Class HP / Power balancing suggestion - Page 2 — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Class HP / Power balancing suggestion

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  • otto.5684otto.5684 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:
    I am lost how would making low hp classes have more power make berserker amulet over perform? If any thing the current system is some classes have more base hp and being broken becomes of it. So in a round about way you agree with me.

    cuz they will use berserker amulet and destroy everything. base hp isn't as big a factor as damage output and sustain. I wouldn't be against low hp getting something like a 2k hp boost but nothing else needs to be changed that drastically.

    If HP base is not a big factor, why then not have large HP pool for low HP pool classes. After all, it does not matter. Also, core guardian with Valkyrie, pre RI nerf, was no where close to dominating sPvP. What makes you think they with large/medium HP pool? They should be about where they are pre nerf, versus now where they are completely out of the meta.

    Kinda the same for thief and ele.

    I much rather Anet make big meaningful adjustments, to open diversity, rather than the underwhelming limited changes they have been doing now that have don’t anything but kill mirage and core guardian in a year plus now.

  • Jski.6180Jski.6180 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:
    I am lost how would making low hp classes have more power make berserker amulet over perform? If any thing the current system is some classes have more base hp and being broken becomes of it. So in a round about way you agree with me.

    cuz they will use berserker amulet and destroy everything. base hp isn't as big a factor as damage output and sustain. I wouldn't be against low hp getting something like a 2k hp boost but nothing else needs to be changed that drastically.

    Hp is 0 dmg out put for dmg sustain only works when your not getting one shot and your going all in to do full heals from hits. The way the game is you have classes getting 8k hp boost with nothing changed to power. That makes berserker amulet over perform.

    i'm not sure what you're saying.

    You do not understand what i am suggestion. I want low hp classes to have higher power then 1k. And the amount of denial by the player base and devs that its "ok" to have power like this and hp vary from 11k to 19k because of classes a lone is beyond me. Berserker amulet gives no def at all so classes with free base def of higher hp / def get more out of it. The veryation of skills and sustain is spread though out the classes with out any though of there hp but there ranged of witch they are doing there dmg. All of that has gone out the window with elite spec. changing the ranged of what a class is doing it dmg so that point of balancing is pointless when it comes to power / hp balancing now.

    See ELE forms and you will get my views.

  • Stand The Wall.6987Stand The Wall.6987 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @otto.5684 said:
    If HP base is not a big factor, why then not have large HP pool for low HP pool classes. After all, it does not matter. Also, core guardian with Valkyrie, pre RI nerf, was no where close to dominating sPvP. What makes you think they with large/medium HP pool? They should be about where they are pre nerf, versus now where they are completely out of the meta.

    Kinda the same for thief and ele.

    I much rather Anet make big meaningful adjustments, to open diversity, rather than the underwhelming limited changes they have been doing now that have don’t anything but kill mirage and core guardian in a year plus now.

    IT IS a big factor when combined with damage output and sustain. instead of increased base hp just reduce damage out put and sustain... do you not understand how big a damage boost berserker amulet is?
    you want them to make big changes, like how they destroyed stability, broke condi, made entire classes either grossly op or unplayable? what world are you living in. every time anet tries to do something drastic they break 2/3 of the game cuz they seem to only balance for pve.

    you don't know till you know, ya know.

  • Stand The Wall.6987Stand The Wall.6987 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Jski.6180 said:
    You do not understand what i am suggestion. I want low hp classes to have higher power then 1k. And the amount of denial by the player base and devs that its "ok" to have power like this and hp vary from 11k to 19k because of classes a lone is beyond me. Berserker amulet gives no def at all so classes with free base def of higher hp / def get more out of it. The veryation of skills and sustain is spread though out the classes with out any though of there hp but there ranged of witch they are doing there dmg. All of that has gone out the window with elite spec. changing the ranged of what a class is doing it dmg so that point of balancing is pointless when it comes to power / hp balancing now.

    you want to increase the base power of low hp classes? ok lol you don't know what youre talking about. look I can get behind a 2k hp buff for low hp classes but nothing beyond that.

    you don't know till you know, ya know.

