Could Zhaitan be alive

To fully kill Kralkatorrik we had to fly inside of him and destroy his heart

To kill Mordremoth we had to go into the dream and destroy his mind

We know from Kralkatorrik that just attacking the dragon might kill its body but will leave the dragon sentient and alive. So is there a chance that Zhaitan could still be alive, since we just spammed a cannon on an unmoving target? Or no since we know Kralkatorrik and Mordremoth both absorbed some of his magic.

Idk this is probably stupid.

No, his magic was absorbed completely by Kralk, indicating he is fully dead

I mean, it's not impossible that Zhaitan's regenerating somewhere. A good rule of thumb in fiction is that you should never count on something remaining dead unless you've seen the corpse (and performed several double taps for good measure).

Was the undead plague dragon "alive" to begin with?

Questions...

Zhaitan was the weakest of all the elder dragons... so it makes sense that he was the easiest to bring down without requiring any special ways to kill him.

He's totally regenerating from his severed tail in the Durmand Priory. He's gonna fuse with that Jade Wurm in there

@Adrianna.3092 said:Zhaitan was the weakest of all the elder dragons... so it makes sense that he was the easiest to bring down without requiring any special ways to kill him.

Well, he wasnt necs the weakest beyond the fact the others absorbed his magic and other sources through the game to strengthen them. Zhaitan was only defeated because we weakened him via starving him through killing Mouths and partially blinding him by killing Eyes -a campaign which lasted months in in-game time. This was his unique weakness the others lack and that allowed to fight him more as a giant creature than a powered up ED, using a specially designed and attuned weapon.

Op, his magic and spheres were absorbed by Tequatl and Modremoth and later other Dragons. That couldnt happen unless he was dead. The All cutscenes in ls2 showed him as destroyed as well via representation

I'm not sure - Glint speaks to Revenant..And Joko/Aurene/main char also were dead (i know i know, it's overrated).But the thing now with Kralk being "a victim"..So far Gods and dragons were represented as being over-intelligent and ancient beings. And we,as someone monumentally stupid, have to discover the bad ancient secret, that turned them into evil?? In short - who knows, it could simply turn upside down for all we know so far..TLDR: it's the mages! It's aways been "those greedy mages" problem ever since Dragon Age... ;)

Offtopic: I just want Joko back, as those people crying at his shrine in Jahai Bluffs... ;)

Exceptionally unlikely for the following reasons:

1. The Pact did not leave Orr. If Zhaitan survived, they'd have taken note of it.
2. The Priory recovered pieces of Zhaitan for study.
3. Mordremoth and Kralkatorrik consumed Zhaitan magic; later what Mordremoth consumed was consumed by Primordus upon Mordremoth's death.
4. During PoF, the Forgotten and Exalted make constant mention of both Mordremoth's and Zhaitan's deaths causing issue to Glint's Legacy.

@Adrianna.3092 said:Zhaitan was the weakest of all the elder dragons... so it makes sense that he was the easiest to bring down without requiring any special ways to kill him.

Nothing actually says Zhaitan was the weakest of all Elder Dragons - just that the others are strong than Zhaitan after getting Zhaitan's magic. But when Zhaitan lived, all Elder Dragons were more or less equal - Kralkatorrik would have been the weakest at the time, due to having absorbed the least amount of the world's magic, in fact. If we go purely off of how much magic they likely consumed from ley lines and the like since awakening, Zhaitan would have been second weakest (ignoring Mordremoth who was still asleep - third weakest if counting Mordremoth).

And technically Zhaitan did require a bit of a special way to kill him, or rather to weaken him so that he could be killed. Zhaitan's unique weakness was the reliance on specialized minions to function for him - namely the Eyes and Mouths that we killed. Had we not killed so many Eyes and Mouths, then Zhaitan would not have fallen nearly so easily, even with the weaponry designed to counter Zhaitan's magic.

@Westenev.5289 said:I mean, it's not impossible that Zhaitan's regenerating somewhere. A good rule of thumb in fiction is that you should never count on something remaining dead unless you've seen the corpse (and performed several double taps for good measure).

It is, because his magic is gone, and his domain was absorbed by Mordremoth and Primordus. And later by kralkatorrik.His body could reanimate, perhaps, but no more as any other random undead (mindless animated flesh, animated by someone else). 'Zhaitan' is 105% dead and gone

@Ayakaru.6583 said:

@Westenev.5289 said:I mean, it's not impossible that Zhaitan's regenerating somewhere. A good rule of thumb in fiction is that you should never count on something remaining dead unless you've seen the corpse (and performed several double taps for good measure).

