don't let siege damage siege and get rid of way point contested state — Guild Wars 2 Forums

don't let siege damage siege and get rid of way point contested state

Stand The Wall.6987Stand The Wall.6987 Member ✭✭✭✭

I think a big problem is that siege can damage siege. this is how all siege wars begin, you cant ram or short range cata so you back off. guess what, they have a balli and maybe even a treb. so you build bubbles... etc. ad infinitum. possibly even revert ac nerfs.

get rid of the stupid contested state for way points. seriously, why should one troll be able to prevent an entire server from way pointing? its lame. no one enjoys this.

Te lazla otstra.

Comments

  • Stand The Wall.6987Stand The Wall.6987 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Kovu.7560 said:
    Wait, you want siege to only be useful against players? That's, like, the opposite of what I want. I'd rather siege only damage siege, if you want to damage the players come out and do it yourself instead of standing on an AC (or five) behind a wall. But I'll never get that so meh. =<

    so does the scenario I described not happen when you play? that sounds magical. when I used to play it happened all the time. some structures were literally invulnerable without dedicating an hour to siege wars. siege killing siege is the only force behind siege wars, and if I would hazard a guess I would say the majority hate siege wars.

    Te lazla otstra.

  • Eliren.4985Eliren.4985 Member ✭✭

    With the way Gates and walls got their hp nerfed I don't see the need to change things as far as siege goes. If you can't afford building 2 shield generators and keep switching bubbles you probably don't deserve to take over the things your trying to break in to :p

  • L A T I O N.8923L A T I O N.8923 Member ✭✭✭

    @Kovu.7560 said:
    Wait, you want siege to only be useful against players? That's, like, the opposite of what I want. I'd rather siege only damage siege, if you want to damage the players come out and do it yourself instead of standing on an AC (or five) behind a wall. But I'll never get that so meh. =<

    People have been asking for adjustments to the contesting mechanics for years to avoid the cheesiness of individual players being able to shut down entire waypoints strictly for being within breathing distance of a guard. I agree, but I don't see that changing anytime soon. Perhaps change it so they have to at least kill a guard or two so nearby players have an opportunity to at least potentially respond. I dunno.

    ~ Kovu

    Unfortunatly the 'good defense' means building Infinite ac's on what i see most of the time

  • Celsith.2753Celsith.2753 Member ✭✭✭

    @Kovu.7560 said:
    Wait, you want siege to only be useful against players? That's, like, the opposite of what I want. I'd rather siege only damage siege, if you want to damage the players come out and do it yourself instead of standing on an AC (or five) behind a wall. But I'll never get that so meh. =<

    People have been asking for adjustments to the contesting mechanics for years to avoid the cheesiness of individual players being able to shut down entire waypoints strictly for being within breathing distance of a guard. I agree, but I don't see that changing anytime soon. Perhaps change it so they have to at least kill a guard or two so nearby players have an opportunity to at least potentially respond. I dunno.

    ~ Kovu

    Oh they changed it though Kovu. You used to have to hit the gate to contest. Now you just need to aggro a guard. Not even hit it. Just go by one on your mount.
    Siege should only hit siege imo.

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  • Stand The Wall.6987Stand The Wall.6987 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Celsith.2753 said:
    Siege should only hit siege imo.

    so do you disagree with the statement siege killing siege creates siege wars?

    Te lazla otstra.

  • Eliren.4985Eliren.4985 Member ✭✭

    @L A T I O N.8923 said:

    @Kovu.7560 said:
    Wait, you want siege to only be useful against players? That's, like, the opposite of what I want. I'd rather siege only damage siege, if you want to damage the players come out and do it yourself instead of standing on an AC (or five) behind a wall. But I'll never get that so meh. =<

    People have been asking for adjustments to the contesting mechanics for years to avoid the cheesiness of individual players being able to shut down entire waypoints strictly for being within breathing distance of a guard. I agree, but I don't see that changing anytime soon. Perhaps change it so they have to at least kill a guard or two so nearby players have an opportunity to at least potentially respond. I dunno.

