Mirage Grandmaster Traits — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Mirage Grandmaster Traits

Delofasht.4231Delofasht.4231 Member ✭✭✭
edited June 17, 2019 in Mesmer

Curious what other think of the options...

The minor GM trait seems odd in that it feels like it could be baked directly into Mirage Cloak itself.
Infinite Horizon becoming the minor would make the remaining traits much more interesting for builds (without massively increasing the damage or utility of builds).
Elusive Mind having the exhaustion for such a long period feels extremely lackluster and simply gives up too much damage in general.
Dune Cloak is nearly exclusively for condition damage builds, but for all the usual builds seems to be a less good option than Infinite Horizon (which is why making it minor would be such a good choice).

Moving and adjusting Mirage Cloak and making Infinite Horizon the minor would free up a slot though, so perhaps making a power option for a grandmaster major would work. I suggest one that interacts with shattering mirrors to increase the damage of your next non basic attack ability, so that using the mirror creating utilities and Desert Distortion together for a bunch of mirrors means doing a bit more damage with direct damage. Such an ability could be called Through the Looking Glass and also affect the damage of each of your clones when activated as well, this makes interactions between the player and usage of their clones a bit more interesting. This also decouples the damage of Mirage from condition damage a little and opens up the gameplay (which being telegraphed a bit and somewhat able to be counter played in PvP or WvW scenarios).

Basically, while the damage for condition damage users is present and strong, for power it is a bit lacking. Increasing the damage and making it require skill to use and play around would open up a lot of play potential.

Does anyone else have thoughts on adding or rearranging some traits?

<1

Comments

  • praqtos.9035praqtos.9035 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Without IH mirage cant work. Simple as that. Other grandmaster traits are terrible/bad to begin with.

    Does anyone else have thoughts on adding or rearranging some traits?

    It was suggested by the players to make IH a default minor trait merged with 1 of the current ones and adjust ambush damage if needed.

  • yusayu.3629yusayu.3629 Member ✭✭✭

    I also don't like how objectively necessary IH is, and feel like it should be part of the baseline Mirage (i.e. one of the Minor Traits). This would require some major rebalancing, especially for PvP, though.

    What if the replacement had something to do with interrupts, or gave Mirage some decent condi cleanse?

  • Lincolnbeard.1735Lincolnbeard.1735 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Not going to happen, this was suggested a ton of times including beta feedback, it was ignored all the way.

    The degenerate

  • Solori.6025Solori.6025 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Curunen.8729 said:
    Yes.

    • Merge Speed of Sand with baseline Mirage Cloak.
    • Move IH to Grandmaster Minor, rebalance all ambushes where necessary.
    • Make new Grandmaster Major and redesign Elusive Mind.

    ^ This..
    But you are asking Anet to be smart and do some work. So it will never ever happen

    Tingle my stingleberry

  • otto.5684otto.5684 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @praqtos.9035 said:
    Without IH mirage cant work. Simple as that. Other grandmaster traits are terrible/bad to begin with.

    Does anyone else have thoughts on adding or rearranging some traits?

    It was suggested by the players to make IH a default minor trait merged with 1 of the current ones and adjust ambush damage if needed.

    I think this is a really good idea. IH is an absolute must. It makes sense to make it base line

  • Noodle Ant.1605Noodle Ant.1605 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 16, 2019

    @Delofasht.4231 said:
    Dune Cloak is nearly exclusively for condition damage builds, but for all the usual builds seems to be a less good option than Infinite Horizon (which is why making it minor would be such a good choice).

    Might be IMO and irrelevant but Dune Cloak I think provides PvE power mirage the highest dps out of the other choices - paired with Desert Distortion (because all the other master traits are similarly useless), Distortion amusingly becomes a dmg skill since you can shatter 3 separate mirrors (which deals fair power dmg btw) and proc dune cloak 3 times. A Dune Cloak build would likely focus on mirage mirror mechanics, except that mechanic I feel anet has decided not to expand on that much.
    Besides, I think power mirage is on par with core mes (~26k) but it’s unnecessarily more confusing to play :sunglasses:, so maybe it could be addressed if such changes are made.

    pChrono (main), cWeaver and pReaper. An asura who likes snowflakes.

  • Delofasht.4231Delofasht.4231 Member ✭✭✭

    @yusayu.3629 said:
    I also don't like how objectively necessary IH is, and feel like it should be part of the baseline Mirage (i.e. one of the Minor Traits). This would require some major rebalancing, especially for PvP, though.

    What if the replacement had something to do with interrupts, or gave Mirage some decent condi cleanse?

    Some mention that IH has been suggested several times already to become a minor, which probably does mean too much work for them to adjust so much. Second option is to add some strength to the other options, which means buffs, condition cleanse could be further improved on Elusive Mind, or they could make it reduce the cooldowns of deceptions when using EM (that would make it viable and good, even with the exhaustion). Dune Cloak could straight benefit from some slight added strength... something slightly defensive, like reducing the CD on distortion by a second with each Mirage Cloak gain (should result in reducing the cooldown by maybe 10 seconds maximum)

  • Lincolnbeard.1735Lincolnbeard.1735 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Delofasht.4231 said:

    @yusayu.3629 said:
    I also don't like how objectively necessary IH is, and feel like it should be part of the baseline Mirage (i.e. one of the Minor Traits). This would require some major rebalancing, especially for PvP, though.

    What if the replacement had something to do with interrupts, or gave Mirage some decent condi cleanse?

    Some mention that IH has been suggested several times already to become a minor, which probably does mean too much work for them to adjust so much. Second option is to add some strength to the other options, which means buffs, condition cleanse could be further improved on Elusive Mind, or they could make it reduce the cooldowns of deceptions when using EM (that would make it viable and good, even with the exhaustion). Dune Cloak could straight benefit from some slight added strength... something slightly defensive, like reducing the CD on distortion by a second with each Mirage Cloak gain (should result in reducing the cooldown by maybe 10 seconds maximum)

    This, apart from your dune cloak idea, was also suggested numerous times. ANet doesn't give a kitten which I would agree if they also didn't gave one for nerfs, but they cave in to every nerf mesmer cry.

    What this game needs is a strong head on balance, a guy that doesn't give a kitten to cries and does what he thinks it's the best for the game. Luckily a guy like that is already on gw2 team, it's Izzy...
    ... And get the biased devs into some other role, looking specifically at the engie one.

    The degenerate

  • Maybe, just maybe if the mesmer weren't so disgusting to play against in pvp they would be less harsh to the class. But evasion, dodge, invis, one shot bursts, condi cleanses, TARGETING DISRUPTION (in a fcking mmorpg btw) is not enough for a class i guess. Yeah mesmer needs buff since they can still one shot from invis and go invis again and do all the other stuff.

  • Delofasht.4231Delofasht.4231 Member ✭✭✭

    @yusayu.3629 said:
    I also don't like how objectively necessary IH is, and feel like it should be part of the baseline Mirage (i.e. one of the Minor Traits). This would require some major rebalancing, especially for PvP, though.

    What if the replacement had something to do with interrupts, or gave Mirage some decent condi cleanse?

    Interrupt interactions would play well with other Mesmer lines quite well actually. I do agree that condition cleanse tends to be pretty lacking for Mesmer overall and especially so for Mirage, while we have options, often they feel like weaker versions of other professions cleanse.

    On a different note, Infinite Horizon may not be as necessary as we think, but due to that insane versatility of the trait, play often feels much worse not having it. Without it, durability of clones for PvE is diminished, which may mean less to many builds, but quite important if one isn’t running Deceptive Evasion.

    I believe the assessment we have regarding the GM traits are not wrong overall though, IH feels fitting to the profession and is almost omnipresent. Elusive Mind and Dune Cloak feel weaker or are far more niche and thus end up picked very rarely, if at all, simply due to not being versatile enough.

    Alright, more ways to adjust things: Dune Cloak could drop enemy targeting on the Mesmer, this would introduce some versatility to the trait and be useful in PvE and PvP situations; Elusive Mind could provide longer Super Speed and remove movement impairment effects in addition to cleansing one single damaging condition. Both very minor buffs that do not directly increase the damage of the profession overall.

    Could have all the ideas in the world here though, but unless an ANet dev is reading this then it probably will not matter, and even if they do the track record for changes that needed to happen (like the phantasm one) tend to take place many years after they are proposed. I gave that suggestion back before Scarlet’s War because it was easy to see how dropping triple phantasm and just using everything to stay alive while they destroyed the enemy was a thing (used to have one hell of an agressive bunker build with triple defender, lol). It only took... like 4 years before they implemented the change to phantasms, which still have a lot of restrictions on getting them into play. Realistically, we should not hope for much I suppose, but without giving them ideas we cannot expect they will come up with them.

  • Delofasht.4231Delofasht.4231 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 17, 2019

    @lordorinko.6978 said:
    Maybe, just maybe if the mesmer weren't so disgusting to play against in pvp they would be less harsh to the class. But evasion, dodge, invis, one shot bursts, condi cleanses, TARGETING DISRUPTION (in a fcking mmorpg btw) is not enough for a class i guess. Yeah mesmer needs buff since they can still one shot from invis and go invis again and do all the other stuff.

