Steam Ogre above Thaumanova

It seems people often use mounts to get to the plattform and kill it leaving the majority of players unable to get credit for it because t is allready dead when the fire elemental is dead.Could something changed so mounts cant reach up there or the golem only spawns if you use the key on the console?

That seems a reasonable request. Haven’t done ogre for so long i hadn’t realised that could even happen

You can simply go on the platform and activate console without killing ogre (will disapear after a timer), troll seems to love it. It's annoying to always have "override disable" and being unable to do it....

There are other reasons why the Ogre might be dead before the Fire Elemental. In particular, the two have no immediate connection at all. None. You do not have to kill the Fire Elemental today to trigger the Ogre today; you just need the key from the four sources, which can be obtained at any time, (adding) including the charge that results from the FE's death. There's no causal connection between the FE's death today; any previous kill will have done the trick.

That is why, long before mounts, people would sometimes trigger the Ogre while waiting for the Fire Elemental to spawn (because it's such a horribly long wait). Long before mounts, some people would, as @"hugo.4705" mentions, trigger the Ogre without killing it. Or sometimes people would trigger it well outside the Fire Elemental's spawn time.

Here's a solution I'd like to see

• During the last FE pre-event, the same five minute count down works on the Ogre's Platform, so that when the pre ends, the Platform is wiped and blocked from access.
• That barrier remains until the Fire Elemental dies.
• FE's death triggers a 3 minute countdown, at the end of which: the console automatically opens (no keys needed), the barriers are removed, and two minutes later, the Ogre spawns.

This allows the following:

• People can continue to collect keys to reach the Ogre at any time they like, except for when FE is up and a few minutes after (i.e. most of the day).
• Everyone participating in FE can reach the Ogre without a key.

Bonus change:It would amuse me if ANet also added one more change:

! If anyone triggers the console with a key during the FE, they are transported to a different platform.! This platform has no exits and contains five Champion Trolls, which are invulnerable.! * They each have one line of dialogue, which they repeat incessantly: "stop giving our race a bad name."

I've edited the above to avoid confusion about the lack of immediate connection, as well as clarified below.

@Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:There are other reasons why the Ogre might be dead before the Fire Elemental. In particular, the two have no connection at all. None. You do not have to kill the Fire Elemental to trigger the Ogre; you just need the key from the four sources, which can be obtained at any time.

The remains of the fire elemental are needed to charge the key with fire. Maybe now they remain longer. I remember them dissapearing a while after the elemental died, so you needed to kill the elemental to give the key its final charge. Once it is charged it can be used any time, if the ogre is alive, but often it is used shortly after the elemental.

If inserting the key in the console spawned the golem, you would still be able use it any time you want, but trolls climbing up there with mounts wouldnt matter, because the golem isnt there yet.

@Crystal Black.8190 said:

@Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:There are other reasons why the Ogre might be dead before the Fire Elemental. In particular, the two have no connection at all. None. You do not have to kill the Fire Elemental to trigger the Ogre; you just need the key from the four sources, which can be obtained at any time.

Absolutely.It's a little weird to state the two (Steam Ogre and Fire Elemental) have no connection, when the death of one is needed to (legitimately) access the other.There just needs to be an invisible bowl shaped, or even a cubed room barrier placed around the platform of the Steam Ogre spawn. Or increase the height of his platform by 5,000 units

It has always been possible for the Ogre to be unavailable after FE; this isn't new to mounts, so moving the Ogre farther away or restricting access just returns the situation to the status quo of 2013; it doesn't actually address the underlying issue.

You can charge the key today and save it for 2 years before using it; to reach the Ogre legitimately today, you need not kill FE today (any time in the past will have done just as well).

Examples:

• Feb 2015 guild that opened Steam Ogre before FE, daily.
• Someone locked out as a result of above
• 2016, similar complaint
• 2014, same again

If ANet spends any effort at all on this, I'd much prefer they come up with something that allows people to reach the Ogre as they originally envisioned:

• With proper planning, at any time they like.
• With last minute planning, immediately after killing the FE.

I'm not fussy about how they accomplish it.

Yeah, the charge for the key from the Fire Elemental is probably the easiest to get (or was). I've had a key with that charge on it for years, but lacking the others.

You can just go there with a rift as well.

Someone could also just leave a character on the platform ...

what the heck. I thought this was fixed, I guess I must have been dreaming it XDit's so easy to get to the platform with gryph or skyscale.

all you'd need to do would be to put an invisible wall up around it, much like the place where you fall down into, and shift the exit portal, or make it appear on the condition the ogre is defeated.

alternately perhaps try to shift the physical platform below the map.

