Class HP / Power balancing suggestion — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Class HP / Power balancing suggestion

Jski.6180Jski.6180 Member ✭✭✭✭

If anet must have class base hp balancing (some classes simply have more hp because they are one class or another) why not have power base work the same way?

This game is very much HP dependent on how well your class can stay alive as most classes have the ability to full heal after a burst hit when some one or npc finds there way though evasion blocks and invabitly that all classes have. Its if you get one shot or not that makes your class a glass build or not. The thing is if your class has high hp to start with you simply get "free" room to go more dmg vs the class with low hp who will need to be an "if hit goes down" build or must give up dmg to not be a one hit build.

Why not let low hp classes be rewarded for this risk?

See ELE forms and you will get my views.

<1

Comments

  • rng.1024rng.1024 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 10, 2019

    There are alot more factors at play than just power vs base health.

    The more fair option would be to f.ex increase base armor, and then scale it inversely with base health. This would mean low hp character can better negate a burst than a high hp character, who in turn has more health to sustain prolonged exposure to damage.

    What I mean by factors is how not all professions have equal access to power based weapon skills, high coefficients or active damage mitigation. What this means is basically with half the power removed, they will either not be able to kill anything no matter what, find ways to get perma mightstacks rendering the change moot or whittle you down anyways.

    What's important here is to separate that which is scaleable and that which isn't. If warrior can kill you with a 2 shot combo, increasing it to 4 doesn't necessarily mean you'll survive it any easier, it just means he has to work harder - which is starting to become a common theme of core builds f.ex. The point is that if you don't dodge that first cc it's over anyways, so any further nerfing will make no difference, especially as you will be just as squishy.

    This game is all about active mitigation at this point, 4-5 years ago numbers still could swing fights but not anymore with the powercreep. This is why we get the two camps of those who avoid getting hit by big skills and think the game is fine, and those that try to tank it and is annoyed by the damage. Notice how one is scaleable and the other is not.

  • Jski.6180Jski.6180 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @rng.1024 said:
    There are alot more factors at play than just power vs base health.

    The more fair option would be to f.ex increase base armor, and then scale it inversely with base health. This would mean low hp character can better negate a burst than a high hp character, who in turn has more health to sustain prolonged exposure to damage.

    What I mean by factors is how not all professions have equal access to power based weapon skills, high coefficients or active damage mitigation. What this means is basically with half the power removed, they will either not be able to kill anything no matter what, find ways to get perma mightstacks rendering the change moot or whittle you down anyways.

    What's important here is to separate that which is scaleable and that which isn't. If warrior can kill you with a 2 shot combo, increasing it to 4 doesn't necessarily mean you'll survive it any easier, it just means he has to work harder - which is starting to become a common theme of core builds f.ex. The point is that if you don't dodge that first cc it's over anyways, so any further nerfing will make no difference, especially as you will be just as squishy.

    This game is all about active mitigation at this point, 4-5 years ago numbers still could swing fights but not anymore with the powercreep. This is why we get the two camps of those who avoid getting hit by big skills and think the game is fine, and those that try to tank it and is annoyed by the damage. Notice how one is scaleable and the other is not.

    But why not let the lower hp class kill faster then the war class whom has high hp?

    As for coefficients it seems to over complex balancing when you can just standardize coefficients but have power very from class to class letting the player have much more control over there builds. Also 1 power for one class should be the same effect as another class or your always going to have massive imbalance.

    See ELE forms and you will get my views.

  • Jski.6180Jski.6180 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 11, 2019

    @otto.5684 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:
    Seems like in this game higher hp/sustain classes are allowed to have everything on top but low hp classes get mobility and that's it lmao and if u argue the lower hp classes should be better at anything else,even one thing over the higher hp/sustain classes the non low hp classes ralley to to say nerf the low hp class cuz they have mobility. It's a joke just like it's a joke how the devs have balanced this game.

    The philosophy of the original designs, low HP pool classes had other major advantages. Ele had high healing and good mobility. Thief had superior mobility. Guardian had great damage avoidance, through blocking and healing. Boons were also a major factor. Guardian and ele had relatively good access to boons that most other classes lacked. That was all nice and dandy in 2012.

    2015 started the power creep to damage with the patch that allowed using 3 full trait lines. And this is where we started to see cracks in this philosophy. HoT added to this issue. But PoF in particular made the logic HP pool non-existent.

    Quick look at heavy HP pool classes. With the exception of FB support, guardian has the least mobility of three classes. In the good old days that was balanced around guardian having better tools to avoid damage. But now, guardian is much less effective in damage avoidance than SB or herald. You might think cuz guardian is behind in mobility and damage avoidance then they would lead in CC to prevent opponents from dealing damage. And that is the area where guardian is the least effective class. Finally damage and healing. Sure, guardian does really well here, but the margins are too small to justify all the other short comings.

    I can do this for thief and ele, but it is really similar. The reasons why all low HP pool classes had the low HP pool is long gone, to the point that sometimes large HP pool class would lead in an area where the low HP class was designed with a low HP pool in result.

    HP pools need major revision.

    But high hp class even mid hp classes have high healing and high mobility. I am all for taking away war ability to Nike (a real build for the war class and name they call it) but i am not sure if that the best way of moving forward.

    Added note it use to be that trate lines where you got you hp and power but that was removed but with out a rebalnacing to the classes hp and power. The balancing ideals are left overs from that massive trate line update.

    See ELE forms and you will get my views.

  • TorQ.7041TorQ.7041 Member ✭✭✭

    Buff teef!

  • rng.1024rng.1024 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @rng.1024 said:
    There are alot more factors at play than just power vs base health.

    The more fair option would be to f.ex increase base armor, and then scale it inversely with base health. This would mean low hp character can better negate a burst than a high hp character, who in turn has more health to sustain prolonged exposure to damage.

    What I mean by factors is how not all professions have equal access to power based weapon skills, high coefficients or active damage mitigation. What this means is basically with half the power removed, they will either not be able to kill anything no matter what, find ways to get perma mightstacks rendering the change moot or whittle you down anyways.

    What's important here is to separate that which is scaleable and that which isn't. If warrior can kill you with a 2 shot combo, increasing it to 4 doesn't necessarily mean you'll survive it any easier, it just means he has to work harder - which is starting to become a common theme of core builds f.ex. The point is that if you don't dodge that first cc it's over anyways, so any further nerfing will make no difference, especially as you will be just as squishy.

    This game is all about active mitigation at this point, 4-5 years ago numbers still could swing fights but not anymore with the powercreep. This is why we get the two camps of those who avoid getting hit by big skills and think the game is fine, and those that try to tank it and is annoyed by the damage. Notice how one is scaleable and the other is not.

    But why not let the lower hp class kill faster then the war class whom has high hp?

    As for coefficients it seems to over complex balancing when you can just standardize coefficients but have power very from class to class letting the player have much more control over there builds. Also 1 power for one class should be the same effect as another class or your always going to have massive imbalance.

    Because the entire point of differing base health is to adjust time to kill to begin with - meaning warrior and necro are supposed to take a while to kill. The reason elementalist, thief and guardian have such a low healthpool, is to promote use of more hybrid amulets. You really want to give support guardian 9k more health? Or a FA ele who can burst from range more defense? Thief with mobility and stealth becoming 45% harder to pin down?

    I've been playing with the same idea, that we could uniform coefficients and weapon skill cooldowns for a more predictable outcome. But then let's look at warrior for example, who has quite the low attacks/s. Compared to mesmer, who has fairly high a/s the warrior would always struggle and you create favourable matchups - which is what the expansions were made to remove.

    At this point however, it's no longer a change we want to see implemented and a discussion of how we'd like it, in scope and complexity it has become a full rework which is either a pipedream or fit for gw3. The base health difference has been there since launch and I don't see it going anytime soon. It creates risk with using certain professions, diversifying amulets used and allow for multiple roles (with uniform values all would run zerker, if anyone could tank on node they would) which pretty much seems intended, and it gives flavour to the professions. But don't make the mistake of thinking it's the cause of the current balance issues, as it's quite far down the list showcased by how the core game was balanced before HoT.

  • rng.1024rng.1024 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @otto.5684 said:
    @rng.1024 If you think HP pools do not matter, next time you play guardian, thief or ele I want you to play without an HP amulet (support guardian does, but with other options that provide additional 5k hp). GL.

    Also, there is a strong correlation between performance and HP pools. Except FB support, neither of the low HP pool classes have meta builds. You could argue it is a coincidence, but I would argue that the loss of stats is the main issue these classes face.

    I come from the full zerk core era, where I mained thief. In both PvP and WvW. Right now I main elementalist, the squishiest profession in the game. Trust me I know exactly what an HP pool is worth.

    What are you talking about? Both those have meta builds (core thief and node-sustain Weaver in PvP), but if you talk WvW then it's like asking why rangers don't have a build for group play. Plus they wouldn't be alone as only Guardian/Necro/Scrapper is meta currently.

  • Jski.6180Jski.6180 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @rng.1024 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @rng.1024 said:
    There are alot more factors at play than just power vs base health.

    The more fair option would be to f.ex increase base armor, and then scale it inversely with base health. This would mean low hp character can better negate a burst than a high hp character, who in turn has more health to sustain prolonged exposure to damage.

    What I mean by factors is how not all professions have equal access to power based weapon skills, high coefficients or active damage mitigation. What this means is basically with half the power removed, they will either not be able to kill anything no matter what, find ways to get perma mightstacks rendering the change moot or whittle you down anyways.

    What's important here is to separate that which is scaleable and that which isn't. If warrior can kill you with a 2 shot combo, increasing it to 4 doesn't necessarily mean you'll survive it any easier, it just means he has to work harder - which is starting to become a common theme of core builds f.ex. The point is that if you don't dodge that first cc it's over anyways, so any further nerfing will make no difference, especially as you will be just as squishy.

    This game is all about active mitigation at this point, 4-5 years ago numbers still could swing fights but not anymore with the powercreep. This is why we get the two camps of those who avoid getting hit by big skills and think the game is fine, and those that try to tank it and is annoyed by the damage. Notice how one is scaleable and the other is not.

    But why not let the lower hp class kill faster then the war class whom has high hp?

    As for coefficients it seems to over complex balancing when you can just standardize coefficients but have power very from class to class letting the player have much more control over there builds. Also 1 power for one class should be the same effect as another class or your always going to have massive imbalance.

    Because the entire point of differing base health is to adjust time to kill to begin with - meaning warrior and necro are supposed to take a while to kill. The reason elementalist, thief and guardian have such a low healthpool, is to promote use of more hybrid amulets. You really want to give support guardian 9k more health? Or a FA ele who can burst from range more defense? Thief with mobility and stealth becoming 45% harder to pin down?

    I've been playing with the same idea, that we could uniform coefficients and weapon skill cooldowns for a more predictable outcome. But then let's look at warrior for example, who has quite the low attacks/s. Compared to mesmer, who has fairly high a/s the warrior would always struggle and you create favourable matchups - which is what the expansions were made to remove.

    At this point however, it's no longer a change we want to see implemented and a discussion of how we'd like it, in scope and complexity it has become a full rework which is either a pipedream or fit for gw3. The base health difference has been there since launch and I don't see it going anytime soon. It creates risk with using certain professions, diversifying amulets used and allow for multiple roles (with uniform values all would run zerker, if anyone could tank on node they would) which pretty much seems intended, and it gives flavour to the professions. But don't make the mistake of thinking it's the cause of the current balance issues, as it's quite far down the list showcased by how the core game was balanced before HoT.

    So the other classes cant use hybrid amulets? Should we lock amulets to classes? And there are builds for all classes in the game to be burstly its just some classes get "free" build in tanklyness to land that burst and not get one shot them self.

    The hp class balancing brakes down a lot in this game when you do look at classes who have high dmg build in to there effects but not the lowest hp but has def effect that makes it seems like they should be low hp classes such as mez.

    You just simply have classes who can run more dmg then others is what it comes down to purely because of there class having more hp.

    See ELE forms and you will get my views.

  • rng.1024rng.1024 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @rng.1024 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @rng.1024 said:
    There are alot more factors at play than just power vs base health.

    The more fair option would be to f.ex increase base armor, and then scale it inversely with base health. This would mean low hp character can better negate a burst than a high hp character, who in turn has more health to sustain prolonged exposure to damage.

    What I mean by factors is how not all professions have equal access to power based weapon skills, high coefficients or active damage mitigation. What this means is basically with half the power removed, they will either not be able to kill anything no matter what, find ways to get perma mightstacks rendering the change moot or whittle you down anyways.

    What's important here is to separate that which is scaleable and that which isn't. If warrior can kill you with a 2 shot combo, increasing it to 4 doesn't necessarily mean you'll survive it any easier, it just means he has to work harder - which is starting to become a common theme of core builds f.ex. The point is that if you don't dodge that first cc it's over anyways, so any further nerfing will make no difference, especially as you will be just as squishy.

    This game is all about active mitigation at this point, 4-5 years ago numbers still could swing fights but not anymore with the powercreep. This is why we get the two camps of those who avoid getting hit by big skills and think the game is fine, and those that try to tank it and is annoyed by the damage. Notice how one is scaleable and the other is not.

    But why not let the lower hp class kill faster then the war class whom has high hp?

    As for coefficients it seems to over complex balancing when you can just standardize coefficients but have power very from class to class letting the player have much more control over there builds. Also 1 power for one class should be the same effect as another class or your always going to have massive imbalance.

    Because the entire point of differing base health is to adjust time to kill to begin with - meaning warrior and necro are supposed to take a while to kill. The reason elementalist, thief and guardian have such a low healthpool, is to promote use of more hybrid amulets. You really want to give support guardian 9k more health? Or a FA ele who can burst from range more defense? Thief with mobility and stealth becoming 45% harder to pin down?

    I've been playing with the same idea, that we could uniform coefficients and weapon skill cooldowns for a more predictable outcome. But then let's look at warrior for example, who has quite the low attacks/s. Compared to mesmer, who has fairly high a/s the warrior would always struggle and you create favourable matchups - which is what the expansions were made to remove.

    At this point however, it's no longer a change we want to see implemented and a discussion of how we'd like it, in scope and complexity it has become a full rework which is either a pipedream or fit for gw3. The base health difference has been there since launch and I don't see it going anytime soon. It creates risk with using certain professions, diversifying amulets used and allow for multiple roles (with uniform values all would run zerker, if anyone could tank on node they would) which pretty much seems intended, and it gives flavour to the professions. But don't make the mistake of thinking it's the cause of the current balance issues, as it's quite far down the list showcased by how the core game was balanced before HoT.

    So the other classes cant use hybrid amulets? Should we lock amulets to classes? And there are builds for all classes in the game to be burstly its just some classes get "free" build in tanklyness to land that burst and not get one shot them self.

    The hp class balancing brakes down a lot in this game when you do look at classes who have high dmg build in to there effects but not the lowest hp but has def effect that makes it seems like they should be low hp classes such as mez.

    You just simply have classes who can run more dmg then others is what it comes down to purely because of there class having more hp.

    Easiest way to demonstrate is how a warrior won't be as effective as engi if both run celestial amulet - and they are designed that way. You can run any amulet, but that doesn't mean it's a good fit just like marauder on warrior is quite the waste.

    Yeah you get a free buid in there, but it's intended for them to take longer to kill, it's even reflected in traits and skill flavour - which is the point I've been trying to make all along. This in turn leads to low hp professions to build for added sustain while high hp professions turn more glassy.

    Yeah some can build for more damage, but stats are a minor component in this game when it comes to mitigation. You can build full tank and still go down eventually. In the end it comes down to time to kill, how you handle an outnumber and how much you can facetank - all decided by base hp.

  • Stand The Wall.6987Stand The Wall.6987 Member ✭✭✭✭

    low hp was fine until the xpacs hit... in which we saw ez 25 might and might mods, power/ precision/ ferocity trait boosts, insane coefficient boosts and damage % multipliers, what else... cc spam on steroids, god like sustain, condi clears and condi spam... all is lost.

    you don't know till you know, ya know.

  • Jski.6180Jski.6180 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @rng.1024 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @rng.1024 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @rng.1024 said:
    There are alot more factors at play than just power vs base health.

    The more fair option would be to f.ex increase base armor, and then scale it inversely with base health. This would mean low hp character can better negate a burst than a high hp character, who in turn has more health to sustain prolonged exposure to damage.

    What I mean by factors is how not all professions have equal access to power based weapon skills, high coefficients or active damage mitigation. What this means is basically with half the power removed, they will either not be able to kill anything no matter what, find ways to get perma mightstacks rendering the change moot or whittle you down anyways.

    What's important here is to separate that which is scaleable and that which isn't. If warrior can kill you with a 2 shot combo, increasing it to 4 doesn't necessarily mean you'll survive it any easier, it just means he has to work harder - which is starting to become a common theme of core builds f.ex. The point is that if you don't dodge that first cc it's over anyways, so any further nerfing will make no difference, especially as you will be just as squishy.

    This game is all about active mitigation at this point, 4-5 years ago numbers still could swing fights but not anymore with the powercreep. This is why we get the two camps of those who avoid getting hit by big skills and think the game is fine, and those that try to tank it and is annoyed by the damage. Notice how one is scaleable and the other is not.

    But why not let the lower hp class kill faster then the war class whom has high hp?

    As for coefficients it seems to over complex balancing when you can just standardize coefficients but have power very from class to class letting the player have much more control over there builds. Also 1 power for one class should be the same effect as another class or your always going to have massive imbalance.

    Because the entire point of differing base health is to adjust time to kill to begin with - meaning warrior and necro are supposed to take a while to kill. The reason elementalist, thief and guardian have such a low healthpool, is to promote use of more hybrid amulets. You really want to give support guardian 9k more health? Or a FA ele who can burst from range more defense? Thief with mobility and stealth becoming 45% harder to pin down?

    I've been playing with the same idea, that we could uniform coefficients and weapon skill cooldowns for a more predictable outcome. But then let's look at warrior for example, who has quite the low attacks/s. Compared to mesmer, who has fairly high a/s the warrior would always struggle and you create favourable matchups - which is what the expansions were made to remove.

    At this point however, it's no longer a change we want to see implemented and a discussion of how we'd like it, in scope and complexity it has become a full rework which is either a pipedream or fit for gw3. The base health difference has been there since launch and I don't see it going anytime soon. It creates risk with using certain professions, diversifying amulets used and allow for multiple roles (with uniform values all would run zerker, if anyone could tank on node they would) which pretty much seems intended, and it gives flavour to the professions. But don't make the mistake of thinking it's the cause of the current balance issues, as it's quite far down the list showcased by how the core game was balanced before HoT.

    So the other classes cant use hybrid amulets? Should we lock amulets to classes? And there are builds for all classes in the game to be burstly its just some classes get "free" build in tanklyness to land that burst and not get one shot them self.

    The hp class balancing brakes down a lot in this game when you do look at classes who have high dmg build in to there effects but not the lowest hp but has def effect that makes it seems like they should be low hp classes such as mez.

    You just simply have classes who can run more dmg then others is what it comes down to purely because of there class having more hp.

    Easiest way to demonstrate is how a warrior won't be as effective as engi if both run celestial amulet - and they are designed that way. You can run any amulet, but that doesn't mean it's a good fit just like marauder on warrior is quite the waste.

    Yeah you get a free buid in there, but it's intended for them to take longer to kill, it's even reflected in traits and skill flavour - which is the point I've been trying to make all along. This in turn leads to low hp professions to build for added sustain while high hp professions turn more glassy.

    Yeah some can build for more damage, but stats are a minor component in this game when it comes to mitigation. You can build full tank and still go down eventually. In the end it comes down to time to kill, how you handle an outnumber and how much you can facetank - all decided by base hp.

    Eng is a mid hp class so it too is part of the hp imbalance.

    See ELE forms and you will get my views.

  • otto.5684otto.5684 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @rng.1024 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @rng.1024 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @rng.1024 said:
    There are alot more factors at play than just power vs base health.

    The more fair option would be to f.ex increase base armor, and then scale it inversely with base health. This would mean low hp character can better negate a burst than a high hp character, who in turn has more health to sustain prolonged exposure to damage.

    What I mean by factors is how not all professions have equal access to power based weapon skills, high coefficients or active damage mitigation. What this means is basically with half the power removed, they will either not be able to kill anything no matter what, find ways to get perma mightstacks rendering the change moot or whittle you down anyways.

    What's important here is to separate that which is scaleable and that which isn't. If warrior can kill you with a 2 shot combo, increasing it to 4 doesn't necessarily mean you'll survive it any easier, it just means he has to work harder - which is starting to become a common theme of core builds f.ex. The point is that if you don't dodge that first cc it's over anyways, so any further nerfing will make no difference, especially as you will be just as squishy.

    This game is all about active mitigation at this point, 4-5 years ago numbers still could swing fights but not anymore with the powercreep. This is why we get the two camps of those who avoid getting hit by big skills and think the game is fine, and those that try to tank it and is annoyed by the damage. Notice how one is scaleable and the other is not.

    But why not let the lower hp class kill faster then the war class whom has high hp?

    As for coefficients it seems to over complex balancing when you can just standardize coefficients but have power very from class to class letting the player have much more control over there builds. Also 1 power for one class should be the same effect as another class or your always going to have massive imbalance.

    Because the entire point of differing base health is to adjust time to kill to begin with - meaning warrior and necro are supposed to take a while to kill. The reason elementalist, thief and guardian have such a low healthpool, is to promote use of more hybrid amulets. You really want to give support guardian 9k more health? Or a FA ele who can burst from range more defense? Thief with mobility and stealth becoming 45% harder to pin down?

    I've been playing with the same idea, that we could uniform coefficients and weapon skill cooldowns for a more predictable outcome. But then let's look at warrior for example, who has quite the low attacks/s. Compared to mesmer, who has fairly high a/s the warrior would always struggle and you create favourable matchups - which is what the expansions were made to remove.

    At this point however, it's no longer a change we want to see implemented and a discussion of how we'd like it, in scope and complexity it has become a full rework which is either a pipedream or fit for gw3. The base health difference has been there since launch and I don't see it going anytime soon. It creates risk with using certain professions, diversifying amulets used and allow for multiple roles (with uniform values all would run zerker, if anyone could tank on node they would) which pretty much seems intended, and it gives flavour to the professions. But don't make the mistake of thinking it's the cause of the current balance issues, as it's quite far down the list showcased by how the core game was balanced before HoT.

    So the other classes cant use hybrid amulets? Should we lock amulets to classes? And there are builds for all classes in the game to be burstly its just some classes get "free" build in tanklyness to land that burst and not get one shot them self.

    The hp class balancing brakes down a lot in this game when you do look at classes who have high dmg build in to there effects but not the lowest hp but has def effect that makes it seems like they should be low hp classes such as mez.

    You just simply have classes who can run more dmg then others is what it comes down to purely because of there class having more hp.

    Easiest way to demonstrate is how a warrior won't be as effective as engi if both run celestial amulet - and they are designed that way. You can run any amulet, but that doesn't mean it's a good fit just like marauder on warrior is quite the waste.

    Yeah you get a free buid in there, but it's intended for them to take longer to kill, it's even reflected in traits and skill flavour - which is the point I've been trying to make all along. This in turn leads to low hp professions to build for added sustain while high hp professions turn more glassy.

    Yeah some can build for more damage, but stats are a minor component in this game when it comes to mitigation. You can build full tank and still go down eventually. In the end it comes down to time to kill, how you handle an outnumber and how much you can facetank - all decided by base hp.

    Since stats are minor component in the game, as you mentioned, I want high HP pool for guardian, ele and thief. After all, it does not matter. Does it? DOES IT?

  • rng.1024rng.1024 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @otto.5684 said:

    @rng.1024 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @rng.1024 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @rng.1024 said:
    There are alot more factors at play than just power vs base health.

    The more fair option would be to f.ex increase base armor, and then scale it inversely with base health. This would mean low hp character can better negate a burst than a high hp character, who in turn has more health to sustain prolonged exposure to damage.

