Nerf Mantra Mesmers and Revenants - Page 5 — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Nerf Mantra Mesmers and Revenants

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  • Gamble.4580Gamble.4580 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 25, 2019

    @Vague Memory.2817 said:
    I can't believe people are still complaining about mesmers. Mes have been the most nerfed class of them all. Some specs are not even viable in sPvP any more. Power chrono is a joke compared to other elites. The devs have even nerfed several core traits to uselessness which has affected all builds. Mirage literally revolves around two skills now, that's it! I seen core burn guards, warr, thieves and hold there own against elite specs, where core mes is a liability in PvP only fit for open world PvE. Seriously I think the problem some people have with Mes is they just can't distinguish the player from clones, which is what the whole base core mechanic of the class is about since the start of gw2. So what I think some people are really saying is that they won't be happy until the whole class is deleted.

    You hit the nail on its head with this comment.
    I feel mes is fine don’t bother me on any class as op but I can understand how new players would react to them. Maybe delete all clones and make mes have just auto attack? But some may still get kills vs new players so maybe nurf it’s dps by 50% also and see how it goes from there.

  • @Heartpains.7312 said:

    @AngelLovesFredrik.6741 said:
    Dueling illusion is stronger than domination anyway, double mind wrack and quickness is too valuable. I do agree with lost time getting the glacial hammer / shattered aegis / smiters boon treatment.

    Talking about Mirage or?
    If mirage this is not correct for sure in wvw at least

    Yes, I'm talking about mirage from a PvP perspective. > @praqtos.9035 said:

    @AngelLovesFredrik.6741 said:
    Dueling illusion is stronger than domination anyway, double mind wrack and quickness is too valuable. I do agree with lost time getting the glacial hammer / shattered aegis / smiters boon treatment.

    Everything you mentioned is nothing alike.
    I alrdy said that if you want to nerf lost time then lightning rod should be nerfed as well. Two similar traits with an exception lrod hit twice as much. If they do then compensate its loss(both traits)
    Imagine complain about full zerk mesmer when mesmer viability depends on chaos interruption... Nerf threads soon tm

    Guard got no compensation. Lost time still has a very strong slow tied to it.

    ~ God Tier Guardian

  • praqtos.9035praqtos.9035 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 25, 2019

    @AngelLovesFredrik.6741 said:

    @Heartpains.7312 said:

    @AngelLovesFredrik.6741 said:
    Dueling illusion is stronger than domination anyway, double mind wrack and quickness is too valuable. I do agree with lost time getting the glacial hammer / shattered aegis / smiters boon treatment.

    Talking about Mirage or?
    If mirage this is not correct for sure in wvw at least

    Yes, I'm talking about mirage from a PvP perspective.

    You are pretty questionable mesmer expert :joy:

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    @AngelLovesFredrik.6741 said:
    Dueling illusion is stronger than domination anyway, double mind wrack and quickness is too valuable. I do agree with lost time getting the glacial hammer / shattered aegis / smiters boon treatment.

    Everything you mentioned is nothing alike.
    I alrdy said that if you want to nerf lost time then lightning rod should be nerfed as well. Two similar traits with an exception lrod hit twice as much. If they do then compensate its loss(both traits)
    Imagine complain about full zerk mesmer when mesmer viability depends on chaos interruption... Nerf threads soon tm

    Guard got no compensation.

    Ok, what guardian had to do with your comment then ?

    Lost time still has a very strong slow tied to it.

    Lrod does nothing except doubled damage? Do you need my help how to use google now ? Are you?

  • ZhouX.8742ZhouX.8742 Member ✭✭✭

    @Solori.6025 said:

    @ZhouX.8742 said:

    @Solori.6025 said:

    @Chorazin.4107 said:
    How the kitten did this thread arise with Holosmiths running around?

    A soulbeast main got mad that someone said his 2 shot pew pew build was doing too much unblockable damage so he made a thread targeting mes and Rev to distract from the fact soulbeast globals someone from 1800r.

    Except he's actually a good player with valid points lol

    I mean let's be real he would probably kitten on you with most classes regardless of the class he mains so what's your point?

    If the point was too hard for you to understand they have online english classes for you.
    I stated what the point of the thread was. I don't care if he was a World Tournament player. He made the thread in spite. It's pretty obvious given the OP and the unranked screen shot to try and prove a point.
    If you wish to debate the points he made. Go back to page 1 and reply to any of the counter points.
    If you wish to sit here and make pointless attacks on my person for calling out why the thread is made without giving any actual feedback then be my guest. Reply and continue.
    I don't have the energy to go back and forth with some random whose first response is " Nah ah he'll beat you he better" like some kind of neanderthal.

    The point is he's a much better player explaining valid points to you that you want to fail to understand because you're too blinded by ... what? That scourge was nerfed repeatedly?

    Let's take class bias out of the equation here and focus on the facts.

    To guys who constantly play against top players and do inners and 1v1s with the best players in the game, it's a big difference from arguing with silvers in a forum. Different game experience entirely and you realize class potential on that level so I'm not expecting a different response other than what I've seen when a top player comes in with some points being made about 2 classes and the majority of the forums responds with nothing really substantial at all other than "holo is busted! mes has been repeatedly nerfed!".

    I get it though, it's the forums and this is probably unfortunately the worst place to vent valid frustrations about class mechanics at the top level because people are so tied to their main class that they get kitten and defensive everytime someone even mentions nerf and their class in the same sentence.

    We understand Holo is busted, this post is about 2 classes (with 2 specific builds) specifically though.

    Most of the people in this thread , let's be real 95% of the people in this thread probably don't even know what top tier gameplay is in this game, but have a plethora of excuses to make involving a class they most likely haven't even reached a full potential on or truly understand yet or even touched a duel with a top player or did inners before, so when they get farmed on it repeatedly they automatically assume the class itself is bad and don't want to take a responsibility in simply getting better mechanically and looking toward multi-classing as a solution, that's alright everybody has their own method of playing.

    I got tilted back in the day around 2014 when Backpack and other top players were exposed forming up group spreadsheet balance propositions and giving them to the PvP team directly in an attempt to balance PvP out in the game. It stopped of course as I'm sure the PvP team is entirely different now and half of those players don't even play anymore but in retrospect , it was probably the best way to do it because they just listen to any and everybody on the forums now and further degrade this game mode even more because it's too hard to balance between the massive divide in top players vs typical forum players.

  • Crab Fear.1624Crab Fear.1624 Member ✭✭✭✭

    This must be one of those top tier problems. I don't see these guys (mantra or good revs) down here at the bottom.

    Soon™ ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

  • viquing.8254viquing.8254 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 25, 2019

    Hey, I missed you :3 .
    I will not comment all posts on this thread but again there is points I'm against or at least didn't understand. (I answer this because you seems to be serious..)

    @bravan.3876 said:

    • I think it is in terms of logic quite clear that Mantra of Pain is a braindead mechanic, max range instant and nearly permanent spammable too high dmg. It should get a cd on recharge and inbetween uses at least and should make less dmg. Or rework into something else.

    As I totally agree that a mantra with no CD who can be chain cast can be improved, saying that mantra of pain is braindead and spammable with his 2.25 cast time is quite exaggerated. (And I didn't activelly use MoP since 2 years.) If you braindead spam this mantra in fight, chances are hudge that you will get insta CC/killed.

    ... (aside from a use with CI)... With a balanced trait like Powerblock it is neither broken nor easy to play...

    • I agree that Mantra of Distraction indeed becomes a problem when it is combined with broken traits, as there are Lost Time and Chaotic Interruption atm.

    Ok then can you explain me, because in the last discussions we had you never answer why Power Block is fine and Chaotic interruption is broken while they have exactly the same operating mode.
    Difference is that with power block, the opponent will just use other skill and condiclear weakness while being able to use dodges. Whereas with chaotic interruption, the opponent have to use condiclear before evade.
    Talking about efficiency there is a trait who is more efficient than the second.
    Talking about skill, it take exactly (again same operating mode) the same skill to use.

    With Powerblock you need to interrupt big skills otherwise you will not have a lot of impact or dmg

    Again, no good players, nobody, nada, aucun, will free cast big skills without security. If you wait a window to lock the "big skills" against a good player, it's what we call a unicorn, everyone know what it mean but nobody see them. If you never put some lock pressure to reduce their security, there is no ways that a lock build work because the lock window never exist.

  • bravan.3876bravan.3876 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 25, 2019

    @viquing.8254 said:
    Hey, I missed you :3 .
    I will not comment all posts on this thread but again there is points I'm against or at least didn't understand. (I answer this because you seems to be serious..)

    @bravan.3876 said:

    • I think it is in terms of logic quite clear that Mantra of Pain is a braindead mechanic, max range instant and nearly permanent spammable too high dmg. It should get a cd on recharge and inbetween uses at least and should make less dmg. Or rework into something else.

    As I totally agree that a mantra with no CD who can be chain cast can be improved, saying that mantra of pain is braindead and spammable with his 2.25 cast time is quite exaggerated. (And I didn't activelly use MoP since 2 years.) If you braindead spam this mantra in fight, chances are hudge that you will get insta CC/killed.

    ... (aside from a use with CI)... With a balanced trait like Powerblock it is neither broken nor easy to play...

    • I agree that Mantra of Distraction indeed becomes a problem when it is combined with broken traits, as there are Lost Time and Chaotic Interruption atm.

    Ok then can you explain me, because in the last discussions we had you never answer why Power Block is fine and Chaotic interruption is broken while they have exactly the same operating mode.
    Difference is that with power block, the opponent will just use other skill and condiclear weakness while being able to use dodges. Whereas with chaotic interruption, the opponent have to use condiclear before evade.
    Talking about efficiency there is a trait who is more efficient than the second.
    Talking about skill, it take exactly (again same operating mode) the same skill to use.

    With Powerblock you need to interrupt big skills otherwise you will not have a lot of impact or dmg

    Again, no good players, nobody, nada, aucun, will free cast big skills without security. If you wait a window to lock the "big skills" against a good player, it's what we call a unicorn, everyone know what it mean but nobody see them. If you never put some lock pressure to reduce their security, there is no ways that a lock build work because the lock window never exist.

    Cannot deny i waited for you :)

    Instant range dmg that high should not exist, no matter if it has cd or not. That Mantra of Pain doesn't even have cd, only a recharge is only the cake on top of its retardedness. Its a skill easy to hit and the more random you spam it the easier you hit it, because only combined with the oneshot combo it is evaded by dodging the gs2 burst. On chrono combined with Mantra of Distraction i even got bursted half HP with my Necro after i blinded his GS2 hit but the follow up with the 2 Mantras he hit with Lost Time added took 6k hp. Adding a zero clone Mind Wrack with 6k. Means with failing the complete combo and only hit not interruptable instant skills he still took 12k hp from me.

    The reward from Chaotic Interruption is way higher than Powerblock and CI is a Lock Down, secure that you hit your follow up like a hard cc (stun, knockdown...). Meanwhile Powerblock is not a killer, its a support skill. Annoying to fight against when used well. But you need to use it well, not spam your interrupts and hope to get 1-2 on an autoattack for an immob what ends the fight most likely in your favor. For Powerblock it is not enough to interrupt autoattacks. I do not restart to argue that it is possible to time your interrupts on big skills, like heals, cc and burst skills also vs good player when you know how to bait and outplay and when you have a good reaction time. That is proven in the video we talked about and other videos on the same channel. CI needs an ICD at least, better a rework. I mean you also stack might like crazy in a defensive traitline, also that should get addressed.

    It is even worse when you combine this trait with Mantra of Distraction. Want Warriors Shield Bash or Bullscharge or Hammerskills to be instant? That is exactly the lvl of brokenness we talk about here. Lock Downs/ Hard CC should never be instant and even less instant on range. Mantra of Distraction is instant ranged, can only be random evaded or sometimes predicted (mostly on Powermesmers when they want to GS burst, not even on the spammy Staff, Scepter Pistol build). It is only balanced when it isn't a lock down and the reward isn't too high, in particular the reward for just spamming it should be low. What leads to Lost Time. Lost Time doesn't even need an interrupt. To make Lost Time balanced it needs to proc only on interrupts, can not crit like Powerblock and maybe (not necessary) 1 sec reduced slow uptime.

