Nerf Mantra Mesmers and Revenants - Page 6 — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Nerf Mantra Mesmers and Revenants

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  • praqtos.9035praqtos.9035 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 26, 2019

    @AngelLovesFredrik.6741 said:

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    @AngelLovesFredrik.6741 said:

    @Heartpains.7312 said:

    @AngelLovesFredrik.6741 said:
    Dueling illusion is stronger than domination anyway, double mind wrack and quickness is too valuable. I do agree with lost time getting the glacial hammer / shattered aegis / smiters boon treatment.

    Talking about Mirage or?
    If mirage this is not correct for sure in wvw at least

    Yes, I'm talking about mirage from a PvP perspective.

    You are pretty questionable mesmer expert :joy:

    As you can see in https://twitch.tv/lardoo112/clip/SquareNeighborlyDolphinGrammarKing?filter=clips&range=all&sort=time this clip, the illusion build 1v2s Herald + S/D core thief. This is against Pain + Torben, two VERY good players on their respective classes. This could not have been done on Domination.

    Oh, this guy who came to plus 1 me when I was berserk chrono and he died 1x2 (no gwell,no chaos interrupt,he just facetanked mirrorblade burst right into his face without me going into stealth)... Such a good player /s. Surprisingly he doesnt know how to fight against a mesmer and felt like he is rather weak than good. He was really good long ago but now he is just another boosted revenant.
    Emm... have you seen the date of that clip? 6 months ago? Have you any idea how memser changed since then? Couldnt you find something even older?

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    @AngelLovesFredrik.6741 said:
    Dueling illusion is stronger than domination anyway, double mind wrack and quickness is too valuable. I do agree with lost time getting the glacial hammer / shattered aegis / smiters boon treatment.

    Everything you mentioned is nothing alike.
    I alrdy said that if you want to nerf lost time then lightning rod should be nerfed as well. Two similar traits with an exception lrod hit twice as much. If they do then compensate its loss(both traits)
    Imagine complain about full zerk mesmer when mesmer viability depends on chaos interruption... Nerf threads soon tm

    Guard got no compensation.

    Ok, what guardian had to do with your comment then ?

    In my original post, I refered to Glacial Hammer and Shattered Aegis. Both of which are Guardian traits.
    Glacial Heart: The base damage of this trait has been reduced by 50%, and it can no longer critically hit.
    Shattered Aegis: The damage of this trait has been increased by 20% in PvE only. This trait can no longer critically hit.
    Chill of Death: The damage of this trait has been increased by 20% in PvE, and it will no longer be able to critically hit foes.
    Chilling Nova: The damage of this trait has been increased by 25% in PvE, and it will no longer be able to critically hit foes.
    Lost Time: Its base strike damage has been reduced by 50%, but its critical-hit damage has been increased by 100%.

    Lost time was a dead trait, thanks for a rework, I guess?
    Guardian took a hit because they didnt want to nerf 50% crit chance trait(like they did with a chronophantasma and nerfed everything but not this trait).
    The rest is passive auto proc without player input. I remember two necromancers oneshotted you as soon as you reached 50% health. Reaper was heavily boosted since then.
    Shattered aeigs: they probably decided to nerf another passive auto proc damage source(as you can get aegis from your allies,especially firebrand) despite it was in unviable for pvp traitline.

    Do you see the odd one out? and yes, Lightning Rod is also an odd one out. But the above all happened in the very same patch (Dec 11) which made it funny.

    Dont you forgot to mention something else? I would gladly send you to google again but fine:
    Power Block: The damage of this skill has been increased by 20% so that it now matches its tooltip. This trait can no longer critically hit foes.
    ^And into addition they broke it and it doesnt apply damage/weakness on every interrupt but 3 seconds icd as it is PvE.
    Nerfing to the ground an interrupt trait and make it less rewarding than just landing a CC, thats really odd to me.

    Lost time still has a very strong slow tied to it.

    Lrod does nothing except doubled damage? Do you need my help how to use google now ? Are you?

    I know Lightning Rod has weakness tied to it. I was comparing it to Guardian procs, as I had in my previous post. Assuming I compared it to something I had never mentioned is just trying to de-value my post.

    I thought you compare it to LR and didnt know about weakness, rip.
    Sadly, your post have no value as you compare apples and oranges

  • @praqtos.9035 said:

    @AngelLovesFredrik.6741 said:

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    @AngelLovesFredrik.6741 said:

    @Heartpains.7312 said:

    @AngelLovesFredrik.6741 said:
    Dueling illusion is stronger than domination anyway, double mind wrack and quickness is too valuable. I do agree with lost time getting the glacial hammer / shattered aegis / smiters boon treatment.

    Talking about Mirage or?
    If mirage this is not correct for sure in wvw at least

    Yes, I'm talking about mirage from a PvP perspective.

    You are pretty questionable mesmer expert :joy:

    As you can see in https://twitch.tv/lardoo112/clip/SquareNeighborlyDolphinGrammarKing?filter=clips&range=all&sort=time this clip, the illusion build 1v2s Herald + S/D core thief. This is against Pain + Torben, two VERY good players on their respective classes. This could not have been done on Domination.

    Oh, this guy who came to plus 1 me when I was berserk chrono and he died 1x2 (no gwell,no chaos interrupt,he just facetanked mirrorblade burst right into his face without me going into stealth)... Such a good player /s. Surprisingly he doesnt know how to fight against a mesmer and felt like he is rather weak than good. He was really good long ago but now he is just another boosted revenant.
    Emm... have you seen the date of that clip? 6 months ago? Have you any idea how memser changed since then? Couldnt you find something even older?

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    @AngelLovesFredrik.6741 said:
    Dueling illusion is stronger than domination anyway, double mind wrack and quickness is too valuable. I do agree with lost time getting the glacial hammer / shattered aegis / smiters boon treatment.

    Everything you mentioned is nothing alike.
    I alrdy said that if you want to nerf lost time then lightning rod should be nerfed as well. Two similar traits with an exception lrod hit twice as much. If they do then compensate its loss(both traits)
    Imagine complain about full zerk mesmer when mesmer viability depends on chaos interruption... Nerf threads soon tm

    Guard got no compensation.

    Ok, what guardian had to do with your comment then ?

    In my original post, I refered to Glacial Hammer and Shattered Aegis. Both of which are Guardian traits.
    Glacial Heart: The base damage of this trait has been reduced by 50%, and it can no longer critically hit.
    Shattered Aegis: The damage of this trait has been increased by 20% in PvE only. This trait can no longer critically hit.
    Chill of Death: The damage of this trait has been increased by 20% in PvE, and it will no longer be able to critically hit foes.
    Chilling Nova: The damage of this trait has been increased by 25% in PvE, and it will no longer be able to critically hit foes.
    Lost Time: Its base strike damage has been reduced by 50%, but its critical-hit damage has been increased by 100%.

    Lost time was a dead trait, thanks for a rework, I guess?
    Guardian took a hit because they didnt want to nerf 50% crit chance trait(like they did with a chronophantasma and nerfed everything but not this trait).
    The rest is passive auto proc without player input. I remember two necromancers oneshotted you as soon as you reached 50% health. Reaper was heavily boosted since then.
    Shattered aeigs: they probably decided to nerf another passive auto proc damage source(as you can get aegis from your allies,especially firebrand) despite it was in unviable for pvp traitline.

    Do you see the odd one out? and yes, Lightning Rod is also an odd one out. But the above all happened in the very same patch (Dec 11) which made it funny.

    Dont you forgot to mention something else? I would gladly send you to google again but fine:
    Power Block: The damage of this skill has been increased by 20% so that it now matches its tooltip. This trait can no longer critically hit foes.
    ^And into addition they broke it and it doesnt apply damage/weakness on every interrupt but 3 seconds icd as it is PvE.
    Nerfing to the ground an interrupt trait and make it less rewarding than just landing a CC, thats really odd to me.

    Lost time still has a very strong slow tied to it.

    Lrod does nothing except doubled damage? Do you need my help how to use google now ? Are you?

    I know Lightning Rod has weakness tied to it. I was comparing it to Guardian procs, as I had in my previous post. Assuming I compared it to something I had never mentioned is just trying to de-value my post.

    I thought you compare it to LR and didnt know about weakness, rip.
    Sadly, your post have no value as you compare apples and oranges

    Comparing Apples to Oranges is what everyone is doing on this forum. "Engi stealth to high, mesmer stealth is only 3 seconds" Thats the same type of comparison.
    S/D thief in particular has also been toned down alongside Power Mesmer. This clip was still with 6 second exhaust from EM however. Also, saying either Pain or Torben is a weak player kind of proves that you have no clue of what you're talking about.
    I get that you're a mesmer main, I get that you want your spec to be good. I get that.

    Mesmer currently has arguably the strongest 1v1 build, or well among the highest tiers. As seen in the EU mAT where Ritu literally farmed every other duelist on the sides. But spreading false information and de-valuing other peoples opinions in a public forum is not the right way to go about things. As I see no value in arguing with someone so ignorant and so hell-bent that he's playing a bad spec I'm going to stop responding to you now.
    Just remember that there are always two sides of a coin.

    ~ God Tier Guardian

  • praqtos.9035praqtos.9035 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 26, 2019

    @AngelLovesFredrik.6741 said:

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    @AngelLovesFredrik.6741 said:

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    @AngelLovesFredrik.6741 said:

    @Heartpains.7312 said:

    @AngelLovesFredrik.6741 said:
    Dueling illusion is stronger than domination anyway, double mind wrack and quickness is too valuable. I do agree with lost time getting the glacial hammer / shattered aegis / smiters boon treatment.

    Talking about Mirage or?
    If mirage this is not correct for sure in wvw at least

    Yes, I'm talking about mirage from a PvP perspective.

    You are pretty questionable mesmer expert :joy:

    As you can see in https://twitch.tv/lardoo112/clip/SquareNeighborlyDolphinGrammarKing?filter=clips&range=all&sort=time this clip, the illusion build 1v2s Herald + S/D core thief. This is against Pain + Torben, two VERY good players on their respective classes. This could not have been done on Domination.

    Oh, this guy who came to plus 1 me when I was berserk chrono and he died 1x2 (no gwell,no chaos interrupt,he just facetanked mirrorblade burst right into his face without me going into stealth)... Such a good player /s. Surprisingly he doesnt know how to fight against a mesmer and felt like he is rather weak than good. He was really good long ago but now he is just another boosted revenant.
    Emm... have you seen the date of that clip? 6 months ago? Have you any idea how memser changed since then? Couldnt you find something even older?

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    @AngelLovesFredrik.6741 said:
    Dueling illusion is stronger than domination anyway, double mind wrack and quickness is too valuable. I do agree with lost time getting the glacial hammer / shattered aegis / smiters boon treatment.

    Everything you mentioned is nothing alike.
    I alrdy said that if you want to nerf lost time then lightning rod should be nerfed as well. Two similar traits with an exception lrod hit twice as much. If they do then compensate its loss(both traits)
    Imagine complain about full zerk mesmer when mesmer viability depends on chaos interruption... Nerf threads soon tm

    Guard got no compensation.

    Ok, what guardian had to do with your comment then ?

    In my original post, I refered to Glacial Hammer and Shattered Aegis. Both of which are Guardian traits.
    Glacial Heart: The base damage of this trait has been reduced by 50%, and it can no longer critically hit.
    Shattered Aegis: The damage of this trait has been increased by 20% in PvE only. This trait can no longer critically hit.
    Chill of Death: The damage of this trait has been increased by 20% in PvE, and it will no longer be able to critically hit foes.
    Chilling Nova: The damage of this trait has been increased by 25% in PvE, and it will no longer be able to critically hit foes.
    Lost Time: Its base strike damage has been reduced by 50%, but its critical-hit damage has been increased by 100%.

    Lost time was a dead trait, thanks for a rework, I guess?
    Guardian took a hit because they didnt want to nerf 50% crit chance trait(like they did with a chronophantasma and nerfed everything but not this trait).
    The rest is passive auto proc without player input. I remember two necromancers oneshotted you as soon as you reached 50% health. Reaper was heavily boosted since then.
    Shattered aeigs: they probably decided to nerf another passive auto proc damage source(as you can get aegis from your allies,especially firebrand) despite it was in unviable for pvp traitline.

    Do you see the odd one out? and yes, Lightning Rod is also an odd one out. But the above all happened in the very same patch (Dec 11) which made it funny.

    Dont you forgot to mention something else? I would gladly send you to google again but fine:
    Power Block: The damage of this skill has been increased by 20% so that it now matches its tooltip. This trait can no longer critically hit foes.
    ^And into addition they broke it and it doesnt apply damage/weakness on every interrupt but 3 seconds icd as it is PvE.
    Nerfing to the ground an interrupt trait and make it less rewarding than just landing a CC, thats really odd to me.

    Lost time still has a very strong slow tied to it.

    Lrod does nothing except doubled damage? Do you need my help how to use google now ? Are you?

    I know Lightning Rod has weakness tied to it. I was comparing it to Guardian procs, as I had in my previous post. Assuming I compared it to something I had never mentioned is just trying to de-value my post.

    I thought you compare it to LR and didnt know about weakness, rip.
    Sadly, your post have no value as you compare apples and oranges

    Comparing Apples to Oranges is what everyone is doing on this forum. "Engi stealth to high, mesmer stealth is only 3 seconds" Thats the same type of comparison.

    As you mean its being compared to other party stealth utlities and toolbelt on x2 less cooldown are nothing alike?

    S/D thief in particular has also been toned down alongside Power Mesmer. This clip was still with 6 second exhaust from EM however. Also, saying either Pain or Torben is a weak player kind of proves that you have no clue of what you're talking about.

    No clue about what? That he is bad at this MU? Why would he die while outnumbering me then ? :joy:

    I get that you're a mesmer main, I get that you want your spec to be good. I get that.

    From your every post: you want mesmer to get nerfed because guardian was nerfed, rofl.

    Mesmer currently has arguably the strongest 1v1 build, or well among the highest tiers. As seen in the EU mAT where Ritu literally farmed every other duelist on the sides.