    ~ Kovu

    Unfortunatly the 'good defense' means building Infinite ac's on what i see most of the time

    It wouldn't be WvW without 20 AC's ;)

  • Stand The Wall.6987Stand The Wall.6987 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Nol Fran Shee.1285 said:
    What is wrong with siege wars?

    it is totally un-interactive gameplay that 90% of the players can't and don't want to play.

    Te lazla otstra.

  • @Stand The Wall.6987 said:

    @Nol Fran Shee.1285 said:
    What is wrong with siege wars?

    it is totally un-interactive gameplay that 90% of the players can't and don't want to play.

    Press F to interact. Then press and hold 1 to choose a power level (a lot like Angry Birds). I guess your definition of non-interactive and mine differ slightly. My definition of non-interactive means hands not on keyboards.

    Using a siege engine is a lot easier than having to cycle through a series of keystrokes, watching skill cooldowns, and trying to stay on top of a rapidly moving command tag. Maybe I'm in that 10%, but I bet you'd love some covering fire from an Arrow Cart or a Healing Oasis from a Trebuchet. (Healing Oasis should be an ammo type, not a separate launch process)

  • Stand The Wall.6987Stand The Wall.6987 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Nol Fran Shee.1285 said:
    My definition of non-interactive means hands not on keyboards.

    Using a siege engine is a lot easier than having to cycle through a series of keystrokes

    Maybe I'm in that 10%, but I bet you'd love some covering fire from an Arrow Cart

    with some critical thinking my statement is clear. most people play the game to use their skills to kill other people, not to hop on an arrow cart and press 1 button over and over with great results.

    yes.

    no.

    Te lazla otstra.

  • Swagger.1459Swagger.1459 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 29, 2019

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:

    @Nol Fran Shee.1285 said:
    What is wrong with siege wars?

    it is totally un-interactive gameplay that 90% of the players can't and don't want to play.

    You're just upset that opposing players aren't playing by your rules or preferences... You're getting outsmarted by enemies who are using all available tools and tactics to best you. Ultimately this scenario is a "you" problem, not one with the mode or other players. All working as intended.

  • Arioch.6507Arioch.6507 Member ✭✭
    edited August 29, 2019

    when I used to play it happened all the time.

    I guess my question is,why are you concerned now? It would appear as though you have stopped playing the game, and this no longer affects you.

  • TinkTinkPOOF.9201TinkTinkPOOF.9201 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 29, 2019

    WvW is a siege PvP game mode. Siege is actually very easy to counter, it's that most tags today don't know or care about it, they will bang their heads on a wall for hours. I saw this in EBG, they wiped 3 times attacking red keep, because of ACs etc on the wall killing them and their catas. I told the tag how to fix this after the first wipe, they did nothing, after the 3rd, I went to the cliff with one other person and built a bali and cleared everything.

    Siege is nothing today, it doesn't even really hurt, back before the AC nerfs, now THAT was siege wars and people knew tactics and how to deal with it, people just can't be bothered anymore and then cry about it when people know how to use it correctly.

    I will agree about WP contesting, it was bad enough that people tapped keeps all the time, but now with mounts, ANYONE can do it, over and over again. A WP should not be contested by a single or few people running by. It should only trigger when siege damage is taken, or at the very least a higher metric of people attacking guards etc, say 5 or 10+.

    "When you power creep the game and make it so that spam gameplay is nearly as effective as deep knowledge and nuance, the quality of players will decrease." -Exedore

  • Strider Pj.2193Strider Pj.2193 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @TinkTinkPOOF.9201 said:
    WvW is a siege PvP game mode. Siege is actually very easy to counter, it's that most tags today don't know or care about it, they will bang their heads on a wall for hours. I saw this in EBG, they wiped 3 times attacking red keep, because of ACs etc on the wall killing them and their catas. I told the tag how to fix this after the first wipe, they did nothing, after the 3rd, I went to the cliff with one other person and built a bali and cleared everything.

    This^. The best is the catas right up against most tower walls....