    "playing revenant is borderline exploiting" - up condimirage 2k18

  • shadowpass.4236shadowpass.4236 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 25, 2019

    @toxic.3648 said:
    no u are dealing with ppl trying to tell u that its not a problem landing the burst if ur enemy dont dodge and u need to learn how to dodge this it seems.
    besides, stick a good player behind any class and they will do well. mantra mes included, that dosnt mean it suddenly becomes broken because a godtier player is behind the wheels, just means he is godtier player.

    that is all

    Nope, I'm dealing with a bunch of EU mesmers telling me the mantra burst is hard to land lmao...
    Shorts himself addresses all of your concerns in his videos.

    1. "You're not trying to out-skill someone. You're one-shotting someone from stealth. This build is the ultimate carry. There is no interaction, there is no response when you play this build correctly."
    2. "Lots of people are blink -> burst one-tricks. You burst with your blink. The only times you actually get kills are when you blink in from 1200 range with stealth and getting a one-shot or missing it. However, there is a more consistent way to kill someone. Use sword 3 and wait. Either they dodge or they don't. If they dodge, immobilize them after. If they don't dodge within the first second, immobilize, and go for your burst. So pretty much what happens is that you immobilize with sword 3 which puts you in combat, you swap to greatsword to gain quickness from agility sigil, and your target CANNOT EVADE because you cannot use endurance evades while immobilized. And what you're doing is keeping your opponent permanently dazed and immobilized while doing this burst which creates it so that they have the least counterplay potential possible."

    Even if they dodge the immobilize from sword 3, it is incredibly easy to just diversion as soon as the evade frame ends and land your burst that way.

    So, even the dude who plays mantra mesmer builds almost exclusively is saying the exact same stuff I've been saying. The burst is extremely reliable, easy to execute, does a ridiculous amount of damage that can one-shot multiple heavy targets in a team fight, and doesn't give your opponent any chance to counterplay or room to react if you play it correctly.

  • viquing.8254viquing.8254 Member ✭✭✭

    The reward from Chaotic Interruption is way higher than Powerblock and CI is a Lock Down, secure that you hit your follow up like a hard cc (stun, knockdown...). Meanwhile Powerblock is not a killer, its a support skill. Annoying to fight against when used well. But you need to use it well, not spam your interrupts and hope to get 1-2 on an autoattack for an immob what ends the fight most likely in your favor. For Powerblock it is not enough to interrupt autoattacks. I do not restart to argue that it is possible to time your interrupts on big skills, like heals, cc and burst skills also vs good player when you know how to bait and outplay and when you have a good reaction time. That is proven in the video we talked about and other videos on the same channel. CI needs an ICD at least, better a rework. I mean you also stack might like crazy in a defensive traitline, also that should get addressed.

    That's basically what I say about efficiency.
    For the same skill => rupt skills. There is one who has little to no impact while the second do something.
    And about the vid, I will not detail again the difference between a montage who highligh beautifull moments and stream/realtime where beautifull moments happened 5% of times. (Neither the fact that in the said vid, mosts Power block aren't on key-skill against good players.) But It prove litterally nothing than yes occasionnaly you can do something with useless traits.

    It is even worse when you combine this trait with Mantra of Distraction. Want Warriors Shield Bash or Bullscharge or Hammerskills to be instant? That is exactly the lvl of brokenness we talk about here.

    Ho come on, we are far to have a 3 sec CC who do 5k while evading plus being a gap closer like bullcharge (who is nearly instant btw under quickness.). And condiclear have far easier access than breakstunt.

    Lock Downs/ Hard CC should never be instant and even less instant on range.

    It is on 3/4 class actually, more or less random and more or less aoe, dunno why mesmer (who is supposyvly "the lock class by design" shouldn't did it".
    And yeah, I count a 0.25 sec cast time hard CC as instant. You can give mantra of distraction 0.25 cast time to be on same level as much hard CC if you want, it will not change much.

  • Sampson.2403Sampson.2403 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 25, 2019

    Can someone list out the current one shot chrono build top players are using?

    There's one on Metabattle test builds, but it's using superiority complex and mmental anguish, so I'm not sure if that's the same one being discussed in this thread.

  • shadowpass.4236shadowpass.4236 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 25, 2019

    @Sampson.2403 said:
    Are these mantra mes guys using zerker and scholar?

    Marauder amulet works as well but you'd only be able to one-shot light and medium targets. Heavy armored ones will take a few seconds longer to kill.

    Chrono mantras use Mesmer Runes.
    Mirage/Core mantras use Eagle Runes.
    Scholar would probably only work for Core but Eagle Runes are way more consistent and far superior.

  • bravan.3876bravan.3876 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 25, 2019

    @Sampson.2403 said:
    Can someone list out the current one shot chrono build top players are using?

    There's one on Metabattle test builds, but it's using superiority complex and mmental anguish, so I'm not sure if that's the same one being discussed in this thread.

    Onehsot mesmer use every passive dmg trait they can find. Not totally sure about scholar after the last nerf but i think it is still the best oneshot rune. They also use Berserker Amulet while it is not needed the dmg difference between Marauder and Berserker isn't remarkable.

    @viquing.8254 said:

    The reward from Chaotic Interruption is way higher than Powerblock and CI is a Lock Down, secure that you hit your follow up like a hard cc (stun, knockdown...). Meanwhile Powerblock is not a killer, its a support skill. Annoying to fight against when used well. But you need to use it well, not spam your interrupts and hope to get 1-2 on an autoattack for an immob what ends the fight most likely in your favor. For Powerblock it is not enough to interrupt autoattacks. I do not restart to argue that it is possible to time your interrupts on big skills, like heals, cc and burst skills also vs good player when you know how to bait and outplay and when you have a good reaction time. That is proven in the video we talked about and other videos on the same channel. CI needs an ICD at least, better a rework. I mean you also stack might like crazy in a defensive traitline, also that should get addressed.

    That's basically what I say about efficiency.
    For the same skill => rupt skills. There is one who has little to no impact while the second do something.
    And about the vid, I will not detail again the difference between a montage who highligh beautifull moments and stream/realtime where beautifull moments happened 5% of times. (Neither the fact that in the said vid, mosts Power block aren't on key-skill against good players.) But It prove litterally nothing than yes occasionnaly you can do something with useless traits.

    It is even worse when you combine this trait with Mantra of Distraction. Want Warriors Shield Bash or Bullscharge or Hammerskills to be instant? That is exactly the lvl of brokenness we talk about here.

    Ho come on, we are far to have a 3 sec CC who do 5k while evading plus being a gap closer like bullcharge (who is nearly instant btw under quickness.). And condiclear have far easier access than breakstunt.

    Lock Downs/ Hard CC should never be instant and even less instant on range.

    It is on 3/4 class actually, more or less random and more or less aoe, dunno why mesmer (who is supposyvly "the lock class by design" shouldn't did it".
    And yeah, I count a 0.25 sec cast time hard CC as instant. You can give mantra of distraction 0.25 cast time to be on same level as much hard CC if you want, it will not change much.

    Before we both guess until the world ends, just ask him how hard it is for him to get interrupts on big skills vs good player. Even i can do that with an instant range skill also on good player. I am just not good enough to stay high ranked with a Powermesmer, but i can play a match with it sometimes without instantly dropping out of P3. The few times i play Mesmer i mostly play the meta, no problem to stay high ranked with Chaos Interrupt. Means even from my own experience it is no problem to interrupt good players big skills with an ranged instant skill. It just needs more skill and brain to do it than random spam cc until you hit an autoattack for CI.

    That is exactly the point, the difference between Powerblock and CI is that CI has a higher reward that is easier to get, means it has a way lower skill floor and ceiling. It is just as broken as most low effort - high reward metabuilds in this noobfriendly casual game. It is a lock down (just like Hammerwarrior is a lock down build) and for that it is too strong with that massive might stacks, no ICD and combined with Mantra it gets completely ridiculous. The way you talk about Warrior skills make me think even more that you maybe just have a too low reaction time for an interrupt build that isn't broken. No offense.

    Mantra of Distraction doesn't need a cast time it would even be bad for the skillful reactive gameplay, they just need to nerf/ rework traits that are already overperforming even without it, so it cannot be combined with broken traits. Interrupt/ disable traits need to be balanced with Mantra in mind because Mantra is the main interrupt skill in the skillbar for mesmers.

    "playing revenant is borderline exploiting" - up condimirage 2k18

  • shadowpass.4236shadowpass.4236 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sampson.2403 said:
    Can someone list out the current one shot chrono build top players are using?

    There's one on Metabattle test builds, but it's using superiority complex and mmental anguish, so I'm not sure if that's the same one being discussed in this thread.

    This is the build for chrono mantra. Mass Invisibility and Gravity Well are interchangeable.

  • shadowpass.4236shadowpass.4236 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 25, 2019

    @toxic.3648 said:
    1. for starters im not a mes. im holo main(maybe thats why i dont see the problem that u do, even tho u are pretty much as tanky as i am on boonbeast so go figure)
    2. everyone will have alot easier time bursting from stealth, myself included. this interraction has always been there, dosnt mean its not kitten but this is true for most dps classes with acces to stealth. u urself stated that u wont die to a mes unless u dont see him comming. so if u see him comming its literally ez mode and np right?
    3. immobed? condi clear and dodge, or use stunbreak/block/invul. on holo we got it ez tho, elixir S ftw and mes is free food.
    4. again, stunbreaks/stability exists ...
    5. ye the "top player" which brings me back to my main argument , feeling like im beating a dead horse here but wth. just because the player playing the class is godtier dosnt mean the class is broken, it just means the player is godtier

    heck instead of repeating the same kitten and getting the same responses u should look at what other ppl are saying
    looking at "bravan.3876" "Lincolnbeard.1735" "praqtos.9035" "Vague Memory.2817" .

    1. Holo is the only spec atm that has a potentially winning matchup against a mesmer in a straight up 1v1 if the mes doesn't just port away when they get low. Also, boonbeast is one of the worst meta side noder builds atm. It loses against strength spellbreaker, tools holo, and mes. It wins against weaver but that's about it. And no, I don't play boonbeast.
    2. I think you missed what I said earlier. I fought a core berserker mantra mes for more than 15 minutes in the finals of a 1v1 tournament. I saw him coming, but no, it wasn't "literally ez mode and np." They are some of the strongest dueling specs in the game simply because of how much damage/cc/mobility they have. If you mess up once against a good one, you're dead. INB4 someone says I'm fighting someone that drastically outskills me, that's not the case. The same players can play any other build in the game and won't give me as hard of a time. The only builds I'd ever lose to in a 1v1 where I'm not forced to fight on point are ones like mantras where there are NO animations for the majority of their damage and they can 100-0 me without any chance to counterplay. Also, randomly evading the instant cast charges is so stupid to do against a mantra mes with a brain. They will just time them for the end of the evade frames and you'll still end up dead.
    3. Yeah by the time you press the condi clear the mirror blade would've already hit and you would've died. Even on holo after elixir s you shouldn't be able to counter-pressure the mesmer unless they decide to stand next to you and eat damage.
    4. Stab is one of the first boons to get stripped by Shattered Concentration. If you use Elixir U preemptively to prevent the stun/daze, it can get removed by sword ambush spam, shattered concentration, mind stab, or any other ccs. A good mantra mes would easily just power block your corona burst. Now you don't have stab, you get locked down by immob/cc, and you eat the burst.
    5. Mantra mesmer is one of the easiest, most braindead specs to play. It doesn't take much thought to be able to land instant cast skills. Stick the same players who'd actually stand a chance killing me on mantra mes on any other build and their odds of winning go way down.
  • bravan.3876bravan.3876 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @toxic.3648 said:
    1. for starters im not a mes. im holo main(maybe thats why i dont see the problem that u do, even tho u are pretty much as tanky as i am on boonbeast so go figure)
    2. everyone will have alot easier time bursting from stealth, myself included. this interraction has always been there, dosnt mean its not kitten but this is true for most dps classes with acces to stealth. u urself stated that u wont die to a mes unless u dont see him comming. so if u see him comming its literally ez mode and np right?
    3. immobed? condi clear and dodge, or use stunbreak/block/invul. on holo we got it ez tho, elixir S ftw and mes is free food.
    4. again, stunbreaks/stability exists ...
    5. ye the "top player" which brings me back to my main argument , feeling like im beating a dead horse here but wth. just because the player playing the class is godtier dosnt mean the class is broken, it just means the player is godtier

    heck instead of repeating the same kitten and getting the same responses u should look at what other ppl are saying
    looking at "bravan.3876" "Lincolnbeard.1735" "praqtos.9035" "Vague Memory.2817" .