    What I mean by factors is how not all professions have equal access to power based weapon skills, high coefficients or active damage mitigation. What this means is basically with half the power removed, they will either not be able to kill anything no matter what, find ways to get perma mightstacks rendering the change moot or whittle you down anyways.

    What's important here is to separate that which is scaleable and that which isn't. If warrior can kill you with a 2 shot combo, increasing it to 4 doesn't necessarily mean you'll survive it any easier, it just means he has to work harder - which is starting to become a common theme of core builds f.ex. The point is that if you don't dodge that first cc it's over anyways, so any further nerfing will make no difference, especially as you will be just as squishy.

    This game is all about active mitigation at this point, 4-5 years ago numbers still could swing fights but not anymore with the powercreep. This is why we get the two camps of those who avoid getting hit by big skills and think the game is fine, and those that try to tank it and is annoyed by the damage. Notice how one is scaleable and the other is not.

    But why not let the lower hp class kill faster then the war class whom has high hp?

    As for coefficients it seems to over complex balancing when you can just standardize coefficients but have power very from class to class letting the player have much more control over there builds. Also 1 power for one class should be the same effect as another class or your always going to have massive imbalance.

    Because the entire point of differing base health is to adjust time to kill to begin with - meaning warrior and necro are supposed to take a while to kill. The reason elementalist, thief and guardian have such a low healthpool, is to promote use of more hybrid amulets. You really want to give support guardian 9k more health? Or a FA ele who can burst from range more defense? Thief with mobility and stealth becoming 45% harder to pin down?

    I've been playing with the same idea, that we could uniform coefficients and weapon skill cooldowns for a more predictable outcome. But then let's look at warrior for example, who has quite the low attacks/s. Compared to mesmer, who has fairly high a/s the warrior would always struggle and you create favourable matchups - which is what the expansions were made to remove.

    At this point however, it's no longer a change we want to see implemented and a discussion of how we'd like it, in scope and complexity it has become a full rework which is either a pipedream or fit for gw3. The base health difference has been there since launch and I don't see it going anytime soon. It creates risk with using certain professions, diversifying amulets used and allow for multiple roles (with uniform values all would run zerker, if anyone could tank on node they would) which pretty much seems intended, and it gives flavour to the professions. But don't make the mistake of thinking it's the cause of the current balance issues, as it's quite far down the list showcased by how the core game was balanced before HoT.

    So the other classes cant use hybrid amulets? Should we lock amulets to classes? And there are builds for all classes in the game to be burstly its just some classes get "free" build in tanklyness to land that burst and not get one shot them self.

    The hp class balancing brakes down a lot in this game when you do look at classes who have high dmg build in to there effects but not the lowest hp but has def effect that makes it seems like they should be low hp classes such as mez.

    You just simply have classes who can run more dmg then others is what it comes down to purely because of there class having more hp.

    Easiest way to demonstrate is how a warrior won't be as effective as engi if both run celestial amulet - and they are designed that way. You can run any amulet, but that doesn't mean it's a good fit just like marauder on warrior is quite the waste.

    Yeah you get a free buid in there, but it's intended for them to take longer to kill, it's even reflected in traits and skill flavour - which is the point I've been trying to make all along. This in turn leads to low hp professions to build for added sustain while high hp professions turn more glassy.

    Yeah some can build for more damage, but stats are a minor component in this game when it comes to mitigation. You can build full tank and still go down eventually. In the end it comes down to time to kill, how you handle an outnumber and how much you can facetank - all decided by base hp.

    Since stats are minor component in the game, as you mentioned, I want high HP pool for guardian, ele and thief. After all, it does not matter. Does it? DOES IT?

    Hehe, stats which need to be invested in are alot different from their base values, of which only base health and armor is affected between different professions. Good effort though :p

  • rng.1024rng.1024 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @rng.1024 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @rng.1024 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @rng.1024 said:
    There are alot more factors at play than just power vs base health.

    The more fair option would be to f.ex increase base armor, and then scale it inversely with base health. This would mean low hp character can better negate a burst than a high hp character, who in turn has more health to sustain prolonged exposure to damage.

    What I mean by factors is how not all professions have equal access to power based weapon skills, high coefficients or active damage mitigation. What this means is basically with half the power removed, they will either not be able to kill anything no matter what, find ways to get perma mightstacks rendering the change moot or whittle you down anyways.

    What's important here is to separate that which is scaleable and that which isn't. If warrior can kill you with a 2 shot combo, increasing it to 4 doesn't necessarily mean you'll survive it any easier, it just means he has to work harder - which is starting to become a common theme of core builds f.ex. The point is that if you don't dodge that first cc it's over anyways, so any further nerfing will make no difference, especially as you will be just as squishy.

    This game is all about active mitigation at this point, 4-5 years ago numbers still could swing fights but not anymore with the powercreep. This is why we get the two camps of those who avoid getting hit by big skills and think the game is fine, and those that try to tank it and is annoyed by the damage. Notice how one is scaleable and the other is not.

    But why not let the lower hp class kill faster then the war class whom has high hp?

    As for coefficients it seems to over complex balancing when you can just standardize coefficients but have power very from class to class letting the player have much more control over there builds. Also 1 power for one class should be the same effect as another class or your always going to have massive imbalance.

    Because the entire point of differing base health is to adjust time to kill to begin with - meaning warrior and necro are supposed to take a while to kill. The reason elementalist, thief and guardian have such a low healthpool, is to promote use of more hybrid amulets. You really want to give support guardian 9k more health? Or a FA ele who can burst from range more defense? Thief with mobility and stealth becoming 45% harder to pin down?

    I've been playing with the same idea, that we could uniform coefficients and weapon skill cooldowns for a more predictable outcome. But then let's look at warrior for example, who has quite the low attacks/s. Compared to mesmer, who has fairly high a/s the warrior would always struggle and you create favourable matchups - which is what the expansions were made to remove.

    At this point however, it's no longer a change we want to see implemented and a discussion of how we'd like it, in scope and complexity it has become a full rework which is either a pipedream or fit for gw3. The base health difference has been there since launch and I don't see it going anytime soon. It creates risk with using certain professions, diversifying amulets used and allow for multiple roles (with uniform values all would run zerker, if anyone could tank on node they would) which pretty much seems intended, and it gives flavour to the professions. But don't make the mistake of thinking it's the cause of the current balance issues, as it's quite far down the list showcased by how the core game was balanced before HoT.

    So the other classes cant use hybrid amulets? Should we lock amulets to classes? And there are builds for all classes in the game to be burstly its just some classes get "free" build in tanklyness to land that burst and not get one shot them self.

    The hp class balancing brakes down a lot in this game when you do look at classes who have high dmg build in to there effects but not the lowest hp but has def effect that makes it seems like they should be low hp classes such as mez.

    You just simply have classes who can run more dmg then others is what it comes down to purely because of there class having more hp.

    Easiest way to demonstrate is how a warrior won't be as effective as engi if both run celestial amulet - and they are designed that way. You can run any amulet, but that doesn't mean it's a good fit just like marauder on warrior is quite the waste.

    Yeah you get a free buid in there, but it's intended for them to take longer to kill, it's even reflected in traits and skill flavour - which is the point I've been trying to make all along. This in turn leads to low hp professions to build for added sustain while high hp professions turn more glassy.

    Yeah some can build for more damage, but stats are a minor component in this game when it comes to mitigation. You can build full tank and still go down eventually. In the end it comes down to time to kill, how you handle an outnumber and how much you can facetank - all decided by base hp.

    Eng is a mid hp class so it too is part of the hp imbalance.

    You can use any base hp variant you want. You can swap engi for necro in the prevous example, or compare Guardian to Mesmer (more healing oriented), the result is the same either way - that some professions benefit more from certain stats than others, whereof base health is a major deciding factor for the defensive ones. That's without even taking into account how condition damage affects different health values, scaling coefficients or viability as a whole.

    But to be fair I get your argument because at a glance it seems unnecessary, however once you start taking traits and available skill types into the equation it starts to spin a out of control. T

    hen those two would be the only deciding factor of a builds sustain. The bright side here is amulet choice would matter more since they are no longer needed to cover a deficit, but this too would lead to a locked meta where everyone use zerker f.ex - simply because else you can't kill the squishier professions anymore. A druid running permaprotection would now have direct 33% advantage over a thief at all times, support specs would contribute even less to overall pressure and all of a sudden condition builds require 2x the effort to bring down 7/9 professions, any healing skill would be reduced in efficacy by 50% on average and the balance would more than ever favor the profession who has access to innate boons and effects - something base health is the only prohibiting factor of as it currently stands.

    You say some professions get a free build. Why doesn't everyone play them then? Because of roles that need to be filled. What decides your role? Base health mostly. Without it we would enter the tankiest node-sustain meta you can imagine, way worse than in the HoT days where people cap a node and stay there until the game times out. The winners will be the ones who get the first and only kill.

  • otto.5684otto.5684 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @rng.1024 said:

    @otto.5684 said:

    @rng.1024 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @rng.1024 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @rng.1024 said:
    There are alot more factors at play than just power vs base health.

    The more fair option would be to f.ex increase base armor, and then scale it inversely with base health. This would mean low hp character can better negate a burst than a high hp character, who in turn has more health to sustain prolonged exposure to damage.

    What I mean by factors is how not all professions have equal access to power based weapon skills, high coefficients or active damage mitigation. What this means is basically with half the power removed, they will either not be able to kill anything no matter what, find ways to get perma mightstacks rendering the change moot or whittle you down anyways.

    What's important here is to separate that which is scaleable and that which isn't. If warrior can kill you with a 2 shot combo, increasing it to 4 doesn't necessarily mean you'll survive it any easier, it just means he has to work harder - which is starting to become a common theme of core builds f.ex. The point is that if you don't dodge that first cc it's over anyways, so any further nerfing will make no difference, especially as you will be just as squishy.

    This game is all about active mitigation at this point, 4-5 years ago numbers still could swing fights but not anymore with the powercreep. This is why we get the two camps of those who avoid getting hit by big skills and think the game is fine, and those that try to tank it and is annoyed by the damage. Notice how one is scaleable and the other is not.

    But why not let the lower hp class kill faster then the war class whom has high hp?

    As for coefficients it seems to over complex balancing when you can just standardize coefficients but have power very from class to class letting the player have much more control over there builds. Also 1 power for one class should be the same effect as another class or your always going to have massive imbalance.

    Because the entire point of differing base health is to adjust time to kill to begin with - meaning warrior and necro are supposed to take a while to kill. The reason elementalist, thief and guardian have such a low healthpool, is to promote use of more hybrid amulets. You really want to give support guardian 9k more health? Or a FA ele who can burst from range more defense? Thief with mobility and stealth becoming 45% harder to pin down?

    I've been playing with the same idea, that we could uniform coefficients and weapon skill cooldowns for a more predictable outcome. But then let's look at warrior for example, who has quite the low attacks/s. Compared to mesmer, who has fairly high a/s the warrior would always struggle and you create favourable matchups - which is what the expansions were made to remove.

    At this point however, it's no longer a change we want to see implemented and a discussion of how we'd like it, in scope and complexity it has become a full rework which is either a pipedream or fit for gw3. The base health difference has been there since launch and I don't see it going anytime soon. It creates risk with using certain professions, diversifying amulets used and allow for multiple roles (with uniform values all would run zerker, if anyone could tank on node they would) which pretty much seems intended, and it gives flavour to the professions. But don't make the mistake of thinking it's the cause of the current balance issues, as it's quite far down the list showcased by how the core game was balanced before HoT.

    So the other classes cant use hybrid amulets? Should we lock amulets to classes? And there are builds for all classes in the game to be burstly its just some classes get "free" build in tanklyness to land that burst and not get one shot them self.

    The hp class balancing brakes down a lot in this game when you do look at classes who have high dmg build in to there effects but not the lowest hp but has def effect that makes it seems like they should be low hp classes such as mez.

    You just simply have classes who can run more dmg then others is what it comes down to purely because of there class having more hp.

    Easiest way to demonstrate is how a warrior won't be as effective as engi if both run celestial amulet - and they are designed that way. You can run any amulet, but that doesn't mean it's a good fit just like marauder on warrior is quite the waste.

    Yeah you get a free buid in there, but it's intended for them to take longer to kill, it's even reflected in traits and skill flavour - which is the point I've been trying to make all along. This in turn leads to low hp professions to build for added sustain while high hp professions turn more glassy.

    Yeah some can build for more damage, but stats are a minor component in this game when it comes to mitigation. You can build full tank and still go down eventually. In the end it comes down to time to kill, how you handle an outnumber and how much you can facetank - all decided by base hp.

    Since stats are minor component in the game, as you mentioned, I want high HP pool for guardian, ele and thief. After all, it does not matter. Does it? DOES IT?

    Hehe, stats which need to be invested in are alot different from their base values, of which only base health and armor is affected between different professions. Good effort though :p

    Is this English? Cuz not one sentence here is coherent or makes sense. Try agin buddy. Please In English next time

  • rng.1024rng.1024 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @otto.5684 said:

    @rng.1024 said:

    @otto.5684 said:

    @rng.1024 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @rng.1024 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @rng.1024 said:
    There are alot more factors at play than just power vs base health.

    The more fair option would be to f.ex increase base armor, and then scale it inversely with base health. This would mean low hp character can better negate a burst than a high hp character, who in turn has more health to sustain prolonged exposure to damage.

    What I mean by factors is how not all professions have equal access to power based weapon skills, high coefficients or active damage mitigation. What this means is basically with half the power removed, they will either not be able to kill anything no matter what, find ways to get perma mightstacks rendering the change moot or whittle you down anyways.

    What's important here is to separate that which is scaleable and that which isn't. If warrior can kill you with a 2 shot combo, increasing it to 4 doesn't necessarily mean you'll survive it any easier, it just means he has to work harder - which is starting to become a common theme of core builds f.ex. The point is that if you don't dodge that first cc it's over anyways, so any further nerfing will make no difference, especially as you will be just as squishy.

    This game is all about active mitigation at this point, 4-5 years ago numbers still could swing fights but not anymore with the powercreep. This is why we get the two camps of those who avoid getting hit by big skills and think the game is fine, and those that try to tank it and is annoyed by the damage. Notice how one is scaleable and the other is not.

    But why not let the lower hp class kill faster then the war class whom has high hp?

    As for coefficients it seems to over complex balancing when you can just standardize coefficients but have power very from class to class letting the player have much more control over there builds. Also 1 power for one class should be the same effect as another class or your always going to have massive imbalance.

    Because the entire point of differing base health is to adjust time to kill to begin with - meaning warrior and necro are supposed to take a while to kill. The reason elementalist, thief and guardian have such a low healthpool, is to promote use of more hybrid amulets. You really want to give support guardian 9k more health? Or a FA ele who can burst from range more defense? Thief with mobility and stealth becoming 45% harder to pin down?

    I've been playing with the same idea, that we could uniform coefficients and weapon skill cooldowns for a more predictable outcome. But then let's look at warrior for example, who has quite the low attacks/s. Compared to mesmer, who has fairly high a/s the warrior would always struggle and you create favourable matchups - which is what the expansions were made to remove.

    At this point however, it's no longer a change we want to see implemented and a discussion of how we'd like it, in scope and complexity it has become a full rework which is either a pipedream or fit for gw3. The base health difference has been there since launch and I don't see it going anytime soon. It creates risk with using certain professions, diversifying amulets used and allow for multiple roles (with uniform values all would run zerker, if anyone could tank on node they would) which pretty much seems intended, and it gives flavour to the professions. But don't make the mistake of thinking it's the cause of the current balance issues, as it's quite far down the list showcased by how the core game was balanced before HoT.

    So the other classes cant use hybrid amulets? Should we lock amulets to classes? And there are builds for all classes in the game to be burstly its just some classes get "free" build in tanklyness to land that burst and not get one shot them self.

    The hp class balancing brakes down a lot in this game when you do look at classes who have high dmg build in to there effects but not the lowest hp but has def effect that makes it seems like they should be low hp classes such as mez.

    You just simply have classes who can run more dmg then others is what it comes down to purely because of there class having more hp.

    Easiest way to demonstrate is how a warrior won't be as effective as engi if both run celestial amulet - and they are designed that way. You can run any amulet, but that doesn't mean it's a good fit just like marauder on warrior is quite the waste.

    Yeah you get a free buid in there, but it's intended for them to take longer to kill, it's even reflected in traits and skill flavour - which is the point I've been trying to make all along. This in turn leads to low hp professions to build for added sustain while high hp professions turn more glassy.

    Yeah some can build for more damage, but stats are a minor component in this game when it comes to mitigation. You can build full tank and still go down eventually. In the end it comes down to time to kill, how you handle an outnumber and how much you can facetank - all decided by base hp.

    Since stats are minor component in the game, as you mentioned, I want high HP pool for guardian, ele and thief. After all, it does not matter. Does it? DOES IT?

    Hehe, stats which need to be invested in are alot different from their base values, of which only base health and armor is affected between different professions. Good effort though :p

    Is this English? Cuz not one sentence here is coherent or makes sense. Try agin buddy. Please In English next time

    Nah, I'm good ;) You can safely ignore it if you are having issues.

  • Nimon.7840Nimon.7840 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 12, 2019

    @Jski.6180 said:
    If anet must have class base hp balancing (some classes simply have more hp because they are one class or another) why not have power base work the same way?

    This game is very much HP dependent on how well your class can stay alive as most classes have the ability to full heal after a burst hit when some one or npc finds there way though evasion blocks and invabitly that all classes have. Its if you get one shot or not that makes your class a glass build or not. The thing is if your class has high hp to start with you simply get "free" room to go more dmg vs the class with low hp who will need to be an "if hit goes down" build or must give up dmg to not be a one hit build.

    Why not let low hp classes be rewarded for this risk?

    What risk?
    Low hp classes have a lot of evades or blocks or general mobility.

    The only class that would get hit and nerfed super hard by this would be necro that has no defenses other than his healthbar (and his "second health bar" that isn't a health bar because it degenerates while infight.

    If you'd do this you would also have to keep different armor value from different armor classes in mind.

    So guard would stay the same as it has heavy armor but low health
    Necro would stay the same: light armor but high health
    Warrior would be nerfed, high health, heavy armor
    Ele would be buffed, low health, light armor.

    Not a very well thought post.

    @rng.1024 and @Jski.6180
    But back to blocks and so on. Would ele then be nerfed because it has a lot of evades? And necro be buffed because it doesn't have a single block or dodge?

    Blocks/invuln and evades provide infinite dmg reduction while health doesn't

    But please, before making such suggestions, please use your brain and consider, what effect such changes would have for all classes!

  • otto.5684otto.5684 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @rng.1024 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @rng.1024 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @rng.1024 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @rng.1024 said:
    There are alot more factors at play than just power vs base health.

    The more fair option would be to f.ex increase base armor, and then scale it inversely with base health. This would mean low hp character can better negate a burst than a high hp character, who in turn has more health to sustain prolonged exposure to damage.

    What I mean by factors is how not all professions have equal access to power based weapon skills, high coefficients or active damage mitigation. What this means is basically with half the power removed, they will either not be able to kill anything no matter what, find ways to get perma mightstacks rendering the change moot or whittle you down anyways.

    What's important here is to separate that which is scaleable and that which isn't. If warrior can kill you with a 2 shot combo, increasing it to 4 doesn't necessarily mean you'll survive it any easier, it just means he has to work harder - which is starting to become a common theme of core builds f.ex. The point is that if you don't dodge that first cc it's over anyways, so any further nerfing will make no difference, especially as you will be just as squishy.

    This game is all about active mitigation at this point, 4-5 years ago numbers still could swing fights but not anymore with the powercreep. This is why we get the two camps of those who avoid getting hit by big skills and think the game is fine, and those that try to tank it and is annoyed by the damage. Notice how one is scaleable and the other is not.

    But why not let the lower hp class kill faster then the war class whom has high hp?

    As for coefficients it seems to over complex balancing when you can just standardize coefficients but have power very from class to class letting the player have much more control over there builds. Also 1 power for one class should be the same effect as another class or your always going to have massive imbalance.

    Because the entire point of differing base health is to adjust time to kill to begin with - meaning warrior and necro are supposed to take a while to kill. The reason elementalist, thief and guardian have such a low healthpool, is to promote use of more hybrid amulets. You really want to give support guardian 9k more health? Or a FA ele who can burst from range more defense? Thief with mobility and stealth becoming 45% harder to pin down?

    I've been playing with the same idea, that we could uniform coefficients and weapon skill cooldowns for a more predictable outcome. But then let's look at warrior for example, who has quite the low attacks/s. Compared to mesmer, who has fairly high a/s the warrior would always struggle and you create favourable matchups - which is what the expansions were made to remove.

    At this point however, it's no longer a change we want to see implemented and a discussion of how we'd like it, in scope and complexity it has become a full rework which is either a pipedream or fit for gw3. The base health difference has been there since launch and I don't see it going anytime soon. It creates risk with using certain professions, diversifying amulets used and allow for multiple roles (with uniform values all would run zerker, if anyone could tank on node they would) which pretty much seems intended, and it gives flavour to the professions. But don't make the mistake of thinking it's the cause of the current balance issues, as it's quite far down the list showcased by how the core game was balanced before HoT.

    So the other classes cant use hybrid amulets? Should we lock amulets to classes? And there are builds for all classes in the game to be burstly its just some classes get "free" build in tanklyness to land that burst and not get one shot them self.

    The hp class balancing brakes down a lot in this game when you do look at classes who have high dmg build in to there effects but not the lowest hp but has def effect that makes it seems like they should be low hp classes such as mez.

    You just simply have classes who can run more dmg then others is what it comes down to purely because of there class having more hp.

    Easiest way to demonstrate is how a warrior won't be as effective as engi if both run celestial amulet - and they are designed that way. You can run any amulet, but that doesn't mean it's a good fit just like marauder on warrior is quite the waste.

    Yeah you get a free buid in there, but it's intended for them to take longer to kill, it's even reflected in traits and skill flavour - which is the point I've been trying to make all along. This in turn leads to low hp professions to build for added sustain while high hp professions turn more glassy.

    Yeah some can build for more damage, but stats are a minor component in this game when it comes to mitigation. You can build full tank and still go down eventually. In the end it comes down to time to kill, how you handle an outnumber and how much you can facetank - all decided by base hp.

    Eng is a mid hp class so it too is part of the hp imbalance.

    You can use any base hp variant you want. You can swap engi for necro in the prevous example, or compare Guardian to Mesmer (more healing oriented), the result is the same either way - that some professions benefit more from certain stats than others, whereof base health is a major deciding factor for the defensive ones. That's without even taking into account how condition damage affects different health values, scaling coefficients or viability as a whole.

    But to be fair I get your argument because at a glance it seems unnecessary, however once you start taking traits and available skill types into the equation it starts to spin a out of control. T

    hen those two would be the only deciding factor of a builds sustain. The bright side here is amulet choice would matter more since they are no longer needed to cover a deficit, but this too would lead to a locked meta where everyone use zerker f.ex - simply because else you can't kill the squishier professions anymore. A druid running permaprotection would now have direct 33% advantage over a thief at all times, support specs would contribute even less to overall pressure and all of a sudden condition builds require 2x the effort to bring down 7/9 professions, any healing skill would be reduced in efficacy by 50% on average and the balance would more than ever favor the profession who has access to innate boons and effects - something base health is the only prohibiting factor of as it currently stands.

    You say some professions get a free build. Why doesn't everyone play them then? Because of roles that need to be filled. What decides your role? Base health mostly. Without it we would enter the tankiest node-sustain meta you can imagine, way worse than in the HoT days where people cap a node and stay there until the game times out. The winners will be the ones who get the first and only kill.

    So you can write coherent stuff :p

    First, you say everyone would use zerker, but currently no one does. Zerker, sinister, diviner, assassin and viper are amulets that could be an option for some builds, some of which are currently under performing, like most of thief builds.