    Mesmer lacks condi cleanse heavily, unless giving up their damage with Inspiration trait line, making them not do one shot burst damage anymore. In order to do one shot burst damage, Mesmer need to use up 2 of their utility skills, be running Greatsword, the target to not have a passive block or damage reduction, and be running a specific build. Go watch the Shorts video on how it works, easy to avoid the damage, and once avoided it takes 15 to 20 seconds to line it up again while avoiding being one shot themselves. Target disruption is a non issue, use target previous target keybind when they drop target and continue on. Rather than say l2p like most people, I am willing to actually give you the quick breakdown of how to beat the thing you are struggling against, at least half the time (one shot builds tend to be 50/50 match ups regardless of skill).

    That said, if the question is, “Should big burst or CC be telegraphed in a game like this?” Yes, I believe CC should be telegraphed and have a travel time so it can be avoided, likewise, large bursts should be telegraphed for a bit longer prior to landing. Now, please try not to derail the thread. Do you have any input on the grandmaster traits and how they could be enhanced so that one single trait is not omnipresent in all game modes?

  • Lincolnbeard.1735Lincolnbeard.1735 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 17, 2019

    So much misinformation...
    One shot power shatter only has burst, has no sustain, no sustain damage, no stunbreaks(blink is used to on burst) , no condi cleanse, no disengage (blink is used on burst), 1 target break which is stealth and used to engage( torch 4), one of the lowest vigor uptime on game.
    It is by far one of the easiest professions to kill. Dodge mirror blade and you've won.

    The degenerate

  • flog.3485flog.3485 Member ✭✭✭

    Ideally the grandmaster traits should work like that imo:
    -Infinitive horizon to enhance power mirage
    -Dune cloak to enhance condi mirage
    -elusive mind for a bit more sustain

    The problem though is that elusive mind is useless as whole because of the core ability of dodging while being cc’ed, because in PvE there is not enough threats to make it seem like you want to use it, because in PvP modes getting a high amount

  • yusayu.3629yusayu.3629 Member ✭✭✭

    @lordorinko.6978 said:
    Maybe, just maybe if the mesmer weren't so disgusting to play against in pvp they would be less harsh to the class. But evasion, dodge, invis, one shot bursts, condi cleanses, TARGETING DISRUPTION (in a fcking mmorpg btw) is not enough for a class i guess. Yeah mesmer needs buff since they can still one shot from invis and go invis again and do all the other stuff.

    How do you "oneshot from invis and go invis again"? You have exactly one invis on the usual build. Torch 4. You use about 7 abilities for the instagib combo, which leaves you with one average CC, two dodges and one short-range teleport. On a class with barely any health and the ability to cleanse exactly 3 conditions IF the enemy is not dodging right that moment. Also, no, Mirage doesn't have all of that on the same build. If you have a build that incorporates all of the above and has any merit in the current PvP environment, please link it.

    @flog.3485 said:
    Ideally the grandmaster traits should work like that imo:
    -Infinitive horizon to enhance power mirage
    -Dune cloak to enhance condi mirage
    -elusive mind for a bit more sustain

    The problem though is that elusive mind is useless as whole because of the core ability of dodging while being cc’ed, because in PvE there is not enough threats to make it seem like you want to use it, because in PvP modes getting a high amount

    There'll always be traits that will be worthless in either PvP or PvE. For PvE you will always take whatever gives the most DPS, but that doesn't mean that all traits should straight-up enhance DPS. Imo IH is too much fun and fits too well with the Mirage profession to leave it as a choice. It should be built into the class. They could replace Nomad's Endurance with IH, and give Mirage some Vigor generation as a grandmaster. Then you'd have the choice between more dodges, stronger dodges & more damage when dodging. Something like "Shatter skills grant Vigor, whenever you gain Vigor generate a clone", or "After you and your clones have successfully hit 3 ambush attacks (multiple axes from a single ambush attack don't count), gain Vigor. Also, the effects of Vigor are enhanced by 30%."

  • flog.3485flog.3485 Member ✭✭✭

    @yusayu.3629 said:

    @lordorinko.6978 said:
    Maybe, just maybe if the mesmer weren't so disgusting to play against in pvp they would be less harsh to the class. But evasion, dodge, invis, one shot bursts, condi cleanses, TARGETING DISRUPTION (in a fcking mmorpg btw) is not enough for a class i guess. Yeah mesmer needs buff since they can still one shot from invis and go invis again and do all the other stuff.

    How do you "oneshot from invis and go invis again"? You have exactly one invis on the usual build. Torch 4. You use about 7 abilities for the instagib combo, which leaves you with one average CC, two dodges and one short-range teleport. On a class with barely any health and the ability to cleanse exactly 3 conditions IF the enemy is not dodging right that moment. Also, no, Mirage doesn't have all of that on the same build. If you have a build that incorporates all of the above and has any merit in the current PvP environment, please link it.

    @flog.3485 said:
    Ideally the grandmaster traits should work like that imo:
    -Infinitive horizon to enhance power mirage
    -Dune cloak to enhance condi mirage
    -elusive mind for a bit more sustain

    The problem though is that elusive mind is useless as whole because of the core ability of dodging while being cc’ed, because in PvE there is not enough threats to make it seem like you want to use it, because in PvP modes getting a high amount

    There'll always be traits that will be worthless in either PvP or PvE. For PvE you will always take whatever gives the most DPS, but that doesn't mean that all traits should straight-up enhance DPS. Imo IH is too much fun and fits too well with the Mirage profession to leave it as a choice. It should be built into the class. They could replace Nomad's Endurance with IH, and give Mirage some Vigor generation as a grandmaster. Then you'd have the choice between more dodges, stronger dodges & more damage when dodging. Something like "Shatter skills grant Vigor, whenever you gain Vigor generate a clone", or "After you and your clones have successfully hit 3 ambush attacks (multiple axes from a single ambush attack don't count), gain Vigor. Also, the effects of Vigor are enhanced by 30%."

    I could see why you would do that, but your idea sounds like pure power creep though. If we are going to make the mechanic of ambushes available to clones and phantasms as a built-in feature of the elite spec, then other nerfs need to be implemented for mirage as a whole on:
    -the free dodges when CC’ed
    -the fact that you get clones out of phantasms as well.

    My message got cut-off for some unknown reason but I also really don’t like the fact that phantasm damages are being enhanced while a phantasm at a core level is already doing what they are supposed to do. And in that regard, I am opposed to have it gain more through ambushes (without choices).

    Your proposition doesn’t make much sense to me as well. “More dodges” or “more damages when dodging” are basically the same because the more dodges you have the more damages you are going to do.

  • @flog.3485 said:

    @yusayu.3629 said:

    @lordorinko.6978 said:
    Maybe, just maybe if the mesmer weren't so disgusting to play against in pvp they would be less harsh to the class. But evasion, dodge, invis, one shot bursts, condi cleanses, TARGETING DISRUPTION (in a fcking mmorpg btw) is not enough for a class i guess. Yeah mesmer needs buff since they can still one shot from invis and go invis again and do all the other stuff.

    How do you "oneshot from invis and go invis again"? You have exactly one invis on the usual build. Torch 4. You use about 7 abilities for the instagib combo, which leaves you with one average CC, two dodges and one short-range teleport. On a class with barely any health and the ability to cleanse exactly 3 conditions IF the enemy is not dodging right that moment. Also, no, Mirage doesn't have all of that on the same build. If you have a build that incorporates all of the above and has any merit in the current PvP environment, please link it.

    @flog.3485 said:
    Ideally the grandmaster traits should work like that imo:
    -Infinitive horizon to enhance power mirage
    -Dune cloak to enhance condi mirage
    -elusive mind for a bit more sustain

    The problem though is that elusive mind is useless as whole because of the core ability of dodging while being cc’ed, because in PvE there is not enough threats to make it seem like you want to use it, because in PvP modes getting a high amount

    There'll always be traits that will be worthless in either PvP or PvE. For PvE you will always take whatever gives the most DPS, but that doesn't mean that all traits should straight-up enhance DPS. Imo IH is too much fun and fits too well with the Mirage profession to leave it as a choice. It should be built into the class. They could replace Nomad's Endurance with IH, and give Mirage some Vigor generation as a grandmaster. Then you'd have the choice between more dodges, stronger dodges & more damage when dodging. Something like "Shatter skills grant Vigor, whenever you gain Vigor generate a clone", or "After you and your clones have successfully hit 3 ambush attacks (multiple axes from a single ambush attack don't count), gain Vigor. Also, the effects of Vigor are enhanced by 30%."

    I could see why you would do that, but your idea sounds like pure power creep though. If we are going to make the mechanic of ambushes available to clones and phantasms as a built-in feature of the elite spec, then other nerfs need to be implemented for mirage as a whole on:
    -the free dodges when CC’ed
    -the fact that you get clones out of phantasms as well.

    My message got cut-off for some unknown reason but I also really don’t like the fact that phantasm damages are being enhanced while a phantasm at a core level is already doing what they are supposed to do. And in that regard, I am opposed to have it gain more through ambushes (without choices).

    Your proposition doesn’t make much sense to me as well. “More dodges” or “more damages when dodging” are basically the same because the more dodges you have the more damages you are going to do.