  • otto.5684otto.5684 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:

    @otto.5684 said:
    If HP base is not a big factor, why then not have large HP pool for low HP pool classes. After all, it does not matter. Also, core guardian with Valkyrie, pre RI nerf, was no where close to dominating sPvP. What makes you think they with large/medium HP pool? They should be about where they are pre nerf, versus now where they are completely out of the meta.

    Kinda the same for thief and ele.

    I much rather Anet make big meaningful adjustments, to open diversity, rather than the underwhelming limited changes they have been doing now that have don’t anything but kill mirage and core guardian in a year plus now.

    IT IS a big factor when combined with damage output and sustain. instead of increased base hp just reduce damage out put and sustain... do you not understand how big a damage boost berserker amulet is?
    you want them to make big changes, like how they destroyed stability, broke condi, made entire classes either grossly op or unplayable? what world are you living in. every time anet tries to do something drastic they break 2/3 of the game cuz they seem to only balance for pve.

    Berserker is about 10-15% more damage (depending on your class critic chance). Again, I do not see how this will be an issue, if we have slightly bigger HP pools, classes will be better able to handle burst damage, but lose on receiving successive hits, since damage will be able to outpace sustainability.

    Also, this will not happen in vacuum. I understand there will be need for other adjustments. However, I do not see why sPvP should be only domain of large HP pool classes and medium HP pool with high sustain (plus FB). And there is important point, that people keep missing, the original purpose of HP pools no longer exists. There is no justification to have different HP pools now and it is suffocating balance.

  • Jski.6180Jski.6180 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 15, 2019

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:
    You do not understand what i am suggestion. I want low hp classes to have higher power then 1k. And the amount of denial by the player base and devs that its "ok" to have power like this and hp vary from 11k to 19k because of classes a lone is beyond me. Berserker amulet gives no def at all so classes with free base def of higher hp / def get more out of it. The veryation of skills and sustain is spread though out the classes with out any though of there hp but there ranged of witch they are doing there dmg. All of that has gone out the window with elite spec. changing the ranged of what a class is doing it dmg so that point of balancing is pointless when it comes to power / hp balancing now.

    you want to increase the base power of low hp classes? ok lol you don't know what youre talking about. look I can get behind a 2k hp buff for low hp classes but nothing beyond that.

    How dose that fix things though? The only way for that to work is to drop the Max hp classes hp by 2k as well. Even that is not a good way of doing things. Your saying its ok for hp to very from class to class but its not ok for power to vary from class to class. What makes hp ok to vary and what makes it wrong for power to vary?

    The only thing i can tell is fear of changes that holding most ppl back on this logic point.
    High hp
    http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vJAQBAA-jZQaAAQZAA
    vs
    Low hp
    http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vFAQBAA-jZQaAAQZAA

    In what world is this fair balancing?

    See ELE forms and you will get my views.

  • Stand The Wall.6987Stand The Wall.6987 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @otto.5684 said:
    Berserker is about 10-15% more damage

    uhhh pretty sure its a lot more then that.

    you don't know till you know, ya know.

  • Jski.6180Jski.6180 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:

    @otto.5684 said:
    Berserker is about 10-15% more damage

    uhhh pretty sure its a lot more then that.

    Right but how much more dmg dose it take to take down classes who simply have more hp? Its not like the low hp classes get more power.

    Berserker may up dmg on all classes but classes who have more hp can get better use of it AT the same thing classes who have more hp get better use out of the tankly gear. It lets some classes play better dmg over all and play bunker better.

    See ELE forms and you will get my views.

