Wing 7 CMs are too easy - Page 2 — Guild Wars 2 Forums
Home Fractals/Dungeons/Strike Missions/Raids

Wing 7 CMs are too easy

2>

Comments

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 17, 2019

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    Considering that they mentioned several times that the next wings won't be w5 difficulty, it seems something there made them think that difficulty was too high - and they've adjusted next wings accordingly.

    W5 "deserved" a higher difficulty because we were fighting Dhuum himself. Imagine if the former god of death (and one of the hardest foes in GW1) was a pushover. Wing difficulty is more complicated than "how many are running it"

    Most probably they've got scared of the population drop between early wings and w5.

    Yes of course, the difficulty is what caused the difference between early wings and w5 participation and not the end reward of the newer wings being nearly useless compared to what the old wings give. Which is why they allow us to earn rewards of the previous wings by playing the newer ones. The population drop is a result of lacking rewards that they are trying to band-aid now.

    And no, i doubt it's about the decreasing game population overall.

    I can't talk about W5, but at least W6 requires a Jackal to proceed and it's curious that a LOT of players don't even have a jackal yet. Meaning a lot of the players are hard locked from even playing W6.

    I don't think the decreased difficulty was part of the plan.

    My thoughts too. Unfortunately they can't fix that now, can they?

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 17, 2019

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    The issue with W7 difficulty is that the previous wings are much harder. W6 is harder than W7 and W5 is harder than W6.

    Considering that they mentioned several times that the next wings won't be w5 difficulty, it seems something there made them think that difficulty was too high - and they've adjusted next wings accordingly. Most probably they've got scared of the population drop between early wings and w5.

    Agreed, I enjoy wing 5 a lot, I actually burned out on it when it released since I was a chrono main in raids back then, and having spent almost every day as tank on Desmina to get the kill 3 days in, I spent the rest of the week helping friends and PUGs get kills. Lasted 3 weeks until I quit the game for 5 months.

    Wing 5 is one of the most amazing wings design wise, but especially Dhuum is a very VERY frustrating encounter to practice for and difficulty wise definately ways above what many average casual raiders are capable or willing to invest effort wise. Desmina is not that difficult, but hase certain mechanics which kill the fight at a much later stage, which can be very frustrating for inexperienced raiders.

    I still think the strong drop in raider population was due to multiple factors:

    • Wing 5 was quite a lot harder than 4. Made a lot of people who started raiding with wing 4 quit again
    • there was no reward for wing 5+, especially once LD were introduced
    • the release of Wing 5 coincided with, if I recall correctly, around 1.5k total LI. Which means casual players were more than capable to get their first 150 LI or 450 - 750 LI via only easy W1-4 encoutners. I believe LFG LI demands were around 250-500 LI back then, and anything sub 100 LI was basically trash tier on average

    The lack of content and delayed living world episodes to draw players back did the rest.

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    And no, i doubt it's about the decreasing game population overall. Although i can't be sure, because those numbers cannot be tracked, i'm pretty certain that the active population of earlier wings now is still significantly higher than those of w5.

    Which goes hand in hand with the ability to cheese most W1-4 encounters with nearly kill proof setups and insane power creep. I personally am okay with this approach because it keeps new players flooding into the game mode, without changing the fights and retaining certain mechanics. We did have distortion for some fights in the past too, so it is kind of a give and take.

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    As far as w6 goes, it may seem easy, but for many puggers it's anything but. Boss 2 is a very stringent dps check (easy to pass for the top tier raiders, but a problem to the average ones), while boss 3 is very mechanic heavy, with multiple points of failure, where mechanics can't be simply offloaded on 2-3 players (think deimos - there's no equivalent of middle range strat for quadim). And of course we have players that got stopped at w5 and decided to stick to old wings for a time (there are players and groups out there that do not skip bosses).

    Even I was in this boat until I rejoined a static group. The hassle of wiping on Wing 5 was just not worth it. For me it was a few weeks of: either get a full clear group for Wing 1-5 after coming back (then W1-6 shortly after) or only W1-4. I stayed clear of only wing 5 groups because that single wing was just not worth the hassle or reward. If it got done on monday, fine, otherwise skip for the week was my motto.

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    Arenanet should do well to remember in the future to release the easier Wings first and then make them progressively harder, including in the first wing some bosses for easy currency farm. The reason Wing 4 is so popular (pre-Deimos) is because the 3 bosses are easier than the first bosses of the previous Wings (excluding "Escort"). And let's not forget the "failure" of Wing 2 with Slothasor being much much harder than the Trio.

    I don't think the decreased difficulty was part of the plan. I think, they simply tried to adjust the difficulty with each wing, trying to find one that won't scare too many players away. In fact, i fully expected w7 to be easy.

