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Questions regarding Ahdashim


Nikolai.3648

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While I didn’t have the time to fight my way through my favorite hidden city on my own yet, I did get to enjoy the cleaned map and the ending dialogues, as well as the ones recorded on the wiki. This leaves me with a few questions. It would be nice if someone could answer them.

1) While the general structure of the city seems to have stayed roughly the same, the rooms themselves look very different from GW1 times. (By the way, did anyone else felt that they should have brought the room full of gold back? I kind of missed it as a central point to the city. Maybe they felt like the mystic forge already covered the wealth aspect of the djinn.) While some of this might be simple artistic adaptation, most of it is explained via the Proposal for Renovations to Ahdashim. The books scattered around explain quite a lot, which leaves me with the “Secrets of the Ley Line”. Does it show the same dialogue for everyone, or is there a way to actually read it which isn’t covered in the wiki yet?

2) Apparently the city not only homes a Ley Line now, but all of the djinn are bound to it. “We have always been bound to Ahdashim. Long before we harnessed it. Ahdashim suckled from the ley line upon which it perched. For years, the city bent the elements to its will and thus protected the natural world from all tyranny and evil. Until, that is, four of our most powerful ancestors discovered a way to channel it themselves. After converging with the ley line, the Original Four displayed ethereal elementalism to become the first guardians...the Cardinals of Ahdashim.“ Which is fine in itself. But the key also states: “Ahdashim wasn't erected as a refuge for human princes. We were here well before Joko. And after, it seems.” This makes me question the timeline of the city.

During GW1 it is stated that the city is merely a vault of the human princes that the djinn guard. We also know that they are bound by humans whom they obey (Goren: "From here the princes command the power of the djinn.”), which implies that the city itself merely functions as a commander central for the time the princes reside there. But in GW2 the djinn act far more freely in “their” city. What happened to change the rule over the city so much? Apparently, the city was built by the Djinn who somehow got bound to it during the process. The Cardinals functioned as guardians to the city soon after. Then humans somehow managed to bind the djinn to them, most likely by getting the city under their control. This implies that they slew the first Cardinals during their invasion. The Key then picked out the new cardinals (“The Key will evaluate the most likely candidates and decide who is best suited.”), which should have been a last line of defense that we however never encounter when we invade the city in GW1. Then the time skip happens and in GW2 the city is ruled by the djinn again.

However, the djinn still seem to be bound to humans or at least Vabbi, as they do their best to protect it from the brand. So they still seem to be bound by royal blood. On the other hand, they act with a certain new freedom, like renovating the city. They did leave Gorens tomb untouched, meaning they either were still bound to guard it, or wanted to keep it intact to honor the human on their own. Perhaps he even died after the city was remodeled. Regardless, this implies that they still did take some orders from humans until this point. Which leaves the question: If one of the vabbian princes tried to reclaim their rule over Ahdashim, would the djinn be forced to let them do this? Also, many times djinn seem to act independent (Zohaquan, Ziya, Zommoros, who even got banished), so it seems to be possible for djinn to free themselves from their bindings to the city. Would these free djinn still care about Ahdashim´s fate?

3) The Key of Ahdashim was retconned to no longer be a djinn. (You could argue that it was never mentioned in GW1 that they were a normal djinn, but nothing hinted at this not being the case either, as other normal djinn also used the skin). Is there any Dev comment around explaining why they did it? Also, is it somewhere explained what happened to the Lock of Ahdashim?

4) What happened to Shiny? They not only put Gorens grave in the city but introduced a collection around Shiny weapons at the same time. (The name might simply be a nod to the Skritt, but I do believe it was also intended as a pointer to our little dragon.) Is there any hint about what happened to our potential vessel for another elder dragons power?

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@"Nikolai.3648" said:Apparently, the city was built by the Djinn who somehow got bound to it during the process.

I think you misunderstand what that bit was saying. Nothing in that bit is saying the "Original Four" built Ahdashim, and in fact the very same book you quoted states "It is a rather common delusion that [djinn] built the city of Ahdashim." It's unclear who built the city, be it human or older, but the Vabbian princes don't need to have built it to have bound djinn inhabiting it, nor do djinn need to have built it to have taken advantage of the ley lines coursing through it.

As for what changed: the humans changed. The Vabbian princes had control over the djinn - to a degree - but then Joko conquered Vabbi, and while many djinn did serve Joko as can be seen in the Garden of Seborhin, they also rebel against him as shown with the Wishing Well when you throw a mystic coin in there.

My implication is that the humans were the ones who introduced the djinn to the city, as The Original Four states: "We have always been bound to Ahdashim." If not Vabbians, someone over the eons ago did; the djinn did not find it of their own accord, by all indication.

As to not encountering the cardinals in GW1, are we so sure? During the very end of the mission, we killed a powerful fire, air, and water djinn (note that in GW1, there were no earth djinn ever depicted).

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@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@"Nikolai.3648" said:Apparently, the city was built by the Djinn who somehow got bound to it during the process.

