why does anet hate core guard & DH? — Guild Wars 2 Forums

why does anet hate core guard & DH?

Were either of these ever OP in the past few years? Don't think they ever gave people many issues except at lower tiers. Why nerf?
Slowest pvp class, lowest health pool... and now mediocre DPS. Are any builds even viable at higher levels anymore or do we have to suck it up and play FB?
If Anet wanted to force people to play different builds, shouldn't they have reasonably buffed other traits/lines to encourage those, not tanked what was currently working?

<1

Comments

  • Crab Fear.1624Crab Fear.1624 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Weak?
    Compare it to something.

    Soon™ ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

  • AngelLovesFredrik.6741AngelLovesFredrik.6741 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 18, 2019

    It was never meta, it was passable however.

    Daze on traps needed to go, that was complete bull. The rest should be rolled back though.
    "Guard is supposed to guard, not damage." -gw community

    ~ God Tier Guardian

  • Zephoid.4263Zephoid.4263 Member ✭✭✭

    While i can agree with the 50%-25% crit change for rental, give guard SOMETHING back.

    Guard's shouts are straight garbage. they don't give many boons and the duration are god awful. Most haven't seen a change since release and they weren't even competitive back then.
    Spirit weapons are still bad. Mid cast time and delay for effect isn't a viable combination.
    Medis were go-to for a long time, but they have been nerfed a few times and have been power crept pretty hard.
    Consecrations are a joke. Not even remotely competitive in pvp, only wall is ever used in any game mode.

    You had very limited build options for any form of power guard and they received 3 separate nerfs (smite conditions, glacial heart, RI) without any meaningful buffs.

    Hammer guard saw repeated nerfs back to back on a build that wasn't competitive in any format. The cast time on every effect hammer has are incredibly long and do very middling damage/effects.
    GS guard was low-mid plat competitive when mirages were popular, but the RI crit nerf without any compensating buffs killed that. Previously gs guard lost to holos, sb, or revs, now they get dominated by them.
    DH hasn't been competitive since the initial round of heavy handed nerfs after HoT release.

    I'd love to see something done for power guards, but i really don't have confidence that Anet has a good grasp on what is wrong. I'm betting on some concentration cd buffs or something meaningless like that. Guard's problems have been apparent since release and haven't been solved, so why now?

  • Derm.4932Derm.4932 Member ✭✭✭

    dont worry u can always play side noder firebrand and spam symbols for incredibly fun and interactive gameplay

  • Lilyanna.9361Lilyanna.9361 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 18, 2019

    Was 1v1ing my friends on core/DH and yes, guardian DPS is straight toilet water now. They barely dent any class that can keep protection up often and they do nothing to scrapper. Their condi hardly has any cover so even a druid can nullify any output there. Their rune solely focuses on having them be able to keep up with a class passively, but not with swiftness so their mobility still sucks.

    It's literally ele but less drastic. They have support FB and they are really good at that. Any dps variants are horribly sub-par since they can't 1v1 the main classes reliably.

  • Edge.8724Edge.8724 Member ✭✭✭

    @Crab Fear.1624 said:

    @AngelLovesFredrik.6741 said:
    It was never meta, it was passable however.

    Daze on traps needed to go, that was complete bull. The rest should be rolled back though.
    "Guard is supposed to guard, not damage." -gw community

    Doesn't it suck when the "community" decides your role versus the one originally described by the developers who created the game?

    From the game itself; Guardians are specialiased in defensive magic. They should be able to defend at least. Right now, they sucks at dammage and defense. (unless you're a firebrand it seems)

    Core Guardian should be a bruiser.

    Dragonhunter should be high dammage with a bit if support but only in their virtues.

    Firebrand plays its role as intended which is full support/Dammage over time.

    This might sound or even be subjective, but these are my views for the Guardian.
    Yes, specialise in defensive magic, yet they smite their foes and empower their allies (hence why I put core guard bruiser style)

    Dragonhunter are inspired by wich hunters, they are zealous in their mission on exterminating dragons. They should do more dammage than that while keeping their support from their virtues (really like the DH virtues as they are right now).

  • Alatar.7364Alatar.7364 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Crab Fear.1624 said:

    @AngelLovesFredrik.6741 said:
    It was never meta, it was passable however.

    Daze on traps needed to go, that was complete bull. The rest should be rolled back though.
    "Guard is supposed to guard, not damage." -gw community

    Doesn't it suck when the "community" decides your role versus the one originally described by the developers who created the game?

    I see what you did there

    ~ I Aear cân ven na mar

  • skillze.7689skillze.7689 Member ✭✭

    guardian has never been weak i remember playing guardian when thief was pure crit strike beasts and could still beat them and the heartseeker spam.

