Game balance how is it done?. — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Game balance how is it done?.

Abisha.9028Abisha.9028 Member ✭✭
edited June 18, 2019 in PVP

I not sure when i play this game in pvp i feel like this game balance is really beyond repair.
it's mostly a bad sign when someone without game experience feels this i am PVP rank 25 so i not that experienced but some of the class's really feel beyond fairness.
some of the class's that feels unfair
1. warriors
2. .Necro Reaper or pet master whatever they called
3. I seen some engineers with unlimited stunning this can't be right

now like i say i not a pro gamer and not have like 7 years GW2 gaming experience so it's likely the game is really balanced at pro level
but i don't think it's the right way to go with videogames it should be balanced on the average gamer they are your backbone community
their was a time Diablo 3 was really insane difficult it was balanced on the best of the best players and the game suffer greatly from this it's just a wrong way of balancing.

what i suggest,
The devs should let their family members play all the class's exist in the game and hear their opinion how they feel about certain class's
compare them with each member and you will see those 3 will spike out. why they are to overpowered.

Comments

  • Hashberry.4510Hashberry.4510 Member ✭✭✭

    I doubt this combat system can be balanced, there is a wide range of what may be done even between closely skilled players. I would not let it get to me.

  • Trise.2865Trise.2865 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 18, 2019

    How is game balance done? Data. Lots and lots of collected data from internal testing, live monitoring, and (weighted) feedback from the PvP Forums.

    If we want ANet to step up their game, then we must step up ours.

  • Hashberry.4510Hashberry.4510 Member ✭✭✭

    Lol the PVP forums. Lots of work to pull the gems out of that dross ;) .

  • Lighter.5631Lighter.5631 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 19, 2019

    have u played a staff evade thief?
    its being used to tank 3 people on point and not dieing on plat games

  • Solori.6025Solori.6025 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 19, 2019

    It's done poorly. If any thought is given for balance it comes from the temp interns. Who read complaints from the forums to even have some semblance of a clue. Even then they have a rep. For balancing the wrong things.
    If they had data, metrics, forethought, the desire to see the game succeed, and the ability to play the game we might have had better balance from the launch of HoT and PoF.

    Tingle my stingleberry

  • KrHome.1920KrHome.1920 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 19, 2019

    @Abisha.9028 said:
    some of the class's that feels unfair
    1. warriors
    2. .Necro Reaper or pet master whatever they called

    These are the 2 classes/specs with the most pronounced telegraphs and the easiest to avoid pressure in the game. If any class/spec leaves some gameplay healthy room for counterplay then it's these two.

    That you are struggeling with these says a lot.

    This posting says nothing about whether balancing in this game is bad or not. It just states that the OP has issues that are not balancing related.

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 19, 2019

    Game Balance: "How is it done?"
    Dumb answer: Sloppily.
    Smart answer: Mainly by tinkering with "numbers" and fixing tooltips in a game where "mechanisms" matter more than "numbers".

    Learn the mechanisms of the differents professions and you'll see your list of OP profession change drastically.

  • Dave.6819Dave.6819 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 19, 2019

    @Abisha.9028 said:
    I not sure when i play this game in pvp i feel like this game balance is really beyond repair.
    it's mostly a bad sign when someone without game experience feels this i am PVP rank 25 so i not that experienced but some of the class's really feel beyond fairness.
    some of the class's that feels unfair
    1. warriors
    2. .Necro Reaper or pet master whatever they called
    3. I seen some engineers with unlimited stunning this can't be right

    now like i say i not a pro gamer and not have like 7 years GW2 gaming experience so it's likely the game is really balanced at pro level
    but i don't think it's the right way to go with videogames it should be balanced on the average gamer they are your backbone community
    their was a time Diablo 3 was really insane difficult it was balanced on the best of the best players and the game suffer greatly from this it's just a wrong way of balancing.

    what i suggest,
    The devs should let their family members play all the class's exist in the game and hear their opinion how they feel about certain class's
    compare them with each member and you will see those 3 will spike out. why they are to overpowered.

    experience doesnt matter. 7k games. playing since beta (quitted tho. had enuff). i still would totally suck on useless classes/builds. it's all about a class of the month (flavor of the month). any1 with atleast mediocre knowledge can do really well on support FB/scourge/condi mirage/soulbeast/holo. no one even a pro can do well on something like thief. even sindrener just dies and dies on thief and he takes it as a "oh its normal" and carries on decapping again..(is that normal tho? for a pro to die and die?) so yea.. balance? nope not in this game. and your experience doesnt have anythin to do with that. sure.. 5k games player will be better then rank 25.. but to an extent. u can push only so far.