  • Ganathar.4956Ganathar.4956 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 16, 2019

    Balancing HP is not the only way to fix things, but at the current state of the game I would say that the unbalanced HP pools are a problem. In core it was a very nice concept, because low HP actually came with benefits that higher HP professions did not have. For example, elementalist used to be one of the classes with the most personal boons while having the highest damage potential. Over the years these benefits were either nerfed or given to everyone. There are so many professions with boon spam that eles could never dream of having back in the core game. Ele also got more boons over time, but other professions got more of them. Especially quickness, which ele basically has no access to while having the most telegraphed skills in the game. I don't have to say much about damage, because we all know that the devs balance around PvE golems instead of balancing that in a sensible way.

    To me it is obvious that they either need to modify base HP pools or they need some major work on making a low HP pool have its benefits again. You can say all you want that the potential sustain of ele is a reason why they shouldn't do this, but I disagree because of two reasons. First of all, the way ele sustain works is an issue that they have needed to tackle for many years regardless of ele's base HP. Secondly, this would only make sword weaver unreasonably hard to kill. I feel like I need to remind everyone that all of those amazing defenses that people see on ele are a result of sword weaver. Every other weapon is completely lackluster in this and unplayable in comparison to sword as a result. If you try to play any other weapon you find yourself having almost no defenses. It is very lopsided. But at the same time, sword weaver is also the only ele build that effectively has medium base HP already, because of the master's fortitude adept trait. Sword does not only have an advantage in terms of defensive skills, but also in terms of HP pool compared to every other ele weapon. If even sword requires a medium HP pool in the current state of the game, you can be sure that ele needs a medium HP pool in general. Unless of course the devs start adding some real advantages to this profession for once. If they modified ele base HP they could always remove master's fortitude btw.

    It's not like the other professions with a low HP pool have a stellar performance anyway. Thief looks like it has been falling off because their essential defensive mechanics have been getting the nerf bat because they are annoying. They are basically forced to be that annoying if you expect paper HP to be viable. Guardians are meta, but as a support role. Tempest was meta as a support role in HoT and it also had a low HP pool. Support was the only thing that ele could do after the power creep, because there were no other support specs with PvP design at all. This is similar with current firebrand. Guradian is only good because it fills a support niche that nobody else can do. As soon as we get a real support spec for a higher HP class what do you think will happen? Yes, burst core guard was good a while back, but that was because of one overtuned trait that gave over 1000 stats for free. You needed 1000 free stat points to compete! If that doesn't prove that there is a stat deficiency that is not compensated for by profession mechanics idk what proves it.

  • Menyus.4610Menyus.4610 Member ✭✭✭

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:
    Seems like in this game higher hp/sustain classes are allowed to have everything on top but low hp classes get mobility and that's it lmao and if u argue the lower hp classes should be better at anything else,even one thing over the higher hp/sustain classes the non low hp classes ralley to to say nerf the low hp class cuz they have mobility. It's a joke just like it's a joke how the devs have balanced this game.

    Problem is that mobility is now an all class thingy

  • otto.5684otto.5684 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 16, 2019

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:

    @otto.5684 said:
    Berserker is about 10-15% more damage

    uhhh pretty sure its a lot more then that.

    Lets do the math. It is copied from excel so it looks a a bit funny.

        ** No additional critic modifier **         
         Power  Critic Dmg  Critic Chance   Damage
    

    Mara Critic 2,225.00 187.30% 55.00% 2,292.08
    No critic 2,225.00 0.00% 45.00% 1,001.25
    3,293.33

    Beresrk Critic 2,375.00 209.00% 47.85% 2,375.15
    No critic 2,375.00 0.00% 52.15% 1,238.56
    3,613.72

    Percentage difference 9.73%

        ** 20% additional critic modifier   **      
         Power  Critic Dmg  Critic Chance   Damage
    

    Mara Critic 2,225.00 187.30% 75.00% 3,125.57
    No critic 2,225.00 0.00% 25.00% 556.25
    3,681.82

