Nerf Mantra Mesmers and Revenants - Page 3 — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Nerf Mantra Mesmers and Revenants

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  • Azure The Heartless.3261Azure The Heartless.3261 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 17, 2019

    @viquing.8254 said:
    Not really, it need way more clic and preparation than all other burst class to do the same damage output.

    I've always worried about that. People say that burst is difficult to pull off because of the above reasons, but does the ability to land a full burst combo from a safe distance/without needing to heavily weigh counterpressure unless you whiff get considered skillful simply because you have to press more buttons?

    That's digression though. Let's not nerf power mesmers right now. Mantras having no telegraph is silly, but power lock as a utility is fine, and power spike has a low base damage. They still need utility given back to portal, besides.

    Revenants I can take or leave. They all run shiro/glint because nobody condibombs them.

    [Charr Noises]
    [Plays every class]
    [JUST GIT EVEN GUDDER ITS FINE]

  • Lilyanna.9361Lilyanna.9361 Member ✭✭✭✭

    So my issue is with the glitterbomb class is clutter. Not the skills or traits, or not even just the elites anymore at this point. It's all of the stupid clutter that this stupid class causes when there are MULTIPLE MESMERS on the same thing. Even with a high end pc is skill delay and busy effects is BONKERS. AND never have I ran into a class that actively slams that much clutter on a computer screen in my life.

    The concept in itself is disgusting. I VERY MUCH prefer gw1 mesmers because at least there is ONE person there doing those interrupts/Mana drain/DOTs. I don't think any pvp/fighting game had as much clones/phantasms on the screen as mesmer does in general. Yes, there are clone classes/characters, but I've never seen it so spammy. Honestly, their theme and concept is awful in a PvP sense.

  • Burnfall.9573Burnfall.9573 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 17, 2019

    All other Professions must be nerfed to the ground first.

    As for Mesmer; until a complete profession rework/redesign--Don't nerf them

    As for Thief; completely remove them until stability and healthy balances are reinforced in the game

    (Than bring them back to the game with a complete healthy complete redesign)

  • Ryan.9387Ryan.9387 Member ✭✭✭

    Mesmer is fine. The current builds are just counters for the cookie cutter double rev meta everyone is playing right now.

    Classes like rifle holo and sd theif shut mesmer down very well. It's just the case that NA has no good thieves playing and only a limited amount of good holos. Because of this you get super greedy mesmer builds running around unpunished.

  • praqtos.9035praqtos.9035 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Lilyanna.9361 said:
    So my issue is with the glitterbomb class is clutter. Not the skills or traits, or not even just the elites anymore at this point. It's all of the stupid clutter that this stupid class causes when there are MULTIPLE MESMERS on the same thing. Even with a high end pc is skill delay and busy effects is BONKERS. AND never have I ran into a class that actively slams that much clutter on a computer screen in my life.

    How its related to the thread? Mantra mesmer dont even produce that many clones to make anyone lag. Your "skill delay" is definitely not because of a mesmer, more likely your internet. Unless you are confused PvP with open world bosses.

  • Lighter.5631Lighter.5631 Member ✭✭✭

    nerf revenant

  • My how the tables have turned. :tongue:

    Joking aside, I think both experiences speak to the general undesirability of 1-shot bursts with limited counterplay. Meme build, l2p or not, it just isn't fun. Everyone will be taken by it the first time, likely the second, and probably more times to come unless they have the luxury of knowing someone to practice countering the combo with. By definition, these "meme builds" aren't common in matches, so adequate practice is seldom available there. Sure, one can study the combo "on paper" but that isn't the same as having a reliable sparring partner. Until then, sure it's a l2p issue, but one for which there aren't all that many options to l2p for a lot of people.

    1-shot just isn't healthy. Most of the 1-shot builds are "not used at the top" and serve no purpose other than to troll a large portion of the player base, many of whom will never really be able to learn how to deal with it. Not a winning formula for a populated game mode, in my opinion. So yeah, some adjustments to the offending builds, including the ones that are the subject of this discussion, may be in order.

  • Zexanima.7851Zexanima.7851 Member ✭✭✭

    @Twilight Tempest.7584 said:
    My how the tables have turned. :tongue:

    Joking aside, I think both experiences speak to the general undesirability of 1-shot bursts with limited counterplay. Meme build, l2p or not, it just isn't fun. Everyone will be taken by it the first time, likely the second, and probably more times to come unless they have the luxury of knowing someone to practice countering the combo with. By definition, these "meme builds" aren't common in matches, so adequate practice is seldom available there. Sure, one can study the combo "on paper" but that isn't the same as having a reliable sparring partner. Until then, sure it's a l2p issue, but one for which there aren't all that many options to l2p for a lot of people.

    1-shot just isn't healthy. Most of the 1-shot builds are "not used at the top" and serve no purpose other than to troll a large portion of the player base, many of whom will never really be able to learn how to deal with it. Not a winning formula for a populated game mode, in my opinion. So yeah, some adjustments to the offending builds, including the ones that are the subject of this discussion, may be in order.

    I seems like this is the hammer that hits the nail on the head. I agree with most all the nerf threads about "1-shot" builds because most of them are not healthy for the game in their current state. While there is a bit of L2P to it, it still contains a degree of luck as well (being able to expect when it's coming) which isn't good. The more important point I would like to reiterate on (and I've been guilty of ignoring) is that the majority of the player base probably doesn't have the experience or opportunity to deal with this kind of build. Just because I don't have an issue with Sic 'em SB doesn't mean a ton of other people don't. The more I participate in these forums the more I see the of the pot calling the kettle black in regards to certain profession's meme 1-shot builds. We need a mega thread detailing all the power creep and problematic builds, honestly.

    No longer playing the game due to PvP being abandon.

  • Sampson.2403Sampson.2403 Member ✭✭✭

    One shot builds like mantra mes are balanced by the fact that they're not remotely viable in any competitive environment. Take away the ability to make all in builds like this then you're just removing build flexibility from the game.