    Remove shatter from mirage,This is more in line with the mirage design

  • flog.3485flog.3485 Member ✭✭✭

    @ZeteCommander.4937 said:

    @flog.3485 said:

    @yusayu.3629 said:

    @lordorinko.6978 said:
    Maybe, just maybe if the mesmer weren't so disgusting to play against in pvp they would be less harsh to the class. But evasion, dodge, invis, one shot bursts, condi cleanses, TARGETING DISRUPTION (in a fcking mmorpg btw) is not enough for a class i guess. Yeah mesmer needs buff since they can still one shot from invis and go invis again and do all the other stuff.

    How do you "oneshot from invis and go invis again"? You have exactly one invis on the usual build. Torch 4. You use about 7 abilities for the instagib combo, which leaves you with one average CC, two dodges and one short-range teleport. On a class with barely any health and the ability to cleanse exactly 3 conditions IF the enemy is not dodging right that moment. Also, no, Mirage doesn't have all of that on the same build. If you have a build that incorporates all of the above and has any merit in the current PvP environment, please link it.

    @flog.3485 said:
    Ideally the grandmaster traits should work like that imo:
    -Infinitive horizon to enhance power mirage
    -Dune cloak to enhance condi mirage
    -elusive mind for a bit more sustain

    The problem though is that elusive mind is useless as whole because of the core ability of dodging while being cc’ed, because in PvE there is not enough threats to make it seem like you want to use it, because in PvP modes getting a high amount

    There'll always be traits that will be worthless in either PvP or PvE. For PvE you will always take whatever gives the most DPS, but that doesn't mean that all traits should straight-up enhance DPS. Imo IH is too much fun and fits too well with the Mirage profession to leave it as a choice. It should be built into the class. They could replace Nomad's Endurance with IH, and give Mirage some Vigor generation as a grandmaster. Then you'd have the choice between more dodges, stronger dodges & more damage when dodging. Something like "Shatter skills grant Vigor, whenever you gain Vigor generate a clone", or "After you and your clones have successfully hit 3 ambush attacks (multiple axes from a single ambush attack don't count), gain Vigor. Also, the effects of Vigor are enhanced by 30%."

    I could see why you would do that, but your idea sounds like pure power creep though. If we are going to make the mechanic of ambushes available to clones and phantasms as a built-in feature of the elite spec, then other nerfs need to be implemented for mirage as a whole on:
    -the free dodges when CC’ed
    -the fact that you get clones out of phantasms as well.

    My message got cut-off for some unknown reason but I also really don’t like the fact that phantasm damages are being enhanced while a phantasm at a core level is already doing what they are supposed to do. And in that regard, I am opposed to have it gain more through ambushes (without choices).

    Your proposition doesn’t make much sense to me as well. “More dodges” or “more damages when dodging” are basically the same because the more dodges you have the more damages you are going to do.

    Remove shatter from mirage,This is more in line with the mirage design

    Lol that will never happen. Too much traits are dependent on the shattering mechanic.

  • yusayu.3629yusayu.3629 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 18, 2019

    @flog.3485 said:

    @yusayu.3629 said:

    @lordorinko.6978 said:
    Maybe, just maybe if the mesmer weren't so disgusting to play against in pvp they would be less harsh to the class. But evasion, dodge, invis, one shot bursts, condi cleanses, TARGETING DISRUPTION (in a fcking mmorpg btw) is not enough for a class i guess. Yeah mesmer needs buff since they can still one shot from invis and go invis again and do all the other stuff.

    How do you "oneshot from invis and go invis again"? You have exactly one invis on the usual build. Torch 4. You use about 7 abilities for the instagib combo, which leaves you with one average CC, two dodges and one short-range teleport. On a class with barely any health and the ability to cleanse exactly 3 conditions IF the enemy is not dodging right that moment. Also, no, Mirage doesn't have all of that on the same build. If you have a build that incorporates all of the above and has any merit in the current PvP environment, please link it.

    @flog.3485 said:
    Ideally the grandmaster traits should work like that imo:
    -Infinitive horizon to enhance power mirage
    -Dune cloak to enhance condi mirage
    -elusive mind for a bit more sustain

    The problem though is that elusive mind is useless as whole because of the core ability of dodging while being cc’ed, because in PvE there is not enough threats to make it seem like you want to use it, because in PvP modes getting a high amount

    There'll always be traits that will be worthless in either PvP or PvE. For PvE you will always take whatever gives the most DPS, but that doesn't mean that all traits should straight-up enhance DPS. Imo IH is too much fun and fits too well with the Mirage profession to leave it as a choice. It should be built into the class. They could replace Nomad's Endurance with IH, and give Mirage some Vigor generation as a grandmaster. Then you'd have the choice between more dodges, stronger dodges & more damage when dodging. Something like "Shatter skills grant Vigor, whenever you gain Vigor generate a clone", or "After you and your clones have successfully hit 3 ambush attacks (multiple axes from a single ambush attack don't count), gain Vigor. Also, the effects of Vigor are enhanced by 30%."

    I could see why you would do that, but your idea sounds like pure power creep though. If we are going to make the mechanic of ambushes available to clones and phantasms as a built-in feature of the elite spec, then other nerfs need to be implemented for mirage as a whole on:
    -the free dodges when CC’ed
    -the fact that you get clones out of phantasms as well.

    Ofc you would need to nerf ambush attacks in general, if you were to make IH available as a base-line trait. Also, Phantasms obviously shouldn't do Ambush attacks, only clones. Phantasms are already pretty weak in PvP, though, and the fact that they eventually become clones hasn't really made them useful in PvP either.

    My message got cut-off for some unknown reason but I also really don’t like the fact that phantasm damages are being enhanced while a phantasm at a core level is already doing what they are supposed to do. And in that regard, I am opposed to have it gain more through ambushes (without choices).

    Where would Phantasms become stronger in this equation? I never said that Phantasms should perform Ambush attacks, I was only talking about clones.

    Your proposition doesn’t make much sense to me as well. “More dodges” or “more damages when dodging” are basically the same because the more dodges you have the more damages you are going to do.

    Well, kind of. You are still limited by the animation speed, especially that of your clones. But still, you could just change/buff Dune Cloak a bit.

    @ZeteCommander.4937 said:

    @flog.3485 said:

    @yusayu.3629 said:

    @lordorinko.6978 said:
    Maybe, just maybe if the mesmer weren't so disgusting to play against in pvp they would be less harsh to the class. But evasion, dodge, invis, one shot bursts, condi cleanses, TARGETING DISRUPTION (in a fcking mmorpg btw) is not enough for a class i guess. Yeah mesmer needs buff since they can still one shot from invis and go invis again and do all the other stuff.

    How do you "oneshot from invis and go invis again"? You have exactly one invis on the usual build. Torch 4. You use about 7 abilities for the instagib combo, which leaves you with one average CC, two dodges and one short-range teleport. On a class with barely any health and the ability to cleanse exactly 3 conditions IF the enemy is not dodging right that moment. Also, no, Mirage doesn't have all of that on the same build. If you have a build that incorporates all of the above and has any merit in the current PvP environment, please link it.

    @flog.3485 said:
    Ideally the grandmaster traits should work like that imo:
    -Infinitive horizon to enhance power mirage
    -Dune cloak to enhance condi mirage
    -elusive mind for a bit more sustain

    The problem though is that elusive mind is useless as whole because of the core ability of dodging while being cc’ed, because in PvE there is not enough threats to make it seem like you want to use it, because in PvP modes getting a high amount

    There'll always be traits that will be worthless in either PvP or PvE. For PvE you will always take whatever gives the most DPS, but that doesn't mean that all traits should straight-up enhance DPS. Imo IH is too much fun and fits too well with the Mirage profession to leave it as a choice. It should be built into the class. They could replace Nomad's Endurance with IH, and give Mirage some Vigor generation as a grandmaster. Then you'd have the choice between more dodges, stronger dodges & more damage when dodging. Something like "Shatter skills grant Vigor, whenever you gain Vigor generate a clone", or "After you and your clones have successfully hit 3 ambush attacks (multiple axes from a single ambush attack don't count), gain Vigor. Also, the effects of Vigor are enhanced by 30%."

    I could see why you would do that, but your idea sounds like pure power creep though. If we are going to make the mechanic of ambushes available to clones and phantasms as a built-in feature of the elite spec, then other nerfs need to be implemented for mirage as a whole on:
    -the free dodges when CC’ed
    -the fact that you get clones out of phantasms as well.

    My message got cut-off for some unknown reason but I also really don’t like the fact that phantasm damages are being enhanced while a phantasm at a core level is already doing what they are supposed to do. And in that regard, I am opposed to have it gain more through ambushes (without choices).

    Your proposition doesn’t make much sense to me as well. “More dodges” or “more damages when dodging” are basically the same because the more dodges you have the more damages you are going to do.

    Remove shatter from mirage,This is more in line with the mirage design

    But then there would need to be something else you should be able to do with your clones. Otherwise, when you're at 3 clones you'll just waste them and resummon them for no reason. If you remove shatters, you'd have to remove the 3-clone-limit imo, but the game probably couldn't handle that.

  • Delofasht.4231Delofasht.4231 Member ✭✭✭

    Interesting ideas here overall, the GM traits could be focused on dodges, as they already somewhat are.

    One point brought up is that of removing shatters for Mirage, which honestly I had never even considered. Such a change would require far more work than anything we are discussing in simply changing or adding a GM trait though, and would require tons of ideation and iteration to refine such a concept, then implementation would become troublesome. I believe it would be easier to request our GM trait balancing as a response to the changes to phantasms so as to make the elite profession more varied and interesting to play.