I really don’t think this is that big of a deal. You can cheese your way up there a few ways that don’t involve mounts at all. If an invisible wall or dismount is put up or around the area I will cheese my way up there and kill it before anyone else out of protest. I don’t like invasive invisible walls and forced dismount zones around things that aren’t jumping puzzles. I like to fly around and chill in the sky and hop from high platforms to other high platforms.

I don’t see why the champ matters, not everyone is entitled to credit for every champion near a world boss. It’s just another “two blues and a green” style loot so people aren’t missing out on anything big or progress breaking, I don’t think this really needs much attention beyond people pointing out that it’s on “principle”, which arguments I find often invoke fallacies of popularity and tradition when debated, all for the sake of preserving something that is the equivalent across the world map. So what? Do we make it so no one is allowed to solo champs anymore?

The more valid argument I see is that some people need it for a collection/achievement. My response to that is: there are other times you can kill it than the set timer when the world boss spawns. Which I suspect is why it can be easily soloed.

That said if we can’t leave this alone my more preferred change would buff it so it can’t be so easily soloed, so people who need it will be forced to wait for the timer, get a group together, or spend a long fight with something that can one shot them. (Which imo would add to the fun instead of taking it away, or being restrictive.)

If something “restrictive” is to be done, I’d have no real problems with tying with the spawn to the key, if only because flying around on platforms and such is part of the fun of mounts, and restricted zones and invisible walls can be oppressive, and I don’t think a random champion that is easily soloed on any class is worth putting either.

Making it harder is a fair point, too, which is probably more easier to be done.

And I mean about that "not a big deal" ... sure but it's about the morality of being fair. like diddling every other player out of a few extra rewards just so you can get it with no effort may not seem like a big deal.It can also add up. say you're doing the world boss train every day, when you get up to FE, people always have a key.. but what's that? someone already did it while you were fighting FE.. and that happens every single time. to every player that didn't decide to be greedy about it.

And that then becomes the norm. snipe the extra boss before anyone else. That's not exactly the point of a world boss is it?

I'm sure that eventually will have you feeling the McDonald's fries.

@Larynkir.6130 said:And that then becomes the norm. snipe the extra boss before anyone else. That's not exactly the point of a world boss is it?

The point I’m mostly making is that it’s not a world boss, it can be killed any time before or after the boss so long as it’s off cooldown.

Also the morality is only because of a tradition. If the champ didn’t happen to be “on the way” no one would care.

If it became normalized I would see it as any other champ that is easily reached by ppl with mounts or know how to cheese their way up. Leaving the key for anyone without PoF. (all you need is bunny.)

Also what is to stop people from saving keys and killing it early anyways?

@"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:It has always been possible for the Ogre to be unavailable after FE; this isn't new to mounts, so moving the Ogre farther away or restricting access just returns the situation to the status quo of 2013; it doesn't actually address the underlying issue.

You can charge the key today and save it for 2 years before using it; to reach the Ogre legitimately today, you need not kill FE today (any time in the past will have done just as well).

Examples:

• Feb 2015 guild that opened Steam Ogre before FE, daily.
• Someone locked out as a result of above
• 2016, similar complaint
• 2014, same again

---

If ANet spends any effort at all on this, I'd much prefer they come up with something that allows people to reach the Ogre as they originally envisioned:

• With proper planning, at any time they like.
• With last minute planning, immediately after killing the FE.

I'm not fussy about how they accomplish it.

Therefore the two events are in fact directly connected.. no one is saying you can't wait to use your charged key, only that the FE is essential in getting your key charged thus tying the 2 events directly together.It makes sense if they are so connected that they run concurrently , access to the console should only be possible for a specified time after the FE dies.. if you choose to wait then you gotta do the FE again in order to get access to the console.This would also serve to stop trolling of the event prior to FE and make mounts irrelevant anyway

@Daishi.6027 said:Also the morality is only because of a tradition. If the champ didn’t happen to be “on the way” no one would care.

Yeah probably, but it is in fact on the way, and does, in fact reward everyone in the event area, not just one person.

Maybe i'm not seeing it here, but would you be able to explain the personal gain rather than being nice to the community?

It's literally selfishness or being opportunistic vs just waiting and sharing (the same chance of rewards) with everyone there, with the chance of getting it anyway if you attended.

