If Anet changed certain skills from Firebrand healer from 5 man to 10 would they raid more then? — Guild Wars 2 Forums

If Anet changed certain skills from Firebrand healer from 5 man to 10 would they raid more then?

Only healers I see in a raid a druids (Only raid in trainings so not sure how other raids go about their healers)
Just did Vale Guardian with 2 druids... 2!
Was checking the guide section of the firebrand healer page and it said the block a firebrand can provide can help block a teleport from VG
The number 1 killer of newer players in Vale Guardian!

"Use Mantra of Solace when you see Unstable Magic Spike. You might get lucky and it could prevent someone from getting teleported."

Chrono's can also provide block with Distortion skill but they have far fewer blocks then a Firebrand can provide so dont go but its a training they have to learn on me...

There is also Renegade Alicrity skill that provides for 5 man only, If that could be changed to 10 it would complement Firebrand more

Whats your stance on abilities that only can only buff 5 people?
Should more skills be changed to 10?
Would we have more variation if more key abilities got changed to 10 man?

I myself am going to see If I can snuck my firebrand in the next raid training, now that I know more what I can provide for a team

Comments

  • Sigfodr.9576Sigfodr.9576 Member ✭✭

    @Rico.6873 said:
    There is also Renegade Alicrity skill that provides for 5 man only, If that could be changed to 10 it would complement Firebrand more

    Renegate alicrity is already 10 man (traited), and assuming the group run both a druid healer and a renegate (or FB) healer the renegate should always run this trait.

    Some groups only run 1 healer and in those cases druid is the best pick, as you need the buffing (a few exceptions, but generally).

    But for ANY group where a group run 2 healers, heal FB, heal renegate, heal scourge, heal tempest or heal scrapper is ALWAYS the better option (TL only exception as the group split up).

    The main reason alot of LFG groups still ask for 2*druids and even some training groups do so is that they are stuck in the old meta from ages ago, thats sad but its life.

    Will it help to make FB 10 man, sure. But tbh FB heal is already insanely strong and making many bosses free kills. Not to mention that it is insanely OP in WvW (and prob will get nerfed there at some point). So no real reason to make anything on FB 10 man imo.

  • Not really. Reasons why most of the groups uses druids is simple - they are not just healers but supports as well. They provide fury, might, swiftness, regeneration and unique buffs with spirits and they also help with vulnerability on bosses and also provide passive buff spotter which lots of classes needs to get 100% crit chance. And they have tons of CC. FB cant really substitute this. No spirits, no spotter, no unique buffs (maybe signet but thats not that great) and not that great CC or utility. Also you should think about mechanics - as FB for example you cant really push seekers on Vale Guardian while druid can. Other thing is that with FB you will alwayes have at least 1250 toughness which will force either you to tank or your tank to rise his toughness (most chronos i know tank with 1005 toughness) and if you will tank VG you cant distort greens for yourself like chronos do so you will propably get downed a lot. If you do overheal tactics of course which even pugs do in these days.

    If you want to take firebrand as support into raids you can do it with some hybrit compoziton - firebrand, alacrigades (you can provide 10 ppl with alacrity as revenant with correct traits i believe) but you still need druids. And its usually not the most effective setup for your group. These compozitions are great for fractals mostly.

    One more thing - in raids you dont really need 2 healers. Experience ppl can do with just one druid and sometimes even without druid just with soulbeast with spirits(sabetha for example). Only thing that really dmgs you is boss aura and thats all. If you are exp player of course. So there is no reason for exp players to even consider bringing classes that provide less support but more healing - like scourge, fb, scrappers etc. You take those healers for only one reason: to carry training groups and thats it. In raids you dont have classic trio heal, tank, dmg - you have more like heal+support(harrier druid), heal+dmg(condi druid), tank+support(one chrono), tank+dmg(off chrono), dmg+support (banner slave warr) and then dmg. So as long as fb and others cant replace druids or chronos and provide some unique buffs they will stay mostly out of meta.

  • Krzysztof.5973Krzysztof.5973 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 11, 2019

    FB heal is just a downgrade from quickbrand either power or condi. Going healer is just a waste of a slot for FB.