    If i am right, there won't be any higher difficulty wings in the future. If anything, the difficulty may even go lower.

    Not sure if lower, but yes, I doubt we will see a wing 5 difficulty again. At best for the final boss.

    On topic of CMs, yes I agree that CMs should be challenging and the ones from W7 were imo opinion fun changes, but doable for hardcore raiders.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 17, 2019

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    Considering that they mentioned several times that the next wings won't be w5 difficulty, it seems something there made them think that difficulty was too high - and they've adjusted next wings accordingly.

    W5 "deserved" a higher difficulty because we were fighting Dhuum himself. Imagine if the former god of death (and one of the hardest foes in GW1) was a pushover. Wing difficulty is more complicated than "how many are running it"

    Most probably they've got scared of the population drop between early wings and w5.

    Yes of course, the difficulty is what caused the difference between early wings and w5 participation and not the end reward of the newer wings being nearly useless compared to what the old wings give.

    Considering, that initially w5 was giving out LI, and you could (and still can) exchange gaeting crystals for magnetites? And that only changed when w6 (with already reduced difficulty) was released? Yes, i'm quite sure.

    Which is why they allow us to earn rewards of the previous wings by playing the newer ones. The population drop is a result of lacking rewards that they are trying to band-aid now.

    Yes, the PoF wings rewards are lacking, and that is definitely a part of them being less interesting now, but w5 during the time it was part of the same reward system has shown that difficulty is a much more important factor.

    And no, i doubt it's about the decreasing game population overall.

    I can't talk about W5, but at least W6 requires a Jackal to proceed and it's curious that a LOT of players don't even have a jackal yet. Meaning a lot of the players are hard locked from even playing W6.

    I'd say that getting jackal would be a minimal effort compared to all the other preparations you need to do for raids. People not willing to get it would probably not pass through many of the w1-w4 bosses either (there were open world mastery requirements for some as well). And would hardly be willing to learn strats for w5-6 bosses, as this requres far more effort.
    In short, i doubt this had any visible impact on w6 popularity - the people without jackals are the people that wouldn't try the wing anyway.

    I don't think the decreased difficulty was part of the plan.

    My thoughts too. Unfortunately they can't fix that now, can they?

    They could, but only after the most hardcore players leave. Otherwise, we could probably hear the screams across continents. And i'm not sure they'd want to put the effort required for that anyway. That's besides the point however - the point is that changes in difficulty were not part of some kind of grand strategy. It was just a sideeffect of Anet's adjusting to the community (even if some players might not like the end result - you can't please everyone).
    basically, if they could do it again, i don't think they would make the later wings more difficult. I think they would have made the earlier wings easier. They would probably also either not introduce LDs, or think about some better rewards for PoF wings

    So, if there will be any future raids, they will likely follow the pattern, and will either stay at the w7 level, or go further down. I wouldn't expect any more difficult wings in the future.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    Considering, that initially w5 was giving out LI, and you could (and still can) exchange gaeting crystals for magnetites? And that only changed when w6 (with already reduced difficulty) was released? Yes, i'm quite sure.

    Well you shouldn't be so sure. Even though W5 was giving LI it wasn't giving any achievement progress. Furthermore, if difficulty was the problem W6 would have better stats than W5 but it doesn't.

    Yes, the PoF wings rewards are lacking, and that is definitely a part of them being less interesting now, but w5 during the time it was part of the same reward system has shown that difficulty is a much more important factor.

    It never showed that though.

    In short, i doubt this had any visible impact on w6 popularity - the people without jackals are the people that wouldn't try the wing anyway.

    Got something to back this up though? I know people without jackals that are raiding, it's not a fantasy. Maybe they didn't like POF enough to go get that Jackal or they didn't bother before W5 was out because there was little reason to get one.

    They could, but only after the most hardcore players leave.

    And the game die? I'm not sure the developers are so dumb to want to kill their game. After all, despite the lack of rewards, despite the atrocious release schedule, raid stats are stable. Meanwhile in other parts of the game, the easier parts, there is a different story of losing half the population that bought the expansion.

  • tim.4596tim.4596 Member ✭✭✭

    Is it time to quit the game? And play something else?

  • Krzysztof.5973Krzysztof.5973 Member ✭✭✭

    @tim.4596 said:
    Is it time to quit the game? And play something else?

    Yup. That's what I decided to do. Can't take next disappointment.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @tim.4596 said:
    Is it time to quit the game? And play something else?

    Depends on if raids are the only content you enjoy in GW2.

    Me personally, I have friends, guild mates, contacts, I enjoy the flat item and vertical progression, fractals, dungeons, WvW, open world and story as well as the combat design.