I think you misunderstand what that bit was saying. Nothing in that bit is saying the "Original Four" built Ahdashim, and in fact the very same book you quoted states
"It is a rather common delusion that [djinn] built the city of Ahdashim."
It's unclear who built the city, be it human or older, but the Vabbian princes don't need to have built it to have bound djinn inhabiting it, nor do djinn need to have built it to have taken advantage of the ley lines coursing through it. [...] My implication is that the humans were the ones who introduced the djinn to the city, as
states:
"We have always been bound to Ahdashim."
If not Vabbians,
someone
over the eons ago did; the djinn did not find it of their own accord, by all indication.

Thanks for that explanation. That is indeed a possibility, seeing as djinn are at the end only elementals which can be bound. This of course begs the question of why the Key of Ahdashim appears to be a djinn(look-alike), when the city itself was not build by them. Especially since the Key claims: “I was made by the djinn as the first foundation stone was laid.” Which implies that the djinn in fact did build the city (or at least set the first stone). I am not sure if these two statements can coexist. Sure, you can say that both are true by claiming that it was just a random coincidence that these two events happened at the same time but are not related otherwise, but that implies that the Key wanted to mislead us, which there I can see no reason for. This leaves us with one misleading narrator. If I had to pick whom to trust, I would rather believe the being who claims to be as old as Ahdashim may know better what happened than a random air djinn (despite them claiming to be not a common djinn ?)

As to not encountering the cardinals in GW1, are we so sure? During the very end of the mission, we killed a powerful fire, air, and water djinn (note that in GW1, there were no earth djinn ever depicted).

The djinn had titles relating to their hierarchy even in GW1, as seen with the Fire- and Warter Lord during gift of the djinn. In fact, I would rather assume these 2 foes to be the GW1 equivalent to the cardinals than the 3 bosses who can also be encountered outside of Ahdashim (depending on the boss: mission as well as area). But judging from the fact we killed them (the Lords as well as the 3 bosses) and not much happened (compared to what the Key states would happen if the Key would not absorb their energy), we can safely assume that they were not the cardinals.

Edit: While I agree with you that earth djinn were rare, so were air djinn. For all we know, the diamond djinn could be either type. I am also curious why you would count Hajok Earthguardian as a water djinn. While it shares a skin with foes typical depicted as aliened to water (but not always, as seen with the non-elementalist casters (Mesmers and Ritualists)), the name does imply it being an earth djinn. The skin used does not equate the element. This also the case with Yartu, who is a river spirit but uses the rarest skin (which it shares with the Key, the Divine Guardians and the Thunder of Ahdashim) instead of the typical blue version.

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@Nikolai.3648 said:

@Nikolai.3648 said:Apparently, the city was built by the Djinn who somehow got bound to it during the process.

I think you misunderstand what that bit was saying. Nothing in that bit is saying the "Original Four" built Ahdashim, and in fact the very same book you quoted states
"It is a rather common delusion that [djinn] built the city of Ahdashim."
It's unclear who built the city, be it human or older, but the Vabbian princes don't need to have built it to have bound djinn inhabiting it, nor do djinn need to have built it to have taken advantage of the ley lines coursing through it. [...] My implication is that the humans were the ones who introduced the djinn to the city, as
states:
"We have always been bound to Ahdashim."
If not Vabbians,
someone
over the eons ago did; the djinn did not find it of their own accord, by all indication.

Thanks for that explanation. That is indeed a possibility, seeing as djinn are at the end only elementals which can be bound. This of course begs the question of why the Key of Ahdashim appears to be a djinn(look-alike), when the city itself was not build by them. Especially since the Key claims: “I was made by the djinn as the first foundation stone was laid.” Which implies that the djinn in fact did build the city (or at least set the first stone). I am not sure if these two statements can coexist. Sure, you can say that both are true by claiming that it was just a random coincidence that these two events happened at the same time but are not related otherwise, but that implies that the Key wanted to mislead us, which there I can see no reason for. This leaves us with one misleading narrator. If I had to pick whom to trust, I would rather believe the being who claims to be as old as Ahdashim may know better what happened than a random air djinn (despite them claiming to be not a common djinn ?)

I haven't had anything to do with the raid yet, but perhaps it works if Ahdashim and the djinn were created at the same time? If a second party created the djinn and then had them build Ahdashim at the second party's direction, then the argument could be made that djinn 'didn't build the city', while also explaining why most djinn believe they did.

Edit: While I agree with you that earth djinn were rare, so were air djinn. For all we know, the diamond djinn could be either type. I am also curious why you would count Hajok Earthguardian as a water djinn. While it shares a skin with foes typical depicted as aliened to water (but not always, as seen with the non-elementalist casters (Mesmers and Ritualists)), the name does imply it being an earth djinn. The skin used does not equate the element. This also the case with Yartu, who is a river spirit but uses the rarest skin (which it shares with the Key, the Divine Guardians and the Thunder of Ahdashim) instead of the typical blue version.

As far as diamond djinn go, they have five skills documented on the wiki- three that don't map to elements, Anthem of Flame, and Spear of Lightning. If we're arguing that diamond and ruby djinn can't both be fire, then Lightning Spear would indicate air.