    1. Holo is the only spec atm that has a potentially winning matchup against a mesmer in a straight up 1v1 if the mes doesn't just port away when they get low. Also, boonbeast is one of the worst meta side noder builds atm. It loses against strength spellbreaker, tools holo, and mes. It wins against weaver but that's about it. And no, I don't play boonbeast.
    2. I think you missed what I said earlier. I fought a core berserker mantra mes for more than 15 minutes in the finals of a 1v1 tournament. I saw him coming, but no, it wasn't "literally ez mode and np." They are some of the strongest dueling specs in the game simply because of how much damage/cc/mobility they have. If you mess up once against a good one, you're dead. INB4 someone says I'm fighting someone that drastically outskills me, that's not the case. The same players can play any other build in the game and won't give me as hard of a time. The only builds I'd ever lose to in a 1v1 where I'm not forced to fight on point are ones like mantras where there are NO animations for the majority of their damage and they can 100-0 me without any chance to counterplay. Also, randomly evading the instant cast charges is so stupid to do against a mantra mes with a brain. They will just time them for the end of the evade frames and you'll still end up dead.
    3. Yeah by the time you press the condi clear the mirror blade would've already hit and you would've died. Even on holo after elixir s you shouldn't be able to counter-pressure the mesmer unless they decide to stand next to you and eat damage.
    4. Stab is one of the first boons to get stripped by Shattered Concentration. If you use Elixir U preemptively to prevent the stun/daze, it can get removed by sword ambush spam, shattered concentration, mind stab, or any other ccs. A good mantra mes would easily just power block your corona burst. Now you don't have stab, you get locked down by immob/cc, and you eat the burst.
    5. Mantra mesmer is one of the easiest, most braindead specs to play. It doesn't take much thought to be able to land instant cast skills. Stick the same players who'd actually stand a chance killing me on mantra mes on any other build and their odds of winning go way down.

    You rly make weird wannabe logical assumtions. Have you tried to duel one of the best mantra mesmer after they put the same amount of time into another build? I doubt that because they would need years to get on the same skill lvl with another class if we don't consider that a lot fo meta builds are even easier to play than a oneshot double mantra mes.

    "playing revenant is borderline exploiting" - up condimirage 2k18

  • viquing.8254viquing.8254 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 25, 2019

    @bravan.3876 said:
    Before we both guess until the world ends, just ask him how hard it is for him to get interrupts on big skills vs good player. Even i can do that with an instant range skill also on good player. I am just not good enough to stay high ranked with a Powermesmer, but i can play a match with it sometimes without instantly dropping out of P3. The few times i play Mesmer i mostly play the meta, no problem to stay high ranked with Chaos Interrupt. Means even from my own experience it is no problem to interrupt good players big skills with an ranged instant skill. It just needs more skill and brain to do it than random spam cc until you hit an autoattack for CI.

    That is exactly the point, the difference between Powerblock and CI is that CI has a higher reward that is easier to get, means it has a way lower skill floor and ceiling. It is just as broken as most low effort - high reward metabuilds in this noobfriendly casual game. It is a lock down (just like Hammerwarrior is a lock down build) and for that it is too strong with that massive might stacks, no ICD and combined with Mantra it gets completely ridiculous. The way you talk about Warrior skills make me think even more that you maybe just have a too low reaction time for an interrupt build that isn't broken. No offense.

    So with your reasonment why there is litterally zero mesmer playing power block in EU top 100 or mAt ?
    2 choice answer :
    1) The reward isn't here.
    2) There is no good mesmers.

  • praqtos.9035praqtos.9035 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @viquing.8254 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:
    Before we both guess until the world ends, just ask him how hard it is for him to get interrupts on big skills vs good player. Even i can do that with an instant range skill also on good player. I am just not good enough to stay high ranked with a Powermesmer, but i can play a match with it sometimes without instantly dropping out of P3. The few times i play Mesmer i mostly play the meta, no problem to stay high ranked with Chaos Interrupt. Means even from my own experience it is no problem to interrupt good players big skills with an ranged instant skill. It just needs more skill and brain to do it than random spam cc until you hit an autoattack for CI.

    That is exactly the point, the difference between Powerblock and CI is that CI has a higher reward that is easier to get, means it has a way lower skill floor and ceiling. It is just as broken as most low effort - high reward metabuilds in this noobfriendly casual game. It is a lock down (just like Hammerwarrior is a lock down build) and for that it is too strong with that massive might stacks, no ICD and combined with Mantra it gets completely ridiculous. The way you talk about Warrior skills make me think even more that you maybe just have a too low reaction time for an interrupt build that isn't broken. No offense.

    So with your reasonment why there is litterally zero mesmer playing power block in EU top 100 or mAt ?
    2 choice answer :
    1) The reward isn't here.
    2) There is no good mesmers.

    You are wrong, some meh mesmer being carried by chaos/inspiration/chrono with chaos interrupt/lost time bunker in top25 last season. mAT Mes ritu singlehandedly carried by condi chaos interrupt as it does 3s immob on full condi duration mirage. Its annoying to deal with only because of immob, if they would give more boons/more condis for interrupt without immob, it would be more bearable

  • bravan.3876bravan.3876 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @viquing.8254 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:
    Before we both guess until the world ends, just ask him how hard it is for him to get interrupts on big skills vs good player. Even i can do that with an instant range skill also on good player. I am just not good enough to stay high ranked with a Powermesmer, but i can play a match with it sometimes without instantly dropping out of P3. The few times i play Mesmer i mostly play the meta, no problem to stay high ranked with Chaos Interrupt. Means even from my own experience it is no problem to interrupt good players big skills with an ranged instant skill. It just needs more skill and brain to do it than random spam cc until you hit an autoattack for CI.

    That is exactly the point, the difference between Powerblock and CI is that CI has a higher reward that is easier to get, means it has a way lower skill floor and ceiling. It is just as broken as most low effort - high reward metabuilds in this noobfriendly casual game. It is a lock down (just like Hammerwarrior is a lock down build) and for that it is too strong with that massive might stacks, no ICD and combined with Mantra it gets completely ridiculous. The way you talk about Warrior skills make me think even more that you maybe just have a too low reaction time for an interrupt build that isn't broken. No offense.

    So with your reasonment why there is litterally zero mesmer playing power block in EU top 100 or mAt ?
    2 choice answer :
    1) The reward isn't here.
    2) There is no good mesmers.

    I don't get why you are saying that when we already talked about a mesmer using only Powerblock interrupt playing in Plat3/Legend EU from the shown rating in some videos. Means he is at least Top100 and from reading his gameplay he is not only good but EU top lvl. I never said it is easy to play and that everyone can do it. I can't, you can't, probably most ppl can't but it is possible when played very well. Ppl just like to go the easy way and most other builds are way easier, that is the reason you barely see it not because it is unplayable in high ranks.

    "playing revenant is borderline exploiting" - up condimirage 2k18

  • viquing.8254viquing.8254 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 25, 2019

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    @viquing.8254 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:
    Before we both guess until the world ends, just ask him how hard it is for him to get interrupts on big skills vs good player. Even i can do that with an instant range skill also on good player. I am just not good enough to stay high ranked with a Powermesmer, but i can play a match with it sometimes without instantly dropping out of P3. The few times i play Mesmer i mostly play the meta, no problem to stay high ranked with Chaos Interrupt. Means even from my own experience it is no problem to interrupt good players big skills with an ranged instant skill. It just needs more skill and brain to do it than random spam cc until you hit an autoattack for CI.

    That is exactly the point, the difference between Powerblock and CI is that CI has a higher reward that is easier to get, means it has a way lower skill floor and ceiling. It is just as broken as most low effort - high reward metabuilds in this noobfriendly casual game. It is a lock down (just like Hammerwarrior is a lock down build) and for that it is too strong with that massive might stacks, no ICD and combined with Mantra it gets completely ridiculous. The way you talk about Warrior skills make me think even more that you maybe just have a too low reaction time for an interrupt build that isn't broken. No offense.

    So with your reasonment why there is litterally zero mesmer playing power block in EU top 100 or mAt ?
    2 choice answer :
    1) The reward isn't here.
    2) There is no good mesmers.

    You are wrong, some meh mesmer being carried by chaos/inspiration/chrono with chaos interrupt/lost time bunker in top25 last season. mAT Mes ritu singlehandedly carried by condi chaos interrupt as it does 3s immob on full condi duration mirage. Its annoying to deal with only because of immob, if they would give more boons/more condis for interrupt without immob, it would be more bearable

    Yeah I know that, we are talking about power block fine here.
    Btw, about CI, it's just because players didn't adapt their builds to counter it, because I can ensure you that there is many way to make this kind of build useless like they were during thoses past years.

  • viquing.8254viquing.8254 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 25, 2019

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @viquing.8254 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:
    Before we both guess until the world ends, just ask him how hard it is for him to get interrupts on big skills vs good player. Even i can do that with an instant range skill also on good player. I am just not good enough to stay high ranked with a Powermesmer, but i can play a match with it sometimes without instantly dropping out of P3. The few times i play Mesmer i mostly play the meta, no problem to stay high ranked with Chaos Interrupt. Means even from my own experience it is no problem to interrupt good players big skills with an ranged instant skill. It just needs more skill and brain to do it than random spam cc until you hit an autoattack for CI.

    That is exactly the point, the difference between Powerblock and CI is that CI has a higher reward that is easier to get, means it has a way lower skill floor and ceiling. It is just as broken as most low effort - high reward metabuilds in this noobfriendly casual game. It is a lock down (just like Hammerwarrior is a lock down build) and for that it is too strong with that massive might stacks, no ICD and combined with Mantra it gets completely ridiculous. The way you talk about Warrior skills make me think even more that you maybe just have a too low reaction time for an interrupt build that isn't broken. No offense.

    So with your reasonment why there is litterally zero mesmer playing power block in EU top 100 or mAt ?
    2 choice answer :
    1) The reward isn't here.
    2) There is no good mesmers.

    I don't get why you are saying that when we already talked about a mesmer using only Powerblock interrupt playing in Plat3/Legend EU from the shown rating in some videos. Means he is at least Top100 and from reading his gameplay he is not only good but EU top lvl. I never said it is easy to play and that everyone can do it. I can't, you can't, probably most ppl can't but it is possible when played very well. Ppl just like to go the easy way and most other builds are way easier, that is the reason you barely see it not because it is unplayable in high ranks.

    It's a MONTAGE ROFL.
    If I make a vid playing inspiration focus trait while owning top player 2% of time but just showing theses moments, you will ask to nerf focus trait ? (or find it fine/balanced and so on ?)
    Continue dreaming about the possibility of play like the best moment during a montage if you want but don't use it as proof please.
    And I'm not even sure he ending top 100.

  • shadowpass.4236shadowpass.4236 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 25, 2019

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @toxic.3648 said:
    1. for starters im not a mes. im holo main(maybe thats why i dont see the problem that u do, even tho u are pretty much as tanky as i am on boonbeast so go figure)
    2. everyone will have alot easier time bursting from stealth, myself included. this interraction has always been there, dosnt mean its not kitten but this is true for most dps classes with acces to stealth. u urself stated that u wont die to a mes unless u dont see him comming. so if u see him comming its literally ez mode and np right?
    3. immobed? condi clear and dodge, or use stunbreak/block/invul. on holo we got it ez tho, elixir S ftw and mes is free food.
    4. again, stunbreaks/stability exists ...
    5. ye the "top player" which brings me back to my main argument , feeling like im beating a dead horse here but wth. just because the player playing the class is godtier dosnt mean the class is broken, it just means the player is godtier

    heck instead of repeating the same kitten and getting the same responses u should look at what other ppl are saying
    looking at "bravan.3876" "Lincolnbeard.1735" "praqtos.9035" "Vague Memory.2817" .

