, so idk what those thieves are saying. Both damage and sustain on ele are incredibly stat and trait dependent. There is no way to have both, unlike classes like spellbreaker and holosmith.

    It is pretty commonly accepted that ele has had no meta builds in PvP since PoF launched. It has only recently got a somewhat decent build that doesn't rely on exclusively tanking damage. However this fire weaver build is a pretty gimmick build because it relies on burning and any decent player has the minimal amount of cleansing required to avoid the burst.

    Now normally I don't provide an example, specifically to avoid calling out people, because when I do it just leads to hostility. But, since nobody believes me, I'll have to get into it.

    1: Title. "Every time I..." means he's done it more than once. Unless the OP has only played in the specific times where Ele wasn't good, he's making a deliberate statement here.

    2:

    @Lonami.2987 said:
    Elementalist has always been a mess. Back in the day, everyone else had other problems, so we kinda went unnoticed. Then the nerfs started piling up more and more, and while the others improved, we sank deeper and deeper.

    Always? So when it was the bunker meta, or part of GWEN in WvW, or when it was top tier DPS in PVE for both HoT and PoF? Those don't count for some reason. People "deny it" because it plainly isn't true. Yes, there are a few select skills that put ele in the meta. That's how every other class works, too.

    3:

    @Jski.6180 said:
    Worst class in game and has been for some time HoT was the real down fall the adding of the high armor mid hp 2 atument wepon swap ele (rev) was the real death of the class. Now its just a "zombly" class that gets updates that are comply distracted from the reality of the ele class and what other classes have.

    See, it has been my understanding that Elementalists have been in and out of the meta for awhile now. Fresh Air overload had to be nerfed a few times just to let other specs compete in PVE. In WvW the overloads were a life saver, because now the Ele had a stun break on command. Tempests were a good support class with their auras, water/earth overload, static field, and unsteady ground. All revs did was make it so eles didn't have to spam windborne speed and blast finishers in fire fields.

    4:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    Sadly it has always been like that for this class...where elite players winners of world tournaments , can go and state in the dev's face how bad the ele design is...you get some who claim otherwise , confident in their "skills" with the healbot build.

    It really hasn't always been like this. I remember when double ele comps were the meta for competitive PVP because of how good they were. This was before the change that limited class choices. Look, if you want the engineer perspective, Engi was "underpowered" for awhile because Grouch was epic with it, and they balanced around Grouch. I put "underpowered" into quotes, because it is all a matter of perspective. To epic level players, engi was fine. We've seen similar things happen with ele, too.


    Three makes a trend. I count four different people. I'm not going to get into the nitty gritty details of balance (though in PVE the sword weaver is definitely not lacking in CC). I have my own misgivings. It is also... not what I was talking about. Throwing a pity party where you rewrite history to exaggerate everything isn't going to accomplish anything. It'll just make the devs dismiss what you have to say outright.

    I only mentioned the OP because that is who I was assuming that you were replying to since you didn't quote anyone. "every time I tried to come back to it" to me implies that the OP left the class at some point, and then every time he tried to come back to it since then it hasn't been good. It really does not strike me as a post that refers to anything regarding ele's state pre-PoF, but maybe that's just me. It is true that there is some over-reacting here in general, but Anet hasn't been doing anything substantially positive for the class since PoF released.

  • Arheundel.6451Arheundel.6451 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

    @Ganathar.4956 said:

    The op doesn't really say that as far as I can tell. It's mostly talking about the state of ele in the last year or so. It's not bad in PvE but it is definitely outclassed. It is the squishiest class with terrible CC and no support, and yet it doesn't have top damage either. Thieves have seen endless nerfs recently, so it's not surprising if they are struggling. But having lots of sustain and damage at the same time is literally impossible for ele, so idk what those thieves are saying. Both damage and sustain on ele are incredibly stat and trait dependent. There is no way to have both, unlike classes like spellbreaker and holosmith.

    It is pretty commonly accepted that ele has had no meta builds in PvP since PoF launched. It has only recently got a somewhat decent build that doesn't rely on exclusively tanking damage. However this fire weaver build is a pretty gimmick build because it relies on burning and any decent player has the minimal amount of cleansing required to avoid the burst.

    Now normally I don't provide an example, specifically to avoid calling out people, because when I do it just leads to hostility. But, since nobody believes me, I'll have to get into it.

    1: Title. "Every time I..." means he's done it more than once. Unless the OP has only played in the specific times where Ele wasn't good, he's making a deliberate statement here.

    2:

    @Lonami.2987 said:
    Elementalist has always been a mess. Back in the day, everyone else had other problems, so we kinda went unnoticed. Then the nerfs started piling up more and more, and while the others improved, we sank deeper and deeper.

    Always? So when it was the bunker meta, or part of GWEN in WvW, or when it was top tier DPS in PVE for both HoT and PoF? Those don't count for some reason. People "deny it" because it plainly isn't true. Yes, there are a few select skills that put ele in the meta. That's how every other class works, too.

    3:

    @Jski.6180 said:
    Worst class in game and has been for some time HoT was the real down fall the adding of the high armor mid hp 2 atument wepon swap ele (rev) was the real death of the class. Now its just a "zombly" class that gets updates that are comply distracted from the reality of the ele class and what other classes have.

    See, it has been my understanding that Elementalists have been in and out of the meta for awhile now. Fresh Air overload had to be nerfed a few times just to let other specs compete in PVE. In WvW the overloads were a life saver, because now the Ele had a stun break on command. Tempests were a good support class with their auras, water/earth overload, static field, and unsteady ground. All revs did was make it so eles didn't have to spam windborne speed and blast finishers in fire fields.

    4:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    Sadly it has always been like that for this class...where elite players winners of world tournaments , can go and state in the dev's face how bad the ele design is...you get some who claim otherwise , confident in their "skills" with the healbot build.

    It really hasn't always been like this. I remember when double ele comps were the meta for competitive PVP because of how good they were. This was before the change that limited class choices. Look, if you want the engineer perspective, Engi was "underpowered" for awhile because Grouch was epic with it, and they balanced around Grouch. I put "underpowered" into quotes, because it is all a matter of perspective. To epic level players, engi was fine. We've seen similar things happen with ele, too.


    Three makes a trend. I count four different people. I'm not going to get into the nitty gritty details of balance (though in PVE the sword weaver is definitely not lacking in CC). I have my own misgivings. It is also... not what I was talking about. Throwing a pity party where you rewrite history to exaggerate everything isn't going to accomplish anything. It'll just make the devs dismiss what you have to say outright.