    Currently, Dune Cloak may not be as bad as it feels in certain builds, but it still lacks quite a bit of consistency and loses value anytime the player isn't close to the target and utilizing a Mirage Cloak. This reduces it's value significantly, and the most simple way to resolve this deficiency, that I can think of, would be to have each clone alive also apply a single stack of bleeding around it's location when the Mesmer gains Mirage Cloak. This has a benefit for the trait, as it then scales with clones in play as well as with the endurance generation, in effect increasing it's versatility as well as the damage output. After such a change, if it turns out too strong reducing the number of stacks applied by the Mesmer itself could easily be reduced if 6 stacks at point blank ended up being too strong.

    Once again, Elusive Mind still feels lackluster and could benefit from gaining an effect of Chaos Armor or something after the Mirage Cloak ends. It just needs a little something on the defensive end or an offensive effect to balance out the penalty of 100% endurance reduction. IF it can get balanced in such a way then it would prove a very viable option for a bunker build.

  • @flog.3485 said:

    @ZeteCommander.4937 said:

    @flog.3485 said:

    @yusayu.3629 said:

    @lordorinko.6978 said:
    Maybe, just maybe if the mesmer weren't so disgusting to play against in pvp they would be less harsh to the class. But evasion, dodge, invis, one shot bursts, condi cleanses, TARGETING DISRUPTION (in a fcking mmorpg btw) is not enough for a class i guess. Yeah mesmer needs buff since they can still one shot from invis and go invis again and do all the other stuff.

    How do you "oneshot from invis and go invis again"? You have exactly one invis on the usual build. Torch 4. You use about 7 abilities for the instagib combo, which leaves you with one average CC, two dodges and one short-range teleport. On a class with barely any health and the ability to cleanse exactly 3 conditions IF the enemy is not dodging right that moment. Also, no, Mirage doesn't have all of that on the same build. If you have a build that incorporates all of the above and has any merit in the current PvP environment, please link it.

    @flog.3485 said:
    Ideally the grandmaster traits should work like that imo:
    -Infinitive horizon to enhance power mirage
    -Dune cloak to enhance condi mirage
    -elusive mind for a bit more sustain

    The problem though is that elusive mind is useless as whole because of the core ability of dodging while being cc’ed, because in PvE there is not enough threats to make it seem like you want to use it, because in PvP modes getting a high amount

    There'll always be traits that will be worthless in either PvP or PvE. For PvE you will always take whatever gives the most DPS, but that doesn't mean that all traits should straight-up enhance DPS. Imo IH is too much fun and fits too well with the Mirage profession to leave it as a choice. It should be built into the class. They could replace Nomad's Endurance with IH, and give Mirage some Vigor generation as a grandmaster. Then you'd have the choice between more dodges, stronger dodges & more damage when dodging. Something like "Shatter skills grant Vigor, whenever you gain Vigor generate a clone", or "After you and your clones have successfully hit 3 ambush attacks (multiple axes from a single ambush attack don't count), gain Vigor. Also, the effects of Vigor are enhanced by 30%."

    I could see why you would do that, but your idea sounds like pure power creep though. If we are going to make the mechanic of ambushes available to clones and phantasms as a built-in feature of the elite spec, then other nerfs need to be implemented for mirage as a whole on:
    -the free dodges when CC’ed
    -the fact that you get clones out of phantasms as well.

    My message got cut-off for some unknown reason but I also really don’t like the fact that phantasm damages are being enhanced while a phantasm at a core level is already doing what they are supposed to do. And in that regard, I am opposed to have it gain more through ambushes (without choices).

    Your proposition doesn’t make much sense to me as well. “More dodges” or “more damages when dodging” are basically the same because the more dodges you have the more damages you are going to do.

    Remove shatter from mirage,This is more in line with the mirage design

    Lol that will never happen. Too much traits are dependent on the shattering mechanic.

    The Nec is an example.

  • @yusayu.3629 said:

    @flog.3485 said:

    @yusayu.3629 said:

    @lordorinko.6978 said:
    Maybe, just maybe if the mesmer weren't so disgusting to play against in pvp they would be less harsh to the class. But evasion, dodge, invis, one shot bursts, condi cleanses, TARGETING DISRUPTION (in a fcking mmorpg btw) is not enough for a class i guess. Yeah mesmer needs buff since they can still one shot from invis and go invis again and do all the other stuff.

    How do you "oneshot from invis and go invis again"? You have exactly one invis on the usual build. Torch 4. You use about 7 abilities for the instagib combo, which leaves you with one average CC, two dodges and one short-range teleport. On a class with barely any health and the ability to cleanse exactly 3 conditions IF the enemy is not dodging right that moment. Also, no, Mirage doesn't have all of that on the same build. If you have a build that incorporates all of the above and has any merit in the current PvP environment, please link it.

    @flog.3485 said:
    Ideally the grandmaster traits should work like that imo:
    -Infinitive horizon to enhance power mirage
    -Dune cloak to enhance condi mirage
    -elusive mind for a bit more sustain

    The problem though is that elusive mind is useless as whole because of the core ability of dodging while being cc’ed, because in PvE there is not enough threats to make it seem like you want to use it, because in PvP modes getting a high amount

    There'll always be traits that will be worthless in either PvP or PvE. For PvE you will always take whatever gives the most DPS, but that doesn't mean that all traits should straight-up enhance DPS. Imo IH is too much fun and fits too well with the Mirage profession to leave it as a choice. It should be built into the class. They could replace Nomad's Endurance with IH, and give Mirage some Vigor generation as a grandmaster. Then you'd have the choice between more dodges, stronger dodges & more damage when dodging. Something like "Shatter skills grant Vigor, whenever you gain Vigor generate a clone", or "After you and your clones have successfully hit 3 ambush attacks (multiple axes from a single ambush attack don't count), gain Vigor. Also, the effects of Vigor are enhanced by 30%."

    I could see why you would do that, but your idea sounds like pure power creep though. If we are going to make the mechanic of ambushes available to clones and phantasms as a built-in feature of the elite spec, then other nerfs need to be implemented for mirage as a whole on:
    -the free dodges when CC’ed
    -the fact that you get clones out of phantasms as well.

    Ofc you would need to nerf ambush attacks in general, if you were to make IH available as a base-line trait. Also, Phantasms obviously shouldn't do Ambush attacks, only clones. Phantasms are already pretty weak in PvP, though, and the fact that they eventually become clones hasn't really made them useful in PvP either.

    My message got cut-off for some unknown reason but I also really don’t like the fact that phantasm damages are being enhanced while a phantasm at a core level is already doing what they are supposed to do. And in that regard, I am opposed to have it gain more through ambushes (without choices).

    Where would Phantasms become stronger in this equation? I never said that Phantasms should perform Ambush attacks, I was only talking about clones.

    Your proposition doesn’t make much sense to me as well. “More dodges” or “more damages when dodging” are basically the same because the more dodges you have the more damages you are going to do.

    Well, kind of. You are still limited by the animation speed, especially that of your clones. But still, you could just change/buff Dune Cloak a bit.

    @ZeteCommander.4937 said:

    @flog.3485 said:

    @yusayu.3629 said:

    @lordorinko.6978 said:
    Maybe, just maybe if the mesmer weren't so disgusting to play against in pvp they would be less harsh to the class. But evasion, dodge, invis, one shot bursts, condi cleanses, TARGETING DISRUPTION (in a fcking mmorpg btw) is not enough for a class i guess. Yeah mesmer needs buff since they can still one shot from invis and go invis again and do all the other stuff.

    How do you "oneshot from invis and go invis again"? You have exactly one invis on the usual build. Torch 4. You use about 7 abilities for the instagib combo, which leaves you with one average CC, two dodges and one short-range teleport. On a class with barely any health and the ability to cleanse exactly 3 conditions IF the enemy is not dodging right that moment. Also, no, Mirage doesn't have all of that on the same build. If you have a build that incorporates all of the above and has any merit in the current PvP environment, please link it.

    @flog.3485 said:
    Ideally the grandmaster traits should work like that imo:
    -Infinitive horizon to enhance power mirage
    -Dune cloak to enhance condi mirage
    -elusive mind for a bit more sustain

    The problem though is that elusive mind is useless as whole because of the core ability of dodging while being cc’ed, because in PvE there is not enough threats to make it seem like you want to use it, because in PvP modes getting a high amount

    There'll always be traits that will be worthless in either PvP or PvE. For PvE you will always take whatever gives the most DPS, but that doesn't mean that all traits should straight-up enhance DPS. Imo IH is too much fun and fits too well with the Mirage profession to leave it as a choice. It should be built into the class. They could replace Nomad's Endurance with IH, and give Mirage some Vigor generation as a grandmaster. Then you'd have the choice between more dodges, stronger dodges & more damage when dodging. Something like "Shatter skills grant Vigor, whenever you gain Vigor generate a clone", or "After you and your clones have successfully hit 3 ambush attacks (multiple axes from a single ambush attack don't count), gain Vigor. Also, the effects of Vigor are enhanced by 30%."

    I could see why you would do that, but your idea sounds like pure power creep though. If we are going to make the mechanic of ambushes available to clones and phantasms as a built-in feature of the elite spec, then other nerfs need to be implemented for mirage as a whole on:
    -the free dodges when CC’ed
    -the fact that you get clones out of phantasms as well.

