Frenzy - Implement the ammo system to make it useful?

So I quite liked how they changed "on your mark" with the ammo system. We now see it in some pvp builds, and I even use it in wvsw sometimes now.

So I was thinking we try somethign similar with one of the other utilities that suffered like on your mark used to.....frenzy.

If you remember, Frenzy stopped being useful when quickness stopped applying to flag stomping. Since then its cd has been nerfed down from 60 seconds to what it is now, but no other changes.

Would propose that we give it 2-3 ammo. Something close to a 5 second delay between, same as on your mark uses. And we split the 6 seconds of quickness into three 2s or buff it to 2.5s or 3s intervals.So for example:

Frenzy:Quickness: 3sMaximum Count: 3Count Recharge: 30s

So you can effectively hit it once...granting 3s quickness. Then after those 3 seconds, you wait 2 seconds, then you can proc another 3 seconds quickness. Then that process can be repeated one more time. Then it takes 30 seconds from the use of each count to recharge each said count.

If you remember frenzy has might currently. I don't think or see the might as being pivotal to this skill. IF you want might...go for great justice, that's the might one you have access to already. So in terms of balancing frenzy I think the might should be taken out or reduced in favour of increased quickness uptime.

I don't wanna kill the imagination here, or get bogged down by the (its useless then!!! arguments), so if you feel it needs 'more' then we could add might or increase that quickness uptime.

For the love of Bear, yes.

Would you remove the stun break too?

If so, then I prefer it as it is now, though on a 40s cd might get me to drop EP for it. If you'd keep the stun break, then your changes would make it way too powerful, imo.

Also, how do you envision your revised Frenzy working with Last Stand?

Would likely remove the stunbreak. Warrior has enough access to them as is. It would make frenzy more ideal for utility builds rather than direct damage as a result (since you'd take stuff like eternal champion or whatever at the expense of pure damage). Then from there it could play as a damage multiplier for utility builds, so when used at the right moments it would makeup for any dps loss the utility otherwise had blocked.I think we need more utility builds for the class, so I don't see this as a bad thing.

There isn't really a way to keep the stunbreak without it granting literal confusion or OPness.

Couldn't care less about last stand. It could be changed from a stance to something else rather easily. Even if it did grant vigor and another second......I don't see that being a problem.

@Cerby.1069 said:Would likely remove the stunbreak. Warrior has enough access to them as is. It would make frenzy more ideal for utility builds rather than direct damage as a result (since you'd take stuff like eternal champion or whatever at the expense of pure damage)

lol, you wouldn't take berserker in the first place though.

@Cerby.1069 said:Couldn't care less about last stand. It could be changed from a stance to something else rather easily. Even if it did grant vigor and another second......I don't see that being a problem.

Three instances of Frenzy on a 30s cd provide almost permanant uptime of Vigor, once boon buffs and vigor from additional stances or sources are factored in.

With what we're already able to do with dodges, it's something that would have to factor into your proposed change. But I wouldn't personally be in favour of nerfing Last Stand to accommodate changes to Frenzy, just so that Frenzy sees more use.

I would rather keep it as it is if you are proposing that it becomes only a quickness skill and is no longer a stance.

I think the skill becomes useable if its recharge is reduced to 30 seconds, quickness to 3 seconds and everything else stays the same. Adding 6 seconds of swiftness would be pretty cool as well.

30 second cooldown, quickness reduced to 4 seconds, add protection for 4 seconds as well (obviously if you're frenzied, you're feeling no pain, right?).

Ammo system lets you chain stunbreaks, chain quickness and gain a pile of vigor if traited. Might be too good.

@Ludus Rex.1562 said:30 second cooldown, quickness reduced to 4 seconds, add protection for 4 seconds as well (obviously if you're frenzied, you're feeling no pain, right?).

That'd be a nice buff, and I'd probably use it over EP in most cases too.

Retracted/15char

@Ludus Rex.1562 said:30 second cooldown, quickness reduced to 4 seconds, add protection for 4 seconds as well (obviously if you're frenzied, you're feeling no pain, right?).