    Who here has actually played one shot mantra mes lately? I have. You literally get farmed by so many classes (especially a thief or condi mes) once they know that ur running a one shot build. And that's how it should be. Farm me or I'll farm your necros etc. - plenty of counterplay there, just dont let the mantra mes free cast. Have map awareness or get punished for not having it.

    Case in point - MLGKorno farmed me yesterday so badly while i was playing mantra mes. I've never been farmed that hard b4 in a game. He just ignored my teammates and waited for me to spawn and cut me off from doing anything the entire game. He kept tabs on me like i was a Tijuana hooker. It was pretty awful and glorious at the same time. It also made me realize how much i suck. Oof.

  • Solori.6025Solori.6025 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sampson.2403 said:
    One shot builds like mantra mes are balanced by the fact that they're not remotely viable in any competitive environment. Take away the ability to make all in builds like this then you're just removing build flexibility from the game.

    Oh no apparently as I was told in another thread you can 1v3 with a build like one shot mantra and it's super competitive. And anyone who cant do a 1v3 and win needs to L2P cause it can even oneshot full health holo's, warriors, and necro's so that makes it viable in every competitive environment

    Tingle my stingleberry

  • Zexanima.7851Zexanima.7851 Member ✭✭✭

    @Sampson.2403 said:
    One shot builds like mantra mes are balanced by the fact that they're not remotely viable in any competitive environment. Take away the ability to make all in builds like this then you're just removing build flexibility from the game.

    Who here has actually played one shot mantra mes lately? I have. You literally get farmed by so many classes (especially a thief or condi mes) once they know that ur running a one shot build. And that's how it should be. Farm me or I'll farm your necros etc. - plenty of counterplay there, just dont let the mantra mes free cast. Have map awareness or get punished for not having it.

    Case in point - MLGKorno farmed me yesterday so badly while i was playing mantra mes. I've never been farmed that hard b4 in a game. He just ignored my teammates and waited for me to spawn and cut me off from doing anything the entire game. He kept tabs on me like i was a Tijuana hooker. It was pretty awful and glorious at the same time. It also made me realize how much i suck. Oof.

    This is all personal anecdote as I don't know where to get the actual number but I would imagine the majority of the sPvP community doesn't play "competitively". Also as with most competitive video games the higher levels of PvP is the minority. Does it really make sense to let builds like these run rampant in the lower, larger community just because it's not viable in higher end competitive play? Wouldn't it be better to nerf these builds and actually give them something more healthy to play that's not a farm or get farmed build?

    No longer playing the game due to PvP being abandon.

  • DigiQWill.6378DigiQWill.6378 Member ✭✭✭

    So if I read this right, one should not be allowed to play the build he wants, because it's a one shot build that others do not know how to counter because they don't want to invest time learning how to counter it? That in itself is just ridiculous. > @Solori.6025 said:

    @Sampson.2403 said:
    One shot builds like mantra mes are balanced by the fact that they're not remotely viable in any competitive environment. Take away the ability to make all in builds like this then you're just removing build flexibility from the game.

    Oh no apparently as I was told in another thread you can 1v3 with a build like one shot mantra and it's super competitive. And anyone who cant do a 1v3 and win needs to L2P cause it can even oneshot full health holo's, warriors, and necro's so that makes it viable in every competitive environment

    I sure do hope you're trolling. A mantra mesmer right now does not have the capacity to 3v1 3 at the same time - gradually, yes- but not at the same time.

    It's not fun, but when do you actually see a one-shot mesmer in plat+ that actually impacts the game? Very rarely. Very.

  • Solori.6025Solori.6025 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 17, 2019

    I> @DigiQWill.6378 said:

    So if I read this right, one should not be allowed to play the build he wants, because it's a one shot build that others do not know how to counter because they don't want to invest time learning how to counter it? That in itself is just ridiculous. > @Solori.6025 said:

    @Sampson.2403 said:
    One shot builds like mantra mes are balanced by the fact that they're not remotely viable in any competitive environment. Take away the ability to make all in builds like this then you're just removing build flexibility from the game.

    Oh no apparently as I was told in another thread you can 1v3 with a build like one shot mantra and it's super competitive. And anyone who cant do a 1v3 and win needs to L2P cause it can even oneshot full health holo's, warriors, and necro's so that makes it viable in every competitive environment

    I sure do hope you're trolling. A mantra mesmer right now does not have the capacity to 3v1 3 at the same time - gradually, yes- but not at the same time.

    It's not fun, but when do you actually see a one-shot mesmer in plat+ that actually impacts the game? Very rarely. Very.

    I pm'd you but yes..that is real..and you'll see where it's from

    Oh and I forgot. Mesmer can bunker forever. It's better than scrapper apparently

    Tingle my stingleberry

  • Vancho.8750Vancho.8750 Member ✭✭✭

    I think ranged burst damaged should come from skill shots like in League of Legends so you have to aim carefully your big burst. Most ranged burst doesn't feel fair, cause you just point at the target and press the button. Skills like Rapid fire and Judgement might have animation but its not really good at giving information for the hit and you just point and hit no Sniping involved from the supposed sniper classes.
    Mesmer has better animation for the big chunk of damage from the rune under your feet but with all that cc in a quick succession on top of that bug with Diversion when the clones daze one after another from invisibility no less kinda ruins the point. Also it has such low CD on the burst so if the mesmererer messes up he just resets and does it again, though low CD is almost on everything now and everything is big hit skill.
    So if those skills were skill shots instead of guided missiles it would help the game feel more skillful. To tell you the truth you have to aim better with melee skills to hit anything then hitting anyone from range Executioner's Scythe, Death spiral, Gravedigger, Hundred blade, Maul all these skills have wind up and big animation for their damage output but there isn't any good one for ranged bursts. Even the Rock from Rampage is point and click magic homing missile with terribly small animation.