    Condi mirage + chaotic interruption which isnt discussed in this thread, why you even talking about it? I legit dont understand why you even post ANYTHING when you dont know what is thread about ?????????
    Chaos interruption in any build is a noob carry trait and carry bad players, especially with condi mirage or chrono bunker.

    But spreading false information and de-valuing other peoples opinions in a public forum is not the right way to go about things.

    What? Just what?
    You literally compare completely different things and demand it to be nerfed just because guardian was nerfed. LOL.
    Its like I would complain sword has a melee range and rifle is 1200+ and its not fair and range should be the same.
    What false information? You mean is that what you did when you posted a clip from december of 2018?

    As I see no value in arguing with someone so ignorant and so hell-bent that he's playing a bad spec I'm going to stop responding to you now.
    Just remember that there are always two sides of a coin

    Ignorance its when you have no clue about the class and post 6 months old clip and think its a solid proof, 100% all best/good mesmers playing domination because they dont know there is a better traitline to replace it! Come to a thread without knowing what its about, throw random "pls nerf it because my main is nerfed"

  • viquing.8254viquing.8254 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 26, 2019

    Rofl the amount of post to answer in 24H...

    @bravan.3876 said:

    It's a MONTAGE ROFL.
    If I make a vid playing inspiration focus trait while owning top player 2% of time but just showing theses moments, you will ask to nerf focus trait ? (or find it fine/balanced and so on ?)
    Continue dreaming about the possibility of play like the best moment during a montage if you want but don't use it as proof please.
    And I'm not even sure he ending top 100.

    Again, how about you just ask him? Instead contradicting every argument i have without even knowing anything? Also montage or not the footage is not that cherry picked considered how much you can see from several matches. And when you are able to read gameplay you can see how skilled someone is. But as said just ask him, from what i have seen on shown rating it was what i said. I always agreed that you need kind of exceptional skill lvl to make that build work like he does, that it is not a build for the masses. My balance suggestions are also not based on footage from other players, they are based on my own experiences as mulitclass player, my game knowledge and just logical thinking.
    You know i love to discuss with you but i am also sure you could collect footage from a year and make a 10 mins video with highlights from it and i still could see that your skill lvl isn't any near to all the top lvl player in this game (the few still active and all the top player already left), no matter what class.

    Hmm so :
    1) how about you ask him ? Because I already did it.
    2) Who is contradicting every argument I have with a : "1 player on the entire game did it on a montage."
    3) What my skill level have to do here ? Btw I face every day leg to plat3 players so even If I'm the worst mesmer here, it seems there is worst.

    I agree that Lost Time needs to get a rework into an interrupt skill not only disable

    I didn't agree as long as I didn't see this trait in high level. And for a GM it's way less "passive" than most other class who can do the same damage in aoe with classic rotation.

    @shadowpass.4236 said :
    Also, I neither agree nor disagree with your opinion on MoD. It takes skill to use properly I guess but it's still really easy to land it on key skills like someone's heal.
    @bravan.3876 said :
    I just wait for @viquing.8254 to stop

    Here I am : player who use keyskill with no security are bad. Particulary on heal. Watch stream, 80% of top players at least LoS during heal cast.

    Saving a steal for the heal is great as well. However, having two 1200 range instant dazes on a 12 second cooldown that also reduces the cooldown of Diversion by nearly 50% isn't healthy for the game.

    Steal is a 1200 range instant interrupt with other kisscool effects who is fine but no MoD ?

    @bravan.3876 said :
    The truth often lies in the middle (here in the middle of both your opinions).

    Yeah, you are the white sheep, we are devils extremists. Thanks for the thread manipulation try.
    I trust what I see and for the moment I never see a mesmer using power block in plat3/leg MU since ... very long time.
    And key skill like FB rez signet will always be covered if you didn't put come CC pressure before.
    And

    It really feels for me this discussion leads to nowhere. Neither ppl like @viquing.8254 nor the other extreme like @shadowpass.4236 can be convinced with tons of arguments to change their extreme and biased opinions at least a bit into the middle where truth often lies.

    Come on, it's you who can't be conviced with the tons of arguments whil having only 1 player who did a montage with a build "for fun" (<= his words) as argumentation.
    Stop making sentence like if you know everything please and encapsulate thoses who disagree on "extremists" side while sitting you as the good guy on the middle side, we aren't in politics.

    You have counterplay like disengage/ kiting out of range (having blink cd in mind), los, stabi, aegis, blinds, invuln, blocks during you can cast other stuff (Ele, Engi, Guard...), stealth and so on to cover skills you don't want to get interrupted. You also know when Mesmer just used one charge you have 4 seconds Mantra free time, or 12 secs after 2 uses, you also can bait Mantra uses by stowing bigger animations.

    Totally agree.

    @shadowpass.4236 said:
    1. Mirage should not be able to dodge while hard cc'd/immobilized.

    Yeah, rev shouldn't be able to jiro breakstunt while hard cc'd/immobilize, thief should teleport/condiclear while immobilized, holo shouldn't be under 80% stab uptime on certains builds, most professions shouldn't have better vigor uptime than mesmers etc etc.

    1. Mantra charges need to function like Head Shot does for thief. So, they won't have cast times but can't be used whilst simultaneously casting other skills.

    The concept on mantra is strong instant effect with hudge casttime counter part.

    1. Duelist's Discipline should be a 33% chance to bleed on critical hits like every other bleed-on-attack-related trait. Currently, it's 100% chance to bleed on hit, which is why Phantasmal Duelist can single-handedly apply a massive amount of bleeding. Remove the 25% flat recharge per interrupt and change it to a flat 20% cooldown reduction on pistol skills. Or, change the flat 25% recharge on interrupt to 20% of the remaining cooldown.
    2. Sharper Images should also be 33% chance to bleed on critical hits. The base bleeding duration should also be reduced to 3 seconds.
      Here are the other classes' bleed application traits:

    3. Bloodlust - 33% chance on crit, 3s duration

    4. Sharpshooter - 33% chance on crit, 3s duration
    5. Sharpened Edges - 33% chance on crit, 3s duration
    6. Barbed Precision - 33% chance on crit, 2.5s duration
      Now compare them to the mesmer's traits:
    7. Sharper Images - 100% chance on crit, 5s duration
    8. Duelist's Discipline - 100% chance on HIT, 3s duration

    Yeah, nice try so :
    Pistol duellist and sword MH should apply condition baseline like most other class weapon (You know the zerk gard and holo who make first damage burn during a fight for example or dps thief with passive poison application etc.).
    And check the @mortrialus.3062 calculation to get an idea of how op (or not) certains bursts are.

    1. Illusionary Counter should be on a 10 second cooldown (8s while traited) and the torment on trigger should be reduced to 3 stacks.

    Buff drasticly the auto then because scepter general output is really low.

    1. Mantra cooldowns and effects need to be reworked.
      • Mantra of Recovery: 20 seconds cooldown
      • Mantra of Concentration: 30 seconds cooldown

    Actually never used...

    • Mantra of Distraction: 24 seconds cooldown, reduce Diversion recharge time to 10 seconds after fully charging

    People will just switch back to no lock builds, didn't care.

    • Mantra of Pain: 10 seconds cooldown

    Didn't mind.

    • Mantra of Resolve: 20 seconds cooldown, 3 condis removed after fully charging, 2 condis removed per charge

    Rarely used ...

    1. Remove the stunbreak on Elusive Mind and remove the exhaustion.

    Agree it's better to just have a condiclear trait.

    @mortrialus.3062 said:
    The condition damage aspect ignores toughness

    Actually toughness isn't really usefull even against direct damage build :p

    @AngelLovesFredrik.6741 said:
    As you can see in https://twitch.tv/lardoo112/clip/SquareNeighborlyDolphinGrammarKing?filter=clips&range=all&sort=time this clip, the illusion build 1v2s Herald + S/D core thief. This is against Pain + Torben, two VERY good players on their respective classes. This could not have been done on Domination.
    @AngelLovesFredrik.6741 said:
    Mesmer currently has arguably the strongest 1v1 build, or well among the highest tiers. As seen in the EU mAT where Ritu literally farmed every other duelist on the sides.

    Yeah so for the explanation : players just didn't get used to see lock mesmers and didn't build against it.
    I can ensure you that once they wake up, it will have the same utility as it has thoses past years.
    For example take a scrapper with some reflects (and regular stab). He will easy perma cap the point as the build in mAt use 80% projectile attacks to put pressure.
    Take a SB with and adapted build (more condiclear, reflects on block.) same results. etc.
    The only thing that make ritu carry his team in the mAt is the ennemy team thinking they can kill a defensive lock build so they lose time Xv1 ing him. (ofc he play well but there weren't some counter build in front.)
    Can't wait for suiss tournament to highlight the adaptations between matchs.

    @praqtos.9035 said :
    Chaos interruption in any build is a noob carry trait and carry bad players, especially with condi mirage or chrono bunker.

    Or it's just that in this no-condi meta, nobody run condiclear anymore (or very few) so immobilize and condi builds can get some use.
    During condi meta, immobilize someone more than 1 sec never happened.

  • praqtos.9035praqtos.9035 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 26, 2019

    @viquing.8254 said:

    @praqtos.9035 said :
    Chaos interruption in any build is a noob carry trait and carry bad players, especially with condi mirage or chrono bunker.

    Or it's just that in this no-condi meta, nobody run condiclear anymore (or very few) so immobilize and condi builds can get some use.
    During condi meta, immobilize someone more than 1 sec never happened.

    Even brain damaged people can successfuly play this two builds. I wouldnt care less if they delete it entirely so noobs cant just spam interrupts to lock you in place for eternity.
    The same goes for improvisation, daggerstorm,unblockable warrior dodge,rampage and the list goes on.

  • bravan.3876bravan.3876 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 26, 2019

    @viquing.8254 said:
    Rofl the amount of post to answer in 24H...

    @bravan.3876 said:

    It's a MONTAGE ROFL.
    If I make a vid playing inspiration focus trait while owning top player 2% of time but just showing theses moments, you will ask to nerf focus trait ? (or find it fine/balanced and so on ?)
    Continue dreaming about the possibility of play like the best moment during a montage if you want but don't use it as proof please.
    And I'm not even sure he ending top 100.

    Again, how about you just ask him? Instead contradicting every argument i have without even knowing anything? Also montage or not the footage is not that cherry picked considered how much you can see from several matches. And when you are able to read gameplay you can see how skilled someone is. But as said just ask him, from what i have seen on shown rating it was what i said. I always agreed that you need kind of exceptional skill lvl to make that build work like he does, that it is not a build for the masses. My balance suggestions are also not based on footage from other players, they are based on my own experiences as mulitclass player, my game knowledge and just logical thinking.
    You know i love to discuss with you but i am also sure you could collect footage from a year and make a 10 mins video with highlights from it and i still could see that your skill lvl isn't any near to all the top lvl player in this game (the few still active and all the top player already left), no matter what class.

    Hmm so :
    1) how about you ask him ? Because I already did it.
    2) Who is contradicting every argument I have with a : "1 player on the entire game did it on a montage."
    3) What my skill level have to do here ? Btw I face every day leg to plat3 players so even If I'm the worst mesmer here, it seems there is worst.

    I agree that Lost Time needs to get a rework into an interrupt skill not only disable

    I didn't agree as long as I didn't see this trait in high level. And for a GM it's way less "passive" than most other class who can do the same damage in aoe with classic rotation.

    @shadowpass.4236 said :
    Also, I neither agree nor disagree with your opinion on MoD. It takes skill to use properly I guess but it's still really easy to land it on key skills like someone's heal.
    @bravan.3876 said :
    I just wait for @viquing.8254 to stop

    Here I am : player who use keyskill with no security are bad. Particulary on heal. Watch stream, 80% of top players at last LoS during heal cast.

    Saving a steal for the heal is great as well. However, having two 1200 range instant dazes on a 12 second cooldown that also reduces the cooldown of Diversion by nearly 50% isn't healthy for the game.

    Steal is a 1200 range instant interrupt with other kisscool effects who is fine but no MoD ?

    @bravan.3876 said :
    The truth often lies in the middle (here in the middle of both your opinions). You have counterplay like disengage/ kiting out of range (having blink cd in mind), los, stabi, aegis, blinds, invuln, blocks during you can cast other stuff (Ele, Engi, Guard...), stealth and so on to cover skills you don't want to get interrupted. You also know when Mesmer just used one charge you have 4 seconds Mantra free time, or 12 secs after 2 uses, you also can bait Mantra uses by stowing bigger animations.

    Yeah, you are the white sheep, we are devils extremists. Thanks for the thread manipulation try.
    I trust what I see and for the moment I never see a mesmer using power block in plat3/leg MU since ... very long time.
    And key skill like FB rez signet will always be covered if you didn't put come CC pressure before.
    And

    It really feels for me this discussion leads to nowhere. Neither ppl like @viquing.8254 nor the other extreme like @shadowpass.4236 can be convinced with tons of arguments to change their extreme and biased opinions at least a bit into the middle where truth often lies.

    Come on, it's you who can't be conviced with the tons of arguments whil having only 1 player who did a montage with a build "for fun" (<= his words) as argumentation.
    Stop making sentence like if you know everything please and encapsulate thoses who disagree on "extremists" side while sitting you as the good guy on the middle side, we aren't in politics.

    @shadowpass.4236 said:
    1. Mirage should not be able to dodge while hard cc'd/immobilized.

    Yeah, rev shouldn't be able to jiro breakstunt while hard cc'd/immobilize, thief should teleport/condiclear while immobilized, holo shouldn't be under 80% stab uptime on certains builds, most professions shouldn't have better vigor uptime than mesmers etc etc.

    1. Mantra charges need to function like Head Shot does for thief. So, they won't have cast times but can't be used whilst simultaneously casting other skills.

    The concept on mantra are strong instant effect with hudge casttime counter part.