    My message got cut-off for some unknown reason but I also really don’t like the fact that phantasm damages are being enhanced while a phantasm at a core level is already doing what they are supposed to do. And in that regard, I am opposed to have it gain more through ambushes (without choices).

    Your proposition doesn’t make much sense to me as well. “More dodges” or “more damages when dodging” are basically the same because the more dodges you have the more damages you are going to do.

    Remove shatter from mirage,This is more in line with the mirage design

    But then there would need to be something else you should be able to do with your clones. Otherwise, when you're at 3 clones you'll just waste them and resummon them for no reason. If you remove shatters, you'd have to remove the 3-clone-limit imo, but the game probably couldn't handle that.

    Maybe special shatter that relevant to the theme of mirage or Chronomancer

  • yusayu.3629yusayu.3629 Member ✭✭✭

    @Delofasht.4231 said:

    Once again, Elusive Mind still feels lackluster and could benefit from gaining an effect of Chaos Armor or something after the Mirage Cloak ends. It just needs a little something on the defensive end or an offensive effect to balance out the penalty of 100% endurance reduction. IF it can get balanced in such a way then it would prove a very viable option for a bunker build.

    Honestly, they should just reduce the duration that you are exhausted or remove the exhaustion and give the trait some other drawback, like an actual cooldown.

  • Delofasht.4231Delofasht.4231 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 19, 2019

    @yusayu.3629 said:

    Honestly, they should just reduce the duration that you are exhausted or remove the exhaustion and give the trait some other drawback, like an actual cooldown.

    Such a cooldown is basically invisible, and so many of the Mesmer traits have these kinds of hidden cooldowns that relying on them in clutch situations is difficult if not impossible to effectively utilize. Passive traits feel like minor traits, often feel like something that should have just been in the profession from the start, but active ones that make using your abilities at the right time are much more attractive and reliable.

    The exhaustion is annoying, but it is acceptable, if it just meant surviving a bit more, but using Elusive Mind to actually break a stun may as well be a death sentence. It may not kill you instantly, but in a few seconds one is going to need that follow up dodge and it simply is not going to be there. The design feels awkward when something meant to help keep you alive ends up killing you instead. Thus simply adding a bit more power into the trait but in a different way may be far more beneficial. The idea is to avoid having too much stun break potential but still have a trait that feels good to use.

  • Tayga.3192Tayga.3192 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 19, 2019

    Elusive Mind idea:

    "Mirage Mirrors grant an increased evade time (1 second in total, like before nerf), gaining mirage mirrors break stun and remove one condition. After breaking stun or removing immobilize in this manner, you are exhausted.
    Stunbreak exhaustion: 4 seconds
    Removing immobilize exhaustion: 1 second"

    As a hidden feature, it should always remove immobilize first.
    Numbers can change but that's the main idea.

    Edit: This idea makes thief counter mesmer even more because if you dodge just after steal, you will break the daze and get 4 seconds debuff.

  • praqtos.9035praqtos.9035 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Tayga.3192 said:
    Elusive Mind idea:

    "Mirage Mirrors grant an increased evade time (1 second in total, like before nerf), gaining mirage mirrors break stun and remove one condition. After breaking stun or removing immobilize in this manner, you are exhausted.
    Stunbreak exhaustion: 4 seconds
    Removing immobilize exhaustion: 1 second"

    As a hidden feature, it should always remove immobilize first.
    Numbers can change but that's the main idea.

    Edit: This idea makes thief counter mesmer even more because if you dodge just after steal, you will break the daze and get 4 seconds debuff.

    Exhaust doesnt fit mesmer as its not a thief that can restore endurance even when he has exhaust debuff. Its simply doesnt fit the mesmer

  • Tayga.3192Tayga.3192 Member ✭✭✭

    @praqtos.9035 said:
    Exhaust doesnt fit mesmer as its not a thief that can restore endurance even when he has exhaust debuff. Its simply doesnt fit the mesmer

    It fits lore-wise but in case of pvp, yes it doesn't fit at all. Really the important part is that stunbreak having a much stronger debuff than removing immob.

  • praqtos.9035praqtos.9035 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 19, 2019

    @otto.5684 said:

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    @Tayga.3192 said:
    Elusive Mind idea:

    "Mirage Mirrors grant an increased evade time (1 second in total, like before nerf), gaining mirage mirrors break stun and remove one condition. After breaking stun or removing immobilize in this manner, you are exhausted.
    Stunbreak exhaustion: 4 seconds
    Removing immobilize exhaustion: 1 second"

    As a hidden feature, it should always remove immobilize first.
    Numbers can change but that's the main idea.

    Edit: This idea makes thief counter mesmer even more because if you dodge just after steal, you will break the daze and get 4 seconds debuff.

    Exhaust doesnt fit mesmer as its not a thief that can restore endurance even when he has exhaust debuff. Its simply doesnt fit the mesmer

    I agree. It was handicap band-aid Anet threw in there to ensure no one uses this trait.

    I have a suggestion that many would not agree with, but I think it is better overall balance and design.

    First, unnerf axe and Jaunt.

    Second, infinite horizon becomes baseline.

    Third, you know cannot dodge while CCed. Elusive Mind, now you can dodge while CCed + condi removal. No CC break and no exhaustion. Dune cloak remains the same. Condi mirage needs a slight buff in PvE anyway, so this should solve it. New major GM increases your power damage by 20% (10% PvP) for 5 sec after using an ambush skill.

    This
    But also I think mirage traits need full rework, almost every trait, except axe trait,IH.
    Wait I didnt read about dune cloak. Difuk. Its bad and need a rework

  • Solori.6025Solori.6025 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @otto.5684 said:

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    @Tayga.3192 said:
    Elusive Mind idea:

    "Mirage Mirrors grant an increased evade time (1 second in total, like before nerf), gaining mirage mirrors break stun and remove one condition. After breaking stun or removing immobilize in this manner, you are exhausted.
    Stunbreak exhaustion: 4 seconds
    Removing immobilize exhaustion: 1 second"

    As a hidden feature, it should always remove immobilize first.
    Numbers can change but that's the main idea.

    Edit: This idea makes thief counter mesmer even more because if you dodge just after steal, you will break the daze and get 4 seconds debuff.

    Exhaust doesnt fit mesmer as its not a thief that can restore endurance even when he has exhaust debuff. Its simply doesnt fit the mesmer

    I agree. It was handicap band-aid Anet threw in there to ensure no one uses this trait.

    I have a suggestion that many would not agree with, but I think it is better overall balance and design.

    First, unnerf axe and Jaunt.

    Second, infinite horizon becomes baseline.

    Third, you know cannot dodge while CCed. Elusive Mind, now you can dodge while CCed + condi removal. No CC break and no exhaustion. Dune cloak remains the same. Condi mirage needs a slight buff in PvE anyway, so this should solve it. New major GM increases your power damage by 20% (10% PvP) for 5 sec after using an ambush skill.

    I was with you until dune cloak. That trait released as hot garbage and still is. It needs to be redesigned.

    Tingle my stingleberry

  • otto.5684otto.5684 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 20, 2019

    @Solori.6025 said:

    @otto.5684 said:

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    @Tayga.3192 said:
    Elusive Mind idea:

    "Mirage Mirrors grant an increased evade time (1 second in total, like before nerf), gaining mirage mirrors break stun and remove one condition. After breaking stun or removing immobilize in this manner, you are exhausted.
    Stunbreak exhaustion: 4 seconds
    Removing immobilize exhaustion: 1 second"

    As a hidden feature, it should always remove immobilize first.
    Numbers can change but that's the main idea.

    Edit: This idea makes thief counter mesmer even more because if you dodge just after steal, you will break the daze and get 4 seconds debuff.

    Exhaust doesnt fit mesmer as its not a thief that can restore endurance even when he has exhaust debuff. Its simply doesnt fit the mesmer

    I agree. It was handicap band-aid Anet threw in there to ensure no one uses this trait.

    I have a suggestion that many would not agree with, but I think it is better overall balance and design.

    First, unnerf axe and Jaunt.

    Second, infinite horizon becomes baseline.

    Third, you know cannot dodge while CCed. Elusive Mind, now you can dodge while CCed + condi removal. No CC break and no exhaustion. Dune cloak remains the same. Condi mirage needs a slight buff in PvE anyway, so this should solve it. New major GM increases your power damage by 20% (10% PvP) for 5 sec after using an ambush skill.

    I was with you until dune cloak. That trait released as hot garbage and still is. It needs to be redesigned.

    If we make IH base line it will be the meta for PvE for extra damage. Elusive mind for PvP and the third Trait for power.with IH as base, if we further buff dune cloak damage will probably be too high in PvE.

  • Jables.4659Jables.4659 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 20, 2019

    @Delofasht.4231 said:
    Infinite Horizon becoming the minor would make the remaining traits much more interesting for builds

    I firmly believe that Infinite Horizon is and has been the main reason for Mirage's perceived OPness since pof launch. It makes it much more difficult for players to track the real Mesmer while simultaneously encouraging passive play. Condition Mirage's can spend the vast majority of a pvp/wvw fight kiting, stealthing, ect. while still dealing far too much damage. For some insane reason Anet has taken it upon themselves to nerf core Mesmer traits and Mirage traits instead of fixing the obvious issue. At this point nerfing Infinite Horizon would leave Mirage as a pathetic excuse for an elite spec, but further ingraining it into Mirage is just another step in the wrong direction. If I had it my way Infinite Horizon (and the other 2 GM traits) would be removed and replaced. Ambush attacks would be slightly buffed to partially compensate for the loss of IH. Of course that's not all, Evasive Mirror would have its ICD reduced to 3-5 seconds, Confusing Images would have its power damage buffed by 25% (to bring it back to where it was before the dumb changes), sword phantasm would be back to 8 might, phantasmal force would be buffed slightly, Staff phantasms would be changed into something useful, Mirage vigor trait would be buffed, the list goes on and on.

