Scrappers, condi clears and diversity (in wvw).

Hello.

Currently scrapper is by far the best class to take in wvw for clearing condis and providing heals. The trait Purity of Purpose make scrappers insane because not only do they clear condis, the convert them into boons. Together with Runes of Anti-toxin, that is 2 condis converted to boons on every proc.All of this makes every other class that focuses on providing condi clears inferior to scrappers. Bringing anything but a scrapper to clear condis puts you and your party in a worse position because you miss out on boons.Please consider adding an ICD (per target) of like 3-5 seconds to Purity of Purpose to put scrappers more in-line with other condi clearing specs.Also, please consider adding an ICD (per target) of 3-5 seconds to the 6th line of anti-toxin rune.

Thanks.

Take your post, replace the word scrapper with scourge, condi-clear with boon corrupt, and realize that there is nothing wrong with Scrapper...well, at least nothing wrong with Scrapper in a game that also has Scourge. They are polar oppposites, and if Scourge didn't exist, Scrapper wouldn't be as good to bring.

While Medi-Scrapper use has gone up since the gyro rework, FB's remain the go to, and Tempest heals are still being used.

And a scrapper using antitoxin runes over monk runs is losing a lot of healing throughput. The benefits of anti-toxin don't come without a cost.

TLDR: nothing wrong with Scrapper in a game mode where Scourge also exists.

Scourge is a different topic.There is no other class in the game that does nearly as much boon corrupts. Maybe SB dome, but that is only boon rip.Had there been another class that corrupt boons and it was getting pushed out of meta by scourges, maybe you would see treads about that as well.On a fundamental level, scourge is the only true boon corrupter while scrapper is not the only condi clear provider.

@"Vova.2640" said:Hello.

Currently scrapper is by far the best class to take in wvw for clearing condis and providing heals. The trait Purity of Purpose make scrappers insane because not only do they clear condis, the convert them into boons. Together with Runes of Anti-toxin, that is 2 condis converted to boons on every proc.All of this makes every other class that focuses on providing condi clears inferior to scrappers. Bringing anything but a scrapper to clear condis puts you and your party in a worse position because you miss out on boons.Please consider adding an ICD (per target) of like 3-5 seconds to Purity of Purpose to put scrappers more in-line with other condi clearing specs.Also, please consider adding an ICD (per target) of 3-5 seconds to the 6th line of anti-toxin rune.

Thanks.

While scrapper may be the best at condi cleansing at the moment, see that is does about nothing else. It is easily defeated with tonsof CC. Firebrands provide tons of stability while cleansing, tempests provide boons by themselves and a ton of other utility like reflection.And both of those also do a bit of damage! Scrapper really doesn't if on the healing build.

Asking for 3-5 seconds of ICD for any of those two abilities makes me suspect you never even played any of these classes. Evenan ICD of 0,5 seconds would ruin most of the rune's support (notice that healers have to take stats which are not useful for themto even get the tier 6 bonus, like condi damage).And an ICD like that on purity of purpose would instantly ruin what ANET just made playable. If scourges are allowed to corruptwhole zergs and blanket idiotic areas with condi fields, why shouldn't a scrapper be able to counter a scourge? I have NEVER seen morethan 4 scrappers in one zerg, not all of them healing ones either at the same time because most commanders prefer FBs even now.

And in this scourge meta we need classes like scrapper to make WvW more than "Buh---I ran through the enemy and facerolled on my keyboardand he still lives?! HAX!"

Scrapper is a nice addition in zergs that primarily counters corrupts and condi-spam.even full-power-scourges spam conditions in very short intervals. Without this, purity of purpose wouldn't have such a strong effect.

The statement that bringing anything else would give a disadvantage is also not correct.Currently, heal-tempests are also pretty common to use in addition to scrappers. Their superspeed, might and fury generation independent of incoming conditions and easy access to frost and shock-aura is pretty useful. If you already have 1-2 scrappers you can add 1-2 tempests. The condi-spam will interestingly usually be enough for all 4 of them. (in a >25 squad).And since 1 scrapper usually provides enough cleanse for 10-15 people, there are free slots in groups.

Guards are out of the competition because of their stability and resistance share.