  • Solori.6025Solori.6025 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Vancho.8750 said:
    I think ranged burst damaged should come from skill shots like in League of Legends so you have to aim carefully your big burst. Most ranged burst doesn't feel fair, cause you just point at the target and press the button. Skills like Rapid fire and Judgement might have animation but its not really good at giving information for the hit and you just point and hit no Sniping involved from the supposed sniper classes.
    Mesmer has better animation for the big chunk of damage from the rune under your feet but with all that cc in a quick succession on top of that bug with Diversion when the clones daze one after another from invisibility no less kinda ruins the point. Also it has such low CD on the burst so if the mesmererer messes up he just resets and does it again, though low CD is almost on everything now and everything is big hit skill.
    So if those skills were skill shots instead of guided missiles it would help the game feel more skillful. To tell you the truth you have to aim better with melee skills to hit anything then hitting anyone from range Executioner's Scythe, Death spiral, Gravedigger, Hundred blade, Maul all these skills have wind up and big animation for their damage output but there isn't any good one for ranged bursts. Even the Rock from Rampage is point and click magic homing missile with terribly small animation.

    So a couple of things from this post.

    • Standard GS burst happens from melee. stealth with prestige-gs2-blink. That is the start of it. With a small semblence of map awareness you could dodge what happens next. Diversion-GS2 lands to MW +gs3+mantra of pain.
      If any bit of that combo is disrupted the mantra mes has literally nothing to use except to run.
      If this combo happens from range every GS skill's have a very very obvious tell.
      Mantra mes has no way to generate clones from range unless they dodge while in combat (meaning they would have alerted you to their presence before hand) or a phantasm turned into a clone. In which case you would be alerted.
      Everything about a mantra mirage burst or even double mantra chrono burst ( which is also a meme build) from range is completely counterable, and you have to be willfully afk to not notice it.
      We then come to the point. If a mirage using doublemantra meme goes into melee and misses. They have 2 dodge leaps they can escape with.
      That's it. they can leap for 1200 range if they blow all their endurance. Otherwise. they die.
      Their is no more stealth for 30s
      No blink.
      It's hope the person is scared enough to not fight. Or is terrible at chasing.
      This is why it's not a real competitive build. BEcause thief,Rev,Holo, rampage war exist.
      Kinda like how people say fresh airweaver is a meme build but can KD and kill you, but if they miss or are interrupted they die...

    Tingle my stingleberry

  • Vancho.8750Vancho.8750 Member ✭✭✭

    @Solori.6025 said:

    @Vancho.8750 said:
    I think ranged burst damaged should come from skill shots like in League of Legends so you have to aim carefully your big burst. Most ranged burst doesn't feel fair, cause you just point at the target and press the button. Skills like Rapid fire and Judgement might have animation but its not really good at giving information for the hit and you just point and hit no Sniping involved from the supposed sniper classes.
    Mesmer has better animation for the big chunk of damage from the rune under your feet but with all that cc in a quick succession on top of that bug with Diversion when the clones daze one after another from invisibility no less kinda ruins the point. Also it has such low CD on the burst so if the mesmererer messes up he just resets and does it again, though low CD is almost on everything now and everything is big hit skill.
    So if those skills were skill shots instead of guided missiles it would help the game feel more skillful. To tell you the truth you have to aim better with melee skills to hit anything then hitting anyone from range Executioner's Scythe, Death spiral, Gravedigger, Hundred blade, Maul all these skills have wind up and big animation for their damage output but there isn't any good one for ranged bursts. Even the Rock from Rampage is point and click magic homing missile with terribly small animation.

    So a couple of things from this post.

    • Standard GS burst happens from melee. stealth with prestige-gs2-blink. That is the start of it. With a small semblence of map awareness you could dodge what happens next. Diversion-GS2 lands to MW +gs3+mantra of pain.
      If any bit of that combo is disrupted the mantra mes has literally nothing to use except to run.
      If this combo happens from range every GS skill's have a very very obvious tell.
      Mantra mes has no way to generate clones from range unless they dodge while in combat (meaning they would have alerted you to their presence before hand) or a phantasm turned into a clone. In which case you would be alerted.
      Everything about a mantra mirage burst or even double mantra chrono burst ( which is also a meme build) from range is completely counterable, and you have to be willfully afk to not notice it.
      We then come to the point. If a mirage using doublemantra meme goes into melee and misses. They have 2 dodge leaps they can escape with.
      That's it. they can leap for 1200 range if they blow all their endurance. Otherwise. they die.
      Their is no more stealth for 30s
      No blink.
      It's hope the person is scared enough to not fight. Or is terrible at chasing.
      This is why it's not a real competitive build. BEcause thief,Rev,Holo, rampage war exist.
      Kinda like how people say fresh airweaver is a meme build but can KD and kill you, but if they miss or are interrupted they die...

    These so called meme builds are pretty non meme in +1 and teamfight situations. Longbow ranger, FA ele, GS mesmer, Deadeye have their defenses and you don't have to over commit with all your skills you point click and shoot from a safe stop and do a big hit and reset till you pick of the most dangerous target. All you points are valid only when they are alone vs something like warrior, rev or thief, but their whole idea is to follow someone and shut down anything from safe location. Those builds are cheesy cause when they strike you can't do anything about it, but left alone are easy pickings, still doesn't make them fair to play against since you would't put yourself in a weak position and its pretty hard to pressure them on account of their disengage utility. The only Meme build that could be counted as such is probably Gunflame Berserker, since it is doesn't really have that good skills for running away and the only good skill on rifle is the Gunflame ( i remember when that was the only viable pvp build for berserker before the nerfs pretty stupid to go around two gunflaming people).
    They might be bad for the tournament, but they thrive in the chaos that is ranked since when you manage to say "kill that mes/ranger/deadeye" you are already sucking dirt.

  • Sampson.2403Sampson.2403 Member ✭✭✭

    @Zexanima.7851

    In general i would agree with your logic but not on this specific case. Power shatter mesmer has already been nerfed a lot in this past year. I think that it's in a good spot now where its still fun and rewarding to play but not overpowered or toxic.