Ammo system lets you chain stunbreaks, chain quickness and gain a pile of vigor if traited. Might be too good.

....are you even trying to keep things balanced?

@TheSlothArmada.6709 said:

@Cerby.1069 said:Would likely remove the stunbreak. Warrior has enough access to them as is. It would make frenzy more ideal for utility builds rather than direct damage as a result (since you'd take stuff like eternal champion or whatever at the expense of pure damage)

What are you on about? Why wouldn't you take berserker in the first place? The stunbreak isn't a make or break deal FOR BERSERKERS. You get 3 utility slots.....really only 2 of those need to be dedicated, the third can be anything you want. I literally mentioned eternal champion in my post...take that and there is no problem. Ontop of that you have headbutt. And then you have 1-2 endure pains that proc stun breaks, and then if you really need something more you can put it in one of the other utility slots. A berserker has way more stunbreaks than a vanilla warrior would, even if they take this new frenzy that lacks a stunbreak. Why do you need so many stunbreaks? Maybe try dodging.

@GrackFields.7805 said:I would rather keep it as it is if you are proposing that it becomes only a quickness skill and is no longer a stance.

I think the skill becomes useable if its recharge is reduced to 30 seconds, quickness to 3 seconds and everything else stays the same. Adding 6 seconds of swiftness would be pretty cool as well.

Well having used sigil of agility I totally agree that getting small bursts of swiftness and quickness feels amazing. So some implementation could be done in that regard, especially since were in a boonstrip meta.I do not think might should be a necessary component of this skill, I maintain it really overlaps too much off of other skills if it does. I do not like overlap. I see a chance for this utility skill to fill a hole that has otherwise been unfilled. Do you not want your warrior to be able to do more and different things?

@Choppy.4183 said:

@Cerby.1069 said:Couldn't care less about last stand. It could be changed from a stance to something else rather easily. Even if it did grant vigor and another second......I don't see that being a problem.

You know, you are free to come up with solutions to your own ideas of what constitutes a problem.Threee instances of frenzy provides too much vigor....sure. Easy solution: split the normal amount of vigor amongst the 3 applications. Other easy solution, the vigor applies once and has its own separate cooldown on 30-60 seconds from its first usage.

And we aren't talking about nerfing last stand......stop trying to turn this into something its not. TO DATE frenzy is unusable, it has NO PLACE in any valid build ANYWHERE. This is an indisputable FACT. Its sole use is for node farming and other miscellaneous pve jargin.So let's not sit there and pretend that any change to something unusable is somehow making last stand, a trait that effects that unusable thing, useless!

Besides, last stand is already useless to the vast majority of warrior builds. Its only purpose is to give vanilla warriors a way to access to stability if they don't take it as a utility.And just cause a trait is affecting this utility doesn't mean we have to provide much if anything in terms of benefit to taking them both.

Frenzy:Quickness: 3sMaximum Count: 3Count Recharge: 30s

I think this is fine.Getting last stand grants:Vigor (6s): +50% Endurance RegenerationStance Duration Increase: 25%

So if you have Frenzy this means:Quickness 3.75sMaximum Count: 3Count Recharge: 30sVigor 6s (30 second cooldown)

This all seems fine to me. I can see people with utility builds chaining it with heavy stuns or their otherwise large windup attacks to get in some good burst blows. In general the usage would allow you to throw enemies off the timing of our otherwise easily telegraphed attacks.

And for those who are against any change:I think we can all agree that the idea of warriors being able to change the timings of their attacks is a huge buff to every build we could possibly take in this game. An otherwise useless skill grants THAT much of a buff to our class even if we don't take the skill. I mean that's a pretty big win.

Extra additions if it needs a buff:-Add swiftness to it. 1-5 seconds per charge is fine probably.

Why do we need vigor again? Might makes right is love might makes right is life. As I've said in another thread this is the rise of the dodgy warrior. I can't get rid of my endurance fast enough.