@Larynkir.6130 said:

@"Daishi.6027" said:Also the morality is only because of a tradition. If the champ didn’t happen to be “on the way” no one would care.

Well the personal gain is so minimal that the amount of selfishness being attributed I don't think is worth protecting or restricting. If anything the biggest "reward" these people get is how annoyed people get at them for doing it. In which case your best defense is to not feed the troll, the more you care the bigger the reward is for them.

My biggest issues is with the double standard, or the precedent it sets. I never want to get to a point where as a player who takes great pleasure in soloing champs, among soloing other things, that it is then somehow a taboo because I didn't wait for people. Granted, I mean this for things more challenging than the steam ogre.However, this is where it starts and that mentality grows. There was a time early game in Orr where if you actively completed an event instead of letting it fail to farm rewards "you were being selfish", granted these situations are different but champs somehow becoming a communal thing that everyone is entitled to participate in, and others need to actively preserve for them is kind of nonsense to me.If people started killing the champ plains wurm after shatterer, and people were not allowed to complete that event, and anyone who did was branded as selfish; I think a reasonable response is "f off, and go get your two blues and a green somewhere else." Which makes me feel like this is a legit "plenty of fish in the sea" result. What's the problem with going and fishing somewhere else?

But let's say this becomes a thing and A-net acquiesces to these types of demands? Now champs become a protected class as soon as anyone complains it was getting farmed before they could reach it. Also keep in mind we're talking about the same company who need to changed how slow functioned because of how quickness functioned, and the direct response I got from a dev was "for the sake of keeping things simple and homogenized". So I absolutely could see the precedent being set becoming an issue, on top of already finding it a bit silly if we start putting unnecessary walls in the sky, but I'm operating and premising my arguments under the presumption that people can still get up there without mounts.

It would be nice for everyone to wait and share it, and I think given enough time people will. Most of the people who do it I doubt do it for the loot and are only getting a rise out of the people who get mad at it. Which everything else aside, if we are just talking morals: Much like how the body builds anti-bodies as a resistance after a vaccine, which hurts and may inject something a little bit bad into you; it develops a stronger tolerance, and in this case will give the community a little bit of a thicker skin. I view the results of that more morally sound than the pandering.

Another suggestion I have is not make the pre so long so people are less tempted to do it out of boredom. (considering FE dies in about 30 seconds, if that.)

@"Larynkir.6130" said:Making it harder is a fair point, too, which is probably more easier to be done.

And I mean about that "not a big deal" ... sure but it's about the morality of being fair. like diddling every other player out of a few extra rewards just so you can get it with no effort may not seem like a big deal.It can also add up. say you're doing the world boss train every day, when you get up to FE, people always have a key.. but what's that? someone already did it while you were fighting FE.. and that happens every single time. to every player that didn't decide to be greedy about it.

And that then becomes the norm. snipe the extra boss before anyone else. That's not exactly the point of a world boss is it?

I'm sure that eventually will have you feeling the McDonald's fries.

You are making a mountain out of a champ bag shaped mole hill ...

@Bloodstealer.5978 said:

@"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:It has

always

been possible for the Ogre to be unavailable after FE; this isn't new to mounts, so moving the Ogre farther away or restricting access just returns the situation to the status quo of 2013; it doesn't actually address the underlying issue.

You can charge the key today and save it for 2 years before using it; to reach the Ogre

legitimately

today, you need not kill FE today (any time in the past will have done just as well).

Examples:

• Feb 2015 guild that opened Steam Ogre
  before
  FE, daily.
• Someone locked out as a result of above
• 2016, similar complaint
• 2014, same again

---

If ANet spends

any

effort at all on this, I'd much prefer they come up with something that allows people to reach the Ogre as they originally envisioned:

• With proper planning, at any time they like.
• With last minute planning, immediately after killing the FE.

I'm not fussy about how they accomplish it.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Class_I_Rift_Stabilizer#Locations location 9 ANet doesn't seem to think they should be linked since that allows bypassing fire elemental entirely.

The other day people were sad that they couldn't get to ogre to do it after FE. So a mesmer portaled people up so everyone could do it.

Well the personal gain is so minimal that the amount of selfishness being attributed I don't think is worth protecting or restricting. If anything the biggest "reward" these people get is how annoyed people get at them for doing it. In which case your best defense is to not feed the troll, the more you care the bigger the reward is for them.

I mean, I know you do get those types of people, which is inevitable.in this specific case it's abusing a cool down timer, and as of right now, you're right about the best coarse of action being not to feed the trolls.