  • @Stand The Wall.6987 said:
    a lot of it has to do with teleporting instant damage. anet cracked down on it a while back.

    When was this? Like the 2015 Judge's Intervention midair change or more recently? I always thought the Leap of Faith/Mighty Blow + Judge's Intervention combo was slow and telegraphed enough to I guess balance whatever advantage a teleport burst attack offered.

  • Stand The Wall.6987Stand The Wall.6987 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 18, 2019

    @Saharo Gravewind.5120 said:

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:
    a lot of it has to do with teleporting instant damage. anet cracked down on it a while back.

    When was this? Like the 2015 Judge's Intervention midair change or more recently? I always thought the Leap of Faith/Mighty Blow + Judge's Intervention combo was slow and telegraphed enough to I guess balance whatever advantage a teleport burst attack offered.

    I don't think they messed with that combo functionally speaking but i'm pretty sure they nerfed the damage. that plus righteous instincts nerf.

    edit
    hmm no just checked i'm trippin. i'm thinking of the nerf to traits that do instant damage for some reason.

    Te lazla otstra.
    nerf list

  • Crab Fear.1624Crab Fear.1624 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Saharo Gravewind.5120 said:

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:
    a lot of it has to do with teleporting instant damage. anet cracked down on it a while back.

    When was this? Like the 2015 Judge's Intervention midair change or more recently? I always thought the Leap of Faith/Mighty Blow + Judge's Intervention combo was slow and telegraphed enough to I guess balance whatever advantage a teleport burst attack offered.

    most start this kitten behind a wall..down the stairs....hiding in the crowd

    Soon™ ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

  • Stand The Wall.6987Stand The Wall.6987 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 18, 2019

    @Crab Fear.1624 said:

    @Saharo Gravewind.5120 said:

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:
    a lot of it has to do with teleporting instant damage. anet cracked down on it a while back.

    When was this? Like the 2015 Judge's Intervention midair change or more recently? I always thought the Leap of Faith/Mighty Blow + Judge's Intervention combo was slow and telegraphed enough to I guess balance whatever advantage a teleport burst attack offered.

    most start this kitten behind a wall..down the stairs....hiding in the crowd

    yeah that's what was wrong with it. so they nerfed righteous instincts and made that trait unusable with Valkyrie amulet.

    Te lazla otstra.
    nerf list

  • mrauls.6519mrauls.6519 Member ✭✭✭

    Power DH needs buffs

  • Crab Fear.1624Crab Fear.1624 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Buff guard damage. BIG DAMAGE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Then, take away all teleports. ALLL of them.

    Soon™ ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

  • @Stand The Wall.6987 said:

    @Crab Fear.1624 said:

    @Saharo Gravewind.5120 said:

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:
    a lot of it has to do with teleporting instant damage. anet cracked down on it a while back.

    When was this? Like the 2015 Judge's Intervention midair change or more recently? I always thought the Leap of Faith/Mighty Blow + Judge's Intervention combo was slow and telegraphed enough to I guess balance whatever advantage a teleport burst attack offered.

    most start this kitten behind a wall..down the stairs....hiding in the crowd

    yeah that's what was wrong with it. so they nerfed righteous instincts and made that trait unusable with Valkyrie amulet.

    Yeah that's the only way to get it to land, creep around like an extremely slow, extremely visible thief.
    Annoying to deal with, but I don't think it was broken. Was that why they nerfed guard DPS in general? Because reworking LoF/MB + JI was too troublesome?

    Cause teleports are the only way guards can move around at a passable speed. Hammer and GS moves are so slow too.

    Different issue: I've always wondered why the hell is guard 11k health despite being heavy armor and thematically into protective/defensive magic? I'm guessing aegis/blocks went a lot further pre-HOT/powercreep? Even a defensive oriented build now is squishy at best.

  • mortrialus.3062mortrialus.3062 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I think core guard and DH's best hope is for enough nerfs to over performing specs to lower builds down to their level.

    The Psychomancer: Mesmer Elite Specialization Suggestion

  • praqtos.9035praqtos.9035 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 18, 2019

    @mrauls.6519 said:
    Power DH needs buffs

    Nerf DH!111
    Never let it be viable! Say no to traps ! Say no to unskilled gameplay and busted recharge on background for traps!1111111 :kissing_wink:

  • Cobrakon.3108Cobrakon.3108 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 18, 2019

    HAHA HA HA HH A HA H H H HAH AH AH A

    (thief and thief's plight)

  • Zephoid.4263Zephoid.4263 Member ✭✭✭

    @Saharo Gravewind.5120 said:

    Different issue: I've always wondered why the hell is guard 11k health despite being heavy armor and thematically into protective/defensive magic? I'm guessing aegis/blocks went a lot further pre-HOT/powercreep? Even a defensive oriented build now is squishy at best.