    Beresrk Critic 2,375.00 209.00% 67.85% 3,367.90
    No critic 2,375.00 0.00% 32.15% 763.56
    4,131.47

    Percentage difference 12.21%

    **   30% additional critic modifier     **      
         Power  Critic Dmg  Critic Chance   Damage
    

    Mara Critic 2,225.00 187.30% 85.00% 3,542.31
    No critic 2,225.00 0.00% 15.00% 333.75
    3,876.06

    Beresrk Critic 2,375.00 209.00% 77.85% 3,864.28
    No critic 2,375.00 0.00% 22.15% 526.06
    4,390.34

    Percentage difference 13.27%

        ** 40% additional critic modifier **            
         Power  Critic Dmg  Critic Chance   Damage
    

    Mara Critic 2,225.00 187.30% 90.00% 3,750.68
    No critic 2,225.00 0.00% 10.00% 222.50
    3,973.18

    Beresrk Critic 2,375.00 209.00% 87.85% 4,360.65
    No critic 2,375.00 0.00% 12.15% 288.56
    4,649.22

    Percentage difference 17.01%

         **100% critic chance       **  
         Power  Critic Dmg  Critic Chance   Damage
    

    Mara Critic 2,225.00 187.30% 100.00% 4,167.43
    No critic 2,225.00 0.00% 0.00% -
    4,167.43

    Beresrk Critic 2,375.00 209.00% 100.00% 4,963.75
    No critic 2,375.00 0.00% 0.00% -
    4,963.75

    Percentage difference 19.11%


    The actual range is from 9.73% - 19.11%.

    Base + fury is 12.21%. Even if you add 10% additional critic chance, you are still at 13.27%. I would argue that the 13.27% (30% additional critic chance over base) is closest to median stats difference between mara and berserker.

    The base HP I suggested initially 18, 20 and 22, I would modify that to 18, 20.5 and 23 as follows:

    Actual   Suggested  HP Diff % Diff
    

    Small 11,655 18,000 6,345 54.44%
    Medium 15,922 20,500 4,578 28.75%
    Large 19,212 23,000 3,788 19.72%

    Even assuming 100% critic chance, heavy HP pool classes, with 23,000 HP, will receive around the same damage from an enemy in berserker, compared to the current HP pool receiving damage from an enemy with marauder. Medium and small pool will definitively be better off. This is consistent with the intention to reduce the impact of burst damage, while making you lose more damage from receiving successive hits. In addition, all classes now can choose between various amulets versus all power builds, except SB and necro, being locked into mara. Condi builds should be able to play sinister or viper more freely as well.

    I foresee two problems though, FB and necro. FB will probably be the biggest winner with an 18K HP pool. We need to nerf FB heal scaling regardless. Should not be huge issue with the right nerf. Necro though will lose in this setup, since the HP pool was its only sustain advantage over most classes. But should not necro have more reliable defenses instead of higher HP, that under focus fire, will not help you much anyway?

  • Stand The Wall.6987Stand The Wall.6987 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @otto.5684 said:
    snips

    huh. that's some enlightening maths, I always assumed it was a lot more. i'm still against the hp increases tho, but could agree on something lower like 16-18-20k.

    you don't know till you know, ya know.

  • otto.5684otto.5684 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:

    @otto.5684 said:
    snips

    huh. that's some enlightening maths, I always assumed it was a lot more. i'm still against the hp increases tho, but could agree on something lower like 16-18-20k.

    I would settle for that. Low HP pool classes are getting significantly hosed as it currently stands.

  • Jski.6180Jski.6180 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:

    @otto.5684 said:
    snips

    huh. that's some enlightening maths, I always assumed it was a lot more. i'm still against the hp increases tho, but could agree on something lower like 16-18-20k.

    Or you now just buff the low hp classes power. A imbalance is still an imbalance even if you make it less. Even a 4k hp differences is still a 400 free vit for a class that other classes do not have.

    See ELE forms and you will get my views.

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