    #MakeTeefGreatAgain

  • DoomNexus.5324DoomNexus.5324 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 19, 2019

    @Abisha.9028 said:
    I not sure when i play this game in pvp i feel like this game balance is really beyond repair.
    it's mostly a bad sign when someone without game experience feels this

    Honestly I think if someone without game experience feels like this, this actually is a sign that this player doesn't have game experience.
    Like.. Do you kite properly, do you use terrain, do you exploit LoS-ing, do you know the enemy combos and animations, what builds do certain classes usually run or can you identify what they are actually running and act accordingly? Do you know what's going on on the entire map by looking at the minimap and group panel, do you decide properly whether you should join a fight or disengage/roam or maybe disengage a teamfight to +1 another? Do you wait for your team mates and stick together or are you mainly focusing your opponents only, finding yourself downed in an outnumbered fight while your team mates have already disengaged? Do you call targets and focus targets when others call them out? Do you use your own kit to its full potential like do you use trait and skill synergies, combo fields to buff/heal/dmg more and do you use your kit properly as well, or may it be that you sometimes waste dodges, cleanses, blocks, ...
    Etc, etc, etc. the list goes on and on and on, depending on how much you want to go into detail.

    There's a plethora of factors that determine how good you are and if you can outplay your opponent.
    Especially in sPvP conquest a huge factor is also how good of a team player you are. I just had a match yesterday where a guardian was constantly outnumbered somewhere on the map, kited and tanked for a while and died, then flamed the rest of us for not playing well. But in fact it was the guardian who crippled us by not sticking to the rest of the team, leaving us outnumbered in teamfights which enabled the enemy team to snowball and just pick him off while we were on respawn.

    Of course there are ridiculous combos and capabilities some classes have especially in a direct duel over other classes, I won't argue about bad balance at all. There is a lot to adjust. But in GW2 sPvP is also a huge amount of personal skill and game knowledge involved, even if some ppl don't want to believe that.

    edit:

    @Dave.6819 said:
    no one even a pro can do well on something like thief. even sindrener just dies and dies on thief and he takes it as a "oh its normal" and carries on decapping again..(is that normal tho? for a pro to die and die?)

    Yes this is indeed normal.. believe it or not but even sindrener is human.. Shocking right? D:
    Also it's not like he's just matched against some silver players either, so if you let good players play against each other it's normal for all of them to die at some point.

    On a side note: I am a thief main and after I've been ranked into gold 3 and then deranked to gold 2, I've solo'd my way back up to plat 2 in the last few days (was plat 2 last season already but due to IRL stuff I could only play on weekend evenings which dropped me to gold 2 unfortunately lol..) and I've just played against sindrener yesterday again. Let me tell you he is way harder to fight and has way better rotation and map/game knowledge than your average gold or even plat thief.
    Probably "experience" isn't the key factor here but knowledge and the ability to convert the knowledge mechanically definitely is.

  • Yannir.4132Yannir.4132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Abisha.9028 said:
    now like i say i not a pro gamer and not have like 7 years GW2 gaming experience so it's likely the game is really balanced at pro level

    No nice way to say it but I'm sorry if you are rank 25, you're not average in regards to this game yet. The threshold for ranked is 20 so you've barely even started yet.

    but i don't think it's the right way to go with videogames it should be balanced on the average gamer they are your backbone community

    Games should be balanced towards the high end, towards players who are better than average but not necessarily balanced towards the best of the best.
    In video games balancing towards the average players is the norm for PvE modes but not when it comes to PvP. PvP should reward skill, not participation.