    Nah, aegis was always built into useless skills (why the hell does Retreat! have aegis and not vigor) and overvalued by devs due to its impact in PVE on bosses that hit slow. Guard was always super squishy for no reason that i could determine. RI made up for it with the ability to slot in some valk to bump up hp, but now thats gone too. Thats why medis were so necessary for so long, since you needed the 2k heal/ability to offset your tiny hp pool.

  • TheUnknown.5204TheUnknown.5204 Member ✭✭
    edited June 18, 2019

    I love playing my guardian
    But I agree, He need's some love please anet.

  • Darth.7623Darth.7623 Member ✭✭

    Because it's the original passive insta-cast aoe spam class. Should not exist.

  • otto.5684otto.5684 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @mortrialus.3062 said:
    I think core guard and DH's best hope is for enough nerfs to over performing specs to lower builds down to their level.

    Pre RI nerf I think core guardian was decent. Now? With its current power level, meta classes will need to get somewhere in the range of 20% effectiveness nerf for core guardian or DH to be competitive. It is extremely unlikely this will happen.

    Rev can cast PT every 5 secs, no one cares. Guardian casts JI (which is pretty similar skill) every 36 secs and everyone loses their mind.

    My only conclusion is that Anet does not want guardian to have viable dps builds, or they are extremely incompetent. Considering the last 3-4 balance patches, I am not sure which is it anymore.

  • mortrialus.3062mortrialus.3062 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @otto.5684 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:
    I think core guard and DH's best hope is for enough nerfs to over performing specs to lower builds down to their level.

    Pre RI nerf I think core guardian was decent. Now? With its current power level, meta classes will need to get somewhere in the range of 20% effectiveness nerf for core guardian or DH to be competitive. It is extremely unlikely this will happen.

    Condi Mirage got a 50-70% damage cut on all it's skills. It's not impossible.

    My only conclusion is that Anet does not want guardian to have viable dps builds, or they are extremely incompetent. Considering the last 3-4 balance patches, I am not sure which is it anymore.

    Agreed. Every since the December balance patch balance has been trending for the worse with less build diversity since Path Of Fire's launch.

    The Psychomancer: Mesmer Elite Specialization Suggestion

  • Daishi.6027Daishi.6027 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 18, 2019

    You either get to be sticky with decently sustained burst on a target without letting them get away. OR You get to have decently sustained massive burst.
    Not both.

    For whatever reason A-net decided to nerf the damage instead of the stickyness by nerfing Righteous Instinct's so you can't halfass it with valks, and now forced to take marauder like everyone else. Honestly this was a long time coming and kind of a double standard.

    Yes DPS Guard is under-performing right now compared to the likes of Engie, War, Ranger, Rev. However, hopefully soon they will be nerfed in an equivalent way; down to par with everything else that got significantly nerfed around March/April.

    I wish they did it all at once, clearly they can't.

    Also I wish people would stop jumping to "A-net hates X" when there is no historical precedent for that, and if anything there is more evidence to the contrary.

  • Menyus.4610Menyus.4610 Member ✭✭✭

    @Saharo Gravewind.5120 said:
    Were either of these ever OP in the past few years? Don't think they ever gave people many issues except at lower tiers. Why nerf?
    Slowest pvp class, lowest health pool... and now mediocre DPS. Are any builds even viable at higher levels anymore or do we have to suck it up and play FB?
    If Anet wanted to force people to play different builds, shouldn't they have reasonably buffed other traits/lines to encourage those, not tanked what was currently working?

    Around HOT DH was the most op class introduced, i was fighting with SA scrubs on EB when they bring 3 thieves, they were constantly hunting me, so i turned on my friend pc logged on his dh palced down traps and deleted the 3 thives 3 times in a row

  • @Menyus.4610 said:

    @Saharo Gravewind.5120 said:
    Were either of these ever OP in the past few years? Don't think they ever gave people many issues except at lower tiers. Why nerf?
    Slowest pvp class, lowest health pool... and now mediocre DPS. Are any builds even viable at higher levels anymore or do we have to suck it up and play FB?
    If Anet wanted to force people to play different builds, shouldn't they have reasonably buffed other traits/lines to encourage those, not tanked what was currently working?

    Around HOT DH was the most op class introduced, i was fighting with SA scrubs on EB when they bring 3 thieves, they were constantly hunting me, so i turned on my friend pc logged on his dh palced down traps and deleted the 3 thives 3 times in a row

    DH was strong in low tiers, just like core guard was. It never saw play in high tiers.

    Also funny you say DH was the most op class when bunker Chrono literally killed esports.

    DH had no real way of landing damage through; feedbacks, well of precognition, swirling winds, aftershock aura share, earth focus 4, defense gyro toolbelt, hammer 2,3,4 on scrapper, druid staff 5. Some necros even ran corrosive poison cloud.
    Want me to keep going?

