nerf rev before everyone quits - Page 2 — Guild Wars 2 Forums

nerf rev before everyone quits

2

Comments

  • Snellibee.2761Snellibee.2761 Member ✭✭✭

    @Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

    @AngelLovesFredrik.6741 said:
    Revs arguably has the same or more blocks than guardian. (Core) while having a plethora of evades to work with.

    Uh?

    It has a ton of evades yes, but it only has two blocks IIRC. And both of those blocks are active.

    Actually one block since nobody plays shield

  • @Dave.6819 said:
    Sometimes i think us players are at fault why this game became what it is now. And Anet... should've never listened to us. But they did. And now we have what we have now. No balance. No decent PvP community. No build diversity. Classes/builds that are chopped down and crippled every now and then by balance devs. And like 70% of PvPers are gone... Yea.. keep on going with your "nerf that nerf that one too" threads you "experts".

    This is indeed true.

    [Charr Noises]
    [Plays every class]
    [JUST GIT EVEN GUDDER ITS FINE]

  • Snellibee.2761Snellibee.2761 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 13, 2019

    @Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @Miyu.8137 said:
    All these topics about nerfing "InsertRandomClass" won't help anything. Can you not be more specific? What exactly do you find OP? What skill? What trait? What utility? When we know, we can actually discuss the problematic parts and evantually propose solution.

    At first, you'd think it's the damage output. But it isn't actually the damage that's the problem, it's the chase potential. You seriously cannot escape a Herald that wants you dead. Between Unrelenting Assault and Phase Traversal, it's too much chase power. If it engages you when you are already low on resources, there is no way to counter play the mixture of its chase potential paired with its very consistent high damage output. Unlike a Soulbeast, who has his kill burst in short intervals that go on significant CDs, the Herald actually has high "Damage Per Second", even with random spam attacks, that ultimately cannot be avoided.

    Preferably Arenanet needs to configure something so that heralds are easier to disengage. If they don't want to do that, they should lower the damage output.

    I think this is reasonable. An energy cost bump to phase traversal might be a good place to start, and if that isn't enough have unrelenting check its range after every hit so that you cant magnet to people that blink/port far away.

    I say that tentatively though. Getting harassed at range by bomb-and-disengage condi builds or projectiles ain't a good feel, and they dont have as much block potential as guards. Gonna need to buff their active defenses if you want them to not stick to you the moment they see you.

    So either nerf damage or nerf chase/buff defense. And depending on when they land from there, condi cleanse or a significant buff to resistance on mallyx to make people consider corruption line.

    The whole idea of revenant is to be able to chase their enemy. That's their role just like thief can chase you forever. Also why do you expect to be able to run away if you're out of cooldowns? You shouldn't be able to survive if you manage your CD's bad and are in a vulnerable spot. That's your fault.
    Turning down mobility and increasing defense will literally make revenant a warrior 2.0.
    Phase Traversal already is 35 energy, it doesn't need any higher energy requirements at all because you can already barely cast any other skill after using Phase Traversal.

    People need to understand that it's actually more worth to duel the Revenant than to try and run away. Revenants aren't particulary good in 1v1's unless the user is very skilled. If that's the case you're just getting outplayed so you have to deal with that.

    The only overtuned skill on Revenant is sword 5. A 20% damage nerf is all that it needs.

    PS: Kiting on non port spots basically nullifies a Revenant so begin with doing that.

  • Azure The Heartless.3261Azure The Heartless.3261 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 13, 2019

    @Snellibee.2761 said:
    The whole idea of revenant is to be able to chase their enemy. That's their role just like thief can chase you forever. Also why do you expect to be able to run away if you're out of cooldowns? You shouldn't be able to survive if you manage your CD's bad and are in a vulnerable spot. That's your fault.

    Nobody said they were out of cooldowns. Trevor said that. I am not of that opinion. You can still be magneted to even if you have disengage cooldowns via phase traversal and unrelenting.
    Also, is it really their role? I thought they were group support. Thats what the majority of their kit seems to be built around.

    Not that I feel they need to be shoehorned into that, but chase potential is only present in one of their traits and weapon types. All of the other traitlines focus on pushing benefits to allies.

    [Charr Noises]
    [Plays every class]
    [JUST GIT EVEN GUDDER ITS FINE]

  • I don't care for nerfs but double rev comp is annoying as hell. Stupid mobility and stupid damage when coordinated well. Duo revs suck to play against unless your teammates play super well.

  • Jack Redline.5379Jack Redline.5379 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @vyncius.6105 said:
    Rev is fine, it has big weakness- condition dmg, once that becomes META, ppl will ask for rev buffs.
    Rev was already hit hard, no need for more.

    this is tru. Rev cant survive against any condi. i said it bilion times ab yea it is true

  • Stallic.2397Stallic.2397 Member ✭✭✭

    @Snellibee.2761 said:

    @Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

    @Snellibee.2761 said:
    The whole idea of revenant is to be able to chase their enemy. That's their role just like thief can chase you forever. Also why do you expect to be able to run away if you're out of cooldowns? You shouldn't be able to survive if you manage your CD's bad and are in a vulnerable spot. That's your fault.

    Nobody said they were out of cooldowns.
    Also, is it really their role? I thought they were group support. Thats what the majority of their kit seems to be built around.

    Not that I feel they need to be shoehorned into that, but chase potential is only present in one of their traits and weapon types. All of the other traitlines focus on pushing benefits to allies.

    "If it engages you when you are already low on resources, there is no way to counter play" --> "I'm low on CD's but it's still unfair that I can't win when I'm targeted by Revenant"

    The meta rev build's role is roaming (and teamfighting). They're only really good in teamfights because Firebrands existing to cleanse their conditions and keep them alive whilst they go ham. Revenant has to be one of the weakest classes vs condition damage and won't survive vs any condi build out there. Considering Scourge is a high used teamfight class focused around condi's, without Firebrand a Revenant would not be able to stay in the teamfight for longer than a couple of seconds.

    Their kit is fit amazing for roaming and +1, they have the ability to do high damage and gank someone unexpected. The thing they lack is sustain and disengagement, which is why they'll only fight with their team and never alone. Just how Revenant is able to chase someone forever if they want to, anyone can chase a Revenant forever if they want to.

    VS. Any condi build?... Yeah, that's not true. As a sage ele, I know Revs can handle the condi burst, block, and retaliate double fold. And they can't be chased... Half of their rotation is cc and disengage, just to pop back in and burst. Their sustain is their worst offender given the tremendous damage they can dish out.

    Scourge is a pain in the kitten and I'm sure Revs have a difficult time fighting them, but that's most classes, not just a Rev problem. I'm sure mastering Harold game play takes skill, but a good Rev is more than just meta.

  • mortrialus.3062mortrialus.3062 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

    @Dave.6819 said:
    Sometimes i think us players are at fault why this game became what it is now. And Anet... should've never listened to us. But they did. And now we have what we have now. No balance. No decent PvP community. No build diversity. Classes/builds that are chopped down and crippled every now and then by balance devs. And like 70% of PvPers are gone... Yea.. keep on going with your "nerf that nerf that one too" threads you "experts".

    This is indeed true.

    Like I said before

    Ever since Path of Fire I've felt that conquest's biggest weakness isn't the mechanics or balance or game mode. It's always been the community holding it back. The game poorly educating players on what to do in the game mode, top tier players (Who religiously play this game, I might add) telling curious potential buyers the game isn't worth playing on their streams several times a day. It's not the balance. It's not the game mode. It's not the systems in place for how to play PvP like Ranked and Automated Tournaments. It's us. It's always been us. We're the problem.

    The Psychomancer: Mesmer Elite Specialization Suggestion

  • Azure The Heartless.3261Azure The Heartless.3261 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 13, 2019

    @Snellibee.2761 said:

    @Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

    @Snellibee.2761 said:
    The whole idea of revenant is to be able to chase their enemy. That's their role just like thief can chase you forever. Also why do you expect to be able to run away if you're out of cooldowns? You shouldn't be able to survive if you manage your CD's bad and are in a vulnerable spot. That's your fault.

    Nobody said they were out of cooldowns.
    Also, is it really their role? I thought they were group support. Thats what the majority of their kit seems to be built around.

    Not that I feel they need to be shoehorned into that, but chase potential is only present in one of their traits and weapon types. All of the other traitlines focus on pushing benefits to allies.

    "If it engages you when you are already low on resources, there is no way to counter play" --> "I'm low on CD's but it's still unfair that I can't win when I'm targeted by Revenant"

    Right right, I saw and updated. Missed that.

    The way it is now, I'm not leaning either way nerf/buff wise. As was brought up multiple times before they are violently allergic to conditions. and since their rotation forces them to mag to you you can certainly load them with those if you run a condi build.