  • LadyKitty.6120LadyKitty.6120 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 11, 2019

    First off, Kitty's multiple times suggested that Empowering Might-trait's target count was increased to 10 to become equal with GotL from druid and Shared Empowerment+Facets from Herald but they haven't gone it this far. Though ofc even at 100% BD it'd only provide 13-15 stacks of might for 10, realistically, but it'd already go a long way. Since Potent Haste also provides some might and the (low-BD dps-)quickbrand in the other sub also has Potent Haste (and most likely uses scepter as 2nd main-hand), the firebrand alone would provide about 20-22 might uptime for the squad and classes usually bring a couple stacks on their own.
    Second, Kitty will refer to various classes providing fury and swiftness later in this post. Some classes don't natively provide them, but those classes can use Pack runes to provide at least 55-60% uptime on them. (which obviously nerfs the heal-output a bit but those classes are usually used in 2-healer-comps and traditionally used Altruism runes before rune revamp.)

    And then, the amount of misinformation and misunderstanding in this thread is just...astonishing. So, Kitty corrects a bit.
    "There is also Renegade Alicrity skill that provides for 5 man only, If that could be changed to 10 it would complement Firebrand more"
    Renegade's Righteous Rebel-trait increases Orders from Above's target count to 10 and if you get at least about 80% boon duration from gears, you can keep up full alacrity for 10 as a renegade (as long as people are even remotely stacked when you use it).
    "Reasons why most of the groups uses druids is simple - they are not just healers but supports as well. "
    All classes (except thief and warrior) can provide a good bit of boon support if built to provide boons (which most peoples don't do since people have this misconception that 2nd healer can be a pure healer and therefore 2nd sub's fury uptimes have been abysmal lately). Though heal-chrono can't provide much might (but still provides most of the stuff normal support chrono brings, even 60% of q+a) but others can provide at least almost full for 5, usually more. Thief and warrior simply lack the heal output to become proper healers.
    " as FB for example you cant really push seekers on Vale Guardian while druid can."
    Heal-FB's Shield of Absorption pushes the seekers away and Heated Rebuke can also be used to pull them a bit away.
    "also provide passive buff spotter which lots of classes needs to get 100% crit chance"
    Condibuilds get less than 1% damage increase from that. The dps-classes that require spotter are power elementalist, power ranger, power warrior, power guardian (if using Perfect Inscriptions), power herald, power reaper (if using Soul Eater) and power chronomancer (if using Improved Alacrity). Power holosmith, power thief, power renegade, power guardian (if using Righteous Instincts), power reaper (if using Decimate Defenses) and power chronomancer (if using Danger Time) don't need spotter for 100% crit rate. And Spotter also has 5-target-count and since people usually use 2 5-man-subs and Spotter prefers your sub, you'll only need Spotter for the sub if you want 100% crit rate on the aforementioned classes that require it. If the sub has condi-dps's or power dps's that get 100% crit rate with banners and fury, insisting on druid for that sub for Spotter is, if Kitty may say, sheer stupidity.
    "if you will tank VG you cant distort greens for yourself like chronos do so you will propably get downed a lot. If you do overheal tactics of course which even pugs do in these days."
    If you're playing heal-FB with mace, you have so many blocks that it'll be very difficult to get downed by green explosion and VG's attacks before or after it. If things go bad, you might get downed once as heal-FB but getting downed a lot means you don't know how to heal-FB. Kitty's even tanked VG with scepter+axe as main-hands for excessive boon output without issues.