Nerves to antitoxin will probably bring back monk (+30% heal or so) or alturism+mortar (1 group cleanse per second).Nerves to the purity of purpose will likely bring back anticorrosive plating, which will increase condi-cleanse, thanks to the vuln-spam.By the way: any ICD, even 1/4s, on rune or trait makes them useless in a zerg setup

Side note: I liked the altruism+Mortar gameplay when playing with multiple scrappers. Conditions problems became pretty random at some point. Also bouncing 90 stacks of burning in a mortar-field to stack aegis... fun times ;)

@Vova.2640 said:Scourge is a different topic.There is no other class in the game that does nearly as much boon corrupts. Maybe SB dome, but that is only boon rip.Had there been another class that corrupt boons and it was getting pushed out of meta by scourges, maybe you would see treads about that as well.On a fundamental level, scourge is the only true boon corrupter while scrapper is not the only condi clear provider.

I won't disagree with what you are saying, but this post doesn't add to the discussion. You are saying that Purity of Purpose needs to be nerfed to bring Scrapper's in line with other support classes. So if they nerf Purity to bring Scrapper in line with Firebrand, what will they then do to boost Scrapper's other utility to the level of Firebrand? Stability? Reflects? Retaliation?

Scrapper brings Condi Cleanse (well, condi corrupt I guess is more accurate), Stealth and Super speed. Nerf Purity of Purpose and you might as well just replace them with FB.

Just because one spec/profession is #1 at something, doesn't make it OP. It's only an issue when they are #1 at everything...as FB used to be (though they are still hovering close to being OP).

A zerg running full scrappers will be sorely missing FBs. A zerg running full FBs will be just fine.

Not a problem.

I'll just copy/paste what I said in the other thread:

@coro.3176 said:The changes to Cleansing Sigl and Antitoxin with the other synergies make condi damage effectively impossible. Let me lay it out for you.

As a Support Scrapper with antitoxin runes, I can cleanse

• 10 conditions every 20s with Purge Gyro, plus 2 more for each combo in the light field (self and allies)
• 10 conditions every 12s with Fumigate (only allies)
• 2 conditions every 20s with Super Elixir, plus 2 more for each combo in the light field (self and allies)
• 2 conditions every 17s with Bandage Self and the Cleansing Synergy trait (self)
• 8 conditions every 15s with Cleansing Field (self and allies)
• 4 conditions every 9s if I equip sigil of cleansing (self)

So, assuming 1 combo in each light field (not unreasonable), I can cleanse approximately 43 condi per 20s from nearby allies, and 36.5 condi per 20s from myself.

That. Is. Madness.

oh, and all of those conditions cleared are converted to boons

oh, and I'm personally taking 25% less condi duration from the antitoxin runes in the extremely unlikely chance a condi sticks long enough to actually tick damage

As a condi build, how am I ever going to get damage out of my Blowtorch burn on a 12s cooldown, or even my poison dart volley on an 8s cooldown?

Condi is literally unplayable vs that amount of cleanse.

It's not JUST scrapper that is cleansing too much, but scrapper (or more accurately, the engi trait synergy) is the main offender.

There are only 14 conditions in the game, and they stack with each other, so with just 1 support class like this and you can keep your entire party effectively immune to condi. That's not good gameplay.

P> @coro.3176 said:

I'll just copy/paste what I said in the other thread:

@coro.3176 said:The changes to Cleansing Sigl and Antitoxin with the other synergies make condi damage effectively impossible. Let me lay it out for you.

As a Support Scrapper with antitoxin runes, I can cleanse

• 10
  conditions every 20s with Purge Gyro, plus
  2
  more for each combo in the light field (self and allies)
• 10
  conditions every 12s with Fumigate (only allies)
• 2
  conditions every 20s with Super Elixir, plus
  2
  more for each combo in the light field (self and allies)
• 2
  conditions every 17s with Bandage Self and the Cleansing Synergy trait (self)
• 8
  conditions every 15s with Cleansing Field (self and allies)
• 4
  conditions every 9s if I equip sigil of cleansing (self)

So, assuming 1 combo in each light field (not unreasonable), I can cleanse approximately

43

condi per 20s from nearby allies, and

36.5

condi per 20s from myself.

That. Is.

Madness

.

oh, and all of those conditions cleared are converted to boons

oh, and I'm personally taking 25% less condi duration from the antitoxin runes in the extremely unlikely chance a condi sticks long enough to actually tick damage

As a condi build, how am I

ever

going to get damage out of my Blowtorch burn on a 12s cooldown, or even my poison dart volley on an 8s cooldown?