    I can still farm 90% of the gw players on core guard, just like I could before the nerfs. But at a certain point, skill doesn't count for as much as the build.

    ~ God Tier Guardian

  • otto.5684otto.5684 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 18, 2019

    @AngelLovesFredrik.6741 Post RI nerf I took core guardian radiance/zeal/valor to P2, 9 wins and 3 losses. But that is where it caps regardless of your skill level. It cannot compete higher than 1650.

    Also, I am not sure what is this new trend of Anet moving threads to class forums. @Stephane Lo Presti.7258 this is a thread discussing core guardian in sPvP. When you move it guardian forums it is the equivalent of closing this thread. This was supposed to be discussion for all people who sPvP to discuss. In guardian forms, only guardian mains will see it.

  • praqtos.9035praqtos.9035 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 18, 2019

    @otto.5684 said:
    @AngelLovesFredrik.6741 Post RI nerf I took core guardian radiance/zeal/valor to P2, 9 wins and 3 losses. But that is where it caps regardless of your skill level. It cannot compete higher than 1650.

    Players can duo and go beyond 1650 . Living example is Bullet, he is finished at top14 (I dont pretend core guardian is good at the moment :D)

    Also, I am not sure what is this new trend of Anet moving threads to class forums.

    The same was done to mesmer thread, its kinda the least active subforum so far as I see... Pretty ded place

  • I agree that guardian overall is not perfect but I guess it depends a lot on how you build it, sometimes refering only on what is available on websites won't give you a visual on every aspects of a class, I actually do pretty well in every game mode with my condi core guard, and as I can see, it's far, far from mediocre dps wise, and has a lot of sustainability, and is less dependent than many other dps classes. Here is what you can achieve solo only with your own debuffs/boons :

    Permanent fury, 25 might, 25 vulnerability, 23k hp, has a bonus it's around 20k underwater, thanks to Permeating Wrath the burning cleave is just insane.

    About PvP and WvW, I just replace Bane signet for Wall of reflection, and switching from Unscathed contender to Master of consecration.
    The burning pressure is really High and I see a lot of players struggling with it, since people nowadays don't use this kind of builds anymore, they don't expect to have 5 burn stacks every second to clean.
    Aoe burn every 3 reflects, just imagine putting a Wall in front of a charging enemy zerg.

    The core guard is not considered meta nowadays but it's not weak, yet
    If they buff guardians they have to pay attention to not make it overpowered, resulting in a potential nerf that can cause even more damages to the class/spec.

  • @Only Even.6193 said:
    I agree that guardian overall is not perfect but I guess it depends a lot on how you build it, sometimes refering only on what is available on websites won't give you a visual on every aspects of a class, I actually do pretty well in every game mode with my condi core guard, and as I can see, it's far, far from mediocre dps wise, and has a lot of sustainability, and is less dependent than many other dps classes. Here is what you can achieve solo only with your own debuffs/boons :

    Permanent fury, 25 might, 25 vulnerability, 23k hp, has a bonus it's around 20k underwater, thanks to Permeating Wrath the burning cleave is just insane.

    About PvP and WvW, I just replace Bane signet for Wall of reflection, and switching from Unscathed contender to Master of consecration.
    The burning pressure is really High and I see a lot of players struggling with it, since people nowadays don't use this kind of builds anymore, they don't expect to have 5 burn stacks every second to clean.
    Aoe burn every 3 reflects, just imagine putting a Wall in front of a charging enemy zerg.

    The core guard is not considered meta nowadays but it's not weak, yet
    If they buff guardians they have to pay attention to not make it overpowered, resulting in a potential nerf that can cause even more damages to the class/spec.

    This is nothing of what the build looks like. And this thread has nothing to do with pve.

    ~ God Tier Guardian

  • Daishi.6027Daishi.6027 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 19, 2019

    @AngelLovesFredrik.6741 said:

    @Menyus.4610 said:

    @Saharo Gravewind.5120 said:
    Were either of these ever OP in the past few years? Don't think they ever gave people many issues except at lower tiers. Why nerf?
    Slowest pvp class, lowest health pool... and now mediocre DPS. Are any builds even viable at higher levels anymore or do we have to suck it up and play FB?
    If Anet wanted to force people to play different builds, shouldn't they have reasonably buffed other traits/lines to encourage those, not tanked what was currently working?

    Around HOT DH was the most op class introduced, i was fighting with SA scrubs on EB when they bring 3 thieves, they were constantly hunting me, so i turned on my friend pc logged on his dh palced down traps and deleted the 3 thives 3 times in a row

    DH was strong in low tiers, just like core guard was. It never saw play in high tiers.

