It's time to stop balancing WvW around zerg PvP — Guild Wars 2 Forums

It's time to stop balancing WvW around zerg PvP

Shiyo.3578Shiyo.3578 Member ✭✭✭

Currently, zerg PvP's meta is not fun, nor is it balanced in any way. It also lags sometimes for people even on top end PC's depending on the zerg size(s).

On top of this, by balancing around(and not even creating good balance) zerg PvP, you have completely destroyed roaming, 1v1, and small scale PvP. There are far, far, FAR too many completely gimmicky impossible to kill, or 1 shot builds in WvW compared to sPvP.

Energy sigil being 2x as strong, endure pain lasting 2x as long are just some examples of making players much harder to kill in WvW than SPvP. What this does is encourage people to play brick wall builds that, if attacked, can easily run away spamming invuls/dodges/blocks/evades until they get to their tower. If you are not fighting this type of build, you're fighting some player who can immediately 1 shot you or perma stealth forever while slowly killing you with zero ways to interact with them. This makes roaming very boring and unsatisfying.

By balancing around zerg PvP, you have not created fun zerg PvP, while at the same time you have created completely unbearable roaming and small scale PvP to the point where very few people want to do roaming or small scale due to how many unfun builds there are that either cannot die, can run away from anything, or are perma stealth/1 shotting you.

This doesn't even get into mounts which were implemented in a very unfun way, and probably not thought about much at all. Mounts make roaming/small scale, which is already bad, even worse.

My proposal is this:

Balance around small scale/roaming. Use SPvP balance, do not balance around zergs. This way, roaming and small scale PvP is at least enjoyable, while zerg PvP will be just as badly balanced and unfun as it currently is while you are attempting to only balance around zerg PvP. At least this way, some of WvW will be fun instead of 100% of it being unfun. Balancing around zergs has not made zerg pvp any more fun or more balanced, and the cost of doing so has completely destroyed and ruined small scale/roaming pvp.

Comments

  • Shiyo.3578Shiyo.3578 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 10, 2019

    I explained why - by trying to balance around zerg PvP, you have not only failed at creating fun and balanced zerg pvp, but you have also done it at the expense of roaming and small scale PvP. Balancing around zerg PvP has zero benefits.

  • Mini Crinny.6190Mini Crinny.6190 Member ✭✭✭

    you can play PvP if you want small man fights.

  • shiri.4257shiri.4257 Member ✭✭✭

    @Shiyo.3578 said:
    I explained why - by trying to balance around zerg PvP, you have not only failed at creating fun and balanced zerg pvp, but you have also done it at the expense of roaming and small scale PvP. Balancing around zerg PvP has zero benefits.

    Zerg pvp is fun when you are winning. Not so much when you have an undisciplined squad of roamers trying to zerg.

    Spectre [VII] - Wood League Champion. Making "fight guilds" stack on higher tiers since 2013.
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  • Shadow Order.7258Shadow Order.7258 Member ✭✭✭

    Anet couldn't balance a head and tails game with a coin. They are really incompetent there. Get your rewards out of wvw/pvp and don't look back. Go find another game for your player killing experience because all this game will ever be is a pve game.

  • Zexanima.7851Zexanima.7851 Member ✭✭✭

    It doesn't matter how you balance things. WvW will always favor zerging. The larger your group the better your chance at winning an objective/fight, simple as that. Even if you balanced around 1v1 and small scale fights it wouldn't change anything. Roamers would still be the smaller population and getting +1 would still most likely result in a loss. As someone who enjoys roaming I understand it's not really the point of that game mode.

    D/D core thief cause I hate myself.
    Are You Proud Yet [DAD] is best guild.

  • steki.1478steki.1478 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @hunkamania.7561 said:
    WVW is about large scale fights. why appeal to the small numbers that roam when you can appeal to most the players that want 15+ large scale fights? Go play in PVP arena's if you're into those fights my friend. even the zerg fights are horribly balanced so they are not balancing around anything it seems.

    Why not have both?