    Second, "balance would more than ever favor the profession who has access to innate boons and effects," compared to.. now?! You know there is a reason FB, holo, scrapper and soul beast dominate sPvP. All these can stack a significant amount of boons. This problem is not connected to HP pools. It is an independent issue. It needs to be addressed, but it is not caused by current HP pools and should not be a gating for other changes.

    Lastly, "Base health mostly. Without it we would enter the tankiest node-sustain meta." This goes directly against your first argument. If everyone is running highest damage amulets (which no one currently does) then why would we have the tankiest meta?! Yes, I could run demolisher on guardian, but thief, Mesmer and rev will run bersker. We will have more options across the board.

    In addition, changing HP pools will not be done in a vacuum. There will be other adjustments. Cuz a build like FB support will be ridiculous with large HP pool (even more ridiculous than it currently is). So cutting down FB sustain will be necessary (even without increasing HP pools..). But you would see more FB dps builds and more DH and core guardian builds, which are dead, as balance currently stands. And that is the point. The original purpose of HP pools no longer exists, and it currently limits build diversity significantly.

    No one expects this to be easy, or not require time investment. It comes down to devs moving their lazy butts to ensure we have more diversity across the board, instead of barely having 7-8 competitive builds. PoF has kitten balance in so many ways, and drastic measures need to be taken to regain balance and build diversity.

  • Jski.6180Jski.6180 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 12, 2019

    @rng.1024 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @rng.1024 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @rng.1024 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @rng.1024 said:
    There are alot more factors at play than just power vs base health.

    The more fair option would be to f.ex increase base armor, and then scale it inversely with base health. This would mean low hp character can better negate a burst than a high hp character, who in turn has more health to sustain prolonged exposure to damage.

    What I mean by factors is how not all professions have equal access to power based weapon skills, high coefficients or active damage mitigation. What this means is basically with half the power removed, they will either not be able to kill anything no matter what, find ways to get perma mightstacks rendering the change moot or whittle you down anyways.

    What's important here is to separate that which is scaleable and that which isn't. If warrior can kill you with a 2 shot combo, increasing it to 4 doesn't necessarily mean you'll survive it any easier, it just means he has to work harder - which is starting to become a common theme of core builds f.ex. The point is that if you don't dodge that first cc it's over anyways, so any further nerfing will make no difference, especially as you will be just as squishy.

    This game is all about active mitigation at this point, 4-5 years ago numbers still could swing fights but not anymore with the powercreep. This is why we get the two camps of those who avoid getting hit by big skills and think the game is fine, and those that try to tank it and is annoyed by the damage. Notice how one is scaleable and the other is not.

    But why not let the lower hp class kill faster then the war class whom has high hp?

    As for coefficients it seems to over complex balancing when you can just standardize coefficients but have power very from class to class letting the player have much more control over there builds. Also 1 power for one class should be the same effect as another class or your always going to have massive imbalance.

    Because the entire point of differing base health is to adjust time to kill to begin with - meaning warrior and necro are supposed to take a while to kill. The reason elementalist, thief and guardian have such a low healthpool, is to promote use of more hybrid amulets. You really want to give support guardian 9k more health? Or a FA ele who can burst from range more defense? Thief with mobility and stealth becoming 45% harder to pin down?

    I've been playing with the same idea, that we could uniform coefficients and weapon skill cooldowns for a more predictable outcome. But then let's look at warrior for example, who has quite the low attacks/s. Compared to mesmer, who has fairly high a/s the warrior would always struggle and you create favourable matchups - which is what the expansions were made to remove.

    At this point however, it's no longer a change we want to see implemented and a discussion of how we'd like it, in scope and complexity it has become a full rework which is either a pipedream or fit for gw3. The base health difference has been there since launch and I don't see it going anytime soon. It creates risk with using certain professions, diversifying amulets used and allow for multiple roles (with uniform values all would run zerker, if anyone could tank on node they would) which pretty much seems intended, and it gives flavour to the professions. But don't make the mistake of thinking it's the cause of the current balance issues, as it's quite far down the list showcased by how the core game was balanced before HoT.

    So the other classes cant use hybrid amulets? Should we lock amulets to classes? And there are builds for all classes in the game to be burstly its just some classes get "free" build in tanklyness to land that burst and not get one shot them self.

    The hp class balancing brakes down a lot in this game when you do look at classes who have high dmg build in to there effects but not the lowest hp but has def effect that makes it seems like they should be low hp classes such as mez.

    You just simply have classes who can run more dmg then others is what it comes down to purely because of there class having more hp.

    Easiest way to demonstrate is how a warrior won't be as effective as engi if both run celestial amulet - and they are designed that way. You can run any amulet, but that doesn't mean it's a good fit just like marauder on warrior is quite the waste.

    Yeah you get a free buid in there, but it's intended for them to take longer to kill, it's even reflected in traits and skill flavour - which is the point I've been trying to make all along. This in turn leads to low hp professions to build for added sustain while high hp professions turn more glassy.

    Yeah some can build for more damage, but stats are a minor component in this game when it comes to mitigation. You can build full tank and still go down eventually. In the end it comes down to time to kill, how you handle an outnumber and how much you can facetank - all decided by base hp.

    Eng is a mid hp class so it too is part of the hp imbalance.

    You can use any base hp variant you want. You can swap engi for necro in the prevous example, or compare Guardian to Mesmer (more healing oriented), the result is the same either way - that some professions benefit more from certain stats than others, whereof base health is a major deciding factor for the defensive ones. That's without even taking into account how condition damage affects different health values, scaling coefficients or viability as a whole.

    But to be fair I get your argument because at a glance it seems unnecessary, however once you start taking traits and available skill types into the equation it starts to spin a out of control. T

    hen those two would be the only deciding factor of a builds sustain. The bright side here is amulet choice would matter more since they are no longer needed to cover a deficit, but this too would lead to a locked meta where everyone use zerker f.ex - simply because else you can't kill the squishier professions anymore. A druid running permaprotection would now have direct 33% advantage over a thief at all times, support specs would contribute even less to overall pressure and all of a sudden condition builds require 2x the effort to bring down 7/9 professions, any healing skill would be reduced in efficacy by 50% on average and the balance would more than ever favor the profession who has access to innate boons and effects - something base health is the only prohibiting factor of as it currently stands.

    You say some professions get a free build. Why doesn't everyone play them then? Because of roles that need to be filled. What decides your role? Base health mostly. Without it we would enter the tankiest node-sustain meta you can imagine, way worse than in the HoT days where people cap a node and stay there until the game times out. The winners will be the ones who get the first and only kill.

    So is hp the balancing tool for def or not then? Is it hp or is it def skills because all classes have def skill in one way or another.

    At the end of the day if you have more hp you can build higher dmg every class has there means of saying alive for a moment but your still going to take dmg from reaction effect like retal burning on blocks etc.. things that you cant build for but for say your hp.

    An ele thf and gurd should do more dmg because they lack hp that say a war has so these classes most often build with some def in mind. Classes like necro war and ranger can build with raw dmg in mind because they get "free" hp. You can say the same for mez eng and rev but its not as bad from the hp point of view.

    As long as only def effect of hp very from class to class the game will always be not balanced.

    The more free hp a class has the more zerker meta you will see that why the thing back in the day every one was able to build ok hp and def because of how trait lines worked. If any thing the high hp classes are still stuck in the zerker meta the other classes have to build with hp or some other type of def combo in mind.

    @Nimon.7840 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:
    If anet must have class base hp balancing (some classes simply have more hp because they are one class or another) why not have power base work the same way?

    This game is very much HP dependent on how well your class can stay alive as most classes have the ability to full heal after a burst hit when some one or npc finds there way though evasion blocks and invabitly that all classes have. Its if you get one shot or not that makes your class a glass build or not. The thing is if your class has high hp to start with you simply get "free" room to go more dmg vs the class with low hp who will need to be an "if hit goes down" build or must give up dmg to not be a one hit build.

    Why not let low hp classes be rewarded for this risk?

    What risk?
    Low hp classes have a lot of evades or blocks or general mobility.

    The only class that would get hit and nerfed super hard by this would be necro that has no defenses other than his healthbar (and his "second health bar" that isn't a health bar because it degenerates while infight.

    If you'd do this you would also have to keep different armor value from different armor classes in mind.

    So guard would stay the same as it has heavy armor but low health
    Necro would stay the same: light armor but high health
    Warrior would be nerfed, high health, heavy armor
    Ele would be buffed, low health, light armor.

    Not a very well thought post.

    @rng.1024 and @Jski.6180
    But back to blocks and so on. Would ele then be nerfed because it has a lot of evades? And necro be buffed because it doesn't have a single block or dodge?

    Blocks/invuln and evades provide infinite dmg reduction while health doesn't

    But please, before making such suggestions, please use your brain and consider, what effect such changes would have for all classes!

    I mean war has blocks and evasion so its not a low hp class vs high hp class type of balancing point.

    See ELE forms and you will get my views.

  • rng.1024rng.1024 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @otto.5684 said:

    @rng.1024 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @rng.1024 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @rng.1024 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @rng.1024 said:
    There are alot more factors at play than just power vs base health.

    The more fair option would be to f.ex increase base armor, and then scale it inversely with base health. This would mean low hp character can better negate a burst than a high hp character, who in turn has more health to sustain prolonged exposure to damage.

    What I mean by factors is how not all professions have equal access to power based weapon skills, high coefficients or active damage mitigation. What this means is basically with half the power removed, they will either not be able to kill anything no matter what, find ways to get perma mightstacks rendering the change moot or whittle you down anyways.

    What's important here is to separate that which is scaleable and that which isn't. If warrior can kill you with a 2 shot combo, increasing it to 4 doesn't necessarily mean you'll survive it any easier, it just means he has to work harder - which is starting to become a common theme of core builds f.ex. The point is that if you don't dodge that first cc it's over anyways, so any further nerfing will make no difference, especially as you will be just as squishy.

    This game is all about active mitigation at this point, 4-5 years ago numbers still could swing fights but not anymore with the powercreep. This is why we get the two camps of those who avoid getting hit by big skills and think the game is fine, and those that try to tank it and is annoyed by the damage. Notice how one is scaleable and the other is not.

    But why not let the lower hp class kill faster then the war class whom has high hp?

    As for coefficients it seems to over complex balancing when you can just standardize coefficients but have power very from class to class letting the player have much more control over there builds. Also 1 power for one class should be the same effect as another class or your always going to have massive imbalance.

    Because the entire point of differing base health is to adjust time to kill to begin with - meaning warrior and necro are supposed to take a while to kill. The reason elementalist, thief and guardian have such a low healthpool, is to promote use of more hybrid amulets. You really want to give support guardian 9k more health? Or a FA ele who can burst from range more defense? Thief with mobility and stealth becoming 45% harder to pin down?

    I've been playing with the same idea, that we could uniform coefficients and weapon skill cooldowns for a more predictable outcome. But then let's look at warrior for example, who has quite the low attacks/s. Compared to mesmer, who has fairly high a/s the warrior would always struggle and you create favourable matchups - which is what the expansions were made to remove.

    At this point however, it's no longer a change we want to see implemented and a discussion of how we'd like it, in scope and complexity it has become a full rework which is either a pipedream or fit for gw3. The base health difference has been there since launch and I don't see it going anytime soon. It creates risk with using certain professions, diversifying amulets used and allow for multiple roles (with uniform values all would run zerker, if anyone could tank on node they would) which pretty much seems intended, and it gives flavour to the professions. But don't make the mistake of thinking it's the cause of the current balance issues, as it's quite far down the list showcased by how the core game was balanced before HoT.

    So the other classes cant use hybrid amulets? Should we lock amulets to classes? And there are builds for all classes in the game to be burstly its just some classes get "free" build in tanklyness to land that burst and not get one shot them self.

    The hp class balancing brakes down a lot in this game when you do look at classes who have high dmg build in to there effects but not the lowest hp but has def effect that makes it seems like they should be low hp classes such as mez.

    You just simply have classes who can run more dmg then others is what it comes down to purely because of there class having more hp.

    Easiest way to demonstrate is how a warrior won't be as effective as engi if both run celestial amulet - and they are designed that way. You can run any amulet, but that doesn't mean it's a good fit just like marauder on warrior is quite the waste.

    Yeah you get a free buid in there, but it's intended for them to take longer to kill, it's even reflected in traits and skill flavour - which is the point I've been trying to make all along. This in turn leads to low hp professions to build for added sustain while high hp professions turn more glassy.

    Yeah some can build for more damage, but stats are a minor component in this game when it comes to mitigation. You can build full tank and still go down eventually. In the end it comes down to time to kill, how you handle an outnumber and how much you can facetank - all decided by base hp.

    Eng is a mid hp class so it too is part of the hp imbalance.

    You can use any base hp variant you want. You can swap engi for necro in the prevous example, or compare Guardian to Mesmer (more healing oriented), the result is the same either way - that some professions benefit more from certain stats than others, whereof base health is a major deciding factor for the defensive ones. That's without even taking into account how condition damage affects different health values, scaling coefficients or viability as a whole.

    But to be fair I get your argument because at a glance it seems unnecessary, however once you start taking traits and available skill types into the equation it starts to spin a out of control. T

    hen those two would be the only deciding factor of a builds sustain. The bright side here is amulet choice would matter more since they are no longer needed to cover a deficit, but this too would lead to a locked meta where everyone use zerker f.ex - simply because else you can't kill the squishier professions anymore. A druid running permaprotection would now have direct 33% advantage over a thief at all times, support specs would contribute even less to overall pressure and all of a sudden condition builds require 2x the effort to bring down 7/9 professions, any healing skill would be reduced in efficacy by 50% on average and the balance would more than ever favor the profession who has access to innate boons and effects - something base health is the only prohibiting factor of as it currently stands.

    You say some professions get a free build. Why doesn't everyone play them then? Because of roles that need to be filled. What decides your role? Base health mostly. Without it we would enter the tankiest node-sustain meta you can imagine, way worse than in the HoT days where people cap a node and stay there until the game times out. The winners will be the ones who get the first and only kill.

    So you can write coherent stuff :p

    First, you say everyone would use zerker, but currently no one does. Zerker, sinister, diviner, assassin and viper are amulets that could be an option for some builds, some of which are currently under performing, like most of thief builds.

    Second, "balance would more than ever favor the profession who has access to innate boons and effects," compared to.. now?! You know there is a reason FB, holo, scrapper and soul beast dominate sPvP. All these can stack a significant amount of boons. This problem is not connected to HP pools. It is an independent issue. It needs to be addressed, but it is not caused by current HP pools and should not be a gating for other changes.

    Lastly, "Base health mostly. Without it we would enter the tankiest node-sustain meta." This goes directly against your first argument. If everyone is running highest damage amulets (which no one currently does) then why would we have the tankiest meta?! Yes, I could run demolisher on guardian, but thief, Mesmer and rev will run bersker. We will have more options across the board.

    In addition, changing HP pools will not be done in a vacuum. There will be other adjustments. Cuz a build like FB support will be ridiculous with large HP pool (even more ridiculous than it currently is). So cutting down FB sustain will be necessary (even without increasing HP pools..). But you would see more FB dps builds and more DH and core guardian builds, which are dead, as balance currently stands. And that is the point. The original purpose of HP pools no longer exists, and it currently limits build diversity significantly.

    No one expects this to be easy, or not require time investment. It comes down to devs moving their lazy butts to ensure we have more diversity across the board, instead of barely having 7-8 competitive builds. PoF has kitten balance in so many ways, and drastic measures need to be taken to regain balance and build diversity.

    First off, giving everyone high base hp will not instantly make every amulet viable. The only thing it will do is increase time to kill, no matter the build/profession. If the 10% lack of damage is what keeps you from being viable on thief, then a zerk amulet won't help in the least.

    Second, what is meta now would be even more meta with this change, same goes for already poorly performing professions , simply because they already achieve a balance in this landscape of different healthpools from lowest to highest, infact this would be a direct buff to everything but warrior and necro. What makes you think the meta would shift in any way? Because if everyone becomes a nodeholder, current nodeholders would still rule since they already are better than the other 20k professions. Fewer kills, longer fights and more zerging would be the result. This is what I mean with a tanky meta.

    You see now how a zerker will be the only one able to swing fights and rotate? Just because it's advantageous doesn't make it meta.

    The moment you bring in a full rebalance then this discussion is no longer about base hp pools, because if it's the end all be all we would end with a more balanced game. Which we won't. In fact we would end up with more broken builds now tgat everyones sustain would go through the roof. Not to mention how much you would lose on having a support in your team, we would see way fewer of them.

    You need to think beyond the immideate individual benefit and look at the meta that would form, because right now you don't even take that into consideration. Sure somewhere down the line we could get more balance, but at the cost of extremely boring slow games with every profession feeling alot more the same. Diversity is not the same as viability.

  • rng.1024rng.1024 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @rng.1024 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @rng.1024 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @rng.1024 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @rng.1024 said:
    There are alot more factors at play than just power vs base health.

    The more fair option would be to f.ex increase base armor, and then scale it inversely with base health. This would mean low hp character can better negate a burst than a high hp character, who in turn has more health to sustain prolonged exposure to damage.

    What I mean by factors is how not all professions have equal access to power based weapon skills, high coefficients or active damage mitigation. What this means is basically with half the power removed, they will either not be able to kill anything no matter what, find ways to get perma mightstacks rendering the change moot or whittle you down anyways.

    What's important here is to separate that which is scaleable and that which isn't. If warrior can kill you with a 2 shot combo, increasing it to 4 doesn't necessarily mean you'll survive it any easier, it just means he has to work harder - which is starting to become a common theme of core builds f.ex. The point is that if you don't dodge that first cc it's over anyways, so any further nerfing will make no difference, especially as you will be just as squishy.

    This game is all about active mitigation at this point, 4-5 years ago numbers still could swing fights but not anymore with the powercreep. This is why we get the two camps of those who avoid getting hit by big skills and think the game is fine, and those that try to tank it and is annoyed by the damage. Notice how one is scaleable and the other is not.

    But why not let the lower hp class kill faster then the war class whom has high hp?

    As for coefficients it seems to over complex balancing when you can just standardize coefficients but have power very from class to class letting the player have much more control over there builds. Also 1 power for one class should be the same effect as another class or your always going to have massive imbalance.

    Because the entire point of differing base health is to adjust time to kill to begin with - meaning warrior and necro are supposed to take a while to kill. The reason elementalist, thief and guardian have such a low healthpool, is to promote use of more hybrid amulets. You really want to give support guardian 9k more health? Or a FA ele who can burst from range more defense? Thief with mobility and stealth becoming 45% harder to pin down?

    I've been playing with the same idea, that we could uniform coefficients and weapon skill cooldowns for a more predictable outcome. But then let's look at warrior for example, who has quite the low attacks/s. Compared to mesmer, who has fairly high a/s the warrior would always struggle and you create favourable matchups - which is what the expansions were made to remove.

    At this point however, it's no longer a change we want to see implemented and a discussion of how we'd like it, in scope and complexity it has become a full rework which is either a pipedream or fit for gw3. The base health difference has been there since launch and I don't see it going anytime soon. It creates risk with using certain professions, diversifying amulets used and allow for multiple roles (with uniform values all would run zerker, if anyone could tank on node they would) which pretty much seems intended, and it gives flavour to the professions. But don't make the mistake of thinking it's the cause of the current balance issues, as it's quite far down the list showcased by how the core game was balanced before HoT.

    So the other classes cant use hybrid amulets? Should we lock amulets to classes? And there are builds for all classes in the game to be burstly its just some classes get "free" build in tanklyness to land that burst and not get one shot them self.

    The hp class balancing brakes down a lot in this game when you do look at classes who have high dmg build in to there effects but not the lowest hp but has def effect that makes it seems like they should be low hp classes such as mez.

    You just simply have classes who can run more dmg then others is what it comes down to purely because of there class having more hp.

    Easiest way to demonstrate is how a warrior won't be as effective as engi if both run celestial amulet - and they are designed that way. You can run any amulet, but that doesn't mean it's a good fit just like marauder on warrior is quite the waste.

    Yeah you get a free buid in there, but it's intended for them to take longer to kill, it's even reflected in traits and skill flavour - which is the point I've been trying to make all along. This in turn leads to low hp professions to build for added sustain while high hp professions turn more glassy.

    Yeah some can build for more damage, but stats are a minor component in this game when it comes to mitigation. You can build full tank and still go down eventually. In the end it comes down to time to kill, how you handle an outnumber and how much you can facetank - all decided by base hp.

    Eng is a mid hp class so it too is part of the hp imbalance.

    You can use any base hp variant you want. You can swap engi for necro in the prevous example, or compare Guardian to Mesmer (more healing oriented), the result is the same either way - that some professions benefit more from certain stats than others, whereof base health is a major deciding factor for the defensive ones. That's without even taking into account how condition damage affects different health values, scaling coefficients or viability as a whole.

    But to be fair I get your argument because at a glance it seems unnecessary, however once you start taking traits and available skill types into the equation it starts to spin a out of control. T

    hen those two would be the only deciding factor of a builds sustain. The bright side here is amulet choice would matter more since they are no longer needed to cover a deficit, but this too would lead to a locked meta where everyone use zerker f.ex - simply because else you can't kill the squishier professions anymore. A druid running permaprotection would now have direct 33% advantage over a thief at all times, support specs would contribute even less to overall pressure and all of a sudden condition builds require 2x the effort to bring down 7/9 professions, any healing skill would be reduced in efficacy by 50% on average and the balance would more than ever favor the profession who has access to innate boons and effects - something base health is the only prohibiting factor of as it currently stands.

    You say some professions get a free build. Why doesn't everyone play them then? Because of roles that need to be filled. What decides your role? Base health mostly. Without it we would enter the tankiest node-sustain meta you can imagine, way worse than in the HoT days where people cap a node and stay there until the game times out. The winners will be the ones who get the first and only kill.

    So is hp the balancing tool for def or not then? Is it hp or is it def skills because all classes have def skill in one way or another.

    At the end of the day if you have more hp you can build higher dmg every class has there means of saying alive for a moment but your still going to take dmg from reaction effect like retal burning on blocks etc.. things that you cant build for but for say your hp.

    An ele thf and gurd should do more dmg because they lack hp that say a war has so these classes most often build with some def in mind. Classes like necro war and ranger can build with raw dmg in mind because they get "free" hp. You can say the same for mez eng and rev but its not as bad from the hp point of view.

    As long as only def effect of hp very from class to class the game will always be not balanced.

    The more free hp a class has the more zerker meta you will see that why the thing back in the day every one was able to build ok hp and def because of how trait lines worked. If any thing the high hp classes are still stuck in the zerker meta the other classes have to build with hp or some other type of def combo in mind.

    @Nimon.7840 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:
    If anet must have class base hp balancing (some classes simply have more hp because they are one class or another) why not have power base work the same way?

    This game is very much HP dependent on how well your class can stay alive as most classes have the ability to full heal after a burst hit when some one or npc finds there way though evasion blocks and invabitly that all classes have. Its if you get one shot or not that makes your class a glass build or not. The thing is if your class has high hp to start with you simply get "free" room to go more dmg vs the class with low hp who will need to be an "if hit goes down" build or must give up dmg to not be a one hit build.

    Why not let low hp classes be rewarded for this risk?

    What risk?
    Low hp classes have a lot of evades or blocks or general mobility.

    The only class that would get hit and nerfed super hard by this would be necro that has no defenses other than his healthbar (and his "second health bar" that isn't a health bar because it degenerates while infight.

    If you'd do this you would also have to keep different armor value from different armor classes in mind.

    So guard would stay the same as it has heavy armor but low health
    Necro would stay the same: light armor but high health
    Warrior would be nerfed, high health, heavy armor
    Ele would be buffed, low health, light armor.

    Not a very well thought post.

    @rng.1024 and @Jski.6180
    But back to blocks and so on. Would ele then be nerfed because it has a lot of evades? And necro be buffed because it doesn't have a single block or dodge?

    Blocks/invuln and evades provide infinite dmg reduction while health doesn't

    But please, before making such suggestions, please use your brain and consider, what effect such changes would have for all classes!