    1. Duelist's Discipline should be a 33% chance to bleed on critical hits like every other bleed-on-attack-related trait. Currently, it's 100% chance to bleed on hit, which is why Phantasmal Duelist can single-handedly apply a massive amount of bleeding. Remove the 25% flat recharge per interrupt and change it to a flat 20% cooldown reduction on pistol skills. Or, change the flat 25% recharge on interrupt to 20% of the remaining cooldown.
    2. Sharper Images should also be 33% chance to bleed on critical hits. The base bleeding duration should also be reduced to 3 seconds.
      Here are the other classes' bleed application traits:

    3. Bloodlust - 33% chance on crit, 3s duration

    4. Sharpshooter - 33% chance on crit, 3s duration
    5. Sharpened Edges - 33% chance on crit, 3s duration
    6. Barbed Precision - 33% chance on crit, 2.5s duration

    Now compare them to the mesmer's traits:

    1. Sharper Images - 100% chance on crit, 5s duration
    2. Duelist's Discipline - 100% chance on HIT, 3s duration

    Yeah, nice try so :
    Pistol duellist and sword MH should apply condition baseline like most other class weapon (You know the zerk gard and holo who make first damage burn during a fight for example or dps thief with passive poison application etc.).
    And check the @mortrialus.3062 calculation to get an idea of how op (or not) certains bursts are.

    1. Illusionary Counter should be on a 10 second cooldown (8s while traited) and the torment on trigger should be reduced to 3 stacks.

    Buff drasticly the auto then because scepter general output is really low.

    1. Mantra cooldowns and effects need to be reworked.
      • Mantra of Recovery: 20 seconds cooldown

    Actually never used...

    • Mantra of Distraction: 24 seconds cooldown, reduce Diversion recharge time to 10 seconds after fully charging

    People will just switch back to no lock builds, didn't care.

    • Mantra of Pain: 10 seconds cooldown

    Didn't mind.

    • Mantra of Resolve: 20 seconds cooldown, 3 condis removed after fully charging, 2 condis removed per charge

    Rarely used ...

    • Mantra of Concentration: 30 seconds cooldown

    Never used ...

    1. Remove the stunbreak on Elusive Mind and remove the exhaustion.

    Agree it's better to just have a condiclear trait.

    @mortrialus.3062 said:
    The condition damage aspect ignores toughness

    Actually toughness isn't really usefull even against direct damage build :p

    @AngelLovesFredrik.6741 said:
    As you can see in https://twitch.tv/lardoo112/clip/SquareNeighborlyDolphinGrammarKing?filter=clips&range=all&sort=time this clip, the illusion build 1v2s Herald + S/D core thief. This is against Pain + Torben, two VERY good players on their respective classes. This could not have been done on Domination.
    @AngelLovesFredrik.6741 said:
    Mesmer currently has arguably the strongest 1v1 build, or well among the highest tiers. As seen in the EU mAT where Ritu literally farmed every other duelist on the sides.

    Yeah so for the explanation : players just didn't get used to see lock mesmers and didn't build against it.
    I can ensure you that once they wake up, it will have the same utility as it has thoses past years.
    For example take a scrapper with some reflects (and regular stab). He will easy perma cap the point as the build in mAt use 80% projectile attacks to put pressure.
    Take a SB with and adapted build (more condiclear, reflects on block.) same results. etc.
    The only thing that make ritu carry his team in the mAt is the ennemy team thinking they can kill a defensive lock build so they lose time Xv1 ing him. (ofc he play well but there weren't some counter build in front.)
    Can't wait for suiss tournament to highlight the adaptations between matchs.

    @praqtos.9035 said :
    Chaos interruption in any build is a noob carry trait and carry bad players, especially with condi mirage or chrono bunker.

    Or it's just that in this no-condi meta, nobody run condiclear anymore (or very few) so immobilize and condi builds can get some use.
    During condi meta, immobilize someone more than 1 sec never happened.

    No, until now you only say traits/skills don't need nerf and other stuff is underpowered/useless/ has no reward because you say so and that you don't know Powermesmers in Top100 using it is your only argument (you don't know one doesn't even mean there is none. And i am very sure you are wrong, but i will ask him, i give you a private message after he answered, i don't think that needs to be in this thread). And even in case there would be none it doesn't prove that it is unplayable/ useless, it just means there is easier/ stronger stuff you can play that's why ppl who "tryhard" don't play it.

    There is no valid argument based on facts and logic from you i remember, just defiant disagrees based on your subjective view. Or better, the few arguments not only subjective, defiant phrases you had, were obviously wrong. Example: Ofc good player cover their important skills way better but the mesmer himself can counter that too. So it is clearly not impossible to interrupt big skills on good player, it is just harder than vs bad player.
    I meanwhile wrote tons of arguments really explaining why i think what i think. You can convince me that i am wrong when you have one logical argument based on facts, not obviously or logically wrong and not only extremely subjective "i say so that's why it is so"- phrases.

    The montage was never an argument for my balance suggestions it was only an argument to tell you that it is wrong when you say it is unplayable or useless in high rankes when at least one Mesmer does play it in P3/Leg. One counterexample here is enough to prove your pretty absolute statement wrong.

    With Lost Time i agreed to shadowpass not to you.

    Your skill lvl was not an argument to the topic it was an argument on how good or bad you can read the skill lvl of ppl by only watching montages. I never said you are the worst mesmer in the game, i only said that you are clearly worse than top player and that would be easy to see even in a 10 mins montage cherry picked from a whole year of playing. It wasn't an insult, please don't get mad or hurt about it. Most player are not on top lvl, me neither.

    For now i am out of that thread, i said everything i had to say to Powermesmer and Rev balanced several times already. Until now none of you (viquing, shadowpass), who i would put on the both extreme sides of the opinion-scale had an argument could convince me until now but i have no problem to change my mind in case some appear. I don't care for any class in particular, i just want a less noobfriendly, less braindead meta for all classes without nerfing skillbased builds out of viability or buff them into noobfriendly state, so the game distinguishes between good and bad players way more again.

    "playing revenant is borderline exploiting" - up condimirage 2k18

  • shadowpass.4236shadowpass.4236 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 26, 2019

    @bravan.3876

    I don't see how any of the changes I proposed are unreasonable. If you or anyone else disagrees, feel free to tell me why with VALID reasons (ie. math). For example, someone argued that Mantra of Recovery is never used but it has 2-4x more effective healing per second than nearly every other healing skill in the game with its current cooldown. Mathematically, increasing the cooldown to 20 seconds would put it in line with other healing skills.

    For the record, I'm all for skill-based play. I don't care if I got out-skilled and died but if I feel like I'm fighting against the build rather than the player I'm going to have an issue with it REGARDLESS of whether I win or lose the fight.

    I thought boonbeast was stupid and should've been nerfed. I dislike Sic Em gimmick builds. D/D condi dodge spam thief was annoying. Mirage's being able to dodge while CC'd unlike every other class is lame and mesmer mantras have ridiculously strong effects on extremely low cooldowns.

    I play every class at a relatively high level. I understand how each of them play, their strengths, and their weaknesses. Thus, when I propose nerfs/buffs I always back up my suggestions with math or examples.

  • bravan.3876bravan.3876 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 26, 2019

    @shadowpass.4236 said:
    @bravan.3876

    I don't see how any of the changes I proposed are unreasonable. If you or anyone else disagrees, feel free to tell me why with VALID reasons (ie. math). For example, someone argued that Mantra of Recovery is never used but it has 2-4x more effective healing per second than nearly every other healing skill in the game with its current cooldown. Mathematically, increasing the cooldown to 20 seconds would put it in line with other healing skills.

    For the record, I'm all for skill-based play. I don't care if I got out-skilled and died but if I feel like I'm fighting against the build rather than the player I'm going to have an issue with it REGARDLESS of whether I win or lose the fight.

    I thought boonbeast was stupid and should've been nerfed. I dislike Sic Em gimmick builds. D/D condi dodge spam thief was annoying. Mirage's being able to dodge while CC'd unlike every other class is lame and mesmer mantras have ridiculously strong effects on extremely low cooldowns.

    I play every class at a relatively high level. I understand how each of them play, their strengths, and their weaknesses. Thus, when I propose nerfs/buffs I always back up my suggestions with math or examples.

    Scroll up a bit or check your notifications. I just made a pretty long explanation (by @ your name) why i think a cd increase to 20+secs is too long for Mantra of Distraction and why i think it is one of the most skillbased, reactive/ Interactive utilties mesmer has. I compared it to Signet of Midnight to make my thoughts clear. I also gave you definitions i think are valid to distinguish between a Mantramesmer (to call it Mantra Mesmer its prime nature should be to use/ spam MantrasSSS, plural) and an Interruptmesmer with only using one Mantra and prime nature of reactively interrupting big skills what the one Mantra (as a tool to interrupt) is used for aside from other skills. I agreed to Lost Time nerfs because it makes Mantra of Distraction just as braindead spammable as Mantra of Pain and i agreed to a reduced cd refresh from Mantra on f3. Even tho in the current state of the game i don't think any of the Mantra of Distraction nerfs are needed before all meta stuff get nerfed too.

    Wasn't me saying anything to the other Mantras, i clearly said i don't know them good enough because i never saw them getting used, i have no opinion on them i could back up.

    "playing revenant is borderline exploiting" - up condimirage 2k18

  • shadowpass.4236shadowpass.4236 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 26, 2019

    @bravan.3876

    I get that MoD is skill-based and reactive but I don't think it justifies how low of a cooldown it has.

    Look at Distracting Dagger on thief and compare it to Power Lock.

    Distracting Dagger:

    1. Dazes for .25 seconds
    2. 900 range
    3. 20 second cooldown
    4. Can't be used whilst simultaneously casting another skill

    Power Lock:

    1. Dazes for 1.5 seconds
    2. 1200 range
    3. 12 second cooldown
    4. Can be used whilst simultaneously casting another skill

    Both of these utilities have secondary effects and require the player to have good timing in order to land the interrupts. However, Mantra of Distraction's Power Lock is a straight upgrade to Distracting Dagger in every way. It can also achieve the same skill recharge increase on interrupt by taking Power Block in Domination (amongst other interrupt/cc-based trait synergies).

  • bravan.3876bravan.3876 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 26, 2019

    @shadowpass.4236 said:
    @bravan.3876

    I get that MoD is skill-based and reactive but I don't think it justifies how low of a cooldown it has.

    Look at Distracting Dagger on thief and compare it to Power Lock.

    Distracting Dagger:

    1. Dazes for .25 seconds
    2. 900 range
    3. 20 second cooldown
    4. Can't be used whilst simultaneously casting another skill

    Power Lock:

    1. Dazes for 1.5 seconds
    2. 1200 range
    3. 12 second cooldown
    4. Can be used whilst simultaneously casting another skill

    Both of these utilities have secondary effects and require the player to have good timing in order to land the interrupts. However, Mantra of Distraction's Power Lock is a straight upgrade to Distracting Dagger in every way. It can also achieve the same skill recharge increase on interrupt by taking Power Block in Domination (amongst other interrupt/cc-based trait synergies).

    I don't think that it always makes sense to compare skills from different classes like that. Thief has a different class mechanic and you would need to compare the whole build this skill is used with, with the build a mesmer has during using Mantra of Distraction. I also already mentioned that Powermesmer from its whole mechanic is way more based on comboing stuff. Also this skill has no recharge leaving the thief vulnerable for more than a second or requires to use other defensive skills to cover the recharge. I also doubt that Anets intention was to give Daredevil an interruptfocused build with that skill. If yes they failed, there is a reason this utility didnt get used for this purpose ever, actually wasn't used at all except of some meme builds with traits pushing physikal skills, in that meme build all utilityslots were stacked with physical skills to get the trait rewards, never for an interrupt based build. Also this skill has 3 instead 2 charges and only 1 second cd in between uses, in fact a thief almost can use it more often than the mesmer has Mantra of Distraction. Sometimes Anet balance makes sense obviously they think a thief would be too op with instant interrupt skills can be used that often and can be combined with other skills while having steal already for that.

    "playing revenant is borderline exploiting" - up condimirage 2k18

  • shadowpass.4236shadowpass.4236 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @bravan.3876

    Personally, I believe if a skill is considered balanced on one class, it should be balanced on all classes.

    For example:

    1. Give a warrior's Fast Hands to any other class and there's no issue.
    2. Give a mirage's ability to dodge while CC'd to any other class and all of a sudden you break every spec in the game because cc is now rendered useless.
    3. How fun would it be if a ranger could Maul from stealth whilst simultaneously casting Power Lock and Power Spike? Horrible.
    4. What about a thief Backstabbing whilst casting PL and PS? Also horrible.
    5. But give Bull's Charge to any class and it would be fine.
    6. Giving other classes Sic Em? Gimmicky, but unhealthy.
    7. etc. etc.

    Changing Power Lock to function similarly to Head Shot would still allow for skill-based interrupt gameplay. A 24 second cooldown on Mantra of Distraction is still considered short compared to the cooldowns of nearly every other utility skill in the game. You'd still be able to use it multiple times in a single fight.

  • bravan.3876bravan.3876 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 26, 2019

    No there is a reason why Warriors don't have Stealth or Teleports. Just because Shadowstep is balanced on Thief doesn't mean it is balanced for Warrior considering all other strengths Warriors have. It would be op and it would not fit into the class mechanics of the Warrior specs we have until now. Means a comparision from class specific skills/ traits not always make sense and what is balanced on one class can be (but doesn't need to be) totally broken on other classes.

    Use Distracting Daggers and see how often you have it available. It is around the same than Mantra of Distraction with current cd without having the opportunity costs of an over 2 secs recharge during the mesmer is very vulnerable or has to use other cds to cover the recharge (you also have to add the recharge into the cd, means it is 14, 25 secs already, if you make it 15 secs cd as i said, then it has effective already 17,25 secs cd with having only 2 not 3 recharges and Distracting Dagger would already be available more often). And i mentioned the reason i think Anet had to give Thieves only instant interrupt ammo skills with animations aside from steal, because in the whole class consept of Thief it would be broken during it is not on the Mesmer class mechanic what is in general way more based on comboing instant skills with not instant skills. Daredevil was not supposed to have an interrupt build like Mesmer because in the environment of the daredevil class mechanic it would be op.