    This game will get dull really fast if you put constraints on build flexibility. As long as there is counter play to builds that go full glass or full tank, then I don't see the problem.

  • praqtos.9035praqtos.9035 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sampson.2403 said:
    As long as there is counter play to builds that go full glass or full tank, then I don't see the problem.

    Huge amount of builds counter full oneshot mesmer. Especially thief, it does counter any kind of the mesmer (people just reroll from the mesmer to another class or the game would be 4x5)

  • Sampson.2403Sampson.2403 Member ✭✭✭

    @Vancho.8750

    Sure maybe they thrive for the first fight but after that?

  • @Sampson.2403 said:
    One shot builds like mantra mes are balanced by the fact that they're not remotely viable in any competitive environment. Take away the ability to make all in builds like this then you're just removing build flexibility from the game.

    Who here has actually played one shot mantra mes lately? I have. You literally get farmed by so many classes (especially a thief or condi mes) once they know that ur running a one shot build. And that's how it should be. Farm me or I'll farm your necros etc. - plenty of counterplay there, just dont let the mantra mes free cast. Have map awareness or get punished for not having it.

    Case in point - MLGKorno farmed me yesterday so badly while i was playing mantra mes. I've never been farmed that hard b4 in a game. He just ignored my teammates and waited for me to spawn and cut me off from doing anything the entire game. He kept tabs on me like i was a Tijuana hooker. It was pretty awful and glorious at the same time. It also made me realize how much i suck. Oof.

    That build Krono and others use is basically anti-burst, the timing is rough and erratic to land between Mirage cloaks/scepter evades/distort, and by the time you find a window your health is at like 5%.

  • Azure The Heartless.3261Azure The Heartless.3261 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 18, 2019

    @Sampson.2403 said:
    One shot builds like mantra mes are balanced by the fact that they're not remotely viable in any competitive environment. Take away the ability to make all in builds like this then you're just removing build flexibility from the game.

    Who here has actually played one shot mantra mes lately? I have. You literally get farmed by so many classes (especially a thief or condi mes) once they know that ur running a one shot build. And that's how it should be. Farm me or I'll farm your necros etc. - plenty of counterplay there, just dont let the mantra mes free cast. Have map awareness or get punished for not having it.

    Case in point - MLGKorno farmed me yesterday so badly while i was playing mantra mes. I've never been farmed that hard b4 in a game. He just ignored my teammates and waited for me to spawn and cut me off from doing anything the entire game. He kept tabs on me like i was a Tijuana hooker. It was pretty awful and glorious at the same time. It also made me realize how much i suck. Oof.

    Psst.

    That build he runs is allergic to D/P Deadeyes running mal 7. He can't put pressure on you and one backstab puts his hp to panic mode if it doesn't outright kill him. If you don't mind taking a hit to your decap potential you can disable Krono in a match w/it.

    You didn't hear that from me though.

    [Charr Noises]
    [Plays every class]
    [JUST GIT EVEN GUDDER ITS FINE]

  • praqtos.9035praqtos.9035 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 18, 2019

    @Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

    @Sampson.2403 said:
    One shot builds like mantra mes are balanced by the fact that they're not remotely viable in any competitive environment. Take away the ability to make all in builds like this then you're just removing build flexibility from the game.

    Who here has actually played one shot mantra mes lately? I have. You literally get farmed by so many classes (especially a thief or condi mes) once they know that ur running a one shot build. And that's how it should be. Farm me or I'll farm your necros etc. - plenty of counterplay there, just dont let the mantra mes free cast. Have map awareness or get punished for not having it.

    Case in point - MLGKorno farmed me yesterday so badly while i was playing mantra mes. I've never been farmed that hard b4 in a game. He just ignored my teammates and waited for me to spawn and cut me off from doing anything the entire game. He kept tabs on me like i was a Tijuana hooker. It was pretty awful and glorious at the same time. It also made me realize how much i suck. Oof.

    Psst.

    That build he runs is allergic to D/P Deadeyes running mal 7. He can't put pressure on you and one backstab puts his hp to panic mode if it doesn't outright kill him. If you don't mind taking a hit to your decap potential you can disable Krono in a match w/it.

    You didn't hear that from me though.

    Who runs .... such bs builds? NA... ? Why even mal 7 over extra damage from quickness?

  • Azure The Heartless.3261Azure The Heartless.3261 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 18, 2019

    @praqtos.9035 said:
    Who runs .... such bs builds? NA... ?

    Nobody runs bs builds. I'm just whispering a counter to that specific mesmer build into the wind.

    Why even mal 7 over extra damage from quickness?

    Because you're not using rifle, you become free to use premeditation, which gives you 6% damage boost on top of the 300 power might gen if you hit 7 stacks.
    Because your focus is backstab, the only telegraph presented to the opponent other than the mark is the full malice voice line/its visual.
    Specifically for fighting that mesmer build mentioned, you don't want quickness since its invuln chain is only rarely vulnerable. you want your only strike to down the mesmer.

    It sure as hell isn't a meta build but it can break mesmers without even running Deadly arts. It's essentially old core thief with a telegraph.

    If you wanna hear more about BS builds I have this Mace/Shield Sage Mallyx Herald that can beat Holosmiths/scrappers / Those annoying scepter condi mirage builds that have started to surface.

    [Charr Noises]
    [Plays every class]
    [JUST GIT EVEN GUDDER ITS FINE]

  • praqtos.9035praqtos.9035 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

    @praqtos.9035 said:
    Who runs .... such bs builds? NA... ?

    Nobody runs bs builds. I'm just whispering a counter to that specific mesmer build into the wind.

    Why even mal 7 over extra damage from quickness?

    Because you're not using rifle, you become free to use premeditation, which gives you 6% damage boost on top of the 300 power might gen if you hit 7 stacks.
    Because your focus is backstab, the only telegraph presented to the opponent other than the mark is the full malice voice line/its visual.
    Specifically for fighting that mesmer build mentioned, you don't want quickness since its invuln chain is only rarely vulnerable. you want your only strike to down the mesmer.