    1. Holo is the only spec atm that has a potentially winning matchup against a mesmer in a straight up 1v1 if the mes doesn't just port away when they get low. Also, boonbeast is one of the worst meta side noder builds atm. It loses against strength spellbreaker, tools holo, and mes. It wins against weaver but that's about it. And no, I don't play boonbeast.
    2. I think you missed what I said earlier. I fought a core berserker mantra mes for more than 15 minutes in the finals of a 1v1 tournament. I saw him coming, but no, it wasn't "literally ez mode and np." They are some of the strongest dueling specs in the game simply because of how much damage/cc/mobility they have. If you mess up once against a good one, you're dead. INB4 someone says I'm fighting someone that drastically outskills me, that's not the case. The same players can play any other build in the game and won't give me as hard of a time. The only builds I'd ever lose to in a 1v1 where I'm not forced to fight on point are ones like mantras where there are NO animations for the majority of their damage and they can 100-0 me without any chance to counterplay. Also, randomly evading the instant cast charges is so stupid to do against a mantra mes with a brain. They will just time them for the end of the evade frames and you'll still end up dead.
    3. Yeah by the time you press the condi clear the mirror blade would've already hit and you would've died. Even on holo after elixir s you shouldn't be able to counter-pressure the mesmer unless they decide to stand next to you and eat damage.
    4. Stab is one of the first boons to get stripped by Shattered Concentration. If you use Elixir U preemptively to prevent the stun/daze, it can get removed by sword ambush spam, shattered concentration, mind stab, or any other ccs. A good mantra mes would easily just power block your corona burst. Now you don't have stab, you get locked down by immob/cc, and you eat the burst.
    5. Mantra mesmer is one of the easiest, most braindead specs to play. It doesn't take much thought to be able to land instant cast skills. Stick the same players who'd actually stand a chance killing me on mantra mes on any other build and their odds of winning go way down.

    You rly make weird wannabe logical assumtions. Have you tried to duel one of the best mantra mesmer after they put the same amount of time into another build? I doubt that because they would need years to get on the same skill lvl with another class if we don't consider that a lot fo meta builds are even easier to play than a oneshot double mantra mes.

    Yeah I have. The 7000 hours I've spent on this game consist nearly entirely of high tier 1v1/1vX practice/inhouses/tournaments/solo quing ranked. I've fought with/against the top players on NA for years and am friends/acquaintances with most of them including several ones on EU.

    Furthermore, I did my placements twice on EU on my alt account with 120-180 ping and placed around 1840 (top 30) during Season Nine and Ten. So I'm pretty confident when I say that the average plat 2+ players on EU are just as bad as the ones on NA. The only difference is that the amount of p2+ players are higher on EU, but the skill level is pretty much the same regardless of the rating differences between the two regions.

  • viquing.8254viquing.8254 Member ✭✭✭

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @toxic.3648 said:
    1. for starters im not a mes. im holo main(maybe thats why i dont see the problem that u do, even tho u are pretty much as tanky as i am on boonbeast so go figure)
    2. everyone will have alot easier time bursting from stealth, myself included. this interraction has always been there, dosnt mean its not kitten but this is true for most dps classes with acces to stealth. u urself stated that u wont die to a mes unless u dont see him comming. so if u see him comming its literally ez mode and np right?
    3. immobed? condi clear and dodge, or use stunbreak/block/invul. on holo we got it ez tho, elixir S ftw and mes is free food.
    4. again, stunbreaks/stability exists ...
    5. ye the "top player" which brings me back to my main argument , feeling like im beating a dead horse here but wth. just because the player playing the class is godtier dosnt mean the class is broken, it just means the player is godtier

    heck instead of repeating the same kitten and getting the same responses u should look at what other ppl are saying
    looking at "bravan.3876" "Lincolnbeard.1735" "praqtos.9035" "Vague Memory.2817" .

    1. Holo is the only spec atm that has a potentially winning matchup against a mesmer in a straight up 1v1 if the mes doesn't just port away when they get low. Also, boonbeast is one of the worst meta side noder builds atm. It loses against strength spellbreaker, tools holo, and mes. It wins against weaver but that's about it. And no, I don't play boonbeast.
    2. I think you missed what I said earlier. I fought a core berserker mantra mes for more than 15 minutes in the finals of a 1v1 tournament. I saw him coming, but no, it wasn't "literally ez mode and np." They are some of the strongest dueling specs in the game simply because of how much damage/cc/mobility they have. If you mess up once against a good one, you're dead. INB4 someone says I'm fighting someone that drastically outskills me, that's not the case. The same players can play any other build in the game and won't give me as hard of a time. The only builds I'd ever lose to in a 1v1 where I'm not forced to fight on point are ones like mantras where there are NO animations for the majority of their damage and they can 100-0 me without any chance to counterplay. Also, randomly evading the instant cast charges is so stupid to do against a mantra mes with a brain. They will just time them for the end of the evade frames and you'll still end up dead.
    3. Yeah by the time you press the condi clear the mirror blade would've already hit and you would've died. Even on holo after elixir s you shouldn't be able to counter-pressure the mesmer unless they decide to stand next to you and eat damage.
    4. Stab is one of the first boons to get stripped by Shattered Concentration. If you use Elixir U preemptively to prevent the stun/daze, it can get removed by sword ambush spam, shattered concentration, mind stab, or any other ccs. A good mantra mes would easily just power block your corona burst. Now you don't have stab, you get locked down by immob/cc, and you eat the burst.
    5. Mantra mesmer is one of the easiest, most braindead specs to play. It doesn't take much thought to be able to land instant cast skills. Stick the same players who'd actually stand a chance killing me on mantra mes on any other build and their odds of winning go way down.

    You rly make weird wannabe logical assumtions. Have you tried to duel one of the best mantra mesmer after they put the same amount of time into another build? I doubt that because they would need years to get on the same skill lvl with another class if we don't consider that a lot fo meta builds are even easier to play than a oneshot double mantra mes.

    Yeah I have. The 7000 hours I've spent on this game consist nearly entirely of higher tier 1v1/1vX practice/inhouses/tournaments/solo quing ranked. I've fought with/against the top players on NA for years and am friends/acquaintances with most of them including several ones on EU.

    Furthermore, I did my placements twice on EU on my alt account with 120-180 ping and placed around 1840 (top 30) during Season Nine and Ten. So I'm pretty confident when I say that the average plat 2+ players on EU are just as bad as the ones on NA. The only difference is that the amount of p2+ players are higher on EU, but the skill level is pretty much the same regardless of the rating differences between the two regions.

    You play nec to have that much problems against mes ?

  • shadowpass.4236shadowpass.4236 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 25, 2019

    @viquing.8254 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @toxic.3648 said:
    1. for starters im not a mes. im holo main(maybe thats why i dont see the problem that u do, even tho u are pretty much as tanky as i am on boonbeast so go figure)
    2. everyone will have alot easier time bursting from stealth, myself included. this interraction has always been there, dosnt mean its not kitten but this is true for most dps classes with acces to stealth. u urself stated that u wont die to a mes unless u dont see him comming. so if u see him comming its literally ez mode and np right?
    3. immobed? condi clear and dodge, or use stunbreak/block/invul. on holo we got it ez tho, elixir S ftw and mes is free food.
    4. again, stunbreaks/stability exists ...
    5. ye the "top player" which brings me back to my main argument , feeling like im beating a dead horse here but wth. just because the player playing the class is godtier dosnt mean the class is broken, it just means the player is godtier

    heck instead of repeating the same kitten and getting the same responses u should look at what other ppl are saying
    looking at "bravan.3876" "Lincolnbeard.1735" "praqtos.9035" "Vague Memory.2817" .

    1. Holo is the only spec atm that has a potentially winning matchup against a mesmer in a straight up 1v1 if the mes doesn't just port away when they get low. Also, boonbeast is one of the worst meta side noder builds atm. It loses against strength spellbreaker, tools holo, and mes. It wins against weaver but that's about it. And no, I don't play boonbeast.
    2. I think you missed what I said earlier. I fought a core berserker mantra mes for more than 15 minutes in the finals of a 1v1 tournament. I saw him coming, but no, it wasn't "literally ez mode and np." They are some of the strongest dueling specs in the game simply because of how much damage/cc/mobility they have. If you mess up once against a good one, you're dead. INB4 someone says I'm fighting someone that drastically outskills me, that's not the case. The same players can play any other build in the game and won't give me as hard of a time. The only builds I'd ever lose to in a 1v1 where I'm not forced to fight on point are ones like mantras where there are NO animations for the majority of their damage and they can 100-0 me without any chance to counterplay. Also, randomly evading the instant cast charges is so stupid to do against a mantra mes with a brain. They will just time them for the end of the evade frames and you'll still end up dead.
    3. Yeah by the time you press the condi clear the mirror blade would've already hit and you would've died. Even on holo after elixir s you shouldn't be able to counter-pressure the mesmer unless they decide to stand next to you and eat damage.
    4. Stab is one of the first boons to get stripped by Shattered Concentration. If you use Elixir U preemptively to prevent the stun/daze, it can get removed by sword ambush spam, shattered concentration, mind stab, or any other ccs. A good mantra mes would easily just power block your corona burst. Now you don't have stab, you get locked down by immob/cc, and you eat the burst.
    5. Mantra mesmer is one of the easiest, most braindead specs to play. It doesn't take much thought to be able to land instant cast skills. Stick the same players who'd actually stand a chance killing me on mantra mes on any other build and their odds of winning go way down.

    You rly make weird wannabe logical assumtions. Have you tried to duel one of the best mantra mesmer after they put the same amount of time into another build? I doubt that because they would need years to get on the same skill lvl with another class if we don't consider that a lot fo meta builds are even easier to play than a oneshot double mantra mes.

    Yeah I have. The 7000 hours I've spent on this game consist nearly entirely of higher tier 1v1/1vX practice/inhouses/tournaments/solo quing ranked. I've fought with/against the top players on NA for years and am friends/acquaintances with most of them including several ones on EU.

    Furthermore, I did my placements twice on EU on my alt account with 120-180 ping and placed around 1840 (top 30) during Season Nine and Ten. So I'm pretty confident when I say that the average plat 2+ players on EU are just as bad as the ones on NA. The only difference is that the amount of p2+ players are higher on EU, but the skill level is pretty much the same regardless of the rating differences between the two regions.

    You play nec to have that much problems against mes ?

    I'm a ranger main but I can play every class on a variety of builds and maintain my rating pretty easily. Also, that's a pretty silly question. If you are 1v1ing a mesmer as a necro, you're doing something seriously wrong.

  • praqtos.9035praqtos.9035 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @viquing.8254 said:

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    @viquing.8254 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:
    Before we both guess until the world ends, just ask him how hard it is for him to get interrupts on big skills vs good player. Even i can do that with an instant range skill also on good player. I am just not good enough to stay high ranked with a Powermesmer, but i can play a match with it sometimes without instantly dropping out of P3. The few times i play Mesmer i mostly play the meta, no problem to stay high ranked with Chaos Interrupt. Means even from my own experience it is no problem to interrupt good players big skills with an ranged instant skill. It just needs more skill and brain to do it than random spam cc until you hit an autoattack for CI.

    That is exactly the point, the difference between Powerblock and CI is that CI has a higher reward that is easier to get, means it has a way lower skill floor and ceiling. It is just as broken as most low effort - high reward metabuilds in this noobfriendly casual game. It is a lock down (just like Hammerwarrior is a lock down build) and for that it is too strong with that massive might stacks, no ICD and combined with Mantra it gets completely ridiculous. The way you talk about Warrior skills make me think even more that you maybe just have a too low reaction time for an interrupt build that isn't broken. No offense.

    So with your reasonment why there is litterally zero mesmer playing power block in EU top 100 or mAt ?
    2 choice answer :
    1) The reward isn't here.
    2) There is no good mesmers.

    You are wrong, some meh mesmer being carried by chaos/inspiration/chrono with chaos interrupt/lost time bunker in top25 last season. mAT Mes ritu singlehandedly carried by condi chaos interrupt as it does 3s immob on full condi duration mirage. Its annoying to deal with only because of immob, if they would give more boons/more condis for interrupt without immob, it would be more bearable

    Yeah I know that, we are talking about power block fine here.