  • Dave.6819Dave.6819 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 19, 2019

    @DoomNexus.5324 said:

    @Abisha.9028 said:
    I not sure when i play this game in pvp i feel like this game balance is really beyond repair.
    it's mostly a bad sign when someone without game experience feels this

    Honestly I think if someone without game experience feels like this, this actually is a sign that this player doesn't have game experience.
    Like.. Do you kite properly, do you use terrain, do you exploit LoS-ing, do you know the enemy combos and animations, what builds do certain classes usually run or can you identify what they are actually running and act accordingly? Do you know what's going on on the entire map by looking at the minimap and group panel, do you decide properly whether you should join a fight or disengage/roam or maybe disengage a teamfight to +1 another? Do you wait for your team mates and stick together or are you mainly focusing your opponents only, finding yourself downed in an outnumbered fight while your team mates have already disengaged? Do you call targets and focus targets when others call them out? Do you use your own kit to its full potential like do you use trait and skill synergies, combo fields to buff/heal/dmg more and do you use your kit properly as well, or may it be that you sometimes waste dodges, cleanses, blocks, ...
    Etc, etc, etc. the list goes on and on and on, depending on how much you want to go into detail.

    There's a plethora of factors that determine how good you are and if you can outplay your opponent.
    Especially in sPvP conquest a huge factor is also how good of a team player you are. I just had a match yesterday where a guardian was constantly outnumbered somewhere on the map, kited and tanked for a while and died, then flamed the rest of us for not playing well. But in fact it was the guardian who crippled us by not sticking to the rest of the team, leaving us outnumbered in teamfights which enabled the enemy team to snowball and just pick him off while we were on respawn.

    Of course there are ridiculous combos and capabilities some classes have especially in a direct duel over other classes, I won't argue about bad balance at all. There is a lot to adjust. But in GW2 sPvP is also a huge amount of personal skill and game knowledge involved, even if some ppl don't want to believe that.

    edit:

    @Dave.6819 said:
    no one even a pro can do well on something like thief. even sindrener just dies and dies on thief and he takes it as a "oh its normal" and carries on decapping again..(is that normal tho? for a pro to die and die?)

    Yes this is indeed normal.. believe it or not but even sindrener is human.. Shocking right? D:
    Also it's not like he's just matched against some silver players either, so if you let good players play against each other it's normal for all of them to die at some point.

    On a side note: I am a thief main and after I've been ranked into gold 3 and then deranked to gold 2, I've solo'd my way back up to plat 2 in the last few days (was plat 2 last season already but due to IRL stuff I could only play on weekend evenings which dropped me to gold 2 unfortunately lol..) and I've just played against sindrener yesterday again. Let me tell you he is way harder to fight and has way better rotation and map/game knowledge than your average gold or even plat thief.
    Probably "experience" isn't the key factor here but knowledge and the ability to convert the knowledge mechanically definitely is.

    my idea is... rank 30 player playing holo or scrapper can come up to him and destroy him. that's the idea i was trying to stress. bad player can get carried by a class. pro player can be handicapped by a choice of a weak class. imagine hmm. imagine a scrapper/holo or even a condi mirage at the same skill level as sindrener. no way sind can win that. so it's like a handicap basically. u can be a GOD but u'll be limited by your poor choice of class (or should i say a poor balance dev work not a class cuz we dont have bad classes right?). anyway.. it's all very clear nothin to really discuss here. i'm a thief main ( i was ). i was even legendary on thief. but still...it doesnt matter.. i think some classes require just way too much effort to be on par with other classes who can play with their eyes shut and yawning whole match. that's what we call unbalanced game.

    #MakeTeefGreatAgain

  • Abisha.9028Abisha.9028 Member ✭✭

    I read some comments like "kite" terrain, exploit LoS-ing ->like name suggest it's cheating then other it would not be called ->Exploit<-
    that's all good but you deal with human beings that know how to press a space bar so terrain and kite ain't validated option especially on warmaps with objectives like capturing which the player most stand on.

    also i read some people say they use data analytics if this is true then it really hurt the game because most class's that are weak are not being played giving it a wrong picture of what's going on.

    also i don't think it's normal that top players die easy just because they play a weak class, player skills should alway's win the match.
    they can easy fix this problem by adding the weaker class's by giving them more healthpoints in PvP this can be done without adjusting PvE environment.
    let say start small with giving thief like 5K more health pool then analyse and see if it's to much or to low. but i guess it would request vision from Arenanet that then no longer have for the game.