    Yes they have high damage, yes they have high evade. But they also have a glaring, obvious weakness, and really that's all I need from classes here. Something that can easily punch it down if its built properly.

    If you HAVE to nerf it maybe offset its phase traversal a bit more but I dont think its in a position to warrant that right now. I run a Sage Mally/Glint Rev with mainhand mace and usually any rev that puts itself on me kills itself with torment.

    .... Wait-

    Wasn't that the mesmer counterplay too?

    NERF IT
    NERF IT NOW

    [Charr Noises]
    [Plays every class]
    [JUST GIT EVEN GUDDER ITS FINE]

  • Snellibee.2761Snellibee.2761 Member ✭✭✭

    @Stallic.2397 said:

    @Snellibee.2761 said:

    @Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

    @Snellibee.2761 said:
    The whole idea of revenant is to be able to chase their enemy. That's their role just like thief can chase you forever. Also why do you expect to be able to run away if you're out of cooldowns? You shouldn't be able to survive if you manage your CD's bad and are in a vulnerable spot. That's your fault.

    Nobody said they were out of cooldowns.
    Also, is it really their role? I thought they were group support. Thats what the majority of their kit seems to be built around.

    Not that I feel they need to be shoehorned into that, but chase potential is only present in one of their traits and weapon types. All of the other traitlines focus on pushing benefits to allies.

    "If it engages you when you are already low on resources, there is no way to counter play" --> "I'm low on CD's but it's still unfair that I can't win when I'm targeted by Revenant"

    The meta rev build's role is roaming (and teamfighting). They're only really good in teamfights because Firebrands existing to cleanse their conditions and keep them alive whilst they go ham. Revenant has to be one of the weakest classes vs condition damage and won't survive vs any condi build out there. Considering Scourge is a high used teamfight class focused around condi's, without Firebrand a Revenant would not be able to stay in the teamfight for longer than a couple of seconds.

    Their kit is fit amazing for roaming and +1, they have the ability to do high damage and gank someone unexpected. The thing they lack is sustain and disengagement, which is why they'll only fight with their team and never alone. Just how Revenant is able to chase someone forever if they want to, anyone can chase a Revenant forever if they want to.

    VS. Any condi build?... Yeah, that's not true. As a sage ele, I know Revs can handle the condi burst, block, and retaliate double fold. And they can't be chased... Half of their rotation is cc and disengage, just to pop back in and burst. Their sustain is their worst offender given the tremendous damage they can dish out.

    Scourge is a pain in the kitten and I'm sure Revs have a difficult time fighting them, but that's most classes, not just a Rev problem. I'm sure mastering Harold game play takes skill, but a good Rev is more than just meta.

    An actual good ele playing the fire weaver build can easily win from a Rev. Looking at how you explained your experience, it looks like you're a "node is life" kind of player and let the Revenant disengage without trying to chase him. Also, like I said before, jumping on a no port spot where there are plenty of on any map, will make it so the Revenant is not able to jump you at all.

  • Snellibee.2761Snellibee.2761 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 13, 2019

    @Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

    @Snellibee.2761 said:

    @Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

    @Snellibee.2761 said:
    The whole idea of revenant is to be able to chase their enemy. That's their role just like thief can chase you forever. Also why do you expect to be able to run away if you're out of cooldowns? You shouldn't be able to survive if you manage your CD's bad and are in a vulnerable spot. That's your fault.

    Nobody said they were out of cooldowns.
    Also, is it really their role? I thought they were group support. Thats what the majority of their kit seems to be built around.

    Not that I feel they need to be shoehorned into that, but chase potential is only present in one of their traits and weapon types. All of the other traitlines focus on pushing benefits to allies.

    "If it engages you when you are already low on resources, there is no way to counter play" --> "I'm low on CD's but it's still unfair that I can't win when I'm targeted by Revenant"


    Right right, I saw and updated. Missed that.

    The way it is now, I'm not leaning either way nerf/buff wise. As was brought up multiple times before they are violently allergic to conditions. and since their rotation forces them to mag to you you can certainly load them with those if you run a condi build.

    Yes they have high damage, yes they have high evade. But they also have a glaring, obvious weakness, and really that's all I need from classes here. Something that can easily punch it down if its built properly.

    If you HAVE to nerf it maybe offset its phase traversal a bit more but I dont think its in a position to warrant that right now. I run a Sage Mally/Glint Rev with mainhand mace and usually any rev that puts itself on me kills itself with torment.

    .... Wait-

    Wasn't that the mesmer counterplay too?

    NERF IT
    NERF IT NOW

    Like I said, Revenant has its role and it does its role good. The only thing that is not supposed to be the way it is, is the high damage on sword 5 (Deathstrike). Nerf the damage of sword 5 and a lot of complaints will move away because people will not randomly get hit be 6-8k anymore.

  • bluri.2653bluri.2653 Member ✭✭✭

    @AngelLovesFredrik.6741 said:
    Just remove all damage from shiro f2

    this to some extent, remove the scaling of might and make it not being able to crit and im happy

    www.twitch.tv/sindrener - Rank 55 Dragons/Orange Logo/Team Aggression

  • Aza.2105Aza.2105 Member ✭✭✭

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

    @Dave.6819 said:
    Sometimes i think us players are at fault why this game became what it is now. And Anet... should've never listened to us. But they did. And now we have what we have now. No balance. No decent PvP community. No build diversity. Classes/builds that are chopped down and crippled every now and then by balance devs. And like 70% of PvPers are gone... Yea.. keep on going with your "nerf that nerf that one too" threads you "experts".

    This is indeed true.

    Like I said before

    Ever since Path of Fire I've felt that conquest's biggest weakness isn't the mechanics or balance or game mode. It's always been the community holding it back. The game poorly educating players on what to do in the game mode, top tier players (Who religiously play this game, I might add) telling curious potential buyers the game isn't worth playing on their streams several times a day. It's not the balance. It's not the game mode. It's not the systems in place for how to play PvP like Ranked and Automated Tournaments. It's us. It's always been us. We're the problem.

    Its the game mode. The game mode was designed for tournaments. Tournaments that consisted of five players who can communicate in real time with voice. The game mode isn't designed for randoms.

  • @Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

    @AngelLovesFredrik.6741 said:
    Revs arguably has the same or more blocks than guardian. (Core) while having a plethora of evades to work with.

    Uh?

    It has a ton of evades yes, but it only has two blocks IIRC. And both of those blocks are active.

    Guardians can block 4 / 5 single attacks every 35 seconds, give or take. Revenant can block unlimited attacks during a set time (3 seconds?).
    Something like a mesmer clone, iWarlock, precision strike with IO can chunk through all 5 instances of (x3 from focus 5 and X2 aegis from f3.)

    Core guard actually has a very low amount of blocks compared to most other specs.

    ~ God Tier Guardian

  • Arkantos.7460Arkantos.7460 Member ✭✭✭

    what all ppl may forgot is that rev has to be in melee range for dps ....

  • Zexanima.7851Zexanima.7851 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 13, 2019

    @Arkantos.7460 said:
    what all ppl may forgot is that rev has to be in melee range for dps ....

    Not really, you hover at mid range with Rev poking with precision strike and shackling wave until you get them low to go in for the kill. Sticking melee range 24/7 as Rev is a good way to get dead.

    No longer playing the game due to PvP being abandon.

  • Buran.3796Buran.3796 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    Revs: We have the single best build in the game right now but we're still not happy until we have all the best builds in the game.

    ...But that would turn Revs into Mesmers, and I wouldn't be able to endure the nausea.

  • Paradoxoglanis.1904Paradoxoglanis.1904 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 13, 2019

    The problem isnt that revs have ridiculous damage, many builds like spb or holo have similar ttk if they land their burst on you. The problem with rev is that their entire skill loadout is overstacked with very strong abilities.

    They have some of the best mobility and chasing/focusing potential with:
    phase traversal, 5s cooldown 1200 range
    deathstrike, 15s cooldown 600 range
    superspeed, near permanent in assassin, 45s cooldown in glint

    They have many very strong, short cooldown damage skills usable at mid-range:
    sword 2, 3, 4 have 450 range.
    elemental blast has 600 range, burst of strength 300
    surge of the mists - deals less damage from 0 up to 600 range (also a cc)

    They have multiple very strong defensive skills:
    3 evades, 1 being a cc, 1 a stun break&evade, one does damage and follows targets (through teleports even).
    3s instant cast (yes you have to activate the facet first) damage invuln that can heal them to full on a 30s cooldown, all the while they can continue to pressure and do damage.
    2s channeled block/blind on a 15s cooldown.
    4 stun breaks, 2 can be used every 10 seconds. One is an evade as well, one is also a blind, reveal, and applies 10 vuln stacks.