    I fail to remember when exactly engi was underpowered...before HoT we had cele rifle...before that we had grenade burst...before that it was decapping turret who everybody abused and before that it was that HG insta burst from stealth ( before got nerfed).

    I do remember a "small dark period" for engi years ago..but that was a great exageration ofc, your class always had the tools to excel in several field be it burst or be tank or support...not the first choice maybe but not that far beyond , your class always managed to land on its feet regardless of the nerfs received and what about ele?

    As @Jski.6180 correctly stated the class is a design mess, he is not trying to be a drama queen like forum goers like to assume...he's telling the hard truth ; all it took for ele to be deleted from pvp literally were a couple of nerfs to Cleansing water and Signet of restoration...the class was gone..so gone that devs got forced to backtrack their nerfs, it was 2014 and this has never been done with any other profession.

    -A wise man once said- "Fight cheese with cheese or be cheesed in return, mind not those who will accuse you of being a cheese as they like cheese themselves"

  • Jski.6180Jski.6180 Member ✭✭✭✭

    What rev did to ele was more then just dmg its now gives out 10 target boons that tempest and realy core ele was know for. It was a massive hit to the class and its still there with out any real fix or reason.

    See ELE forms and you will get my views.

  • Aigleborgne.2981Aigleborgne.2981 Member ✭✭✭

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:
    You guys are lamenting that Ele has always been some underpowered and neglected profession. It wasn't. Hell, in PVE it isn't that bad even now. 35k DPS is nothing to scoff at, and it isn't that hard to play. I don't do PVP much, but from what I've seen on the thief forum, apparently weavers are this super-invulnerable monstrosity with unlimited sustain and explosive damage.

    There is group PVE and solo PVE. The former gives you all necessary buffs and a tank so you can mindlessly focus on dps.
    While it's a lot more difficult on the later! On full dps build, you can be downed in no time while not putting out more dps than any other profession that will have solid built-in degenses with that same dps build.
    But yeah, it's not so bad in pve!

  • @Aigleborgne.2981 said:

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:
    You guys are lamenting that Ele has always been some underpowered and neglected profession. It wasn't. Hell, in PVE it isn't that bad even now. 35k DPS is nothing to scoff at, and it isn't that hard to play. I don't do PVP much, but from what I've seen on the thief forum, apparently weavers are this super-invulnerable monstrosity with unlimited sustain and explosive damage.

    There is group PVE and solo PVE. The former gives you all necessary buffs and a tank so you can mindlessly focus on dps.
    While it's a lot more difficult on the later! On full dps build, you can be downed in no time while not putting out more dps than any other profession that will have solid built-in degenses with that same dps build.
    But yeah, it's not so bad in pve!

    I spend most of my time in Solo PVE. The weaver can melt most things before they can do a significant amount of damage, even in groups. In the opening combo, most enemies don't live longer than Quantum Strike -> Pyro Vortex, and if they do then they're dead after Flame Uprising. I have no problems wandering around the overworld in every map, killing everything short of a champion with ease, even while outnumbered. Even then, I can solo many champions on a full glass sword/dagger weaver.

    It's not that bad at all.

    "Self awareness is knowing when you're sitting at the throne of ignorance." --Leo G.

  • Aigleborgne.2981Aigleborgne.2981 Member ✭✭✭

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

    @Aigleborgne.2981 said:

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:
    You guys are lamenting that Ele has always been some underpowered and neglected profession. It wasn't. Hell, in PVE it isn't that bad even now. 35k DPS is nothing to scoff at, and it isn't that hard to play. I don't do PVP much, but from what I've seen on the thief forum, apparently weavers are this super-invulnerable monstrosity with unlimited sustain and explosive damage.

    There is group PVE and solo PVE. The former gives you all necessary buffs and a tank so you can mindlessly focus on dps.
    While it's a lot more difficult on the later! On full dps build, you can be downed in no time while not putting out more dps than any other profession that will have solid built-in degenses with that same dps build.
    But yeah, it's not so bad in pve!

    I spend most of my time in Solo PVE. The weaver can melt most things before they can do a significant amount of damage, even in groups. In the opening combo, most enemies don't live longer than Quantum Strike -> Pyro Vortex, and if they do then they're dead after Flame Uprising. I have no problems wandering around the overworld in every map, killing everything short of a champion with ease, even while outnumbered. Even then, I can solo many champions on a full glass sword/dagger weaver.

    It's not that bad at all.

    Here you talk about weaver. What about core ele or full dps tempest?

  • steki.1478steki.1478 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Aigleborgne.2981 said:

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

    @Aigleborgne.2981 said:

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:
    You guys are lamenting that Ele has always been some underpowered and neglected profession. It wasn't. Hell, in PVE it isn't that bad even now. 35k DPS is nothing to scoff at, and it isn't that hard to play. I don't do PVP much, but from what I've seen on the thief forum, apparently weavers are this super-invulnerable monstrosity with unlimited sustain and explosive damage.

    There is group PVE and solo PVE. The former gives you all necessary buffs and a tank so you can mindlessly focus on dps.
    While it's a lot more difficult on the later! On full dps build, you can be downed in no time while not putting out more dps than any other profession that will have solid built-in degenses with that same dps build.
    But yeah, it's not so bad in pve!

    I spend most of my time in Solo PVE. The weaver can melt most things before they can do a significant amount of damage, even in groups. In the opening combo, most enemies don't live longer than Quantum Strike -> Pyro Vortex, and if they do then they're dead after Flame Uprising. I have no problems wandering around the overworld in every map, killing everything short of a champion with ease, even while outnumbered. Even then, I can solo many champions on a full glass sword/dagger weaver.

    It's not that bad at all.

    Here you talk about weaver. What about core ele or full dps tempest?

    S/w (or d/w) tempest is even easier than weaver because it has better range, doesnt have to slot in cleanses/stun breaks, has access to aoe blinds so no defensive utilities are needed and has quite strong burst as well.

    Core ele just has less damage due to lack of proper weapon/utility skills. Everything else is practically the same with exception that staff feels 10 times more boring without elite specs.