    "If you want to take firebrand as support into raids you can do it with some hybrit compoziton - firebrand, alacrigades (you can provide 10 ppl with alacrity as revenant with correct traits i believe) but you still need druids."
    Only if you require that Spotter for the sub. If you insist on bringing Frost Spirit (5% bonus on power damage, 1.0-1.5% dps boost for condibuilds) and Sun Spirit(2 stacks of 2,5s burn every 8 seconds at 0% condition duration), you can also bring spirit soulbeast (though Kitty knows that soulbeasts are even less happy about bringing spirits than mirages are about taking Feedback). And if you look at the numbers above, you can easily see that Frost Spirit is quite worthless if most of the squad are condi (about 1% more squad dps) and Sun Spirit is almost useless (20 stacks of 2,5s burn every 8 seconds without condidamage to power it) if squad is mostly power. Alternative healers (tempest, herald, renegade, engineer, firebrand) can usually provide at least good bit of protection so Stone Spirit is rarely NEEDED.
    Many classes bring vulnerability so requiring Storm Spirit needs a quite specific comp. And further more, Storm Spirit only provides 3 stacks of vulnerability for 6 seconds every 10 seconds (at 0% condition duration) which means 30 stacks for 6 seconds which means avg. 18-20 stacks if squad is mostly power (a bit higher if squad has lots of condidpsers with high OVERALL condiduration). And furthermore, Storm Spirit's effect only triggers on ONE target per 10 seconds (Kitty tested this) which means...it won't trigger much on boss if there's lots of adds to eat the procs. And if people need to go away from boss to do mechanics, that's obviously even less vulnerability stacks. So, Storm Spirit is only worth it if 1. squad seriously doesn't have people with vulnerability output 2. the boss doesn't have adds 3. if avg. 2 players of less need to be away from squad to do the mechs and 4. if damage pressure isn't high enough to kill storm spirit.
    And these conditions ofc make Storm Spirit mainly decent at Matthias, Cairn, MO, Sam and Largos.
    "One more thing - in raids you dont really need 2 healers. Experience ppl..."
    Let Kitty correct the form: "In raids you don't really need 2 healers if the squad is experienced and executes the mechanics smoothly without failures." If you have a good static, that's probably the case. If you don't have a good static, you usually need either one very excellent healer or 2 decent healers. Or 2 excellent healers if people act as mechanical damage sponges.
    "So as long as fb and others cant replace druids or chronos and provide some unique buffs"
    Read: Spotter (if one sub needs it) and spirits. Kitty's written above about the conditions where they're the most beneficial and when they aren't. Might, fury, swiftness, protection can usually be provided by most heal-classes. Quickness can be provided by quickbrands (which do a LOT higher dps than support chronos ever could if dps-version due to requiring much lower boon duration) and alacrity can be provided by renegade (while also bringing Assassin's Presence, an unique buff). Power/Alacrity Renegade can also dps quite decently by getting 78% boon duration through diviner's gear pieces (+pack runes if coupled with heal-FB that doesn't use pack runes or axe) mixed with zerker's. So if you want another powerful comp, you can run 2 dps-quickbrands, 1 dps-alacgade, 10-man-might+furybot/healer(druid, sc+wh tempest or herald), Spirit Soulbeast (if you really want Frost and/or Sun Spirit and don't have druid), banner berserker and rest dps.
    "FB heal is just a downgrade from quickbrand either power or condi. Going healer is just a waste of a slot for FB."
    In good statics, yush. In less skilled dual-healer firebragade comps, heal-quickbrand+10-target-mightbot/healer with dps-quickbrand and dps-alacgade can also be a good option due to heal-firebrand's superior damage mitigation (through lots of well-timed blocks) compared to heal-alacgade (which can't prevent any incoming damage, just heal after its happened).