    Also funny you say DH was the most op class when bunker Chrono literally killed esports.

    DH had no real way of landing damage through; feedbacks, well of precognition, swirling winds, aftershock aura share, earth focus 4, defense gyro toolbelt, hammer 2,3,4 on scrapper, druid staff 5. Some necros even ran corrosive poison cloud.
    Want me to keep going?

    I can still farm 90% of the gw players on core guard, just like I could before the nerfs. But at a certain point, skill doesn't count for as much as the build.

    I agree with what most of you said, particularly how it never really saw to much play in higher tiers and had a harder time in team fights. However, A-net through their actions over many years has made it clear that high play and top stats are not being taken into consideration, just take a look at everything that got nerfed (including guard) from March to April.

    That said your highlighted statement is disingenuous at best. You are either lying to prove your side of an argument or are ignorant of the truth. Here are the hard facts and data points that you can find yourself:
    ESL didn't drop GW2 until around May - April 2017.
    Chronobunk was broken late 2015 - early 2016 , and got nerfed pretty hard (rightfully so) in January, and more and more as the year went on.
    "Pro league 2016" following those nerfs had 1 mesmer in semifinals NA. Every team NA+EU: except for 1 EU semi-finalist (only with 1 rev) had 2 revs, followed by an ele and a necro.
    The following year leading up to the ESL cancellation the highest ranked top slots for seasons 3, 4, and 5, were primarily dominated by Engies, Ranger, Rev, and DD. With the most mesmers across those seasons during s3; only having 13 in top slots.
    By the by, Season 6 where ESL was officially announced to be dropped about mid way through finished with 18 guards, and with only 15 mesmers.
    Saying GW2 e-sports died because of mesmer is a lie.

  • @Daishi.6027 said:

    @AngelLovesFredrik.6741 said:

    @Menyus.4610 said:

    @Saharo Gravewind.5120 said:
    Were either of these ever OP in the past few years? Don't think they ever gave people many issues except at lower tiers. Why nerf?
    Slowest pvp class, lowest health pool... and now mediocre DPS. Are any builds even viable at higher levels anymore or do we have to suck it up and play FB?
    If Anet wanted to force people to play different builds, shouldn't they have reasonably buffed other traits/lines to encourage those, not tanked what was currently working?

    Around HOT DH was the most op class introduced, i was fighting with SA scrubs on EB when they bring 3 thieves, they were constantly hunting me, so i turned on my friend pc logged on his dh palced down traps and deleted the 3 thives 3 times in a row

    DH was strong in low tiers, just like core guard was. It never saw play in high tiers.

    Also funny you say DH was the most op class when bunker Chrono literally killed esports.

    DH had no real way of landing damage through; feedbacks, well of precognition, swirling winds, aftershock aura share, earth focus 4, defense gyro toolbelt, hammer 2,3,4 on scrapper, druid staff 5. Some necros even ran corrosive poison cloud.
    Want me to keep going?

    I can still farm 90% of the gw players on core guard, just like I could before the nerfs. But at a certain point, skill doesn't count for as much as the build.

    I agree with what most of you said, particularly how it never really saw to much play in higher tiers and had a harder time in team fights. However, A-net through their actions over many years has made it clear that high play and top stats are not being taken into consideration, just take a look at everything that got nerfed (including guard) from March to April.

    That said your highlighted statement is disingenuous at best. You are either lying to prove your side of an argument or are ignorant of the truth. Here are the hard facts and data points that you can find yourself:
    ESL didn't drop GW2 until around May - April 2017.
    Chronobunk was broken late 2015 - early 2016 , and got nerfed pretty hard (rightfully so) in January, and more and more as the year went on.
    "Pro league 2016" following those nerfs had 1 mesmer in semifinals NA. Every team NA+EU: except for 1 EU semi-finalist (only with 1 rev) had 2 revs, followed by an ele and a necro.
    The following year leading up to the ESL cancellation the highest ranked top slots for seasons 3, 4, and 5, were primarily dominated by Engies, Ranger, Rev, and DD. With the most mesmers across those seasons during s3; only having 13 in top slots.
    By the by, Season 6 where ESL was officially announced to be dropped about mid way through finished with 18 guards, and with only 15 mesmers.
    Saying GW2 e-sports died because of mesmer is a lie.

    That's only half the truth, look at how the viewing numbers dropped after the initial double Chrono, tempest double Condi rev meta. The numbers never returned to what it was after that.
    And it might've had something to do with the 0-15 15 minute games. Where one team went afk if they lost a cap or a teamfight.