    "playing revenant is borderline exploiting" - up condimirage 2k18

  • shadowpass.4236shadowpass.4236 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @bravan.3876 said:
    No there is a reason why Warriors don't have Stealth or Teleports. Just because Shadowstep is balanced on Thief doesn't mean it is balanced for Warrior considering all other strengths Warriors have. It would be op and it would not fit into the class mechanics of the Warrior specs we have until now. Means a comparision from class specific skills/ traits not always make sense and what is balanced on one class can be (but doesn't need to be) totally broken on other classes.

    Use Distracting Daggers and see how often you have it available. It is around the same than Mantra of Distraction with current cd without having the opportunity costs of a over 2 secs recharge during the mesmer is very vulnerable or has to use other cds to cover the recharge (you also have to add the recharge into the cd, means it is 14, 25 secs already, if you make it 15 secs cd as i said, then it has effective already 17,25 secs cd with having only 2 not 3 recharges and Distracting Dagger would already be available more often). And i mentioned the reason i think Anet had to give Thieves only instant interrupt ammo skills with animations aside from steal, because in the whole class consept of Thief it would be broken during it is not on the Mesmer class mechanic what is in general way more based on comboing instant skills with not instant skills. Daredevil was not supposed to have an interrupt build like Mesmer because in the environment of the daredevil class mechanic it would be op.

    Yeah but giving shadowstep or stealth to Warriors wouldn't break the class.

    Giving dodge while cc'd to every class would be just as busted as it is on Mirage.

  • Crab Fear.1624Crab Fear.1624 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:
    No there is a reason why Warriors don't have Stealth or Teleports. Just because Shadowstep is balanced on Thief doesn't mean it is balanced for Warrior considering all other strengths Warriors have. It would be op and it would not fit into the class mechanics of the Warrior specs we have until now. Means a comparision from class specific skills/ traits not always make sense and what is balanced on one class can be (but doesn't need to be) totally broken on other classes.

    Use Distracting Daggers and see how often you have it available. It is around the same than Mantra of Distraction with current cd without having the opportunity costs of a over 2 secs recharge during the mesmer is very vulnerable or has to use other cds to cover the recharge (you also have to add the recharge into the cd, means it is 14, 25 secs already, if you make it 15 secs cd as i said, then it has effective already 17,25 secs cd with having only 2 not 3 recharges and Distracting Dagger would already be available more often). And i mentioned the reason i think Anet had to give Thieves only instant interrupt ammo skills with animations aside from steal, because in the whole class consept of Thief it would be broken during it is not on the Mesmer class mechanic what is in general way more based on comboing instant skills with not instant skills. Daredevil was not supposed to have an interrupt build like Mesmer because in the environment of the daredevil class mechanic it would be op.

    Yeah but giving shadowstep or stealth to Warriors wouldn't break the class.

    Giving dodge while cc'd to every class would be just as busted as it is on Mirage.

    Oh man, if they give shadow step to warriors, I am going to have a new main.

    Soon™ ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

  • bravan.3876bravan.3876 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:
    No there is a reason why Warriors don't have Stealth or Teleports. Just because Shadowstep is balanced on Thief doesn't mean it is balanced for Warrior considering all other strengths Warriors have. It would be op and it would not fit into the class mechanics of the Warrior specs we have until now. Means a comparision from class specific skills/ traits not always make sense and what is balanced on one class can be (but doesn't need to be) totally broken on other classes.

    Use Distracting Daggers and see how often you have it available. It is around the same than Mantra of Distraction with current cd without having the opportunity costs of a over 2 secs recharge during the mesmer is very vulnerable or has to use other cds to cover the recharge (you also have to add the recharge into the cd, means it is 14, 25 secs already, if you make it 15 secs cd as i said, then it has effective already 17,25 secs cd with having only 2 not 3 recharges and Distracting Dagger would already be available more often). And i mentioned the reason i think Anet had to give Thieves only instant interrupt ammo skills with animations aside from steal, because in the whole class consept of Thief it would be broken during it is not on the Mesmer class mechanic what is in general way more based on comboing instant skills with not instant skills. Daredevil was not supposed to have an interrupt build like Mesmer because in the environment of the daredevil class mechanic it would be op.

    Yeah but giving shadowstep or stealth to Warriors wouldn't break the class.

    Giving dodge while cc'd to every class would be just as busted as it is on Mirage.

    But that was exactly what i said, on current warrior specs it ofc would be op and not fitting (means breaking) class mechanic

    "playing revenant is borderline exploiting" - up condimirage 2k18

  • shadowpass.4236shadowpass.4236 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 27, 2019

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:
    No there is a reason why Warriors don't have Stealth or Teleports. Just because Shadowstep is balanced on Thief doesn't mean it is balanced for Warrior considering all other strengths Warriors have. It would be op and it would not fit into the class mechanics of the Warrior specs we have until now. Means a comparision from class specific skills/ traits not always make sense and what is balanced on one class can be (but doesn't need to be) totally broken on other classes.

    Use Distracting Daggers and see how often you have it available. It is around the same than Mantra of Distraction with current cd without having the opportunity costs of a over 2 secs recharge during the mesmer is very vulnerable or has to use other cds to cover the recharge (you also have to add the recharge into the cd, means it is 14, 25 secs already, if you make it 15 secs cd as i said, then it has effective already 17,25 secs cd with having only 2 not 3 recharges and Distracting Dagger would already be available more often). And i mentioned the reason i think Anet had to give Thieves only instant interrupt ammo skills with animations aside from steal, because in the whole class consept of Thief it would be broken during it is not on the Mesmer class mechanic what is in general way more based on comboing instant skills with not instant skills. Daredevil was not supposed to have an interrupt build like Mesmer because in the environment of the daredevil class mechanic it would be op.

    Yeah but giving shadowstep or stealth to Warriors wouldn't break the class.

    Giving dodge while cc'd to every class would be just as busted as it is on Mirage.

    But that was exactly what i said, on current warrior specs it ofc would be op and not fitting (means breaking) class mechanic

    It might not fit the class but warriors having shadowstep and stealth definitely wouldn't be overpowered. It would be similar to how portal was implemented on scourges.

  • shadowpass.4236shadowpass.4236 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:
    No there is a reason why Warriors don't have Stealth or Teleports. Just because Shadowstep is balanced on Thief doesn't mean it is balanced for Warrior considering all other strengths Warriors have. It would be op and it would not fit into the class mechanics of the Warrior specs we have until now. Means a comparision from class specific skills/ traits not always make sense and what is balanced on one class can be (but doesn't need to be) totally broken on other classes.

    Use Distracting Daggers and see how often you have it available. It is around the same than Mantra of Distraction with current cd without having the opportunity costs of a over 2 secs recharge during the mesmer is very vulnerable or has to use other cds to cover the recharge (you also have to add the recharge into the cd, means it is 14, 25 secs already, if you make it 15 secs cd as i said, then it has effective already 17,25 secs cd with having only 2 not 3 recharges and Distracting Dagger would already be available more often). And i mentioned the reason i think Anet had to give Thieves only instant interrupt ammo skills with animations aside from steal, because in the whole class consept of Thief it would be broken during it is not on the Mesmer class mechanic what is in general way more based on comboing instant skills with not instant skills. Daredevil was not supposed to have an interrupt build like Mesmer because in the environment of the daredevil class mechanic it would be op.

    Yeah but giving shadowstep or stealth to Warriors wouldn't break the class.

    Giving dodge while cc'd to every class would be just as busted as it is on Mirage.

    But that was exactly what i said, on current warrior specs it ofc would be op and not fitting (means breaking) class mechanic

    It might not fit the class but warriors having shadowstep and stealth definitely wouldn't be overpowered. It would be similar to how portal was implemented on scourges.

    Ofc current Shadowstep or Stealth would be op on current Warriors. 2 secs stun cast skill or bullscharge with quickness carried follow up dmg coverd by stealth? Berserker casting signet for full f1 power and casting 15k aoe gs f1 Arc Divider out of stealth? Sure you would think having a Mesmer only dazing instant form max range instead would be pure heaven...

    I really wouldn't have an issue with it. Warriors can get stealthed by a multitude of classes. Running directly away from their position with swiftness/super speed is usually enough to avoid the damage completely or just dodge somewhere in the middle of the stealth.

    As for Arc Divider, it's not an instant one-shot. It gives you more than enough time to react during the channel.

    A stealthed killshot would be annoying though. I honestly think removing berserker amulet from PvP would solve a lot of the issues.

  • Tayga.3192Tayga.3192 Member ✭✭✭

    @shadowpass.4236 said:
    I really wouldn't have an issue with it. Warriors can get stealthed by a multitude of classes. Running directly away from their position with swiftness/super speed is usually enough to avoid the damage completely or just dodge somewhere in the middle of the stealth.

    As for Arc Divider, it's not an instant one-shot. It gives you more than enough time to react during the channel.

    A stealthed killshot would be annoying though. I honestly think removing berserker amulet from PvP would solve a lot of the issues.

    Removing an amulet never really solves anything, heal tempest with cleric amulet wasn't as busted as the current firebrand with mender.

    I would gladly accept stealth or teleport warrior, especially berserker. I would just stealth arc divider or rifle f1 everyone I see or rival thieves in mobility with shadowstep spellbreaker.

  • viquing.8254viquing.8254 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 27, 2019

    @shadowpass.4236 said:
    For example, someone argued that Mantra of Recovery is never used but it has 2-4x more effective healing per second than nearly every other healing skill in the game with its current cooldown.

    Nearly every other healing skill in the game have other kisscool effects or way easier to cast. (Plus, even if the Heal per Second is good, what about the Heal per Clic ?)

    I thought boonbeast was stupid and should've been nerfed. I dislike Sic Em gimmick builds. D/D condi dodge spam thief was annoying. Mirage's being able to dodge while CC'd unlike every other class is lame and mesmer mantras have ridiculously strong effects on extremely low cooldowns.

    Answered here :

    @Heartpains.7312 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    Giving dodge while cc'd to every class would be just as busted as it is on Mirage.

    You know at some point some classes can't even be cc'd, just saying, your focus on mesmer is just too much. [..].

    .

    @shadowpass.4236 said:
    @bravan.3876

    I get that MoD is skill-based and reactive but I don't think it justifies how low of a cooldown it has.

    Look at Distracting Dagger on thief and compare it to Power Lock.

    Distracting Dagger:

    1. Dazes for .25 seconds
    2. 900 range
    3. 20 second cooldown
    4. Can't be used whilst simultaneously casting another skill

    Power Lock:

    1. Dazes for 1.5 seconds
    2. 1200 range
    3. 12 second cooldown
    4. Can be used whilst simultaneously casting another skill

    Both of these utilities have secondary effects and require the player to have good timing in order to land the interrupts. However, Mantra of Distraction's Power Lock is a straight upgrade to Distracting Dagger in every way. It can also achieve the same skill recharge increase on interrupt by taking Power Block in Domination (amongst other interrupt/cc-based trait synergies).

    Ok, why

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @viquing.8254 said:
    Rofl the amount of post to answer in 24H...

    @bravan.3876 said:

    It's a MONTAGE ROFL.
    If I make a vid playing inspiration focus trait while owning top player 2% of time but just showing theses moments, you will ask to nerf focus trait ? (or find it fine/balanced and so on ?)
    Continue dreaming about the possibility of play like the best moment during a montage if you want but don't use it as proof please.
    And I'm not even sure he ending top 100.

    Again, how about you just ask him? Instead contradicting every argument i have without even knowing anything? Also montage or not the footage is not that cherry picked considered how much you can see from several matches. And when you are able to read gameplay you can see how skilled someone is. But as said just ask him, from what i have seen on shown rating it was what i said. I always agreed that you need kind of exceptional skill lvl to make that build work like he does, that it is not a build for the masses. My balance suggestions are also not based on footage from other players, they are based on my own experiences as mulitclass player, my game knowledge and just logical thinking.
    You know i love to discuss with you but i am also sure you could collect footage from a year and make a 10 mins video with highlights from it and i still could see that your skill lvl isn't any near to all the top lvl player in this game (the few still active and all the top player already left), no matter what class.

    Hmm so :
    1) how about you ask him ? Because I already did it.
    2) Who is contradicting every argument I have with a : "1 player on the entire game did it on a montage."
    3) What my skill level have to do here ? Btw I face every day leg to plat3 players so even If I'm the worst mesmer here, it seems there is worst.

    I agree that Lost Time needs to get a rework into an interrupt skill not only disable

    I didn't agree as long as I didn't see this trait in high level. And for a GM it's way less "passive" than most other class who can do the same damage in aoe with classic rotation.

    @shadowpass.4236 said :
    Also, I neither agree nor disagree with your opinion on MoD. It takes skill to use properly I guess but it's still really easy to land it on key skills like someone's heal.
    @bravan.3876 said :
    I just wait for @viquing.8254 to stop

    Here I am : player who use keyskill with no security are bad. Particulary on heal. Watch stream, 80% of top players at last LoS during heal cast.

    Saving a steal for the heal is great as well. However, having two 1200 range instant dazes on a 12 second cooldown that also reduces the cooldown of Diversion by nearly 50% isn't healthy for the game.

    Steal is a 1200 range instant interrupt with other kisscool effects who is fine but no MoD ?

    @bravan.3876 said :
    The truth often lies in the middle (here in the middle of both your opinions). You have counterplay like disengage/ kiting out of range (having blink cd in mind), los, stabi, aegis, blinds, invuln, blocks during you can cast other stuff (Ele, Engi, Guard...), stealth and so on to cover skills you don't want to get interrupted. You also know when Mesmer just used one charge you have 4 seconds Mantra free time, or 12 secs after 2 uses, you also can bait Mantra uses by stowing bigger animations.

    Yeah, you are the white sheep, we are devils extremists. Thanks for the thread manipulation try.
    I trust what I see and for the moment I never see a mesmer using power block in plat3/leg MU since ... very long time.
    And key skill like FB rez signet will always be covered if you didn't put come CC pressure before.
    And

    It really feels for me this discussion leads to nowhere. Neither ppl like @viquing.8254 nor the other extreme like @shadowpass.4236 can be convinced with tons of arguments to change their extreme and biased opinions at least a bit into the middle where truth often lies.