  • Stand The Wall.6987Stand The Wall.6987 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 19, 2019

    so if you balance for the top 10%, and the bottom 90% can't deal with a mechanic such as a one shot, do you think that 90% are going to stick around for long?

    you don't know till you know, ya know.

  • DoomNexus.5324DoomNexus.5324 Member ✭✭✭

    @Abisha.9028 said:
    I read some comments like "kite" terrain, exploit LoS-ing ->like name suggest it's cheating then other it would not be called ->Exploit<-
    that's all good but you deal with human beings that know how to press a space bar so terrain and kite ain't validated option especially on warmaps with objectives like capturing which the player most stand on.

    also i don't think it's normal that top players die easy just because they play a weak class, player skills should alway's win the match.
    they can easy fix this problem by adding the weaker class's by giving them more healthpoints in PvP this can be done without adjusting PvE environment.
    let say start small with giving thief like 5K more health pool then analyse and see if it's to much or to low. but i guess it would request vision from Arenanet that then no longer have for the game.

    LUL.. like big yikes.. really? because I used the word 'exploit' you make my entire point invalid? It is not cheating lel.. replace "exploit" with "make use of" and you're good to go. It's a completely legit and intended strategy. But.. it honestly just seems like you didn't even read my post after you've stumbled across the word 'exploit'.

    Honestly.. like really in all seriousness.. After this entire statement I can't take you serious at all anymore, this thread has just become another Q_Q thread for me at this point.
    My 2ct, I'm out. Bye.

  • otto.5684otto.5684 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:
    so if you balance for the top 10%, and the bottom 90% can't deal with a mechanic such as a one shot, do you think that 90% are going to stick around for long?

    Or you just do not have one shot mechanics in an MMO? It's not Mario...

    As for the actual balance design, it is hard to tell. It is surely top heavy, though I am sure accessibility is significantly important.

  • I like to think it's a Hunger Games style draw.

    Each class gets added to the draw multiple times depending on how many people complain about it on here, but never minding who did said complaining.

    nERf THieF

    Remove Ranked DuoQ pls&ty

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    I believe this to be the priority list of how this game is balanced competitively:

    1. Nerf Thief
    2. Nerf Mesmer but do it in a way that offers a build that is just as strong as the previous build that was complained about.
    3. Ignore nerf suggestions to Soulbeast. Keep nerfing Druid cause way too powerful.
    4. Ignore Firebrand/Scourge dominance in team comps. We shall view them as forever balanced staples.
    5. Nerf Thief some more
    6. Toss some buffs at Ele that are somehow nerfs in the end.
    7. Gradually power creep Herald/Holo/Spellbreaker in ninja fashion so that no on realizes it's happening.
    8. Nerf that kitten Thief some more cause funny.

    Be honest man, u clearly work for anet. No way ud be so spot on otherwise lol.

  • Menyus.4610Menyus.4610 Member ✭✭✭

    @Impact.2780 said:
    True story: GW2 was unbalanced for years since launch until 2015. They finally got it the most balanced it had ever been, with a focus on what each class should be specialising in and balancing them around that particular idea and role.

    Immediately after, they released HoT, because people wanted expansions, more classes, more traits, more weapons, more build diversity. We now have build diversity. Lots of it. RIP balance.

    IKR pre hot balance was awesome, the game was the best at that time

  • Rare, with too much salt.

  • Flumek.9043Flumek.9043 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 20, 2019

    @Impact.2780 said:
    True story: GW2 was unbalanced for years since launch until 2015. They finally got it the most balanced it had ever been, with a focus on what each class should be specialising in and balancing them around that particular idea and role.