    ~ God Tier Guardian

  • Daishi.6027Daishi.6027 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 19, 2019

    @AngelLovesFredrik.6741 said:

    @Daishi.6027 said:

    @AngelLovesFredrik.6741 said:

    @Menyus.4610 said:

    @Saharo Gravewind.5120 said:
    Were either of these ever OP in the past few years? Don't think they ever gave people many issues except at lower tiers. Why nerf?
    Slowest pvp class, lowest health pool... and now mediocre DPS. Are any builds even viable at higher levels anymore or do we have to suck it up and play FB?
    If Anet wanted to force people to play different builds, shouldn't they have reasonably buffed other traits/lines to encourage those, not tanked what was currently working?

    Around HOT DH was the most op class introduced, i was fighting with SA scrubs on EB when they bring 3 thieves, they were constantly hunting me, so i turned on my friend pc logged on his dh palced down traps and deleted the 3 thives 3 times in a row

    DH was strong in low tiers, just like core guard was. It never saw play in high tiers.

    Also funny you say DH was the most op class when bunker Chrono literally killed esports.

    DH had no real way of landing damage through; feedbacks, well of precognition, swirling winds, aftershock aura share, earth focus 4, defense gyro toolbelt, hammer 2,3,4 on scrapper, druid staff 5. Some necros even ran corrosive poison cloud.
    Want me to keep going?

    I can still farm 90% of the gw players on core guard, just like I could before the nerfs. But at a certain point, skill doesn't count for as much as the build.

    I agree with what most of you said, particularly how it never really saw to much play in higher tiers and had a harder time in team fights. However, A-net through their actions over many years has made it clear that high play and top stats are not being taken into consideration, just take a look at everything that got nerfed (including guard) from March to April.

    That said your highlighted statement is disingenuous at best. You are either lying to prove your side of an argument or are ignorant of the truth. Here are the hard facts and data points that you can find yourself:
    ESL didn't drop GW2 until around May - April 2017.
    Chronobunk was broken late 2015 - early 2016 , and got nerfed pretty hard (rightfully so) in January, and more and more as the year went on.
    "Pro league 2016" following those nerfs had 1 mesmer in semifinals NA. Every team NA+EU: except for 1 EU semi-finalist (only with 1 rev) had 2 revs, followed by an ele and a necro.
    The following year leading up to the ESL cancellation the highest ranked top slots for seasons 3, 4, and 5, were primarily dominated by Engies, Ranger, Rev, and DD. With the most mesmers across those seasons during s3; only having 13 in top slots.
    By the by, Season 6 where ESL was officially announced to be dropped about mid way through finished with 18 guards, and with only 15 mesmers.
    Saying GW2 e-sports died because of mesmer is a lie.

    That's only half the truth, look at how the viewing numbers dropped after the initial double Chrono, tempest double Condi rev meta. The numbers never returned to what it was after that.
    And it might've had something to do with the 0-15 15 minute games. Where one team went afk if they lost a cap or a teamfight.

    Okay, I'll admit that was pretty bad. However, that was only for 1 season, and double rev lasted A LOT longer, than double chorno. If those instances hurt anything, it's the lack of professionalism that killed it more.

    Besides this was A-nets biggest attempt to push for ESL support, and was announced/marketed/networked in October 2015. Of course it's numbers are going to spike; simply because of the collaboration and marketing. However, correlation isn't causation, and GW2 is not unfamilar with stupid metas (including 3 cele ele, petting zoo, and hambow.) GW2 by the masses, long before the ESL push; was considered uninteresting to watch for several reasons by the majority of it's player base. With that alone, I am not surprised in ANYWAY that the people stopped watching. Sure, that pathetic display didn't help.
    But it's not fair to blame 1 class, that was broken (and represented) for 1 meta Before pro league, while the other class chronobunk was paired with, was stacking two for a lot longer afterwards; and all while a large portion of people didn't enjoy watching GW2 pvp prior. It's not reasonable to blame chronobunk for the viewership and as the basis for why the Esports died...

    Also DH was a pretty reasonable counter to DPS mesmer following S1, and less of a counter to thief once DD existed (until it got nerfed more). Since Mesmer both DPS and chronobunk wasn't making it to top slots, and DH was bad for team fights, it stands to reason DH probably wouldn't climb very high either.

  • otto.5684otto.5684 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Only Even.6193 said:
    I agree that guardian overall is not perfect but I guess it depends a lot on how you build it, sometimes refering only on what is available on websites won't give you a visual on every aspects of a class, I actually do pretty well in every game mode with my condi core guard, and as I can see, it's far, far from mediocre dps wise, and has a lot of sustainability, and is less dependent than many other dps classes. Here is what you can achieve solo only with your own debuffs/boons :

    Permanent fury, 25 might, 25 vulnerability, 23k hp, has a bonus it's around 20k underwater, thanks to Permeating Wrath the burning cleave is just insane.