    I will agree about WP contesting, it was bad enough that people tapped keeps all the time, but now with mounts, ANYONE can do it, over and over again. A WP should not be contested by a single or few people running by. It should only trigger when siege damage is taken, or at the very least a higher metric of people attacking guards etc, say 5 or 10+.

    I want to get two of us to just continually run around the EBG keeps of our enemies on a mount, and just see how many laps it’ll be before some dismounts and kills me. Between the broken mount dodges and the ways you can contest a keep....

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  • Justine.6351Justine.6351 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:

    @Nol Fran Shee.1285 said:
    What is wrong with siege wars?

    it is totally un-interactive gameplay that 90% of the players can't and don't want to play.

    ?

    Even I throw down siege and use it. It's another dynamic in WvW. And being able to use a treb or balista to clean up an objective plastered with arrow carts is a good thing.

    "Running between objectives is totally un-interactive gameplay that 90% of the players can't and don't want to play; let me double click their icon on minimap to teleport to them!".

    Being able to contest an objective so easily is kind of lame but it also is something ANYONE can do and doesn't require you to join a blob to contribute some chaos. If you cannot take camps not sentries because the enemy is super defending, start tagging stuff to confuse and distract. Again, it's a dynamic thing that makes WvW more interesting.

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  • Stand The Wall.6987Stand The Wall.6987 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @TinkTinkPOOF.9201 said:
    snips

    if done right a t3 tower or keep can stop just about everything thrown at it. siege wars grinds everything to a standstill that can last a long time. why people think this is enjoyable is beyond me.

    Te lazla otstra.

  • Justine.6351Justine.6351 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:

    @TinkTinkPOOF.9201 said:
    snips

    if done right a t3 tower or keep can stop just about everything thrown at it. siege wars grinds everything to a standstill that can last a long time. why people think this is enjoyable is beyond me.

    Because some people like to fight instead of karma train empty objectives?

    Anet buff me :-(
    Make me good at game!

  • Stand The Wall.6987Stand The Wall.6987 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Justine.6351 said:
    Even I throw down siege and use it. It's another dynamic in WvW. And being able to use a treb or balista to clean up an objective plastered with arrow carts is a good thing.

    "Running between objectives is totally un-interactive gameplay that 90% of the players can't and don't want to play; let me double click their icon on minimap to teleport to them!".

    Being able to contest an objective so easily is kind of lame but it also is something ANYONE can do and doesn't require you to join a blob to contribute some chaos. If you cannot take camps not sentries because the enemy is super defending, start tagging stuff to confuse and distract. Again, it's a dynamic thing that makes WvW more interesting.

    lol, that wouldn't be necessary if siege couldn't hurt other siege.

    ok... this was in reference to siege wars.

    having a permanently contested waypoint is incredibly lame. taking longer to reach things isn't interesting, its boring.

    Te lazla otstra.

  • Stand The Wall.6987Stand The Wall.6987 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Justine.6351 said:
    Because some people like to fight instead of karma train empty objectives?

    cuz fighting with siege is fun for everyone... it actually makes people log off.

    Te lazla otstra.

  • DeadlySynz.3471DeadlySynz.3471 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:

    @TinkTinkPOOF.9201 said:
    snips

    if done right a t3 tower or keep can stop just about everything thrown at it. siege wars grinds everything to a standstill that can last a long time. why people think this is enjoyable is beyond me.

    Not entirely true, usually flash building alpha or guild golems, or rams with 1 shield generator is enough to bust into any T3 very quickly. Especially with the golems, the gates can drop in less than 10 seconds. It’s pretty much unstoppable unless the defenders are already pre-firing their trebs from afar as the enemy is trying to build. Outside of that, there really is no defence to this, that’s why the attackers always have the advantage. There really is no excuse for attackers to break into an objective if they really want to.

  • Strider Pj.2193Strider Pj.2193 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @DeadlySynz.3471 said:

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:

    @TinkTinkPOOF.9201 said:
    snips

    if done right a t3 tower or keep can stop just about everything thrown at it. siege wars grinds everything to a standstill that can last a long time. why people think this is enjoyable is beyond me.