    Apologies for a super-long post again, but Kitty felt like she needed to clarify some things (and perhaps dem numbers here might give peoples a slightly better idea about druid's relative superiority). Kitty's also posted another thread about dem alternative healers' real boonbot capabilities and how to build them to give a better idea about what the builds are capable of, though she should stop procrastinating and finish the last couple incomplete build guides in it.

    E: And Kitty forgot to mention that technically, Firebrand can actually provide quickness for 10 atm by triggering Stalwart Speed-trait with "Stand Your Ground!". Though it's just 4 seconds at 100% boon duration every 24 seconds (assuming perfect alacrity) and you'll need to avoid giving aegis or stab for 7 seconds before using it but still...it works.

    It's Kitty. The young lady who streams and records videos playing various (non-)metabuilds. Raid/fractal videos at youtube.com/LadyKitty, announcements and news at twitter.com/LadyKittyGW2 and streams at twitch.tv/ladykittygw2 . Build guides at https://kittymarks.wixsite.com/kittymarks .

  • RaidsAreEasyAF.8652RaidsAreEasyAF.8652 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 11, 2019

    @rchristianhk.3914 said:
    They provide fury, might, swiftness, regeneration

    Thats not unique to ranger.

    and unique buffs with spirits

    Soulbeast can take the spirits, they are not unique to druid, only to ranger.

    and they also help with vulnerability on bosses

    A lot of classes do. Also one Druid with Storm spirit is enough for the vuln.

    and also provide passive buff spotter

    Yeah okay, that can be big depending on the class. Though how many pugs play with 4-5 DPS classes that all need spotter?
    You can probably also take the Cheaper Crit Chance + Fero Food. Considering that you are running 2 Healers anyway you might as well do this.

    And they have tons of CC. FB cant really substitute this.

    Druid CC with Primal Echoes and 2 CC Pets: 814, 964 if you quick draw Lunar Impact.
    Firebrand with Spirit Hammer instead of Bow: 750
    You could probably take Hammer on some bosses if you are the second healer. That would be 982 Break Bar Damage.

    FB for example you cant really push seekers on Vale Guardian while druid can.

    Shield Push?

    Other thing is that with FB you will alwayes have at least 1250 toughness which will force either you to tank or your tank to rise his toughness (most chronos i know tank >with 1005 toughness) and if you will tank VG you cant distort greens for yourself like chronos do so you will propably get downed a lot. If you do overheal tactics of course >which even pugs do in these days.

    So what exactly is the difference to groups running the FB+Renegade comp and having the Chrono tank mid anyway?
    Other bosses arent a problem to tank on a healer.

    One more thing - in raids you dont really need 2 healers. Experience ppl can do with just one druid and sometimes even without druid just with soulbeast with spirits(sabetha for example).

    That one is true. If you are good enough you dont need a second healer.

  • DirtyDan.4759DirtyDan.4759 Member ✭✭✭

    Go tempest if you want 10 man healing.

  • Safandula.8723Safandula.8723 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Pugs are to lazy to learn and improve, so they will keep playing druids, even if anet deletes spirits

  • 10 person firebrand tomes would be ridiculously overpowered in wvw. As far as i know anet doesnt like splitting 5 and 10 person skills between gamemodes.

  • Nimon.7840Nimon.7840 Member ✭✭✭✭

    FB is already played...
    Mostly used as tank+heal
    Just saw it in the new raid that released yesterday.
    At the earth dude

  • thrag.9740thrag.9740 Member ✭✭✭

    Here's my opinion. Anet needs to pick a side and stay there. Either just get it over with and make all boon skills 10 man in pve, or make them all 5 man. I'm the person who has to organize things for my raid static such as boons, and this has all become such a pain in the but. It is especially frustrating that chrono soi was nerfed for 5 man and then buffed with a 10 man trait. As a result, it feels like you either go 2 chrono or double firebrigade. I hate all of the current meta. Nothing is modular. I can't just swap a chrono for a firebrand or a renegade.

    Making it easier to swap classes in a modular way would make groups a lot more willing to use different setups. If the chrono in my raid wants to run firebrand, I can't just say, 'ok do it'. I have to rearrange several other players roles. Awful.

  • Blue.1207Blue.1207 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 12, 2019

    @thrag.9740 said:
    Here's my opinion. Anet needs to pick a side and stay there. Either just get it over with and make all boon skills 10 man in pve, or make them all 5 man. I'm the person who has to organize things for my raid static such as boons, and this has all become such a pain in the but. It is especially frustrating that chrono soi was nerfed for 5 man and then buffed with a 10 man trait. As a result, it feels like you either go 2 chrono or double firebrigade. I hate all of the current meta. Nothing is modular. I can't just swap a chrono for a firebrand or a renegade.

    Making it easier to swap classes in a modular way would make groups a lot more willing to use different setups. If the chrono in my raid wants to run firebrand, I can't just say, 'ok do it'. I have to rearrange several other players roles. Awful.

    Agree'd but honestly if anet makes FB abilities primarily 10 man then they've gone full circle in regards to the "have have class" in a raid comp. FB as it is is so stupidly over-tuned. It's just an endless boon bot that will probably started to be randomly/heavily nerfed as we get closer to the next set of elite specs.