Condi is literally unplayable vs that amount of cleanse.

I'm in the camp that scrapper needs to be nerfed to oblivion. This is a failed spec idea. It is either garbage or exceptionally OP. I'd rather it be the former. Besides, engi is the most underplayed spec anyway.

I'm in the camp that scrapper needs to be nerfed to oblivion. This is a failed spec idea. It is either garbage or exceptionally OP. I'd rather it be the former. Besides, engi is the most underplayed spec anyway.

So we need to make sure nobody plays any elite spec of engineer either? If scrappers are such a horrible problem for poor condi users in the game, why do we still see 10-20 scourges in all full zergs? It's not like cleanses protect you from CC. In my opinion scourge has no place in WvW and ruins the gameplay for tons of classes, making most melee gameplay void in zergs. Scrapper is mostly a scourge counter nowadays. If people get off their scourges, there'll be no need for scrappers probably.And even now, there's only a handfull of scrappers. Why is that?And as someone who plays a scrapper, even with all the cleanses, there are cooldowns which you must use to help your teammates. Eventually you will run out of them. Also you still die if you get pushed. Not even minstrel gear will help you survive if you get hit head on.If you'd like for it to be garbage, get off your scourge. Tell your friends. In a game there are counters. But scourge cannot really be allowed to "counter" about everything. THAT is horrible gameplay.

@"MLinni.6109" said:

I'm in the camp that scrapper needs to be nerfed to oblivion. This is a failed spec idea. It is either garbage or exceptionally OP. I'd rather it be the former. Besides, engi is the most underplayed spec anyway.

not to mention while other classes's support skills have 600-1200 radiuses engineers's have 180-240-300 radius and are a tossed projectile or are a pulsing field so the targets you want to support have to stay in place wich only works in wvw if you have a coordinated blob full of tanks and support

the runes doubling cleanses without an cd does sound broken though

@MLinni.6109 said:

I'm in the camp that scrapper needs to be nerfed to oblivion. This is a failed spec idea. It is either garbage or exceptionally OP. I'd rather it be the former. Besides, engi is the most underplayed spec anyway.

So.. if you actually play wvw and pay attention, you'll notice that all the scourges are POWER scourge.

• power, because condi damage doesn't stick at all thanks to support cleansing every second.
• scourge, because it has the largest aoe coverage on the lowest cooldown. It's pretty foolproof to throw down huge aoe fields that can't be reflected plus it covers the squad defensively too.
• scourge, because aoe corrupts are important due to the back and forth nature of condi -> convert to boon -> convert to condi. Most attacks come with at least some incidental condi, so you can't avoid scrappers converting them. The best you can hope to do is have your own scourges and your own scrappers going back and forth. At no point is the condi actually designed to do damage though. The main thing you're trying to do is corrupt protection and stability on the enemy.

And even now, there's only a handfull of scrappers. Why is that?

Because you don't need very many to keep your entire squad clear. My guild tries to run 1 per 5 players, but even with fewer than that, it's still ridiculously effective.

If you run too many, there's literally no condi left to clear and you're just wasting spots in your group that would be better spent on dps or other support like FB.

@"MLinni.6109" said:

I'm in the camp that scrapper needs to be nerfed to oblivion. This is a failed spec idea. It is either garbage or exceptionally OP. I'd rather it be the former. Besides, engi is the most underplayed spec anyway.

The thing is, necro is an awesome class while engis don't belong in this game both thematically and mechanically. It's ridiculous how these forums defend an obviously OP out-of-place spec. Medic scrappers need a nerf. Period.

@MLinni.6109 said:While scrapper may be the best at condi cleansing at the moment, see that is does about nothing else.

wrong you are sir. cleanses are converted to boons, and simple med kit 1 spam with quickness along with regen and medical dispersion field provides tons of healing. more then a fb for sure.

@titibalbon.7495 said:The thing is, necro is an awesome class while engis don't belong in this game both thematically and mechanically. It's ridiculous how these forums defend an obviously OP out-of-place spec. Medic scrappers need a nerf. Period.

lol, no one complained about scrapper before gyro rework, then all of a sudden its ZOMG I cant press all my buttons and kill this... thing. med kit IS NOT op. grow brain pls.

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:

@MLinni.6109 said:While scrapper may be the best at condi cleansing at the moment, see that is does about nothing else.