    Take ele as example - in order to be effective in large scale you either need staff or d/w because they provide dps, cc, boons, sustain and/or some defense (mostly aoe), based on their role and build. Sw/d, d/d and sc/f are exclusively roaming weapons so even if you buff/nerf them they wont affect zergs at all because their damage cant compare with staff no matter what and their support is 0. They can balance "zerg weapons" and builds around zergs and roaming ones for roaming without affecting each other.

    Problem with balancing other classes comes from lack of trait, weapon and utility skill variety. Take warrior or ranger for example - they use basically same builds regardless of amount of players around them, yet they are both pretty strong in roaming. Dps mesmer is barely existent in zergs, but it's pretty strong in roaming (nerfing damage output wont make it unviable in zergs, but it will make it more balanced in roaming). I'm giving random examples, but there's plenty of situations where zerg build/performance has absolutely nothing to do with one for roaming so there's no need to focus on "zerg balancing" when you can focus on balancing everything. Wvw isnt 24/7 zerg fiesta.

    1st big thing I'd do to reach some equality in roaming would be massively reducing base sustain of every single class (so in zergs they all have to rely on supports or have tanky gear themselves), but increase their scaling from healing power so it's more controlled for roaming. Same thing can be done with damage output so glass cannons can actually be glassy instead of being able to tank 3 people while killing another 2. Basically make defensive stats worth taking and required for some actual defense/sustain. Make builds reliant on both stats and traits instead of having half classes with high base sustain from traits and high damage from gear stats, while other half has to be focused fully on offense in order to achieve a bit higher dmg results but die on sniff.

    2nd big thing would obviously be reworks of useless utility skills, traits and specializations that can benefit all game modes, not just wvw.

  • Widmo.3186Widmo.3186 Member ✭✭✭

    @Shiyo.3578 said:
    Energy sigil being 2x as strong, endure pain lasting 2x as long are just some examples of making players much harder to kill in WvW than SPvP.

    Oi, oi, OIII. Stop right there darling. As far as i know, ANet already had thoughts about nerfing energy sigil in WvW but not the rest of things. If they want to make it same as it goes in PvP, please also nerf other things, thank you. I dont want situation where some kind of a dev does "okay, this stays, this stays, this also stays, but lets say this one gets PvP balance, this one too, this one stays" etc. If all, then all

    Use SPvP balance, do not balance around zergs.

    Yes please, but I dont think its gonna happen. First, its off-meta game mode (even PvP is off-meta, ya know), second, they don't really care about roaming (change my mind please).

    Dont mind me, I just randomly spam 35 skill-buttons

  • bluberblasen.9684bluberblasen.9684 Member ✭✭✭

    @Shiyo.3578 said:

    Energy sigil being 2x as strong, endure pain lasting 2x as long are just some examples of making players much harder to kill in WvW than SPvP.

    sorry a warrior is the worst example of bad balance - warrior in roaming = balanced

    Balance from way over powered to overtuned:
    1. Holo
    2. Mirage ( power burst )
    3. scrapper ( its unkillable)
    4. boonbeast
    5. all other ranger elite spec builds with perma evade spam
    6. reaper ( yes reaper ! )
    7. mirage ( condi )
    8. power herald
    9. perma evade thief ( not op but annoying)

    balanced =
    warrior
    ele
    guardian

    nice try

  • Dawdler.8521Dawdler.8521 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @bluberblasen.9684 said:
    balanced =
    warrior
    ele
    guardian

    nice try

    Lol.

    Nice try.

  • Swagger.1459Swagger.1459 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 10, 2019

    @Shiyo.3578 said:
    Currently, zerg PvP's meta is not fun, nor is it balanced in any way. It also lags sometimes for people even on top end PC's depending on the zerg size(s).

    On top of this, by balancing around(and not even creating good balance) zerg PvP, you have completely destroyed roaming, 1v1, and small scale PvP. There are far, far, FAR too many completely gimmicky impossible to kill, or 1 shot builds in WvW compared to sPvP.

    Energy sigil being 2x as strong, endure pain lasting 2x as long are just some examples of making players much harder to kill in WvW than SPvP. What this does is encourage people to play brick wall builds that, if attacked, can easily run away spamming invuls/dodges/blocks/evades until they get to their tower. If you are not fighting this type of build, you're fighting some player who can immediately 1 shot you or perma stealth forever while slowly killing you with zero ways to interact with them. This makes roaming very boring and unsatisfying.