    I mean war has blocks and evasion so its not a low hp class vs high hp class type of balancing point.

    If you honestly believe a thief f.ex is supposed to trade blow for blow with a warrior, then I'm not sure what game you are playing. Yes hp is the major balance factor.

    Take a look at meta warrior - do you really feel it builds for excessive damage? Or meta scourge for that matter?

    No it wasn't the old traits that kept things under control, it was less AoE, less range, harder to achieve might stacking and fewer defensive options, as well as less spammy damage introduced with elite specs which just added upon weapons. Why would there be a zerker meta you think? More defense would still win out if we increase people's health, even moreso because instead of going up against someone with 25% less health but an amulet with 20% more toughness, you would now be up against someone with the same health as you but 20% more toughness - meaning unless you do 20% more damage (which is way more than from zerker to marauder) then you will by numbers alone already lose if you trade blows.

  • Crab Fear.1624Crab Fear.1624 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @rng.1024 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @rng.1024 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @rng.1024 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @rng.1024 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @rng.1024 said:
    There are alot more factors at play than just power vs base health.

    The more fair option would be to f.ex increase base armor, and then scale it inversely with base health. This would mean low hp character can better negate a burst than a high hp character, who in turn has more health to sustain prolonged exposure to damage.

    What I mean by factors is how not all professions have equal access to power based weapon skills, high coefficients or active damage mitigation. What this means is basically with half the power removed, they will either not be able to kill anything no matter what, find ways to get perma mightstacks rendering the change moot or whittle you down anyways.

    What's important here is to separate that which is scaleable and that which isn't. If warrior can kill you with a 2 shot combo, increasing it to 4 doesn't necessarily mean you'll survive it any easier, it just means he has to work harder - which is starting to become a common theme of core builds f.ex. The point is that if you don't dodge that first cc it's over anyways, so any further nerfing will make no difference, especially as you will be just as squishy.

    This game is all about active mitigation at this point, 4-5 years ago numbers still could swing fights but not anymore with the powercreep. This is why we get the two camps of those who avoid getting hit by big skills and think the game is fine, and those that try to tank it and is annoyed by the damage. Notice how one is scaleable and the other is not.

    But why not let the lower hp class kill faster then the war class whom has high hp?

    As for coefficients it seems to over complex balancing when you can just standardize coefficients but have power very from class to class letting the player have much more control over there builds. Also 1 power for one class should be the same effect as another class or your always going to have massive imbalance.

    Because the entire point of differing base health is to adjust time to kill to begin with - meaning warrior and necro are supposed to take a while to kill. The reason elementalist, thief and guardian have such a low healthpool, is to promote use of more hybrid amulets. You really want to give support guardian 9k more health? Or a FA ele who can burst from range more defense? Thief with mobility and stealth becoming 45% harder to pin down?

    I've been playing with the same idea, that we could uniform coefficients and weapon skill cooldowns for a more predictable outcome. But then let's look at warrior for example, who has quite the low attacks/s. Compared to mesmer, who has fairly high a/s the warrior would always struggle and you create favourable matchups - which is what the expansions were made to remove.

    At this point however, it's no longer a change we want to see implemented and a discussion of how we'd like it, in scope and complexity it has become a full rework which is either a pipedream or fit for gw3. The base health difference has been there since launch and I don't see it going anytime soon. It creates risk with using certain professions, diversifying amulets used and allow for multiple roles (with uniform values all would run zerker, if anyone could tank on node they would) which pretty much seems intended, and it gives flavour to the professions. But don't make the mistake of thinking it's the cause of the current balance issues, as it's quite far down the list showcased by how the core game was balanced before HoT.

    So the other classes cant use hybrid amulets? Should we lock amulets to classes? And there are builds for all classes in the game to be burstly its just some classes get "free" build in tanklyness to land that burst and not get one shot them self.

    The hp class balancing brakes down a lot in this game when you do look at classes who have high dmg build in to there effects but not the lowest hp but has def effect that makes it seems like they should be low hp classes such as mez.

    You just simply have classes who can run more dmg then others is what it comes down to purely because of there class having more hp.

    Easiest way to demonstrate is how a warrior won't be as effective as engi if both run celestial amulet - and they are designed that way. You can run any amulet, but that doesn't mean it's a good fit just like marauder on warrior is quite the waste.

    Yeah you get a free buid in there, but it's intended for them to take longer to kill, it's even reflected in traits and skill flavour - which is the point I've been trying to make all along. This in turn leads to low hp professions to build for added sustain while high hp professions turn more glassy.

    Yeah some can build for more damage, but stats are a minor component in this game when it comes to mitigation. You can build full tank and still go down eventually. In the end it comes down to time to kill, how you handle an outnumber and how much you can facetank - all decided by base hp.

    Eng is a mid hp class so it too is part of the hp imbalance.

    You can use any base hp variant you want. You can swap engi for necro in the prevous example, or compare Guardian to Mesmer (more healing oriented), the result is the same either way - that some professions benefit more from certain stats than others, whereof base health is a major deciding factor for the defensive ones. That's without even taking into account how condition damage affects different health values, scaling coefficients or viability as a whole.

    But to be fair I get your argument because at a glance it seems unnecessary, however once you start taking traits and available skill types into the equation it starts to spin a out of control. T

    hen those two would be the only deciding factor of a builds sustain. The bright side here is amulet choice would matter more since they are no longer needed to cover a deficit, but this too would lead to a locked meta where everyone use zerker f.ex - simply because else you can't kill the squishier professions anymore. A druid running permaprotection would now have direct 33% advantage over a thief at all times, support specs would contribute even less to overall pressure and all of a sudden condition builds require 2x the effort to bring down 7/9 professions, any healing skill would be reduced in efficacy by 50% on average and the balance would more than ever favor the profession who has access to innate boons and effects - something base health is the only prohibiting factor of as it currently stands.

    You say some professions get a free build. Why doesn't everyone play them then? Because of roles that need to be filled. What decides your role? Base health mostly. Without it we would enter the tankiest node-sustain meta you can imagine, way worse than in the HoT days where people cap a node and stay there until the game times out. The winners will be the ones who get the first and only kill.

    So is hp the balancing tool for def or not then? Is it hp or is it def skills because all classes have def skill in one way or another.

    At the end of the day if you have more hp you can build higher dmg every class has there means of saying alive for a moment but your still going to take dmg from reaction effect like retal burning on blocks etc.. things that you cant build for but for say your hp.

    An ele thf and gurd should do more dmg because they lack hp that say a war has so these classes most often build with some def in mind. Classes like necro war and ranger can build with raw dmg in mind because they get "free" hp. You can say the same for mez eng and rev but its not as bad from the hp point of view.

    As long as only def effect of hp very from class to class the game will always be not balanced.

    The more free hp a class has the more zerker meta you will see that why the thing back in the day every one was able to build ok hp and def because of how trait lines worked. If any thing the high hp classes are still stuck in the zerker meta the other classes have to build with hp or some other type of def combo in mind.

    @Nimon.7840 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:
    If anet must have class base hp balancing (some classes simply have more hp because they are one class or another) why not have power base work the same way?

    This game is very much HP dependent on how well your class can stay alive as most classes have the ability to full heal after a burst hit when some one or npc finds there way though evasion blocks and invabitly that all classes have. Its if you get one shot or not that makes your class a glass build or not. The thing is if your class has high hp to start with you simply get "free" room to go more dmg vs the class with low hp who will need to be an "if hit goes down" build or must give up dmg to not be a one hit build.

    Why not let low hp classes be rewarded for this risk?

    What risk?
    Low hp classes have a lot of evades or blocks or general mobility.

    The only class that would get hit and nerfed super hard by this would be necro that has no defenses other than his healthbar (and his "second health bar" that isn't a health bar because it degenerates while infight.

    If you'd do this you would also have to keep different armor value from different armor classes in mind.

    So guard would stay the same as it has heavy armor but low health
    Necro would stay the same: light armor but high health
    Warrior would be nerfed, high health, heavy armor
    Ele would be buffed, low health, light armor.

    Not a very well thought post.

    @rng.1024 and @Jski.6180
    But back to blocks and so on. Would ele then be nerfed because it has a lot of evades? And necro be buffed because it doesn't have a single block or dodge?

    Blocks/invuln and evades provide infinite dmg reduction while health doesn't

    But please, before making such suggestions, please use your brain and consider, what effect such changes would have for all classes!

    I mean war has blocks and evasion so its not a low hp class vs high hp class type of balancing point.

    If you honestly believe a thief f.ex is supposed to trade blow for blow with a warrior, then I'm not sure what game you are playing. Yes hp is the major balance factor.

    Take a look at meta warrior - do you really feel it builds for excessive damage? Or meta scourge for that matter?

    No it wasn't the old traits that kept things under control, it was less AoE, less range, harder to achieve might stacking and fewer defensive options, as well as less spammy damage introduced with elite specs which just added upon weapons. Why would there be a zerker meta you think? More defense would still win out if we increase people's health, even moreso because instead of going up against someone with 25% less health but an amulet with 20% more toughness, you would now be up against someone with the same health as you but 20% more toughness - meaning unless you do 20% more damage (which is way more than from zerker to marauder) then you will by numbers alone already lose if you trade blows.

    I honestly believe thief is supposed to drop everyones drawers in a 1 v 1.

    Since that ain't the case, all I can say.....

    Buff Thief

    Soon™ ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

  • Jski.6180Jski.6180 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @rng.1024 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @rng.1024 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @rng.1024 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @rng.1024 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @rng.1024 said:
    There are alot more factors at play than just power vs base health.

    The more fair option would be to f.ex increase base armor, and then scale it inversely with base health. This would mean low hp character can better negate a burst than a high hp character, who in turn has more health to sustain prolonged exposure to damage.

    What I mean by factors is how not all professions have equal access to power based weapon skills, high coefficients or active damage mitigation. What this means is basically with half the power removed, they will either not be able to kill anything no matter what, find ways to get perma mightstacks rendering the change moot or whittle you down anyways.

    What's important here is to separate that which is scaleable and that which isn't. If warrior can kill you with a 2 shot combo, increasing it to 4 doesn't necessarily mean you'll survive it any easier, it just means he has to work harder - which is starting to become a common theme of core builds f.ex. The point is that if you don't dodge that first cc it's over anyways, so any further nerfing will make no difference, especially as you will be just as squishy.

    This game is all about active mitigation at this point, 4-5 years ago numbers still could swing fights but not anymore with the powercreep. This is why we get the two camps of those who avoid getting hit by big skills and think the game is fine, and those that try to tank it and is annoyed by the damage. Notice how one is scaleable and the other is not.

    But why not let the lower hp class kill faster then the war class whom has high hp?

    As for coefficients it seems to over complex balancing when you can just standardize coefficients but have power very from class to class letting the player have much more control over there builds. Also 1 power for one class should be the same effect as another class or your always going to have massive imbalance.

    Because the entire point of differing base health is to adjust time to kill to begin with - meaning warrior and necro are supposed to take a while to kill. The reason elementalist, thief and guardian have such a low healthpool, is to promote use of more hybrid amulets. You really want to give support guardian 9k more health? Or a FA ele who can burst from range more defense? Thief with mobility and stealth becoming 45% harder to pin down?

    I've been playing with the same idea, that we could uniform coefficients and weapon skill cooldowns for a more predictable outcome. But then let's look at warrior for example, who has quite the low attacks/s. Compared to mesmer, who has fairly high a/s the warrior would always struggle and you create favourable matchups - which is what the expansions were made to remove.

    At this point however, it's no longer a change we want to see implemented and a discussion of how we'd like it, in scope and complexity it has become a full rework which is either a pipedream or fit for gw3. The base health difference has been there since launch and I don't see it going anytime soon. It creates risk with using certain professions, diversifying amulets used and allow for multiple roles (with uniform values all would run zerker, if anyone could tank on node they would) which pretty much seems intended, and it gives flavour to the professions. But don't make the mistake of thinking it's the cause of the current balance issues, as it's quite far down the list showcased by how the core game was balanced before HoT.

    So the other classes cant use hybrid amulets? Should we lock amulets to classes? And there are builds for all classes in the game to be burstly its just some classes get "free" build in tanklyness to land that burst and not get one shot them self.

    The hp class balancing brakes down a lot in this game when you do look at classes who have high dmg build in to there effects but not the lowest hp but has def effect that makes it seems like they should be low hp classes such as mez.

    You just simply have classes who can run more dmg then others is what it comes down to purely because of there class having more hp.

    Easiest way to demonstrate is how a warrior won't be as effective as engi if both run celestial amulet - and they are designed that way. You can run any amulet, but that doesn't mean it's a good fit just like marauder on warrior is quite the waste.

    Yeah you get a free buid in there, but it's intended for them to take longer to kill, it's even reflected in traits and skill flavour - which is the point I've been trying to make all along. This in turn leads to low hp professions to build for added sustain while high hp professions turn more glassy.

    Yeah some can build for more damage, but stats are a minor component in this game when it comes to mitigation. You can build full tank and still go down eventually. In the end it comes down to time to kill, how you handle an outnumber and how much you can facetank - all decided by base hp.

    Eng is a mid hp class so it too is part of the hp imbalance.

    You can use any base hp variant you want. You can swap engi for necro in the prevous example, or compare Guardian to Mesmer (more healing oriented), the result is the same either way - that some professions benefit more from certain stats than others, whereof base health is a major deciding factor for the defensive ones. That's without even taking into account how condition damage affects different health values, scaling coefficients or viability as a whole.

    But to be fair I get your argument because at a glance it seems unnecessary, however once you start taking traits and available skill types into the equation it starts to spin a out of control. T

    hen those two would be the only deciding factor of a builds sustain. The bright side here is amulet choice would matter more since they are no longer needed to cover a deficit, but this too would lead to a locked meta where everyone use zerker f.ex - simply because else you can't kill the squishier professions anymore. A druid running permaprotection would now have direct 33% advantage over a thief at all times, support specs would contribute even less to overall pressure and all of a sudden condition builds require 2x the effort to bring down 7/9 professions, any healing skill would be reduced in efficacy by 50% on average and the balance would more than ever favor the profession who has access to innate boons and effects - something base health is the only prohibiting factor of as it currently stands.

    You say some professions get a free build. Why doesn't everyone play them then? Because of roles that need to be filled. What decides your role? Base health mostly. Without it we would enter the tankiest node-sustain meta you can imagine, way worse than in the HoT days where people cap a node and stay there until the game times out. The winners will be the ones who get the first and only kill.

    So is hp the balancing tool for def or not then? Is it hp or is it def skills because all classes have def skill in one way or another.

    At the end of the day if you have more hp you can build higher dmg every class has there means of saying alive for a moment but your still going to take dmg from reaction effect like retal burning on blocks etc.. things that you cant build for but for say your hp.

    An ele thf and gurd should do more dmg because they lack hp that say a war has so these classes most often build with some def in mind. Classes like necro war and ranger can build with raw dmg in mind because they get "free" hp. You can say the same for mez eng and rev but its not as bad from the hp point of view.

    As long as only def effect of hp very from class to class the game will always be not balanced.

    The more free hp a class has the more zerker meta you will see that why the thing back in the day every one was able to build ok hp and def because of how trait lines worked. If any thing the high hp classes are still stuck in the zerker meta the other classes have to build with hp or some other type of def combo in mind.

    @Nimon.7840 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:
    If anet must have class base hp balancing (some classes simply have more hp because they are one class or another) why not have power base work the same way?

    This game is very much HP dependent on how well your class can stay alive as most classes have the ability to full heal after a burst hit when some one or npc finds there way though evasion blocks and invabitly that all classes have. Its if you get one shot or not that makes your class a glass build or not. The thing is if your class has high hp to start with you simply get "free" room to go more dmg vs the class with low hp who will need to be an "if hit goes down" build or must give up dmg to not be a one hit build.

    Why not let low hp classes be rewarded for this risk?

    What risk?
    Low hp classes have a lot of evades or blocks or general mobility.

    The only class that would get hit and nerfed super hard by this would be necro that has no defenses other than his healthbar (and his "second health bar" that isn't a health bar because it degenerates while infight.

    If you'd do this you would also have to keep different armor value from different armor classes in mind.

    So guard would stay the same as it has heavy armor but low health
    Necro would stay the same: light armor but high health
    Warrior would be nerfed, high health, heavy armor
    Ele would be buffed, low health, light armor.

    Not a very well thought post.

    @rng.1024 and @Jski.6180
    But back to blocks and so on. Would ele then be nerfed because it has a lot of evades? And necro be buffed because it doesn't have a single block or dodge?

    Blocks/invuln and evades provide infinite dmg reduction while health doesn't

    But please, before making such suggestions, please use your brain and consider, what effect such changes would have for all classes!

    I mean war has blocks and evasion so its not a low hp class vs high hp class type of balancing point.

    If you honestly believe a thief f.ex is supposed to trade blow for blow with a warrior, then I'm not sure what game you are playing. Yes hp is the major balance factor.

    Take a look at meta warrior - do you really feel it builds for excessive damage? Or meta scourge for that matter?

    No it wasn't the old traits that kept things under control, it was less AoE, less range, harder to achieve might stacking and fewer defensive options, as well as less spammy damage introduced with elite specs which just added upon weapons. Why would there be a zerker meta you think? More defense would still win out if we increase people's health, even moreso because instead of going up against someone with 25% less health but an amulet with 20% more toughness, you would now be up against someone with the same health as you but 20% more toughness - meaning unless you do 20% more damage (which is way more than from zerker to marauder) then you will by numbers alone already lose if you trade blows.

    I think a thf should hit a lot harder then a war and a war should not be able to last long vs a thf who set up to land the first blow.

    I think warrior can go too far into dmg with out going glass in how much max hp it has.

    There was a lot of aoe in the old gw2 but your trate lines gave you your hp power etc.. not your gear so you could go full zerk and still be some what tankly. That not in the game any more but classes who have build in high hp are still able to go all in dmg and still be tankly were the low hp classes must build tankly but often do not get dmg to make up for the hp wall that they must eat though to kill the high hp classes.

    All classes have skill to deal with dmg as well as healing and its getting worst with each update to this game. From both the elites they added in new combo in gear and new runes set. Would you like some healing with your taking 0 dmg with you life steal with you endless stab ending condi clear and barriers?

    See ELE forms and you will get my views.

  • otto.5684otto.5684 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Crab Fear.1624 Thief, by design, cannot be top 1v1 due to mobility.

    @rng.1024 You keep saying that HP pools will turn meta into bunker, yet you never demonstrate how. Also, do you think when we raise the HP pools will give classes 50k HP? It will probably be under 7-8k for low HP pool and under 3k for large HP pool. Do you really think that SB with 22-23k HP will turn meta into bunker? However, thief in berserker surely will impact the meta. If we put HP pools:

    Large at 22k
    Medium at 20k
    Small at 18k

    I expect TTK will decrease a bit for SB, scourge, holo and scrapper. These builds already dominate sPvP now. This change should shift the meta to higher damage, since thief and guardians will torch builds like scrapper, if they are using berserker gear. FB will be the only outlier, which could easily be fixed with a direct nerf.

    It is worth to repoint our that currently the meta is dominated by SB, soul beast, holo, scrapper, scourge, herald and FB. There is a common thread between these builds, large HP pool or medium HP pool with significant other sustain tools (except FB support, which still runs 15k HP base with honor GM trait).

  • Nimon.7840Nimon.7840 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @rng.1024 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @rng.1024 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @rng.1024 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @rng.1024 said:
    There are alot more factors at play than just power vs base health.

    The more fair option would be to f.ex increase base armor, and then scale it inversely with base health. This would mean low hp character can better negate a burst than a high hp character, who in turn has more health to sustain prolonged exposure to damage.

    What I mean by factors is how not all professions have equal access to power based weapon skills, high coefficients or active damage mitigation. What this means is basically with half the power removed, they will either not be able to kill anything no matter what, find ways to get perma mightstacks rendering the change moot or whittle you down anyways.

    What's important here is to separate that which is scaleable and that which isn't. If warrior can kill you with a 2 shot combo, increasing it to 4 doesn't necessarily mean you'll survive it any easier, it just means he has to work harder - which is starting to become a common theme of core builds f.ex. The point is that if you don't dodge that first cc it's over anyways, so any further nerfing will make no difference, especially as you will be just as squishy.

    This game is all about active mitigation at this point, 4-5 years ago numbers still could swing fights but not anymore with the powercreep. This is why we get the two camps of those who avoid getting hit by big skills and think the game is fine, and those that try to tank it and is annoyed by the damage. Notice how one is scaleable and the other is not.

    But why not let the lower hp class kill faster then the war class whom has high hp?

    As for coefficients it seems to over complex balancing when you can just standardize coefficients but have power very from class to class letting the player have much more control over there builds. Also 1 power for one class should be the same effect as another class or your always going to have massive imbalance.

    Because the entire point of differing base health is to adjust time to kill to begin with - meaning warrior and necro are supposed to take a while to kill. The reason elementalist, thief and guardian have such a low healthpool, is to promote use of more hybrid amulets. You really want to give support guardian 9k more health? Or a FA ele who can burst from range more defense? Thief with mobility and stealth becoming 45% harder to pin down?

    I've been playing with the same idea, that we could uniform coefficients and weapon skill cooldowns for a more predictable outcome. But then let's look at warrior for example, who has quite the low attacks/s. Compared to mesmer, who has fairly high a/s the warrior would always struggle and you create favourable matchups - which is what the expansions were made to remove.

    At this point however, it's no longer a change we want to see implemented and a discussion of how we'd like it, in scope and complexity it has become a full rework which is either a pipedream or fit for gw3. The base health difference has been there since launch and I don't see it going anytime soon. It creates risk with using certain professions, diversifying amulets used and allow for multiple roles (with uniform values all would run zerker, if anyone could tank on node they would) which pretty much seems intended, and it gives flavour to the professions. But don't make the mistake of thinking it's the cause of the current balance issues, as it's quite far down the list showcased by how the core game was balanced before HoT.

    So the other classes cant use hybrid amulets? Should we lock amulets to classes? And there are builds for all classes in the game to be burstly its just some classes get "free" build in tanklyness to land that burst and not get one shot them self.

    The hp class balancing brakes down a lot in this game when you do look at classes who have high dmg build in to there effects but not the lowest hp but has def effect that makes it seems like they should be low hp classes such as mez.

    You just simply have classes who can run more dmg then others is what it comes down to purely because of there class having more hp.

    Easiest way to demonstrate is how a warrior won't be as effective as engi if both run celestial amulet - and they are designed that way. You can run any amulet, but that doesn't mean it's a good fit just like marauder on warrior is quite the waste.

    Yeah you get a free buid in there, but it's intended for them to take longer to kill, it's even reflected in traits and skill flavour - which is the point I've been trying to make all along. This in turn leads to low hp professions to build for added sustain while high hp professions turn more glassy.

    Yeah some can build for more damage, but stats are a minor component in this game when it comes to mitigation. You can build full tank and still go down eventually. In the end it comes down to time to kill, how you handle an outnumber and how much you can facetank - all decided by base hp.

    Eng is a mid hp class so it too is part of the hp imbalance.

    You can use any base hp variant you want. You can swap engi for necro in the prevous example, or compare Guardian to Mesmer (more healing oriented), the result is the same either way - that some professions benefit more from certain stats than others, whereof base health is a major deciding factor for the defensive ones. That's without even taking into account how condition damage affects different health values, scaling coefficients or viability as a whole.

    But to be fair I get your argument because at a glance it seems unnecessary, however once you start taking traits and available skill types into the equation it starts to spin a out of control. T

    hen those two would be the only deciding factor of a builds sustain. The bright side here is amulet choice would matter more since they are no longer needed to cover a deficit, but this too would lead to a locked meta where everyone use zerker f.ex - simply because else you can't kill the squishier professions anymore. A druid running permaprotection would now have direct 33% advantage over a thief at all times, support specs would contribute even less to overall pressure and all of a sudden condition builds require 2x the effort to bring down 7/9 professions, any healing skill would be reduced in efficacy by 50% on average and the balance would more than ever favor the profession who has access to innate boons and effects - something base health is the only prohibiting factor of as it currently stands.