    Deso's favorite FROG
    Master of afk and kiting
    The God of Pips and Gud Deeps
    Froggo himself

  • LazySummer.2568LazySummer.2568 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 4, 2019

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

    @Aigleborgne.2981 said:

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:
    You guys are lamenting that Ele has always been some underpowered and neglected profession. It wasn't. Hell, in PVE it isn't that bad even now. 35k DPS is nothing to scoff at, and it isn't that hard to play. I don't do PVP much, but from what I've seen on the thief forum, apparently weavers are this super-invulnerable monstrosity with unlimited sustain and explosive damage.

    There is group PVE and solo PVE. The former gives you all necessary buffs and a tank so you can mindlessly focus on dps.
    While it's a lot more difficult on the later! On full dps build, you can be downed in no time while not putting out more dps than any other profession that will have solid built-in degenses with that same dps build.
    But yeah, it's not so bad in pve!

    I spend most of my time in Solo PVE. The weaver can melt most things before they can do a significant amount of damage, even in groups. In the opening combo, most enemies don't live longer than Quantum Strike -> Pyro Vortex, and if they do then they're dead after Flame Uprising. I have no problems wandering around the overworld in every map, killing everything short of a champion with ease, even while outnumbered. Even then, I can solo many champions on a full glass sword/dagger weaver.

    It's not that bad at all.

    it's pretty bad when i can, for example, get on mesmer and do similiar amounts of dmg and give myself 25 stacks of might+fury+quickness+alacrity instantly solo and still have plenty of defensive skills. Similar things can be achieved on fb/rev/reaper/holo/deadeye/basically any other class that can all instant 25 might+fury+quickness minimum, and it's not like they cant burst as well weavers. Plus, none of them give up all their defense for it. I'm talking about full berserk/vipers gear on these too

  • @LazySummer.2568 said:
    it's pretty bad when i can, for example, get on mesmer and do similiar amounts of dmg and give myself 25 stacks of might+fury+quickness+alacrity instantly solo and still have plenty of defensive skills. Similar things can be achieved on fb/rev/reaper/holo/deadeye/basically any other class that can all instant 25 might+fury+quickness minimum, and it's not like they cant burst as well weavers. Plus, none of them give up all their defense for it. I'm talking about full berserk/vipers gear on these too

    No they don't. The only class that gives all of those boons is the chronomancer, which admittedly is an OP overworld build. Everything else is either flat out wrong, or there's a major detail you're neglecting to bring up. But that's all an aside: you're overselling the value of these boons. The elementalist does just fine without them. Even better with them, but just fine without them.

    "Self awareness is knowing when you're sitting at the throne of ignorance." --Leo G.

  • Hannelore.8153Hannelore.8153 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 5, 2019

    My Ele is one of, if not my strongest, characters. Too many people try to play Ele in a specific role, like a DPS, and they're not made for that. They're specifically made to be mediocre to moderate at everything, so that they're useful in every situation.

    This is how the mage class has always been in video games, and Ele is the only real mage-alike in GW2.

    The only thing I think that really suffers on the class is the support role in comparison to Chrono, Druid, Firebrand and Revenant. One could even argue that a base Guardian can exceed them at support, although this is mostly in the area of buffing rather than heals.

    I feel like their DPS and defense are okay for risk versus reward, but their support isn't.

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  • LazySummer.2568LazySummer.2568 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 5, 2019

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

    @LazySummer.2568 said:
    it's pretty bad when i can, for example, get on mesmer and do similiar amounts of dmg and give myself 25 stacks of might+fury+quickness+alacrity instantly solo and still have plenty of defensive skills. Similar things can be achieved on fb/rev/reaper/holo/deadeye/basically any other class that can all instant 25 might+fury+quickness minimum, and it's not like they cant burst as well weavers. Plus, none of them give up all their defense for it. I'm talking about full berserk/vipers gear on these too

    No they don't. The only class that gives all of those boons is the chronomancer, which admittedly is an OP overworld build. Everything else is either flat out wrong, or there's a major detail you're neglecting to bring up. But that's all an aside: you're overselling the value of these boons. The elementalist does just fine without them. Even better with them, but just fine without them.

    Yes they do. I'm not talking about permanent boon up time for whole grouop in raids. I'm talking about enough up time in the open world pve you're referring to where ~10s of 25 might+fury & ~5s of quickness is enough.

    here are some examples:

    • warrior -> might, fury from traits and fgj, quickness from berserk, axe, or utils/traits
    • guardian -> might, fury, quickness from being fb
    • rev -> everything from either renegade + shiro or no alacrity from herald + shiro
    • ranger -> might, fury from axe / warhorn / traits or soulbeast stances. quickness from traits, dagger, or utils such as Quickening Zephyr. Literally every single boon from plasma siamoth
    • engi -> might from holo, fury + quickness from traits, sword or utils such as elixir U & kinetic battery
    • thief -> might, fury from traits. More might/fury from deadeye rifle & Maleficent Seven, quickness from BQBK
    • necro -> might, fury from BiP and traits, quickness from reaper
    • mesmer -> everything from being chrono or no alacrity from not being chrono

    everyone else can do just fine without them too but ele is the only one that doesn't have all of them.

    and before you say but that's not raid build! I doubt you're doing better dps without boons on weaver compared to builds that can give themselves offensive boons. Sure you can switch it around too such as taking more utils to blast your fire fields for might/fury & arcane for more might but you obviously dont have quickness and you also stack might slower because you have to blast fields

    and if you want to talk raid builds, the boon dps tempest is just flat out worse than fb and renegade because not only does it not provide better boons like quickness, alacrity and stability, it cant even stack its might & fury efficiently enough thanks to 2012 field blasting mechanics that literally no other classes are required do to get their boons.

  • LazySummer.2568LazySummer.2568 Member ✭✭✭

    @Hannelore.8153 said:
    My Ele is one of, if not my strongest, characters. Too many people try to play Ele in a specific role, like a DPS, and they're not made for that. They're specifically made to be mediocre to moderate at everything, so that they're useful in every situation.

    This is how the mage class has always been in video games, and Ele is the only real mage-alike in GW2.

    The only thing I think that really suffers on the class is the support role in comparison to Chrono, Druid, Firebrand and Revenant. One could even argue that a base Guardian can exceed them at support, although this is mostly in the area of buffing rather than heals.

    I feel like their DPS and defense are okay for risk versus reward, but their support isn't.

    you're assuming other classes are not made to be good at everything in every situation which is just false. Guardian, Revenant, Engineer, Mesmer, and Ranger are clear examples of classes where they can be good at everything (and does them all better than ele except dps, which they do equal or comparable to).