@Cerby.1069 said:

@"Ludus Rex.1562" said:30 second cooldown, quickness reduced to 4 seconds, add protection for 4 seconds as well (obviously if you're frenzied, you're feeling no pain, right?).

Ammo system lets you chain stunbreaks, chain quickness and gain a pile of vigor if traited. Might be too good.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Haste

Thieves have a stun break on a 30 second recharge that gives 6s Quickness, 6s Swiftness, 6s Fury. Trading 6s Fury and 6s Swiftness along with 2s Quickness for 4s worth of Protection doesn't seem like the most unreasonable thing ever. As a utility skill, I'm not sure it'd imbalanced just because it'd be better than current warrior stance alternatives.

Elixer U, Protect Me, and Spectral Armor all do slightly different things but are also 30 - 40s stunbreaks with comparable power, which either grant Quickness or Protection for longer duration, along with an additional benefit.

@Red Haired Savage.5430 said:Why do we need vigor again? Might makes right is love might makes right is life. As I've said in another thread this is the rise of the dodgy warrior. I can't get rid of my endurance fast enough.

I think it was in response to my comment about Last Stand, which provides 6s of Vigor upon stance application.

And Cerby, I don't think that is possible with how the ammo system works. Each use of Frenzy in your approach would (almost certainly) proc a new application of Vigor from LS. I said I wouldn't personally favour needing LS both to head off that path.

In terms of a better approach, I honestly think adjusting the cd and/or changing the benefits is the simplest and most easy to balance approach. I rather like the suggestion of a 30s cd, reduced Quickness, and the addition if Protection. The Prot may but even be necessary, but I like how he framed it thematically... almost has a Berserker flavor to it.

I do like the new ammo system, but it will cause problems with LS and I don't think stances are what Anet had in mind for it either (the latter is a guess).

@"Ludus Rex.1562" said:https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Haste

Thieves have a stun break on a 30 second recharge that gives 6s Quickness, 6s Swiftness, 6s Fury. Trading 6s Fury and 6s Swiftness along with 2s Quickness for 4s worth of Protection doesn't seem like the most unreasonable thing ever. As a utility skill, I'm not sure it'd imbalanced just because it'd be better than current warrior stance alternatives.

Elixer U, Protect Me, and Spectral Armor all do slightly different things but are also 30 - 40s stunbreaks with comparable power, which either grant Quickness or Protection for longer duration, along with an additional benefit.

I've actually made arguments comparing the engineer elixir u to frenzy before. Infact there's actually quite a few skills between classes that are just like frenzy like you mentioned. Anyways I got shot down hard, cause, and I hate to admit when I'm wrong, classes aren't balanced based on their overall output rather than the output of their individual components. So its bad to compare one to the other. But I understand your point as to how it can work....since another class does it already. Best to look at warrior as a whole though when deciding whether the individual component can be balanced or not.

@Choppy.4183 said:

@"Red Haired Savage.5430" said:Why do we need vigor again? Might makes right is love might makes right is life. As I've said in another thread this is the rise of the dodgy warrior. I can't get rid of my endurance fast enough.

You know people woulda said the exact same thing if I presented the present day ON MY MARK instead. Can we not admit to eachother here and now that the present ON MY MARK is ingenious at what it has accomplished? Like the guy who redesigned it should be given a medal.So why would they make the same argument against it that you have here....?

Why? Cause there's a little thing called:https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Vigorous_Shouts

Ohhhhhhh, now that's interesting isn't it?

Now tell me please.....how would they make THAT work?Healing: 1,000 (1.2)?Adrenaline: 5Recharge Reduced: 20%

Do you know if it procs it twice within 4 seconds with the present on my mark? Cause that's what it says it does. Does anyone really know or care though? I don't know! I've never tested this. Why would I have tested it?Why would that be I wonder....? Why would NOONE KNOW AND NOONE CARE? The old on your mark proc'd once every 48 seconds. This new one,...well it procs twice over 24 seconds! And it can proc within 4 seconds of the first proc!