    It sure as hell isn't a meta build but it can break mesmers without even running Deadly arts. It's essentially old core thief with a telegraph.

    If you wanna hear more about BS builds I have this Mace/Shield Sage Mallyx Herald that can beat Holosmiths/scrappers / Those annoying scepter condi mirage builds that have started to surface.

    I have seen one renegade that running around with mallyx khalla and he is unkillable for condi builds, if you bomb him and being close when he swap legend,you are a toast and everyone who was around him xD
    Also I have no clue about who are you talking about, the guy or build some person used... Some bunker ?

  • @praqtos.9035 said:

    @Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

    @praqtos.9035 said:
    Who runs .... such bs builds? NA... ?

    Nobody runs bs builds. I'm just whispering a counter to that specific mesmer build into the wind.

    Why even mal 7 over extra damage from quickness?

    Because you're not using rifle, you become free to use premeditation, which gives you 6% damage boost on top of the 300 power might gen if you hit 7 stacks.
    Because your focus is backstab, the only telegraph presented to the opponent other than the mark is the full malice voice line/its visual.
    Specifically for fighting that mesmer build mentioned, you don't want quickness since its invuln chain is only rarely vulnerable. you want your only strike to down the mesmer.

    It sure as hell isn't a meta build but it can break mesmers without even running Deadly arts. It's essentially old core thief with a telegraph.

    If you wanna hear more about BS builds I have this Mace/Shield Sage Mallyx Herald that can beat Holosmiths/scrappers / Those annoying scepter condi mirage builds that have started to surface.

    I have seen one renegade that running around with mallyx khalla and he is unkillable for condi builds, if you bomb him and being close when he swap legend,you are a toast and everyone who was around him xD
    Also I have no clue about who are you talking about, the guy or build some person used... Some bunker ?

    Kronos is a pretty well known, skilled mesmer, he runs a kind of bunkery build that peppers you with condis occasionally until you die

    As for that condi rev reflect build, yeahh it's super toxic to things like scourge. I've been polishing the atrocity I put together here in a drunken stupor for a few months

    [Charr Noises]
    [Plays every class]
    [JUST GIT EVEN GUDDER ITS FINE]

  • praqtos.9035praqtos.9035 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    @Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

    @praqtos.9035 said:
    Who runs .... such bs builds? NA... ?

    Nobody runs bs builds. I'm just whispering a counter to that specific mesmer build into the wind.

    Why even mal 7 over extra damage from quickness?

    Because you're not using rifle, you become free to use premeditation, which gives you 6% damage boost on top of the 300 power might gen if you hit 7 stacks.
    Because your focus is backstab, the only telegraph presented to the opponent other than the mark is the full malice voice line/its visual.
    Specifically for fighting that mesmer build mentioned, you don't want quickness since its invuln chain is only rarely vulnerable. you want your only strike to down the mesmer.

    It sure as hell isn't a meta build but it can break mesmers without even running Deadly arts. It's essentially old core thief with a telegraph.

    If you wanna hear more about BS builds I have this Mace/Shield Sage Mallyx Herald that can beat Holosmiths/scrappers / Those annoying scepter condi mirage builds that have started to surface.

    I have seen one renegade that running around with mallyx khalla and he is unkillable for condi builds, if you bomb him and being close when he swap legend,you are a toast and everyone who was around him xD
    Also I have no clue about who are you talking about, the guy or build some person used... Some bunker ?

    Kronos is a pretty well known, skilled mesmer, he runs a kind of bunkery build that peppers you with condis occasionally until you die

    As for that condi rev reflect build, yeahh it's super toxic to things like scourge. I've been polishing the atrocity I put together here in a drunken stupor for a few months

    Never heard about such well known mesmer :joy:
    Just as all NA mesmers I never knew about before someone link to their channel or something like that

  • viquing.8254viquing.8254 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 18, 2019

    @Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

    @viquing.8254 said:
    Not really, it need way more clic and preparation than all other burst class to do the same damage output.

    I've always worried about that. People say that burst is difficult to pull off because of the above reasons, but does the ability to land a full burst combo from a safe distance/without needing to heavily weigh counterpressure unless you whiff get considered skillful simply because you have to press more buttons?

    That's digression though. Let's not nerf power mesmers right now. Mantras having no telegraph is silly, but power lock as a utility is fine, and power spike has a low base damage. They still need utility given back to portal, besides.

    Revenants I can take or leave. They all run shiro/glint because nobody condibombs them.

    Well to give you and example : mesmer have to pop clones for burst (max F1 value is around 4k5/illusion.) and be near a target.
    So you have the skill who pop the clone animation (basically 2 GS.) then you see the mesmer coming near you to burst (because he can't stay melee.).
    To hide the "hey I move near you to burst" they have to use stealth or blink.
    This is the basic mesmer burst who does 10 k on 3 clic with a little preparation.

    Then you have class like rev, holo or war who push 1 button then do 4 to 10k. Less combo needed, no preparation, very low animation thanks to melee + quickness. It's even worst when they start to combo hit by chaining CC/normal rotation. For example 1 clic bullcharge : 4k + 3 sec hard CC + mobility + evade. Then a 6K F1 or whirkwind. You have the same output as mesmer but way less prerequisites (And I didn"t even count the random 3k evade.). Same for rev and holo rotation : they clic, something happened, opponent is under pressure, out of burst combo, it's not really true for mesmers.

    About having to press more buttons : the less buttons you have to press, the more concentration you can use on map reading/kitting, target rotation etc.

  • Hylo.1968Hylo.1968 Member ✭✭

    @viquing.8254 said:

    @Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

    @viquing.8254 said:
    Not really, it need way more clic and preparation than all other burst class to do the same damage output.

    I've always worried about that. People say that burst is difficult to pull off because of the above reasons, but does the ability to land a full burst combo from a safe distance/without needing to heavily weigh counterpressure unless you whiff get considered skillful simply because you have to press more buttons?