    EDIT: This was obviously written from a pvp perspective, but to compensate for the huge loss in DPS condimirage would experience in pve, they could buff the kitten out of certain condition attacks in pve only.

  • flog.3485flog.3485 Member ✭✭✭

    @yusayu.3629 said:

    @flog.3485 said:

    @yusayu.3629 said:

    @lordorinko.6978 said:
    Maybe, just maybe if the mesmer weren't so disgusting to play against in pvp they would be less harsh to the class. But evasion, dodge, invis, one shot bursts, condi cleanses, TARGETING DISRUPTION (in a fcking mmorpg btw) is not enough for a class i guess. Yeah mesmer needs buff since they can still one shot from invis and go invis again and do all the other stuff.

    How do you "oneshot from invis and go invis again"? You have exactly one invis on the usual build. Torch 4. You use about 7 abilities for the instagib combo, which leaves you with one average CC, two dodges and one short-range teleport. On a class with barely any health and the ability to cleanse exactly 3 conditions IF the enemy is not dodging right that moment. Also, no, Mirage doesn't have all of that on the same build. If you have a build that incorporates all of the above and has any merit in the current PvP environment, please link it.

    @flog.3485 said:
    Ideally the grandmaster traits should work like that imo:
    -Infinitive horizon to enhance power mirage
    -Dune cloak to enhance condi mirage
    -elusive mind for a bit more sustain

    The problem though is that elusive mind is useless as whole because of the core ability of dodging while being cc’ed, because in PvE there is not enough threats to make it seem like you want to use it, because in PvP modes getting a high amount

    There'll always be traits that will be worthless in either PvP or PvE. For PvE you will always take whatever gives the most DPS, but that doesn't mean that all traits should straight-up enhance DPS. Imo IH is too much fun and fits too well with the Mirage profession to leave it as a choice. It should be built into the class. They could replace Nomad's Endurance with IH, and give Mirage some Vigor generation as a grandmaster. Then you'd have the choice between more dodges, stronger dodges & more damage when dodging. Something like "Shatter skills grant Vigor, whenever you gain Vigor generate a clone", or "After you and your clones have successfully hit 3 ambush attacks (multiple axes from a single ambush attack don't count), gain Vigor. Also, the effects of Vigor are enhanced by 30%."

    I could see why you would do that, but your idea sounds like pure power creep though. If we are going to make the mechanic of ambushes available to clones and phantasms as a built-in feature of the elite spec, then other nerfs need to be implemented for mirage as a whole on:
    -the free dodges when CC’ed
    -the fact that you get clones out of phantasms as well.

    Ofc you would need to nerf ambush attacks in general, if you were to make IH available as a base-line trait. Also, Phantasms obviously shouldn't do Ambush attacks, only clones. Phantasms are already pretty weak in PvP, though, and the fact that they eventually become clones hasn't really made them useful in PvP either.

    My message got cut-off for some unknown reason but I also really don’t like the fact that phantasm damages are being enhanced while a phantasm at a core level is already doing what they are supposed to do. And in that regard, I am opposed to have it gain more through ambushes (without choices).

    Where would Phantasms become stronger in this equation? I never said that Phantasms should perform Ambush attacks, I was only talking about clones.

    Your proposition doesn’t make much sense to me as well. “More dodges” or “more damages when dodging” are basically the same because the more dodges you have the more damages you are going to do.

    Well, kind of. You are still limited by the animation speed, especially that of your clones. But still, you could just change/buff Dune Cloak a bit.

    @ZeteCommander.4937 said:

    @flog.3485 said:

    @yusayu.3629 said:

    @lordorinko.6978 said:
    Maybe, just maybe if the mesmer weren't so disgusting to play against in pvp they would be less harsh to the class. But evasion, dodge, invis, one shot bursts, condi cleanses, TARGETING DISRUPTION (in a fcking mmorpg btw) is not enough for a class i guess. Yeah mesmer needs buff since they can still one shot from invis and go invis again and do all the other stuff.

    How do you "oneshot from invis and go invis again"? You have exactly one invis on the usual build. Torch 4. You use about 7 abilities for the instagib combo, which leaves you with one average CC, two dodges and one short-range teleport. On a class with barely any health and the ability to cleanse exactly 3 conditions IF the enemy is not dodging right that moment. Also, no, Mirage doesn't have all of that on the same build. If you have a build that incorporates all of the above and has any merit in the current PvP environment, please link it.

    @flog.3485 said:
    Ideally the grandmaster traits should work like that imo:
    -Infinitive horizon to enhance power mirage
    -Dune cloak to enhance condi mirage
    -elusive mind for a bit more sustain

    The problem though is that elusive mind is useless as whole because of the core ability of dodging while being cc’ed, because in PvE there is not enough threats to make it seem like you want to use it, because in PvP modes getting a high amount

    There'll always be traits that will be worthless in either PvP or PvE. For PvE you will always take whatever gives the most DPS, but that doesn't mean that all traits should straight-up enhance DPS. Imo IH is too much fun and fits too well with the Mirage profession to leave it as a choice. It should be built into the class. They could replace Nomad's Endurance with IH, and give Mirage some Vigor generation as a grandmaster. Then you'd have the choice between more dodges, stronger dodges & more damage when dodging. Something like "Shatter skills grant Vigor, whenever you gain Vigor generate a clone", or "After you and your clones have successfully hit 3 ambush attacks (multiple axes from a single ambush attack don't count), gain Vigor. Also, the effects of Vigor are enhanced by 30%."

    I could see why you would do that, but your idea sounds like pure power creep though. If we are going to make the mechanic of ambushes available to clones and phantasms as a built-in feature of the elite spec, then other nerfs need to be implemented for mirage as a whole on:
    -the free dodges when CC’ed
    -the fact that you get clones out of phantasms as well.

    My message got cut-off for some unknown reason but I also really don’t like the fact that phantasm damages are being enhanced while a phantasm at a core level is already doing what they are supposed to do. And in that regard, I am opposed to have it gain more through ambushes (without choices).

    Your proposition doesn’t make much sense to me as well. “More dodges” or “more damages when dodging” are basically the same because the more dodges you have the more damages you are going to do.

    Remove shatter from mirage,This is more in line with the mirage design

    But then there would need to be something else you should be able to do with your clones. Otherwise, when you're at 3 clones you'll just waste them and resummon them for no reason. If you remove shatters, you'd have to remove the 3-clone-limit imo, but the game probably couldn't handle that.

    I see, thx for the precisions.

  • Delofasht.4231Delofasht.4231 Member ✭✭✭

    @otto.5684 said:
    If we make IH base line it will be the meta for PvE for extra damage. Elusive mind for PvP and the third Trait for power.with IH as base, if we further buff dune cloak damage will probably be too high in PvE.

    IH being baseline making Mirage meta does not really make much sense here, as the extra gain in damage should be insignificant compared to other current meta builds of other professions. Also, has anyone else done some napkin math for Dune Cloak versus IH? It is not that Dune Cloak is bad, it is just less versatile and limited in range, solve the range by adding the bleeds to the area around a clone or applied to enemies hit by and around the next Mesmer attack, to make it equally useful for range and melee builds. This is a flaw in opportunity cost, and actually less about whether one is better than another in a stand and shoot comparison at point blank range (IH is always better when ranged on a non-moving target, most PvE).

  • Delofasht.4231Delofasht.4231 Member ✭✭✭

    @Jables.4659 said:

    @Delofasht.4231 said:
    Infinite Horizon becoming the minor would make the remaining traits much more interesting for builds

    I firmly believe that Infinite Horizon is and has been the main reason for Mirage's perceived OPness since pof launch. It makes it much more difficult for players to track the real Mesmer while simultaneously encouraging passive play.

    IH is not fooling anyone who has played the game for more than a few weeks in PvP or WvW. The moment you look for the Mesmer that is not following the same pattern of attack you have spotted the real one. For most professions that means dropping into stealth or a block for a sec to look around. The perception by people who do not take the time to learn is a problem. It would be like me accusing another profession of being overpowered because I am unfamiliar with how they work... this is exactly the issue Mesmer has always faced, those who have not played it or paid attention to the game do not seem to realize it’s weaknesses so they see it as having none.

  • praqtos.9035praqtos.9035 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

    @Jables.4659 said:

    @Delofasht.4231 said:
    Infinite Horizon becoming the minor would make the remaining traits much more interesting for builds

    I firmly believe that Infinite Horizon is and has been the main reason for Mirage's perceived OPness since pof launch. It makes it much more difficult for players to track the real Mesmer while simultaneously encouraging passive play.

    IH wasn't used in pvp until EM got smiter's booned.