    By balancing around zerg PvP, you have not created fun zerg PvP, while at the same time you have created completely unbearable roaming and small scale PvP to the point where very few people want to do roaming or small scale due to how many unfun builds there are that either cannot die, can run away from anything, or are perma stealth/1 shotting you.

    This doesn't even get into mounts which were implemented in a very unfun way, and probably not thought about much at all. Mounts make roaming/small scale, which is already bad, even worse.

    My proposal is this:

    Balance around small scale/roaming. Use SPvP balance, do not balance around zergs. This way, roaming and small scale PvP is at least enjoyable, while zerg PvP will be just as badly balanced and unfun as it currently is while you are attempting to only balance around zerg PvP. At least this way, some of WvW will be fun instead of 100% of it being unfun. Balancing around zergs has not made zerg pvp any more fun or more balanced, and the cost of doing so has completely destroyed and ruined small scale/roaming pvp.

    What is GW2 WvW?

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/World_versus_World
    “The inspiration for World versus World came from Dark Age of Camelot's realm vs. realm battles."

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_Age_of_Camelot
    “The game combines Arthurian lore, Norse mythology and Irish Celtic legends with a dash of high fantasy. It is set in the period after King Arthur's death and his kingdom has split into three parts which are in a constant state of war with each other. DAoC includes both Player versus Environment (PvE) and Realm versus Realm (RvR) combat.”

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Realm_versus_Realm
    “In 2001, Mythic Entertainment introduced a new team-based form of PvP combat with the release of Dark Age of Camelot and called it Realm versus Realm. In Realm vs Realm the rules would be similar to PvP combat. Where a single combatant or a group faces one another in PvP. RVR introduces entire Factions fighting each other. RvR was also made more interesting by bypassing the normal "red vs blue" type team battles seen in most games at the time. For RvR, they created a third faction to bring about a large scale "Rock-Paper-Scissors" experience. Last they chose to allow Realm vs Realm to be played out in an open world PvP environment known as the RvR zone. The RvR zone was a free to roam map where players had the choice of where to attack, when to attack, and with how many players. Complete battlefield freedom (even the freedom to not take part) allowed for RvR and DAOC to become one of the most successful MMOs of its time.”

  • JTGuevara.9018JTGuevara.9018 Member ✭✭✭

    The problem is not so much zerg, but ELITE SPECS. Powercreep in wvw means that people do more damage and they're harder to kill. This is all thanks to blocks, evades, etc. Not to mention, zergs stack a lot of support and sustain as a whole making it near impossible to kill just one person unless they're separated.

  • Stand The Wall.6987Stand The Wall.6987 Member ✭✭✭✭

    uhh its world versus world not party versus party.
    I think that they should lower the map cap a lot tho if they are gonna use crappy amazon servers and overload their own crappy software with tons and tons of flashy skill animations, pulsing aoe, boon/ condi spam, mounts, etc. etc.

    The horror...…….the horror...…….the horror...…….

  • DeadlySynz.3471DeadlySynz.3471 Member ✭✭✭

    Well for 1, Anet doesn't seem to balance around zergs; in fact, they don't seem to have a clear path on what they are balancing around when it comes to WvW. On top of that, WvW is not about small scale fighting, it never has, and it never will be. You have to imagine though even if they completely balanced around groups of 5-10, what happens when a group of 50 (1 spammers) encounters that group of 5 to 10? Same thing, they still get run over as if they never even existed.

    It really has nothing to do with small scale balance, and everything to do providing no incentive to destack themselves from larger groups. Down state is a perfect example of this; it exclusively favors large numbers. Stacking on top of one another to mitigate damage is another zerg favoring tactic. So perhaps the answer isn't touch the classes per say, but more so to remove downstate, and amplify the damage players take when they are in close proximity to each other.

  • @Shiyo.3578 said:
    I explained why - by trying to balance around zerg PvP, you have not only failed at creating fun and balanced zerg pvp, but you have also done it at the expense of roaming and small scale PvP. Balancing around zerg PvP has zero benefits.