    Come on, it's you who can't be conviced with the tons of arguments whil having only 1 player who did a montage with a build "for fun" (<= his words) as argumentation.
    Stop making sentence like if you know everything please and encapsulate thoses who disagree on "extremists" side while sitting you as the good guy on the middle side, we aren't in politics.

    @shadowpass.4236 said:
    1. Mirage should not be able to dodge while hard cc'd/immobilized.

    Yeah, rev shouldn't be able to jiro breakstunt while hard cc'd/immobilize, thief should teleport/condiclear while immobilized, holo shouldn't be under 80% stab uptime on certains builds, most professions shouldn't have better vigor uptime than mesmers etc etc.

    1. Mantra charges need to function like Head Shot does for thief. So, they won't have cast times but can't be used whilst simultaneously casting other skills.

    The concept on mantra are strong instant effect with hudge casttime counter part.

    1. Duelist's Discipline should be a 33% chance to bleed on critical hits like every other bleed-on-attack-related trait. Currently, it's 100% chance to bleed on hit, which is why Phantasmal Duelist can single-handedly apply a massive amount of bleeding. Remove the 25% flat recharge per interrupt and change it to a flat 20% cooldown reduction on pistol skills. Or, change the flat 25% recharge on interrupt to 20% of the remaining cooldown.
    2. Sharper Images should also be 33% chance to bleed on critical hits. The base bleeding duration should also be reduced to 3 seconds.
      Here are the other classes' bleed application traits:

    3. Bloodlust - 33% chance on crit, 3s duration

    4. Sharpshooter - 33% chance on crit, 3s duration
    5. Sharpened Edges - 33% chance on crit, 3s duration
    6. Barbed Precision - 33% chance on crit, 2.5s duration

    Now compare them to the mesmer's traits:

    1. Sharper Images - 100% chance on crit, 5s duration
    2. Duelist's Discipline - 100% chance on HIT, 3s duration

    Yeah, nice try so :
    Pistol duellist and sword MH should apply condition baseline like most other class weapon (You know the zerk gard and holo who make first damage burn during a fight for example or dps thief with passive poison application etc.).
    And check the @mortrialus.3062 calculation to get an idea of how op (or not) certains bursts are.

    1. Illusionary Counter should be on a 10 second cooldown (8s while traited) and the torment on trigger should be reduced to 3 stacks.

    Buff drasticly the auto then because scepter general output is really low.

    1. Mantra cooldowns and effects need to be reworked.
      • Mantra of Recovery: 20 seconds cooldown

    Actually never used...

    • Mantra of Distraction: 24 seconds cooldown, reduce Diversion recharge time to 10 seconds after fully charging

    People will just switch back to no lock builds, didn't care.

    • Mantra of Pain: 10 seconds cooldown

    Didn't mind.

    • Mantra of Resolve: 20 seconds cooldown, 3 condis removed after fully charging, 2 condis removed per charge

    Rarely used ...

    • Mantra of Concentration: 30 seconds cooldown

    Never used ...

    1. Remove the stunbreak on Elusive Mind and remove the exhaustion.

    Agree it's better to just have a condiclear trait.

    @mortrialus.3062 said:
    The condition damage aspect ignores toughness

    Actually toughness isn't really usefull even against direct damage build :p

    @AngelLovesFredrik.6741 said:
    As you can see in https://twitch.tv/lardoo112/clip/SquareNeighborlyDolphinGrammarKing?filter=clips&range=all&sort=time this clip, the illusion build 1v2s Herald + S/D core thief. This is against Pain + Torben, two VERY good players on their respective classes. This could not have been done on Domination.
    @AngelLovesFredrik.6741 said:
    Mesmer currently has arguably the strongest 1v1 build, or well among the highest tiers. As seen in the EU mAT where Ritu literally farmed every other duelist on the sides.

    Yeah so for the explanation : players just didn't get used to see lock mesmers and didn't build against it.
    I can ensure you that once they wake up, it will have the same utility as it has thoses past years.
    For example take a scrapper with some reflects (and regular stab). He will easy perma cap the point as the build in mAt use 80% projectile attacks to put pressure.
    Take a SB with and adapted build (more condiclear, reflects on block.) same results. etc.
    The only thing that make ritu carry his team in the mAt is the ennemy team thinking they can kill a defensive lock build so they lose time Xv1 ing him. (ofc he play well but there weren't some counter build in front.)
    Can't wait for suiss tournament to highlight the adaptations between matchs.

    @praqtos.9035 said :
    Chaos interruption in any build is a noob carry trait and carry bad players, especially with condi mirage or chrono bunker.

    Or it's just that in this no-condi meta, nobody run condiclear anymore (or very few) so immobilize and condi builds can get some use.
    During condi meta, immobilize someone more than 1 sec never happened.

    No, until now you only say traits/skills don't need nerf and other stuff is underpowered/useless/ has no reward because you say so and that you don't know Powermesmers in Top100 using it is your only argument (you don't know one doesn't even mean there is none. And i am very sure you are wrong, but i will ask him, i give you a private message after he answered, i don't think that needs to be in this thread). And even in case there would be none it doesn't prove that it is unplayable/ useless, it just means there is easier/ stronger stuff you can play that's why ppl who "tryhard" don't play it.

    There is no valid argument based on facts and logic from you i remember, just defiant disagrees based on your subjective view. Or better, the few arguments not only subjective, defiant phrases you had, were obviously wrong. Example: Ofc good player cover their important skills way better but the mesmer himself can counter that too. So it is clearly not impossible to interrupt big skills on good player, it is just harder than vs bad player.
    I meanwhile wrote tons of arguments really explaining why i think what i think. You can convince me that i am wrong when you have one logical argument based on facts, not obviously or logically wrong and not only extremely subjective "i say so that's why it is so"- phrases.

    The montage was never an argument for my balance suggestions it was only an argument to tell you that it is wrong when you say it is unplayable or useless in high rankes when at least one Mesmer does play it in P3/Leg. One counterexample here is enough to prove your pretty absolute statement wrong.

    With Lost Time i agreed to shadowpass not to you.

    Your skill lvl was not an argument to the topic it was an argument on how good or bad you can read the skill lvl of ppl by only watching montages. I never said you are the worst mesmer in the game, i only said that you are clearly worse than top player and that would be easy to see even in a 10 mins montage cherry picked from a whole year of playing. It wasn't an insult, please don't get mad or hurt about it. Most player are not on top lvl, me neither.

    For now i am out of that thread, i said everything i had to say to Powermesmer and Rev balanced several times already. Until now none of you (viquing, shadowpass), who i would put on the both extreme sides of the opinion-scale had an argument could convince me until now but i have no problem to change my mind in case some appear. I don't care for any class in particular, i just want a less noobfriendly, less braindead meta for all classes without nerfing skillbased builds out of viability or buff them into noobfriendly state, so the game distinguishes between good and bad players way more again.

    If I never see a mesmer running power block with more than 400 matchs and some At each seasons he is very well hidden.

    i say so that's why it is so

    Really ? You want to count the number of "I say it so that's it is so" in your threads versus mine ?

    Your skill lvl was not an argument to the topic it was an argument on how good or bad you can read the skill lvl of ppl by only watching montages.

    And you are better than me at reading skill lvl of people in vid ? I don't get mad at it but I'm curious about how are you persuaded that you can read skill better than other ?
    You just seem to confound skilled with efficient. And again you just seem to defend the "I play tennis with my feet because it's skilled", do you see a lot of that in tennis tournament ?
    Again to be a good player for me, the first step is to use all the tools available, not to posh some because it's efficient (which is very subjective anyway.).

    Your arguments resumed :
    1) Power block is fine, CI&other rupts trait are noob carry. <= Subjective.
    2) There is 1 mes who manage to make a montage on a fun build with power block. <= Objective but bad prove because you can did it with basically every traits and builds. I mean how saying it's unefficient is false considering a montage is a very little part of what really happen.

    To point 1 I answer that power block can do something only when rupt key skills like you said but :

    • Even when rupting key skills, the opponnent can dodge/condiclear/use other skill. <= that's what I call unefficient. <= Subjective.
    • Power block and CI take exactly the same skill to trigger.
    • Key skills are very unlikelly to be rupt in a realistic situation vs good opponent. <= Objective : just watch how much signet rez failed on a good match, it's far to be under 50% and the most case it's rupt is because thief removing stab, not mesmer. Just look how every pro LoS to cast skills like heal, cover them with stab or invul etc.

    To point 2 I answer that :

    • A montage only highlight the beautiful moment of a player gameplay. Objective : it's basically the definition of a montage.
    • 1 player doing a montage with power block isn't representative. Subjective
  • bravan.3876bravan.3876 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 27, 2019

    @viquing.8254 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:
    For example, someone argued that Mantra of Recovery is never used but it has 2-4x more effective healing per second than nearly every other healing skill in the game with its current cooldown.

    Nearly every other healing skill in the game have other kisscool effects or way easier to cast. (Plus, even if the Heal per Second is good, what about the Heal per Clic ?)

    I thought boonbeast was stupid and should've been nerfed. I dislike Sic Em gimmick builds. D/D condi dodge spam thief was annoying. Mirage's being able to dodge while CC'd unlike every other class is lame and mesmer mantras have ridiculously strong effects on extremely low cooldowns.

    Answered here :

    @Heartpains.7312 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    Giving dodge while cc'd to every class would be just as busted as it is on Mirage.

    You know at some point some classes can't even be cc'd, just saying, your focus on mesmer is just too much.

    As for removing berserk amulet, I play wvw and the issue is still the same for mesmer in spvp, you run out of cds is what makes us choose berserk, why would we pick marauder? sure if i pick marauder i can take more hits here and there, but at some point, no cds means sitting duck taking whatever they wanna do to you, and that was created MOSTLY by the recent nerfs, most of them the ones started with this sentence "we want mirage to excel in longer fights", we can't stay long in combat, the longer we stay we will find ourselves without jaunt, without blink, without f4, without whatever other skills you are using, without heal.

    The more you play mesmer, specially mirage you will notice that it is better to go berserk, I have not played chrono for long time because i like mirage's style, but if you keep playing mirage you will find that berserk is going to give you way better results than marauder because of the recent nerfs that came a long with that lovely patch, berserk or marauder, your playstyle wouldn't change, what you need to dodge you will have to dodge with both stats, the only difference is with berserk your damage is higher, so you have chance of getting the target faster, with marauder you play the same and you survive, but you have no cds so you die. (except some cases like the stealth stabby thieves) because those actually kill you with 1 hit.

    @shadowpass.4236 said:
    @bravan.3876

    I get that MoD is skill-based and reactive but I don't think it justifies how low of a cooldown it has.

    Look at Distracting Dagger on thief and compare it to Power Lock.

    Distracting Dagger:

    1. Dazes for .25 seconds
    2. 900 range
    3. 20 second cooldown
    4. Can't be used whilst simultaneously casting another skill

    Power Lock:

    1. Dazes for 1.5 seconds
    2. 1200 range
    3. 12 second cooldown
    4. Can be used whilst simultaneously casting another skill

    Both of these utilities have secondary effects and require the player to have good timing in order to land the interrupts. However, Mantra of Distraction's Power Lock is a straight upgrade to Distracting Dagger in every way. It can also achieve the same skill recharge increase on interrupt by taking Power Block in Domination (amongst other interrupt/cc-based trait synergies).

    Ok, why

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @viquing.8254 said:
    Rofl the amount of post to answer in 24H...

    @bravan.3876 said:

    It's a MONTAGE ROFL.
    If I make a vid playing inspiration focus trait while owning top player 2% of time but just showing theses moments, you will ask to nerf focus trait ? (or find it fine/balanced and so on ?)
    Continue dreaming about the possibility of play like the best moment during a montage if you want but don't use it as proof please.
    And I'm not even sure he ending top 100.

    Again, how about you just ask him? Instead contradicting every argument i have without even knowing anything? Also montage or not the footage is not that cherry picked considered how much you can see from several matches. And when you are able to read gameplay you can see how skilled someone is. But as said just ask him, from what i have seen on shown rating it was what i said. I always agreed that you need kind of exceptional skill lvl to make that build work like he does, that it is not a build for the masses. My balance suggestions are also not based on footage from other players, they are based on my own experiences as mulitclass player, my game knowledge and just logical thinking.
    You know i love to discuss with you but i am also sure you could collect footage from a year and make a 10 mins video with highlights from it and i still could see that your skill lvl isn't any near to all the top lvl player in this game (the few still active and all the top player already left), no matter what class.

    Hmm so :
    1) how about you ask him ? Because I already did it.
    2) Who is contradicting every argument I have with a : "1 player on the entire game did it on a montage."
    3) What my skill level have to do here ? Btw I face every day leg to plat3 players so even If I'm the worst mesmer here, it seems there is worst.

    I agree that Lost Time needs to get a rework into an interrupt skill not only disable

    I didn't agree as long as I didn't see this trait in high level. And for a GM it's way less "passive" than most other class who can do the same damage in aoe with classic rotation.

    @shadowpass.4236 said :
    Also, I neither agree nor disagree with your opinion on MoD. It takes skill to use properly I guess but it's still really easy to land it on key skills like someone's heal.
    @bravan.3876 said :
    I just wait for @viquing.8254 to stop

    Here I am : player who use keyskill with no security are bad. Particulary on heal. Watch stream, 80% of top players at last LoS during heal cast.

    Saving a steal for the heal is great as well. However, having two 1200 range instant dazes on a 12 second cooldown that also reduces the cooldown of Diversion by nearly 50% isn't healthy for the game.

    Steal is a 1200 range instant interrupt with other kisscool effects who is fine but no MoD ?