    And on top of all that, they have a second heal, aoe unblockable boon rip, self perma fury, high might stacks, swiftness, quickness for their tp burst, and can output high vulnerability stacks during their burst.

    No class should have such an amazing skill kit.

  • @Snellibee.2761 said:

    @LolLookAtMyAP.8394 said:
    Honestly just add a cast time to ALL facets, passive skills and active skills including heal

    All facets have cast time except facet of darkness which is the stunbreak so it's normal that it doesn't have a cast time

    Except Facet of Darkness obviously. For all other facets add cast time. The passive skills for all facets except heal and elite do not have cast times. You can pop facets all at once for significant DPS increase in an instant. It's too easy for Herald to upkeep.

    The heal active should have a cast time as well.

  • Trevor Boyer.6524Trevor Boyer.6524 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 14, 2019

    @Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

    @Snellibee.2761 said:
    The whole idea of revenant is to be able to chase their enemy. That's their role just like thief can chase you forever. Also why do you expect to be able to run away if you're out of cooldowns? You shouldn't be able to survive if you manage your CD's bad and are in a vulnerable spot. That's your fault.

    Nobody said they were out of cooldowns. Trevor said that. I am not of that opinion. You can still be magneted to even if you have disengage cooldowns via phase traversal and unrelenting.
    Also, is it really their role? I thought they were group support. Thats what the majority of their kit seems to be built around.

    Not that I feel they need to be shoehorned into that, but chase potential is only present in one of their traits and weapon types. All of the other traitlines focus on pushing benefits to allies.

    There is a difference between being able to chase something like a Thief does and literally riding someone's kitten like you're glued to it, in the way Herald does. When a Thief chases you, it deals some damage yes, but there are risks involved for the Thief while doing this. We all know that things can go south for a Thief pretty quickly if he takes a couple of bad hits. The Thief actually has to play well, to chase and secure kills. The Thief also has to actually use WASD to stay on someone, which offers counter play for someone who is peeling, to also use WASD to help juke the Thief. A Herald on the other hand, due to the virtue of its enormous damage per second, rapid teleport attacks which are mostly evades, and healing when getting hit, delivers way too much aggression for chasing and forces players into an almost guaranteed "bullied into death" situation.

    What are the best words to use to explain this.. probably a simple example:

    • You get targeted in a mid fight and use your heal skill, you're still only at 70% health after using the heal skill.
    • A good Herald sees you've used your heal skill and it is fresh on CD and that you're already at 70% health.
    • The Herald can reliably judge how long it will take to kill you with pressure because his chasing allows him to stay glued to you, even when you're trying to peel & disengage. In other words, he isn't going in with a hit or miss burst gamble in the way that a Soulbeast does. No, the Herald actually has high damage per second, so he knows if he stays glued to you, you're going to get hit, you're going to keep getting hit, and it's going to deal a lot of damage regardless of which attacks are landing.
    • The Herald knows that if he pressures in at you right now, when your heal is fresh on CD and you're at 70% health, that due to his evades on attacking and healing when getting hit, that if he just lays down hard unavoidable damage per second and stays glued to you, it won't matter what you do to try and counter play him. Whether you choose to attack him or attempt to defend or a bit of both, it won't be enough to counter his 10s pressure interval of unavoidable damage per second that is glued to you, his healing when getting hit, and his ability to mostly negate all of your counter burst while he evades at you while attacking you.

    ^ Due to the extreme damage per second on Herald, and its ability to stay glued to you so that you cannot avoid him, his method to bully you and force you into a "You tank me while I tank you situation" is too strong. There is no other class/build that can do this. Other classes/builds can be juked or played around, while waiting for CDs to refresh so you can eventually engage it properly or recover in some way. Seriously, even a Thief can be disengaged or juked long enough to recover from its assault, but not Herald. Nothing in the game can realistically escape a Herald unless the Herald fumbles hard or there is player assistance to help with the peel or it has an inordinate amount of stealth, and in that case Herald has reveal.

    This effect I've mentioned is what the good Heralds are doing, which is why it feels oppressive. They don't show up to a side node to 1v1 something at full resources, no. They hover around 2v2s and team fights, and they target that guy who is a bit low on resources, and they know that the unavoidable pressure will put him down in 10s or less, so long as the Herald is going in with full resources and/or has team support on him.

    Again, it is my opinion that this is too oppressive in small skirmish such as conquest. It either needs less frequent targeted teleportations, or a shave to its damage output, one of the two. The nature of its "Overpoweredness" isn't really so much statistical as much as it technically, in terms of what it is doing to disturb the classic job roles within conquest. The Herald's +ing power is waaaaay overloaded right now. It's every bit as toxic & exploitive as having one class that is too strong of bunker such as Druid in HoT. Back then a Druid could 1v3 and that kitten was just not healthy for the game. Or a team fighter that was just too strong, such as Scourge on the initial release of PoF. Walking onto a node with the first patching of Scourge, was like walking into a nuclear reactor while it was experiencing a meltdown. It was just overloaded with everything offensive, including a massive amount of boons into condis conversion. Until it was patched, there was no reason to use anything for team fight other than Scourge. Again, that's just not healthy for the game. Herald is headed in a similar direction. It's ability to + and guarantee secured kills is greatly transcendent to anything else we've seen that performs the same job role. It's obnoxious, it's changing the way the game is played in a bad way, and it is indeed overpowered when a person is playing it correctly.

    But I do have to say, bad Heralds are just bad though. This is like the inversion of the Soulbeast problem. The Soulbeast overperforms in mid range tiers but its lacking at high tiers. The Herald underperforms at mid tiers, but is overperforming at high tiers, when there is proper team play.

  • Maddog.3716Maddog.3716 Member ✭✭
    edited June 14, 2019

    @Snellibee.2761 said:

    @Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @Miyu.8137 said:
    All these topics about nerfing "InsertRandomClass" won't help anything. Can you not be more specific? What exactly do you find OP? What skill? What trait? What utility? When we know, we can actually discuss the problematic parts and evantually propose solution.

    At first, you'd think it's the damage output. But it isn't actually the damage that's the problem, it's the chase potential. You seriously cannot escape a Herald that wants you dead. Between Unrelenting Assault and Phase Traversal, it's too much chase power. If it engages you when you are already low on resources, there is no way to counter play the mixture of its chase potential paired with its very consistent high damage output. Unlike a Soulbeast, who has his kill burst in short intervals that go on significant CDs, the Herald actually has high "Damage Per Second", even with random spam attacks, that ultimately cannot be avoided.

    Preferably Arenanet needs to configure something so that heralds are easier to disengage. If they don't want to do that, they should lower the damage output.

    I think this is reasonable. An energy cost bump to phase traversal might be a good place to start, and if that isn't enough have unrelenting check its range after every hit so that you cant magnet to people that blink/port far away.

    I say that tentatively though. Getting harassed at range by bomb-and-disengage condi builds or projectiles ain't a good feel, and they dont have as much block potential as guards. Gonna need to buff their active defenses if you want them to not stick to you the moment they see you.

    So either nerf damage or nerf chase/buff defense. And depending on when they land from there, condi cleanse or a significant buff to resistance on mallyx to make people consider corruption line.

    The whole idea of revenant is to be able to chase their enemy. That's their role just like thief can chase you forever. Also why do you expect to be able to run away if you're out of cooldowns? You shouldn't be able to survive if you manage your CD's bad and are in a vulnerable spot. That's your fault.
    Turning down mobility and increasing defense will literally make revenant a warrior 2.0.
    Phase Traversal already is 35 energy, it doesn't need any higher energy requirements at all because you can already barely cast any other skill after using Phase Traversal.

    People need to understand that it's actually more worth to duel the Revenant than to try and run away. Revenants aren't particulary good in 1v1's unless the user is very skilled. If that's the case you're just getting outplayed so you have to deal with that.

    The only overtuned skill on Revenant is sword 5. A 20% damage nerf is all that it needs.

    PS: Kiting on non port spots basically nullifies a Revenant so begin with doing that.

    Class in heavy armor is better to be warrior 2.0 with mist animation than thief 2.0. Understand one thing that meta shiro took the potential development of a thief in all elite specializations. As long as there is such an approach to Rev, the thief will suffer.
    Thematic role is missing: boon spam +1. What the hell is that?
    It was necessary to put legendary shiro stance on a level with other legends and watch what is missing the rest of the legends.
    P. S. I understand you spent time on the study of meta shiro and as kill playing in this build. So you don't want to lose this opportunity but there will be no development without changes.

  • Snellibee.2761Snellibee.2761 Member ✭✭✭

    @LolLookAtMyAP.8394 said:

    @Snellibee.2761 said:

    @LolLookAtMyAP.8394 said:
    Honestly just add a cast time to ALL facets, passive skills and active skills including heal

    All facets have cast time except facet of darkness which is the stunbreak so it's normal that it doesn't have a cast time

    Except Facet of Darkness obviously. For all other facets add cast time. The passive skills for all facets except heal and elite do not have cast times. You can pop facets all at once for significant DPS increase in an instant. It's too easy for Herald to upkeep.