    About PvP and WvW, I just replace Bane signet for Wall of reflection, and switching from Unscathed contender to Master of consecration.
    The burning pressure is really High and I see a lot of players struggling with it, since people nowadays don't use this kind of builds anymore, they don't expect to have 5 burn stacks every second to clean.
    Aoe burn every 3 reflects, just imagine putting a Wall in front of a charging enemy zerg.

    The core guard is not considered meta nowadays but it's not weak, yet
    If they buff guardians they have to pay attention to not make it overpowered, resulting in a potential nerf that can cause even more damages to the class/spec.

    This thread was in sPvP forums before some genius at Anet mover it here. None of what you mentioned has any relevance in sPvP.

  • This is where the discussions are moved to die.

    ~ God Tier Guardian

  • Derm.4932Derm.4932 Member ✭✭✭

    next patch:
    "We feel like longbow is not where it should be so we have buffed symbol of energy to 1500 range."

  • RisenHowl.2419RisenHowl.2419 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 20, 2019

    Dh works fine in wvw, just takes a little practice. Game play at 12:30

  • Yannir.4132Yannir.4132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:

    Dh works fine in wvw, just takes a little practice. Game play at 12:30

    This is not about WvW.

    Yes Guardians, nobody cares about your WvW roaming videos.

  • alain.1659alain.1659 Member ✭✭✭

    That holy warlock build will be slain by any decent wvw roamer in my opinion. But again it is not my place to comment without trying.

    I think in the latest meta guardian and dh is really left behind. Dmg is low, survivability is low vs heavy cc classes in most builds. Even the stab uptime is lower than most professions if not solely focused on them.

    Dh longbow needs real buffs. Also it really bugs me when guardians f3 can be negated easily by many professions.

    Signets should be revised. I love them but they are somewhat "meh" compared to other profession signets (and traits). All others have already been said by more experienced guardian players than me. I am only obsessed with dh since it came out. Most guard dps builds havent been changed since 2015. (RI came and went away for a time)

    I hope anet gives guardians something good.

  • @alain.1659 said:
    That holy warlock build will be slain by any decent wvw roamer in my opinion. But again it is not my place to comment without trying.

    I think in the latest meta guardian and dh is really left behind. Dmg is low, survivability is low vs heavy cc classes in most builds. Even the stab uptime is lower than most professions if not solely focused on them.

    Dh longbow needs real buffs. Also it really bugs me when guardians f3 can be negated easily by many professions.

    Signets should be revised. I love them but they are somewhat "meh" compared to other profession signets (and traits). All others have already been said by more experienced guardian players than me. I am only obsessed with dh since it came out. Most guard dps builds havent been changed since 2015. (RI came and went away for a time)

    I hope anet gives guardians something good.

    shout's, signets and caserations are almost untouched they are pretty much 2012 gw2, for dh traps are lackluster and bow need a buff and f3 should last longer baseline.... and the problems go on an on on dh and core guard.

  • RisenHowl.2419RisenHowl.2419 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @alain.1659 said:
    That holy warlock build will be slain by any decent wvw roamer in my opinion. But again it is not my place to comment without trying.

    I think in the latest meta guardian and dh is really left behind. Dmg is low, survivability is low vs heavy cc classes in most builds. Even the stab uptime is lower than most professions if not solely focused on them.

    Dh longbow needs real buffs. Also it really bugs me when guardians f3 can be negated easily by many professions.

    Signets should be revised. I love them but they are somewhat "meh" compared to other profession signets (and traits). All others have already been said by more experienced guardian players than me. I am only obsessed with dh since it came out. Most guard dps builds havent been changed since 2015. (RI came and went away for a time)

    I hope anet gives guardians something good.

    It's not a roaming build and shouldn't be used as such lol

    That's like bringing a sic em sniper slb to a zerg fight and saying it doesn't work =/

  • LetoII.3782LetoII.3782 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:

    @alain.1659 said:
    That holy warlock build will be slain by any decent wvw roamer in my opinion. But again it is not my place to comment without trying.

    I think in the latest meta guardian and dh is really left behind. Dmg is low, survivability is low vs heavy cc classes in most builds. Even the stab uptime is lower than most professions if not solely focused on them.

    Dh longbow needs real buffs. Also it really bugs me when guardians f3 can be negated easily by many professions.

    Signets should be revised. I love them but they are somewhat "meh" compared to other profession signets (and traits). All others have already been said by more experienced guardian players than me. I am only obsessed with dh since it came out. Most guard dps builds havent been changed since 2015. (RI came and went away for a time)

    I hope anet gives guardians something good.

    It's not a roaming build and shouldn't be used as such lol

    That's like bringing a sic em sniper slb to a zerg fight and saying it doesn't work =/

    And saying a build is only good with 50 people standing behind you is saying the build is garbo but all the support makes for some passable clips.