    You say some professions get a free build. Why doesn't everyone play them then? Because of roles that need to be filled. What decides your role? Base health mostly. Without it we would enter the tankiest node-sustain meta you can imagine, way worse than in the HoT days where people cap a node and stay there until the game times out. The winners will be the ones who get the first and only kill.

    So is hp the balancing tool for def or not then? Is it hp or is it def skills because all classes have def skill in one way or another.

    At the end of the day if you have more hp you can build higher dmg every class has there means of saying alive for a moment but your still going to take dmg from reaction effect like retal burning on blocks etc.. things that you cant build for but for say your hp.

    An ele thf and gurd should do more dmg because they lack hp that say a war has so these classes most often build with some def in mind. Classes like necro war and ranger can build with raw dmg in mind because they get "free" hp. You can say the same for mez eng and rev but its not as bad from the hp point of view.

    As long as only def effect of hp very from class to class the game will always be not balanced.

    The more free hp a class has the more zerker meta you will see that why the thing back in the day every one was able to build ok hp and def because of how trait lines worked. If any thing the high hp classes are still stuck in the zerker meta the other classes have to build with hp or some other type of def combo in mind.

    @Nimon.7840 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:
    If anet must have class base hp balancing (some classes simply have more hp because they are one class or another) why not have power base work the same way?

    This game is very much HP dependent on how well your class can stay alive as most classes have the ability to full heal after a burst hit when some one or npc finds there way though evasion blocks and invabitly that all classes have. Its if you get one shot or not that makes your class a glass build or not. The thing is if your class has high hp to start with you simply get "free" room to go more dmg vs the class with low hp who will need to be an "if hit goes down" build or must give up dmg to not be a one hit build.

    Why not let low hp classes be rewarded for this risk?

    What risk?
    Low hp classes have a lot of evades or blocks or general mobility.

    The only class that would get hit and nerfed super hard by this would be necro that has no defenses other than his healthbar (and his "second health bar" that isn't a health bar because it degenerates while infight.

    If you'd do this you would also have to keep different armor value from different armor classes in mind.

    So guard would stay the same as it has heavy armor but low health
    Necro would stay the same: light armor but high health
    Warrior would be nerfed, high health, heavy armor
    Ele would be buffed, low health, light armor.

    Not a very well thought post.

    @rng.1024 and @Jski.6180
    But back to blocks and so on. Would ele then be nerfed because it has a lot of evades? And necro be buffed because it doesn't have a single block or dodge?

    Blocks/invuln and evades provide infinite dmg reduction while health doesn't

    But please, before making such suggestions, please use your brain and consider, what effect such changes would have for all classes!

    I mean war has blocks and evasion so its not a low hp class vs high hp class type of balancing point.

    Yeah. That's something I don't understand, war has kinda good sustain, high health, blocks, invulns, mobility, evade.

    The whole base hp thing is kinda old fashioned. Yes. From core game.

    Dmg got higher (and I believe cutting dmg and healing into half in pvp modes should be the way to go)
    But. And that's a huge but. If you take the most common ele build right now. If it's well played you will survive 1v2 or even 1v3 fights in wvw. If you now give that build more dmg or more hp, it would be totally busted op. As ele has very good protection uptime + sustain (healing) + evades and blocks/invuln.

    Yes. I would like to see some tweaks. But you have to keep a lot of factors in mind.
    For example if you do some tweaks, you have to give necro blocks, more mobility or invulns as well. As its sustain is very bad (well you can build for it, but it's not worth compared to other classes. if you invest the same stats as other classes do, you will get much less out of it. Or if you heavily build for it, you will never ever be able to kill someone, while other classes still can)

  • Ganathar.4956Ganathar.4956 Member ✭✭✭

    @Nimon.7840 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @rng.1024 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @rng.1024 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @rng.1024 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @rng.1024 said:
    There are alot more factors at play than just power vs base health.

    The more fair option would be to f.ex increase base armor, and then scale it inversely with base health. This would mean low hp character can better negate a burst than a high hp character, who in turn has more health to sustain prolonged exposure to damage.

    What I mean by factors is how not all professions have equal access to power based weapon skills, high coefficients or active damage mitigation. What this means is basically with half the power removed, they will either not be able to kill anything no matter what, find ways to get perma mightstacks rendering the change moot or whittle you down anyways.

    What's important here is to separate that which is scaleable and that which isn't. If warrior can kill you with a 2 shot combo, increasing it to 4 doesn't necessarily mean you'll survive it any easier, it just means he has to work harder - which is starting to become a common theme of core builds f.ex. The point is that if you don't dodge that first cc it's over anyways, so any further nerfing will make no difference, especially as you will be just as squishy.

    This game is all about active mitigation at this point, 4-5 years ago numbers still could swing fights but not anymore with the powercreep. This is why we get the two camps of those who avoid getting hit by big skills and think the game is fine, and those that try to tank it and is annoyed by the damage. Notice how one is scaleable and the other is not.

    But why not let the lower hp class kill faster then the war class whom has high hp?

    As for coefficients it seems to over complex balancing when you can just standardize coefficients but have power very from class to class letting the player have much more control over there builds. Also 1 power for one class should be the same effect as another class or your always going to have massive imbalance.

    Because the entire point of differing base health is to adjust time to kill to begin with - meaning warrior and necro are supposed to take a while to kill. The reason elementalist, thief and guardian have such a low healthpool, is to promote use of more hybrid amulets. You really want to give support guardian 9k more health? Or a FA ele who can burst from range more defense? Thief with mobility and stealth becoming 45% harder to pin down?

    I've been playing with the same idea, that we could uniform coefficients and weapon skill cooldowns for a more predictable outcome. But then let's look at warrior for example, who has quite the low attacks/s. Compared to mesmer, who has fairly high a/s the warrior would always struggle and you create favourable matchups - which is what the expansions were made to remove.

    At this point however, it's no longer a change we want to see implemented and a discussion of how we'd like it, in scope and complexity it has become a full rework which is either a pipedream or fit for gw3. The base health difference has been there since launch and I don't see it going anytime soon. It creates risk with using certain professions, diversifying amulets used and allow for multiple roles (with uniform values all would run zerker, if anyone could tank on node they would) which pretty much seems intended, and it gives flavour to the professions. But don't make the mistake of thinking it's the cause of the current balance issues, as it's quite far down the list showcased by how the core game was balanced before HoT.

    So the other classes cant use hybrid amulets? Should we lock amulets to classes? And there are builds for all classes in the game to be burstly its just some classes get "free" build in tanklyness to land that burst and not get one shot them self.

    The hp class balancing brakes down a lot in this game when you do look at classes who have high dmg build in to there effects but not the lowest hp but has def effect that makes it seems like they should be low hp classes such as mez.

    You just simply have classes who can run more dmg then others is what it comes down to purely because of there class having more hp.

    Easiest way to demonstrate is how a warrior won't be as effective as engi if both run celestial amulet - and they are designed that way. You can run any amulet, but that doesn't mean it's a good fit just like marauder on warrior is quite the waste.

    Yeah you get a free buid in there, but it's intended for them to take longer to kill, it's even reflected in traits and skill flavour - which is the point I've been trying to make all along. This in turn leads to low hp professions to build for added sustain while high hp professions turn more glassy.

    Yeah some can build for more damage, but stats are a minor component in this game when it comes to mitigation. You can build full tank and still go down eventually. In the end it comes down to time to kill, how you handle an outnumber and how much you can facetank - all decided by base hp.

    Eng is a mid hp class so it too is part of the hp imbalance.

    You can use any base hp variant you want. You can swap engi for necro in the prevous example, or compare Guardian to Mesmer (more healing oriented), the result is the same either way - that some professions benefit more from certain stats than others, whereof base health is a major deciding factor for the defensive ones. That's without even taking into account how condition damage affects different health values, scaling coefficients or viability as a whole.

    But to be fair I get your argument because at a glance it seems unnecessary, however once you start taking traits and available skill types into the equation it starts to spin a out of control. T

    hen those two would be the only deciding factor of a builds sustain. The bright side here is amulet choice would matter more since they are no longer needed to cover a deficit, but this too would lead to a locked meta where everyone use zerker f.ex - simply because else you can't kill the squishier professions anymore. A druid running permaprotection would now have direct 33% advantage over a thief at all times, support specs would contribute even less to overall pressure and all of a sudden condition builds require 2x the effort to bring down 7/9 professions, any healing skill would be reduced in efficacy by 50% on average and the balance would more than ever favor the profession who has access to innate boons and effects - something base health is the only prohibiting factor of as it currently stands.

    You say some professions get a free build. Why doesn't everyone play them then? Because of roles that need to be filled. What decides your role? Base health mostly. Without it we would enter the tankiest node-sustain meta you can imagine, way worse than in the HoT days where people cap a node and stay there until the game times out. The winners will be the ones who get the first and only kill.

    So is hp the balancing tool for def or not then? Is it hp or is it def skills because all classes have def skill in one way or another.

    At the end of the day if you have more hp you can build higher dmg every class has there means of saying alive for a moment but your still going to take dmg from reaction effect like retal burning on blocks etc.. things that you cant build for but for say your hp.

    An ele thf and gurd should do more dmg because they lack hp that say a war has so these classes most often build with some def in mind. Classes like necro war and ranger can build with raw dmg in mind because they get "free" hp. You can say the same for mez eng and rev but its not as bad from the hp point of view.

    As long as only def effect of hp very from class to class the game will always be not balanced.

    The more free hp a class has the more zerker meta you will see that why the thing back in the day every one was able to build ok hp and def because of how trait lines worked. If any thing the high hp classes are still stuck in the zerker meta the other classes have to build with hp or some other type of def combo in mind.

    @Nimon.7840 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:
    If anet must have class base hp balancing (some classes simply have more hp because they are one class or another) why not have power base work the same way?

    This game is very much HP dependent on how well your class can stay alive as most classes have the ability to full heal after a burst hit when some one or npc finds there way though evasion blocks and invabitly that all classes have. Its if you get one shot or not that makes your class a glass build or not. The thing is if your class has high hp to start with you simply get "free" room to go more dmg vs the class with low hp who will need to be an "if hit goes down" build or must give up dmg to not be a one hit build.

    Why not let low hp classes be rewarded for this risk?

    What risk?
    Low hp classes have a lot of evades or blocks or general mobility.

    The only class that would get hit and nerfed super hard by this would be necro that has no defenses other than his healthbar (and his "second health bar" that isn't a health bar because it degenerates while infight.

    If you'd do this you would also have to keep different armor value from different armor classes in mind.

    So guard would stay the same as it has heavy armor but low health
    Necro would stay the same: light armor but high health
    Warrior would be nerfed, high health, heavy armor
    Ele would be buffed, low health, light armor.

    Not a very well thought post.

    @rng.1024 and @Jski.6180
    But back to blocks and so on. Would ele then be nerfed because it has a lot of evades? And necro be buffed because it doesn't have a single block or dodge?

    Blocks/invuln and evades provide infinite dmg reduction while health doesn't

    But please, before making such suggestions, please use your brain and consider, what effect such changes would have for all classes!

    I mean war has blocks and evasion so its not a low hp class vs high hp class type of balancing point.

    Yeah. That's something I don't understand, war has kinda good sustain, high health, blocks, invulns, mobility, evade.

    The whole base hp thing is kinda old fashioned. Yes. From core game.

    Dmg got higher (and I believe cutting dmg and healing into half in pvp modes should be the way to go)
    But. And that's a huge but. If you take the most common ele build right now. If it's well played you will survive 1v2 or even 1v3 fights in wvw. If you now give that build more dmg or more hp, it would be totally busted op. As ele has very good protection uptime + sustain (healing) + evades and blocks/invuln.

    Yes. I would like to see some tweaks. But you have to keep a lot of factors in mind.
    For example if you do some tweaks, you have to give necro blocks, more mobility or invulns as well. As its sustain is very bad (well you can build for it, but it's not worth compared to other classes. if you invest the same stats as other classes do, you will get much less out of it. Or if you heavily build for it, you will never ever be able to kill someone, while other classes still can)

    It should be noted that the sword weaver builds get a larger HP pool than other ele builds already, because of the master's fortitude adept trait. If they removed that trait and made ele always have a medium HP pool it would not affect the tanky sword builds that much. However, it would be a very much needed buff for every other ele weapon.

  • rng.1024rng.1024 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Crab Fear.1624 said:

    @rng.1024 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @rng.1024 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @rng.1024 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @rng.1024 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @rng.1024 said:
    There are alot more factors at play than just power vs base health.

    The more fair option would be to f.ex increase base armor, and then scale it inversely with base health. This would mean low hp character can better negate a burst than a high hp character, who in turn has more health to sustain prolonged exposure to damage.

    What I mean by factors is how not all professions have equal access to power based weapon skills, high coefficients or active damage mitigation. What this means is basically with half the power removed, they will either not be able to kill anything no matter what, find ways to get perma mightstacks rendering the change moot or whittle you down anyways.

    What's important here is to separate that which is scaleable and that which isn't. If warrior can kill you with a 2 shot combo, increasing it to 4 doesn't necessarily mean you'll survive it any easier, it just means he has to work harder - which is starting to become a common theme of core builds f.ex. The point is that if you don't dodge that first cc it's over anyways, so any further nerfing will make no difference, especially as you will be just as squishy.

    This game is all about active mitigation at this point, 4-5 years ago numbers still could swing fights but not anymore with the powercreep. This is why we get the two camps of those who avoid getting hit by big skills and think the game is fine, and those that try to tank it and is annoyed by the damage. Notice how one is scaleable and the other is not.

    But why not let the lower hp class kill faster then the war class whom has high hp?

    As for coefficients it seems to over complex balancing when you can just standardize coefficients but have power very from class to class letting the player have much more control over there builds. Also 1 power for one class should be the same effect as another class or your always going to have massive imbalance.

    Because the entire point of differing base health is to adjust time to kill to begin with - meaning warrior and necro are supposed to take a while to kill. The reason elementalist, thief and guardian have such a low healthpool, is to promote use of more hybrid amulets. You really want to give support guardian 9k more health? Or a FA ele who can burst from range more defense? Thief with mobility and stealth becoming 45% harder to pin down?

    I've been playing with the same idea, that we could uniform coefficients and weapon skill cooldowns for a more predictable outcome. But then let's look at warrior for example, who has quite the low attacks/s. Compared to mesmer, who has fairly high a/s the warrior would always struggle and you create favourable matchups - which is what the expansions were made to remove.

    At this point however, it's no longer a change we want to see implemented and a discussion of how we'd like it, in scope and complexity it has become a full rework which is either a pipedream or fit for gw3. The base health difference has been there since launch and I don't see it going anytime soon. It creates risk with using certain professions, diversifying amulets used and allow for multiple roles (with uniform values all would run zerker, if anyone could tank on node they would) which pretty much seems intended, and it gives flavour to the professions. But don't make the mistake of thinking it's the cause of the current balance issues, as it's quite far down the list showcased by how the core game was balanced before HoT.

    So the other classes cant use hybrid amulets? Should we lock amulets to classes? And there are builds for all classes in the game to be burstly its just some classes get "free" build in tanklyness to land that burst and not get one shot them self.

    The hp class balancing brakes down a lot in this game when you do look at classes who have high dmg build in to there effects but not the lowest hp but has def effect that makes it seems like they should be low hp classes such as mez.

    You just simply have classes who can run more dmg then others is what it comes down to purely because of there class having more hp.

    Easiest way to demonstrate is how a warrior won't be as effective as engi if both run celestial amulet - and they are designed that way. You can run any amulet, but that doesn't mean it's a good fit just like marauder on warrior is quite the waste.

    Yeah you get a free buid in there, but it's intended for them to take longer to kill, it's even reflected in traits and skill flavour - which is the point I've been trying to make all along. This in turn leads to low hp professions to build for added sustain while high hp professions turn more glassy.

    Yeah some can build for more damage, but stats are a minor component in this game when it comes to mitigation. You can build full tank and still go down eventually. In the end it comes down to time to kill, how you handle an outnumber and how much you can facetank - all decided by base hp.

    Eng is a mid hp class so it too is part of the hp imbalance.

    You can use any base hp variant you want. You can swap engi for necro in the prevous example, or compare Guardian to Mesmer (more healing oriented), the result is the same either way - that some professions benefit more from certain stats than others, whereof base health is a major deciding factor for the defensive ones. That's without even taking into account how condition damage affects different health values, scaling coefficients or viability as a whole.

    But to be fair I get your argument because at a glance it seems unnecessary, however once you start taking traits and available skill types into the equation it starts to spin a out of control. T

    hen those two would be the only deciding factor of a builds sustain. The bright side here is amulet choice would matter more since they are no longer needed to cover a deficit, but this too would lead to a locked meta where everyone use zerker f.ex - simply because else you can't kill the squishier professions anymore. A druid running permaprotection would now have direct 33% advantage over a thief at all times, support specs would contribute even less to overall pressure and all of a sudden condition builds require 2x the effort to bring down 7/9 professions, any healing skill would be reduced in efficacy by 50% on average and the balance would more than ever favor the profession who has access to innate boons and effects - something base health is the only prohibiting factor of as it currently stands.

    You say some professions get a free build. Why doesn't everyone play them then? Because of roles that need to be filled. What decides your role? Base health mostly. Without it we would enter the tankiest node-sustain meta you can imagine, way worse than in the HoT days where people cap a node and stay there until the game times out. The winners will be the ones who get the first and only kill.

    So is hp the balancing tool for def or not then? Is it hp or is it def skills because all classes have def skill in one way or another.

    At the end of the day if you have more hp you can build higher dmg every class has there means of saying alive for a moment but your still going to take dmg from reaction effect like retal burning on blocks etc.. things that you cant build for but for say your hp.

    An ele thf and gurd should do more dmg because they lack hp that say a war has so these classes most often build with some def in mind. Classes like necro war and ranger can build with raw dmg in mind because they get "free" hp. You can say the same for mez eng and rev but its not as bad from the hp point of view.

    As long as only def effect of hp very from class to class the game will always be not balanced.

    The more free hp a class has the more zerker meta you will see that why the thing back in the day every one was able to build ok hp and def because of how trait lines worked. If any thing the high hp classes are still stuck in the zerker meta the other classes have to build with hp or some other type of def combo in mind.

    @Nimon.7840 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:
    If anet must have class base hp balancing (some classes simply have more hp because they are one class or another) why not have power base work the same way?

    This game is very much HP dependent on how well your class can stay alive as most classes have the ability to full heal after a burst hit when some one or npc finds there way though evasion blocks and invabitly that all classes have. Its if you get one shot or not that makes your class a glass build or not. The thing is if your class has high hp to start with you simply get "free" room to go more dmg vs the class with low hp who will need to be an "if hit goes down" build or must give up dmg to not be a one hit build.

    Why not let low hp classes be rewarded for this risk?

    What risk?
    Low hp classes have a lot of evades or blocks or general mobility.

    The only class that would get hit and nerfed super hard by this would be necro that has no defenses other than his healthbar (and his "second health bar" that isn't a health bar because it degenerates while infight.

    If you'd do this you would also have to keep different armor value from different armor classes in mind.

    So guard would stay the same as it has heavy armor but low health
    Necro would stay the same: light armor but high health
    Warrior would be nerfed, high health, heavy armor
    Ele would be buffed, low health, light armor.

    Not a very well thought post.

    @rng.1024 and @Jski.6180
    But back to blocks and so on. Would ele then be nerfed because it has a lot of evades? And necro be buffed because it doesn't have a single block or dodge?

    Blocks/invuln and evades provide infinite dmg reduction while health doesn't

    But please, before making such suggestions, please use your brain and consider, what effect such changes would have for all classes!

    I mean war has blocks and evasion so its not a low hp class vs high hp class type of balancing point.

    If you honestly believe a thief f.ex is supposed to trade blow for blow with a warrior, then I'm not sure what game you are playing. Yes hp is the major balance factor.

    Take a look at meta warrior - do you really feel it builds for excessive damage? Or meta scourge for that matter?

    No it wasn't the old traits that kept things under control, it was less AoE, less range, harder to achieve might stacking and fewer defensive options, as well as less spammy damage introduced with elite specs which just added upon weapons. Why would there be a zerker meta you think? More defense would still win out if we increase people's health, even moreso because instead of going up against someone with 25% less health but an amulet with 20% more toughness, you would now be up against someone with the same health as you but 20% more toughness - meaning unless you do 20% more damage (which is way more than from zerker to marauder) then you will by numbers alone already lose if you trade blows.

    I honestly believe thief is supposed to drop everyones drawers in a 1 v 1.

    Since that ain't the case, all I can say.....

    Buff Thief

    Hehe, I'm not objecting to that ;)

  • rng.1024rng.1024 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @rng.1024 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @rng.1024 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @rng.1024 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @rng.1024 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @rng.1024 said:
    There are alot more factors at play than just power vs base health.

    The more fair option would be to f.ex increase base armor, and then scale it inversely with base health. This would mean low hp character can better negate a burst than a high hp character, who in turn has more health to sustain prolonged exposure to damage.

    What I mean by factors is how not all professions have equal access to power based weapon skills, high coefficients or active damage mitigation. What this means is basically with half the power removed, they will either not be able to kill anything no matter what, find ways to get perma mightstacks rendering the change moot or whittle you down anyways.

    What's important here is to separate that which is scaleable and that which isn't. If warrior can kill you with a 2 shot combo, increasing it to 4 doesn't necessarily mean you'll survive it any easier, it just means he has to work harder - which is starting to become a common theme of core builds f.ex. The point is that if you don't dodge that first cc it's over anyways, so any further nerfing will make no difference, especially as you will be just as squishy.

    This game is all about active mitigation at this point, 4-5 years ago numbers still could swing fights but not anymore with the powercreep. This is why we get the two camps of those who avoid getting hit by big skills and think the game is fine, and those that try to tank it and is annoyed by the damage. Notice how one is scaleable and the other is not.

    But why not let the lower hp class kill faster then the war class whom has high hp?

    As for coefficients it seems to over complex balancing when you can just standardize coefficients but have power very from class to class letting the player have much more control over there builds. Also 1 power for one class should be the same effect as another class or your always going to have massive imbalance.

    Because the entire point of differing base health is to adjust time to kill to begin with - meaning warrior and necro are supposed to take a while to kill. The reason elementalist, thief and guardian have such a low healthpool, is to promote use of more hybrid amulets. You really want to give support guardian 9k more health? Or a FA ele who can burst from range more defense? Thief with mobility and stealth becoming 45% harder to pin down?

    I've been playing with the same idea, that we could uniform coefficients and weapon skill cooldowns for a more predictable outcome. But then let's look at warrior for example, who has quite the low attacks/s. Compared to mesmer, who has fairly high a/s the warrior would always struggle and you create favourable matchups - which is what the expansions were made to remove.

    At this point however, it's no longer a change we want to see implemented and a discussion of how we'd like it, in scope and complexity it has become a full rework which is either a pipedream or fit for gw3. The base health difference has been there since launch and I don't see it going anytime soon. It creates risk with using certain professions, diversifying amulets used and allow for multiple roles (with uniform values all would run zerker, if anyone could tank on node they would) which pretty much seems intended, and it gives flavour to the professions. But don't make the mistake of thinking it's the cause of the current balance issues, as it's quite far down the list showcased by how the core game was balanced before HoT.

    So the other classes cant use hybrid amulets? Should we lock amulets to classes? And there are builds for all classes in the game to be burstly its just some classes get "free" build in tanklyness to land that burst and not get one shot them self.

    The hp class balancing brakes down a lot in this game when you do look at classes who have high dmg build in to there effects but not the lowest hp but has def effect that makes it seems like they should be low hp classes such as mez.

    You just simply have classes who can run more dmg then others is what it comes down to purely because of there class having more hp.

    Easiest way to demonstrate is how a warrior won't be as effective as engi if both run celestial amulet - and they are designed that way. You can run any amulet, but that doesn't mean it's a good fit just like marauder on warrior is quite the waste.