    The heal active should have a cast time as well.

    It's too easy to upkeep? You can't even keep all facets active at once, keeping your three utility facets up will result in you not gaining any energy to keep using your weapon skills with. Imagine giving facets a cast time to activate, so now you have to go through two cast times if you want to activate Elemental Blast and Burst of Strength.

    Sorry dude but facets do not need a change at all

  • Snellibee.2761Snellibee.2761 Member ✭✭✭

    @Maddog.3716 said:

    @Snellibee.2761 said:

    @Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @Miyu.8137 said:
    All these topics about nerfing "InsertRandomClass" won't help anything. Can you not be more specific? What exactly do you find OP? What skill? What trait? What utility? When we know, we can actually discuss the problematic parts and evantually propose solution.

    At first, you'd think it's the damage output. But it isn't actually the damage that's the problem, it's the chase potential. You seriously cannot escape a Herald that wants you dead. Between Unrelenting Assault and Phase Traversal, it's too much chase power. If it engages you when you are already low on resources, there is no way to counter play the mixture of its chase potential paired with its very consistent high damage output. Unlike a Soulbeast, who has his kill burst in short intervals that go on significant CDs, the Herald actually has high "Damage Per Second", even with random spam attacks, that ultimately cannot be avoided.

    Preferably Arenanet needs to configure something so that heralds are easier to disengage. If they don't want to do that, they should lower the damage output.

    I think this is reasonable. An energy cost bump to phase traversal might be a good place to start, and if that isn't enough have unrelenting check its range after every hit so that you cant magnet to people that blink/port far away.

    I say that tentatively though. Getting harassed at range by bomb-and-disengage condi builds or projectiles ain't a good feel, and they dont have as much block potential as guards. Gonna need to buff their active defenses if you want them to not stick to you the moment they see you.

    So either nerf damage or nerf chase/buff defense. And depending on when they land from there, condi cleanse or a significant buff to resistance on mallyx to make people consider corruption line.

    The whole idea of revenant is to be able to chase their enemy. That's their role just like thief can chase you forever. Also why do you expect to be able to run away if you're out of cooldowns? You shouldn't be able to survive if you manage your CD's bad and are in a vulnerable spot. That's your fault.
    Turning down mobility and increasing defense will literally make revenant a warrior 2.0.
    Phase Traversal already is 35 energy, it doesn't need any higher energy requirements at all because you can already barely cast any other skill after using Phase Traversal.

    People need to understand that it's actually more worth to duel the Revenant than to try and run away. Revenants aren't particulary good in 1v1's unless the user is very skilled. If that's the case you're just getting outplayed so you have to deal with that.

    The only overtuned skill on Revenant is sword 5. A 20% damage nerf is all that it needs.

    PS: Kiting on non port spots basically nullifies a Revenant so begin with doing that.

    Class in heavy armor is better to be warrior 2.0 with mist animation than thief 2.0. Understand one thing that meta shiro took the potential development of a thief in all elite specializations. As long as there is such an approach to Rev, the thief will suffer.
    Thematic role is missing: boon spam +1. What the hell is that?
    It was necessary to put legendary shiro stance on a level with other legends and watch what is missing the rest of the legends.
    P. S. I understand you spent time on the study of meta shiro and as kill playing in this build. So you don't want to lose this opportunity but there will be no development without changes.

    Theres a difference between a bunch of low leveled and low skilled people wanting a total revamp of Revenant and the high leveled high skilled players who's only complaints with Revenant are Sword 5 (Deathstrike) doing too much damage and Shiro F2 being able to crit.

    So far most people in this thread have been the first group of people. Just shows the average skilllevel the forums has to offer once again

  • Snellibee.2761Snellibee.2761 Member ✭✭✭

    @bluri.2653 said:

    @AngelLovesFredrik.6741 said:
    Just remove all damage from shiro f2

    this to some extent, remove the scaling of might and make it not being able to crit and im happy

    On the wiki Shiro F2 shouldn't even do damage which is quite interesting that it does in-game.

  • bluri.2653bluri.2653 Member ✭✭✭

    @Snellibee.2761 said:

    @bluri.2653 said:

    @AngelLovesFredrik.6741 said:
    Just remove all damage from shiro f2

    this to some extent, remove the scaling of might and make it not being able to crit and im happy

    On the wiki Shiro F2 shouldn't even do damage which is quite interesting that it does in-game.

    Probably not updated the wiki since its not anet doing it but actual players

    www.twitch.tv/sindrener - Rank 55 Dragons/Orange Logo/Team Aggression

  • Maddog.3716Maddog.3716 Member ✭✭
    edited June 14, 2019

    @Snellibee.2761 said:

    @Maddog.3716 said:

    @Snellibee.2761 said:

    @Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @Miyu.8137 said:
    All these topics about nerfing "InsertRandomClass" won't help anything. Can you not be more specific? What exactly do you find OP? What skill? What trait? What utility? When we know, we can actually discuss the problematic parts and evantually propose solution.

    At first, you'd think it's the damage output. But it isn't actually the damage that's the problem, it's the chase potential. You seriously cannot escape a Herald that wants you dead. Between Unrelenting Assault and Phase Traversal, it's too much chase power. If it engages you when you are already low on resources, there is no way to counter play the mixture of its chase potential paired with its very consistent high damage output. Unlike a Soulbeast, who has his kill burst in short intervals that go on significant CDs, the Herald actually has high "Damage Per Second", even with random spam attacks, that ultimately cannot be avoided.

    Preferably Arenanet needs to configure something so that heralds are easier to disengage. If they don't want to do that, they should lower the damage output.

    I think this is reasonable. An energy cost bump to phase traversal might be a good place to start, and if that isn't enough have unrelenting check its range after every hit so that you cant magnet to people that blink/port far away.

    I say that tentatively though. Getting harassed at range by bomb-and-disengage condi builds or projectiles ain't a good feel, and they dont have as much block potential as guards. Gonna need to buff their active defenses if you want them to not stick to you the moment they see you.

    So either nerf damage or nerf chase/buff defense. And depending on when they land from there, condi cleanse or a significant buff to resistance on mallyx to make people consider corruption line.

    The whole idea of revenant is to be able to chase their enemy. That's their role just like thief can chase you forever. Also why do you expect to be able to run away if you're out of cooldowns? You shouldn't be able to survive if you manage your CD's bad and are in a vulnerable spot. That's your fault.
    Turning down mobility and increasing defense will literally make revenant a warrior 2.0.
    Phase Traversal already is 35 energy, it doesn't need any higher energy requirements at all because you can already barely cast any other skill after using Phase Traversal.

    People need to understand that it's actually more worth to duel the Revenant than to try and run away. Revenants aren't particulary good in 1v1's unless the user is very skilled. If that's the case you're just getting outplayed so you have to deal with that.

    The only overtuned skill on Revenant is sword 5. A 20% damage nerf is all that it needs.

    PS: Kiting on non port spots basically nullifies a Revenant so begin with doing that.

    Class in heavy armor is better to be warrior 2.0 with mist animation than thief 2.0. Understand one thing that meta shiro took the potential development of a thief in all elite specializations. As long as there is such an approach to Rev, the thief will suffer.
    Thematic role is missing: boon spam +1. What the hell is that?
    It was necessary to put legendary shiro stance on a level with other legends and watch what is missing the rest of the legends.
    P. S. I understand you spent time on the study of meta shiro and as kill playing in this build. So you don't want to lose this opportunity but there will be no development without changes.

    Theres a difference between a bunch of low leveled and low skilled people wanting a total revamp of Revenant and the high leveled high skilled players who's only complaints with Revenant are Sword 5 (Deathstrike) doing too much damage and Shiro F2 being able to crit.

    So far most people in this thread have been the first group of people. Just shows the average skilllevel the forums has to offer once again

    Maybe everything can be.

  • @Snellibee.2761 said:

    @bluri.2653 said:

    @AngelLovesFredrik.6741 said:
    Just remove all damage from shiro f2

    this to some extent, remove the scaling of might and make it not being able to crit and im happy

    On the wiki Shiro F2 shouldn't even do damage which is quite interesting that it does in-game.

    Hits for between 3-3.5k. rips two boons and is unblockable.