  • Aigleborgne.2981Aigleborgne.2981 Member ✭✭✭

    @Hannelore.8153 said:
    My Ele is one of, if not my strongest, characters. Too many people try to play Ele in a specific role, like a DPS, and they're not made for that. They're specifically made to be mediocre to moderate at everything, so that they're useful in every situation.

    This is how the mage class has always been in video games, and Ele is the only real mage-alike in GW2.

    The only thing I think that really suffers on the class is the support role in comparison to Chrono, Druid, Firebrand and Revenant. One could even argue that a base Guardian can exceed them at support, although this is mostly in the area of buffing rather than heals.

    I feel like their DPS and defense are okay for risk versus reward, but their support isn't.

    Care to elaborate? To be moderate at everything, you need something like celestial stats. If so, I could agree that it fits the 4 elements but many will argue it will do bad dps while barely improve your sustain since you will take longer to kill.

  • @LazySummer.2568 said:

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

    @LazySummer.2568 said:
    it's pretty bad when i can, for example, get on mesmer and do similiar amounts of dmg and give myself 25 stacks of might+fury+quickness+alacrity instantly solo and still have plenty of defensive skills. Similar things can be achieved on fb/rev/reaper/holo/deadeye/basically any other class that can all instant 25 might+fury+quickness minimum, and it's not like they cant burst as well weavers. Plus, none of them give up all their defense for it. I'm talking about full berserk/vipers gear on these too

    No they don't. The only class that gives all of those boons is the chronomancer, which admittedly is an OP overworld build. Everything else is either flat out wrong, or there's a major detail you're neglecting to bring up. But that's all an aside: you're overselling the value of these boons. The elementalist does just fine without them. Even better with them, but just fine without them.

    Yes they do. I'm not talking about permanent boon up time for whole grouop in raids. I'm talking about enough up time in the open world pve you're referring to where ~10s of 25 might+fury & ~5s of quickness is enough.

    here are some examples:

    • warrior -> might, fury from traits and fgj, quickness from berserk, axe, or utils/traits
    • guardian -> might, fury, quickness from being fb
    • rev -> everything from either renegade + shiro or no alacrity from herald + shiro
    • ranger -> might, fury from axe / warhorn / traits or soulbeast stances. quickness from traits, dagger, or utils such as Quickening Zephyr. Literally every single boon from plasma siamoth
    • engi -> might from holo, fury + quickness from traits, sword or utils such as elixir U & kinetic battery
    • thief -> might, fury from traits. More might/fury from deadeye rifle & Maleficent Seven, quickness from BQBK
    • necro -> might, fury from BiP and traits, quickness from reaper
    • mesmer -> everything from being chrono or no alacrity from not being chrono

    everyone else can do just fine without them too but ele is the only one that doesn't have all of them.

    and before you say but that's not raid build! I doubt you're doing better dps without boons on weaver compared to builds that can give themselves offensive boons. Sure you can switch it around too such as taking more utils to blast your fire fields for might/fury & arcane for more might but you obviously dont have quickness and you also stack might slower because you have to blast fields

    and if you want to talk raid builds, the boon dps tempest is just flat out worse than fb and renegade because not only does it not provide better boons like quickness, alacrity and stability, it cant even stack its might & fury efficiently enough thanks to 2012 field blasting mechanics that literally no other classes are required do to get their boons.

    It's amazing how wrong you are many of those. I can tell you don't play most of those classes, because you're just throwing out whatever the wiki spits at you with no regard to opportunity cost or practical builds. If you define it as "any amount of boons up for any amount of time regardless of what you can actually build", then the weaver fits in that category. Persisting Flames, Pyromancer's Puissance, and Raging Storm all exist, as does the Arcane Line and blast finishers. That's plenty of fury and might. Who cares for any inconvenience? Everything meets the standard when you have no standards.

    To answer your question: Yes. The weaver definitely performs as good as every other class in the overworld. Even without stacking that much might or quickness. Because, as it turns out, solo performance depends on far more than whether or not that running man icon lights up in the build preview.

    "Self awareness is knowing when you're sitting at the throne of ignorance." --Leo G.

  • @Aigleborgne.2981 said:

    @Hannelore.8153 said:
    My Ele is one of, if not my strongest, characters. Too many people try to play Ele in a specific role, like a DPS, and they're not made for that. They're specifically made to be mediocre to moderate at everything, so that they're useful in every situation.

    This is how the mage class has always been in video games, and Ele is the only real mage-alike in GW2.

    The only thing I think that really suffers on the class is the support role in comparison to Chrono, Druid, Firebrand and Revenant. One could even argue that a base Guardian can exceed them at support, although this is mostly in the area of buffing rather than heals.

    I feel like their DPS and defense are okay for risk versus reward, but their support isn't.

    Care to elaborate? To be moderate at everything, you need something like celestial stats. If so, I could agree that it fits the 4 elements but many will argue it will do bad dps while barely improve your sustain since you will take longer to kill.

    I can explain. Cellofrag's WvW Build uses Marshall Stats, which are Power, Precision, Healing, and Condition Damage. For PvP this works... surprisingly well. The weaver especially has traits that synergize with healing, condition damage, and power all at the same time. Overall the build looks glass, but all of the sustain and barrier it gives makes it much harder to kill than you'd expect.

    This is... the general trend for Elementalists. Every other class in the game has to make a series of choices in their builds: To go condi or to go power. To have heals, or to go full damage. To run defense or mobility. Elementalists don't. They inflict both power and condition damage at the same time, they have defensive skills on command, and they can pop in water for healing and cleanses. In PVE, the hybrid nature of the ele isn't put to use. In PVP it is a whole different story. Personally I have wondered how well a full Griever or Marshall Ele will do in the benchmarks, since the devs remarked that they expected the Weaver to be the class that wears Griever. But, I have neither the skill nor the means to test it.

    As much as I am embroiled in a nitpicky and futile debate about boon application, the truth is that the Ele does whatever it is built for. The restriction isn't on the availability of skills, but on the availability of raw stats.

    "Self awareness is knowing when you're sitting at the throne of ignorance." --Leo G.