My biggest issues is with the double standard, or the precedent it sets. I never want to get to a point where as a player who takes great pleasure in soloing champs, among soloing other things, that it is then somehow a taboo because I didn't wait for people. Granted, I mean this for things more challenging than the steam ogre.

Completely valid too. if a champ is up on the map, kill it if you can. I assume they usually would have a timer to respawn.But the steam ogre has specific mechanics to spawn, most likely for a reason. both an activation cooldown timer and gate access item.

However, this is where it starts and that mentality grows. There was a time early game in Orr where if you actively completed an event instead of letting it fail to farm rewards "you were being selfish", granted these situations are different but champs somehow becoming a communal thing that everyone is entitled to participate in, and others need to actively preserve for them is kind of nonsense to me.

The Orr case is a little hard, there because it's a community mindset vs a coded map event, with which I assume again has a timer and no specific spawn/gate mechanics, so the example there can go a little more either way in regards to [community rules about the event VS the coded way you should complete the event] but that's off the topic of this specific case.in this case we would be thinking of [individual rules vs the coded event]

But let's say this becomes a thing and A-net acquiesces to these types of demands? Now champs become a protected class as soon as anyone complains it was getting farmed before they could reach it. Also keep in mind we're talking about the same company who need to changed how slow functioned because of how quickness functioned, and the direct response I got from a dev was "for the sake of keeping things simple and homogenized". So I absolutely could see the precedent being set becoming an issue, on top of already finding it a bit silly if we start putting unnecessary walls in the sky, but I'm operating and premising my arguments under the presumption that people can still get up there without mounts.

I'd assume the complaints against a specific champ would have to be big enough to take into account a change, for that specific champ. not saying all of them would require such measures.As for the walls in the sky. The barrier around the entrance of the ogre fight is one such thing. Which I assume is also there for the explicit reason for disallowing entrance in pre mount days.and even if you were crafty enough to get up with no mount, that would still be exploiting a bug.

It would be nice for everyone to wait and share it, and I think given enough time people will. Most of the people who do it I doubt do it for the loot and are only getting a rise out of the people who get mad at it. Which everything else aside, if we are just talking morals: Much like how the body builds anti-bodies as a resistance after a vaccine, which hurts and may inject something a little bit bad into you; it develops a stronger tolerance, and in this case will give the community a little bit of a thicker skin. I view the results of that more morally sound than the pandering.

Another suggestion I have is not make the pre so long so people are less tempted to do it out of boredom. (considering FE dies in about 30 seconds, if that.)

I mean yeah, I do see the point that leaving it as it is will make everyone get over it/thicker skin ect and pandering to such things is considered weak.I guess my own whole argument here is that the event was specifically made before the mount era, and really made in mind so you were not able to freely access it like i am assuming other champs are able to be, where the counter arguments would make more sense.

@Khisanth.2948 said:You are making a mountain out of a champ bag shaped mole hill ...

I mean this whole topic/event though, which is up for discussion of mechanics.

There is a simple work around. People tried to get to the Steam Ogre after a couple of the recent Fire Elemental events I was at and both times it was on cool down. So I went and got myself a key, gave it the final charge at the next FE event and tried for the Ogre. For the third time in a row it was on cool down. I logged out right there and came back about 45 minutes before the beginning of the next FE event. After throwing on a mentor tag I announced in map chat that I was going to try the Steam Ogre in 3 minutes if anyone wanted to come along. The time limit was to minimize the chance of a troll flying up there to mess things up. Four people showed up and we took out the Ogre quite nicely. I got my AP and charged up Chaos Orb while finishing the whole thing in plenty of time to allow the cool down to reset before the upcoming FE event.

It would be nice if people played courteously and didn't get angry when asked not to impede other players. Sadly that's not the world, or even the game world we live in. So if you are wanting to do the Ogre, this work around might help. In case you don't know, the wiki does have a reasonable guide on how to find the key and get it charged. And I do have to add that while there are trolls, ingame and elsewhere, there really are courteous folks too. While I was searching for the key, a random player passing by saw the key before I did and told me where it was. Sweet! I thanked the player ingame and am only sorry I didn't get their toon's name or I'd give them a shout out here too.

@Chichimec.9364 said:It would be nice if people played courteously and didn't get angry when asked not to impede other players

I just wanted to point out that it goes both ways. Those doing FE don't own the steam ogre champ just as those who used to do the Queensdale champ train did not own the champs.