    That’s just your opinion. Plenty of people find it fun. If you don’t like large scale fights then there are already game modes called conquest and pvp that are balanced around small scale fights. The whole point of wvw is large battles.

  • nthmetal.9652nthmetal.9652 Member ✭✭✭

    I don't really see the issue, even if it were true, which I don't believe it is. Of course WvW focuses a bit more around large-scale fights, but that doesn't mean that things, that are seen as blatantly unbalanced in small-scale fights (regardless of whether that is actually true) won't get adressed. Just look at the latest changers to Mirage / Mesmer. They surely weren't adressing any large-scale fight issues because the changes do not really play any role in large scale encounters. They all only adressed things plaing a role in small-scale encounters.

    That said, if you are thinking about small-scale PvP, there is a distinct game mode for that. And it's not WvW.

    "and then we know that we have looked back through the ivory gates into that world of wonder which was ours before we were wise and unhappy"
    -- H. P. Lovecraft - Celephais

  • Solori.6025Solori.6025 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 14, 2019

    @Queen Anastasia.7103 said:
    "sir, the players are complaining about powercreep there's too much damage in the game!"

    "release the warclaw.... let them stare at each other instead. nobody dismounts, nobody gets damaged, nobody dies. perfectly balanced...."

    As all things should be

    /#Thanos

    Tingle my stingleberry

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Short question:
    Which type of player do people think is predominant in WvW zones/content? Is it roamers or some type of zergling(static WvW groups, public blobs, etc.)?

    Commom sense dictates balance should be done for the biggest playerbase, oh and towards the game modes main intent.

    /close topic

  • Shiyo.3578Shiyo.3578 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 14, 2019

    Yes, except for the fact that trying to balance around zerg pvp has done nothing positive for zerg pvp and only made roaming and small scale completely horrific and awful.

    Thus, it's time to just stop.

  • Fatherbliss.4701Fatherbliss.4701 Member ✭✭✭

    Zergs is the answer to this last bit. Its the path of least resistance in most instances. I know what I'm going to get during NA Primetime. Outside of that I can usually land in the sweet spot of 15-20 person fights. Really depends on a ton of factors including which tier you are in or time of day. Balance is tough. Do I like where things are at for balance? Nope, of course not. At the same time I think we all know that players will use every speed boost imaginable to land on the area that will allow them to win. Even with something like double energy sigils if groups get caught the fight is often done.

    Guild leader for Goats of Thunder. No pants allowed.

  • Jski.6180Jski.6180 Member ✭✭✭✭

    GW2 still more balanced arone pve and raids atm even with the skill split at best you saw a number changes only and that not what wrong with wvw skill its the lack of added effects to deal with boons (witch is meaninless in pve).

    See ELE forms and you will get my views.

  • Kaiser.9873Kaiser.9873 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 14, 2019

    WvW is and has been marketed as epic battles, large clashes, etc.
    Small scale roaming is a ancillary feature of WvW, it is not the main focus.
    You want play balanced around small scale? Go play sPvP.

    Does it seem like there's been an influx of ex-PvPers entering WvW lately. Seems every other post wants to make WvW more like sPvP.

  • spectrito.8513spectrito.8513 Member ✭✭✭

    @Shiyo.3578 said:
    Yes, except for the fact that trying to balance around zerg pvp has done nothing positive for zerg pvp and only made roaming and small scale completely horrific and awful.

    Thus, it's time to just stop.

    Roaming is dead and small scale are groups that only fight when they have more numbers.
    On NA, less populated servers have barely any tags running off peak times, so people just log off and wait for prime time.
    On more populated servers it's only about the k-train.

    WvW is a joke as a PvP mode.

  • Widmo.3186Widmo.3186 Member ✭✭✭

    @Kaiser.9873 said:
    WvW is and has been marketed as epic battles, large clashes, etc.
    Small scale roaming is a ancillary feature of WvW, it is not the main focus.
    You want play balanced around small scale? Go play sPvP.

    Does it seem like there's been an influx of ex-PvPers entering WvW lately. Seems every other post wants to make WvW more like sPvP.