    That's digression though. Let's not nerf power mesmers right now. Mantras having no telegraph is silly, but power lock as a utility is fine, and power spike has a low base damage. They still need utility given back to portal, besides.

    Revenants I can take or leave. They all run shiro/glint because nobody condibombs them.

    Well to give you and example : mesmer have to pop clones for burst (max F1 value is around 4k5/illusion.) and be near a target.
    So you have the skill who pop the clone animation (basically 2 GS.) then you see the mesmer coming near you to burst (because he can't stay melee.).
    To hide the "hey I move near you to burst" they have to use stealth or blink.
    This is the basic mesmer burst who does 10 k on 3 clic with a little preparation.

    Then you have class like rev, holo or war who push 1 button then do 4 to 10k. Less combo needed, no preparation, very low animation thanks to melee + quickness. It's even worst when they start to combo hit by chaining CC/normal rotation. For example 1 clic bullcharge : 4k + 3 sec hard CC + mobility + evade. Then a 6K F1 or whirkwind. You have the same output as mesmer but way less prerequisites (And I didn"t even count the random 3k evade.). Same for rev and holo rotation : they clic, something happened, opponent is under pressure, out of burst combo, it's not really true for mesmers.

    About having to press more buttons : the less buttons you have to press, the more concentration you can use on map reading/kitting, target rotation etc.

    counting Blink/Jaunt+ f3/mantra, are 5 skills not 3

  • shippage.1983shippage.1983 Member ✭✭✭

    Power Mesmer really isn't that OP, and imo, condi Mesmer is still better. It gets shut down by stab and is very fragile. Every class has a way to counter it, and you can always see them coming because Mesmer's stealth last about 4 seconds max.

    This is a L2P issue.

    Shípp - Mesmer main 🐉
    Feel free to add me in game.
    I mostly PvP and open world PvE.

  • viquing.8254viquing.8254 Member ✭✭✭

    @Hylo.1968 said:
    counting Blink/Jaunt+ f3/mantra, are 5 skills not 3

    @Sampson.2403 said:
    Technically the full burstis 9 cooldowns which is why it's a total bummer if you miss it:

    The Prestige -> Blink -> Mirror Blade -> Diversion -> Power Spike-> Jaunt -> Mind Wrack -> Mind Stab

    I was refering to the minimalist combo. Ofc it can be way more actions.

  • Adry.7512Adry.7512 Member ✭✭✭

    @shadowpass.4236 said:
    I just fought against a double mantra mesmer, double rev duo.

    There are:

    1. No animations to dodge
    2. 17 different targets on my screen
    3. They can be at 3 points simultaneously
    4. If I stop dodging I get one-shot
    5. I'm perma revealed and all of their attacks are unblockable
    6. Stability gets instantly stripped and if you don't die you can't cast any skills because of the cc chains and constant interrupts
    7. You can't run away from them
    8. No-port spots are useless

    Mantras should not exist and both builds/classes both need huge damage nerfs and reworks. Matches like these are actually unplayable. There are no ways to fight against builds/comps like these and they do not require any skill to play. Unlike sic em longbow soulbeasts, there are no tells for the damage and you can't defend yourself with line of sight and terrain.

    QQ T-T L2P

    You’re not asking for a nerf. You’re asking for the elimination of a skill lol.....I fight mesmers all the time cause it’s a common class. Train your eyes to follow the real Mesmer and kill it. Mesmers are very squishy especially if they are running a burst build....literally all you have to do is stay on the real one and they die. Burst builds have usually 1 main burst, a backup burst, and an escape plan. Dodge a couple of bursts, learn when to keep your distance and when you engage, and when their bursts are on cooldown they die in like 5 seconds.

  • TOM.9712TOM.9712 Member

    Hello, here are the thoughts of a main power chrono in plat 2.
    •first, it's a build that requires a lot of skill : when i started playing power chrono (instead of power mirage, wich means that i was an experienced power mes) i lost 200 points of rating, and it took me more than a month to go back in plat 2, indeed this kind of build is not permissive at all.
    •the burst of power mes is based around stuns, wich means that simply having stab is a -50% dmg lets see if the classes that duel(wich means the classes susceptible to get +1ed) atm have a decent access to stab:
    -holo/scrapper 75% stab uptime
    -weaver 50% stab uptime
    -condi mirage no stab so it's a good one but who plays condi mirage atm? Noone
    -sb with the elite stance nerf we see more and more the shout elite, wich means a rly good stab uptime(+the stance)
    -war no stab vey good matchup, even in duel
    Every other class have nothing to do in duels and deserve every os they will get by trying to duel.
    •having stab or prot or aegis means no os for the mes, wich means that in nearly any case a mes can os in a teamfight situation(if the target is already pressured every +1 can get the kill, it has nothing to do with power mes)
    •if u have a bit of map awarness u should see th mesmer coming and this even b4 the 3 sec of prestige. If no stealth the burst is super obvious, if stealth u have to count to 2,5 sec and dodge. If u do''t see a +1 coming then u misplayed. It's a fair trade : if u misplay u die, if a power chrono misplays he is pretty much dead
    •i think that mantra mes benefits from one thing : since it's bad, it's only played by some rare ppl so a lot of players have no idea about the animations and counterplays of this build
    •i think that a lot of mantra mes will agree : most of the players of this build(except the ppl that play that once a month or just because they got os and think it's an op and ez build, thoose get farmed) are ppl that have played a lot in pvp and are bored of that permissive meta(from passives and huge defensive capabilities) and who want to play something that feels like pre-hot gw2 which is not braindead. Thoose ppl are nearly always confirmed players who are above the average pvp player and is able to deal with a non permissive build
    To conclude it's a build that requires skills, that is not that hard to counterplay if u know what your playing against.