    Ah...My bad then ....
    Power block is bugged and its.... Blowing my mind how they broke it. 3s cd on INTERRUPT for 900 damage/weakness.... its only worth taking on a mirage with sword ambush ,otherwise its a waste imo.

  • bravan.3876bravan.3876 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 26, 2019

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @toxic.3648 said:
    1. for starters im not a mes. im holo main(maybe thats why i dont see the problem that u do, even tho u are pretty much as tanky as i am on boonbeast so go figure)
    2. everyone will have alot easier time bursting from stealth, myself included. this interraction has always been there, dosnt mean its not kitten but this is true for most dps classes with acces to stealth. u urself stated that u wont die to a mes unless u dont see him comming. so if u see him comming its literally ez mode and np right?
    3. immobed? condi clear and dodge, or use stunbreak/block/invul. on holo we got it ez tho, elixir S ftw and mes is free food.
    4. again, stunbreaks/stability exists ...
    5. ye the "top player" which brings me back to my main argument , feeling like im beating a dead horse here but wth. just because the player playing the class is godtier dosnt mean the class is broken, it just means the player is godtier

    heck instead of repeating the same kitten and getting the same responses u should look at what other ppl are saying
    looking at "bravan.3876" "Lincolnbeard.1735" "praqtos.9035" "Vague Memory.2817" .

    1. Holo is the only spec atm that has a potentially winning matchup against a mesmer in a straight up 1v1 if the mes doesn't just port away when they get low. Also, boonbeast is one of the worst meta side noder builds atm. It loses against strength spellbreaker, tools holo, and mes. It wins against weaver but that's about it. And no, I don't play boonbeast.
    2. I think you missed what I said earlier. I fought a core berserker mantra mes for more than 15 minutes in the finals of a 1v1 tournament. I saw him coming, but no, it wasn't "literally ez mode and np." They are some of the strongest dueling specs in the game simply because of how much damage/cc/mobility they have. If you mess up once against a good one, you're dead. INB4 someone says I'm fighting someone that drastically outskills me, that's not the case. The same players can play any other build in the game and won't give me as hard of a time. The only builds I'd ever lose to in a 1v1 where I'm not forced to fight on point are ones like mantras where there are NO animations for the majority of their damage and they can 100-0 me without any chance to counterplay. Also, randomly evading the instant cast charges is so stupid to do against a mantra mes with a brain. They will just time them for the end of the evade frames and you'll still end up dead.
    3. Yeah by the time you press the condi clear the mirror blade would've already hit and you would've died. Even on holo after elixir s you shouldn't be able to counter-pressure the mesmer unless they decide to stand next to you and eat damage.
    4. Stab is one of the first boons to get stripped by Shattered Concentration. If you use Elixir U preemptively to prevent the stun/daze, it can get removed by sword ambush spam, shattered concentration, mind stab, or any other ccs. A good mantra mes would easily just power block your corona burst. Now you don't have stab, you get locked down by immob/cc, and you eat the burst.
    5. Mantra mesmer is one of the easiest, most braindead specs to play. It doesn't take much thought to be able to land instant cast skills. Stick the same players who'd actually stand a chance killing me on mantra mes on any other build and their odds of winning go way down.

    You rly make weird wannabe logical assumtions. Have you tried to duel one of the best mantra mesmer after they put the same amount of time into another build? I doubt that because they would need years to get on the same skill lvl with another class if we don't consider that a lot fo meta builds are even easier to play than a oneshot double mantra mes.

    Yeah I have. The 7000 hours I've spent on this game consist nearly entirely of high tier 1v1/1vX practice/inhouses/tournaments/solo quing ranked. I've fought with/against the top players on NA for years and am friends/acquaintances with most of them including several ones on EU.

    Furthermore, I did my placements twice on EU on my alt account with 120-180 ping and placed around 1840 (top 30) during Season Nine and Ten. So I'm pretty confident when I say that the average plat 2+ players on EU are just as bad as the ones on NA. The only difference is that the amount of p2+ players are higher on EU, but the skill level is pretty much the same regardless of the rating differences between the two regions.

    No clue what that has to do with what i said. You said you would kill the same player wrecking you with mantra Mes easy if they would play another build. To make that a valid point the mantra Mes would need to get just as experienced (playing it around the same amount of time) to make it comparable with his Mesmer gameplay. You make it sound like the mantra Mesmer player would suck on other builds with giving it the same amount of time and training because the other build is harder to play (in your opinion). That has nothing to do with EU vs NA and with your rating. I think that lacks in proof because from my knowledge about all good Mesmers worth mentioning they mostly play only mesmer like 80-90% of their playtime, how would you know they would be worse with another build they have played just as long?

    @viquing.8254 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @viquing.8254 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:
    Before we both guess until the world ends, just ask him how hard it is for him to get interrupts on big skills vs good player. Even i can do that with an instant range skill also on good player. I am just not good enough to stay high ranked with a Powermesmer, but i can play a match with it sometimes without instantly dropping out of P3. The few times i play Mesmer i mostly play the meta, no problem to stay high ranked with Chaos Interrupt. Means even from my own experience it is no problem to interrupt good players big skills with an ranged instant skill. It just needs more skill and brain to do it than random spam cc until you hit an autoattack for CI.

    That is exactly the point, the difference between Powerblock and CI is that CI has a higher reward that is easier to get, means it has a way lower skill floor and ceiling. It is just as broken as most low effort - high reward metabuilds in this noobfriendly casual game. It is a lock down (just like Hammerwarrior is a lock down build) and for that it is too strong with that massive might stacks, no ICD and combined with Mantra it gets completely ridiculous. The way you talk about Warrior skills make me think even more that you maybe just have a too low reaction time for an interrupt build that isn't broken. No offense.

    So with your reasonment why there is litterally zero mesmer playing power block in EU top 100 or mAt ?
    2 choice answer :
    1) The reward isn't here.
    2) There is no good mesmers.

    I don't get why you are saying that when we already talked about a mesmer using only Powerblock interrupt playing in Plat3/Legend EU from the shown rating in some videos. Means he is at least Top100 and from reading his gameplay he is not only good but EU top lvl. I never said it is easy to play and that everyone can do it. I can't, you can't, probably most ppl can't but it is possible when played very well. Ppl just like to go the easy way and most other builds are way easier, that is the reason you barely see it not because it is unplayable in high ranks.

    It's a MONTAGE ROFL.
    If I make a vid playing inspiration focus trait while owning top player 2% of time but just showing theses moments, you will ask to nerf focus trait ? (or find it fine/balanced and so on ?)
    Continue dreaming about the possibility of play like the best moment during a montage if you want but don't use it as proof please.
    And I'm not even sure he ending top 100.

    Again, how about you just ask him? Instead contradicting every argument i have without even knowing anything? Also montage or not the footage is not that cherry picked considered how much you can see from several matches. And when you are able to read gameplay you can see how skilled someone is. But as said just ask him, from what i have seen on shown rating it was what i said. I always agreed that you need kind of exceptional skill lvl to make that build work like he does, that it is not a build for the masses. My balance suggestions are also not based on footage from other players, they are based on my own experiences as mulitclass player, my game knowledge and just logical thinking.

    You know i love to discuss with you but i am also sure you could collect footage from a year and make a 10 mins video with highlights from it and i still could see that your skill lvl isn't any near to all the top lvl player in this game (the few still active and all the top player already left), no matter what class.

    "playing revenant is borderline exploiting" - up condimirage 2k18

  • shadowpass.4236shadowpass.4236 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 25, 2019

    @bravan.3876

    The two best mantra mesmers I know are CJ and Mur. I've fought them countless times over the years with them using different builds/classes and so far the only ones they've used that have ever really given me a tough time are their mantra mesmers.

    You have to play and predict PERFECTLY against a good one or else you'll get one-shot. There aren't any other builds in the game that come close to the amount of damage, low cooldowns, and mobility/survivability that mantra specs have access to.

    Mantra of Distraction and Mantra of Pain aren't the only offenders. Mantra of Recovery is an incredibly strong healing skill and Mantra of Resolve makes the mesmer effectively immune to conditions. MoR is a 19 condition clear on a 12 second cooldown lol... it's one of the most busted/loaded skills in the entire game.

  • bravan.3876bravan.3876 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 25, 2019

    @shadowpass.4236 said:
    @bravan.3876

    The two best mantra mesmers I know are CJ and Mur. I've fought them countless times over the years with them using different builds/classes and so far the only ones they've used that have ever really given me a tough time are their mantra mesmers.

    You have to play and predict PERFECTLY against a good one or else you'll get one-shot. There aren't any other builds in the game that come close to the amount of damage, low cooldowns, and mobility/survivability that mantra specs have access to.

    Mantra of Distraction and Mantra of Pain aren't the only offenders. Mantra of Recovery is an incredibly strong healing skill and Mantra of Resolve makes the mesmer effectively immune to conditions. MoR is a 19 condition clear on a 12 second cooldown lol... it's one of the most busted/loaded skills in the entire game.

    Both play only (double mantra -) Mesmer like 80-90% of their playtime or not? That is exactly my point. Ofc they are not near as good with other classes when they played it only 30 hours compared to like 3000+ with Mesmer

    "playing revenant is borderline exploiting" - up condimirage 2k18

  • shadowpass.4236shadowpass.4236 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:
    @bravan.3876

    The two best mantra mesmers I know are CJ and Mur. I've fought them countless times over the years with them using different builds/classes and so far the only ones they've used that have ever really given me a tough time are their mantra mesmers.

    You have to play and predict PERFECTLY against a good one or else you'll get one-shot. There aren't any other builds in the game that come close to the amount of damage, low cooldowns, and mobility/survivability that mantra specs have access to.

    Mantra of Distraction and Mantra of Pain aren't the only offenders. Mantra of Recovery is an incredibly strong healing skill and Mantra of Resolve makes the mesmer effectively immune to conditions. MoR is a 19 condition clear on a 12 second cooldown lol... it's one of the most busted/loaded skills in the entire game.

    Both play only (double mantra -) Mesmer like 80-90% of their playtime or not? That is exactly my point. Ofc they are not near as good with other classes when they played it only 30 hours compared to like 3000+ with Mesmer

    I don't you think completely understand what I wrote. I've fought them running non-mantra builds and they're generally a lot easier to deal with on builds that can't one-shot me without any/very little animations.

  • bravan.3876bravan.3876 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:
    @bravan.3876

    The two best mantra mesmers I know are CJ and Mur. I've fought them countless times over the years with them using different builds/classes and so far the only ones they've used that have ever really given me a tough time are their mantra mesmers.

    You have to play and predict PERFECTLY against a good one or else you'll get one-shot. There aren't any other builds in the game that come close to the amount of damage, low cooldowns, and mobility/survivability that mantra specs have access to.

    Mantra of Distraction and Mantra of Pain aren't the only offenders. Mantra of Recovery is an incredibly strong healing skill and Mantra of Resolve makes the mesmer effectively immune to conditions. MoR is a 19 condition clear on a 12 second cooldown lol... it's one of the most busted/loaded skills in the entire game.

    Both play only (double mantra -) Mesmer like 80-90% of their playtime or not? That is exactly my point. Ofc they are not near as good with other classes when they played it only 30 hours compared to like 3000+ with Mesmer

    I don't you think completely understand what I wrote. I've fought them running non-mantra builds and they're generally a lot easier to deal with on builds that can't one-shot me without any/very little animations.

    You meant only other power mesmer builds? Ok than i understood you wrong, it sounded like you mean other classes. Yes that is my experience too that most (not all) oneshot Mesmer player are not rly good at mesmer, they cannot outplay ppl, they only can oneshot out of nowhere or die themself easy.

    "playing revenant is borderline exploiting" - up condimirage 2k18

  • shadowpass.4236shadowpass.4236 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 25, 2019

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:
    @bravan.3876

    The two best mantra mesmers I know are CJ and Mur. I've fought them countless times over the years with them using different builds/classes and so far the only ones they've used that have ever really given me a tough time are their mantra mesmers.