  • Shiyo.3578Shiyo.3578 Member ✭✭✭

    Spotter is why druid will forever be good in raids.

    Delete spotter.

  • Miellyn.6847Miellyn.6847 Member ✭✭✭

    @Shiyo.3578 said:
    Spotter is why druid will forever be good in raids.

    Delete spotter.

    There were a lot of builds that were crit-capped without spotter before the last balance patch.
    The reason why druid is still in the meta is the combination of Chrono, spirits, easy might stack and low healing requirements. Spotter is just a bonus.

  • Zhaid Zhem.6508Zhaid Zhem.6508 Member ✭✭✭

    In condi comp ; FB support shares 216*2 condition damage for 10sec every 20sec with radiance spec.

  • thrag.9740thrag.9740 Member ✭✭✭

    @Blue.1207 said:
    Agree'd but honestly if anet makes FB abilities primarily 10 man then they've gone full circle in regards to the "have have class" in a raid comp. FB as it is is so stupidly over-tuned. It's just an endless boon bot that will probably started to be randomly/heavily nerfed as we get closer to the next set of elite specs.

    Well its too late now, but my opinion back when 5k dps chaos chrono was a thing was to just make that the standard. I.e. give multiple classes 5k dps builds that could do pretty much every boon in the game at rates similar to chaos chrono. Give firebrand 5 man alacrity on all its quickness skills in pve, give herald 5 man quickness on all its alacrity skills in pve. That way all 3, chrono,firebrand,and herald would be fairly modular, all capable of handling 5 man quickness,alacrity,fury,might etc. Then the differences would be things like chrono pulls/portals vs higher healing from firebrand etc. I.e. you could still optimize by choosing which one you wanted, but at the same time casual groups could just run whichever they had available without too big a sacrifice, still having boons. Additionally by making everything 5 man you allow more flexibility, you keep it so raid and fractal builds are similar, and equally flexible.

  • yusayu.3629yusayu.3629 Member ✭✭✭

    Firebrigade is already the meta comp for raids. Chronos+Druids just can't compare to the absurd DPS that comp can put out while still providing the game's strongest boons at the press of a single button.

  • Henrik.7560Henrik.7560 Member ✭✭✭

    Firebrand healer is awesome, heals while doing more reliable quickness than chrono, and better resses with mi than druid nerfed spirit

    [eA] Sakura | Kaineng

  • melandru.3876melandru.3876 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 16, 2019

    rene+fb has surpassed chrono+druid for months

    it will take a while before pugs get along with the changes (or effort, some took literally months to gear 1 single character so they will play it untill the end of times)

  • Henry.5713Henry.5713 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Something I seem to miss is why people who insist on having a secondary healer don't simply turn towards a FB/FB/Renegade composition. That trio will outperform any Druid/X duo as far as healing is concerned while providing all of the boons in the world, Signet Sharing, strong CC, etc. You can even throw Pack runes on all of them for good measure if you are concerned about Might and Fury uptimes. Not to mean the freed up squad slot you gain. Allows you to take another DPS or even better a Soulbeast for DPS and spirits.

    Progress isn't made by early risers. It's made by lazy men trying to find easier ways to do something. ~ Robert Heinlein

  • thrag.9740thrag.9740 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 18, 2019

    @Henry.5713 said:
    Something I seem to miss is why people who insist on having a secondary healer don't simply turn towards a FB/FB/Renegade composition.

    As someone who leads a static, I can tell your my personal stance. Its hard to get motivated to optimize and adapt to a new meta for content that we've been clearing for so long. Now that the new raid is out, we are beginning the transition. But if the meta gets overhauled a year from now with no new raids? ehh its a lot of work for a clear that we are already going to get one way or another.

    For perspective, over the years, a large number of my raiders went from active player, to only logging in for raids, to not logging in at all.

©2010–2018 ArenaNet, LLC. All rights reserved. Guild Wars, Guild Wars 2, Heart of Thorns, Guild Wars 2: Path of Fire, ArenaNet, NCSOFT, the Interlocking NC Logo, and all associated logos and designs are trademarks or registered trademarks of NCSOFT Corporation. All other trademarks are the property of their respective owners.