    @bravan.3876 said :
    The truth often lies in the middle (here in the middle of both your opinions). You have counterplay like disengage/ kiting out of range (having blink cd in mind), los, stabi, aegis, blinds, invuln, blocks during you can cast other stuff (Ele, Engi, Guard...), stealth and so on to cover skills you don't want to get interrupted. You also know when Mesmer just used one charge you have 4 seconds Mantra free time, or 12 secs after 2 uses, you also can bait Mantra uses by stowing bigger animations.

    Yeah, you are the white sheep, we are devils extremists. Thanks for the thread manipulation try.
    I trust what I see and for the moment I never see a mesmer using power block in plat3/leg MU since ... very long time.
    And key skill like FB rez signet will always be covered if you didn't put come CC pressure before.
    And

    It really feels for me this discussion leads to nowhere. Neither ppl like @viquing.8254 nor the other extreme like @shadowpass.4236 can be convinced with tons of arguments to change their extreme and biased opinions at least a bit into the middle where truth often lies.

    Come on, it's you who can't be conviced with the tons of arguments whil having only 1 player who did a montage with a build "for fun" (<= his words) as argumentation.
    Stop making sentence like if you know everything please and encapsulate thoses who disagree on "extremists" side while sitting you as the good guy on the middle side, we aren't in politics.

    @shadowpass.4236 said:
    1. Mirage should not be able to dodge while hard cc'd/immobilized.

    Yeah, rev shouldn't be able to jiro breakstunt while hard cc'd/immobilize, thief should teleport/condiclear while immobilized, holo shouldn't be under 80% stab uptime on certains builds, most professions shouldn't have better vigor uptime than mesmers etc etc.

    1. Mantra charges need to function like Head Shot does for thief. So, they won't have cast times but can't be used whilst simultaneously casting other skills.

    The concept on mantra are strong instant effect with hudge casttime counter part.

    1. Duelist's Discipline should be a 33% chance to bleed on critical hits like every other bleed-on-attack-related trait. Currently, it's 100% chance to bleed on hit, which is why Phantasmal Duelist can single-handedly apply a massive amount of bleeding. Remove the 25% flat recharge per interrupt and change it to a flat 20% cooldown reduction on pistol skills. Or, change the flat 25% recharge on interrupt to 20% of the remaining cooldown.
    2. Sharper Images should also be 33% chance to bleed on critical hits. The base bleeding duration should also be reduced to 3 seconds.
      Here are the other classes' bleed application traits:

    3. Bloodlust - 33% chance on crit, 3s duration

    4. Sharpshooter - 33% chance on crit, 3s duration
    5. Sharpened Edges - 33% chance on crit, 3s duration
    6. Barbed Precision - 33% chance on crit, 2.5s duration

    Now compare them to the mesmer's traits:

    1. Sharper Images - 100% chance on crit, 5s duration
    2. Duelist's Discipline - 100% chance on HIT, 3s duration

    Yeah, nice try so :
    Pistol duellist and sword MH should apply condition baseline like most other class weapon (You know the zerk gard and holo who make first damage burn during a fight for example or dps thief with passive poison application etc.).
    And check the @mortrialus.3062 calculation to get an idea of how op (or not) certains bursts are.

    1. Illusionary Counter should be on a 10 second cooldown (8s while traited) and the torment on trigger should be reduced to 3 stacks.

    Buff drasticly the auto then because scepter general output is really low.

    1. Mantra cooldowns and effects need to be reworked.
      • Mantra of Recovery: 20 seconds cooldown

    Actually never used...

    • Mantra of Distraction: 24 seconds cooldown, reduce Diversion recharge time to 10 seconds after fully charging

    People will just switch back to no lock builds, didn't care.

    • Mantra of Pain: 10 seconds cooldown

    Didn't mind.

    • Mantra of Resolve: 20 seconds cooldown, 3 condis removed after fully charging, 2 condis removed per charge

    Rarely used ...

    • Mantra of Concentration: 30 seconds cooldown

    Never used ...

    1. Remove the stunbreak on Elusive Mind and remove the exhaustion.

    Agree it's better to just have a condiclear trait.

    @mortrialus.3062 said:
    The condition damage aspect ignores toughness

    Actually toughness isn't really usefull even against direct damage build :p

    @AngelLovesFredrik.6741 said:
    As you can see in https://twitch.tv/lardoo112/clip/SquareNeighborlyDolphinGrammarKing?filter=clips&range=all&sort=time this clip, the illusion build 1v2s Herald + S/D core thief. This is against Pain + Torben, two VERY good players on their respective classes. This could not have been done on Domination.
    @AngelLovesFredrik.6741 said:
    Mesmer currently has arguably the strongest 1v1 build, or well among the highest tiers. As seen in the EU mAT where Ritu literally farmed every other duelist on the sides.

    Yeah so for the explanation : players just didn't get used to see lock mesmers and didn't build against it.
    I can ensure you that once they wake up, it will have the same utility as it has thoses past years.
    For example take a scrapper with some reflects (and regular stab). He will easy perma cap the point as the build in mAt use 80% projectile attacks to put pressure.
    Take a SB with and adapted build (more condiclear, reflects on block.) same results. etc.
    The only thing that make ritu carry his team in the mAt is the ennemy team thinking they can kill a defensive lock build so they lose time Xv1 ing him. (ofc he play well but there weren't some counter build in front.)
    Can't wait for suiss tournament to highlight the adaptations between matchs.

    @praqtos.9035 said :
    Chaos interruption in any build is a noob carry trait and carry bad players, especially with condi mirage or chrono bunker.

    Or it's just that in this no-condi meta, nobody run condiclear anymore (or very few) so immobilize and condi builds can get some use.
    During condi meta, immobilize someone more than 1 sec never happened.

    No, until now you only say traits/skills don't need nerf and other stuff is underpowered/useless/ has no reward because you say so and that you don't know Powermesmers in Top100 using it is your only argument (you don't know one doesn't even mean there is none. And i am very sure you are wrong, but i will ask him, i give you a private message after he answered, i don't think that needs to be in this thread). And even in case there would be none it doesn't prove that it is unplayable/ useless, it just means there is easier/ stronger stuff you can play that's why ppl who "tryhard" don't play it.

    There is no valid argument based on facts and logic from you i remember, just defiant disagrees based on your subjective view. Or better, the few arguments not only subjective, defiant phrases you had, were obviously wrong. Example: Ofc good player cover their important skills way better but the mesmer himself can counter that too. So it is clearly not impossible to interrupt big skills on good player, it is just harder than vs bad player.
    I meanwhile wrote tons of arguments really explaining why i think what i think. You can convince me that i am wrong when you have one logical argument based on facts, not obviously or logically wrong and not only extremely subjective "i say so that's why it is so"- phrases.

    The montage was never an argument for my balance suggestions it was only an argument to tell you that it is wrong when you say it is unplayable or useless in high rankes when at least one Mesmer does play it in P3/Leg. One counterexample here is enough to prove your pretty absolute statement wrong.

    With Lost Time i agreed to shadowpass not to you.

    Your skill lvl was not an argument to the topic it was an argument on how good or bad you can read the skill lvl of ppl by only watching montages. I never said you are the worst mesmer in the game, i only said that you are clearly worse than top player and that would be easy to see even in a 10 mins montage cherry picked from a whole year of playing. It wasn't an insult, please don't get mad or hurt about it. Most player are not on top lvl, me neither.

    For now i am out of that thread, i said everything i had to say to Powermesmer and Rev balanced several times already. Until now none of you (viquing, shadowpass), who i would put on the both extreme sides of the opinion-scale had an argument could convince me until now but i have no problem to change my mind in case some appear. I don't care for any class in particular, i just want a less noobfriendly, less braindead meta for all classes without nerfing skillbased builds out of viability or buff them into noobfriendly state, so the game distinguishes between good and bad players way more again.

    If I never see a mesmer running power block with more than 400 matchs and some At each seasons he is very well hidden.

    i say so that's why it is so

    Really ? You want to count the number of "I say it so that's it is so" in your threads versus mine ?

    Your skill lvl was not an argument to the topic it was an argument on how good or bad you can read the skill lvl of ppl by only watching montages.

    And you are better than me at reading skill lvl of people in vid ? I don't get mad at it but I'm curious about how are you persuaded that you can read skill better than other ?
    You just seem to confound skilled with efficient. And again you just seem to defend the "I play tennis with my feet because it's skilled", do you see a lot of that in tennis tournament ?
    Again to be a good player for me, the first step is to use all the tools available, not to posh some because it's efficient (which is very subjective anyway.).

    Your arguments resumed :
    1) Power block is fine, CI&other rupts trait are noob carry. <= Subjective.
    2) There is 1 mes who manage to make a montage on a fun build with power block. <= Objective but bad prove because you can did it with basically every traits and builds. I mean how saying it's unefficient is false considering a montage is a very little part of what really happen.

    To point 1 I answer that power block can do something only when rupt key skills like you said but :

    • Even when rupting key skills, the opponnent can dodge/condiclear/use other skill. <= that's what I call unefficient. <= Subjective.
    • Power block and CI take exactly the same skill to trigger.
    • Key skills are very unlikelly to be rupt in a realistic situation vs good opponent. <= Objective : just watch how much signet rez failed on a good match, it's far to be under 50% and the most case it's rupt is because thief removing stab, not mesmer. Just look how every pro LoS to cast skills like heal, cover them with stab or invul etc.

    To point 2 I answer that :

    • A montage only highlight the beautiful moment of a player gameplay. Objective : it's basically the definition of a montage.
    • 1 player doing a montage with power block isn't representative. Subjective

    No i am not just stating, i explain WHY i think something is op and something not. There is a big difference between that and what you do most of the time. And the few times you explained why you think what you think your arguments are objectively wrong (and i gave you examples for that in my last post to you). If you wanna have a big dispute about who of us did better in explaining and list arguments then lets do it in private message from now, because it will not help this topic.

    As mentioned i send you a private message when i get an answer but i am not talking about one single montage (you can find a lot pvp videos on that channel, enough to get a realistic impression about the real skill lvl of the player and the abilities of the build he is playing). I more talk about his average rating over all seasons being in P3/ Legend from what i remember. And it was only an answer to your absolute statement that it is impossible to play that build constantly in higher ranks. Because that is exactly what he is doing. In the end videos/streams of other players were never relevant for any balance suggestions i made, means it doesn't even matter. We can talk about that in private message any further if you like because i don't think this helps the topic either.

    I never said anything about who is better in reading the game, i only talked about your and my player skill lvl compared to top player. The difference would be easy to see by everyone with a bit of game and class knowledge, even when you or me make a 10 mins montage cherry picked from one year of playing. I never said i am exceptionally good at reading the game. Everyone with a bit of gameknowledge can do it. It is also possible to see a difference if a montage is cut in a way to make the player look less bad than he actually is or if it is just cut to the important sequences to make the video interesting, because most ppl immediately close the video the moment they don't have big action on their screen. In streams uncut gameplay is not a problem because the live interaction with the streamer and the other viewer in chat still make it interesting.

    To say it short: I am out of this thread (really now), if you want to talk to me any further than do it with private message, because all we now talk about isn't helping this thread anymore. If you quote me in this thread i will not answer back in this thread. Just lets do private message if you feel any need to talk to me more. Thanks.

    "playing revenant is borderline exploiting" - up condimirage 2k18

  • mortrialus.3062mortrialus.3062 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Mantra of Recovery has seen use and still sees occasional use. However the 2.25 second cast required to recast it a second time is extreme while in combat and that justifies the extreme healing per second. I feel like this whole point from shadowpass poking fun at me breaking down how extreme healing turret is and has always been.

    The Psychomancer: Mesmer Elite Specialization Suggestion

  • Are there a lot of mantra mesmers running around cheesing this "brain dead, nigh-unmissable, 1-shot combo"?

    I think I've only seen it once. The enemy mes just stopped behind cover for several seconds, preparing mantras I guess, and then boom, my teammate and I were both insta'd. I actually thought they were lagging or afk. I'm not blaming the build though, as I simply had no clue what was about to happen. I was on notice from then on what sort of build the opponent was running. Haven't seen it since though. Still see more Memebeasts, which aren't even too common.

    I don't think there's any question Shiro-Glint Heralds are still FOTM. But even if mantra mes got nerfed, how much of the player base would it affect? Honest question, because I know my experience hardly represents all.

  • Delofasht.4231Delofasht.4231 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 28, 2019

    I have always and will always main a Mesmer on my accounts, but want to say that I agree that the huge range of easy one shot builds from many of the professions is uninteresting. It doesn’t feel good to be killed without getting a chance to respond, regardless of the profession. Worse yet, it gets boring really quickly when you killing someone instantly without response all the time. So while this is annoying, people bore of it after playing for awhile and go play something else (usually a different game).

    Counter play design is the hallmark of good gameplay, and it has gone back all the way to original fighting games, where the outcry against one shot or high damage, low effort moves was brought in line such that they were easier to avoid or counter. That really should apply to what we have in this game as well, but it is reliant on making sure that damage abilities end up staggered a bit such that they cannot happen all at the same time, or that the abilities that can do not end up being an instant kill.

    For Mesmer, suggestions have been given for how to rework both visual clutter and changes to how damage is applied in burst to create delays. In short, remove reliance on clones for damage and distraction, make them only a visual indicator of the potential damage of the Mesmer (untargetable, unkillable, no health bars, just pretty sparkly generators). I could write up a full description of how to do this but it would get long and need to be done in steps, on the programming side of things it is just copy and paste code from one ability to another, and adjust traits to redirect from on hit of clones to on next Mesmer attack apply effect. This would decouple the damage burst or condition spam being from multiple sources to just the Mesmer (which would make many runes and sigil work appropriately for the profession) and reduce the visual clutter of health bars. Burst damage need only be reduced by lowering the effect of multipliers, which are always the major issue in any game, reduce them for each profession, not just those doing the most burst right now. Increase sustained damage by a bit to compensate for PvE, but this burst needs to be reduced across the board, game is unfun being so highly reliant on bursts.

  • Vieux P.1238Vieux P.1238 Member ✭✭✭✭

    All mesmer haters will not be happy until this happens.
    https://img.memecdn.com/there-can-be-only-one_o_1120567.webp
    Get the picture?