That is true of course. But on Med Kit you don't do damage either. If there's a class which can corrupt a ton of boons, I don't see a class existing which converts condis back to boons as a problem. Scourge has brought a ton of area control with the shade mechanic which plasters about everything in AoE fields. Without defensive countermeasures a fight would maybe last a push or two before one side is routed. With firebrands, tempests and scrappers a battle at least feels like a battle.

@titibalbon.7495 said:The thing is, necro is an awesome class while engis don't belong in this game both thematically and mechanically. It's ridiculous how these forums defend an obviously OP out-of-place spec. Medic scrappers need a nerf. Period.I disagree on both counts. With the advent of technology in GW2 (Charrs and their war machines etc, Asura with their magitek and even Humans with Clockwork Knights) something like Engineer makes perfect sense to compensate for not being a magic user.In my opinion it is not scrappers which are the problem but AoE spam which has been overly prevalent in GW2 since PoF at the latest. Support classes need their niches for organized zerg play.

@titibalbon.7495 said:The thing is, necro is an awesome class while engis don't belong in this game both thematically and mechanically.

I'm not even attached to scrapper much, but that petty argument is pretty poor when knowing the mechanics of a certain pink spewing class that makes zero sense and that has been a plague in most of aspects of the game since uh... 2012 I think, until very recently, but you know, to each his own fun... and hypocrisy.

lmao Am I hearing this correctly? Converting to boons is OP? Spamming 1 on Med Kit is OP? Necro players really come to the Engi forums to say we're shutting down condis by converting them into boons? That you can't corrupt them enough because cleanses are too effective and too often? Go look back on the history of this game and repent for your sins.

Y'all are out here going ONE (1) Scrapper doing their ONE (1) job for 5 people at 360 range is an outrageous offense but 10 SCOURGES IN A GROUP dropping AOE hate walls is normal and adequate and proper.

@titibalbon.7495 said:The thing is, necro is an awesome class while engis don't belong in this game both thematically and mechanically. It's ridiculous how these forums defend an obviously OP out-of-place spec. Medic scrappers need a nerf. Period.

Necromancer is clearly the OP class as this post has simultaneously killed me and gave me life.

@titibalbon.7495 said:

The thing is, necro is an awesome class while engis don't belong in this game both thematically and mechanically. It's ridiculous how these forums defend an obviously OP out-of-place spec. Medic scrappers need a nerf. Period.

Nice provocation^^ and nice Play to generalize the Topic to a class as a whole. Luckily it is a matter of personal opinion if engi fits in the game or not.

Regarding condi clears... I know scrapper can clear a looot.... and he can clear it from up to 5 allies. Most condition classes can apply their conditions to 5 allies too.I think the Problem is not the amount of condi clears he can do, it is that certain skills can remove conditions over time while he can heal during the same time.I think it would be perfectly fine if scrapper has to actively cast skills for condi remove (e.g. fumigate) so he has to Switch between either removing condis OR healing. Currently he can do both at once (e.g. purge gyro).This could lead to a nice Distribution of condition and power damage in the zerg to minimize the Efficiency of enemy-scrappers.

@Nilix.2170 said:lmao Am I hearing this correctly? Converting to boons is OP? Spamming 1 on Med Kit is OP? Necro players really come to the Engi forums to say we're shutting down condis by converting them into boons? That you can't corrupt them enough because cleanses are too effective and too often? Go look back on the history of this game and repent for your sins.

Y'all are out here going ONE (1) Scrapper doing their ONE (1) job for 5 people at 360 range is an outrageous offense but 10 SCOURGES IN A GROUP dropping AOE hate walls is normal and adequate and proper.

The problem is ONE Scrapper doing that ONE job almost completely protects those 5 people from half the damage and mechanics in the game indefinitely. It doesn't matter if there are 10 scourges in the group or 100 due to the way conditions stack and are cleansed.

Imagine if Firebrand made 5 players immune to all power damage every second and could keep this up forever. It'd obviously be broken.

This is what Scrapper is doing vs condi.

I mean, I play support scrapper in an organized guild. I know what it's doing, and I know it's broken as fuck.

===

To tone this down, I'd probably nerf rune of antitoxin. It is severely overperforming by basically doubling cleanse on scrapper. I'd either put a 10s ICD on it, or rework it to only apply on main healing skills.

@coro.3176 said:

@"Nilix.2170" said:

No it doesn't and not indefinitely if the opponents have half a brain.