    ~ God Tier Guardian

  • I can only say what is obvious and unrelated to a specific game mode :
    1.) The hammer is in competition to all the other long range classes like ele and ranger while revenant shouldn't be a long range class by game logic because of his heavy armor.
    2.) The herold glint legend has the easiest access to boons no boon duration extension required aka full berserker with schooler rune which is absolute broken.
    3.) Revenant isn't a great DPS class

    So what I would do is properly reduce the ranger of the hammer , reduce the duration of the boons around 20% so that you need at least 2-3 diviner pieces.
    I would also nerf the hammer in terms of dmg and then buff the whole base class a bit so +/- = 0

    I would also point out a deeper problem(which this is part of) which Arena.NET caused the last 9 month which I call 'heavy metal meta' which became dominant in all game modes. I want to say beforehand the ultimate consequence of all this is that Arena.NET took away the whole high risk high reward gameplay in GW2 or the risk is so high that nobody wants to play it.(like swordweaver).

    Meta per game mode :

    Fraktals/Raids : FB, Renegade, 2 DH, Warrior with flags / all in heavy armour :/
    WvW : FB , Herold, 2X Scourge, Warrior or Engi / a lot in heavy armour with a few exceptions :/
    PvP : FB, 2x Scourge, Warrior or DH or Herold or Engi , Mirage or Thief or Swordweaver or Ranger / a lot better better but still a domination of heavy armour

    I think people start to understand what I mean with 'heavy metal meta'. The reason for me is that Arena.NET continued this year to nerf Druid and Chrono also the nerf an Ele went to far, DH became to strong , Thief miss survivability and Ranger lakes a spot in wvw zerk and a bit of dmg as Souldbeast in PvE also Warrior is with axe, axe too aoeish

  • Sampson.2403Sampson.2403 Member ✭✭✭

    How would removing shiro f2s damage (or ability to crit) change anything? Like out of all things to complain about with Rev, THAT is what some people want to remove? Im missing something because the people in this thread asking for that are good players.

  • Stand The Wall.6987Stand The Wall.6987 Member ✭✭✭✭

    revs have tons of quickness too. for some reason someone thought that was a good idea.

    you don't know till you know, ya know.

  • Pterikdactyl.7630Pterikdactyl.7630 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Things that I think are fair targets for nerfs (not all together):

    -Elemental Blast damage (I always saw this as Glint's condi damage skill, but it works better on power builds. Would like the burning application to be easier to achieve as currently they have to get hit by the last tick)
    -Burst of Strength damage modifier
    -Shiro True Nature damage (not being able to crit would be fair IMO. Perhaps give it a different functionality besides damage? I strongly disagree with increasing the CD or decreasing the radius as it it an important skill to other Herald builds)
    -Phase Traversal damage modifier (10% isn't much, but really it is a bit unnecessary. The skill already offers enough without it.)
    -Sword 5 damage (the port, slow, and chill application are already powerful and offer a lot of utility, the damage is too much with everything else it offers)
    -Sword 4 being reverted in functionality to a block + flipover (core Rev and Renegade currently have no access to a defensive offhand weapon and axe/sword overlap in functionality)

    Healing orbs are a mistake. Please delete them ANet.

  • mortrialus.3062mortrialus.3062 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Pterikdactyl.7630 said:
    Things that I think are fair targets for nerfs (not all together):

    -Elemental Blast damage (I always saw this as Glint's condi damage skill, but it works better on power builds. Would like the burning application to be easier to achieve as currently they have to get hit by the last tick)

    From a purely selfish perspective, Elemental Blast has aaaaaalways genuinely upset me.

    As someone frequently sidenodes who often needs to utilize No Port spots when handling Thieves and Revs rotating in to +1 Elemental Blast being able to do potentially 50% of my max health at range after I've done a jumping puzzle the rev has completely failed at is obnoxious. And I'm not the only one who thinks so.

    The Psychomancer: Mesmer Elite Specialization Suggestion

  • @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Pterikdactyl.7630 said:
    Things that I think are fair targets for nerfs (not all together):

    -Elemental Blast damage (I always saw this as Glint's condi damage skill, but it works better on power builds. Would like the burning application to be easier to achieve as currently they have to get hit by the last tick)

    From a purely selfish perspective, Elemental Blast has aaaaaalways genuinely upset me.

    As someone frequently sidenodes who often needs to utilize No Port spots when handling Thieves and Revs rotating in to +1 Elemental Blast being able to do potentially 50% of my max health at range after I've done a jumping puzzle the rev has completely failed at is obnoxious. And I'm not the only one who thinks so.

    It's only like 10k dmg so it's fine.

    ~ God Tier Guardian

  • Maddog.3716Maddog.3716 Member ✭✭
    edited June 14, 2019

    @Snellibee.2761 said:

    @Maddog.3716 said:

    @Snellibee.2761 said:

    @Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @Miyu.8137 said:
    All these topics about nerfing "InsertRandomClass" won't help anything. Can you not be more specific? What exactly do you find OP? What skill? What trait? What utility? When we know, we can actually discuss the problematic parts and evantually propose solution.

    At first, you'd think it's the damage output. But it isn't actually the damage that's the problem, it's the chase potential. You seriously cannot escape a Herald that wants you dead. Between Unrelenting Assault and Phase Traversal, it's too much chase power. If it engages you when you are already low on resources, there is no way to counter play the mixture of its chase potential paired with its very consistent high damage output. Unlike a Soulbeast, who has his kill burst in short intervals that go on significant CDs, the Herald actually has high "Damage Per Second", even with random spam attacks, that ultimately cannot be avoided.

    Preferably Arenanet needs to configure something so that heralds are easier to disengage. If they don't want to do that, they should lower the damage output.

    I think this is reasonable. An energy cost bump to phase traversal might be a good place to start, and if that isn't enough have unrelenting check its range after every hit so that you cant magnet to people that blink/port far away.

    I say that tentatively though. Getting harassed at range by bomb-and-disengage condi builds or projectiles ain't a good feel, and they dont have as much block potential as guards. Gonna need to buff their active defenses if you want them to not stick to you the moment they see you.

    So either nerf damage or nerf chase/buff defense. And depending on when they land from there, condi cleanse or a significant buff to resistance on mallyx to make people consider corruption line.

    The whole idea of revenant is to be able to chase their enemy. That's their role just like thief can chase you forever. Also why do you expect to be able to run away if you're out of cooldowns? You shouldn't be able to survive if you manage your CD's bad and are in a vulnerable spot. That's your fault.
    Turning down mobility and increasing defense will literally make revenant a warrior 2.0.
    Phase Traversal already is 35 energy, it doesn't need any higher energy requirements at all because you can already barely cast any other skill after using Phase Traversal.

    People need to understand that it's actually more worth to duel the Revenant than to try and run away. Revenants aren't particulary good in 1v1's unless the user is very skilled. If that's the case you're just getting outplayed so you have to deal with that.

    The only overtuned skill on Revenant is sword 5. A 20% damage nerf is all that it needs.

    PS: Kiting on non port spots basically nullifies a Revenant so begin with doing that.

    Class in heavy armor is better to be warrior 2.0 with mist animation than thief 2.0. Understand one thing that meta shiro took the potential development of a thief in all elite specializations. As long as there is such an approach to Rev, the thief will suffer.
    Thematic role is missing: boon spam +1. What the hell is that?
    It was necessary to put legendary shiro stance on a level with other legends and watch what is missing the rest of the legends.
    P. S. I understand you spent time on the study of meta shiro and as kill playing in this build. So you don't want to lose this opportunity but there will be no development without changes.

    Theres a difference between a bunch of low leveled and low skilled people wanting a total revamp of Revenant and the high leveled high skilled players who's only complaints with Revenant are Sword 5 (Deathstrike) doing too much damage and Shiro F2 being able to crit.

    So far most people in this thread have been the first group of people. Just shows the average skilllevel the forums has to offer once again

    You talk strangely about qualifications and about people. Probably you consider yourself a high level skill player. I have the feeling that you have created meta shiro build. Although likely there is no, another you even not tried.

  • Rev is very broken and actually has been the most powercreeped/broken spec for about 3 seasons now. Here is some constructive ways to nerf it:
    1. Shiro f2 dmg should be lowered considerably(more as a reveal than something that hurts) and the radius should be more melee(240-300) not 600. Reasoning: Currently rev does too much, it assumes a more necro-like role when it can legit strip everyone in the team fight for 3 boons(traited) and do considerable damage that has no tells and is hard to dodge. I think rev needs to compete with thief, and the way thief boon rips is more single target focused rev should be the same.
    2. Deathstrike is probably the biggest offender of rev being as overtuned as it is now. I think this skill is designed well and has counterplay because it is a 2 step skill. With that being said it does a little too much. Rev like thief is a roamer so it needs to be able to chase and kill with ease esp low targets. Deathstrike gives you fury, then chills and slows the enemy, is a 600range instant port and can hit for 5-7k easily. I think the damage on this skill needs to be non critable and something very minor, but everything else should stay the same. Deathstrike needs to serve as a setup to burst, not be the setup AND burst all in one its just too much. Revs should think about what they do after landing it not having a massive advantage after. The equivalent to this on thief would be if thief sword 2 ported to you, immobilized you, and then hit you for 5-7k it would be a little ridiculous so make it similar to that. Chill + slow is a massive advantage as is and the rev needs to combo it with something else for the kill.
    3. Might stacking. I'm completely fine with rev being able to build up 25 might but I think this needs to be more of a process/combo rather than something given for granted. I main necro and one of the biggest things I do to counter a rev is make sure I strip their might the moment it gets a little too high but that doesnt stop them from easily rebuilding back upto 25. Limiting certain might traits or making them an active part of your play rather than passive would promote more skillful play, punish you for tanking rips, and classes that can boon rip will have a larger window to do counterpressure as opposed to now when u can rip their might, they legend swap cleanse and its right back up. There are several might traits on rev and limiting afew of them could easily make that happen.