This doesn't prove anything other than the idea that domains can be held by multiple dragons at once. It doesn't prove that he died, just that his magic was scattered.

Even if Zhaitan somehow revived he wouldn't be any stronger than Tequatl since most of his magic was absorbed by the other dragons. He'd probably be a lot easier to defeat a second time with less than 1% of his original power.

@Westenev.5289 said:

@Ayakaru.6583 said:

@Westenev.5289 said:I mean, it's not impossible that Zhaitan's regenerating somewhere. A good rule of thumb in fiction is that you should never count on something remaining dead unless you've seen the corpse (and performed several double taps for good measure).

In every case we've seen, however- even Joko- a being's magic doesn't scatter without that being being killed. The dispersal of one's magic, in Tyria, is as much a proof of death as seeing someone's head separated from their body is in the real world.

Back 7 years ago the devs probably didnt know we would have to destroy Kralks heart, but who knows...

zhaitan could be living in the hero. no one is truly evil or good anyway. :pensive:

@Westenev.5289 said:

@Ayakaru.6583 said:

@Westenev.5289 said:I mean, it's not impossible that Zhaitan's regenerating somewhere. A good rule of thumb in fiction is that you should never count on something remaining dead unless you've seen the corpse (and performed several double taps for good measure).

So by your logic Balthazar and Joko are still alive as well.By that logic, no one dies.

Their magic was their life, or at least, bound to it.It doesn't scatter unless they're dead.The release of it, the magical explosion, is caused by their death.It was one reason people suspected Aurene wasn't dead yet, because she didn't magically explode.

@Ayakaru.6583 said:

@Westenev.5289 said:

@Ayakaru.6583 said:

@Westenev.5289 said:I mean, it's not impossible that Zhaitan's regenerating somewhere. A good rule of thumb in fiction is that you should never count on something remaining dead unless you've seen the corpse (and performed several double taps for good measure).

While I do consider Westenev wrong for the reasons Aaron pointed out, Westenev's logic doesn't conclude Balthazar and Joko are wrong because they said "unless you've seen the corpse" and, well, we saw the corpse of Balthazar and Joko - and Mordremoth, while we're at it

Their magic was their life, or at least, bound to it.It doesn't scatter unless they're dead.The release of it, the magical explosion, is caused by their death.It was one reason people suspected Aurene wasn't dead yet, because she didn't magically explode.

Partially incorrect; non-gods do not die with an explosion of magic. Zhaitan had no "explosion of magic" and Mordremoth merely had a flash of light, really. Vlast exploded, but this was his body, not his magic, and Glint's magic remained in her corpse when the Zephyrites found her body and hardnessed the remnant magic to form the three Aspects (which could only be done because of her death). Even Kralkatorrik had no explosion of magic.

As far as we've seen, only Abaddon and Balthazar had an "explosion of magic". That said, the core of one's magic can only become free when one is dead or through some non-standard means to unbind it which results in death - ala Joko and Khilbron.

Which is to say, death is either a requirement, or a result, of others taking all magic. So Zhaitan is definitely dead all. But this doesn't necessarily mean an explosion of magic will occur on death in any highly magical being.

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@Ayakaru.6583 said:

@Westenev.5289 said:

@Ayakaru.6583 said:

@Westenev.5289 said:I mean, it's not impossible that Zhaitan's regenerating somewhere. A good rule of thumb in fiction is that you should never count on something remaining dead unless you've seen the corpse (and performed several double taps for good measure).

Their magic was their life, or at least, bound to it.It doesn't scatter unless they're dead.The release of it, the magical explosion, is

caused by

their death.It was one reason people suspected Aurene wasn't dead yet, because she didn't magically explode.

Explosion wasn't meant in the literal sense, apologies, more of an.. uncontrolled release.Zhaitan was very .. subtle at death, but then again, that release could've occurred after they fel out of sight.

Right on with Joko, i forgot they left his bones to Aurene.Balthazar didn't leave a corpse, though, he 'disintegrated' for the lack of a better word.Speaking of which, purely semantics, doesn't change the debate.Can Mordremoth leave a corpse?As far as i know, we never saw a 'real' body.He was a mind that lived in a created body, and had a primary vessel connected to the mouth of Mordremoth.But upon corporeal death, he could just jump to any body he was connected with. Which is why killing the mouth of Mordremoth and his three champions was vital for this to succeed. To leave Trahearne as the last near vessel

Zhaitan is only the "weakest" of the Elder dragons because we fought him at a point in time where all the dragons were in a state of balance and somewhat equal power.His death severely upset the the balance of magic in the world resulting in the other Elder Dragons consuming more magic and gaining more power, the same is true for Tequatl who is confirmed by Anet to have also gained a power boost after his master was killed.. the Vigil referred to this power boost as Tequatl "evolving".