    Winter Nerf is coming!

  • Crab Fear.1624Crab Fear.1624 Member ✭✭✭✭

    If was 7 years or weeks, it is a mechanic that needs to go. Replace it with something good not broken.

    Soon™ ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

  • praqtos.9035praqtos.9035 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Crab Fear.1624 said:
    If was 7 years or weeks, it is a mechanic that needs to go. Replace it with something good not broken.

    Then dont be a hypocrite and stop defending broken OP mechanic of your own class then ? (dont think its not obvious you want to ping all nerf threads as you did with holo thread so its get on top).
    You cant even tell what is "broken". But on side note it would be nice to have another rework on mesmer gs/traitlines. Everyone would be so jealous :D

  • Cyric.7813Cyric.7813 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 4, 2019

    @DigiQWill.6378 said:

    @Lilyanna.9361 said:
    So my issue is with the glitterbomb class is clutter. Not the skills or traits, or not even just the elites anymore at this point. It's all of the stupid clutter that this stupid class causes when there are MULTIPLE MESMERS on the same thing. Even with a high end pc is skill delay and busy effects is BONKERS. AND never have I ran into a class that actively slams that much clutter on a computer screen in my life.

    The concept in itself is disgusting. I VERY MUCH prefer gw1 mesmers because at least there is ONE person there doing those interrupts/Mana drain/DOTs. I don't think any pvp/fighting game had as much clones/phantasms on the screen as mesmer does in general. Yes, there are clone classes/characters, but I've never seen it so spammy. Honestly, their theme and concept is awful in a PvP sense.

    I've fought double Condition Mirages on my rather medium-end gaming laptop (mainly a work laptop, it's not optimized to game) with a specific Graphics setup for PvP. In that scenario, I never got a lag because of too many renders. Not to mention I was also a condition Mirage spewing out my own three clones with effects.

    You may want to solely reduce your quality of video effects if you have problems with Mesmers in general. I even got a friend to send me an armada of 10+ phantasms as chronomancer and didn't experience lag (that experience though gave me slight trauma at just how scary can 10 AIs be XD ). It's not "unhealthy", it's a new concept you have to get used to - veteran and newby alike. Try playing the class a bit. You'll see that those clones die to anything.

    And I'm a Ranger main that would love to see Sic Em die even if I'm playing it in PvP. 60k rapid fire combos are nuts and worse than one shot mirage at its prime because of the exasperatingly long range it can do it.

    As for OP: you have a L2P issue. Although I do agree that Herald is busted damage-wise, play a condition build and see just how they melt easily. For one shot Mirage... you got memed, man, I'm sorry for you. At least one shot Chronomancer is minimally easier to pull off XD - from an ex-Mesmer main.

    Oh it s 60k now, who ll write more?

  • Crab Fear.1624Crab Fear.1624 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    @Crab Fear.1624 said:
    If was 7 years or weeks, it is a mechanic that needs to go. Replace it with something good not broken.

    Then dont be a hypocrite and stop defending broken OP mechanic of your own class then ? (dont think its not obvious you want to ping all nerf threads as you did with holo thread so its get on top).
    You cant even tell what is "broken". But on side note it would be nice to have another rework on mesmer gs/traitlines. Everyone would be so jealous :D

    I defended a broke mechanic? Quote me.

    I am pinging nerf threads so holo get on top? That may be true but someone bumped it and I replied.

    You replied enough on it to think that it would matter.

    I don't know what is broken?

    If we are talking about threads I started I list the reason, and in the case of this one Shadow pass has thoroughly explained them.

    His explanations have been my own experience so I am confirming my agreement on the topic.

    Soon™ ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

  • praqtos.9035praqtos.9035 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 4, 2019

    @Crab Fear.1624 said:

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    @Crab Fear.1624 said:
    If was 7 years or weeks, it is a mechanic that needs to go. Replace it with something good not broken.

    Then dont be a hypocrite and stop defending broken OP mechanic of your own class then ? (dont think its not obvious you want to ping all nerf threads as you did with holo thread so its get on top).
    You cant even tell what is "broken". But on side note it would be nice to have another rework on mesmer gs/traitlines. Everyone would be so jealous :D

    I defended a broke mechanic? Quote me.

    "Give me back my damage and I'll take executioner and basilisk."
    Context is pretty clear: you are not willing to give up on broken DS improv combo. The other thief main agree with me, while you are not.Why you arent with me to fix this busted combo?
    I replied to you on that thread, play DE if you want damage, top3 on EU is a DE btw.

    I am pinging nerf threads so holo get on top? That may be true but someone bumped it and I replied.

    You replied enough on it to think that it would matter.

    Most of the thread is not even focused on the subject so it hard to believe it would matter.

    I don't know what is broken?

    You didnt say what exactly is broken, at all. "yeah its just broken" what is broken... who knows...

    If we are talking about threads I started I list the reason, and in the case of this one Shadow pass has thoroughly explained them.
    His explanations have been my own experience so I am confirming my agreement on the topic.

    And been disproved by many people and buried himself with his own words.
    How come Shorts dies to 1400 rated holo(that had UTILITY GOGGLES,RIFLE TURRET,photon wall) with such "broken OP" build? Do you want me to link you a streamer(he is good btw) and you will see how many glaring weaknesses it has? You will also find there sic em ranger that deleted him through downedstate, the rev who survive 1x4 while mesmer was evaporated by thief/rev.
    If they would nerf power mesmer again, then that would mean only 1 thing: no class should be ever be able to "one-shot" regardless how much effort it takes or that you take full offensive builds and have to use either 1-2 skills to kill or 7-10 skills to do the same. Every single class can oneshot and all of them would need to be nerfed, especially these who posses the stealth - thief/ranger/engi.
    I'm pretty much waiting for the patch just as others, depends on the changes I will leave or stay for a while. People will continue to quit the game with terrible balance.

  • Crab Fear.1624Crab Fear.1624 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    @Crab Fear.1624 said:

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    @Crab Fear.1624 said:
    If was 7 years or weeks, it is a mechanic that needs to go. Replace it with something good not broken.

    Then dont be a hypocrite and stop defending broken OP mechanic of your own class then ? (dont think its not obvious you want to ping all nerf threads as you did with holo thread so its get on top).
    You cant even tell what is "broken". But on side note it would be nice to have another rework on mesmer gs/traitlines. Everyone would be so jealous :D

    I defended a broke mechanic? Quote me.

    "Give me back my damage and I'll take executioner and basilisk."
    Context is pretty clear: you are not willing to give up on broken DS improv combo. I replied to you on that thread, play DE if you want damage, top3 on EU is a DE btw :)

    No, i just want my damage back.

    There is no defense.

    Soon™ ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

  • praqtos.9035praqtos.9035 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 4, 2019

    @Crab Fear.1624 said:

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    @Crab Fear.1624 said:

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    @Crab Fear.1624 said:
    If was 7 years or weeks, it is a mechanic that needs to go. Replace it with something good not broken.

    Then dont be a hypocrite and stop defending broken OP mechanic of your own class then ? (dont think its not obvious you want to ping all nerf threads as you did with holo thread so its get on top).
    You cant even tell what is "broken". But on side note it would be nice to have another rework on mesmer gs/traitlines. Everyone would be so jealous :D

    I defended a broke mechanic? Quote me.

    "Give me back my damage and I'll take executioner and basilisk."
    Context is pretty clear: you are not willing to give up on broken DS improv combo. I replied to you on that thread, play DE if you want damage, top3 on EU is a DE btw :)

    No, i just want my damage back.

    There is no defense.

    Then how your comment was relevant to "DS/rampage thread"? I clearly see exact this meaning what I wrote but if you insist that your comment is meaningless and irrelevant, like most of your posts, ok.
    Part of it contains in my answer to you in other thread but I'll quote Sind himself:

    I mean rifle 4 acts almost the same so wouldnt differ, dash daredevil has almost same mobility too so in order to get thief away from decap/+1 you need to nerf essentially any source of mobility of thief.
    Surely if the goal is to make thief into a brawler/rev foster thief needs a massive overhaul. Doesnt matter if thief has weaker damage when you dictate the whole map due to the mobility.

    Now stop with derailing

  • Crab Fear.1624Crab Fear.1624 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 4, 2019

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    @Crab Fear.1624 said:

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    @Crab Fear.1624 said:

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    @Crab Fear.1624 said:
    If was 7 years or weeks, it is a mechanic that needs to go. Replace it with something good not broken.

    Then dont be a hypocrite and stop defending broken OP mechanic of your own class then ? (dont think its not obvious you want to ping all nerf threads as you did with holo thread so its get on top).
    You cant even tell what is "broken". But on side note it would be nice to have another rework on mesmer gs/traitlines. Everyone would be so jealous :D

    I defended a broke mechanic? Quote me.

    "Give me back my damage and I'll take executioner and basilisk."
    Context is pretty clear: you are not willing to give up on broken DS improv combo. I replied to you on that thread, play DE if you want damage, top3 on EU is a DE btw :)

    No, i just want my damage back.

    There is no defense.

    Then how your comment was relevant to "DS/rampage thread"? I clearly see exact this meaning what I wrote but if you insist that your comment is meaningless and irrelevant, like most of your posts, ok.
    Part of it contains in my answer to you in other thread but I'll quote Sind himself:

    I mean rifle 4 acts almost the same so wouldnt differ, dash daredevil has almost same mobility too so in order to get thief away from decap/+1 you need to nerf essentially any source of mobility of thief.
    Surely if the goal is to make thief into a brawler/rev foster thief needs a massive overhaul. Doesnt matter if thief has weaker damage when you dictate the whole map due to the mobility.

    Now stop with derailing

    Okay.

    Instant cast ranged cc
    Chain cc
    Casting spell while casting cc
    Screen clutter with all the phantasm clones
    Evasive as hell
    Mobile as hell
    Stealth
    DE target
    Hit hard, they dont Need to one shot, they can cc, hit, cc run, cc hit, stealth, blur, distant evade, port, cc hit.
    You can run mantra on hybrid too.
    Mesmer not at mat is not an argument.

    Mmkay?

    Soon™ ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

  • praqtos.9035praqtos.9035 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Crab Fear.1624 said:

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    @Crab Fear.1624 said:

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    @Crab Fear.1624 said:

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    @Crab Fear.1624 said:
    If was 7 years or weeks, it is a mechanic that needs to go. Replace it with something good not broken.

    Then dont be a hypocrite and stop defending broken OP mechanic of your own class then ? (dont think its not obvious you want to ping all nerf threads as you did with holo thread so its get on top).
    You cant even tell what is "broken". But on side note it would be nice to have another rework on mesmer gs/traitlines. Everyone would be so jealous :D

    I defended a broke mechanic? Quote me.

    "Give me back my damage and I'll take executioner and basilisk."
    Context is pretty clear: you are not willing to give up on broken DS improv combo. I replied to you on that thread, play DE if you want damage, top3 on EU is a DE btw :)

    No, i just want my damage back.

    There is no defense.

    Then how your comment was relevant to "DS/rampage thread"? I clearly see exact this meaning what I wrote but if you insist that your comment is meaningless and irrelevant, like most of your posts, ok.
    Part of it contains in my answer to you in other thread but I'll quote Sind himself:

    I mean rifle 4 acts almost the same so wouldnt differ, dash daredevil has almost same mobility too so in order to get thief away from decap/+1 you need to nerf essentially any source of mobility of thief.
    Surely if the goal is to make thief into a brawler/rev foster thief needs a massive overhaul. Doesnt matter if thief has weaker damage when you dictate the whole map due to the mobility.

    Now stop with derailing

    Okay.

    Instant cast ranged cc
    Chain cc
    Casting spell while casting cc
    Screen clutter with all the phantasm clones
    Evasive as hell
    Mobile as hell
    Stealth
    DE target
    Hit hard, they dont Need to one shot, they can cc, hit, cc run, cc hit, stealth, blur, distant evade, port, cc hit.
    You can run mantra on hybrid too.
    Mesmer not at mat is not an argument.

    Mmkay?

    If I would list everything any class capable of and exaggerate asf as you just did, would it look like a good argument?

  • Crab Fear.1624Crab Fear.1624 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    @Crab Fear.1624 said:

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    @Crab Fear.1624 said:

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    @Crab Fear.1624 said:

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    @Crab Fear.1624 said:
    If was 7 years or weeks, it is a mechanic that needs to go. Replace it with something good not broken.

    Then dont be a hypocrite and stop defending broken OP mechanic of your own class then ? (dont think its not obvious you want to ping all nerf threads as you did with holo thread so its get on top).
    You cant even tell what is "broken". But on side note it would be nice to have another rework on mesmer gs/traitlines. Everyone would be so jealous :D

    I defended a broke mechanic? Quote me.

    "Give me back my damage and I'll take executioner and basilisk."
    Context is pretty clear: you are not willing to give up on broken DS improv combo. I replied to you on that thread, play DE if you want damage, top3 on EU is a DE btw :)

    No, i just want my damage back.

    There is no defense.

    Then how your comment was relevant to "DS/rampage thread"? I clearly see exact this meaning what I wrote but if you insist that your comment is meaningless and irrelevant, like most of your posts, ok.
    Part of it contains in my answer to you in other thread but I'll quote Sind himself:

    I mean rifle 4 acts almost the same so wouldnt differ, dash daredevil has almost same mobility too so in order to get thief away from decap/+1 you need to nerf essentially any source of mobility of thief.
    Surely if the goal is to make thief into a brawler/rev foster thief needs a massive overhaul. Doesnt matter if thief has weaker damage when you dictate the whole map due to the mobility.

    Now stop with derailing

    Okay.

    Instant cast ranged cc
    Chain cc
    Casting spell while casting cc
    Screen clutter with all the phantasm clones
    Evasive as hell
    Mobile as hell
    Stealth
    DE target
    Hit hard, they dont Need to one shot, they can cc, hit, cc run, cc hit, stealth, blur, distant evade, port, cc hit.
    You can run mantra on hybrid too.
    Mesmer not at mat is not an argument.

    Mmkay?