Now try to tell me with a straight face how my proposal is any different than something THEY ACTUALLY DID AND IT WORKED. The only difference is I'm actually looking into nerfing the effects of the trait that affects it.

Vigorous shouts is NOT all that different from last stand and you know it, only a handful of builds are viable with last stand. Otherwise it is completely outclassed by its meta alternatives rousing resilience, cleansing ire, or in this case phalanx strength.

There, you have your work cut out for ya now as to why this is still a bad idea.

Cause we all know we woulda loved them to leave on my mark as a 30 second cooldown 1 use ability....Cause we all know we woulda loved them to leave frenzy as a 30 second cooldown 1 use ability....

See a pattern here? I do! Let's not do the safe route! Let's be like the guy who redesigned on your mark! Let's give warrior new utility that creates avenues in both the meta and everyday gameplay! WE NEED THE UTILITY my idea offers, and you know it.

Gimme a build to date that uses frenzy! Seriously, give me one that is viable. I dare you. It doesn't exist.

Now give me one with the cooldown lowered to 30 seconds. I dare you. It doesn't exist. Why does it still not exist you ask? Cause it doesn't offer enough utility for anything other than the "do as much damage in 6 seconds as possible vs a stationary target that doesnt fight back" niche situations.

On my mark has opened doors for the warrior as a class. Its not just a niche ability that prevents stealthing for the sake of having such a thing in the class. Its actually viable in real combat! People use it in pvp ranked, I'm repeating myself twice for effect here, but they do use it in pvp and it does work. Stuff like this will always be a little be niche, but it offers enough flexibility and utility to make the warrior as a whole feel more variable and less static. To the extent that an opponent facing the warrior is gonna be considering allllll kinds of builds and weapons you may or may not have. Do you fight a warrior in wvsw WITHOUT watching out for bullsrush now? I don't lol. I HAVE to consider them having it. That's cause it has a friggin dodge built-in now, a very rare and useful ability found not in any of the meta utility skills.

The ammo system coupled with frenzy would give warriors the ability to change the cast times of their skillllsss.....you know how huge that will be! How often have you and others complained how telegraphed our skills are? THis is a FIX to that! Even if you don't use the new frenzy it will create uncertainty in your opponents that otherwise just stare and you and know exactly what is gonna happen.

And have you personally used sigil of agility? the 1 second of quickness and 5 seconds of swiftness on weapon swap? YOu should know then how fluid the quickness and swiftness make you feeeeel, they completely negate the otherwise tank controls that hinder warrior as a class. This is THAT. Let's advocate for THAT to exist in the class!

Honestly Cerby, you're going to have to work on your ability to handle people not agreeing with you. Any time somebody disagrees with you, you get all unravelled.

Frenzy is viable now with any stance build, it just so happens that it's in competition with some of our best skills. You can slot it to replace BS when condi isn't a concern, or EP when not against burst classes or outnumbered. It can also be added as the third utility. It synergizes with Last Stand, Might Make a Right, etc.

As for the difference between Vigorous Shouts and Last Stand, the difference is people still use Last Stand and 21 seconds of Vigor is waaaaay better than 2000 health.

@Choppy.4183 said:Honestly Cerby, you're going to have to work on your ability to handle people not agreeing with you. Any time somebody disagrees with you, you get all unravelled.

Frenzy us viable now with any stance build, it just so happens that it's in competition with some of our best. You can slot it to replace BS when condi isn't a concern, or EP when but against burst classes or outnumbered. It can also be added as the third utility.

As for the difference between Vigorous Shouts and Last Stand, the difference is people still use Last Stand and 21 seconds of Vigor is waaaaay better than 2000 health.

If you can disagree with me with a superior argument, I welcome it. So far you have failed to provide on every discussion we've had.This is all you have as a rebuttal? I guess we're done talking then. Clearly noone can convince you otherwise unless you want them to.

Viable with a "stance build"....oh please. Link your supposedly viable stance builds then. They are all for vanilla warrior I'm guessing. I can think of one already that I used to use, but I would never take frenzy in it over signet of might or stamina or the many other now viable things.