    Yeah you get a free buid in there, but it's intended for them to take longer to kill, it's even reflected in traits and skill flavour - which is the point I've been trying to make all along. This in turn leads to low hp professions to build for added sustain while high hp professions turn more glassy.

    Yeah some can build for more damage, but stats are a minor component in this game when it comes to mitigation. You can build full tank and still go down eventually. In the end it comes down to time to kill, how you handle an outnumber and how much you can facetank - all decided by base hp.

    Eng is a mid hp class so it too is part of the hp imbalance.

    You can use any base hp variant you want. You can swap engi for necro in the prevous example, or compare Guardian to Mesmer (more healing oriented), the result is the same either way - that some professions benefit more from certain stats than others, whereof base health is a major deciding factor for the defensive ones. That's without even taking into account how condition damage affects different health values, scaling coefficients or viability as a whole.

    But to be fair I get your argument because at a glance it seems unnecessary, however once you start taking traits and available skill types into the equation it starts to spin a out of control. T

    hen those two would be the only deciding factor of a builds sustain. The bright side here is amulet choice would matter more since they are no longer needed to cover a deficit, but this too would lead to a locked meta where everyone use zerker f.ex - simply because else you can't kill the squishier professions anymore. A druid running permaprotection would now have direct 33% advantage over a thief at all times, support specs would contribute even less to overall pressure and all of a sudden condition builds require 2x the effort to bring down 7/9 professions, any healing skill would be reduced in efficacy by 50% on average and the balance would more than ever favor the profession who has access to innate boons and effects - something base health is the only prohibiting factor of as it currently stands.

    You say some professions get a free build. Why doesn't everyone play them then? Because of roles that need to be filled. What decides your role? Base health mostly. Without it we would enter the tankiest node-sustain meta you can imagine, way worse than in the HoT days where people cap a node and stay there until the game times out. The winners will be the ones who get the first and only kill.

    So is hp the balancing tool for def or not then? Is it hp or is it def skills because all classes have def skill in one way or another.

    At the end of the day if you have more hp you can build higher dmg every class has there means of saying alive for a moment but your still going to take dmg from reaction effect like retal burning on blocks etc.. things that you cant build for but for say your hp.

    An ele thf and gurd should do more dmg because they lack hp that say a war has so these classes most often build with some def in mind. Classes like necro war and ranger can build with raw dmg in mind because they get "free" hp. You can say the same for mez eng and rev but its not as bad from the hp point of view.

    As long as only def effect of hp very from class to class the game will always be not balanced.

    The more free hp a class has the more zerker meta you will see that why the thing back in the day every one was able to build ok hp and def because of how trait lines worked. If any thing the high hp classes are still stuck in the zerker meta the other classes have to build with hp or some other type of def combo in mind.

    @Nimon.7840 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:
    If anet must have class base hp balancing (some classes simply have more hp because they are one class or another) why not have power base work the same way?

    This game is very much HP dependent on how well your class can stay alive as most classes have the ability to full heal after a burst hit when some one or npc finds there way though evasion blocks and invabitly that all classes have. Its if you get one shot or not that makes your class a glass build or not. The thing is if your class has high hp to start with you simply get "free" room to go more dmg vs the class with low hp who will need to be an "if hit goes down" build or must give up dmg to not be a one hit build.

    Why not let low hp classes be rewarded for this risk?

    What risk?
    Low hp classes have a lot of evades or blocks or general mobility.

    The only class that would get hit and nerfed super hard by this would be necro that has no defenses other than his healthbar (and his "second health bar" that isn't a health bar because it degenerates while infight.

    If you'd do this you would also have to keep different armor value from different armor classes in mind.

    So guard would stay the same as it has heavy armor but low health
    Necro would stay the same: light armor but high health
    Warrior would be nerfed, high health, heavy armor
    Ele would be buffed, low health, light armor.

    Not a very well thought post.

    @rng.1024 and @Jski.6180
    But back to blocks and so on. Would ele then be nerfed because it has a lot of evades? And necro be buffed because it doesn't have a single block or dodge?

    Blocks/invuln and evades provide infinite dmg reduction while health doesn't

    But please, before making such suggestions, please use your brain and consider, what effect such changes would have for all classes!

    I mean war has blocks and evasion so its not a low hp class vs high hp class type of balancing point.

    If you honestly believe a thief f.ex is supposed to trade blow for blow with a warrior, then I'm not sure what game you are playing. Yes hp is the major balance factor.

    Take a look at meta warrior - do you really feel it builds for excessive damage? Or meta scourge for that matter?

    No it wasn't the old traits that kept things under control, it was less AoE, less range, harder to achieve might stacking and fewer defensive options, as well as less spammy damage introduced with elite specs which just added upon weapons. Why would there be a zerker meta you think? More defense would still win out if we increase people's health, even moreso because instead of going up against someone with 25% less health but an amulet with 20% more toughness, you would now be up against someone with the same health as you but 20% more toughness - meaning unless you do 20% more damage (which is way more than from zerker to marauder) then you will by numbers alone already lose if you trade blows.

    I think a thf should hit a lot harder then a war and a war should not be able to last long vs a thf who set up to land the first blow.

    I think warrior can go too far into dmg with out going glass in how much max hp it has.

    There was a lot of aoe in the old gw2 but your trate lines gave you your hp power etc.. not your gear so you could go full zerk and still be some what tankly. That not in the game any more but classes who have build in high hp are still able to go all in dmg and still be tankly were the low hp classes must build tankly but often do not get dmg to make up for the hp wall that they must eat though to kill the high hp classes.

    All classes have skill to deal with dmg as well as healing and its getting worst with each update to this game. From both the elites they added in new combo in gear and new runes set. Would you like some healing with your taking 0 dmg with you life steal with you endless stab ending condi clear and barriers?

    You can build for massive damage on thief with crit strikes, marauder amulet and signet. The option is there but not used too much. Besides you are talking dp, not sd which is meant for debilitation more than burst. So it can hit way harder, just because you don't choose to doesn't justify any buffs.

    Glass? First off, demolisher isn't glass. Defence line isn't glass. Tactics line has 1 damage trait. Might makes right is everything other than glass, but you can simply avoid the f1 and it's a free kill in a much lower time than a sword 2 and 3 abusing thief. Sure they can - but when did you last see a zerker warrior in anything above silver? (Excluding the yolo berserkers testing the patch dmg)

    Everybody lost trait stats with that change. How did that get unbalanced in your opinion? It's not like you buildt for the stats, so most of the time it was random and arbitrary anyways. It's come back recently with some weapon traits anyways, and I can't really say they make or break anything. We now also have runes that give 125 extra points and 10% health bonuses, sorry to say these together more than make up for any deficit. If your argument then is core traits vs elite specs then base hp has nothing to do with the equation.

  • rng.1024rng.1024 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @otto.5684 said:
    @Crab Fear.1624 Thief, by design, cannot be top 1v1 due to mobility.

    @rng.1024 You keep saying that HP pools will turn meta into bunker, yet you never demonstrate how. Also, do you think when we raise the HP pools will give classes 50k HP? It will probably be under 7-8k for low HP pool and under 3k for large HP pool. Do you really think that SB with 22-23k HP will turn meta into bunker? However, thief in berserker surely will impact the meta. If we put HP pools:

    Large at 22k
    Medium at 20k
    Small at 18k

    I expect TTK will decrease a bit for SB, scourge, holo and scrapper. These builds already dominate sPvP now. This change should shift the meta to higher damage, since thief and guardians will torch builds like scrapper, if they are using berserker gear. FB will be the only outlier, which could easily be fixed with a direct nerf.

    It is worth to repoint our that currently the meta is dominated by SB, soul beast, holo, scrapper, scourge, herald and FB. There is a common thread between these builds, large HP pool or medium HP pool with significant other sustain tools (except FB support, which still runs 15k HP base with honor GM trait).

    Let me walk you through it:

    • Everyone get a high health pool
    • Everyone can now equally hold a node since matchups matter less
    • Basically instead of waiting for a duelist to hold the node, a roamer can do it. The support no longer needs to rotate and can just stay at 1 node. Every fight will now last longer because more hp, and this will result in new builds that can resustain through this window - more duelists.
    • These will engage in endless fights on nodes which a zerker spec is the only one able to +1, but at a huge risk to it's team because of how easily it is outsustained and the only one not able to handle a +1.
    • Not only that, but because hp pools got bigger +1 will be much less effective aswell.
    • This leads to a full bunker meta bbecause experience shows we rather want to play it safe than play around when it comes to ranked games.

    Explain how ttk will be decreased if everyone else get up to 40% more health? No one gets more damage either, so it doesn't work the other way around either.

    Guardian has always been meta with the lowest healthpool btw. Tempest too during HoT. Thief for the longest time in several forms. That base hp is the meta-deciding factor clearly isn't the case here.

  • Crab Fear.1624Crab Fear.1624 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 13, 2019

    @otto.5684 said:
    @Crab Fear.1624 Thief, by design, cannot be top 1v1 due to mobility.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Thief

    While thief may not be 1 v 1 king right now, "by design" they were supposed to be.

    Mobility is pretty much their only defensive tool. It's either that or stealth.

    Quoted from the link:

    "Thieves are less powerful in terms of durability in comparison to some professions. They must rely on stealth, evasion, surprise attacks, and debilitating and damaging conditions to overpower their opponents."

    Considering most of their attacks are essentially single target, meaning they cant blow up multiple enemies and cover a point with face melting AOE...

    BY DESIGN they really should be a top 1 v 1.

    The mobility is closely matched by any class considered a "side noder".

    Edit: Even though I pretty much hate the class, the only other one that mentions 1 v 1 supremacy in their "design" is Mesmer. It literally says they are a magical duelist.
    https://guildwars2.com/en/the-game/professions/mesmer/

    I mean one of their core trait lines is called Dueling too...

    Soon™ ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

  • Aza.2105Aza.2105 Member ✭✭✭

    I think class health tiers are a bit outdated, Anet should extend health tiers to elite specializations. For example, maybe Dragon Hunter would be in the 19k health tier while base guardian and fb wouldn't be.

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Crab Fear.1624 said:

    @otto.5684 said:
    @Crab Fear.1624 Thief, by design, cannot be top 1v1 due to mobility.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Thief

    While thief may not be 1 v 1 king right now, "by design" they were supposed to be.

    Mobility is pretty much their only defensive tool. It's either that or stealth.

    Quoted from the link:

    "Thieves are less powerful in terms of durability in comparison to some professions. They must rely on stealth, evasion, surprise attacks, and debilitating and damaging conditions to overpower their opponents."

    Considering most of their attacks are essentially single target, meaning they cant blow up multiple enemies and cover a point with face melting AOE...

    BY DESIGN they really should be a top 1 v 1.

    The mobility is closely matched by any class considered a "side noder".

    Edit: Even though I pretty much hate the class, the only other one that mentions 1 v 1 supremacy in their "design" is Mesmer. It literally says they are a magical duelist.
    https://guildwars2.com/en/the-game/professions/mesmer/

    I mean one of their core trait lines is called Dueling too...

    Problem is and has been everything bolded makes sense and is basically how most rogue classes are handled but unfortunately that playstyle causes salt among players and instead of some how not realizing that from the start and making changes keeping in mind players still need to play the class successfully anet listened far too much to nerf whines and resulted in almost everything that's bolded in ur post not only being nerfed but tools given to other classes to counter them on top of out right giving other classes the same skills as thief lmao example being stealth,ports etc. They let the non thief players basically push them to change thief into a class that doesnt even fit their in game description anymore lol

  • Jski.6180Jski.6180 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @rng.1024 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @rng.1024 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @rng.1024 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @rng.1024 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @rng.1024 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @rng.1024 said:
    There are alot more factors at play than just power vs base health.

    The more fair option would be to f.ex increase base armor, and then scale it inversely with base health. This would mean low hp character can better negate a burst than a high hp character, who in turn has more health to sustain prolonged exposure to damage.

    What I mean by factors is how not all professions have equal access to power based weapon skills, high coefficients or active damage mitigation. What this means is basically with half the power removed, they will either not be able to kill anything no matter what, find ways to get perma mightstacks rendering the change moot or whittle you down anyways.

    What's important here is to separate that which is scaleable and that which isn't. If warrior can kill you with a 2 shot combo, increasing it to 4 doesn't necessarily mean you'll survive it any easier, it just means he has to work harder - which is starting to become a common theme of core builds f.ex. The point is that if you don't dodge that first cc it's over anyways, so any further nerfing will make no difference, especially as you will be just as squishy.

    This game is all about active mitigation at this point, 4-5 years ago numbers still could swing fights but not anymore with the powercreep. This is why we get the two camps of those who avoid getting hit by big skills and think the game is fine, and those that try to tank it and is annoyed by the damage. Notice how one is scaleable and the other is not.

    But why not let the lower hp class kill faster then the war class whom has high hp?

    As for coefficients it seems to over complex balancing when you can just standardize coefficients but have power very from class to class letting the player have much more control over there builds. Also 1 power for one class should be the same effect as another class or your always going to have massive imbalance.

    Because the entire point of differing base health is to adjust time to kill to begin with - meaning warrior and necro are supposed to take a while to kill. The reason elementalist, thief and guardian have such a low healthpool, is to promote use of more hybrid amulets. You really want to give support guardian 9k more health? Or a FA ele who can burst from range more defense? Thief with mobility and stealth becoming 45% harder to pin down?

    I've been playing with the same idea, that we could uniform coefficients and weapon skill cooldowns for a more predictable outcome. But then let's look at warrior for example, who has quite the low attacks/s. Compared to mesmer, who has fairly high a/s the warrior would always struggle and you create favourable matchups - which is what the expansions were made to remove.

    At this point however, it's no longer a change we want to see implemented and a discussion of how we'd like it, in scope and complexity it has become a full rework which is either a pipedream or fit for gw3. The base health difference has been there since launch and I don't see it going anytime soon. It creates risk with using certain professions, diversifying amulets used and allow for multiple roles (with uniform values all would run zerker, if anyone could tank on node they would) which pretty much seems intended, and it gives flavour to the professions. But don't make the mistake of thinking it's the cause of the current balance issues, as it's quite far down the list showcased by how the core game was balanced before HoT.

    So the other classes cant use hybrid amulets? Should we lock amulets to classes? And there are builds for all classes in the game to be burstly its just some classes get "free" build in tanklyness to land that burst and not get one shot them self.

    The hp class balancing brakes down a lot in this game when you do look at classes who have high dmg build in to there effects but not the lowest hp but has def effect that makes it seems like they should be low hp classes such as mez.

    You just simply have classes who can run more dmg then others is what it comes down to purely because of there class having more hp.

    Easiest way to demonstrate is how a warrior won't be as effective as engi if both run celestial amulet - and they are designed that way. You can run any amulet, but that doesn't mean it's a good fit just like marauder on warrior is quite the waste.

    Yeah you get a free buid in there, but it's intended for them to take longer to kill, it's even reflected in traits and skill flavour - which is the point I've been trying to make all along. This in turn leads to low hp professions to build for added sustain while high hp professions turn more glassy.

    Yeah some can build for more damage, but stats are a minor component in this game when it comes to mitigation. You can build full tank and still go down eventually. In the end it comes down to time to kill, how you handle an outnumber and how much you can facetank - all decided by base hp.

    Eng is a mid hp class so it too is part of the hp imbalance.

    You can use any base hp variant you want. You can swap engi for necro in the prevous example, or compare Guardian to Mesmer (more healing oriented), the result is the same either way - that some professions benefit more from certain stats than others, whereof base health is a major deciding factor for the defensive ones. That's without even taking into account how condition damage affects different health values, scaling coefficients or viability as a whole.

    But to be fair I get your argument because at a glance it seems unnecessary, however once you start taking traits and available skill types into the equation it starts to spin a out of control. T

    hen those two would be the only deciding factor of a builds sustain. The bright side here is amulet choice would matter more since they are no longer needed to cover a deficit, but this too would lead to a locked meta where everyone use zerker f.ex - simply because else you can't kill the squishier professions anymore. A druid running permaprotection would now have direct 33% advantage over a thief at all times, support specs would contribute even less to overall pressure and all of a sudden condition builds require 2x the effort to bring down 7/9 professions, any healing skill would be reduced in efficacy by 50% on average and the balance would more than ever favor the profession who has access to innate boons and effects - something base health is the only prohibiting factor of as it currently stands.

    You say some professions get a free build. Why doesn't everyone play them then? Because of roles that need to be filled. What decides your role? Base health mostly. Without it we would enter the tankiest node-sustain meta you can imagine, way worse than in the HoT days where people cap a node and stay there until the game times out. The winners will be the ones who get the first and only kill.

    So is hp the balancing tool for def or not then? Is it hp or is it def skills because all classes have def skill in one way or another.

    At the end of the day if you have more hp you can build higher dmg every class has there means of saying alive for a moment but your still going to take dmg from reaction effect like retal burning on blocks etc.. things that you cant build for but for say your hp.

    An ele thf and gurd should do more dmg because they lack hp that say a war has so these classes most often build with some def in mind. Classes like necro war and ranger can build with raw dmg in mind because they get "free" hp. You can say the same for mez eng and rev but its not as bad from the hp point of view.

    As long as only def effect of hp very from class to class the game will always be not balanced.

    The more free hp a class has the more zerker meta you will see that why the thing back in the day every one was able to build ok hp and def because of how trait lines worked. If any thing the high hp classes are still stuck in the zerker meta the other classes have to build with hp or some other type of def combo in mind.

    @Nimon.7840 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:
    If anet must have class base hp balancing (some classes simply have more hp because they are one class or another) why not have power base work the same way?

    This game is very much HP dependent on how well your class can stay alive as most classes have the ability to full heal after a burst hit when some one or npc finds there way though evasion blocks and invabitly that all classes have. Its if you get one shot or not that makes your class a glass build or not. The thing is if your class has high hp to start with you simply get "free" room to go more dmg vs the class with low hp who will need to be an "if hit goes down" build or must give up dmg to not be a one hit build.

    Why not let low hp classes be rewarded for this risk?

    What risk?
    Low hp classes have a lot of evades or blocks or general mobility.

    The only class that would get hit and nerfed super hard by this would be necro that has no defenses other than his healthbar (and his "second health bar" that isn't a health bar because it degenerates while infight.

    If you'd do this you would also have to keep different armor value from different armor classes in mind.

    So guard would stay the same as it has heavy armor but low health
    Necro would stay the same: light armor but high health
    Warrior would be nerfed, high health, heavy armor
    Ele would be buffed, low health, light armor.

    Not a very well thought post.

    @rng.1024 and @Jski.6180
    But back to blocks and so on. Would ele then be nerfed because it has a lot of evades? And necro be buffed because it doesn't have a single block or dodge?

    Blocks/invuln and evades provide infinite dmg reduction while health doesn't

    But please, before making such suggestions, please use your brain and consider, what effect such changes would have for all classes!

    I mean war has blocks and evasion so its not a low hp class vs high hp class type of balancing point.

    If you honestly believe a thief f.ex is supposed to trade blow for blow with a warrior, then I'm not sure what game you are playing. Yes hp is the major balance factor.

    Take a look at meta warrior - do you really feel it builds for excessive damage? Or meta scourge for that matter?

    No it wasn't the old traits that kept things under control, it was less AoE, less range, harder to achieve might stacking and fewer defensive options, as well as less spammy damage introduced with elite specs which just added upon weapons. Why would there be a zerker meta you think? More defense would still win out if we increase people's health, even moreso because instead of going up against someone with 25% less health but an amulet with 20% more toughness, you would now be up against someone with the same health as you but 20% more toughness - meaning unless you do 20% more damage (which is way more than from zerker to marauder) then you will by numbers alone already lose if you trade blows.

    I think a thf should hit a lot harder then a war and a war should not be able to last long vs a thf who set up to land the first blow.

    I think warrior can go too far into dmg with out going glass in how much max hp it has.

    There was a lot of aoe in the old gw2 but your trate lines gave you your hp power etc.. not your gear so you could go full zerk and still be some what tankly. That not in the game any more but classes who have build in high hp are still able to go all in dmg and still be tankly were the low hp classes must build tankly but often do not get dmg to make up for the hp wall that they must eat though to kill the high hp classes.

    All classes have skill to deal with dmg as well as healing and its getting worst with each update to this game. From both the elites they added in new combo in gear and new runes set. Would you like some healing with your taking 0 dmg with you life steal with you endless stab ending condi clear and barriers?

    You can build for massive damage on thief with crit strikes, marauder amulet and signet. The option is there but not used too much. Besides you are talking dp, not sd which is meant for debilitation more than burst. So it can hit way harder, just because you don't choose to doesn't justify any buffs.

    Glass? First off, demolisher isn't glass. Defence line isn't glass. Tactics line has 1 damage trait. Might makes right is everything other than glass, but you can simply avoid the f1 and it's a free kill in a much lower time than a sword 2 and 3 abusing thief. Sure they can - but when did you last see a zerker warrior in anything above silver? (Excluding the yolo berserkers testing the patch dmg)

    Everybody lost trait stats with that change. How did that get unbalanced in your opinion? It's not like you buildt for the stats, so most of the time it was random and arbitrary anyways. It's come back recently with some weapon traits anyways, and I can't really say they make or break anything. We now also have runes that give 125 extra points and 10% health bonuses, sorry to say these together more than make up for any deficit. If your argument then is core traits vs elite specs then base hp has nothing to do with the equation.

    Cant you do that for all classes though its not like other classes have less power and less crit dmg. That kind of what i am getting at.

    Hp is the main effect in this game for glass or non glass and armor cant do any thing vs condi it also has a weird interaction with crit dmg that i do not comply understand.

    The trait line stats lost was never balanced out right for the class hp and power. Most classes who did power dmg aimed effect would take the power dmg line but often now the hp line giving you a real power dmg / hp balance with in there own classes. You lose a lot of dmg for that extra points and hp bonuses and high hp classes can use these effect just as well as low hp classes. But there is nothing like this for power and if there was only the high hp classes would run them as they have the base line hp not to be one shot letting there dmg -% skills trigger to keep them alive though most burst.

    Hp was some what balanced with the core classes due to the def skill but it was never that great war still has take 0 dmg as a core class but as they added in eleit spec they came with high def skill in fact from HoT to PoF its only gotten worst.

    So the only real fix is to very power from class to class base off of hp or you simply have classes who get free stats for just being that class over other classes who get less just for being that class. Its a simple have and have not argument.

    See ELE forms and you will get my views.

  • rng.1024rng.1024 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @rng.1024 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @rng.1024 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @rng.1024 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @rng.1024 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @rng.1024 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @rng.1024 said:
    There are alot more factors at play than just power vs base health.

    The more fair option would be to f.ex increase base armor, and then scale it inversely with base health. This would mean low hp character can better negate a burst than a high hp character, who in turn has more health to sustain prolonged exposure to damage.

    What I mean by factors is how not all professions have equal access to power based weapon skills, high coefficients or active damage mitigation. What this means is basically with half the power removed, they will either not be able to kill anything no matter what, find ways to get perma mightstacks rendering the change moot or whittle you down anyways.

    What's important here is to separate that which is scaleable and that which isn't. If warrior can kill you with a 2 shot combo, increasing it to 4 doesn't necessarily mean you'll survive it any easier, it just means he has to work harder - which is starting to become a common theme of core builds f.ex. The point is that if you don't dodge that first cc it's over anyways, so any further nerfing will make no difference, especially as you will be just as squishy.

    This game is all about active mitigation at this point, 4-5 years ago numbers still could swing fights but not anymore with the powercreep. This is why we get the two camps of those who avoid getting hit by big skills and think the game is fine, and those that try to tank it and is annoyed by the damage. Notice how one is scaleable and the other is not.

    But why not let the lower hp class kill faster then the war class whom has high hp?

    As for coefficients it seems to over complex balancing when you can just standardize coefficients but have power very from class to class letting the player have much more control over there builds. Also 1 power for one class should be the same effect as another class or your always going to have massive imbalance.