    If I would list everything any class capable of and exaggerate asf as you just did, would it look like a good argument?

    This is standard, no exaggeration.

    Soon™ ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

  • praqtos.9035praqtos.9035 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 4, 2019

    @Crab Fear.1624 said:

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    @Crab Fear.1624 said:

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    @Crab Fear.1624 said:

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    @Crab Fear.1624 said:

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    @Crab Fear.1624 said:
    If was 7 years or weeks, it is a mechanic that needs to go. Replace it with something good not broken.

    Then dont be a hypocrite and stop defending broken OP mechanic of your own class then ? (dont think its not obvious you want to ping all nerf threads as you did with holo thread so its get on top).
    You cant even tell what is "broken". But on side note it would be nice to have another rework on mesmer gs/traitlines. Everyone would be so jealous :D

    I defended a broke mechanic? Quote me.

    "Give me back my damage and I'll take executioner and basilisk."
    Context is pretty clear: you are not willing to give up on broken DS improv combo. I replied to you on that thread, play DE if you want damage, top3 on EU is a DE btw :)

    No, i just want my damage back.

    There is no defense.

    Then how your comment was relevant to "DS/rampage thread"? I clearly see exact this meaning what I wrote but if you insist that your comment is meaningless and irrelevant, like most of your posts, ok.
    Part of it contains in my answer to you in other thread but I'll quote Sind himself:

    I mean rifle 4 acts almost the same so wouldnt differ, dash daredevil has almost same mobility too so in order to get thief away from decap/+1 you need to nerf essentially any source of mobility of thief.
    Surely if the goal is to make thief into a brawler/rev foster thief needs a massive overhaul. Doesnt matter if thief has weaker damage when you dictate the whole map due to the mobility.

    Now stop with derailing

    Okay.

    Instant cast ranged cc
    Chain cc
    Casting spell while casting cc
    Screen clutter with all the phantasm clones
    Evasive as hell
    Mobile as hell
    Stealth
    DE target
    Hit hard, they dont Need to one shot, they can cc, hit, cc run, cc hit, stealth, blur, distant evade, port, cc hit.
    You can run mantra on hybrid too.
    Mesmer not at mat is not an argument.

    Mmkay?

    If I would list everything any class capable of and exaggerate asf as you just did, would it look like a good argument?

    This is standard exaggeration.

    If I remove "phantasm and clones", "mantras" and replace "mesmer is not on mat" on thief, it would be more looking like truth than what you wrote. You legit just complained about 6/6/6/6/6 build that has everything and 10 utilities at once...
    Actually from your comment it seems your rating is like 1300?
    When I'll make thief nerf thread I will repost you, be sure about that xD

  • Crab Fear.1624Crab Fear.1624 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    @Crab Fear.1624 said:

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    @Crab Fear.1624 said:

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    @Crab Fear.1624 said:

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    @Crab Fear.1624 said:

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    @Crab Fear.1624 said:
    If was 7 years or weeks, it is a mechanic that needs to go. Replace it with something good not broken.

    Then dont be a hypocrite and stop defending broken OP mechanic of your own class then ? (dont think its not obvious you want to ping all nerf threads as you did with holo thread so its get on top).
    You cant even tell what is "broken". But on side note it would be nice to have another rework on mesmer gs/traitlines. Everyone would be so jealous :D

    I defended a broke mechanic? Quote me.

    "Give me back my damage and I'll take executioner and basilisk."
    Context is pretty clear: you are not willing to give up on broken DS improv combo. I replied to you on that thread, play DE if you want damage, top3 on EU is a DE btw :)

    No, i just want my damage back.

    There is no defense.

    Then how your comment was relevant to "DS/rampage thread"? I clearly see exact this meaning what I wrote but if you insist that your comment is meaningless and irrelevant, like most of your posts, ok.
    Part of it contains in my answer to you in other thread but I'll quote Sind himself:

    I mean rifle 4 acts almost the same so wouldnt differ, dash daredevil has almost same mobility too so in order to get thief away from decap/+1 you need to nerf essentially any source of mobility of thief.
    Surely if the goal is to make thief into a brawler/rev foster thief needs a massive overhaul. Doesnt matter if thief has weaker damage when you dictate the whole map due to the mobility.

    Now stop with derailing

    Okay.

    Instant cast ranged cc
    Chain cc
    Casting spell while casting cc
    Screen clutter with all the phantasm clones
    Evasive as hell
    Mobile as hell
    Stealth
    DE target
    Hit hard, they dont Need to one shot, they can cc, hit, cc run, cc hit, stealth, blur, distant evade, port, cc hit.
    You can run mantra on hybrid too.
    Mesmer not at mat is not an argument.

    Mmkay?

    If I would list everything any class capable of and exaggerate asf as you just did, would it look like a good argument?

    This is standard exaggeration.

    If I remove "phantasm and clones", "mantras" and replace "mesmer is not on mat" on thief, it would be more looking like truth than what you wrote. You legit just complained about 6/6/6/6/6 build that has everything and 10 utilities at once...
    Actually from your comment it seems your rating is like 1300?
    When I'll make thief nerf thread I will repost you, be sure about that xD

    When you have no argument your tactics are to insult.

    My potato is a little bland, so thanks for the salt.

    Soon™ ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

  • praqtos.9035praqtos.9035 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Crab Fear.1624 said:

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    @Crab Fear.1624 said:

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    @Crab Fear.1624 said:

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    @Crab Fear.1624 said:

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    @Crab Fear.1624 said:

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    @Crab Fear.1624 said:
    If was 7 years or weeks, it is a mechanic that needs to go. Replace it with something good not broken.

    Then dont be a hypocrite and stop defending broken OP mechanic of your own class then ? (dont think its not obvious you want to ping all nerf threads as you did with holo thread so its get on top).
    You cant even tell what is "broken". But on side note it would be nice to have another rework on mesmer gs/traitlines. Everyone would be so jealous :D

    I defended a broke mechanic? Quote me.

    "Give me back my damage and I'll take executioner and basilisk."
    Context is pretty clear: you are not willing to give up on broken DS improv combo. I replied to you on that thread, play DE if you want damage, top3 on EU is a DE btw :)

    No, i just want my damage back.

    There is no defense.

    Then how your comment was relevant to "DS/rampage thread"? I clearly see exact this meaning what I wrote but if you insist that your comment is meaningless and irrelevant, like most of your posts, ok.
    Part of it contains in my answer to you in other thread but I'll quote Sind himself:

    I mean rifle 4 acts almost the same so wouldnt differ, dash daredevil has almost same mobility too so in order to get thief away from decap/+1 you need to nerf essentially any source of mobility of thief.
    Surely if the goal is to make thief into a brawler/rev foster thief needs a massive overhaul. Doesnt matter if thief has weaker damage when you dictate the whole map due to the mobility.

    Now stop with derailing

    Okay.

    Instant cast ranged cc
    Chain cc
    Casting spell while casting cc
    Screen clutter with all the phantasm clones
    Evasive as hell
    Mobile as hell
    Stealth
    DE target
    Hit hard, they dont Need to one shot, they can cc, hit, cc run, cc hit, stealth, blur, distant evade, port, cc hit.
    You can run mantra on hybrid too.
    Mesmer not at mat is not an argument.

    Mmkay?

    If I would list everything any class capable of and exaggerate asf as you just did, would it look like a good argument?

    This is standard exaggeration.

    If I remove "phantasm and clones", "mantras" and replace "mesmer is not on mat" on thief, it would be more looking like truth than what you wrote. You legit just complained about 6/6/6/6/6 build that has everything and 10 utilities at once...
    Actually from your comment it seems your rating is like 1300?
    When I'll make thief nerf thread I will repost you, be sure about that xD

    When you have no argument your tactics are to insult.

    My potato is a little bland, so thanks for the salt.

    Well, your tactic is enourmous exaggeration which are typical for pretty much bad players. Their opponents have infinite amount of everything, so they cant win, thats your case.

  • Crab Fear.1624Crab Fear.1624 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    @Crab Fear.1624 said:

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    @Crab Fear.1624 said:

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    @Crab Fear.1624 said:

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    @Crab Fear.1624 said:

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    @Crab Fear.1624 said:

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    @Crab Fear.1624 said:
    If was 7 years or weeks, it is a mechanic that needs to go. Replace it with something good not broken.

    Then dont be a hypocrite and stop defending broken OP mechanic of your own class then ? (dont think its not obvious you want to ping all nerf threads as you did with holo thread so its get on top).
    You cant even tell what is "broken". But on side note it would be nice to have another rework on mesmer gs/traitlines. Everyone would be so jealous :D

    I defended a broke mechanic? Quote me.

    "Give me back my damage and I'll take executioner and basilisk."
    Context is pretty clear: you are not willing to give up on broken DS improv combo. I replied to you on that thread, play DE if you want damage, top3 on EU is a DE btw :)

    No, i just want my damage back.

    There is no defense.

    Then how your comment was relevant to "DS/rampage thread"? I clearly see exact this meaning what I wrote but if you insist that your comment is meaningless and irrelevant, like most of your posts, ok.
    Part of it contains in my answer to you in other thread but I'll quote Sind himself:

    I mean rifle 4 acts almost the same so wouldnt differ, dash daredevil has almost same mobility too so in order to get thief away from decap/+1 you need to nerf essentially any source of mobility of thief.
    Surely if the goal is to make thief into a brawler/rev foster thief needs a massive overhaul. Doesnt matter if thief has weaker damage when you dictate the whole map due to the mobility.

    Now stop with derailing

    Okay.

    Instant cast ranged cc
    Chain cc
    Casting spell while casting cc
    Screen clutter with all the phantasm clones
    Evasive as hell
    Mobile as hell
    Stealth
    DE target
    Hit hard, they dont Need to one shot, they can cc, hit, cc run, cc hit, stealth, blur, distant evade, port, cc hit.
    You can run mantra on hybrid too.
    Mesmer not at mat is not an argument.

    Mmkay?

    If I would list everything any class capable of and exaggerate asf as you just did, would it look like a good argument?

    This is standard exaggeration.

    If I remove "phantasm and clones", "mantras" and replace "mesmer is not on mat" on thief, it would be more looking like truth than what you wrote. You legit just complained about 6/6/6/6/6 build that has everything and 10 utilities at once...
    Actually from your comment it seems your rating is like 1300?
    When I'll make thief nerf thread I will repost you, be sure about that xD

    When you have no argument your tactics are to insult.

    My potato is a little bland, so thanks for the salt.

    Well, your tactic is enourmous exaggeration which are typical for pretty much bad players. Their opponents have infinite amount of everything, so they cant win, thats your case.

    Thanks for the bump. We need more eyes on this.

    Soon™ ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

  • shadowpass.4236shadowpass.4236 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @praqtos.9035 said:
    Sindrener existence proves that thief is far away from being useless trash as thieves cry.

    Zeromis' existence proves that mesmer is far away from being useless trash as mesmers cry.

  • Crab Fear.1624Crab Fear.1624 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 4, 2019

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    @ZhouX.8742 said:
    don't worry crab is a silver/gold1 player from [BGW] so it's understandable why he complains about almost every class

    He is a salty thief, he want all classes nerfed and thief buffed. Sindrener existence proves that thief is far away from being useless trash as thieves cry.
    There is nothing to worry about at all, he is nothing but a troll.
    With fishy screenshots, 8500 lb auto, on 2100 armor? Pretty unrealistic

    I photoshopped the video obviously lmao.

    Soon™ ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

  • praqtos.9035praqtos.9035 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @praqtos.9035 said:
    Sindrener existence proves that thief is far away from being useless trash as thieves cry.

    Zeromis' existence proves that mesmer is far away from being useless trash as mesmers cry.

    As if there ever been any rival for team USA, regardless of what zeromis play they will win even without him. Good example /s

  • praqtos.9035praqtos.9035 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 4, 2019

    @Crab Fear.1624 said:

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    @ZhouX.8742 said:
    don't worry crab is a silver/gold1 player from [BGW] so it's understandable why he complains about almost every class

    He is a salty thief, he want all classes nerfed and thief buffed. Sindrener existence proves that thief is far away from being useless trash as thieves cry.
    There is nothing to worry about at all, he is nothing but a troll.
    With fishy screenshots, 8500 lb auto, on 2100 armor? Pretty unrealistic

    I photoshopped the video obviously lmao.

    Max what I'v got hit even on mesmer was 6200 simply because no one is running full yolo without WS. I'm actually surprised it does that much with just LB auto but that build is ultra unviable.

  • Lilyanna.9361Lilyanna.9361 Member ✭✭✭✭

    So I ain't gonna argue mechanics or anything with folks.

    I'm just going to point out here that there has been a massive influx of of both revs and daze mesmers in both WvW and Pvp. Went up against an army of shatter mesmers and Revs with three other buddies yesterday night in wvw. In unranked pvp there is either two revs, two shatter mes or a mix of both with other fairly high dps classes. The only ones that were able to survive the burst was a scrapper if there was one on the team.

    In ranked pvp we all go in, the highest ranking of us all is in p3 spellbreaker/reaper main, then one bud is p1-2 druid main, I swivel between g3/p1 because I main tank/support classes so Fb/Scrapper and laziest when it comes to climbing, last friend is a thief/war main in p2. Me and the druid main have seen a LARGE influx of shatter mes/ rev, while in p2-p3 folks are lucky to escape because at that point everyone knows their main well enough.

    Idk if other people has seen this for the past couple weeks, maybe even month but if I'm seeing this same comp in unranked, ranked, and WvW across MANY instances then something is clearly up. People abusing the noob stomper? Sure but Rev is certainly not a low skilled class and daze mes is kinda cancer no matter what level of play tbh. All I'm saying is Anet needs to hit the RIGHT things, give proper compensation on both classes and bring them down to healthy levels so all the other specs can fall in line, because at this point stacking toughness means NOTHING in this day and age.

  • Stand The Wall.6987Stand The Wall.6987 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Lilyanna.9361 said:
    because at this point stacking toughness means NOTHING in this day and age.

    yep, theres too many kitten + damage mods.

    Te lazla otstra.

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