    Immediately after, they released HoT, because people wanted expansions, more classes, more traits, more weapons, more build diversity. We now have build diversity. Lots of it. RIP balance.

    Exact point.

    You only forgot how they "balanced" by having clicking dev duel each other on keep with mystic builds. Cz what if a condi guard wants to try spirit weapons ow so kewl xD

    The games beauty is pure accident similiar to smash

  • Zawn.9647Zawn.9647 Member ✭✭✭

    I think they toss a coin to decide what they will buff or nerf. There can't be any other explanation...

  • Balancing isn’t done. The way they change classes is by not what needs to be done but what would be fun.

  • ZhouX.8742ZhouX.8742 Member ✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    Funny how the view on which class is OP and which is weak in PvP always seem to depend on which class you play and who killed you last

    Yes it's almost as if classes have counters in PvP

    Weird right??

    Sigh

  • Daishi.6027Daishi.6027 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Does Karl McLain still more or less decide it all? Did he stop around the release of PoF then come back after the "restructuring" and layoffs?

  • JTGuevara.9018JTGuevara.9018 Member ✭✭✭

    How do you balance? Never listen to the players, that's how. In my years of playing games, this has been pretty consistent. Whether it's the pros, or newbies, balancing for a specific set of players is a recipe for disaster. This especially goes for class balance. For example, you say warriors and necros "feel unfair"...what does that even mean? I think weaver and revenant feel unfair, but I don't let it get in the way of objective analysis of the situation.

    Since HoT, which introduced a slew of elite specs with more damage, sustain, evades and invulnerabilities than core specs, pvp has become a powercreeped spamfest. There's simply too much of everything, whether it's "one-shot" builds or eternal bunker builds, elite specs have RUINED pvp and made it more cancerous. That is my concern.

    My take is, devs need to balance for the interest of the GAME, NOT for the interest of the players. Take a look at this powercreeped era of pvp and take a hammer to it. Nerf the elite specs and cut the cancer by at least 80%.

  • zionophir.6845zionophir.6845 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 20, 2019

    they do it by keeping the red circles and 11112(goto1).

    and if a class kills EASILY those, they nerf that class.

    and we still see red circles and 11112(goto1).

    and with Warriors, which is almost never been touched, you'll see the Trinity of Necro/Ranger/Warrior

    and yeah, you will discover that they secretly LOVE the GW1 classic IWAY build.

    http://gw1101.gtm.guildwars.com/community/guildweek/gotw-2006-10-17-yourmathteacher.php

    they are waiting to see the Ported build to GW2, which is just Healing Druid Trappers, Meta-Scourges and Spellbreaker Face Tanks on Full Zerker Gear..

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Nerf the low hp/sustain classes or any builds that require thought, buff classes that have high hp/sustain. Lower the complexity of all builds that require any thought, promote classes and playstyles that carry players. That about sums up this games balance.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @JTGuevara.9018 said:
    How do you balance? Never listen to the players, that's how. In my years of playing games, this has been pretty consistent. Whether it's the pros, or newbies, balancing for a specific set of players is a recipe for disaster. This especially goes for class balance. For example, you say warriors and necros "feel unfair"...what does that even mean? I think weaver and revenant feel unfair, but I don't let it get in the way of objective analysis of the situation.

    Since HoT, which introduced a slew of elite specs with more damage, sustain, evades and invulnerabilities than core specs, pvp has become a powercreeped spamfest. There's simply too much of everything, whether it's "one-shot" builds or eternal bunker builds, elite specs have RUINED pvp and made it more cancerous. That is my concern.

    My take is, devs need to balance for the interest of the GAME, NOT for the interest of the players. Take a look at this powercreeped era of pvp and take a hammer to it. Nerf the elite specs and cut the cancer by at least 80%.

    You do realize, that your argument for changes starts with you advising Anet that they should not listen to you?

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Abisha.9028Abisha.9028 Member ✭✭

    @JTGuevara.9018 said:
    How do you balance? Never listen to the players, that's how. In my years of playing games, this has been pretty consistent. Whether it's the pros, or newbies, balancing for a specific set of players is a recipe for disaster. This especially goes for class balance. For example, you say warriors and necros "feel unfair"...what does that even mean? I think weaver and revenant feel unfair, but I don't let it get in the way of objective analysis of the situation.