I mean, I play support scrapper in an organized guild. I know what it's doing, and I know it's broken as kitten.

===

To tone this down, I'd probably nerf rune of antitoxin. It is severely overperforming by basically doubling cleanse on scrapper. I'd either put a 10s ICD on it, or rework it to only apply on main healing skills.

This seems highly unlikely, especially with this "suggestion" for a fix. A 1s ICD on antitoxin would already cost most of the effectiveness given how the cleansing powers work, 10s seems like an attempt to rile people up.

Oh by the way, I am playing a scourge in an organized guild. I am very aware that it ruins most of the variety in WvW.How about we increase the CD of the sandshades by 10s, double the life force costs of the F-powers and halve the barrieroutput? That might be a start of a fix.

@MLinni.6109 said:

@coro.3176 said:

@"Nilix.2170" said:

... care to elaborate on that? If Scrapper is cleansing over 2 condi per second, the opponents need to be condi bombing with >2 different condi per second. That is how it works. Otherwise you'll never get more than 1 tick of a condi.

I mean, I play support scrapper in an organized guild. I know what it's doing, and I know it's broken as kitten.

===

To tone this down, I'd probably nerf rune of antitoxin. It is severely overperforming by basically doubling cleanse on scrapper. I'd either put a 10s ICD on it, or rework it to only apply on main healing skills.

Why would 1s affect anything? Most of scrapper's cleansing is on a 1s pulse interval anyway (purge gyro, cleansing field, etc.) so a even with a 1s ICD, it's still doubling cleanse.

The ICD would have to be MINIMUM 2s, but IMO would be more balanced at 10.

By nerfing Scrapper you don't get more diversity, but less as Scrapper is removed fro meta and condi cleanse is split to FB and some revs running Mallyx.Scourge is not comparable, even if it doesn't have the insane amount of corrupts it still brings 2nd easiest damage. Scrapper, on the other hand, has nothing more to offer.

@MrForz.1953 said:

@titibalbon.7495 said:The thing is, necro is an awesome class while engis don't belong in this game both thematically and mechanically.

Cmon, another baby forum warrior with the freaking mesmer tears here... We get it, you hate Mesmer. Now do us a favor and leave the game or let Mesmers kill you and move on.There is no need to bring the stupid pink racism in every freaking forum post.

@Ansau.7326 said:By nerfing Scrapper you don't get more diversity, but less as Scrapper is removed fro meta and condi cleanse is split to FB and some revs running Mallyx.Scourge is not comparable, even if it doesn't have the insane amount of corrupts it still brings 2nd easiest damage. Scrapper, on the other hand, has nothing more to offer.

I think it still has plenty.

• It shares nearly perma-superspeed for the squad, which is a significant advantage in a zerg fight that revolves around avoiding aoe
• It has moving fields, which allow mobile combo play rather than having to sit in one spot and blast (eg. for water or stealth)
• It allows a great stealth engage with Sneak Gyro. Mass invis affects more targets, but Sneak Gyro can be blasted to last longer.
• It has a unique damage reduction buff that stacks with protection. You can even avoid taking the shared damage if you dodge + block while it is active. That is huge and lets your squad survive heavy power bombs that would otherwise drop half your group.
• Moving aoe stability and projectile cancelling bubble is great for covering your team during a push
• Any conditions cleansed are converted to boons

And I'm not saying it shouldn't cleanse any condi. I just think it is currently cleansing far too many per second. It's at something like 43 per 20s, potentially even more if you combo well. That is crazy. I think that could be halved and the class would still be quite strong. Most of that extra cleanse is coming from Antitoxin runes. I think if you stick a 10s ICD on that, (or even 5, really), it'd be in a much better spot.

I'm surprised there weren't attemps at "correcting" scourge before pulling out the necessary evil that the new scrapper is. Unless it was what was intended all along. Inflicting and cleansing conditions are taken to a whole new level these days.

@Ansau.7326 said:Cmon, another baby forum warrior with the freaking mesmer tears here... We get it, you hate Mesmer. Now do us a favor and leave the game or let Mesmers kill you and move on.There is no need to bring the stupid pink racism in every freaking forum post.I'm personally fine with them you know, don't mind the language. To each his own, much like the guy I quoted and what people think about Thief, mostly Deadeye everyday. I'm pretty sure you must have felt good writing this though so, fantastic. I'm sorry the mere mention got you in that state though.