  • LazySummer.2568LazySummer.2568 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 6, 2019

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

    @LazySummer.2568 said:

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

    @LazySummer.2568 said:
    it's pretty bad when i can, for example, get on mesmer and do similiar amounts of dmg and give myself 25 stacks of might+fury+quickness+alacrity instantly solo and still have plenty of defensive skills. Similar things can be achieved on fb/rev/reaper/holo/deadeye/basically any other class that can all instant 25 might+fury+quickness minimum, and it's not like they cant burst as well weavers. Plus, none of them give up all their defense for it. I'm talking about full berserk/vipers gear on these too

    No they don't. The only class that gives all of those boons is the chronomancer, which admittedly is an OP overworld build. Everything else is either flat out wrong, or there's a major detail you're neglecting to bring up. But that's all an aside: you're overselling the value of these boons. The elementalist does just fine without them. Even better with them, but just fine without them.

    Yes they do. I'm not talking about permanent boon up time for whole grouop in raids. I'm talking about enough up time in the open world pve you're referring to where ~10s of 25 might+fury & ~5s of quickness is enough.

    here are some examples:

    • warrior -> might, fury from traits and fgj, quickness from berserk, axe, or utils/traits
    • guardian -> might, fury, quickness from being fb
    • rev -> everything from either renegade + shiro or no alacrity from herald + shiro
    • ranger -> might, fury from axe / warhorn / traits or soulbeast stances. quickness from traits, dagger, or utils such as Quickening Zephyr. Literally every single boon from plasma siamoth
    • engi -> might from holo, fury + quickness from traits, sword or utils such as elixir U & kinetic battery
    • thief -> might, fury from traits. More might/fury from deadeye rifle & Maleficent Seven, quickness from BQBK
    • necro -> might, fury from BiP and traits, quickness from reaper
    • mesmer -> everything from being chrono or no alacrity from not being chrono

    everyone else can do just fine without them too but ele is the only one that doesn't have all of them.

    and before you say but that's not raid build! I doubt you're doing better dps without boons on weaver compared to builds that can give themselves offensive boons. Sure you can switch it around too such as taking more utils to blast your fire fields for might/fury & arcane for more might but you obviously dont have quickness and you also stack might slower because you have to blast fields

    and if you want to talk raid builds, the boon dps tempest is just flat out worse than fb and renegade because not only does it not provide better boons like quickness, alacrity and stability, it cant even stack its might & fury efficiently enough thanks to 2012 field blasting mechanics that literally no other classes are required do to get their boons.

    It's amazing how wrong you are many of those. I can tell you don't play most of those classes, because you're just throwing out whatever the wiki spits at you with no regard to opportunity cost or practical builds. If you define it as "any amount of boons up for any amount of time regardless of what you can actually build", then the weaver fits in that category. Persisting Flames, Pyromancer's Puissance, and Raging Storm all exist, as does the Arcane Line and blast finishers. That's plenty of fury and might. Who cares for any inconvenience? Everything meets the standard when you have no standards.

    To answer your question: Yes. The weaver definitely performs as good as every other class in the overworld. Even without stacking that much might or quickness. Because, as it turns out, solo performance depends on far more than whether or not that running man icon lights up in the build preview.

    I like how you just accuse me of havent played the classes and repeatedly say i'm wrong you're right instead of up with reasons as to why you're right. It's obviously your opinion that eles are good on their own and my opinion that it's not and my premise is really clear -- when you compare it to every other classes it's subpar -- you have to put in more effort to achieve the same results as other classes (because of reasons such as less boons + more button presses + higher skill cast times). You have yet to state reasonings to support your argument other than "i can play it just fine so you must be wrong!"

    For the record, ele is my main in all 3 game modes including soloing HoT HPs, champ bounties and story instances with staff on it because it's my favorite weapon. Can i do them? sure, but it's way easier for me to do them on other classes. I've also played every single class in raids/fractals for a long time and most classes in plat pvp because playing the same classes over and over honestly gets boring really quick.

    I also said might+fury+quickness, not just any random boons which you seem to have missed.

    I'm done here. Have a nice day.

  • Jski.6180Jski.6180 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

    @Aigleborgne.2981 said:

    @Hannelore.8153 said:
    My Ele is one of, if not my strongest, characters. Too many people try to play Ele in a specific role, like a DPS, and they're not made for that. They're specifically made to be mediocre to moderate at everything, so that they're useful in every situation.

    This is how the mage class has always been in video games, and Ele is the only real mage-alike in GW2.

    The only thing I think that really suffers on the class is the support role in comparison to Chrono, Druid, Firebrand and Revenant. One could even argue that a base Guardian can exceed them at support, although this is mostly in the area of buffing rather than heals.

    I feel like their DPS and defense are okay for risk versus reward, but their support isn't.

    Care to elaborate? To be moderate at everything, you need something like celestial stats. If so, I could agree that it fits the 4 elements but many will argue it will do bad dps while barely improve your sustain since you will take longer to kill.

    I can explain. Cellofrag's WvW Build uses Marshall Stats, which are Power, Precision, Healing, and Condition Damage. For PvP this works... surprisingly well. The weaver especially has traits that synergize with healing, condition damage, and power all at the same time. Overall the build looks glass, but all of the sustain and barrier it gives makes it much harder to kill than you'd expect.

    This is... the general trend for Elementalists. Every other class in the game has to make a series of choices in their builds: To go condi or to go power. To have heals, or to go full damage. To run defense or mobility. Elementalists don't. They inflict both power and condition damage at the same time, they have defensive skills on command, and they can pop in water for healing and cleanses. In PVE, the hybrid nature of the ele isn't put to use. In PVP it is a whole different story. Personally I have wondered how well a full Griever or Marshall Ele will do in the benchmarks, since the devs remarked that they expected the Weaver to be the class that wears Griever. But, I have neither the skill nor the means to test it.

    As much as I am embroiled in a nitpicky and futile debate about boon application, the truth is that the Ele does whatever it is built for. The restriction isn't on the availability of skills, but on the availability of raw stats.

    Cellofrag wvw builds are very much skill base builds if you dont dodge at the right time your dead and even landing dmg at the wrong time your also dead.

    The trend for ele is it must build for every thing nothing is given to the ele classes. Unlike most other classes whom do get massive stat boost from just being that class or get a glut of condi dmg types or even boon types. If you want to go in melee you must build high def / hp OR high evasion but out side of that you cant go in melee with the ele class. For dmg builds you must build for all in power dmg giving up every bit of def in the game OR a hybred build that has some build in tankling abitly as ele cant go condi only it just simply dose not have enofe condi types or back up effects to complement it.