  • Hylo.1968Hylo.1968 Member ✭✭

    @Sampson.2403 said:
    Technically the full burstis 9 cooldowns which is why it's a total bummer if you miss it:

    The Prestige -> Blink -> Mirror Blade -> Diversion -> Power Spike-> Jaunt -> Mind Wrack -> Mind Stab

    not every build uses torch off hand, also why would you use jaunt after blink? 😂

  • Xstein.2187Xstein.2187 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 22, 2019

    @Hylo.1968 said:

    @Sampson.2403 said:
    Technically the full burstis 9 cooldowns which is why it's a total bummer if you miss it:

    The Prestige -> Blink -> Mirror Blade -> Diversion -> Power Spike-> Jaunt -> Mind Wrack -> Mind Stab

    not every build uses torch off hand, also why would you use jaunt after blink? 😂

    I think he is referring to the rotation where if you have self-deception, you use jaunt to get a second clone for a 2 clone mind wrack instead of 1. However, this is not possible with chrono (you can use continuum split in the rotation instead), and he is leaving out your mantras which also need to be clicked in the most 'bursty' builds and at take up skill slots.

    However, additionally, most people don't realize if you do the EXACT same thing the entire PvP match, you are likely not to be very successful. You want to avoid being too predictable in PvP matches.

  • Solori.6025Solori.6025 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Hylo.1968 said:

    @Sampson.2403 said:
    Technically the full burstis 9 cooldowns which is why it's a total bummer if you miss it:

    The Prestige -> Blink -> Mirror Blade -> Diversion -> Power Spike-> Jaunt -> Mind Wrack -> Mind Stab

    not every build uses torch off hand, also why would you use jaunt after blink? 😂

    ......for the clone. ....and not using torch means this build is as predictable as a GS warrior.

    Tingle my stingleberry

  • Firebeard.1746Firebeard.1746 Member ✭✭✭

    Even though i don't run these i'm infuriated you're asking for nerfs. I feel like last season there was so much bunker/soulbeast meta that it was ridiculous. There should be multiple viable play styles.

  • Hylo.1968Hylo.1968 Member ✭✭

    @Solori.6025 said:

    @Hylo.1968 said:

    @Sampson.2403 said:
    Technically the full burstis 9 cooldowns which is why it's a total bummer if you miss it:

    The Prestige -> Blink -> Mirror Blade -> Diversion -> Power Spike-> Jaunt -> Mind Wrack -> Mind Stab

    not every build uses torch off hand, also why would you use jaunt after blink? 😂

    ......for the clone. ....and not using torch means this build is as predictable as a GS warrior.

    wasting cds to burst just for a clone... just no

  • Hylo.1968Hylo.1968 Member ✭✭
    edited June 22, 2019

    @Hylo.1968 said:

    @Solori.6025 said:

    @Hylo.1968 said:

    @Sampson.2403 said:
    Technically the full burstis 9 cooldowns which is why it's a total bummer if you miss it:

    The Prestige -> Blink -> Mirror Blade -> Diversion -> Power Spike-> Jaunt -> Mind Wrack -> Mind Stab

    not every build uses torch off hand, also why would you use jaunt after blink? 😂

    ......for the clone. ....and not using torch means this build is as predictable as a GS warrior.

    wasting cds to burst just for a clone... just no

    it's not predictable at all

  • Xstein.2187Xstein.2187 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 23, 2019

    @Hylo.1968 said:

    @Hylo.1968 said:

    @Solori.6025 said:

    @Hylo.1968 said:

    @Sampson.2403 said:
    Technically the full burstis 9 cooldowns which is why it's a total bummer if you miss it:

    The Prestige -> Blink -> Mirror Blade -> Diversion -> Power Spike-> Jaunt -> Mind Wrack -> Mind Stab

    not every build uses torch off hand, also why would you use jaunt after blink? 😂

    ......for the clone. ....and not using torch means this build is as predictable as a GS warrior.

    wasting cds to burst just for a clone... just no

    it's not predictable at all

    Sorry, you are wrong. Yes, it is. Mirror Blade takes 3/4 sec to channel and makes a huge animation where the mesmer lifts the sword all the way up to their head and then brings it down. By the time you finish with the rest of the combo, you are looking at over a second. I know 1.5 seconds or so doesn't seem like very much to expect your opponent not to move at all, but believe me, it isn't. That is why it is extremely important to try to cover up part of the burst time. You NEED to try to shorten that time up, or at least part of your opponents knowledge of that time. Almost all PvE content has activation times shorter than this that the game expects you to be able to dodge. Is it possible that your opponent doesn't dodge? Yes. However, against good opponents you can't expect them to wait for you to press 7 buttons before they press 1 dodge button without trying to 'cover up' your actions or make it less predictable. It is not going to happen. Additionally, if they do dodge your mirror blade, you are in for a huge world of hurt that I will explain below.

  • sephiroth.4217sephiroth.4217 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 22, 2019

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:
    I've never liked the idea of mantras, at least the ones that do damage. Inherently uncompetitive. The interrupt is fine but not with damage from Power Block.

    The Top Row traits on Chronomancer provides ridiculous damage and need serious nerfs.

    Power Block is a very balanced trait, the dmg is not high enough to be even near as broken. The only traits need a nerf because they are op in their effects and make Mantra of Distraction rewarding even when only random spammed without interrupting or only interrupting autoattacks are CI and Lost Time. Mantra of Distraction with Powerblock is balanced and only rewards mindful interrupts on more than only autoattacks enough to be worth taking.

    In fact power block is bugged now, its cant crit/apply weakness on 3s cd as if its PVE. If you want to nerf LT, then nerf to hell LROD ele as well as it does twice as much damage.
    You are pretty much complain about the only good traits left for mesmer :) (cant say CI is not annoying to get immobed but its also in no damage traitline as well)
    They could rework GS since its in terrible state and has only 1 use -> combo shatter since 2012

    Lightning Rod hits harder because it doesn't block people out of skills for 15s...

    Leave mah Tempest alone, we dont need to be nerfed.