    With all damage nerfs mesmer recieved it became impossible to play without IH, even with IH power mirage is pretty bad, at least if you are playing EU. Na is a meme anyway

  • Delofasht.4231Delofasht.4231 Member ✭✭✭

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

    @Jables.4659 said:

    @Delofasht.4231 said:
    Infinite Horizon becoming the minor would make the remaining traits much more interesting for builds

    I firmly believe that Infinite Horizon is and has been the main reason for Mirage's perceived OPness since pof launch. It makes it much more difficult for players to track the real Mesmer while simultaneously encouraging passive play.

    IH wasn't used in pvp until EM got smiter's booned.

    With all damage nerfs mesmer recieved it became impossible to play without IH, even with IH power mirage is pretty bad, at least if you are playing EU. Na is a meme anyway

    That really reinforces what we are saying here, that IH does not provide the damage increase that many seem to think, it is chosen for it’s utility. It is taken to have some extra debilitating conditions like vulnerability for power builds or to sometimes save a clone from an AoE hit that would wipe them all out. It is why EM was the main choice until it simply became too bad, which is still fine for soloing champions and such in PvE.

    The nerfs did not make IH a necessity, but the only real choice out of the options for many builds. There are some builds that can keep bleeding up for Dune Cloak without being in melee range through dueling trait line with crit illusions so the increase on other conditions like vulnerability, weakness, or slow end up lasting longer. The players utilizing this are taking advantage of some small mathematical advantage for increasing their damage passively, and not trying to play to players being bad and losing the Mesmer in a sea of clones that use the same kind of attack (in case others didn’t know, the animation of clones is slightly slower than that of the Mesmer with IH).

  • praqtos.9035praqtos.9035 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 21, 2019

    @Delofasht.4231 said:

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

    @Jables.4659 said:

    @Delofasht.4231 said:
    Infinite Horizon becoming the minor would make the remaining traits much more interesting for builds

    I firmly believe that Infinite Horizon is and has been the main reason for Mirage's perceived OPness since pof launch. It makes it much more difficult for players to track the real Mesmer while simultaneously encouraging passive play.

    IH wasn't used in pvp until EM got smiter's booned.

    With all damage nerfs mesmer recieved it became impossible to play without IH, even with IH power mirage is pretty bad, at least if you are playing EU. Na is a meme anyway

    That really reinforces what we are saying here, that IH does not provide the damage increase that many seem to think, it is chosen for it’s utility. It is taken to have some extra debilitating conditions like vulnerability for power builds or to sometimes save a clone from an AoE hit that would wipe them all out. It is why EM was the main choice until it simply became too bad, which is still fine for soloing champions and such in PvE.

    In case of scepter and staff - it does add more damage and the only way to somehow keep pressure on your enemies. After all nerf on mesmer personal,ambush,confusion,weapons damage you simply cannot hope to kill anyone without IH.
    Power builds barely benefit from IH in terms of damage. More like for daze spam,without producing lots of clones its pretty useless trait.
    Just like trait self-deception is kitten bad, it doesnt help to make clones, deceptions are bad and require you to alrdy have a clone ...
    Mirage traits are just really bad, not only grandmaster traits

  • Curunen.8729Curunen.8729 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 21, 2019

    The whole point of mirage should be to be deceptive and difficult to track - hence detargeting and clone ambushes.

    IH causing clones to visually perform the same action as the player is excellent and the kind of thing mesmer in general should have been going for from the start.

    IH as a visual effect with all clones ambushing should be the minor trait for thematic reasons. In terms of gameplay, the solution would be to shift majority of damage from clones onto player, and remove things like trident and sword clones being able to cc.

    That way it becomes a game of spot the real ambush (ie the one that is going to deal the real damage and other effects) without being fooled by all the clone ambushes.

    This would reduce ambush spam gameplay and reward smart players who are able to identify the real player ambush and avoid it.

    My ears, how are you! | Kourna Jackrabbit for default Springer

  • Delofasht.4231Delofasht.4231 Member ✭✭✭

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    @Delofasht.4231 said:

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

    @Jables.4659 said:

    @Delofasht.4231 said:
    Infinite Horizon becoming the minor would make the remaining traits much more interesting for builds

    I firmly believe that Infinite Horizon is and has been the main reason for Mirage's perceived OPness since pof launch. It makes it much more difficult for players to track the real Mesmer while simultaneously encouraging passive play.

    IH wasn't used in pvp until EM got smiter's booned.

    With all damage nerfs mesmer recieved it became impossible to play without IH, even with IH power mirage is pretty bad, at least if you are playing EU. Na is a meme anyway

    That really reinforces what we are saying here, that IH does not provide the damage increase that many seem to think, it is chosen for it’s utility. It is taken to have some extra debilitating conditions like vulnerability for power builds or to sometimes save a clone from an AoE hit that would wipe them all out. It is why EM was the main choice until it simply became too bad, which is still fine for soloing champions and such in PvE.

    In case of scepter and staff - it does add more damage and the only way to somehow keep pressure on your enemies. After all nerf on mesmer personal,ambush,confusion,weapons damage you simply cannot hope to kill anyone without IH.
    Power builds barely benefit from IH in terms of damage. More like for daze spam,without producing lots of clones its pretty useless trait.
    Just like trait self-deception is kitten bad, it doesnt help to make clones, deceptions are bad and require you to alrdy have a clone ...
    Mirage traits are just really bad, not only grandmaster traits

    Yes in Condition builds and on weapons designed to apply conditions it does prove as a damage increase, but power weapons do not particularly benefit from IH.

    Self Deception is actually fine though, not always a pick, but an interrupt build with sword can greatly utilize it. Dueling/Dom/Mirage where picking up the interrupt traits and using sword and Greatsword for their interrupts and knockbacks with burst and lots of vulnerability and crit can work fairly well in many situations (but weak against some enemies). The play is the thing with using Self Deception, it requires a little fore planning on laying down some kind of clone first, which feels great to me. It is a well designed trait, not overpowered, but fully useable, just not free power. It is a trait that has some real power in a build that does not need regeneration all the time, or wants to grab something other than Deceptive Evasion.

    The main problems with any of these other traits simply stem from other professions being slightly overtuned. Several of the elite specializations and many single push high damage abilities should probably be tuned back a bit to allow for more nuanced play. It is not exciting to see people get knocked down into 20k damage over the course of a second and a half by any profession, especially not as frequently as it is with the low CD on these attacks.

    My focus is on whatever is needed to keep things mostly balanced and not end up with a build that ends up being overtuned, because ANet tends to overnerf Mesmer when it gets strong in any way. See my other posts in the past to get an understanding of my stance.

  • praqtos.9035praqtos.9035 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Delofasht.4231 said:
    Self Deception is actually fine though, not always a pick, but an interrupt build with sword can greatly utilize it. Dueling/Dom/Mirage where picking up the interrupt traits and using sword and Greatsword for their interrupts and knockbacks with burst and lots of vulnerability and crit can work fairly well in many situations (but weak against some enemies). The play is the thing with using Self Deception, it requires a little fore planning on laying down some kind of clone first, which feels great to me. It is a well designed trait, not overpowered, but fully useable, just not free power. It is a trait that has some real power in a build that does not need regeneration all the time, or wants to grab something other than Deceptive Evasion.

    Its so wrong :)
    To make a clone you must have a clone that exist and wasnt isntakilled by random auto attack AND use a DECEPTION skill to create it. They are not just bad but their cooldowns are insane long to use it "just for a clone", this trait not just "not overtuned" its just useless in 95% of cases.You dont need to be genius to understand that trait is not worth taking, ever, unless other options are vastly worse. This trait would be good only if they give it cooldown reduction to deception skills,this would make a lot of sense since with all this nerfs on deceptions and jaunt wouldnt look as bad as now.As an example of similar trait would be
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Brawler's_Tenacity

    My focus is on whatever is needed to keep things mostly balanced and not end up with a build that ends up being overtuned, because ANet tends to overnerf Mesmer when it gets strong in any way.

    Not like its breaking news to me

  • Delofasht.4231Delofasht.4231 Member ✭✭✭

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    @Delofasht.4231 said:
    Self Deception is actually fine though, not always a pick, but an interrupt build with sword can greatly utilize it. Dueling/Dom/Mirage where picking up the interrupt traits and using sword and Greatsword for their interrupts and knockbacks with burst and lots of vulnerability and crit can work fairly well in many situations (but weak against some enemies). The play is the thing with using Self Deception, it requires a little fore planning on laying down some kind of clone first, which feels great to me. It is a well designed trait, not overpowered, but fully useable, just not free power. It is a trait that has some real power in a build that does not need regeneration all the time, or wants to grab something other than Deceptive Evasion.

    Its so wrong :)
    To make a clone you must have a clone that exist and wasnt isntakilled by random auto attack AND use a DECEPTION skill to create it. They are not just bad but their cooldowns are insane long to use it "just for a clone", this trait not just "not overtuned" its just useless in 95% of cases.You dont need to be genius to understand that trait is not worth taking, ever, unless other options are vastly worse. This trait would be good only if they give it cooldown reduction to deception skills,this would make a lot of sense since with all this nerfs on deceptions and jaunt wouldnt look as bad as now.As an example of similar trait would be
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Brawler's_Tenacity

    I get where you are coming from, but if you actually sword ambush into jaunt on the target followed by Sand through Glass, you have 3 clones, a small range advantage, and a shatter burst lined up. It is not a huge 10k burst like other professions pushing 2 buttons, but it can be around 6 to 8k in the right build (crit depending). That is not bad for being all done in less than 2 seconds and being immune for 1.5 seconds of it. Other options are Illusionary Leap/Swap into Jaunt, Ambush and Mind Wrack. These are just two of the very common starts, any clone button into a combo is easy with Deception utilities and Self Deception. Problem still remaining is that we do so much less damage per button press compared to other professions and they tend to have lower CDs on their big damage bursts.