    Ele is still balanced with 2012 in mind there so much lacking form all of the elite spec and core kits that the moment it started to be balanced like a normal up to date class (weaver sword) it often dose not even play like an ele class at all and will get nerfed hard as its out preforming the other builds of ele to a high amount (the dagger update was a joke for dmg buff).

    See ELE forms and you will get my views.

  • @Jski.6180 said:

    Cellofrag wvw builds are very much skill base builds if you dont dodge at the right time your dead and even landing dmg at the wrong time your also dead.

    The trend for ele is it must build for every thing nothing is given to the ele classes. Unlike most other classes whom do get massive stat boost from just being that class or get a glut of condi dmg types or even boon types. If you want to go in melee you must build high def / hp OR high evasion but out side of that you cant go in melee with the ele class. For dmg builds you must build for all in power dmg giving up every bit of def in the game OR a hybred build that has some build in tankling abitly as ele cant go condi only it just simply dose not have enofe condi types or back up effects to complement it.

    Ele is still balanced with 2012 in mind there so much lacking form all of the elite spec and core kits that the moment it started to be balanced like a normal up to date class (weaver sword) it often dose not even play like an ele class at all and will get nerfed hard as its out preforming the other builds of ele to a high amount (the dagger update was a joke for dmg buff).

    I'm sorry, but why are you responding to me with this post? It seems completely unrelated to what I was talking about. I mean, hell, anybody can get clobbered in WvW. I run a berserker/marauder mix herald in WvW, and even with damage reduction food/traits I still get insta-gibbed by another glass cannon.

    "Self awareness is knowing when you're sitting at the throne of ignorance." --Leo G.

  • Jski.6180Jski.6180 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 6, 2019

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    Cellofrag wvw builds are very much skill base builds if you dont dodge at the right time your dead and even landing dmg at the wrong time your also dead.

    The trend for ele is it must build for every thing nothing is given to the ele classes. Unlike most other classes whom do get massive stat boost from just being that class or get a glut of condi dmg types or even boon types. If you want to go in melee you must build high def / hp OR high evasion but out side of that you cant go in melee with the ele class. For dmg builds you must build for all in power dmg giving up every bit of def in the game OR a hybred build that has some build in tankling abitly as ele cant go condi only it just simply dose not have enofe condi types or back up effects to complement it.

    Ele is still balanced with 2012 in mind there so much lacking form all of the elite spec and core kits that the moment it started to be balanced like a normal up to date class (weaver sword) it often dose not even play like an ele class at all and will get nerfed hard as its out preforming the other builds of ele to a high amount (the dagger update was a joke for dmg buff).

    I'm sorry, but why are you responding to me with this post? It seems completely unrelated to what I was talking about. I mean, hell, anybody can get clobbered in WvW. I run a berserker/marauder mix herald in WvW, and even with damage reduction food/traits I still get insta-gibbed by another glass cannon.

    As a sword weaver? My point is cellofrag is a realty good player and its that alone that lets him play the class the way he dose. Its just not a real way of looking at the ele class.

    Your views on the ele class is comply distorted as your making a lot of the class ability to do things on its own with out thinking that the balancing of this game is base off of 5 player pts and that should be the mind set of all points of the game when it comes to balancing of the ele class. This is not a solo game the game is not balanced arone solo game play if a class is good at being solo its just a coincidence and not plan out and is in no way an excuse for losing out as much as the ele class has.

    See ELE forms and you will get my views.

  • otto.5684otto.5684 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Hannelore.8153 said:
    My Ele is one of, if not my strongest, characters. Too many people try to play Ele in a specific role, like a DPS, and they're not made for that. They're specifically made to be mediocre to moderate at everything, so that they're useful in every situation.

    This is how the mage class has always been in video games, and Ele is the only real mage-alike in GW2.

    The only thing I think that really suffers on the class is the support role in comparison to Chrono, Druid, Firebrand and Revenant. One could even argue that a base Guardian can exceed them at support, although this is mostly in the area of buffing rather than heals.

    I feel like their DPS and defense are okay for risk versus reward, but their support isn't.

    FB, PvE, full condi . I can dump fury, aegis, stability, boat load of CC, protection, reg, quickness, might and good AOE healing. All that while maintaining very high damage, high sustainability and highest burst among all condi builds (and probably exceeds some power ones as well). 20-25 burning stacks in 3-4 secs are real. I can do most of this with very limited sacrifice (if any) to damage effectiveness.

    Weaver has good damage, but zero utility and bad sustain. Tempest has okay sustainability but meh damage. Ele condi builds are pretty weak.

    Sure, FB is an extreme example. But most classes do much more than just dump damage and has sustain that requires little to no drop in damage. Also, ele has meh burst. Let’s face it, devs still have not adjusted from ele from having 40-50k so they could suck at everything else.

    Do not get me started on sPvP 🙄

  • Blood Red Arachnid.2493Blood Red Arachnid.2493 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 6, 2019

    @Jski.6180 said:
    As a sword weaver? My point is cellofrag is a realty good player and its that alone that lets him play the class the way he dose. Its just not a real way of looking at the ele class.

    Your views on the ele class is comply distorted as your making a lot of the class ability to do things on its own with out thinking that the balancing of this game is base off of 5 player pts and that should be the mind set of all points of the game when it comes to balancing of the ele class. This is not a solo game the game is not balanced arone solo game play if a class is good at being solo its just a coincidence and not plan out and is in no way an excuse for losing out as much as the ele class has.

    Then git gud?

    You're mistaken on my views. That whole argument with LazySummer is just an aside. He decided to take issue with an extremely obtuse and specific point in the game (solo performance) when I brought up that, in a group, Weaver does good damage. Likewise, I brought up cellofrag's video to explain how it is that Eles can do a little bit of everything without being incredibly feeble at it.

    I heard the term "Well what about-ism" used earlier today. It fits perfectly with what is going on in this thread. "Well, what about in a big group?" "Well, what about solo?' "Well, what about in a smaller group?" "Well, what about another class?" "Well, what about quickness?" "Well, what about different weapons?" "Well, what about different specializations?" This is the mark of somebody who is wholly biased and unreasonable. You guys aren't approaching Ele balance academically. You're just piling on me because I brought up that your historical revisionism has no basis in fact. The irony is that we've gone almost full circle, from group to solo to group again. You don't realize it because you haven't bothered to see the flow of the conversation. You just jump on whatever I say and try to drag me into any number of infinite tangents.