    "Epic battles" against other players, so why would you use PvE balance where you fight only vs mobs? PvP starts being boring at some point, some quitted like season 4, some season 9 and some now. For some ppl (like me included) WvW small scale is more amusing than PvP because here you just simply duel/do outnumber fights/roam with friends without need of holding conquest points and thingys.
    But I agree, why would PvP balance occur in WvW? Its just another mode that should be left alone, until another person (maybe you this time) will slack behind fellow zerg and get caught by random roaming revenant that in WvW has neither nerfed sword nor staff damage :)

    Dont mind me, I just randomly spam 35 skill-buttons

  • Shiyo.3578Shiyo.3578 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 14, 2019

    @Widmo.3186 said:
    "Epic battles" against other players, so why would you use PvE balance where you fight only vs mobs? PvP starts being boring at some point, some quitted like season 4, some season 9 and some now. For some ppl (like me included) WvW small scale is more amusing than PvP because here you just simply duel/do outnumber fights/roam with friends without need of holding conquest points and thingys.
    But I agree, why would PvP balance occur in WvW? Its just another mode that should be left alone, until another person (maybe you this time) will slack behind fellow zerg and get caught by random roaming revenant that in WvW has neither nerfed sword nor staff damage :)

    I'm glad someone gets it. The last sentence, especially. It just feels like a sick joke to be playing the WORST version of PvP for...absolutely no reason. Zergs aren't better balanced, and small scale/roaming is actually just...borderline unplayable, to be honest.

    @Kaiser.9873 said:
    WvW is and has been marketed as epic battles, large clashes, etc.
    Small scale roaming is a ancillary feature of WvW, it is not the main focus.
    You want play balanced around small scale? Go play sPvP.

    Does it seem like there's been an influx of ex-PvPers entering WvW lately. Seems every other post wants to make WvW more like sPvP.

    Give me a middle ground (wow bgs like arathi basin) and I wouldn't be complaining. We have competitive esports team based 5v5 PvP, and 100 vs 100 PvP. There's no medium scale PvP, and WvW can't be that because of awful, awful balance.

  • Aeolus.3615Aeolus.3615 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 14, 2019

    @shiri.4257 said:

    @Shiyo.3578 said:
    I explained why - by trying to balance around zerg PvP, you have not only failed at creating fun and balanced zerg pvp, but you have also done it at the expense of roaming and small scale PvP. Balancing around zerg PvP has zero benefits.

    Zerg pvp is fun when you are winning. Not so much when you have an undisciplined squad of roamers trying to Zerg.

    I would say Zerg is only fun when it’s needed due atacking andecent defense keep, sadly there’s no other reason than Ktrain, when it’s a challange on the other side, whe its a ktrain vs empty server it’s just a bunch of idiots playing a game w/o challange, lost of brain activity issues or something...

    Keeps need a treasure room so the guilds taking care of those places want them defenses rather tha. Ignore and let it cap....

    If Anet keep up with this idiotic wannabe siege mode rather remove all walls and call this alliance battles like we had on gw1..pve players will love it and players can communicate to ktrain shrines and avoid fighting each other.

  • Anput.4620Anput.4620 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 14, 2019

    @hunkamania.7561 said:
    WVW is about large scale fights. why appeal to the small numbers that roam when you can appeal to most the players that want to ktrain?

  • Anput.4620Anput.4620 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 14, 2019

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    @Shiyo.3578 said:
    Currently, zerg PvP's meta is not fun, nor is it balanced in any way. It also lags sometimes for people even on top end PC's depending on the zerg size(s).

    On top of this, by balancing around(and not even creating good balance) zerg PvP, you have completely destroyed roaming, 1v1, and small scale PvP. There are far, far, FAR too many completely gimmicky impossible to kill, or 1 shot builds in WvW compared to sPvP.

    Energy sigil being 2x as strong, endure pain lasting 2x as long are just some examples of making players much harder to kill in WvW than SPvP. What this does is encourage people to play brick wall builds that, if attacked, can easily run away spamming invuls/dodges/blocks/evades until they get to their tower. If you are not fighting this type of build, you're fighting some player who can immediately 1 shot you or perma stealth forever while slowly killing you with zero ways to interact with them. This makes roaming very boring and unsatisfying.