    Since HoT, which introduced a slew of elite specs with more damage, sustain, evades and invulnerabilities than core specs, pvp has become a powercreeped spamfest. There's simply too much of everything, whether it's "one-shot" builds or eternal bunker builds, elite specs have RUINED pvp and made it more cancerous. That is my concern.

    My take is, devs need to balance for the interest of the GAME, NOT for the interest of the players. Take a look at this powercreeped era of pvp and take a hammer to it. Nerf the elite specs and cut the cancer by at least 80%.

    what i means with unfair, A Nerco is a "mage" class kind of why do already a class with really high health shield have so much heal to begin with why do the Elementalist not have bit more health We talking about factor 3 difference here my elementalist have health pool of 11K my necro have health pool of 30K + health shield of 22K=that's 5 times more not to mention they can switch weapons and become full blown warrior.

    as for the warrior they have to many gap closers ranged is meaningless in the game since they have they have most potential on the battlefield
    so how to fix, i dunno reduce their health at same level like a thief?.

    as for the revenant they are complex class's with not only weapon switch but also god switch and ability's i think that would make them the most difficult class to play.

  • Trevor Boyer.6524Trevor Boyer.6524 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Impact.2780 said:
    True story: GW2 was unbalanced for years since launch until 2015. They finally got it the most balanced it had ever been, with a focus on what each class should be specialising in and balancing them around that particular idea and role.

    Immediately after, they released HoT, because people wanted expansions, more classes, more traits, more weapons, more build diversity. We now have build diversity. Lots of it. RIP balance.

    The day was 6/23/2015, I remember it in great detail. The working balance of 3 years of core, suddenly experienced great upheaval when traits turned to specializations, condis like burn were allowed to stack, and then less than 4 months later a very unrefined HoT first patching was released on top of this.

    Hey, I'm not saying these changes weren't good in the long run, but boy did it a very very long time to flatten out.

  • Henry.5713Henry.5713 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Perceptions are almost always vastly different and very subjective. This game remains one of the best targets of the "Rock Paper Scissors balance" meme in the end. And these issues hardly began with the introduction of HoT. There have been so many supposedly imbalanced builds long before that and people will continue to complain no matter what even if the impossible happens and the game actually becomes 100% balanced.

    Progress isn't made by early risers. It's made by lazy men trying to find easier ways to do something. ~ Robert Heinlein

  • Aeolus.3615Aeolus.3615 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Gw2 netcode does not support security, all in the name of aoe spam, the amount of desync and wpe users with macros is actually hilarious.... looks like one of those private mmo servers....

  • Vague Memory.2817Vague Memory.2817 Member ✭✭✭

    The OP is right. The game was balanced on the top players during the esport era. Now they just look on metabattle and nerf aspects of those builds. The majority of players do not play it professionally and the game should be balanced around them and not the minority. I made a post about this ages ago. A top player can destroy your elite spec with a core spec because they can play pretty much all classes well and know their weakness and strengths.

  • BlackBeard.2873BlackBeard.2873 Member ✭✭✭

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    I believe this to be the priority list of how this game is balanced competitively:

    1. Nerf Thief
    2. Nerf Mesmer but do it in a way that offers a build that is just as strong as the previous build that was complained about.
    3. Ignore nerf suggestions to Soulbeast. Keep nerfing Druid cause way too powerful.
    4. Ignore Firebrand/Scourge dominance in team comps. We shall view them as forever balanced staples.
    5. Nerf Thief some more
      6. Toss some buffs at Ele that are somehow nerfs in the end.
    6. Gradually power creep Herald/Holo/Spellbreaker in ninja fashion so that no on realizes it's happening.
    7. Nerf that kitten Thief some more cause funny.

    Surprisingly accurate!

  • praqtos.9035praqtos.9035 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 26, 2019

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    2. Nerf Mesmer but do it in a way that offers a build that is just as strong as the previous build that was complained about

    Surprisingly inaccurate

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