    You know what else you guys don't realize? This:

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:
    I'm not going to get into the nitty gritty details of balance (though in PVE the sword weaver is definitely not lacking in CC). I have my own misgivings. It is also... not what I was talking about. Throwing a pity party where you rewrite history to exaggerate everything isn't going to accomplish anything. It'll just make the devs dismiss what you have to say outright.

    .

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:
    Ele isn't in the best spot currently, but I can't pretend that the class has always been doomed to failure and obscurity.

    Why, hello Me From Earlier In This Thread! My, it seems you've been completely ignored, haven't you? It looks like everyone exploits your brevity to get ticked off. It's O.K. though, because the silver lining of this is watching everybody publicly making fools of themselves.

    "Self awareness is knowing when you're sitting at the throne of ignorance." --Leo G.

  • Strider.7849Strider.7849 Member ✭✭

    Ele is not as bad as people are making it out to be. It seems this comes from players who either don't understand the class (possibly just bad) or are looking to make it imbalanced. To be honest, I think it's in a very good spot at the moment. Lots of viable playstyles that offer unique and different roles for different environments. All of their weapon sets are useful for different things.

    For those crying for enormous buffs etc, you will only get it temporarily buffed and then overnerfed. This is a fact and the only thing you will achieve if your whining reaches a dev who decides it does need to be buffed more. Ele will be in a bad position then. Right now it's in a pretty good spot and it just needs some of the current meta classes to get slight shaves in order to see more competitive presence. I'm tired of yo-yo balancing, buff one, kill another.. then kill the one you buffed and buff the next thing. Do you enjoy that? I don't enjoy regearing over and over again, I hope you guys don't like this musical chairs balance either.

  • Hannelore.8153Hannelore.8153 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 7, 2019

    @otto.5684 said:

    @Hannelore.8153 said:
    My Ele is one of, if not my strongest, characters. Too many people try to play Ele in a specific role, like a DPS, and they're not made for that. They're specifically made to be mediocre to moderate at everything, so that they're useful in every situation.

    This is how the mage class has always been in video games, and Ele is the only real mage-alike in GW2.

    The only thing I think that really suffers on the class is the support role in comparison to Chrono, Druid, Firebrand and Revenant. One could even argue that a base Guardian can exceed them at support, although this is mostly in the area of buffing rather than heals.

    I feel like their DPS and defense are okay for risk versus reward, but their support isn't.

    FB, PvE, full condi . I can dump fury, aegis, stability, boat load of CC, protection, reg, quickness, might and good AOE healing. All that while maintaining very high damage, high sustainability and highest burst among all condi builds (and probably exceeds some power ones as well). 20-25 burning stacks in 3-4 secs are real. I can do most of this with very limited sacrifice (if any) to damage effectiveness.

    Weaver has good damage, but zero utility and bad sustain. Tempest has okay sustainability but meh damage. Ele condi builds are pretty weak.

    Sure, FB is an extreme example. But most classes do much more than just dump damage and has sustain that requires little to no drop in damage. Also, ele has meh burst. Let’s face it, devs still have not adjusted from ele from having 40-50k so they could suck at everything else.

    Do not get me started on sPvP 🙄

    This has nothing to do with Elementalist, it has alot to do with Firebrand having access to way too many things (compare to Dragonhunter), they're easily the most vesatile class in the game right now due to the way the tomes were designed have just as many skills as Ele even though that's not supposed to happen, its just a major oversight that ArenaNet won't address despite many complaints.

    If not for their low health, they'd be dominating every game mode. Its their only saving grace.

    Note: I have 18 characters, two of each class, and have played 12.5k hours.

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  • otto.5684otto.5684 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Hannelore.8153 said:

    @otto.5684 said:

    @Hannelore.8153 said:
    My Ele is one of, if not my strongest, characters. Too many people try to play Ele in a specific role, like a DPS, and they're not made for that. They're specifically made to be mediocre to moderate at everything, so that they're useful in every situation.

    This is how the mage class has always been in video games, and Ele is the only real mage-alike in GW2.

    The only thing I think that really suffers on the class is the support role in comparison to Chrono, Druid, Firebrand and Revenant. One could even argue that a base Guardian can exceed them at support, although this is mostly in the area of buffing rather than heals.

    I feel like their DPS and defense are okay for risk versus reward, but their support isn't.

    FB, PvE, full condi . I can dump fury, aegis, stability, boat load of CC, protection, reg, quickness, might and good AOE healing. All that while maintaining very high damage, high sustainability and highest burst among all condi builds (and probably exceeds some power ones as well). 20-25 burning stacks in 3-4 secs are real. I can do most of this with very limited sacrifice (if any) to damage effectiveness.

    Weaver has good damage, but zero utility and bad sustain. Tempest has okay sustainability but meh damage. Ele condi builds are pretty weak.

    Sure, FB is an extreme example. But most classes do much more than just dump damage and has sustain that requires little to no drop in damage. Also, ele has meh burst. Let’s face it, devs still have not adjusted from ele from having 40-50k so they could suck at everything else.

    Do not get me started on sPvP 🙄

    This has nothing to do with Elementalist, it has alot to do with Firebrand having access to way too many things (compare to Dragonhunter), they're easily the most vesatile class in the game right now due to the way the tomes were designed have just as many skills as Ele even though that's not supposed to happen, its just a major oversight that ArenaNet won't address despite many complaints.

    If not for their low health, they'd be dominating every game mode. Its their only saving grace.

    Note: I have 18 characters, two of each class, and have played 12.5k hours.

    I am not doubting your experience. But ele right now is not good in PvE. I used FB as an example. But even compared to DH, DH has way higher burst and much better sustainability. Ya weaver might pull on them in a prolonged damage, but that rarely is the key issue. It is a consistent issue ele face. Tempest even has it worse.

    And this not just a guardian versus ele PvE comparison. For the little higher damage ele may offer in prolonged fight (and there builds that exceed it), it is completely lacking otherwise, making the whole package pretty poor.

    And ele has no PvE support build. Very weak PvP support. Mediocre PvE condi build. Ele is not the worst in every game mode. But overall, it is currently the worst overall class.

  • Jski.6180Jski.6180 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:
    As a sword weaver? My point is cellofrag is a realty good player and its that alone that lets him play the class the way he dose. Its just not a real way of looking at the ele class.