    By balancing around zerg PvP, you have not created fun zerg PvP, while at the same time you have created completely unbearable roaming and small scale PvP to the point where very few people want to do roaming or small scale due to how many unfun builds there are that either cannot die, can run away from anything, or are perma stealth/1 shotting you.

    This doesn't even get into mounts which were implemented in a very unfun way, and probably not thought about much at all. Mounts make roaming/small scale, which is already bad, even worse.

    My proposal is this:

    Balance around small scale/roaming. Use SPvP balance, do not balance around zergs. This way, roaming and small scale PvP is at least enjoyable, while zerg PvP will be just as badly balanced and unfun as it currently is while you are attempting to only balance around zerg PvP. At least this way, some of WvW will be fun instead of 100% of it being unfun. Balancing around zergs has not made zerg pvp any more fun or more balanced, and the cost of doing so has completely destroyed and ruined small scale/roaming pvp.

    What is GW2 WvW?

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/World_versus_World
    “The inspiration for World versus World came from Dark Age of Camelot's realm vs. realm battles."

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_Age_of_Camelot
    “The game combines Arthurian lore, Norse mythology and Irish Celtic legends with a dash of high fantasy. It is set in the period after King Arthur's death and his kingdom has split into three parts which are in a constant state of war with each other. DAoC includes both Player versus Environment (PvE) and Realm versus Realm (RvR) combat.”

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Realm_versus_Realm
    “In 2001, Mythic Entertainment introduced a new team-based form of PvP combat with the release of Dark Age of Camelot and called it Realm versus Realm. In Realm vs Realm the rules would be similar to PvP combat. Where a single combatant or a group faces one another in PvP. RVR introduces entire Factions fighting each other. RvR was also made more interesting by bypassing the normal "red vs blue" type team battles seen in most games at the time. For RvR, they created a third faction to bring about a large scale "Rock-Paper-Scissors" experience. Last they chose to allow Realm vs Realm to be played out in an open world PvP environment known as the RvR zone. The RvR zone was a free to roam map where players had the choice of where to attack, when to attack, and with how many players. Complete battlefield freedom (even the freedom to not take part) allowed for RvR and DAOC to become one of the most successful MMOs of its time.”

    Wow this video makes it look so cool where it looks like an RTS where you are 1 unit with many battles, i as a roamer joined this game for this aspect really.

    But yeah it is just monoblob ktraining now vs a door so yeah. Epic battles i see rarely, it's basically silverwastes.

  • Kaiser.9873Kaiser.9873 Member ✭✭✭

    @Shiyo.3578 said:

    @Widmo.3186 said:
    "Epic battles" against other players, so why would you use PvE balance where you fight only vs mobs? PvP starts being boring at some point, some quitted like season 4, some season 9 and some now. For some ppl (like me included) WvW small scale is more amusing than PvP because here you just simply duel/do outnumber fights/roam with friends without need of holding conquest points and thingys.
    But I agree, why would PvP balance occur in WvW? Its just another mode that should be left alone, until another person (maybe you this time) will slack behind fellow zerg and get caught by random roaming revenant that in WvW has neither nerfed sword nor staff damage :)

    I'm glad someone gets it. The last sentence, especially. It just feels like a sick joke to be playing the WORST version of PvP for...absolutely no reason. Zergs aren't better balanced, and small scale/roaming is actually just...borderline unplayable, to be honest.

    @Kaiser.9873 said:
    WvW is and has been marketed as epic battles, large clashes, etc.
    Small scale roaming is a ancillary feature of WvW, it is not the main focus.
    You want play balanced around small scale? Go play sPvP.

    Does it seem like there's been an influx of ex-PvPers entering WvW lately. Seems every other post wants to make WvW more like sPvP.

    Give me a middle ground (wow bgs like arathi basin) and I wouldn't be complaining. We have competitive esports team based 5v5 PvP, and 100 vs 100 PvP. There's no medium scale PvP, and WvW can't be that because of awful, awful balance.

    You're asking for a completely different game mode. This game has 5v5 and 80v80. It doesn't have 15v15 or 40v40 like WoW. Also there are times that you can get groups of 15 or 20 to fight. The trick is keeping those fights to yourself, and not broadcasting it to the whole BL.

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