@Choppy.4183 said:

@Red Haired Savage.5430 said:Why do we need vigor again? Might makes right is love might makes right is life. As I've said in another thread this is the rise of the dodgy warrior. I can't get rid of my endurance fast enough.

Yes it was, and like I said why do we need vigor again(just another boon to be corrupted by a necro), when we have awesome traits like might makes right and building momentum? ...Unless you aren't rolling strength line.

Really, this ability needs a change akin to this. It is still being used for the only thing it has been used for since launch day:

Getting a cheap guaranteed kill in WvW/PvP once every minute with CC+Hundred Blades. Snore.

Something like this would actually make me put it on my skill bar. Heck, if you want to make it even more thematic/balanced you could put a like 1 second Weakness on self afterwards to simulate the fatigue after the frenzied rage or something.

@Cerby.1069 said:Viable with a "stance build"....oh please. Link your supposedly viable stance builds then. They are all for vanilla warrior I'm guessing.

You're unaware that stances have been the backbone of just about every build in pvp and wvw for years now?

The rest of your post is nonsensical. Someone else has already proposed a version that's better than I came up with, and far better than yours. If there's anyone here unable to be convinced, it's you.

@Red Haired Savage.5430 said:Yes it was, and like I said why do we need vigor again(just another boon to be corrupted by a necro), when we have awesome traits like might makes right and building momentum? ...Unless you aren't rolling strength line.

Because it's amaaaaaaazing, especially with the Strength line. Adding in an Energy sigil makes it even better.

@Choppy.4183 said:

@Cerby.1069 said:Viable with a "stance build"....oh please. Link your supposedly viable stance builds then. They are all for vanilla warrior I'm guessing.

Not trying to be overly confrontational, but it does get hard to take Cerby seriously when he posits that On My Mark having 2 charges in conjunction with Vigorous Shouts is amazing when that utility skill and that talent are widely unused in PvP. Meanwhile, he questions which warriors are using stances, when a quick review of something like this: https://metabattle.com/wiki/Warrior shows that most competitive PvP warriors (Zerk/Vanilla/Spellbreaker) have a couple stances in their bar.

@Ludus Rex

Indeed. In any case, I think your proposal is the best so far in terms of being achievable, balanced, and fun. A 40s cd may be more reasonable, but I don't think 30s is unreasonable either.

@Choppy.4183 said:@Ludus Rex

Indeed. In any case, I think your proposal is the best so far in terms of being achievable, balanced, and fun. A 40s cd may be more reasonable, but I don't think 30s is unreasonable either.

Thanks. I'm open to the idea of Frenzy not being a stun breaker, and offering something different in terms of utility, I just don't see why the ammo system would be that. It seems like an especially weird choice since 1) chaining quickness via 3 ammo charges could easily become problematic 2) ammo cooldowns don't run simultaneously, so having 3 charges and a 30 second ammo recharge means 90 seconds to refill your stack again. It seems like an "iwin" button that needs to be hit 3 times without adding much.

That said, I like the idea of gaining Weakness when your "frenzy" is over. Oglaf had a slick idea there. That's cool design and kind of a counterbalance. If Frenzy is not a stun breaker, maybe this is the button you go in with when you're trying to seal the deal, but which leaves you vulnerable if you're still fighting and the deal is not yet finished? Maybe it's on a 30 second timer, offers 6s of Quickness, 6s of Fury, 6s of Protection (no stunbreak) but gives you 3s of Weakness and Slow when it expires, so that you really don't want to still be in combat when this thing runs out. Kind of like a "Finish Him" button that offers a solid benefit but also a solid detriment once you're done foaming at the mouth. I like that idea a lot, though the cooldown and duration might need adjusted on both ends until it hits the sweet spot.

I thought Oglaf's idea was interesting too (thematically), but 1s isn't really any kind of impairment and anything more would have me choosing a different skill.

I'm good with the stunbreak staying in with your proposal, and especially if Oglaf's Weakness was added.