    Your views on the ele class is comply distorted as your making a lot of the class ability to do things on its own with out thinking that the balancing of this game is base off of 5 player pts and that should be the mind set of all points of the game when it comes to balancing of the ele class. This is not a solo game the game is not balanced arone solo game play if a class is good at being solo its just a coincidence and not plan out and is in no way an excuse for losing out as much as the ele class has.

    Then git gud?

    You're mistaken on my views. That whole argument with LazySummer is just an aside. He decided to take issue with an extremely obtuse and specific point in the game (solo performance) when I brought up that, in a group, Weaver does good damage. Likewise, I brought up cellofrag's video to explain how it is that Eles can do a little bit of everything without being incredibly feeble at it.

    I heard the term "Well what about-ism" used earlier today. It fits perfectly with what is going on in this thread. "Well, what about in a big group?" "Well, what about solo?' "Well, what about in a smaller group?" "Well, what about another class?" "Well, what about quickness?" "Well, what about different weapons?" "Well, what about different specializations?" This is the mark of somebody who is wholly biased and unreasonable. You guys aren't approaching Ele balance academically. You're just piling on me because I brought up that your historical revisionism has no basis in fact. The irony is that we've gone almost full circle, from group to solo to group again. You don't realize it because you haven't bothered to see the flow of the conversation. You just jump on whatever I say and try to drag me into any number of infinite tangents.

    You know what else you guys don't realize? This:

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:
    I'm not going to get into the nitty gritty details of balance (though in PVE the sword weaver is definitely not lacking in CC). I have my own misgivings. It is also... not what I was talking about. Throwing a pity party where you rewrite history to exaggerate everything isn't going to accomplish anything. It'll just make the devs dismiss what you have to say outright.

    .

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:
    Ele isn't in the best spot currently, but I can't pretend that the class has always been doomed to failure and obscurity.

    Why, hello Me From Earlier In This Thread! My, it seems you've been completely ignored, haven't you? It looks like everyone exploits your brevity to get ticked off. It's O.K. though, because the silver lining of this is watching everybody publicly making fools of themselves.

    That seems like a bad argument when you simply lack effects. All the skill means nothing if the target is on a wall out side of the ranged of your sword or dagger with no real way of wepon swamping mid combat.

    This game is balanced arone 5 players groups or your 2 target cleaves attks would be on the same balance of 5 target cleaves.

    See ELE forms and you will get my views.

  • Waisenpai.6028Waisenpai.6028 Member ✭✭
    edited June 7, 2019

    WvW stadning point. Also most vids online are edit and fighting lore tier players. Or poor pve karma trains.

    The main issue is wvw. You can still play but you at best feel like a B+ card. Most of the time you are not viable to defeat the top meta. You won't lose but you won't win unless they are lower skill level than you. So you need to be A skill to defeat C+ or B level characters. You meet a B+ or above player you are dead eventually. If you meet a player that mains ele and can also play other class and know ele counter builds. You will die quickly and painfully. Unless you use a bunker builds with no damage and enjoy the chipping war, you will still lose. Or you play a frantic scepter Weaver that preys on builds that cannot counter you at all. Or you really on being carried. I mean all Weaver feels more spvp cheese driven to fight on points. If you fight off points you won't win. Unless they want touch your kitten so badly in melee range. Also other class bunker with power or condi damage is superior to Weaver/ele. Most other class don't want to use bunker. Most of them can emulate or cele builds healing and sustain with 75% zerker or marauder gear and zero healing power. :) This is a profession with no easy fix. Well unless you split wvw/spvp/ open pve/ raids/fractals. Then anet can buff certain areas over others I guess.

    Sword Weavers are decent 1v1 vs non POF metas in wvw. Sadly sword still has low packet damage, very small range and is easy to read. Good luck catching holo, mirage, or firebrand if fleeing from battle. You will never catch the others. And chill from Reapers gibs you so hard.

  • Jski.6180Jski.6180 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I think it comes down to this ideal most of ele effects are self center so they must be melee ranged to land it on targets. Ele is the worst melee class in the game (eng core is a better melee class with no melee wepon). So your always trying to build more tankly to get off your effects BUT in doing so you lose every thing to lets you fill the roll of ele being a mages class.

    The risk is too great to over come for only just viable reward.

    See ELE forms and you will get my views.

  • Shiyo.3578Shiyo.3578 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 11, 2019

    Let me start off by saying that Ele was my main since vanilla 1.0, and is still one of my most played classes that I absolutely love and wish it was better designed and more effective at things not weaver sword(Scepter tempest power is pretty underrated and very good + fun!)

    However, Ele is the only class I find unfun to fight in PvP, not because it's strong, just because nothing it does has actual tells.

    It'd be nice if they buffed ele, while also giving all it's stuff actual tells. It needs to remain okish until it's not boring as hell to fight.

    I'm not saying that ele is overpowered or anything, it's just straight up unfun to fight(and play in it's current awful designed state) imo.

  • Ganathar.4956Ganathar.4956 Member ✭✭✭

    @Shiyo.3578 said:
    Let me start off by saying that Ele was my main since vanilla 1.0, and is still one of my most played classes that I absolutely love and wish it was better designed and more effective at things not weaver sword(Scepter tempest power is pretty underrated and very good + fun!)

    However, Ele is the only class I find unfun to fight in PvP, not because it's strong, just because nothing it does has actual tells.

    It'd be nice if they buffed ele, while also giving all it's stuff actual tells. It needs to remain okish until it's not boring as hell to fight.

    I'm not saying that ele is overpowered or anything, it's just straight up unfun to fight(and play in it's current awful designed state) imo.

    But ele has the longest animation times in the game and no quickness. How can you not tell what's going on? I'm half jesting btw. Most eles run sword and even though it still has higher cast times than average, it feels like waving around a toothpick. I can imagine that your opponents have a hard time telling what's going on as a result. Also, none of the skills feel impactful, so nobody even tries to learn what to avoid. It barely matters anyway. Then there are also the instant proc damage traits and the arcane skills. Scepter burst builds that utilize those can dish out untelegraphed damage really quickly, but this is the only way to play burst because the weapon skills tend to be plain trash that takes too long to land.

    They need to take a good look at all ele weapon skills and bring them on par with the modern standard. The instant damage gimmicks should just go away. Not only from ele though. All professions with such skills need them reworked. Scourges should not be able to instant cast shades for example, even though there is a .5 sec delay.

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