    You have to play and predict PERFECTLY against a good one or else you'll get one-shot. There aren't any other builds in the game that come close to the amount of damage, low cooldowns, and mobility/survivability that mantra specs have access to.

    Mantra of Distraction and Mantra of Pain aren't the only offenders. Mantra of Recovery is an incredibly strong healing skill and Mantra of Resolve makes the mesmer effectively immune to conditions. MoR is a 19 condition clear on a 12 second cooldown lol... it's one of the most busted/loaded skills in the entire game.

    Both play only (double mantra -) Mesmer like 80-90% of their playtime or not? That is exactly my point. Ofc they are not near as good with other classes when they played it only 30 hours compared to like 3000+ with Mesmer

    I don't you think completely understand what I wrote. I've fought them running non-mantra builds and they're generally a lot easier to deal with on builds that can't one-shot me without any/very little animations.

    You meant only other power mesmer builds? Ok than i understood you wrong, it sounded like you mean other classes. Yes that is my experience too that most (not all) oneshot Mesmer player are not rly good at mesmer, they cannot outplay ppl, they only can oneshot out of nowhere or die themself easy.

    Yeah I've fought them running many different mesmer builds, from bunker, to power burst, to condi, etc. etc. Mur is also a pretty decent warrior and thief iirc.

    Like I said there are only 2-3 mesmers on NA that I'd consider good at power mesmer in general. It's way easier for anyone to perform at the same level with a mantra spec seeing as how you don't need much skill to one-shot a skilled player on a build/with a combo that leave little to no room for them to react.

    As Shorts himself said, most people who run the mantra builds are one-tricks who can only kill people using the blink combo. He also said that playing the mantra builds properly don't give their opponents any chance to counterplay/react to the one-shot. Which is why I said that these same players on other mesmer specs wouldn't stand a chance if they're not running busted builds. However, players like CJ and Mur (and Shorts) are able to play these builds properly, landing their bursts and being able to win extended fights.

  • bravan.3876bravan.3876 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 26, 2019

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:
    @bravan.3876

    The two best mantra mesmers I know are CJ and Mur. I've fought them countless times over the years with them using different builds/classes and so far the only ones they've used that have ever really given me a tough time are their mantra mesmers.

    You have to play and predict PERFECTLY against a good one or else you'll get one-shot. There aren't any other builds in the game that come close to the amount of damage, low cooldowns, and mobility/survivability that mantra specs have access to.

    Mantra of Distraction and Mantra of Pain aren't the only offenders. Mantra of Recovery is an incredibly strong healing skill and Mantra of Resolve makes the mesmer effectively immune to conditions. MoR is a 19 condition clear on a 12 second cooldown lol... it's one of the most busted/loaded skills in the entire game.

    Both play only (double mantra -) Mesmer like 80-90% of their playtime or not? That is exactly my point. Ofc they are not near as good with other classes when they played it only 30 hours compared to like 3000+ with Mesmer

    I don't you think completely understand what I wrote. I've fought them running non-mantra builds and they're generally a lot easier to deal with on builds that can't one-shot me without any/very little animations.

    You meant only other power mesmer builds? Ok than i understood you wrong, it sounded like you mean other classes. Yes that is my experience too that most (not all) oneshot Mesmer player are not rly good at mesmer, they cannot outplay ppl, they only can oneshot out of nowhere or die themself easy.

    Yeah I've fought them running many different mesmer builds, from bunker, to power burst, to condi, etc. etc. Mur is also a pretty decent warrior and thief iirc.

    Like I said there are only 2-3 mesmers on NA that I'd consider good at power mesmer in general. It's way easier for anyone to perform at the same level with a mantra spec seeing as how you don't need much skill to one-shot a skilled player on a build/with a combo that leave little to no room for them to react.

    Oneshot and Mantra are still not the same thing, you can play a oneshot Mesmer without any Mantra, in particular you don't need Mantra of Distraction because the stun from f3 is way better to land your burst without it being dodged. I agree that Lost Time needs to get a rework into an interrupt skill not only disable and no crit like Powerblock and Pulm. Impact. And Mantra of Pain same thing, this skill ofc makes applying dmg and oneshot burst even easier. Mantra of Distraction itself doesn't deserve the hate it gets in my opinion. Even more it is one of the most reactive and skillful skills. Also harder and more reactive than Zeromis dodge for days double distortion signet spam utilities. As long as it is a pure interrupt skill and not a lock down skill combined with hard cc/ immob and only low rewarding when random spammed (means no Lost Time).

    "playing revenant is borderline exploiting" - up condimirage 2k18

  • shadowpass.4236shadowpass.4236 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:
    @bravan.3876

    The two best mantra mesmers I know are CJ and Mur. I've fought them countless times over the years with them using different builds/classes and so far the only ones they've used that have ever really given me a tough time are their mantra mesmers.

    You have to play and predict PERFECTLY against a good one or else you'll get one-shot. There aren't any other builds in the game that come close to the amount of damage, low cooldowns, and mobility/survivability that mantra specs have access to.

    Mantra of Distraction and Mantra of Pain aren't the only offenders. Mantra of Recovery is an incredibly strong healing skill and Mantra of Resolve makes the mesmer effectively immune to conditions. MoR is a 19 condition clear on a 12 second cooldown lol... it's one of the most busted/loaded skills in the entire game.

    Both play only (double mantra -) Mesmer like 80-90% of their playtime or not? That is exactly my point. Ofc they are not near as good with other classes when they played it only 30 hours compared to like 3000+ with Mesmer

    I don't you think completely understand what I wrote. I've fought them running non-mantra builds and they're generally a lot easier to deal with on builds that can't one-shot me without any/very little animations.

    You meant only other power mesmer builds? Ok than i understood you wrong, it sounded like you mean other classes. Yes that is my experience too that most (not all) oneshot Mesmer player are not rly good at mesmer, they cannot outplay ppl, they only can oneshot out of nowhere or die themself easy.

    Yeah I've fought them running many different mesmer builds, from bunker, to power burst, to condi, etc. etc. Mur is also a pretty decent warrior and thief iirc.

    Like I said there are only 2-3 mesmers on NA that I'd consider good at power mesmer in general. It's way easier for anyone to perform at the same level with a mantra spec seeing as how you don't need much skill to one-shot a skilled player on a build/with a combo that leave little to no room for them to react.

    Oneshot and Mantra are still not the same thing, you can play a oneshot Mesmer without any Mantra, in particular you don't need Mantra of Distraction because the stun from f3 is way better to land your burst without it being dodged. I agree that Lost Time needs to get a rework into an interrupt skill not only disable and no crit like Powerblock and Pulm. Impact. And Mantra of Pain same thing, this skill ofc makes applying dmg and oneshot burst even easier. Mantra of Distraction itself doesn't deserve the hate it gets in my opinion. Even more it is one of the most reactive and skillful skills. Also harder and more reactive than Zeromis dodge for days double distortion signet spam utilities. As long as it is a pure interrupt skill and not a lock down skill combined with hard cc/ immob and only low rewarding when random spammed (means no Lost Time).

    Yeah I don't have issues with other power mesmer builds. I only think mantras are a problem. I know Zeromis' main build without the double distortion signet and even though it has one-shot potential it's requires a lot of skill to play well so I'm fine with it.

    Also, I neither agree nor disagree with your opinion on MoD. It takes skill to use properly I guess but it's still really easy to land it on key skills like someone's heal. As I've stated previously, the combination of MoD + Power Block can essentially prevent someone from using their heal indefinitely which 100% should not be a thing. Power Blocking someone's heal with a well-timed interrupt such as Mirage Thrust or teleport -> Diversion is a great. Saving a steal for the heal is great as well. However, having two 1200 range instant dazes on a 12 second cooldown that also reduces the cooldown of Diversion by nearly 50% isn't healthy for the game.

    I think putting mantras on 20 second cooldowns with an extremely short .25s cast time on the charges (or no cast time but adding an animation similar to a thief's Head Shot to prevent them from being used simultaneously with skills like gs2) would go a long way towards making them more balanced. Of course, even then, skills like Mantra of Resolve need to have their effects tuned down.

  • bravan.3876bravan.3876 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 26, 2019

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:
    @bravan.3876

    The two best mantra mesmers I know are CJ and Mur. I've fought them countless times over the years with them using different builds/classes and so far the only ones they've used that have ever really given me a tough time are their mantra mesmers.

    You have to play and predict PERFECTLY against a good one or else you'll get one-shot. There aren't any other builds in the game that come close to the amount of damage, low cooldowns, and mobility/survivability that mantra specs have access to.

    Mantra of Distraction and Mantra of Pain aren't the only offenders. Mantra of Recovery is an incredibly strong healing skill and Mantra of Resolve makes the mesmer effectively immune to conditions. MoR is a 19 condition clear on a 12 second cooldown lol... it's one of the most busted/loaded skills in the entire game.

    Both play only (double mantra -) Mesmer like 80-90% of their playtime or not? That is exactly my point. Ofc they are not near as good with other classes when they played it only 30 hours compared to like 3000+ with Mesmer

    I don't you think completely understand what I wrote. I've fought them running non-mantra builds and they're generally a lot easier to deal with on builds that can't one-shot me without any/very little animations.

    You meant only other power mesmer builds? Ok than i understood you wrong, it sounded like you mean other classes. Yes that is my experience too that most (not all) oneshot Mesmer player are not rly good at mesmer, they cannot outplay ppl, they only can oneshot out of nowhere or die themself easy.

    Yeah I've fought them running many different mesmer builds, from bunker, to power burst, to condi, etc. etc. Mur is also a pretty decent warrior and thief iirc.

    Like I said there are only 2-3 mesmers on NA that I'd consider good at power mesmer in general. It's way easier for anyone to perform at the same level with a mantra spec seeing as how you don't need much skill to one-shot a skilled player on a build/with a combo that leave little to no room for them to react.

    Oneshot and Mantra are still not the same thing, you can play a oneshot Mesmer without any Mantra, in particular you don't need Mantra of Distraction because the stun from f3 is way better to land your burst without it being dodged. I agree that Lost Time needs to get a rework into an interrupt skill not only disable and no crit like Powerblock and Pulm. Impact. And Mantra of Pain same thing, this skill ofc makes applying dmg and oneshot burst even easier. Mantra of Distraction itself doesn't deserve the hate it gets in my opinion. Even more it is one of the most reactive and skillful skills. Also harder and more reactive than Zeromis dodge for days double distortion signet spam utilities. As long as it is a pure interrupt skill and not a lock down skill combined with hard cc/ immob and only low rewarding when random spammed (means no Lost Time).

    Yeah I don't have issues with other power mesmer builds. I only think mantras are a problem. I know Zeromis' main build without the double distortion signet and even though it has one-shot potential it's requires a lot of skill to play well so I'm fine with it.

    Also, I neither agree nor disagree with your opinion on MoD. It takes skill to use properly I guess but it's still really easy to land it on key skills like someone's heal. As I've stated previously, the combination of MoD + Power Block can essentially prevent someone from using their heal indefinitely which 100% should not be a thing. Power Blocking someone's heal with a well-timed interrupt such as Mirage Thrust or teleport -> Diversion is a great. Saving a steal for the heal is great as well. However, having two 1200 range instant dazes on a 12 second cooldown that also reduces the cooldown of Diversion by nearly 50% isn't healthy for the game.

    I think putting mantras on 20 second cooldowns with an extremely short .25s cast time on the charges (or no cast time but adding an animation similar to a thief's Head Shot to prevent them from being used simultaneously with skills like gs2) would go a long way towards making them more balanced. Of course, even then, skills like Mantra of Resolve need to have their effects tuned down.

    I just wait for @viquing.8254 to stop by and tell you how hard it is to hit an interrupt on big skills on good ppl^^ I mean i think it is not that hard that it is unplayable in high ranks when you play it very well but you make it sound like the opponent just have to sit in the Mesmers face and needs to facetank every Mantra interrupt on big skills. That is actually not the case. The truth often lies in the middle (here in the middle of both your opinions). You have counterplay like disengage/ kiting out of range (having blink cd in mind), los, stabi, aegis, blinds, invuln, blocks during you can cast other stuff (Ele, Engi, Guard...), stealth and so on to cover skills you don't want to get interrupted. You also know when Mesmer just used one charge you have 4 seconds Mantra free time, or 12 secs after 2 uses, you also can bait Mantra uses by stowing bigger animations.
    I don't think any nerf on Mantra of Distraction is needed when it is only used with Powerblock. Nerfs only needed for Lost Time, CI and Mantra of Pain. No clue about the other Mantras, except for the Healmantra used in Inspiration burst builds i haven't seen them in action.