In reality.. or the lore at least, Zhaitan wasn't weak.. far from it in fact.If you think back to the personal story Zhaitan was a damn pestilence compared to the other dragons.. he was everywhere along the Tarnished Coast even as far as Kryta.The other Dragons were more or less chilling out and laying back while Zhaitan was taking over the world lolIt took a united Tyrian wide military effort to push him back into Orr and take him down.

It's very easy for us to not think kindly to Zhaitan because of how poorly our final encounter with him was done but he was very much thee biggest threat to the world back then by far.If anything we took down Mordremoth and Kralktorrik with a lot less than we had when we fought Zhaitan.. granted that's partly because Mordremoth essentially nuked the Magumma Jungle to take down the pact fleet XDSeriously.. just look at the sheer devastation of Verdant Brink.. the damage these dragons can do is absolutely immense.It's very easy to not pay attention to it or think about it when you're running around exploring these maps but it's there to see.

Zhaitan rose a whole continent when he woke up.. and wiped Lions Arch completely off the map.His army or horde was massive in comparrison to other Dragon Minions.The more dragons we kill though the more powerful the others become.Kralktorrik had to eat a lot of magic to obtain the kind of power he had when we took him down, if we had fought him first instead of Zhaitan he wouldn't have been anywhere near as powerful and he certainly wouldn't have had the ability to go free roaming in the mists punching his way into different God Realms.

As far as how the Dragons die goes, keep in mind that not only did Kralkatorrik and Mordremoth have a lot more power than Zhaitan when they fell but they were also significantly larger as well.Zhaitan is very small compared to Kralkatorrik and he was made from seemingly dead flesh so his body would not be as resillient as Kralkatorrik who was made from crystal and possibly some sort of rock or obsidian scale which made him damn near impenetrable.. hence why we had to weaken him with Resonating Blast, essentially fracturing his crystal skin creating weak spots we could stab :)

As for Mordremoth, we only ever see his physical mouth as he was burried into the ground where canon fire and traditional weapons just couldn't reach him.

Primordus we know too is made from very hard rock and Jormag likely made from very strong Ice so in terms of physical defences Zhaitan gets the short end of the stick on that one, however being undead makes him pretty durable in his own right too.. similarly to Joko so he's not entirely without protection.If you think back to that fight with Zhaitan we essentially dismember and cripple him before we blast the ever loving skritt out of him with magical canonfire.As far as Dragon Deaths go that one was pretty brutal even though it wasn't potrayed very well in game, personally I think it would be worth re-doing that final segment of the fight into a cutscene where we get to watch Zhaitan get his face utterly rekt by a full bombardment of canonfire.. that would be epic.

We did kill Zhaitan in a special way. Mordremoth, you had to kill his mind, Kralk you had to destroy the heart. Zhaitan, you had to destroy his bodily organs. And when I say bodily organs, I mean his minions--the "Eye" the "Mouth", ect. Zhaitan's weakness was that he essentially used specialized minions as his external-internal organs, to expand his ability to absorb magic.The special way to kill Zhaitan was to track and kill all the sentient organs outside his body, then go in and kill the weakened and damaged body.

@Ayakaru.6583 said:Can Mordremoth leave a corpse?As far as i know, we never saw a 'real' body.He was a mind that lived in a created body, and had a primary vessel connected to the mouth of Mordremoth.But upon corporeal death, he could just jump to any body he was connected with. Which is why killing the mouth of Mordremoth and his three champions was vital for this to succeed. To leave Trahearne as the last near vessel

His core body was the Mouth of Mordremoth. That's why when talking to cadets in Vabbi the PC says Mordremoth died by impaling himself on a tree; and why when Kralkatorrik uses his mega-blast in All or Nothing that shows an image of Zhaitan and Balthazar, for Mordremoth is shows the Mouth. This is also why the shadowy figure in the Dream / seen by sylvari is just a shadowy version of the Mouth of Mordremoth's head, and why the avatar in the Dream has the same head as the Mouth of Mordremoth.

It's not 100% clear, but it's heavily implied that we kill the Mouth at least three times; the last time being after the events of Hearts and Minds, when it's nothing but instinctual hunger. By that, the last vessel wasn't Trahearne, but Mordremoth itself. I tend to liken our three-times of killing Mordremoth to killing the superego in the Dream, killing the ego in Trahearne, and killing the id in his core body.