(That said, Path of Fire and now this raid have pretty solidly undermined the idea that each djinn necessarily corresponds to one-and-only-one element. We've seen a couple that can swap on the fly, and now we now that the Key- and my guess would be the Guardians and Thunder as well- are constructs that, to my knowledge, don't display any particular elemental affinities.)

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@Aaron Ansari.1604 said:I haven't had anything to do with the raid yet, but perhaps it works if Ahdashim and the djinn were created at the same time? If a second party created the djinn and then had them build Ahdashim at the second party's direction, then the argument could be made that djinn 'didn't build the city', while also explaining why most djinn believe they did.

Sure, you can try to make the situation fit, but the Key should know better and imo lacks a reason to lie to us regarding this Trivia.

As far as diamond djinn go, they have five skills documented on the wiki- three that don't map to elements, Anthem of Flame, and Spear of Lightning. If we're arguing that diamond and ruby djinn can't both be fire, then Lightning Spear would indicate air.

If we go by skillset, water djinn are linked to fire (Heart of Holy Flame versus 0 of the other elements).

(That said, Path of Fire and now this raid have pretty solidly undermined the idea that each djinn necessarily corresponds to one-and-only-one element. We've seen a couple that can swap on the fly, and now we now that the Key- and my guess would be the Guardians and Thunder as well- are constructs that, to my knowledge, don't display any particular elemental affinities.)

To be honest, GW1 was never really that blunt regarding that all djinn needed to fit perfectly into one element and more importantly one skin per element, as you can see with the non-elementalist spellcasters. It was GW2 that kind of solidified that idea. The Thunder of Ahdashim for example appears to be air if we had to pin it down, but it shares the skin with a river spirit, meaning it is not generally a construct, nor exclusive to Ahdashim.

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@"Nikolai.3648" said:Thanks for that explanation. That is indeed a possibility, seeing as djinn are at the end only elementals which can be bound. This of course begs the question of why the Key of Ahdashim appears to be a djinn(look-alike), when the city itself was not build by them. Especially since the Key claims: “I was made by the djinn as the first foundation stone was laid.” Which implies that the djinn in fact did build the city (or at least set the first stone). I am not sure if these two statements can coexist. Sure, you can say that both are true by claiming that it was just a random coincidence that these two events happened at the same time but are not related otherwise, but that implies that the Key wanted to mislead us, which there I can see no reason for. This leaves us with one misleading narrator. If I had to pick whom to trust, I would rather believe the being who claims to be as old as Ahdashim may know better what happened than a random air djinn (despite them claiming to be not a common djinn ?)

What that statement ultimately says is that the Key was created around the same time as Ahdashim. It does not say that the djinn built Ahdashim - or, if you want to get really hair splitting, that the Key of Ahdashim was created to be the Key of Ahdashim originally, just that he and the city happen to be of the same age.

As to the rest about GW1 cardinals and skin associations, -shrug-. In all honesty, all "water djinn" have held the same model every time (exception being Zomorros); and same goes for every other djinn of a specified element. While we do see a few djinn using multiple elements, such as the Magic-Muddled Djinn, said djinn's model changes as they swap elements. Zohoqan is the only other djinn I can think of which is of more than one element, being a water djinn model and aura yet using lightning/air abilities and summoning earth and air elementals.

TBH, the model the Key used in GW1, always seemed more associated with earth than anything to me; but that may have just been me trying to close associations after diamond djinn = air. I'm not sure where I first heard that notion, but I do know it's been around for a long while.

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@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@Nikolai.3648 said:Thanks for that explanation. That is indeed a possibility, seeing as djinn are at the end only elementals which can be bound. This of course begs the question of why the Key of Ahdashim appears to be a djinn(look-alike), when the city itself was not build by them. Especially since the Key claims: “I was made by the djinn as the first foundation stone was laid.” Which implies that the djinn in fact did build the city (or at least set the first stone). I am not sure if these two statements can coexist. Sure, you can say that both are true by claiming that it was just a random coincidence that these two events happened at the same time but are not related otherwise, but that implies that the Key wanted to mislead us, which there I can see no reason for. This leaves us with one misleading narrator. If I had to pick whom to trust, I would rather believe the being who claims to be as old as Ahdashim may know better what happened than a random air djinn (despite them claiming to be not a common djinn ?)TBH, the model the Key used in GW1, always seemed more associated with earth than anything to me; but that may have just been me trying to close associations after diamond djinn = air. I'm not sure where I first heard that notion, but I do know it's been around for a long while.

Yeah it has been around for quite a while, but this is never a good argument. On the other hand, what would I not give for the djinn in GW2 using updated GW1 models instead of looking like mummies being thrown down the stairs into an elemental color pool.

What that statement ultimately says is that the Key was created around the same time as Ahdashim. It does not say that the djinn built Ahdashim - or, if you want to get really hair splitting, that the Key of Ahdashim was created to be the Key of Ahdashim originally, just that he and the city happen to be of the same age.

This does indeed seem to be the near only way to interpret the two quotes if you want to trust both of them. Doesn’t make it feel any better though…

Regardless, thank you both for your thoughts on the topic. I am afraid it is time to bury Shiny next to Malyck until we may get to dig them out again one day.

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