    "playing revenant is borderline exploiting" - up condimirage 2k18

  • Crab Fear.1624Crab Fear.1624 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Leave revenant alone. When they delete thief, that's all I will have left.

    Soon™ ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

  • mortrialus.3062mortrialus.3062 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @toxic.3648 said:
    1. for starters im not a mes. im holo main(maybe thats why i dont see the problem that u do, even tho u are pretty much as tanky as i am on boonbeast so go figure)
    2. everyone will have alot easier time bursting from stealth, myself included. this interraction has always been there, dosnt mean its not kitten but this is true for most dps classes with acces to stealth. u urself stated that u wont die to a mes unless u dont see him comming. so if u see him comming its literally ez mode and np right?
    3. immobed? condi clear and dodge, or use stunbreak/block/invul. on holo we got it ez tho, elixir S ftw and mes is free food.
    4. again, stunbreaks/stability exists ...
    5. ye the "top player" which brings me back to my main argument , feeling like im beating a dead horse here but wth. just because the player playing the class is godtier dosnt mean the class is broken, it just means the player is godtier

    heck instead of repeating the same kitten and getting the same responses u should look at what other ppl are saying
    looking at "bravan.3876" "Lincolnbeard.1735" "praqtos.9035" "Vague Memory.2817" .

    1. Holo is the only spec atm that has a potentially winning matchup against a mesmer in a straight up 1v1 if the mes doesn't just port away when they get low. Also, boonbeast is one of the worst meta side noder builds atm. It loses against strength spellbreaker, tools holo, and mes. It wins against weaver but that's about it. And no, I don't play boonbeast.
    2. I think you missed what I said earlier. I fought a core berserker mantra mes for more than 15 minutes in the finals of a 1v1 tournament. I saw him coming, but no, it wasn't "literally ez mode and np." They are some of the strongest dueling specs in the game simply because of how much damage/cc/mobility they have. If you mess up once against a good one, you're dead. INB4 someone says I'm fighting someone that drastically outskills me, that's not the case. The same players can play any other build in the game and won't give me as hard of a time. The only builds I'd ever lose to in a 1v1 where I'm not forced to fight on point are ones like mantras where there are NO animations for the majority of their damage and they can 100-0 me without any chance to counterplay. Also, randomly evading the instant cast charges is so stupid to do against a mantra mes with a brain. They will just time them for the end of the evade frames and you'll still end up dead.
    3. Yeah by the time you press the condi clear the mirror blade would've already hit and you would've died. Even on holo after elixir s you shouldn't be able to counter-pressure the mesmer unless they decide to stand next to you and eat damage.
    4. Stab is one of the first boons to get stripped by Shattered Concentration. If you use Elixir U preemptively to prevent the stun/daze, it can get removed by sword ambush spam, shattered concentration, mind stab, or any other ccs. A good mantra mes would easily just power block your corona burst. Now you don't have stab, you get locked down by immob/cc, and you eat the burst.
    5. Mantra mesmer is one of the easiest, most braindead specs to play. It doesn't take much thought to be able to land instant cast skills. Stick the same players who'd actually stand a chance killing me on mantra mes on any other build and their odds of winning go way down.

    This whole ordeal might actually be easier if you explain what changers you generally want to see in mesmer. We all get you think they're super super strong.

    Because if you're problem is instant cast damage? I agree with you. Damage should not be happening instantly on a philosophical level.

    If you problem is instant cast disruptions and CC like interrupts, dazes, stuns, ect. I'm going to have to disagree. Mesmer is no where near the only class with instant cast CC. Frankly counter spelling people and interrupting their skills is like one of the things that makes mesmer mesmer. Getting rid of it would be like turning Ranger Longbow into a 600 range weapon.

    The Psychomancer: Mesmer Elite Specialization Suggestion

  • Crypto.7609Crypto.7609 Member ✭✭
    edited June 26, 2019
    1. Revenants burst has no counterplay, can be done every 5 sec from behind a pillar
    2. Mesmer burst has no counterplay from stealth, but at least that can be done once 30 sec minimum, twice if elite is used

    Either nerf their dmg or make it easily telegraphed like warriors.

  • shadowpass.4236shadowpass.4236 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 26, 2019

    @mortrialus.3062 said:
    This whole ordeal might actually be easier if you explain what changers you generally want to see in mesmer. We all get you think they're super super strong.

    Because if you're problem is instant cast damage? I agree with you. Damage should not be happening instantly on a philosophical level.

    If you problem is instant cast disruptions and CC like interrupts, dazes, stuns, ect. I'm going to have to disagree. Mesmer is no where near the only class with instant cast CC. Frankly counter spelling people and interrupting their skills is like one of the things that makes mesmer mesmer. Getting rid of it would be like turning Ranger Longbow into a 600 range weapon.

    1. Mirage should not be able to dodge while hard cc'd/immobilized.
    2. Mantra charges need to function like Head Shot does for thief. So, they won't have cast times but can't be used whilst simultaneously casting other skills.
    3. Duelist's Discipline should be a 33% chance to bleed on critical hits like every other bleed-on-attack-related trait. Currently, it's 100% chance to bleed on hit, which is why Phantasmal Duelist can single-handedly apply a massive amount of bleeding. Remove the 25% flat recharge per interrupt and change it to a flat 20% cooldown reduction on pistol skills. Or, change the flat 25% recharge on interrupt to 20% of the remaining cooldown.
    4. Sharper Images should also be 33% chance to bleed on critical hits. The base bleeding duration should also be reduced to 3 seconds.
    5. Illusionary Counter should be on a 10 second cooldown (8s while traited) and the torment on trigger should be reduced to 3 stacks.
    6. Mantra cooldowns and effects need to be reworked.
      • Mantra of Recovery: 20 seconds cooldown
      • Mantra of Distraction: 24 seconds cooldown, reduce Diversion recharge time to 10 seconds after fully charging
      • Mantra of Pain: 10 seconds cooldown
      • Mantra of Resolve: 20 seconds cooldown, 3 condis removed after fully charging, 2 condis removed per charge
      • Mantra of Concentration: 30 seconds cooldown
    7. Remove the stunbreak on Elusive Mind and remove the exhaustion.

    There's also been a bug that let's a high frequency of attacks go through block skills like ranger gs4 and mesmer sc2 and s4. This issue pops up with holosmiths and mesmers more than any other class.

  • Stand The Wall.6987Stand The Wall.6987 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 26, 2019

    you shouldn't be able to get 24 might from pain mantra lol.

    oh yeah, bit of a side note, but mes axe 3 got nerfed for doing 6k. soulbeast axe 3 still does 2-3 times that. wouldn't be complete without a slb qq tidbit.

    Te lazla otstra.
    nerf list

  • mortrialus.3062mortrialus.3062 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 26, 2019

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:
    This whole ordeal might actually be easier if you explain what changers you generally want to see in mesmer. We all get you think they're super super strong.

    Because if you're problem is instant cast damage? I agree with you. Damage should not be happening instantly on a philosophical level.

    If you problem is instant cast disruptions and CC like interrupts, dazes, stuns, ect. I'm going to have to disagree. Mesmer is no where near the only class with instant cast CC. Frankly counter spelling people and interrupting their skills is like one of the things that makes mesmer mesmer. Getting rid of it would be like turning Ranger Longbow into a 600 range weapon.

    1. Duelist's Discipline should be a 33% chance to bleed on critical hits like every other bleed-on-attack-related trait. Currently, it's 100% chance to bleed on hit, which is why Phantasmal Duelist can single-handedly apply a massive amount of bleeding. Remove the 25% flat recharge per interrupt and change it to a flat 20% cooldown reduction on pistol skills. Or, change the flat 25% recharge on interrupt to 20% of the remaining cooldown.
    2. Sharper Images should also be 33% chance to bleed on critical hits. The base bleeding duration should also be reduced to 3 seconds.

    I really don't get this. Illusionary Unload on a condition build with these trait lines does 4k damage in bleeding and 1-2k in power damage on a 20 second cooldown. That's strong but not exactly breaking the bank here considering how many meta builds casually toss around 8-10k crits. Warrior GS blade trail does about as much damage on a shorter cooldown with a similar cast time and you don't even have the luxury of cleansing that.

    Like when people say stuff like this, that 6k damage mostly in condi on a 20 second cooldown needs a drastic 66% damage nerf it makes me wonder how you expect condi mirage to ever kill anything.

    The Psychomancer: Mesmer Elite Specialization Suggestion

  • shadowpass.4236shadowpass.4236 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 26, 2019

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:
    This whole ordeal might actually be easier if you explain what changers you generally want to see in mesmer. We all get you think they're super super strong.

    Because if you're problem is instant cast damage? I agree with you. Damage should not be happening instantly on a philosophical level.

    If you problem is instant cast disruptions and CC like interrupts, dazes, stuns, ect. I'm going to have to disagree. Mesmer is no where near the only class with instant cast CC. Frankly counter spelling people and interrupting their skills is like one of the things that makes mesmer mesmer. Getting rid of it would be like turning Ranger Longbow into a 600 range weapon.

    1. Duelist's Discipline should be a 33% chance to bleed on critical hits like every other bleed-on-attack-related trait. Currently, it's 100% chance to bleed on hit, which is why Phantasmal Duelist can single-handedly apply a massive amount of bleeding. Remove the 25% flat recharge per interrupt and change it to a flat 20% cooldown reduction on pistol skills. Or, change the flat 25% recharge on interrupt to 20% of the remaining cooldown.
    2. Sharper Images should also be 33% chance to bleed on critical hits. The base bleeding duration should also be reduced to 3 seconds.

    I really don't get this. Illusionary Unload on a condition build with these trait lines does 4k damage in bleeding and 1-2k in power damage on a 20 second cooldown. That's strong but not exactly breaking the bank here considering how many meta builds casually toss around 8-10k crits. Warrior GS blade trail does about as much damage on a shorter cooldown with a similar cast time and you don't even have the luxury of cleansing that.

    Like when people say stuff like this, that 6k damage mostly in condi on a 20 second cooldown needs a drastic 66% damage nerf it makes me wonder how you expect condi mirage to ever kill anything.

    Here are the other classes' bleed application traits:

    1. Bloodlust - 33% chance on crit, 3s duration
    2. Sharpshooter - 33% chance on crit, 3s duration
    3. Sharpened Edges - 33% chance on crit, 3s duration
    4. Barbed Precision - 33% chance on crit, 2.5s duration

    Now compare them to the mesmer's traits:

    1. Sharper Images - 100% chance on crit, 5s duration
    2. Duelist's Discipline - 100% chance on HIT, 3s duration

    The mesmer versions are on steroids compared to the ones the rest of the classes get. So, using only 3 weapon skills, a mesmer can stack 20 bleeds and 10 stacks of confusion in roughly 2 seconds. I thought condis were supposed to ramp up as damage over time? Apparently this doesn't apply to mesmer cause you guys can not only burst massive stacks of condis but maintain them as well.

    Bladetrail isn't even on the same level as Phantasmal Duelist. You can literally strafe every time the warrior uses it and it will never hit because the projectile is so slow. Not to mention the skill struggles to break 2k damage per hit with 25 stacks of might + max Insight.

    Condi mirage has many other ways to burst (lol)/sustain conditions. You will still be able to kill people. Either way, Sharper Images and Duelist's Discipline are both completely overtuned and should've been brought in line with similar traits a long time ago.

  • toxic.3648toxic.3648 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 26, 2019

    @shadowpass.4236 said:
    Yeah I have. The 7000 hours I've spent on this game consist nearly entirely of high tier 1v1/1vX practice/inhouses/tournaments/solo quing ranked. I've fought with/against the top players on NA for years and am friends/acquaintances with most of them including several ones on EU.