    With that being said I do believe that no matter how anet deals with rev it should still easily do more spike than thief as a roamer. Its sustain compared to thief is considerably lower and over nerfing it to be on par or even lower than thief will remove it from the meta. Rev is a healthy spec when balanced correctly and rev vs thief should be more of a counter comp pick / playstyle change rather than an upgrade v downgrade.

  • Buran.3796Buran.3796 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Paradoxoglanis.1904 said:
    The problem isnt that revs have ridiculous damage, many builds like spb or holo have similar ttk if they land their burst on you. The problem with rev is that their entire skill loadout is overstacked with very strong abilities.

    They have some of the best mobility and chasing/focusing potential with:
    phase traversal, 5s cooldown 1200 range
    deathstrike, 15s cooldown 600 range
    superspeed, near permanent in assassin, 45s cooldown in glint

    They have many very strong, short cooldown damage skills usable at mid-range:
    sword 2, 3, 4 have 450 range.
    elemental blast has 600 range, burst of strength 300
    surge of the mists - deals less damage from 0 up to 600 range (also a cc)

    They have multiple very strong defensive skills:
    3 evades, 1 being a cc, 1 a stun break&evade, one does damage and follows targets (through teleports even).
    3s instant cast (yes you have to activate the facet first) damage invuln that can heal them to full on a 30s cooldown, all the while they can continue to pressure and do damage.
    2s channeled block/blind on a 15s cooldown.
    4 stun breaks, 2 can be used every 10 seconds. One is an evade as well, one is also a blind, reveal, and applies 10 vuln stacks.

    And on top of all that, they have a second heal, aoe unblockable boon rip, self perma fury, high might stacks, swiftness, quickness for their tp burst, and can output high vulnerability stacks during their burst.

    No class should have such an amazing skill kit.

    This post is so biased and lacking of fundations that crumbles under its own weight:

    • You don't mention all the energy that must be paid on top of the cooldown times in order to use ANY Rev skill outside auto attacks. You need 35 units for a single use of Phase Traversal, and 80 units to keep Impossible Odds for 10 seconds. Glint gives you 5 seconds of superspeed each 45 seconds, which is far from being impressive.
    • You need energy to perform the most basic things, as using the healings or the stunbreaks; if a Rev mindlessly depletes its energy in burst loses all that "amazing" mobility and defenses , doesn't matter if their skills are available or in cooldowns.
    • Power Herald has exactly 0 access to stability, has 0 passive defenses and is utterly mediocre at enduring/cleansing conditions.
    • Power Herald has 2 HALF heals: one is really weak (Enchanted Daggers) and the viability of the other one (Infuse Light) relies entirely in how bad is the enemy player (you will heal a lot only if your enemy insists in bursting you after the unmistakable activation sound).
    • Rev lost most of their vuln proc sources over 2018, to the extent that some of them (as Burst of Strenght) have now barely any use.
    • Your statement about Rev having 4 breakstuns every 10 seconds is utterly false and entirely dishonest. Gaze of Darkness has a 20 seconds cooldown, your theory just jumped out for the window, plus Riposting Shadows has a upfront cost of 30 energy unit; not only Revs can't break stuns 4 times each 10 seconds but is also highly unlikely for a Rev to be able to burst 4 breakstuns in a single 10 seconds frame (and if does is doing no damage, spending all resources avoinding damage, and won't be able to do the same in the next legend swap).
  • Crab Fear.1624Crab Fear.1624 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Buran.3796 said:

    @Paradoxoglanis.1904 said:
    The problem isnt that revs have ridiculous damage, many builds like spb or holo have similar ttk if they land their burst on you. The problem with rev is that their entire skill loadout is overstacked with very strong abilities.

    They have some of the best mobility and chasing/focusing potential with:
    phase traversal, 5s cooldown 1200 range
    deathstrike, 15s cooldown 600 range
    superspeed, near permanent in assassin, 45s cooldown in glint

    They have many very strong, short cooldown damage skills usable at mid-range:
    sword 2, 3, 4 have 450 range.
    elemental blast has 600 range, burst of strength 300
    surge of the mists - deals less damage from 0 up to 600 range (also a cc)

    They have multiple very strong defensive skills:
    3 evades, 1 being a cc, 1 a stun break&evade, one does damage and follows targets (through teleports even).
    3s instant cast (yes you have to activate the facet first) damage invuln that can heal them to full on a 30s cooldown, all the while they can continue to pressure and do damage.
    2s channeled block/blind on a 15s cooldown.
    4 stun breaks, 2 can be used every 10 seconds. One is an evade as well, one is also a blind, reveal, and applies 10 vuln stacks.

    And on top of all that, they have a second heal, aoe unblockable boon rip, self perma fury, high might stacks, swiftness, quickness for their tp burst, and can output high vulnerability stacks during their burst.

    No class should have such an amazing skill kit.

    This post is so biased and lacking of fundations that crumbles under its own weight:

    • You don't mention all the energy that must be paid on top of the cooldown times in order to use ANY Rev skill outside auto attacks. You need 35 units for a single use of Phase Traversal, and 80 units to keep Impossible Odds for 10 seconds. Glint gives you 5 seconds of superspeed each 45 seconds, which is far from being impressive.
    • You need energy to perform the most basic things, as using the healings or the stunbreaks; if a Rev mindlessly depletes its energy in burst loses all that "amazing" mobility and defenses , doesn't matter if their skills are available or in cooldowns.
    • Power Herald has exactly 0 access to stability, has 0 passive defenses and is utterly mediocre at enduring/cleansing conditions.
    • Power Herald has 2 HALF heals: one is really weak (Enchanted Daggers) and the viability of the other one (Infuse Light) relies entirely in how bad is the enemy player (you will heal a lot only if your enemy insists in bursting you after the unmistakable activation sound).
    • Rev lost most of their vuln proc sources over 2018, to the extent that some of them (as Burst of Strenght) have now barely any use.
    • Your statement about Rev having 4 breakstuns every 10 seconds is utterly false and entirely dishonest. Gaze of Darkness has a 20 seconds cooldown, your theory just jumped out for the window, plus Riposting Shadows has a upfront cost of 30 energy unit; not only Revs can't break stuns 4 times each 10 seconds but is also highly unlikely for a Rev to be able to burst 4 breakstuns in a single 10 seconds frame (and if does is doing no damage, spending all resources avoinding damage, and won't be able to do the same in the next legend swap).

    It says 2 every 10 seconds for the stunbreaks...which is UTTERLY true

    Soon™ ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

  • torben.1532torben.1532 Member ✭✭
    edited June 15, 2019

    So far the only constructive thing i‘ve Seen here is naru‘s post

  • Crab Fear.1624Crab Fear.1624 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @torben.1532 said:
    So far the only constructive thing i‘ve Seen here is naru‘s post

    We don't want to construct. The post is about the destruct...ion of herald's dominance

    Soon™ ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

  • Paradoxoglanis.1904Paradoxoglanis.1904 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 15, 2019

    @Buran.3796 said:
    This post is so biased and lacking of fundations that crumbles under its own weight:

    • You don't mention all the energy that must be paid on top of the cooldown times in order to use ANY Rev skill outside auto attacks. You need 35 units for a single use of Phase Traversal, and 80 units to keep Impossible Odds for 10 seconds. Glint gives you 5 seconds of superspeed each 45 seconds, which is far from being impressive.
    • You need energy to perform the most basic things, as using the healings or the stunbreaks; if a Rev mindlessly depletes its energy in burst loses all that "amazing" mobility and defenses , doesn't matter if their skills are available or in cooldowns.
    • Power Herald has exactly 0 access to stability, has 0 passive defenses and is utterly mediocre at enduring/cleansing conditions.
    • Power Herald has 2 HALF heals: one is really weak (Enchanted Daggers) and the viability of the other one (Infuse Light) relies entirely in how bad is the enemy player (you will heal a lot only if your enemy insists in bursting you after the unmistakable activation sound).
    • Rev lost most of their vuln proc sources over 2018, to the extent that some of them (as Burst of Strenght) have now barely any use.
    • Your statement about Rev having 4 breakstuns every 10 seconds is utterly false and entirely dishonest. Gaze of Darkness has a 20 seconds cooldown, your theory just jumped out for the window, plus Riposting Shadows has a upfront cost of 30 energy unit; not only Revs can't break stuns 4 times each 10 seconds but is also highly unlikely for a Rev to be able to burst 4 breakstuns in a single 10 seconds frame (and if does is doing no damage, spending all resources avoinding damage, and won't be able to do the same in the next legend swap).