    Not entirely true, usually flash building alpha or guild golems, or rams with 1 shield generator is enough to bust into any T3 very quickly. Especially with the golems, the gates can drop in less than 10 seconds. It’s pretty much unstoppable unless the defenders are already pre-firing their trebs from afar as the enemy is trying to build. Outside of that, there really is no defence to this, that’s why the attackers always have the advantage. There really is no excuse for attackers to break into an objective if they really want to.

    And for most towers, self covering guild catas at range will also pop in fairly easily as well. ESPECIALLY if there is watchtower.

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  • @Stand The Wall.6987 said:

    @TinkTinkPOOF.9201 said:
    snips

    if done right a t3 tower or keep can stop just about everything thrown at it. siege wars grinds everything to a standstill that can last a long time. why people think this is enjoyable is beyond me.

    Not everything should be flippable if properly defended. With that said, I have yet to see a defended T3 keep being able to keep out a proper tag who has at least some idea of what they are doing. There is a counter to every use of siege in both defense and offense, what it comes down to of which side wins being who knows how to use siege properly in their tactics.

    You want something they are holding and investing time and resources into defending, why do you think you should just be able to walk up and PvD and take it from them? When the game first came out to cap another servers garri required people in the guild to get on hours before everyone else, starve supply by flipping camps and building a golem and WPing it back to spawn, over and over. The guild would all get on, with coordinated mesmers to portal the golems to the keep while the zerg waited in spawn to not be spotted, once golems got close the zerg would head out, once there the golems would start, rams would be thrown and NO ONE would attack anything to not draw swords. And even after all of this, a single AC could melt every single golem before outer was down if they had a scout. And even if they didn't and you got into inner, it still took HOURS to cap. I remember fighting the defending guild in one of these fights, he PMed our tag and told him we should change our guild name to "the unkillables". They were getting on all their warriors (even uplevels) to banner lord over and over again.

    It saddens me the game mode has become so casual and ktrain focused and anything that slows down flipping a structure needs to be "fixed".

    "When you power creep the game and make it so that spam gameplay is nearly as effective as deep knowledge and nuance, the quality of players will decrease." -Exedore

  • Sovereign.1093Sovereign.1093 Member ✭✭✭✭

    sieges been nerfed. :/ ppl just need to learn the mechanic. not all of us can fight good teams out there.

    Not Even Coverage is the Only broken thing in WVW.

  • Justine.6351Justine.6351 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:

    @Justine.6351 said:
    Because some people like to fight instead of karma train empty objectives?

    cuz fighting with siege is fun for everyone... it actually makes people log off.

    What server are you.

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  • Stand The Wall.6987Stand The Wall.6987 Member ✭✭✭✭

    whatever lol, if you guys wanna defend siege wars that's fine. just let the thread die its pointless to continue arguing.

    Te lazla otstra.

  • Offair.2563Offair.2563 Member ✭✭✭

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:

    @Celsith.2753 said:
    Siege should only hit siege imo.

    so do you disagree with the statement siege killing siege creates siege wars?

    Counter siege was one of my fave aspects of this mode. Hit those catas despite their bubble wars..

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  • sephiroth.4217sephiroth.4217 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 30, 2019

    But I like contesting Waypoints with my Warclaw 😝

    Its also a good way to drag players from other maps to your contested keep... tapping Bay for instance then floating around bay and garri to kill the scouts checking it out.

    Sometimes the enemy zerg is on your borders... so you tap thier Garri a few times and more often than not the entire enemy zerg will stop sieging your keep to come and defend thiers only to discover its a "troll" that successfully single-handedly dismantled the enemy's offensive on ally keeps.