    Furthermore, I did my placements twice on EU on my alt account with 120-180 ping and placed around 1840 (top 30) during Season Nine and Ten. So I'm pretty confident when I say that the average plat 2+ players on EU are just as bad as the ones on NA. The only difference is that the amount of p2+ players are higher on EU, but the skill level is pretty much the same regardless of the rating differences between the two regions.

    i dont care what rating etc u are, the fact that u are calling for nerfs to an otherwise underperforming spec unless theres and uber player behind the wheels leave me to only 1 conclusion to this thread (discounting rev ofc, that needs to be looked at)
    which i think praqtos nailed

    @praqtos.9035 said:
    He don't want to admit if someone is simply better than him. And ofc nerf good players that kills him... He shouldnt die to good players so Anet must nerf a build they use

    Toxicity Pengu to the rescue /o/

  • shadowpass.4236shadowpass.4236 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 26, 2019

    @toxic.3648 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:
    Yeah I have. The 7000 hours I've spent on this game consist nearly entirely of high tier 1v1/1vX practice/inhouses/tournaments/solo quing ranked. I've fought with/against the top players on NA for years and am friends/acquaintances with most of them including several ones on EU.

    Furthermore, I did my placements twice on EU on my alt account with 120-180 ping and placed around 1840 (top 30) during Season Nine and Ten. So I'm pretty confident when I say that the average plat 2+ players on EU are just as bad as the ones on NA. The only difference is that the amount of p2+ players are higher on EU, but the skill level is pretty much the same regardless of the rating differences between the two regions.

    i dont care what rating etc u are, the fact that u are calling for nerfs to an otherwise underperforming spec unless theres and uber player behind the wheels leave me to only 1 conclusion to this thread (discounting rev ofc, that needs to be looked at)
    which i think praqtos nailed

    @praqtos.9035 said:
    He don't want to admit if someone is simply better than him. And ofc nerf good players that kills him... He shouldnt die to good players so Anet must nerf a build they use

    Boi read what I wrote again

    I said the two best mantra mesmers I know are CJ and Mur.

    1. I beat CJ in the finals of that 1v1 tourny.
    2. Mur only kills me maybe at the start of the match if I don't know he's on the other team and I don't see him engaging.

    I want d/d dodge spam condi thief to be nerfed too even though it's not overperforming cause it's ALSO a super braindead spec to play/fight against.

    Mantra mesmer is one of the lowest risk, highest reward builds to run in ranked. You only have a chance at dying if you miss your burst. However, if you're not a potato and can land one of the easiest combos in the game, you will kill your target 100% of the time and won't have to worry unless you're bad enough to die to someone spamming 1 in downstate. Furthermore, if you really think stealthing from halfway across the map and instagibbing someone who has no idea you're there + has no chance to react/counterplay is fine and healthy for the game then I'm kinda done responding to you. There's no point in me trying to reason with people who have severely poor/nearly nonexistent understanding of balance in this game.

    For the record, the best mesmer on NA/entire game, the player that makes content for/plays mantra mesmer almost exclusively, and myself (as well as the majority of top players on NA) share the opinion that mantras are busted, take absolutely zero skill to play, are extremely reliable/easy to land, and don't even give the other person a chance to fight back (unless your timing is garbage).

  • praqtos.9035praqtos.9035 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:
    This whole ordeal might actually be easier if you explain what changers you generally want to see in mesmer. We all get you think they're super super strong.

    Because if you're problem is instant cast damage? I agree with you. Damage should not be happening instantly on a philosophical level.

    If you problem is instant cast disruptions and CC like interrupts, dazes, stuns, ect. I'm going to have to disagree. Mesmer is no where near the only class with instant cast CC. Frankly counter spelling people and interrupting their skills is like one of the things that makes mesmer mesmer. Getting rid of it would be like turning Ranger Longbow into a 600 range weapon.

    1. Duelist's Discipline should be a 33% chance to bleed on critical hits like every other bleed-on-attack-related trait. Currently, it's 100% chance to bleed on hit, which is why Phantasmal Duelist can single-handedly apply a massive amount of bleeding. Remove the 25% flat recharge per interrupt and change it to a flat 20% cooldown reduction on pistol skills. Or, change the flat 25% recharge on interrupt to 20% of the remaining cooldown.
    2. Sharper Images should also be 33% chance to bleed on critical hits. The base bleeding duration should also be reduced to 3 seconds.

    I really don't get this. Illusionary Unload on a condition build with these trait lines does 4k damage in bleeding and 1-2k in power damage on a 20 second cooldown. That's strong but not exactly breaking the bank here considering how many meta builds casually toss around 8-10k crits. Warrior GS blade trail does about as much damage on a shorter cooldown with a similar cast time and you don't even have the luxury of cleansing that.

    Like when people say stuff like this, that 6k damage mostly in condi on a 20 second cooldown needs a drastic 66% damage nerf it makes me wonder how you expect condi mirage to ever kill anything.

    Here are the other classes' bleed application traits:

    1. Bloodlust - 33% chance on crit, 3s duration
    2. Sharpshooter - 33% chance on crit, 3s duration
    3. Sharpened Edges - 33% chance on crit, 3s duration
    4. Barbed Precision - 33% chance on crit, 2.5s duration

    Now compare them to the mesmer's traits:

    1. Sharper Images - 100% chance on crit, 5s duration
    2. Duelist's Discipline - 100% chance on HIT, 3s duration

    The mesmer versions are on steroids compared to the ones the rest of the classes get. So, using only 3 weapon skills, a mesmer can stack 20 bleeds and 10 stacks of confusion in roughly 2 seconds. I thought condis were supposed to ramp up as damage over time? Apparently this doesn't apply to mesmer cause you guys can not only burst massive stacks of condis but maintain them as well.

    Bladetrail isn't even on the same level as Phantasmal Duelist. You can literally strafe every time the warrior uses it and it will never hit because the projectile is so slow. Not to mention the skill struggles to break 2k damage per hit with 25 stacks of might + max Insight.

    Condi mirage has many other ways to burst (lol)/sustain conditions. You will still be able to kill people. Either way, Sharper Images and Duelist's Discipline are both completely overtuned and should've been brought in line with similar traits a long time ago.

    Yeah, should been brought in the line, you know what else should? Blurred Frenzy, Jaunt, Fencer's Finesse, Critical Infusion, Mirage Mantle, to name a few. (and I mean buffs, gigantic ones to be on par with similar skills and traits)

    Not to mention how all of these classes different and they hold all damage at their own, not tied to a resource that has 2400 hp that being killed with single auto attack.
    This "genius,brainiac and whatnot" dont understand that mesmer damage being split between phantasms/clones and rely on them,which is obvious. Give all damage to mesmer himself and let him spam as much condis as scouge do(while operating strongest conditions in the game) without need to summon horde of clones and spec into mirage and we have a deal.
    Suddenly OP demand all-nerfing of everything that mesmer has .. :joy:
    tldr: nerf class that kills me

  • bravan.3876bravan.3876 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 26, 2019

    It really feels for me this discussion leads to nowhere. Neither ppl like @viquing.8254 nor the other extreme like @shadowpass.4236 can be convinced with tons of arguments to change their extreme and biased opinions at least a bit into the middle where truth often lies. As a not mesmer main multiclass player i agree with some nerf requests because they are logically low effort high rewards skills or traits (CI, Lost Time, Mantra of Pain) and hold powercreep higher than needed for a burstclasss (also after nerfs mesmers can still burst with condis what is a big design mistake for condis in the first place and in general not only on mesmer) and the skillfloor and -ceiling lower than it should be for a class with that high active outplay potential.
    Some skills like the barely used condiclean and stability Mantra and Healmantra i said i don't know good enough to make an opinion and for Mantra of Distraction i described why it is one of the most skilled and reacive utility for mesmer and for that even has the most ways of counterplay. I don't think any nerf is needed here. As an usual opponent of Mesmerplayers (good and bad ones) i don't mind to fight a mesmer only using Mantra of Distraction when it is only combined with Powerblock at all no matter on what class i play. I think NA's biased opinion about that Mantra is not up to date aynmore, still only the result from the time where it had a stun included. And now maybe based on Lost Time synergy what turns it into a brainless spammable dmg skill. Otherwise tell me how for example Signet of Midnight, what is just another out of jail card after failing your positioning, dodge or movement with adding another stealth and stunbreak needs more skill than a reactive interrupt skill? Powermesmer also is a class relying a lot on comboing stuff, adding an animation or casttime will make it clunky or even completely unviable for an reactive interrupt playstyle on Powermesmer. Spammy builds not comboing that much like Staff Chaos Interrupt would be the builds not affected by this. Means that would only hurt Powerbuilds where it is not broken anyway.
    We could talk about the cds. But start maybe with 15 secs instead 12, you have to consider that Mantras have an uptime of a very vulnerable recharge a glassbuild needs to cover to not get easy killed by 2 autoattacks from metabuilds during that. Because of these opportunity costs Mantras have a lower cd on recharging. 20+secs cd is too long i think. They can lower the cd refreshment from Mantra on f3, i agree to that.

    Start with using the correct definition: A mesmer based on only Mantra of Distraction as an interrupt tool is not a Mantramesmer it is an Interruptmesmer. Mantramesmers have at least 2 Mantras used and they relying on more or less brainless Mantraspam either for dmg (Lost Time and Mantra of Pain) or/and heal (when using Inspiration traitline and often with 3 Mantras used). In this correct terminology a Mantra(Spam) Mesmer (mostly oneshot) is indeed very easy and noobfriendly during an Interruptmesmer (with Mantra of Distraction/ Powerblock only) is one of the hardest to play, most reactive/ interactive and balanced Powermesmerplaystyle.

    "playing revenant is borderline exploiting" - up condimirage 2k18

  • AngelLovesFredrik.6741AngelLovesFredrik.6741 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 26, 2019

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    @AngelLovesFredrik.6741 said:

    @Heartpains.7312 said:

    @AngelLovesFredrik.6741 said:
    Dueling illusion is stronger than domination anyway, double mind wrack and quickness is too valuable. I do agree with lost time getting the glacial hammer / shattered aegis / smiters boon treatment.

    Talking about Mirage or?
    If mirage this is not correct for sure in wvw at least

    Yes, I'm talking about mirage from a PvP perspective.

    You are pretty questionable mesmer expert :joy:

    As you can see in https://twitch.tv/lardoo112/clip/SquareNeighborlyDolphinGrammarKing?filter=clips&range=all&sort=time this clip, the illusion build 1v2s Herald + S/D core thief. This is against Pain + Torben, two VERY good players on their respective classes. This could not have been done on Domination.

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    @AngelLovesFredrik.6741 said:
    Dueling illusion is stronger than domination anyway, double mind wrack and quickness is too valuable. I do agree with lost time getting the glacial hammer / shattered aegis / smiters boon treatment.

    Everything you mentioned is nothing alike.
    I alrdy said that if you want to nerf lost time then lightning rod should be nerfed as well. Two similar traits with an exception lrod hit twice as much. If they do then compensate its loss(both traits)
    Imagine complain about full zerk mesmer when mesmer viability depends on chaos interruption... Nerf threads soon tm

    Guard got no compensation.

    Ok, what guardian had to do with your comment then ?

    In my original post, I refered to Glacial Hammer and Shattered Aegis. Both of which are Guardian traits.
    Glacial Heart: The base damage of this trait has been reduced by 50%, and it can no longer critically hit.
    Shattered Aegis: The damage of this trait has been increased by 20% in PvE only. This trait can no longer critically hit.
    Chill of Death: The damage of this trait has been increased by 20% in PvE, and it will no longer be able to critically hit foes.
    Chilling Nova: The damage of this trait has been increased by 25% in PvE, and it will no longer be able to critically hit foes.
    Lost Time: Its base strike damage has been reduced by 50%, but its critical-hit damage has been increased by 100%.

    Do you see the odd one out? and yes, Lightning Rod is also an odd one out. But the above all happened in the very same patch (Dec 11) which made it funny.

    Lost time still has a very strong slow tied to it.

    Lrod does nothing except doubled damage? Do you need my help how to use google now ? Are you?

    I know Lightning Rod has weakness tied to it. I was comparing it to Guardian procs, as I had in my previous post. Assuming I compared it to something I had never mentioned is just trying to de-value my post.

    ~ God Tier Guardian

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