    Just saying, it may not be meta yet, but Mirage has a lot of play potential, just needs players that can navigate it and may not be strong enough for certain tiers of sPvP (totally fine in WvW). Funny thing about this is, IH isn’t even needed for these combos and does not particularly benefit such a build, where Dune Cloak or Elusive Mind can fill more important roles. This is why focusing on the GM traits are important here, where IH just feels and looks better for the elite profession and does not do a lot outside of condition builds but looks really awesome.

  • Xstein.2187Xstein.2187 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 22, 2019

    @Delofasht.4231 said:

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    @Delofasht.4231 said:
    Self Deception is actually fine though, not always a pick, but an interrupt build with sword can greatly utilize it. Dueling/Dom/Mirage where picking up the interrupt traits and using sword and Greatsword for their interrupts and knockbacks with burst and lots of vulnerability and crit can work fairly well in many situations (but weak against some enemies). The play is the thing with using Self Deception, it requires a little fore planning on laying down some kind of clone first, which feels great to me. It is a well designed trait, not overpowered, but fully useable, just not free power. It is a trait that has some real power in a build that does not need regeneration all the time, or wants to grab something other than Deceptive Evasion.

    Its so wrong :)
    To make a clone you must have a clone that exist and wasnt isntakilled by random auto attack AND use a DECEPTION skill to create it. They are not just bad but their cooldowns are insane long to use it "just for a clone", this trait not just "not overtuned" its just useless in 95% of cases.You dont need to be genius to understand that trait is not worth taking, ever, unless other options are vastly worse. This trait would be good only if they give it cooldown reduction to deception skills,this would make a lot of sense since with all this nerfs on deceptions and jaunt wouldnt look as bad as now.As an example of similar trait would be
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Brawler's_Tenacity

    I get where you are coming from, but if you actually sword ambush into jaunt on the target followed by Sand through Glass, you have 3 clones, a small range advantage, and a shatter burst lined up. It is not a huge 10k burst like other professions pushing 2 buttons, but it can be around 6 to 8k in the right build (crit depending). That is not bad for being all done in less than 2 seconds and being immune for 1.5 seconds of it. Other options are Illusionary Leap/Swap into Jaunt, Ambush and Mind Wrack. These are just two of the very common starts, any clone button into a combo is easy with Deception utilities and Self Deception. Problem still remaining is that we do so much less damage per button press compared to other professions and they tend to have lower CDs on their big damage bursts.

    That is why instead of a clone requirement, you could put an ICD on it. I know most people aren't big fans of ICDs and for good reason. However, the point of additional 'clone production' traits should be to provide a potential alternative to deceptive evasion, NOT to make it so it is a mediocrely adequate buff/trait ONLY when you have deceptive evasion selected as well.

    Just saying, it may not be meta yet, but Mirage has a lot of play potential, just needs players that can navigate it and may not be strong enough for certain tiers of sPvP (totally fine in WvW). Funny thing about this is, IH isn’t even needed for these combos and does not particularly benefit such a build, where Dune Cloak or Elusive Mind can fill more important roles. This is why focusing on the GM traits are important here, where IH just feels and looks better for the elite profession and does not do a lot outside of condition builds but looks really awesome.

    The thing about saying stuff like this (if I understand you correctly) is that you are underestimating the potential of the players as well. There are people who mess with builds and play PvP every day. If there is potential there, the players will find it, especially when these traits have been around for so long (PoF almost 2 years). There is a reason the players are able to find so many bugs, hack, and gimmicks. News travels. Dune Cloak and Elusive mind are not chosen in any sort of common builds because they simply do not work well, have too great of hindrances attached to them, or don't synergize as well with other traits in their current form.
    The players are better at finding build/class potential than most give them credit for.
    Additionally, one of the main reasons that IH is currently used so much with both Condi AND Power builds is simply because there is no other good choice.

  • Delofasht.4231Delofasht.4231 Member ✭✭✭

    @Xstein.2187 said:
    That is why instead of a clone requirement, you could put an ICD on it. I know most people aren't big fans of ICDs and for good reason. However, the point of additional 'clone production' traits should be to provide a potential alternative to deceptive evasion, NOT to make it so it is a mediocrely adequate buff/trait ONLY when you have deceptive evasion selected as well.

    The players are better at finding build/class potential than most give them credit for.
    Additionally, one of the main reasons that IH is currently used so much with both Condi AND Power builds is simply because there is no other good choice.

    We have established that IH is more versatile, known, and the reason why this thread exists.

    Players are good at copying someone else's build and playing that. Very few are good at making a new build work and determining the appropriate responses to various situations without being told how to do so, that is why build sites exist and what most people follow.

    ICDs are not good, it always feels terrible using up an ICD when you do not want to, especially on offensive traits.

  • Xstein.2187Xstein.2187 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 22, 2019

    @Delofasht.4231 said:

    @Xstein.2187 said:
    That is why instead of a clone requirement, you could put an ICD on it. I know most people aren't big fans of ICDs and for good reason. However, the point of additional 'clone production' traits should be to provide a potential alternative to deceptive evasion, NOT to make it so it is a mediocrely adequate buff/trait ONLY when you have deceptive evasion selected as well.

    The players are better at finding build/class potential than most give them credit for.
    Additionally, one of the main reasons that IH is currently used so much with both Condi AND Power builds is simply because there is no other good choice.

    Players are good at copying someone else's build and playing that. Very few are good at making a new build work and determining the appropriate responses to various situations without being told how to do so, that is why build sites exist and what most people follow.

    This is the part though that I think you are underestimating. Yes, most players just copy other builds. However, there are more that mess around than you realize and after a patch, there is always players trying to find the next best build, especially if they are competitive to begin with, with their lives depending on it if they are getting money for streaming.

    Example: Bunker chrono was discovered fairly quickly after HoT release even though almost all mesmers and typical players felt like they were 100% positive burst shatter was and would always be the best build for mesmers. This did not take over a year.

    Example: After bunker chrono was nerfed again, the forums were full of people saying that it would go back to burst shatter. However, what happened? Condi Chrono became meta. This didn't take 1 to 2 years to discover. This was discovered in about less than a month.

    PoF is almost out for 2 years now. It doesn't take two years for the players to discover the best build. This has nothing to do with most players following the crowd. It has to do with a specific niche of the community (that tends to be the most dedicated players) who do find other builds. This niche of the community also tends to have a good understanding of what works, what doesn't, and why. There is a reason most experimental builds are not as good as the best meta builds, and it has nothing to do with a lack of experimentation or effort. It has to do with what works and what doesn't.

    I have never in the history of the game ever heard of a 'better' build that was discovered over a year later. What instead tends to happen more often is that the competitive community tends to have an idea of what the next best type of build will be after a balance patch hits and their current build is nerfed.

    p.s. For Self-deception, I would highly, highly prefer having build variety if given the choice. Mesmer builds were largely locked down to being forced to take the dueling trait line with deceptive evasion in the past. I was/am pretty devastated that it has pretty much become mandatory once again. This should never be the case for the game.

  • Curunen.8729Curunen.8729 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 22, 2019

    EM is just beyond kitten, no ifs or buts. And I'm someone who used EM only, right up till nearly the end of last year.

    There's no way, when baseline mirage cloak allows you to dodge whenever you want, that exhaustion on dodge when cc - even if in the middle of a 0.5second daze (lol deadeye mark...) - gives you 6s exhaustion, that now stacks in duration up to whatever stupid number they decided to make it stack to in one of the recent patches...

    Nothing apart from removing this nonsense will make it good - unless they nerf mirage cloak further, but I think the fact they haven't touched the ability to baseline dodge while cced since nearly 2 years makes me think they intend that to be as it is.

    My ears, how are you! | Kourna Jackrabbit for default Springer

  • Lincolnbeard.1735Lincolnbeard.1735 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Curunen.8729 said:
    Nothing apart from removing this nonsense will make it good - unless they nerf mirage cloak further, but I think the fact they haven't touched the ability to baseline dodge while cced since nearly 2 years makes me think they intend that to be as it is.

    They better not remove that ability, it is the only thing worth speccing mirage since the attack while dodging mechanic they sold us is now dead and buried.

    The degenerate

  • Curunen.8729Curunen.8729 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

    @Curunen.8729 said:
    Nothing apart from removing this nonsense will make it good - unless they nerf mirage cloak further, but I think the fact they haven't touched the ability to baseline dodge while cced since nearly 2 years makes me think they intend that to be as it is.

    They better not remove that ability, it is the only thing worth speccing mirage since the attack while dodging mechanic they sold us is now dead and buried.

    I agree, especially since the nerf back to 0.75s - I think it's interesting design to make players think to bait and when to burst rather than mindlessly land cc/burst combos - given endurance for mirage is limited anyway so just like anything else will still run out of evade frames.

    My ears, how are you! | Kourna Jackrabbit for default Springer

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