    (I dont think mes needs nerf either, but nerf tempest comments trigger my jimmies)

    Not to brag, but I put together a puzzle in 4 days and the box said 2-4 years.
    Please allow team queue with rewards again at our own discretion.
    06210311 251521 121512

  • Xstein.2187Xstein.2187 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 23, 2019

    @Hylo.1968 said:

    @Solori.6025 said:

    @Hylo.1968 said:

    @Sampson.2403 said:
    Technically the full burstis 9 cooldowns which is why it's a total bummer if you miss it:

    The Prestige -> Blink -> Mirror Blade -> Diversion -> Power Spike-> Jaunt -> Mind Wrack -> Mind Stab

    not every build uses torch off hand, also why would you use jaunt after blink? 😂

    ......for the clone. ....and not using torch means this build is as predictable as a GS warrior.

    wasting cds to burst just for a clone... just no

    Against good opponents, you need to cover your burst or make sure they don't know of you. If you do this, you are using basically all your good great sword skills, your whole secondary off hand weapon since torch since phantasmal mage is a condi skill, your 'special action' keys that come with your profession, and 2 of your utility skills.

    At this point, if your opponent dodges most of the damage, you are already at a HUGE cool down disadvantage to the point where you need to know you can fully outplay them or simply move on to a different spot on the map. You are already at a massive cool down disadvantage and know the opponent is at the very least going to control the point until your cool downs come back again, giving the other team points.

    This is why using one of your Jaunts has been used to gain an extra clone in mirage burst builds.
    There are even guides posted on youtube showing this strategy.
    (disclaimer: the focus build shorts used is NOT a burst build)

    The reason is simple, at that point, its better to take the risk. Unless they are low on health or cool downs to begin with, you are likely not going to kill them without using an additional clone in your burst. The reason is simple: on one clone mind wrack, the clone does 306 damage if it explodes on you. In a two clone mind wrack, each clone does 426 damage, and there are two of them. 306 is much smaller than 852.

    What is actually more of a disadvantage in this situation isn't that you are using another cool down. It is that you are adding at least 1/2 a second to your burst since jaunt has a 1/2 sec activation time alone. This is just another reason why you either have to cover your burst or make sure the opponent doesn't know you are there because if they do dodge, they now DO know you are there and they have a massive advantage on you in terms of cool downs.

  • Solori.6025Solori.6025 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 23, 2019

    @Xstein.2187 said:

    @Hylo.1968 said:

    @Solori.6025 said:

    @Hylo.1968 said:

    @Sampson.2403 said:
    Technically the full burstis 9 cooldowns which is why it's a total bummer if you miss it:

    The Prestige -> Blink -> Mirror Blade -> Diversion -> Power Spike-> Jaunt -> Mind Wrack -> Mind Stab

    not every build uses torch off hand, also why would you use jaunt after blink? 😂

    ......for the clone. ....and not using torch means this build is as predictable as a GS warrior.

    wasting cds to burst just for a clone... just no

    Against good opponents, you need to cover your burst or make sure they don't know of you. If you do this, you are using basically all your good great sword skills, your whole secondary off hand weapon since torch since phantasmal mage is a condi skill, your 'special action' keys that come with your profession, and 2 of your utility skills.

    At this point, if your opponent dodges most of the damage, you are already at a HUGE cool down disadvantage to the point where you need to know you can fully outplay them or simply move on to a different spot on the map. You are already at a massive cool down disadvantage and know the opponent is at the very least going to control the point until your cool downs come back again, giving the other team points.

    This is why using one of your Jaunts has been used to gain an extra clone in mirage burst builds.
    There are even guides posted on youtube showing this strategy.
    (disclaimer: the focus build shorts used is NOT a burst build)

    The reason is simple, at that point, its better to take the risk. Unless they are low on health or cool downs to begin with, you are likely not going to kill them without using an additional clone in your burst. The reason is simple: on one clone mind wrack, the clone does 306 damage if it explodes on you. In a two clone mind wrack, each clone does 426 damage, and there are two of them. 306 is much smaller than 852.

    What is actually more of a disadvantage in this situation isn't that you are using another cool down. It is that you are adding at least 1/2 a second to your burst since jaunt has a 1/2 sec activation time alone. This is just another reason why you either have to cover your burst or make sure the opponent doesn't know you are there because if they do dodge, they now DO know you are there and they have a massive advantage on you in terms of cool downs.

    Thank you for explaining this, cause I wasn't. I was just going to link video guides and tell him/her to self educate. Especially if they are going to give an opinion about a subject they ( now obviously) don't know about.

    Tingle my stingleberry

  • praqtos.9035praqtos.9035 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 23, 2019

    @sephiroth.4217 said:

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:
    I've never liked the idea of mantras, at least the ones that do damage. Inherently uncompetitive. The interrupt is fine but not with damage from Power Block.

    The Top Row traits on Chronomancer provides ridiculous damage and need serious nerfs.

    Power Block is a very balanced trait, the dmg is not high enough to be even near as broken. The only traits need a nerf because they are op in their effects and make Mantra of Distraction rewarding even when only random spammed without interrupting or only interrupting autoattacks are CI and Lost Time. Mantra of Distraction with Powerblock is balanced and only rewards mindful interrupts on more than only autoattacks enough to be worth taking.

    In fact power block is bugged now, its cant crit/apply weakness on 3s cd as if its PVE. If you want to nerf LT, then nerf to hell LROD ele as well as it does twice as much damage.
    You are pretty much complain about the only good traits left for mesmer :) (cant say CI is not annoying to get immobed but its also in no damage traitline as well)
    They could rework GS since its in terrible state and has only 1 use -> combo shatter since 2012

    Lightning Rod hits harder because it doesn't block people out of skills for 15s...

    Leave mah Tempest alone, we dont need to be nerfed.

    (I dont think mes needs nerf either, but nerf tempest comments trigger my jimmies)

    Oh you again... You dont even know what i'm talking about.
    Small hint PBlock =/= LTime

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