    Yes, i am well aware that rev skills use energy. Any good rev player should know how to manage energy properly. If you avoid spamming skills when they arent needed revs will nearly always have enough to use whatever skill they need at that moment.

    I am also very aware at how weak rev is vs condi. However since the meta is mostly power builds, that doesnt hurt them nearly as much anymore, they can also take runes such as leadership to significantly help their cleansing ability. They also make up for not having stab by having all their other defensives and stun breaks (check again i said 2 every 10 seconds not 4).

    A heal skill is either a heal skill, or not one at all. just because assassins heal doesnt restore an immediate chunk of hp, does not mean it is a "half skill". It still heals, up to 6k, and does up to 5k free damage. Glints heal can easily be activated when an enemy is in mid animation of attacking, or you can use it and stand in aoe. Just because it can be used at a bad time doesnt make it a "half heal".

    Just because rev lost some vuln application, doesnt mean they lost it all. They get 5 stacks upon entering combat, gaze of darkness applies 10, shackling wave applies 8, and sword autos apply 1-2 more.

    Thank you for your constructive and completely unbiased response.

  • Maddog.3716Maddog.3716 Member ✭✭
    edited June 15, 2019

    @torben.1532 said:
    So far the only constructive thing i‘ve Seen here is naru‘s post

    Unlikely. These theoretical analyses poke a finger at the sky.
    If will nerf/buff anet will do it its own way and it will be completely different from the ideas suggested here.
    P. S. Any departure from Meta even hybrid condi is better to use shiro(Lmao). It is worth considering why.
    As the man above wrote about mirage this also applies to meta shiro. Meta shiro holding back other features Rev

  • Master Ketsu.4569Master Ketsu.4569 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @NotoriousNaru.1705 said:
    Rev is very broken and actually has been the most powercreeped/broken spec for about 3 seasons now. Here is some constructive ways to nerf it:
    1. Shiro f2 dmg should be lowered considerably(more as a reveal than something that hurts) and the radius should be more melee(240-300) not 600. Reasoning: Currently rev does too much, it assumes a more necro-like role when it can legit strip everyone in the team fight for 3 boons(traited) and do considerable damage that has no tells and is hard to dodge. I think rev needs to compete with thief, and the way thief boon rips is more single target focused rev should be the same.
    2. Deathstrike is probably the biggest offender of rev being as overtuned as it is now. I think this skill is designed well and has counterplay because it is a 2 step skill. With that being said it does a little too much. Rev like thief is a roamer so it needs to be able to chase and kill with ease esp low targets. Deathstrike gives you fury, then chills and slows the enemy, is a 600range instant port and can hit for 5-7k easily. I think the damage on this skill needs to be non critable and something very minor, but everything else should stay the same. Deathstrike needs to serve as a setup to burst, not be the setup AND burst all in one its just too much. Revs should think about what they do after landing it not having a massive advantage after. The equivalent to this on thief would be if thief sword 2 ported to you, immobilized you, and then hit you for 5-7k it would be a little ridiculous so make it similar to that. Chill + slow is a massive advantage as is and the rev needs to combo it with something else for the kill.
    3. Might stacking. I'm completely fine with rev being able to build up 25 might but I think this needs to be more of a process/combo rather than something given for granted. I main necro and one of the biggest things I do to counter a rev is make sure I strip their might the moment it gets a little too high but that doesnt stop them from easily rebuilding back upto 25. Limiting certain might traits or making them an active part of your play rather than passive would promote more skillful play, punish you for tanking rips, and classes that can boon rip will have a larger window to do counterpressure as opposed to now when u can rip their might, they legend swap cleanse and its right back up. There are several might traits on rev and limiting afew of them could easily make that happen.

    This is the closest someone who doesn't play rev as much has come to saying something correct and reasonable. Although you do have God of PvP so that's a bit expected.

    I think it's important to note specifically how the might stacks were powercrept. Plenty of classes can stack 25 might, but it feels worse on rev because notoriety was buffed to give rev an additional 250 power for might stacks which was a 100% unnecessary buff. They could and should just revert that and it might ( no pun intended ) be fine.

  • Snellibee.2761Snellibee.2761 Member ✭✭✭

    @Maddog.3716 said:

    @Snellibee.2761 said:

    @Maddog.3716 said:

    @Snellibee.2761 said:

    @Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @Miyu.8137 said:
    All these topics about nerfing "InsertRandomClass" won't help anything. Can you not be more specific? What exactly do you find OP? What skill? What trait? What utility? When we know, we can actually discuss the problematic parts and evantually propose solution.

    At first, you'd think it's the damage output. But it isn't actually the damage that's the problem, it's the chase potential. You seriously cannot escape a Herald that wants you dead. Between Unrelenting Assault and Phase Traversal, it's too much chase power. If it engages you when you are already low on resources, there is no way to counter play the mixture of its chase potential paired with its very consistent high damage output. Unlike a Soulbeast, who has his kill burst in short intervals that go on significant CDs, the Herald actually has high "Damage Per Second", even with random spam attacks, that ultimately cannot be avoided.

    Preferably Arenanet needs to configure something so that heralds are easier to disengage. If they don't want to do that, they should lower the damage output.

    I think this is reasonable. An energy cost bump to phase traversal might be a good place to start, and if that isn't enough have unrelenting check its range after every hit so that you cant magnet to people that blink/port far away.

    I say that tentatively though. Getting harassed at range by bomb-and-disengage condi builds or projectiles ain't a good feel, and they dont have as much block potential as guards. Gonna need to buff their active defenses if you want them to not stick to you the moment they see you.

    So either nerf damage or nerf chase/buff defense. And depending on when they land from there, condi cleanse or a significant buff to resistance on mallyx to make people consider corruption line.

    The whole idea of revenant is to be able to chase their enemy. That's their role just like thief can chase you forever. Also why do you expect to be able to run away if you're out of cooldowns? You shouldn't be able to survive if you manage your CD's bad and are in a vulnerable spot. That's your fault.
    Turning down mobility and increasing defense will literally make revenant a warrior 2.0.
    Phase Traversal already is 35 energy, it doesn't need any higher energy requirements at all because you can already barely cast any other skill after using Phase Traversal.

    People need to understand that it's actually more worth to duel the Revenant than to try and run away. Revenants aren't particulary good in 1v1's unless the user is very skilled. If that's the case you're just getting outplayed so you have to deal with that.

    The only overtuned skill on Revenant is sword 5. A 20% damage nerf is all that it needs.

    PS: Kiting on non port spots basically nullifies a Revenant so begin with doing that.

    Class in heavy armor is better to be warrior 2.0 with mist animation than thief 2.0. Understand one thing that meta shiro took the potential development of a thief in all elite specializations. As long as there is such an approach to Rev, the thief will suffer.
    Thematic role is missing: boon spam +1. What the hell is that?
    It was necessary to put legendary shiro stance on a level with other legends and watch what is missing the rest of the legends.
    P. S. I understand you spent time on the study of meta shiro and as kill playing in this build. So you don't want to lose this opportunity but there will be no development without changes.

    Theres a difference between a bunch of low leveled and low skilled people wanting a total revamp of Revenant and the high leveled high skilled players who's only complaints with Revenant are Sword 5 (Deathstrike) doing too much damage and Shiro F2 being able to crit.

    So far most people in this thread have been the first group of people. Just shows the average skilllevel the forums has to offer once again

    You talk strangely about qualifications and about people. Probably you consider yourself a high level skill player. I have the feeling that you have created meta shiro build. Although likely there is no, another you even not tried.

    I based my post on people who are high skilled and on my own experience as a Revenant. I do not claim to be high skilled but therefor it does not mean I cannot state what other high skilled players think about the class. My statements with the experience as a Revenant player are also more worth and valuable than the statements made by people who have never played said class but are making suggestions about it.