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  • KeyOrion.9506KeyOrion.9506 Member ✭✭✭

    Seriously this is how I taught Edge of the Mist players. You want INTO a location, you have to fight for that location, and you have to come up with new ways of breaking into that location. Enemy comes up to gate, puts down rams. I pour the oil. Same group comes back but builds catapults near the wall. I build Arrowcart to either kill or destroy them or their siege. They come back later, they build the catapults further, back. I build a Trebuchet. This is nothing more than moves and counter moves. You need to think of one step ahead. Watch the enemy. Where do they place siege. Why do they place the siege at that specific location. Does that siege have a counter to it. Where do you build that counter to have the most effect. I taught Tower Defense/Offense 101 for three years in Edge of the Mist. Many of your players currently that play in WvW, that used to play in EotM learned what I taught them. Whether they knew they were being taught or not, but they LEARNED. You know who has the record for gate breach? Blackgate does. 8 seconds. No siege, at Aldons. It was full zerg with hand weapons and that was it. Do you know who holds the record for a tier 3 tower wall breach? Tarnished Coast with 20 Omega Golems in 15 seconds at NE tower on Alpine Borderlands. Sometimes one type of siege, or even NO siege makes no difference in the end. What gets me now is the permaboons and Siege not even damaging the enemy. You have to build 10 Superior Arrowcarts and hope your damage output is enough to kill, one enemy? I'd almost say turn up the damage on certain types of siege, because it has become ineffective.

  • Sovereign.1093Sovereign.1093 Member ✭✭✭✭

    i tell you, why we hate siege, before. couldnt afford it. now, players are helpful to give. :/ no excuse really not to learn.

    Not Even Coverage is the Only broken thing in WVW.

  • Bigpapasmurf.5623Bigpapasmurf.5623 Member ✭✭✭✭

    So in a mode all about war and strategy you want to take out a part of that strat? Siege hitting people or siege is fine imo. If a group is cataing in ruins by SWT, im building a treb in it to counter their attempt and destroy the threat to my tower. Want to build siege in the upper coliseum? Ill build a bali to remove the cat.

    The intention of a bali is to heavily hit siege....thus siege hitting siege. You dont think there were never siege wars irl before?

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  • Stand The Wall.6987Stand The Wall.6987 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 1, 2019

    sigh... I think i'll post one more time to try and get my point across.

    say there are 10 defenders, and 30 attackers. instead of the players fighting each other, it becomes a 5v5 siege battle. everyone else has to sit there and wait. its extremely boring.

    Te lazla otstra.

  • Sovereign.1093Sovereign.1093 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:
    sigh... I think i'll post one more time to try and get my point across.

    say there are 10 defenders, and 30 attackers. instead of the players fighting each other, it becomes a 5v5 siege battle. everyone else has to sit there and wait. its boring af.

    the 30 should have some shield gens, and break thru. =)

    also that 30 shouldnt be paper. leave the paper for the kill squad.

    Not Even Coverage is the Only broken thing in WVW.

  • aspirine.6852aspirine.6852 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Hmm how about no. Siege like AC should do more damage to siege than to players. You only have a very small window to damage siege these days. And sieging players is no fun.

  • Sitting in a keep with 10 ACs and catas watching the enemy stop caring and leave isnt fun. Sitting on rams or catas holding 1 key down while your FB and scrappers spam heals isnt fun. Sitting on a treb shooting a wall you cant even see isnt fun. Yes siege is necessary for the gamemode but siege vs zerg fights are incredibly dull and inactive gameplay.

  • @Stand The Wall.6987 said:
    sigh... I think i'll post one more time to try and get my point across.

    say there are 10 defenders, and 30 attackers. instead of the players fighting each other, it becomes a 5v5 siege battle. everyone else has to sit there and wait. its extremely boring.

    Hm, I wonder why these 10 defenders don't want to go out and fight face to face against 30 attackers. Probably there is a reason behind their attitude?

  • Caedmon.6798Caedmon.6798 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 3, 2019

    I think your siege placement might be a bit off. Everyting can be sieged without balis hitting you. Then you have shieldgens that can carry against mortar/treb and the bubble from cata's aswell. You want the walls removed and a flag planted to capture instead ? If you roam and this your issue,youre doing it wrong. If you raid or blob and this is your issue,youre doing it wrong.

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