    Because the entire point of differing base health is to adjust time to kill to begin with - meaning warrior and necro are supposed to take a while to kill. The reason elementalist, thief and guardian have such a low healthpool, is to promote use of more hybrid amulets. You really want to give support guardian 9k more health? Or a FA ele who can burst from range more defense? Thief with mobility and stealth becoming 45% harder to pin down?

    I've been playing with the same idea, that we could uniform coefficients and weapon skill cooldowns for a more predictable outcome. But then let's look at warrior for example, who has quite the low attacks/s. Compared to mesmer, who has fairly high a/s the warrior would always struggle and you create favourable matchups - which is what the expansions were made to remove.

    At this point however, it's no longer a change we want to see implemented and a discussion of how we'd like it, in scope and complexity it has become a full rework which is either a pipedream or fit for gw3. The base health difference has been there since launch and I don't see it going anytime soon. It creates risk with using certain professions, diversifying amulets used and allow for multiple roles (with uniform values all would run zerker, if anyone could tank on node they would) which pretty much seems intended, and it gives flavour to the professions. But don't make the mistake of thinking it's the cause of the current balance issues, as it's quite far down the list showcased by how the core game was balanced before HoT.

    So the other classes cant use hybrid amulets? Should we lock amulets to classes? And there are builds for all classes in the game to be burstly its just some classes get "free" build in tanklyness to land that burst and not get one shot them self.

    The hp class balancing brakes down a lot in this game when you do look at classes who have high dmg build in to there effects but not the lowest hp but has def effect that makes it seems like they should be low hp classes such as mez.

    You just simply have classes who can run more dmg then others is what it comes down to purely because of there class having more hp.

    Easiest way to demonstrate is how a warrior won't be as effective as engi if both run celestial amulet - and they are designed that way. You can run any amulet, but that doesn't mean it's a good fit just like marauder on warrior is quite the waste.

    Yeah you get a free buid in there, but it's intended for them to take longer to kill, it's even reflected in traits and skill flavour - which is the point I've been trying to make all along. This in turn leads to low hp professions to build for added sustain while high hp professions turn more glassy.

    Yeah some can build for more damage, but stats are a minor component in this game when it comes to mitigation. You can build full tank and still go down eventually. In the end it comes down to time to kill, how you handle an outnumber and how much you can facetank - all decided by base hp.

    Eng is a mid hp class so it too is part of the hp imbalance.

    You can use any base hp variant you want. You can swap engi for necro in the prevous example, or compare Guardian to Mesmer (more healing oriented), the result is the same either way - that some professions benefit more from certain stats than others, whereof base health is a major deciding factor for the defensive ones. That's without even taking into account how condition damage affects different health values, scaling coefficients or viability as a whole.

    But to be fair I get your argument because at a glance it seems unnecessary, however once you start taking traits and available skill types into the equation it starts to spin a out of control. T

    hen those two would be the only deciding factor of a builds sustain. The bright side here is amulet choice would matter more since they are no longer needed to cover a deficit, but this too would lead to a locked meta where everyone use zerker f.ex - simply because else you can't kill the squishier professions anymore. A druid running permaprotection would now have direct 33% advantage over a thief at all times, support specs would contribute even less to overall pressure and all of a sudden condition builds require 2x the effort to bring down 7/9 professions, any healing skill would be reduced in efficacy by 50% on average and the balance would more than ever favor the profession who has access to innate boons and effects - something base health is the only prohibiting factor of as it currently stands.

    You say some professions get a free build. Why doesn't everyone play them then? Because of roles that need to be filled. What decides your role? Base health mostly. Without it we would enter the tankiest node-sustain meta you can imagine, way worse than in the HoT days where people cap a node and stay there until the game times out. The winners will be the ones who get the first and only kill.

    So is hp the balancing tool for def or not then? Is it hp or is it def skills because all classes have def skill in one way or another.

    At the end of the day if you have more hp you can build higher dmg every class has there means of saying alive for a moment but your still going to take dmg from reaction effect like retal burning on blocks etc.. things that you cant build for but for say your hp.

    An ele thf and gurd should do more dmg because they lack hp that say a war has so these classes most often build with some def in mind. Classes like necro war and ranger can build with raw dmg in mind because they get "free" hp. You can say the same for mez eng and rev but its not as bad from the hp point of view.

    As long as only def effect of hp very from class to class the game will always be not balanced.

    The more free hp a class has the more zerker meta you will see that why the thing back in the day every one was able to build ok hp and def because of how trait lines worked. If any thing the high hp classes are still stuck in the zerker meta the other classes have to build with hp or some other type of def combo in mind.

    @Nimon.7840 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:
    If anet must have class base hp balancing (some classes simply have more hp because they are one class or another) why not have power base work the same way?

    This game is very much HP dependent on how well your class can stay alive as most classes have the ability to full heal after a burst hit when some one or npc finds there way though evasion blocks and invabitly that all classes have. Its if you get one shot or not that makes your class a glass build or not. The thing is if your class has high hp to start with you simply get "free" room to go more dmg vs the class with low hp who will need to be an "if hit goes down" build or must give up dmg to not be a one hit build.

    Why not let low hp classes be rewarded for this risk?

    What risk?
    Low hp classes have a lot of evades or blocks or general mobility.

    The only class that would get hit and nerfed super hard by this would be necro that has no defenses other than his healthbar (and his "second health bar" that isn't a health bar because it degenerates while infight.

    If you'd do this you would also have to keep different armor value from different armor classes in mind.

    So guard would stay the same as it has heavy armor but low health
    Necro would stay the same: light armor but high health
    Warrior would be nerfed, high health, heavy armor
    Ele would be buffed, low health, light armor.

    Not a very well thought post.

    @rng.1024 and @Jski.6180
    But back to blocks and so on. Would ele then be nerfed because it has a lot of evades? And necro be buffed because it doesn't have a single block or dodge?

    Blocks/invuln and evades provide infinite dmg reduction while health doesn't

    But please, before making such suggestions, please use your brain and consider, what effect such changes would have for all classes!

    I mean war has blocks and evasion so its not a low hp class vs high hp class type of balancing point.

    If you honestly believe a thief f.ex is supposed to trade blow for blow with a warrior, then I'm not sure what game you are playing. Yes hp is the major balance factor.

    Take a look at meta warrior - do you really feel it builds for excessive damage? Or meta scourge for that matter?

    No it wasn't the old traits that kept things under control, it was less AoE, less range, harder to achieve might stacking and fewer defensive options, as well as less spammy damage introduced with elite specs which just added upon weapons. Why would there be a zerker meta you think? More defense would still win out if we increase people's health, even moreso because instead of going up against someone with 25% less health but an amulet with 20% more toughness, you would now be up against someone with the same health as you but 20% more toughness - meaning unless you do 20% more damage (which is way more than from zerker to marauder) then you will by numbers alone already lose if you trade blows.

    I think a thf should hit a lot harder then a war and a war should not be able to last long vs a thf who set up to land the first blow.

    I think warrior can go too far into dmg with out going glass in how much max hp it has.

    There was a lot of aoe in the old gw2 but your trate lines gave you your hp power etc.. not your gear so you could go full zerk and still be some what tankly. That not in the game any more but classes who have build in high hp are still able to go all in dmg and still be tankly were the low hp classes must build tankly but often do not get dmg to make up for the hp wall that they must eat though to kill the high hp classes.

    All classes have skill to deal with dmg as well as healing and its getting worst with each update to this game. From both the elites they added in new combo in gear and new runes set. Would you like some healing with your taking 0 dmg with you life steal with you endless stab ending condi clear and barriers?

    You can build for massive damage on thief with crit strikes, marauder amulet and signet. The option is there but not used too much. Besides you are talking dp, not sd which is meant for debilitation more than burst. So it can hit way harder, just because you don't choose to doesn't justify any buffs.

    Glass? First off, demolisher isn't glass. Defence line isn't glass. Tactics line has 1 damage trait. Might makes right is everything other than glass, but you can simply avoid the f1 and it's a free kill in a much lower time than a sword 2 and 3 abusing thief. Sure they can - but when did you last see a zerker warrior in anything above silver? (Excluding the yolo berserkers testing the patch dmg)

    Everybody lost trait stats with that change. How did that get unbalanced in your opinion? It's not like you buildt for the stats, so most of the time it was random and arbitrary anyways. It's come back recently with some weapon traits anyways, and I can't really say they make or break anything. We now also have runes that give 125 extra points and 10% health bonuses, sorry to say these together more than make up for any deficit. If your argument then is core traits vs elite specs then base hp has nothing to do with the equation.

    Cant you do that for all classes though its not like other classes have less power and less crit dmg. That kind of what i am getting at.

    Hp is the main effect in this game for glass or non glass and armor cant do any thing vs condi it also has a weird interaction with crit dmg that i do not comply understand.

    The trait line stats lost was never balanced out right for the class hp and power. Most classes who did power dmg aimed effect would take the power dmg line but often now the hp line giving you a real power dmg / hp balance with in there own classes. You lose a lot of dmg for that extra points and hp bonuses and high hp classes can use these effect just as well as low hp classes. But there is nothing like this for power and if there was only the high hp classes would run them as they have the base line hp not to be one shot letting there dmg -% skills trigger to keep them alive though most burst.

    Hp was some what balanced with the core classes due to the def skill but it was never that great war still has take 0 dmg as a core class but as they added in eleit spec they came with high def skill in fact from HoT to PoF its only gotten worst.

    So the only real fix is to very power from class to class base off of hp or you simply have classes who get free stats for just being that class over other classes who get less just for being that class. Its a simple have and have not argument.

    With different base hp and consistent damage, it's an even playing field when it comes to offence, but not defence. This allows time to kill be purely decided by your defence. The game was designed so that some professions had a higher ttk than others, to allow them the opportunity to last longer and therefore have a little more outnumbered-presence. This was done in order for others to play around them and the +1 was created. This in turn creates an imbalance in the map because 1 person can keep 2 enemies busy - meaning already that 1 person needs to be very good in a 1v1 - this is the hallmark of every duelist. They do have an advantage, but only in defence which means that for the average player they will take slightly (with 2k autos these days emphasis on slightly) longer to take down, at the same time meaning if it comes down to a facetank the higher hp class will win in most cases. This is why opening bursts, ranged opener, intentional trait proccing and duelist pressure became a thing and a big factor in conquest for your teams success.

    You want to remove all of that. You want everyone to be a duelist. You want everyone to handle a 2v1. You want no +1 professions. You want everyone to facetank everyone. You want these small plays moot. You want conquest to be deathmatch, on nodes. Do you have any idea how your change would impact conquest? There's a reason they removed deathmatch because the snowball is too big and it gets boring quick - which is exactly the case for what conquest would be.

    As for your argument with power scaling with vitality. You gear up a warrior or a necro with a celestial amulet. You are already the best of the best in base health, so you'll have the best shot at winning over other professions since they still have lower health than you, even with amulets. Let me know how many kills you average on a game, and how many 1v1's you are able to win. Because this is the problem with your suggestion, the defensive powercreep way outweigh the impact celestial amulet (460 power) f.ex without might can do. And even then you still need to work over twice as hard to kill someone with 10% less hp (with amulet) than you.

  • Jski.6180Jski.6180 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @rng.1024 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @rng.1024 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @rng.1024 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @rng.1024 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @rng.1024 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @rng.1024 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @rng.1024 said:
    There are alot more factors at play than just power vs base health.

    The more fair option would be to f.ex increase base armor, and then scale it inversely with base health. This would mean low hp character can better negate a burst than a high hp character, who in turn has more health to sustain prolonged exposure to damage.

    What I mean by factors is how not all professions have equal access to power based weapon skills, high coefficients or active damage mitigation. What this means is basically with half the power removed, they will either not be able to kill anything no matter what, find ways to get perma mightstacks rendering the change moot or whittle you down anyways.

    What's important here is to separate that which is scaleable and that which isn't. If warrior can kill you with a 2 shot combo, increasing it to 4 doesn't necessarily mean you'll survive it any easier, it just means he has to work harder - which is starting to become a common theme of core builds f.ex. The point is that if you don't dodge that first cc it's over anyways, so any further nerfing will make no difference, especially as you will be just as squishy.

    This game is all about active mitigation at this point, 4-5 years ago numbers still could swing fights but not anymore with the powercreep. This is why we get the two camps of those who avoid getting hit by big skills and think the game is fine, and those that try to tank it and is annoyed by the damage. Notice how one is scaleable and the other is not.

    But why not let the lower hp class kill faster then the war class whom has high hp?

    As for coefficients it seems to over complex balancing when you can just standardize coefficients but have power very from class to class letting the player have much more control over there builds. Also 1 power for one class should be the same effect as another class or your always going to have massive imbalance.

    Because the entire point of differing base health is to adjust time to kill to begin with - meaning warrior and necro are supposed to take a while to kill. The reason elementalist, thief and guardian have such a low healthpool, is to promote use of more hybrid amulets. You really want to give support guardian 9k more health? Or a FA ele who can burst from range more defense? Thief with mobility and stealth becoming 45% harder to pin down?

    I've been playing with the same idea, that we could uniform coefficients and weapon skill cooldowns for a more predictable outcome. But then let's look at warrior for example, who has quite the low attacks/s. Compared to mesmer, who has fairly high a/s the warrior would always struggle and you create favourable matchups - which is what the expansions were made to remove.

    At this point however, it's no longer a change we want to see implemented and a discussion of how we'd like it, in scope and complexity it has become a full rework which is either a pipedream or fit for gw3. The base health difference has been there since launch and I don't see it going anytime soon. It creates risk with using certain professions, diversifying amulets used and allow for multiple roles (with uniform values all would run zerker, if anyone could tank on node they would) which pretty much seems intended, and it gives flavour to the professions. But don't make the mistake of thinking it's the cause of the current balance issues, as it's quite far down the list showcased by how the core game was balanced before HoT.

    So the other classes cant use hybrid amulets? Should we lock amulets to classes? And there are builds for all classes in the game to be burstly its just some classes get "free" build in tanklyness to land that burst and not get one shot them self.

    The hp class balancing brakes down a lot in this game when you do look at classes who have high dmg build in to there effects but not the lowest hp but has def effect that makes it seems like they should be low hp classes such as mez.

    You just simply have classes who can run more dmg then others is what it comes down to purely because of there class having more hp.

    Easiest way to demonstrate is how a warrior won't be as effective as engi if both run celestial amulet - and they are designed that way. You can run any amulet, but that doesn't mean it's a good fit just like marauder on warrior is quite the waste.

    Yeah you get a free buid in there, but it's intended for them to take longer to kill, it's even reflected in traits and skill flavour - which is the point I've been trying to make all along. This in turn leads to low hp professions to build for added sustain while high hp professions turn more glassy.

    Yeah some can build for more damage, but stats are a minor component in this game when it comes to mitigation. You can build full tank and still go down eventually. In the end it comes down to time to kill, how you handle an outnumber and how much you can facetank - all decided by base hp.

    Eng is a mid hp class so it too is part of the hp imbalance.

    You can use any base hp variant you want. You can swap engi for necro in the prevous example, or compare Guardian to Mesmer (more healing oriented), the result is the same either way - that some professions benefit more from certain stats than others, whereof base health is a major deciding factor for the defensive ones. That's without even taking into account how condition damage affects different health values, scaling coefficients or viability as a whole.

    But to be fair I get your argument because at a glance it seems unnecessary, however once you start taking traits and available skill types into the equation it starts to spin a out of control. T

    hen those two would be the only deciding factor of a builds sustain. The bright side here is amulet choice would matter more since they are no longer needed to cover a deficit, but this too would lead to a locked meta where everyone use zerker f.ex - simply because else you can't kill the squishier professions anymore. A druid running permaprotection would now have direct 33% advantage over a thief at all times, support specs would contribute even less to overall pressure and all of a sudden condition builds require 2x the effort to bring down 7/9 professions, any healing skill would be reduced in efficacy by 50% on average and the balance would more than ever favor the profession who has access to innate boons and effects - something base health is the only prohibiting factor of as it currently stands.

    You say some professions get a free build. Why doesn't everyone play them then? Because of roles that need to be filled. What decides your role? Base health mostly. Without it we would enter the tankiest node-sustain meta you can imagine, way worse than in the HoT days where people cap a node and stay there until the game times out. The winners will be the ones who get the first and only kill.

    So is hp the balancing tool for def or not then? Is it hp or is it def skills because all classes have def skill in one way or another.

    At the end of the day if you have more hp you can build higher dmg every class has there means of saying alive for a moment but your still going to take dmg from reaction effect like retal burning on blocks etc.. things that you cant build for but for say your hp.

    An ele thf and gurd should do more dmg because they lack hp that say a war has so these classes most often build with some def in mind. Classes like necro war and ranger can build with raw dmg in mind because they get "free" hp. You can say the same for mez eng and rev but its not as bad from the hp point of view.

    As long as only def effect of hp very from class to class the game will always be not balanced.

    The more free hp a class has the more zerker meta you will see that why the thing back in the day every one was able to build ok hp and def because of how trait lines worked. If any thing the high hp classes are still stuck in the zerker meta the other classes have to build with hp or some other type of def combo in mind.

    @Nimon.7840 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:
    If anet must have class base hp balancing (some classes simply have more hp because they are one class or another) why not have power base work the same way?

    This game is very much HP dependent on how well your class can stay alive as most classes have the ability to full heal after a burst hit when some one or npc finds there way though evasion blocks and invabitly that all classes have. Its if you get one shot or not that makes your class a glass build or not. The thing is if your class has high hp to start with you simply get "free" room to go more dmg vs the class with low hp who will need to be an "if hit goes down" build or must give up dmg to not be a one hit build.

    Why not let low hp classes be rewarded for this risk?

    What risk?
    Low hp classes have a lot of evades or blocks or general mobility.

    The only class that would get hit and nerfed super hard by this would be necro that has no defenses other than his healthbar (and his "second health bar" that isn't a health bar because it degenerates while infight.

    If you'd do this you would also have to keep different armor value from different armor classes in mind.

    So guard would stay the same as it has heavy armor but low health
    Necro would stay the same: light armor but high health
    Warrior would be nerfed, high health, heavy armor
    Ele would be buffed, low health, light armor.

    Not a very well thought post.

    @rng.1024 and @Jski.6180
    But back to blocks and so on. Would ele then be nerfed because it has a lot of evades? And necro be buffed because it doesn't have a single block or dodge?

    Blocks/invuln and evades provide infinite dmg reduction while health doesn't

    But please, before making such suggestions, please use your brain and consider, what effect such changes would have for all classes!

    I mean war has blocks and evasion so its not a low hp class vs high hp class type of balancing point.

    If you honestly believe a thief f.ex is supposed to trade blow for blow with a warrior, then I'm not sure what game you are playing. Yes hp is the major balance factor.

    Take a look at meta warrior - do you really feel it builds for excessive damage? Or meta scourge for that matter?

    No it wasn't the old traits that kept things under control, it was less AoE, less range, harder to achieve might stacking and fewer defensive options, as well as less spammy damage introduced with elite specs which just added upon weapons. Why would there be a zerker meta you think? More defense would still win out if we increase people's health, even moreso because instead of going up against someone with 25% less health but an amulet with 20% more toughness, you would now be up against someone with the same health as you but 20% more toughness - meaning unless you do 20% more damage (which is way more than from zerker to marauder) then you will by numbers alone already lose if you trade blows.

    I think a thf should hit a lot harder then a war and a war should not be able to last long vs a thf who set up to land the first blow.

    I think warrior can go too far into dmg with out going glass in how much max hp it has.

    There was a lot of aoe in the old gw2 but your trate lines gave you your hp power etc.. not your gear so you could go full zerk and still be some what tankly. That not in the game any more but classes who have build in high hp are still able to go all in dmg and still be tankly were the low hp classes must build tankly but often do not get dmg to make up for the hp wall that they must eat though to kill the high hp classes.

    All classes have skill to deal with dmg as well as healing and its getting worst with each update to this game. From both the elites they added in new combo in gear and new runes set. Would you like some healing with your taking 0 dmg with you life steal with you endless stab ending condi clear and barriers?

    You can build for massive damage on thief with crit strikes, marauder amulet and signet. The option is there but not used too much. Besides you are talking dp, not sd which is meant for debilitation more than burst. So it can hit way harder, just because you don't choose to doesn't justify any buffs.

    Glass? First off, demolisher isn't glass. Defence line isn't glass. Tactics line has 1 damage trait. Might makes right is everything other than glass, but you can simply avoid the f1 and it's a free kill in a much lower time than a sword 2 and 3 abusing thief. Sure they can - but when did you last see a zerker warrior in anything above silver? (Excluding the yolo berserkers testing the patch dmg)

    Everybody lost trait stats with that change. How did that get unbalanced in your opinion? It's not like you buildt for the stats, so most of the time it was random and arbitrary anyways. It's come back recently with some weapon traits anyways, and I can't really say they make or break anything. We now also have runes that give 125 extra points and 10% health bonuses, sorry to say these together more than make up for any deficit. If your argument then is core traits vs elite specs then base hp has nothing to do with the equation.

    Cant you do that for all classes though its not like other classes have less power and less crit dmg. That kind of what i am getting at.

    Hp is the main effect in this game for glass or non glass and armor cant do any thing vs condi it also has a weird interaction with crit dmg that i do not comply understand.

    The trait line stats lost was never balanced out right for the class hp and power. Most classes who did power dmg aimed effect would take the power dmg line but often now the hp line giving you a real power dmg / hp balance with in there own classes. You lose a lot of dmg for that extra points and hp bonuses and high hp classes can use these effect just as well as low hp classes. But there is nothing like this for power and if there was only the high hp classes would run them as they have the base line hp not to be one shot letting there dmg -% skills trigger to keep them alive though most burst.

    Hp was some what balanced with the core classes due to the def skill but it was never that great war still has take 0 dmg as a core class but as they added in eleit spec they came with high def skill in fact from HoT to PoF its only gotten worst.

    So the only real fix is to very power from class to class base off of hp or you simply have classes who get free stats for just being that class over other classes who get less just for being that class. Its a simple have and have not argument.

    With different base hp and consistent damage, it's an even playing field when it comes to offence, but not defence. This allows time to kill be purely decided by your defence. The game was designed so that some professions had a higher ttk than others, to allow them the opportunity to last longer and therefore have a little more outnumbered-presence. This was done in order for others to play around them and the +1 was created. This in turn creates an imbalance in the map because 1 person can keep 2 enemies busy - meaning already that 1 person needs to be very good in a 1v1 - this is the hallmark of every duelist. They do have an advantage, but only in defence which means that for the average player they will take slightly (with 2k autos these days emphasis on slightly) longer to take down, at the same time meaning if it comes down to a facetank the higher hp class will win in most cases. This is why opening bursts, ranged opener, intentional trait proccing and duelist pressure became a thing and a big factor in conquest for your teams success.

    You want to remove all of that. You want everyone to be a duelist. You want everyone to handle a 2v1. You want no +1 professions. You want everyone to facetank everyone. You want these small plays moot. You want conquest to be deathmatch, on nodes. Do you have any idea how your change would impact conquest? There's a reason they removed deathmatch because the snowball is too big and it gets boring quick - which is exactly the case for what conquest would be.

    As for your argument with power scaling with vitality. You gear up a warrior or a necro with a celestial amulet. You are already the best of the best in base health, so you'll have the best shot at winning over other professions since they still have lower health than you, even with amulets. Let me know how many kills you average on a game, and how many 1v1's you are able to win. Because this is the problem with your suggestion, the defensive powercreep way outweigh the impact celestial amulet (460 power) f.ex without might can do. And even then you still need to work over twice as hard to kill someone with 10% less hp (with amulet) than you.

    But why is def the only thing that is effected by this? I am still of a mind this is an artifact of the old gw2 balancing that was less gear base and more build base. Right now this game is way too bunker aimed and less dmg aimed because of classes getting free def boots from being one class or another. So by making power also very from class to class lets you move the game into more dmg aimed to a point. Making the game more fun to play (well for me at least because i do not find it fun running into fights where no one dies every).