  • Snellibee.2761Snellibee.2761 Member ✭✭✭

    @NotoriousNaru.1705 said:
    Rev is very broken and actually has been the most powercreeped/broken spec for about 3 seasons now. Here is some constructive ways to nerf it:
    1. Shiro f2 dmg should be lowered considerably(more as a reveal than something that hurts) and the radius should be more melee(240-300) not 600. Reasoning: Currently rev does too much, it assumes a more necro-like role when it can legit strip everyone in the team fight for 3 boons(traited) and do considerable damage that has no tells and is hard to dodge. I think rev needs to compete with thief, and the way thief boon rips is more single target focused rev should be the same.
    2. Deathstrike is probably the biggest offender of rev being as overtuned as it is now. I think this skill is designed well and has counterplay because it is a 2 step skill. With that being said it does a little too much. Rev like thief is a roamer so it needs to be able to chase and kill with ease esp low targets. Deathstrike gives you fury, then chills and slows the enemy, is a 600range instant port and can hit for 5-7k easily. I think the damage on this skill needs to be non critable and something very minor, but everything else should stay the same. Deathstrike needs to serve as a setup to burst, not be the setup AND burst all in one its just too much. Revs should think about what they do after landing it not having a massive advantage after. The equivalent to this on thief would be if thief sword 2 ported to you, immobilized you, and then hit you for 5-7k it would be a little ridiculous so make it similar to that. Chill + slow is a massive advantage as is and the rev needs to combo it with something else for the kill.
    3. Might stacking. I'm completely fine with rev being able to build up 25 might but I think this needs to be more of a process/combo rather than something given for granted. I main necro and one of the biggest things I do to counter a rev is make sure I strip their might the moment it gets a little too high but that doesnt stop them from easily rebuilding back upto 25. Limiting certain might traits or making them an active part of your play rather than passive would promote more skillful play, punish you for tanking rips, and classes that can boon rip will have a larger window to do counterpressure as opposed to now when u can rip their might, they legend swap cleanse and its right back up. There are several might traits on rev and limiting afew of them could easily make that happen.

    With that being said I do believe that no matter how anet deals with rev it should still easily do more spike than thief as a roamer. Its sustain compared to thief is considerably lower and over nerfing it to be on par or even lower than thief will remove it from the meta. Rev is a healthy spec when balanced correctly and rev vs thief should be more of a counter comp pick / playstyle change rather than an upgrade v downgrade.

    There's nothing more to add or take from this post. Everything stated is justified and legit adjusments were suggested.

    This thread can be closed now

  • Snellibee.2761Snellibee.2761 Member ✭✭✭

    @Maddog.3716 said:

    @torben.1532 said:
    So far the only constructive thing i‘ve Seen here is naru‘s post

    Unlikely. These theoretical analyses poke a finger at the sky.
    If will nerf/buff anet will do it its own way and it will be completely different from the ideas suggested here.
    P. S. Any departure from Meta even hybrid condi is better to use shiro(Lmao). It is worth considering why.
    As the man above wrote about mirage this also applies to meta shiro. Meta shiro holding back other features Rev

    If meta shiro wasn't a thing Revenant would be in the same place Ele is right now. It's not meta shiro holding back other features of the class, it's that the other features do not hold any value over any other options given by other classes.

  • Maddog.3716Maddog.3716 Member ✭✭

    @Snellibee.2761 said:

    @Maddog.3716 said:

    @Snellibee.2761 said:

    @Maddog.3716 said:

    @Snellibee.2761 said:

    @Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @Miyu.8137 said:
    All these topics about nerfing "InsertRandomClass" won't help anything. Can you not be more specific? What exactly do you find OP? What skill? What trait? What utility? When we know, we can actually discuss the problematic parts and evantually propose solution.

    At first, you'd think it's the damage output. But it isn't actually the damage that's the problem, it's the chase potential. You seriously cannot escape a Herald that wants you dead. Between Unrelenting Assault and Phase Traversal, it's too much chase power. If it engages you when you are already low on resources, there is no way to counter play the mixture of its chase potential paired with its very consistent high damage output. Unlike a Soulbeast, who has his kill burst in short intervals that go on significant CDs, the Herald actually has high "Damage Per Second", even with random spam attacks, that ultimately cannot be avoided.

    Preferably Arenanet needs to configure something so that heralds are easier to disengage. If they don't want to do that, they should lower the damage output.

    I think this is reasonable. An energy cost bump to phase traversal might be a good place to start, and if that isn't enough have unrelenting check its range after every hit so that you cant magnet to people that blink/port far away.

    I say that tentatively though. Getting harassed at range by bomb-and-disengage condi builds or projectiles ain't a good feel, and they dont have as much block potential as guards. Gonna need to buff their active defenses if you want them to not stick to you the moment they see you.

    So either nerf damage or nerf chase/buff defense. And depending on when they land from there, condi cleanse or a significant buff to resistance on mallyx to make people consider corruption line.

    The whole idea of revenant is to be able to chase their enemy. That's their role just like thief can chase you forever. Also why do you expect to be able to run away if you're out of cooldowns? You shouldn't be able to survive if you manage your CD's bad and are in a vulnerable spot. That's your fault.
    Turning down mobility and increasing defense will literally make revenant a warrior 2.0.
    Phase Traversal already is 35 energy, it doesn't need any higher energy requirements at all because you can already barely cast any other skill after using Phase Traversal.

    People need to understand that it's actually more worth to duel the Revenant than to try and run away. Revenants aren't particulary good in 1v1's unless the user is very skilled. If that's the case you're just getting outplayed so you have to deal with that.

    The only overtuned skill on Revenant is sword 5. A 20% damage nerf is all that it needs.

    PS: Kiting on non port spots basically nullifies a Revenant so begin with doing that.

    Class in heavy armor is better to be warrior 2.0 with mist animation than thief 2.0. Understand one thing that meta shiro took the potential development of a thief in all elite specializations. As long as there is such an approach to Rev, the thief will suffer.
    Thematic role is missing: boon spam +1. What the hell is that?
    It was necessary to put legendary shiro stance on a level with other legends and watch what is missing the rest of the legends.
    P. S. I understand you spent time on the study of meta shiro and as kill playing in this build. So you don't want to lose this opportunity but there will be no development without changes.

    Theres a difference between a bunch of low leveled and low skilled people wanting a total revamp of Revenant and the high leveled high skilled players who's only complaints with Revenant are Sword 5 (Deathstrike) doing too much damage and Shiro F2 being able to crit.

    So far most people in this thread have been the first group of people. Just shows the average skilllevel the forums has to offer once again

    You talk strangely about qualifications and about people. Probably you consider yourself a high level skill player. I have the feeling that you have created meta shiro build. Although likely there is no, another you even not tried.

    I based my post on people who are high skilled and on my own experience as a Revenant. I do not claim to be high skilled but therefor it does not mean I cannot state what other high skilled players think about the class. My statements with the experience as a Revenant player are also more worth and valuable than the statements made by people who have never played said class but are making suggestions about it.

    Sorry I did not understand the post

  • Maddog.3716Maddog.3716 Member ✭✭
    edited June 15, 2019

    @Snellibee.2761 said:

    @Maddog.3716 said:

    @torben.1532 said:
    So far the only constructive thing i‘ve Seen here is naru‘s post

    Unlikely. These theoretical analyses poke a finger at the sky.
    If will nerf/buff anet will do it its own way and it will be completely different from the ideas suggested here.
    P. S. Any departure from Meta even hybrid condi is better to use shiro(Lmao). It is worth considering why.
    As the man above wrote about mirage this also applies to meta shiro. Meta shiro holding back other features Rev

    If meta shiro wasn't a thing Revenant would be in the same place Ele is right now. It's not meta shiro holding back other features of the class, it's that the other features do not hold any value over any other options given by other classes.

    Perhaps that there is no have another Rev builds there is potential. Try it yourself if you are interested and you will be surprised. Especially if the enemy team is missing meta shiro, which helps to kill the team quickly.
    As a result, meta shiro is overpowered, if people complain about it and it hinders the ability to use other features of Rev. I don't think Rev will become Ele. If this happens then it is in any case a change that can shift the overall system. The system is need to shake, meta shiro has long been sitting smoothly.
    This is my opinion I do not pretend to be true, I am for the power of change.

    P. S. In principle, it is not my problem, I have long been playing a game where I sit and think about the talents that I choose and my finally build.
    I apologize if I'm meddling. It is interesting to go to the gw2 forum and read any changes. In my opinion nothing changes here. Goodbye, gl hf!!

  • Menyus.4610Menyus.4610 Member ✭✭✭

    since 2018 every AT is unplayable cos its always the team with 2 reve who gonna win, was one of the reasons why started to rather play fornite

©2010–2018 ArenaNet, LLC. All rights reserved. Guild Wars, Guild Wars 2, Heart of Thorns, Guild Wars 2: Path of Fire, ArenaNet, NCSOFT, the Interlocking NC Logo, and all associated logos and designs are trademarks or registered trademarks of NCSOFT Corporation. All other trademarks are the property of their respective owners.