    Raids for me are just one aspect of the game I enjoy and spend my time on.

  • zealex.9410zealex.9410 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 19, 2019

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @tim.4596 said:
    Is it time to quit the game? And play something else?

    Depends on if raids are the only content you enjoy in GW2.

    Me personally, I have friends, guild mates, contacts, I enjoy the flat item and vertical progression, fractals, dungeons, WvW, open world and story as well as the combat design.

    Raids for me are just one aspect of the game I enjoy and spend my time on.

    Could be multiple things honestly which were impacted by the direction raids and even fractals have been taking.

    For me, i played the game daily during s3 and when they introduced 99 and 99cm and then 100 and 100cm i got hooked on the game and so did my group of friends, friends which i met when raids were first poping up and we had new raids at a good release cadence.

    When raids slowed down and fractal cms were scraped those ppl started playing less and less and then quit. I started playing less and less when i saw that not only new fractals didnt have cm (and overall less fractal content) but they were also just less engaging and fun compaired to nightmare and shattered. Then i basically adopted the "play for a week every 4 months" aproach when i realised that without the ppl i played with the game was less fun for me.

    Alot of ppl play for multiple reason and said reasons tent to be interconnected.

  • Talindra.4958Talindra.4958 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 19, 2019

    It doesnt mean future raid going to be easy. I believe its a good mix to have easy and hard raid wings .. if you agree and believe the new wing is well design as in mechanic wise then its good thing.. as per difficulty, i believe its good to have mixed few easy wings as to encourage new participation etc.. dont be discouraged.. :p

    Death is Energy [DIE] in EU
    Envoy's Herald, EAoA, CoZ, VitV, DD, SS, The Eternal, LNHB, Champion Magus, Champion Phantom, Wondrous Achiever etc.

  • Krzysztof.5973Krzysztof.5973 Member ✭✭✭

    @Talindra.4958 said:
    It doesnt mean future raid going to be easy. I believe its a good mix to have easy and hard raid wings .. if you agree and believe the new wing is well design as in mechanic wise then its good thing.. as per difficulty, i believe its good to have mixed few easy wings as to encourage new participation etc.. dont be discouraged.. :p

    I've waited for 2 years. I'm done :)

  • zealex.9410zealex.9410 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 20, 2019

    @Talindra.4958 said:
    It doesnt mean future raid going to be easy. I believe its a good mix to have easy and hard raid wings .. if you agree and believe the new wing is well design as in mechanic wise then its good thing.. as per difficulty, i believe its good to have mixed few easy wings as to encourage new participation etc.. dont be discouraged.. :p

    It shouldnt be on a raid to raid basis because each raid takes the better part of a year.

    The only actual example i can think of a raid being easier than the next is on wings of the same story. Otherwise the first boss should be the easiest of the wing and then go upwards. (cm it should all be hard regardless the raid or boss order)

    And pmuch as others said, this was sold as challenging content if it cant achieve that for even its cms then theres no point comming back for it.

  • tim.4596tim.4596 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 25, 2019

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @tim.4596 said:
    Is it time to quit the game? And play something else?

    Depends on if raids are the only content you enjoy in GW2.

    Me personally, I have friends, guild mates, contacts, I enjoy the flat item and vertical progression, fractals, dungeons, WvW, open world and story as well as the combat design.

    Raids for me are just one aspect of the game I enjoy and spend my time on.

    What I really enjoy is the social interaction which you can have with other players towards completing something.

    Raid progression is fantastic as it takes a group of player and get them to engage together into beating the raid encounter. However this whole part in GW2 is seriously lacking.

    What I'm saying is that for new players who are just discovering GW2, the game appears to be great, tons of things to do, now more than even with the release of two expansion. However for veteran players who have already done most of what the game has to offer, there is really nothing much left. Appart from Fractals and Raids, you wouldn't necessarily group with another group of people, since you do not (in most cases) need the help of everyone but yourself (you have sufficient game knowledge to know what build to run to solo most encounters). And are geared properly towards that end, + it's generally much more efficient to do solo what you have to do. Collections can be long and tiresome, so appart from killing a few rare mobs that might prove challenging, the content is best completed solo.

    I've played a lot of MMORPG, and I really enjoy GW2, which is probably my biggest issue right now as it makes quitting the game hard. I'm truly hopping that they will change their approach to raid content or "harder content" (CM's etc...) however, the longer I stay in GW2 and the longer I realise that those things aren't gonna change... The thing is... the hardcore community really tried to push in for more raids... or even invent new ingenuitive ways to make the game interesting but Anet just doesn't seem to care. Or if they do... it doesn't show.>