    [HUNT] the predatory instinct

  • RisenHowl.2419RisenHowl.2419 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @LetoII.3782 said:

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:

    @alain.1659 said:
    That holy warlock build will be slain by any decent wvw roamer in my opinion. But again it is not my place to comment without trying.

    I think in the latest meta guardian and dh is really left behind. Dmg is low, survivability is low vs heavy cc classes in most builds. Even the stab uptime is lower than most professions if not solely focused on them.

    Dh longbow needs real buffs. Also it really bugs me when guardians f3 can be negated easily by many professions.

    Signets should be revised. I love them but they are somewhat "meh" compared to other profession signets (and traits). All others have already been said by more experienced guardian players than me. I am only obsessed with dh since it came out. Most guard dps builds havent been changed since 2015. (RI came and went away for a time)

    I hope anet gives guardians something good.

    It's not a roaming build and shouldn't be used as such lol

    That's like bringing a sic em sniper slb to a zerg fight and saying it doesn't work =/

    And saying a build is only good with 50 people standing behind you is saying the build is garbo but all the support makes for some passable clips.

    It's good against large groups because of how permeating wrath works.

    I think you'll find it hard to roam with any zerg based build or zerg with a roaming build. If that's not something you understand I think you'll have trouble succeeding at either man =/

  • alain.1659alain.1659 Member ✭✭✭

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:

    @alain.1659 said:
    That holy warlock build will be slain by any decent wvw roamer in my opinion. But again it is not my place to comment without trying.

    I think in the latest meta guardian and dh is really left behind. Dmg is low, survivability is low vs heavy cc classes in most builds. Even the stab uptime is lower than most professions if not solely focused on them.

    Dh longbow needs real buffs. Also it really bugs me when guardians f3 can be negated easily by many professions.

    Signets should be revised. I love them but they are somewhat "meh" compared to other profession signets (and traits). All others have already been said by more experienced guardian players than me. I am only obsessed with dh since it came out. Most guard dps builds havent been changed since 2015. (RI came and went away for a time)

    I hope anet gives guardians something good.

    It's not a roaming build and shouldn't be used as such lol

    That's like bringing a sic em sniper slb to a zerg fight and saying it doesn't work =/

    Sorry, that is my mistake. As the topic was mainly on the power of dh and guard itself I did not think that you would show a zerg build. It looks like a good zerg build but many builds can work wonders in a coordinated group, yet this seems fun to play.

    But my main issue is the build variety and power of guardian and dh in general. And that makes me think about spvp or roaming issues.

  • @Zephoid.4263 said:
    While i can agree with the 50%-25% crit change for rental, give guard SOMETHING back.

    Guard's shouts are straight garbage. they don't give many boons and the duration are god awful. Most haven't seen a change since release and they weren't even competitive back then.
    Spirit weapons are still bad. Mid cast time and delay for effect isn't a viable combination.
    Medis were go-to for a long time, but they have been nerfed a few times and have been power crept pretty hard.
    Consecrations are a joke. Not even remotely competitive in pvp, only wall is ever used in any game mode.

    You had very limited build options for any form of power guard and they received 3 separate nerfs (smite conditions, glacial heart, RI) without any meaningful buffs.

    Hammer guard saw repeated nerfs back to back on a build that wasn't competitive in any format. The cast time on every effect hammer has are incredibly long and do very middling damage/effects.
    GS guard was low-mid plat competitive when mirages were popular, but the RI crit nerf without any compensating buffs killed that. Previously gs guard lost to holos, sb, or revs, now they get dominated by them.
    DH hasn't been competitive since the initial round of heavy handed nerfs after HoT release.

    I'd love to see something done for power guards, but i really don't have confidence that Anet has a good grasp on what is wrong. I'm betting on some concentration cd buffs or something meaningless like that. Guard's problems have been apparent since release and haven't been solved, so why now?

    Shout is ok, more useful in pve with Pure of Voice trait. But as more and more classes get access to conditions cleansed, it is no longer preferred. Spirit weapons AOE targetting now make it better except shield is sometime bugged. Medis only useful in pvp, in pve is totally useless except pudging flame for condi damage. Consecrations some are useful such as Sanctuary very good in pvp bunker. Pudging flame is good for burning build. Hallowed Ground is kitten? never liiked it.

  • FtoPScrub.5476FtoPScrub.5476 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 28, 2019

    The latest stealth nerf to lesser smite condition from the June 25th patch only vindicates OP lmao

    just delete core guard and dh already. we know you want to

  • Adamixos.6785Adamixos.6785 Member ✭✭

    NGL, I have been waiting for that "Dragonhunter Rework" announcement since I got back into the game earlier this year. Somewhere deep down inside, I know that it will never happen, but I am a hopeless hopeful.

    One can dream, right?

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