@Teratus.2859 said:Zhaitan rose a whole continent when he woke up.. and wiped Lions Arch completely off the map.Orr isn't a continent.

@Teratus.2859 said:As far as how the Dragons die goes, keep in mind that not only did Kralkatorrik and Mordremoth have a lot more power than Zhaitan when they fell but they were also significantly larger as well.Zhaitan is very small compared to Kralkatorrik and he was made from seemingly dead flesh so his body would not be as resillient as Kralkatorrik who was made from crystal and possibly some sort of rock or obsidian scale which made him kitten near impenetrable.. hence why we had to weaken him with Resonating Blast, essentially fracturing his crystal skin creating weak spots we could stab :)

Regarding size, I wouldn't so outright say that Zhaitan was considerably smaller. While yes, compared to Kralk's PoF, All or Nothing, or Dragonfall heads/bodies, Zhiatan's final model is small, but keep in mind that Kralkatorrik basically has four sizes throughout the game, depending on the circumstance. During The All, he is shrunk considerably so that he can always be seen in the story instance.

Zhaitan is likely the same - shrunk for the sake of ensuring that he always shows up regardless of the draw distance, since he's always flying back and forth in the background.

However, if you compare the model for Zhaitan's corpse (which due to a model design change, never made it into the game as they seemingly didn't have time to make a new corpse model), it's size isn't that far off from Kralkatorrik's size during Dragonfall, our first instance of seeing Kralkatorrik "full body" without worry of draw distance.

I wouldn't doubt that if they had time to finish the Zhaitan fight properly with that final phase after knocking him off the tower, and add a corpse of his new model into Arah explorable, that it'd be roughly the size of that partial corpse model we have in the dat still.

he's Dead Dead, thatShaman data mined his corpse yonks ago, which suggested at one point Anet was thinking about letting players to get down there to pay him a final visit

Which something I think Anet can totally salvage the assets to create a 'beginner' raid where players have to do the actual final finishing blow

or...with the current PCs capable of handling large PoF maps, I think will be pretty darh cool to merge all 4 maps into a mega map (Straits of Devastation, Malchor’s Leap, Cursed Shore, City of Arah) to create a giant Orr meta

• 5 lanes, each lane is the Cathedral
• Capture the Cathedrals to open the access (gate/portal) to Temple's sacred inner chambers, which locates within City of Arah
• Similar to Dragon Stand, each inner chambers will be guarded by a dragon champion, corrupted head priests of the human gods
• Zhaitan fight, those tentacles that are coming out from his mouth is now popping out from everywhere from his body, he will be invulnerable and gain HP as long as one of them is dug into the ground to suck magic buried underneath of Arah; basically the groups needs to spread out to continuously destroying them like the pod at DS

@crepuscular.9047 said:he's Dead Dead, thatShaman data mined his corpse yonks ago, which suggested at one point Anet was thinking about letting players to get down there to pay him a final visit

Which something I think Anet can totally salvage the assets to create a 'beginner' raid where players have to do the actual final finishing blow

It's a bit more than that. Late in development, they changed Zhaitan's appearance entirely. The corpse that can partially be found in gw.dat is the original mode, which is fundamentally different than the final appearance. It looks closer to the shots of Zhaitan in the trailer and earlier cinematics. The horns are different, and Zhaitan has a jaw, as well as armor plating on its back and neck, and the arm is less freakish.

It's an even bigger difference than between PoF Kralkatorrik and S4 finale Kralkatorrik.

They originally did have Zhaitan's corpse in Arah, but removed it due to changing the model. We likely don't see the new model having a corpse in Arah because of how late into development the model was changed. It likely is why the fight itself was so incomplete and rushed.

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@crepuscular.9047 said:he's Dead Dead, thatShaman data mined his corpse yonks ago, which suggested at one point Anet was thinking about letting players to get down there to pay him a final visit

Which something I think Anet can totally salvage the assets to create a 'beginner' raid where players have to do the actual final finishing blow

Which is fine, Anet can always scale it up or down, like what that they did with Kalk over time, just as long as they use the same model

Being scrapped does not mean it cannot be reused, I think the community will be really excited to see some refreshing to core Tyria contents, and gives free to play player a glimps of what raid or big map wide meta is, cos currently the only ones in core Tyria are SW, Triple Trouble, and Gate of Arah

@"Rockin Twilight Sparkle.2615" said:He's totally regenerating from his severed tail in the Durmand Priory. He's gonna fuse with that Jade Wurm in there

A jade death dragon would be neat if highly unlikely