    There is a real problem here when you talk about each skill getting buffed and nerfed when your talking about making or braking a full class. It makes the classes into one skill and that just wrong way of balancing a game. You balance a class not a skill or your going to kill build types over night from over buffing a skill or over nerfing a skill. In a way your making things way too complex going from class vs class balancing to with in that class to being skill vs skill then class vs class.

    Best to add in a risk reward hp / power for classes and standardizes dmg out put and def effects.

    See ELE forms and you will get my views.

  • rng.1024rng.1024 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 15, 2019

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @rng.1024 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @rng.1024 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @rng.1024 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @rng.1024 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @rng.1024 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @rng.1024 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @rng.1024 said:
    There are alot more factors at play than just power vs base health.

    The more fair option would be to f.ex increase base armor, and then scale it inversely with base health. This would mean low hp character can better negate a burst than a high hp character, who in turn has more health to sustain prolonged exposure to damage.

    What I mean by factors is how not all professions have equal access to power based weapon skills, high coefficients or active damage mitigation. What this means is basically with half the power removed, they will either not be able to kill anything no matter what, find ways to get perma mightstacks rendering the change moot or whittle you down anyways.

    What's important here is to separate that which is scaleable and that which isn't. If warrior can kill you with a 2 shot combo, increasing it to 4 doesn't necessarily mean you'll survive it any easier, it just means he has to work harder - which is starting to become a common theme of core builds f.ex. The point is that if you don't dodge that first cc it's over anyways, so any further nerfing will make no difference, especially as you will be just as squishy.

    This game is all about active mitigation at this point, 4-5 years ago numbers still could swing fights but not anymore with the powercreep. This is why we get the two camps of those who avoid getting hit by big skills and think the game is fine, and those that try to tank it and is annoyed by the damage. Notice how one is scaleable and the other is not.

    But why not let the lower hp class kill faster then the war class whom has high hp?

    As for coefficients it seems to over complex balancing when you can just standardize coefficients but have power very from class to class letting the player have much more control over there builds. Also 1 power for one class should be the same effect as another class or your always going to have massive imbalance.

    Because the entire point of differing base health is to adjust time to kill to begin with - meaning warrior and necro are supposed to take a while to kill. The reason elementalist, thief and guardian have such a low healthpool, is to promote use of more hybrid amulets. You really want to give support guardian 9k more health? Or a FA ele who can burst from range more defense? Thief with mobility and stealth becoming 45% harder to pin down?

    I've been playing with the same idea, that we could uniform coefficients and weapon skill cooldowns for a more predictable outcome. But then let's look at warrior for example, who has quite the low attacks/s. Compared to mesmer, who has fairly high a/s the warrior would always struggle and you create favourable matchups - which is what the expansions were made to remove.

    At this point however, it's no longer a change we want to see implemented and a discussion of how we'd like it, in scope and complexity it has become a full rework which is either a pipedream or fit for gw3. The base health difference has been there since launch and I don't see it going anytime soon. It creates risk with using certain professions, diversifying amulets used and allow for multiple roles (with uniform values all would run zerker, if anyone could tank on node they would) which pretty much seems intended, and it gives flavour to the professions. But don't make the mistake of thinking it's the cause of the current balance issues, as it's quite far down the list showcased by how the core game was balanced before HoT.

    So the other classes cant use hybrid amulets? Should we lock amulets to classes? And there are builds for all classes in the game to be burstly its just some classes get "free" build in tanklyness to land that burst and not get one shot them self.

    The hp class balancing brakes down a lot in this game when you do look at classes who have high dmg build in to there effects but not the lowest hp but has def effect that makes it seems like they should be low hp classes such as mez.

    You just simply have classes who can run more dmg then others is what it comes down to purely because of there class having more hp.

    Easiest way to demonstrate is how a warrior won't be as effective as engi if both run celestial amulet - and they are designed that way. You can run any amulet, but that doesn't mean it's a good fit just like marauder on warrior is quite the waste.

    Yeah you get a free buid in there, but it's intended for them to take longer to kill, it's even reflected in traits and skill flavour - which is the point I've been trying to make all along. This in turn leads to low hp professions to build for added sustain while high hp professions turn more glassy.

    Yeah some can build for more damage, but stats are a minor component in this game when it comes to mitigation. You can build full tank and still go down eventually. In the end it comes down to time to kill, how you handle an outnumber and how much you can facetank - all decided by base hp.

    Eng is a mid hp class so it too is part of the hp imbalance.

    You can use any base hp variant you want. You can swap engi for necro in the prevous example, or compare Guardian to Mesmer (more healing oriented), the result is the same either way - that some professions benefit more from certain stats than others, whereof base health is a major deciding factor for the defensive ones. That's without even taking into account how condition damage affects different health values, scaling coefficients or viability as a whole.

    But to be fair I get your argument because at a glance it seems unnecessary, however once you start taking traits and available skill types into the equation it starts to spin a out of control. T

    hen those two would be the only deciding factor of a builds sustain. The bright side here is amulet choice would matter more since they are no longer needed to cover a deficit, but this too would lead to a locked meta where everyone use zerker f.ex - simply because else you can't kill the squishier professions anymore. A druid running permaprotection would now have direct 33% advantage over a thief at all times, support specs would contribute even less to overall pressure and all of a sudden condition builds require 2x the effort to bring down 7/9 professions, any healing skill would be reduced in efficacy by 50% on average and the balance would more than ever favor the profession who has access to innate boons and effects - something base health is the only prohibiting factor of as it currently stands.

    You say some professions get a free build. Why doesn't everyone play them then? Because of roles that need to be filled. What decides your role? Base health mostly. Without it we would enter the tankiest node-sustain meta you can imagine, way worse than in the HoT days where people cap a node and stay there until the game times out. The winners will be the ones who get the first and only kill.

    So is hp the balancing tool for def or not then? Is it hp or is it def skills because all classes have def skill in one way or another.

    At the end of the day if you have more hp you can build higher dmg every class has there means of saying alive for a moment but your still going to take dmg from reaction effect like retal burning on blocks etc.. things that you cant build for but for say your hp.

    An ele thf and gurd should do more dmg because they lack hp that say a war has so these classes most often build with some def in mind. Classes like necro war and ranger can build with raw dmg in mind because they get "free" hp. You can say the same for mez eng and rev but its not as bad from the hp point of view.

    As long as only def effect of hp very from class to class the game will always be not balanced.

    The more free hp a class has the more zerker meta you will see that why the thing back in the day every one was able to build ok hp and def because of how trait lines worked. If any thing the high hp classes are still stuck in the zerker meta the other classes have to build with hp or some other type of def combo in mind.

    @Nimon.7840 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:
    If anet must have class base hp balancing (some classes simply have more hp because they are one class or another) why not have power base work the same way?

    This game is very much HP dependent on how well your class can stay alive as most classes have the ability to full heal after a burst hit when some one or npc finds there way though evasion blocks and invabitly that all classes have. Its if you get one shot or not that makes your class a glass build or not. The thing is if your class has high hp to start with you simply get "free" room to go more dmg vs the class with low hp who will need to be an "if hit goes down" build or must give up dmg to not be a one hit build.

    Why not let low hp classes be rewarded for this risk?

    What risk?
    Low hp classes have a lot of evades or blocks or general mobility.

    The only class that would get hit and nerfed super hard by this would be necro that has no defenses other than his healthbar (and his "second health bar" that isn't a health bar because it degenerates while infight.

    If you'd do this you would also have to keep different armor value from different armor classes in mind.

    So guard would stay the same as it has heavy armor but low health
    Necro would stay the same: light armor but high health
    Warrior would be nerfed, high health, heavy armor
    Ele would be buffed, low health, light armor.

    Not a very well thought post.

    @rng.1024 and @Jski.6180
    But back to blocks and so on. Would ele then be nerfed because it has a lot of evades? And necro be buffed because it doesn't have a single block or dodge?

    Blocks/invuln and evades provide infinite dmg reduction while health doesn't

    But please, before making such suggestions, please use your brain and consider, what effect such changes would have for all classes!

    I mean war has blocks and evasion so its not a low hp class vs high hp class type of balancing point.

    If you honestly believe a thief f.ex is supposed to trade blow for blow with a warrior, then I'm not sure what game you are playing. Yes hp is the major balance factor.

    Take a look at meta warrior - do you really feel it builds for excessive damage? Or meta scourge for that matter?

    No it wasn't the old traits that kept things under control, it was less AoE, less range, harder to achieve might stacking and fewer defensive options, as well as less spammy damage introduced with elite specs which just added upon weapons. Why would there be a zerker meta you think? More defense would still win out if we increase people's health, even moreso because instead of going up against someone with 25% less health but an amulet with 20% more toughness, you would now be up against someone with the same health as you but 20% more toughness - meaning unless you do 20% more damage (which is way more than from zerker to marauder) then you will by numbers alone already lose if you trade blows.

    I think a thf should hit a lot harder then a war and a war should not be able to last long vs a thf who set up to land the first blow.

    I think warrior can go too far into dmg with out going glass in how much max hp it has.

    There was a lot of aoe in the old gw2 but your trate lines gave you your hp power etc.. not your gear so you could go full zerk and still be some what tankly. That not in the game any more but classes who have build in high hp are still able to go all in dmg and still be tankly were the low hp classes must build tankly but often do not get dmg to make up for the hp wall that they must eat though to kill the high hp classes.

    All classes have skill to deal with dmg as well as healing and its getting worst with each update to this game. From both the elites they added in new combo in gear and new runes set. Would you like some healing with your taking 0 dmg with you life steal with you endless stab ending condi clear and barriers?

    You can build for massive damage on thief with crit strikes, marauder amulet and signet. The option is there but not used too much. Besides you are talking dp, not sd which is meant for debilitation more than burst. So it can hit way harder, just because you don't choose to doesn't justify any buffs.

    Glass? First off, demolisher isn't glass. Defence line isn't glass. Tactics line has 1 damage trait. Might makes right is everything other than glass, but you can simply avoid the f1 and it's a free kill in a much lower time than a sword 2 and 3 abusing thief. Sure they can - but when did you last see a zerker warrior in anything above silver? (Excluding the yolo berserkers testing the patch dmg)

    Everybody lost trait stats with that change. How did that get unbalanced in your opinion? It's not like you buildt for the stats, so most of the time it was random and arbitrary anyways. It's come back recently with some weapon traits anyways, and I can't really say they make or break anything. We now also have runes that give 125 extra points and 10% health bonuses, sorry to say these together more than make up for any deficit. If your argument then is core traits vs elite specs then base hp has nothing to do with the equation.

    Cant you do that for all classes though its not like other classes have less power and less crit dmg. That kind of what i am getting at.

    Hp is the main effect in this game for glass or non glass and armor cant do any thing vs condi it also has a weird interaction with crit dmg that i do not comply understand.

    The trait line stats lost was never balanced out right for the class hp and power. Most classes who did power dmg aimed effect would take the power dmg line but often now the hp line giving you a real power dmg / hp balance with in there own classes. You lose a lot of dmg for that extra points and hp bonuses and high hp classes can use these effect just as well as low hp classes. But there is nothing like this for power and if there was only the high hp classes would run them as they have the base line hp not to be one shot letting there dmg -% skills trigger to keep them alive though most burst.

    Hp was some what balanced with the core classes due to the def skill but it was never that great war still has take 0 dmg as a core class but as they added in eleit spec they came with high def skill in fact from HoT to PoF its only gotten worst.

    So the only real fix is to very power from class to class base off of hp or you simply have classes who get free stats for just being that class over other classes who get less just for being that class. Its a simple have and have not argument.

    With different base hp and consistent damage, it's an even playing field when it comes to offence, but not defence. This allows time to kill be purely decided by your defence. The game was designed so that some professions had a higher ttk than others, to allow them the opportunity to last longer and therefore have a little more outnumbered-presence. This was done in order for others to play around them and the +1 was created. This in turn creates an imbalance in the map because 1 person can keep 2 enemies busy - meaning already that 1 person needs to be very good in a 1v1 - this is the hallmark of every duelist. They do have an advantage, but only in defence which means that for the average player they will take slightly (with 2k autos these days emphasis on slightly) longer to take down, at the same time meaning if it comes down to a facetank the higher hp class will win in most cases. This is why opening bursts, ranged opener, intentional trait proccing and duelist pressure became a thing and a big factor in conquest for your teams success.

    You want to remove all of that. You want everyone to be a duelist. You want everyone to handle a 2v1. You want no +1 professions. You want everyone to facetank everyone. You want these small plays moot. You want conquest to be deathmatch, on nodes. Do you have any idea how your change would impact conquest? There's a reason they removed deathmatch because the snowball is too big and it gets boring quick - which is exactly the case for what conquest would be.

    As for your argument with power scaling with vitality. You gear up a warrior or a necro with a celestial amulet. You are already the best of the best in base health, so you'll have the best shot at winning over other professions since they still have lower health than you, even with amulets. Let me know how many kills you average on a game, and how many 1v1's you are able to win. Because this is the problem with your suggestion, the defensive powercreep way outweigh the impact celestial amulet (460 power) f.ex without might can do. And even then you still need to work over twice as hard to kill someone with 10% less hp (with amulet) than you.

    But why is def the only thing that is effected by this? I am still of a mind this is an artifact of the old gw2 balancing that was less gear base and more build base. Right now this game is way too bunker aimed and less dmg aimed because of classes getting free def boots from being one class or another. So by making power also very from class to class lets you move the game into more dmg aimed to a point. Making the game more fun to play (well for me at least because i do not find it fun running into fights where no one dies every).

    There is a real problem here when you talk about each skill getting buffed and nerfed when your talking about making or braking a full class. It makes the classes into one skill and that just wrong way of balancing a game. You balance a class not a skill or your going to kill build types over night from over buffing a skill or over nerfing a skill. In a way your making things way too complex going from class vs class balancing to with in that class to being skill vs skill then class vs class.

    Best to add in a risk reward hp / power for classes and standardizes dmg out put and def effects.

    I'm going to summarize my last thoughts on the subject as simply as I can:

    The issue I have with reducing damage is that over the years expansions, trait revisions, skill reworks and rune changes have increased most professions access to passive defence. This is why it's no longer viable (you simply cannot kill someone not utter glass) running any less than 1050 added power, and even then you will struggle without an offensive rune or an excess of might.

    Pairing this idea off with increasing everyones defense make for a double down which, overall, decreases team dps by atleast 50% if implemented. Less damage = less downs, which leads to more stalled fights = no point gain, which in turn leads to timeouts. As we experienced in the last bunker meta, timeouts are no fun and any dps player will have a bad time unless the entire team knows what they are doing and not without a little luck. For examples of this you can look up Pro League season 2.

    As for the risk/reward aspect, as it stands currently everyone gets the same reward but the risk varies. This is incredibly important for role diversity, since this mean some professions have more to lose and need to find other ways to even the playing field. Also I would like to remind you how this game emphasizes active damage mitigation way more than passive, so in a perfect fight where nobody gets hit the damage will be the exact same and base hp doesn't factor in at all. A sturdier profession can simply afford a few (and I really mean few) more mistakes, or use that buffer to survive a +1. The moment we give everyone the ability to do this, why move off a point at all (since that will be the optimal play)?

    I am all for different professions having different strengths and weaknesses, different access to boons, conditions and skill types. It mixes things up and I find that fun.

    You mention what is meta and what isn't like it's anets fault for updating some skills here and there - but it's not that at all. Do you know how core thief became meta? It wasn't a thief buff or an espec nerf, it was simply due to the presence of such pressure and block capability in every game that only core thief could thrive. Another yet opposite example of this is how they buffed berserker's greatsword burst, which if we judge meta by anet changes would fly right up there. But it didn't, because a bad warrior would struggle just the same. Next for an example of what makes something meta let's take a look at soulbeast, which is in kinda the same group as holosmith where they do okay enough in an acceptable amount of scenarios and therefore will benefit the team in most cases. How about core guardian? It hadn't received any buffs since forever and the build was always there, but it showed as an answer to condition mirages flooding matches.

    So you see a meta isn't defined by one profession and it's capabilities alone, which is why we need to look at the big picture, draw from past experience and not remove diversity and the things that make PvP unique, but rather do small incremental changes to both professions and gamemode until balance is somewhat achieved. Kickstarting it like this would only hurt the playerbase and enjoyment of the mode, considering this has been implemented since launch and I believe the minority of multiclassers see the base hp being an issue.

    This is as simple as I can put it, so if you still see no points in what I write then there is no longer a point to keep writing, because I will repeat myself over and over. However you are entitled to your opinion and I respect that, and maybe if they did your change it would be for the better - I just don't believe it would, and no argument introduced in this discussion has me slightly convinced.

  • Jski.6180Jski.6180 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @""rng.1024"

    You think i am asking for high hp classes to have less power? I am not i am asking for low hp classes to have more power much like the high hp class have high hp now.

    Your asking your tanks to do dmg your your dps to be tanks right now. Its easier for a tank to do dps as all of the power is from gear in gw2 so you have tankly classes able to have the same power as a full glass low hp class but your low hp classes cant build as tankly because of the hp scaling.

    Risk reward is power (reward) vs hp (risk). If you have classes who all have the same reward (power) then classes who can lower risk are simply better.

    Over complicating balancing is what that is doing to the point of every thing is nerfed one update and broken at the same time. Till the next update that will nerf the last op and buff the old up to being the new op.

    Its always anet fault players have the right no the obligation to brake there game as much as they can and exploit it as much as they can one with one build or another trying to out do each other and trying every thing they can to not give away what there build is.

    Meta is what ever anet over looks from one update to another if they go countless update with out nerfing a bluntly broken effect then players are going to keep exploring it. Agen on anet not the players and we ALL know the problems as well as anet.

    I am willing to def my point of view and to be told i am wrong and see that i am wrong if some one makes a good point about it. This game has a good combat systom but for some reason they have variation in def and hp so why not have variation in power?

    See ELE forms and you will get my views.

  • DaShi.1368DaShi.1368 Member ✭✭✭

    The problem is that HP doesn't really matter that much for several classes. In fact, some of the biggest problem classes aren't really HP, it their other defenses, particularly active defenses. Mesmers, thieves, rangers, revs, and engies can put so much into damage because they have so many defensive tricks to keep them alive. Mesmers have so many active defensive tricks that really good ones can completely avoid damage while dishing out a lot in return. Lowering their HP isn't really going to affect them that much.

    Meanwhile, eles and necros struggle because they don't have these kinds of defenses. Eles can go full defense, but good luck killing anything. Necros can churn out insane amounts of damage, but are so vulnerable, they aren't viable without support. So basically, all you are asking for is an Ele buff that would probably buff a lot of other classes (who shouldn't be buffed) as well.

  • bravan.3876bravan.3876 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 15, 2019

    Some classes have less base hp than others because they have other sustain stuff in exchange. Giving all classes the same base hp would need massive rework of class mechanics like guard and Ele to be way less supportive and self sustaining from heals and boons. You have to look for effective hp not for base hp. Effective hp includes healing power, facetank ability from boons like protection, aegis, reggen etc. In terms of effective hp Ele is one of the best.

    "playing revenant is borderline exploiting" - up condimirage 2k18

  • Stand The Wall.6987Stand The Wall.6987 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 15, 2019

    some classes will vastly over perform with berserker amulet (cough cough rev, mes, war, probably guard and teef). if increasing base hp is on the table then you gotta make it so its still risky to run glass. other wise all you're doing is adding more power creep. nvm basically all classes will be broke with more base hp.

    you don't know till you know, ya know.

  • otto.5684otto.5684 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:
    some classes will vastly over perform with berserker amulet (cough cough rev, mes, war, probably guard and teef). if increasing base hp is on the table then you gotta make it so its still risky to run glass. other wise all you're doing is adding more power creep. nvm basically all classes will be broke with more base hp.

    The funny part is half the posters in this thread claim that the meta will become bunker and the other half it will be one shot. You know, maybe it will be about right?!

    Funny is that all the classes you mentioned needs a buff (plus ele) except rev. So why would this bad idea? I want to play power ele and not be in handicap mode.

  • Jski.6180Jski.6180 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:
    some classes will vastly over perform with berserker amulet (cough cough rev, mes, war, probably guard and teef). if increasing base hp is on the table then you gotta make it so its still risky to run glass. other wise all you're doing is adding more power creep. nvm basically all classes will be broke with more base hp.

    I am lost how would making low hp classes have more power make berserker amulet over perform? If any thing the current system is some classes have more base hp and being broken becomes of it. So in a round about way you agree with me.

    See ELE forms and you will get my views.

  • Stand The Wall.6987Stand The Wall.6987 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @otto.5684 said:
    Funny is that all the classes you mentioned needs a buff (plus ele) except rev. So why would this bad idea? I want to play power ele and not be in handicap mode.

    I think that zerk will outperform demolisher by a decent margin. seems to me that's how the game is designed, damage over damage mitigation. the classes I mentioned need buffs but the raw damage boost from zerk would put them over the top.

    you don't know till you know, ya know.

  • Daishi.6027Daishi.6027 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 15, 2019

    You can standardize HP pools when we also standardize healing, damage, and defensive cooldowns including dodges + vigor and flat endurance regen. So that is to say; never.

    Low HP pools never mattered until unbalanced heal sustain was significantly brought in line, scrapper is closest but it’s a lot better than what we used to have. Ele may not have been meta for a while, but there was a time teams ran 3-4 of them simply because it was easy to just go water and heal to full, and out sustain any cooldowns anyone had while doing reasonable damage. This, for conquest; is THE WORST balance. Big HP bars seem like a lot, however; they eventually run out. Anything that can safely out heal is literally infinite if you never hit 0. (It’s literally the scene from X-men Last stand where wolverine kills Jean)

    As for kill times, balance, standardization and the like, many heavy hitter with either “sturdy bodies”’ or sustainy specs (war, engine, ranger, maybe rev, and all there relevant specs) are due for nerfs. Where I am highly doubtful a “standardization of HP” is going to fix that. Much like what happened with Ele, those specs need to be forced to choose damage or sustain, and if they choose damage actually reasonably die themselves.

  • Stand The Wall.6987Stand The Wall.6987 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Jski.6180 said:
    I am lost how would making low hp classes have more power make berserker amulet over perform? If any thing the current system is some classes have more base hp and being broken becomes of it. So in a round about way you agree with me.

    cuz they will use berserker amulet and destroy everything. base hp isn't as big a factor as damage output and sustain. I wouldn't be against low hp getting something like a 2k hp boost but nothing else needs to be changed that drastically.

    you don't know till you know, ya know.

  • Jski.6180Jski.6180 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 15, 2019

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:
    I am lost how would making low hp classes have more power make berserker amulet over perform? If any thing the current system is some classes have more base hp and being broken becomes of it. So in a round about way you agree with me.

    cuz they will use berserker amulet and destroy everything. base hp isn't as big a factor as damage output and sustain. I wouldn't be against low hp getting something like a 2k hp boost but nothing else needs to be changed that drastically.

    Hp is 0 dmg out put for dmg sustain only works when your not getting one shot and your going all in to do full heals from hits. The way the game is you have classes getting 8k hp boost with nothing changed to power. That makes berserker amulet over perform.

    See ELE forms and you will get my views.

  • Stand The Wall.6987Stand The Wall.6987 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:
    I am lost how would making low hp classes have more power make berserker amulet over perform? If any thing the current system is some classes have more base hp and being broken becomes of it. So in a round about way you agree with me.

    cuz they will use berserker amulet and destroy everything. base hp isn't as big a factor as damage output and sustain. I wouldn't be against low hp getting something like a 2k hp boost but nothing else needs to be changed that drastically.

    Hp is 0 dmg out put for dmg sustain only works when your not getting one shot and your going all in to do full heals from hits. The way the game is you have classes getting 8k hp boost with nothing changed to power. That makes berserker amulet over perform.

    i'm not sure what you're saying.

    you don't know till you know, ya know.

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