Training Mode in Raids? — Guild Wars 2 Forums
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Training Mode in Raids?

Training raid mode , where you can kill the boss multiple times, can resurrect the players mid fight, and not get one shotted from every mechanic. Of course this is for training purpose only so rewards is out of the question. That would be perfect for every beginner stepping for the first time in the raids, having a chance to experience what is a raid, teaming up with 10 players, trying the mechanics, their dps, rotations, etc. Also will be great for testing new players before adding them to a static group.
This would be cool to be accessible even after the boss kill on empty wing.

<1

Comments

  • Oli.4597Oli.4597 Member ✭✭

    I can tell you already that this thread will be moved to the Raid/Fractal subforum. Idk why you havent posted it there tbh xD
    Now to your topic:
    Many experienced Raiders already help out in "normal" Mode and it mostly works out fine. Especially the first 4 Wings aren´t really hard.
    As for now - I dont really see any need for this mode.
    Just take VG as an example ... just run green for beginners and your fine ... nothing can oneshot you there. You still will learn, you dont need meta builds you have "endless" time for the kill.

  • lare.5129lare.5129 Member ✭✭✭✭

    training mode - this is training golem on aerodrom from left side.
    Don't like it - dont' go raids.

  • mindcircus.1506mindcircus.1506 Member ✭✭✭✭

    If there are no rewards people will not do it.

  • Digit.1823Digit.1823 Member ✭✭✭

    Sure there will be rewards!

    Just no LI/LD/Raid specific achievements/Wing specific skins. You want those, go do raids as they are currently intended (or "normal" mode raids).

    For the rest you can have it all for all i care, get the gold, the drops. Heck throw a few regular ascended drops in there every once in a while. Should be fine.

  • maxwelgm.4315maxwelgm.4315 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 24, 2019

    @Digit.1823 said:
    Sure there will be rewards!

    Just no LI/LD/Raid specific achievements/Wing specific skins. You want those, go do raids as they are currently intended (or "normal" mode raids).

    For the rest you can have it all for all i care, get the gold, the drops. Heck throw a few regular ascended drops in there every once in a while. Should be fine.

    No one will do it if there are no specific rewards, at least not enough people to warrant the developing effort. Fractal t1, t2 and t3 are populated because they have the potential to give same drops as t4 and CMs, but even then, guess which tier gets the most LFG posts? People will always try to maximize their profit and play the content at what level gives the most drops, even if they supposedly aren't ready for it (again, fractals are a great example of this - t4 can be a pain to pug). This is just how people work, and Anet is better off working on "normal mode" itself. But then again, this topic has been done in this forum, over and over and over again.

    MINOR EDIT: there are a dozen unique skins, auras and a couple currencies only available to fractal CMs, but do not let this detract you from the point, that is, a player can still get all the major drops from fractals such as golden weapons by playing up to t3, it's just a massive effort that even justifies an inexperienced player going straight to t4's so that said player can have an easier time with rewards and a harder time with the encounters.

  • phs.6089phs.6089 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @maxwelgm.4315 said:

    @Digit.1823 said:
    Sure there will be rewards!

    Just no LI/LD/Raid specific achievements/Wing specific skins. You want those, go do raids as they are currently intended (or "normal" mode raids).

    For the rest you can have it all for all i care, get the gold, the drops. Heck throw a few regular ascended drops in there every once in a while. Should be fine.

    No one will do it if there are no specific rewards, at least not enough people to warrant the developing effort. Fractal t1, t2 and t3 are populated because they have the potential to give same drops as t4 and CMs, but even then, guess which tier gets the most LFG posts? People will always try to maximize their profit and play the content at what level gives the most drops, even if they supposedly aren't ready for it (again, fractals are a great example of this - t4 can be a pain to pug). This is just how people work, and Anet is better off working on "normal mode" itself. But then again, this topic has been done in this forum, over and over and over again.

    MINOR EDIT: there are a dozen unique skins, auras and a couple currencies only available to fractal CMs, but do not let this detract you from the point, that is, a player can still get all the major drops from fractals such as golden weapons by playing up to t3, it's just a massive effort that even justifies an inexperienced player going straight to t4's so that said player can have an easier time with rewards and a harder time with the encounters.

    t4s have more populated LFG, cus people learned fractals trough tiers and now doing t4s+CMs. Unlike raid's LFG that only has raid seller ads.

    "There is always a lighthouse, there's always a man, there's always a city."

  • Shikaru.7618Shikaru.7618 Member ✭✭✭

    @phs.6089 said:

    @maxwelgm.4315 said:

    @Digit.1823 said:
    Sure there will be rewards!

    Just no LI/LD/Raid specific achievements/Wing specific skins. You want those, go do raids as they are currently intended (or "normal" mode raids).

    For the rest you can have it all for all i care, get the gold, the drops. Heck throw a few regular ascended drops in there every once in a while. Should be fine.

    No one will do it if there are no specific rewards, at least not enough people to warrant the developing effort. Fractal t1, t2 and t3 are populated because they have the potential to give same drops as t4 and CMs, but even then, guess which tier gets the most LFG posts? People will always try to maximize their profit and play the content at what level gives the most drops, even if they supposedly aren't ready for it (again, fractals are a great example of this - t4 can be a pain to pug). This is just how people work, and Anet is better off working on "normal mode" itself. But then again, this topic has been done in this forum, over and over and over again.

    MINOR EDIT: there are a dozen unique skins, auras and a couple currencies only available to fractal CMs, but do not let this detract you from the point, that is, a player can still get all the major drops from fractals such as golden weapons by playing up to t3, it's just a massive effort that even justifies an inexperienced player going straight to t4's so that said player can have an easier time with rewards and a harder time with the encounters.

    t4s have more populated LFG, cus people learned fractals trough tiers and now doing t4s+CMs. Unlike raid's LFG that only has raid seller ads.

    T1 through 4 teach you like 10% of what you actually need to know in fractal CMs. It's why you dont see any "CMs and T4s must have completed so and nightmare at scale 99 and 100" groups. The tiering system as currently implemented does very little to prepare people because it's missing so many of the foundational lessons you need to be successful in raids and cms.

  • mindcircus.1506mindcircus.1506 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Digit.1823 said:
    Sure there will be rewards!

    Just no LI/LD/Raid specific achievements/Wing specific skins. You want those, go do raids as they are currently intended (or "normal" mode raids).

    For the rest you can have it all for all i care, get the gold, the drops. Heck throw a few regular ascended drops in there every once in a while. Should be fine.

    So... remove the skill requirement and leave the gold rewards and just "throw a few regular ascended drops in there every once in a while".
    I'm sorry just what else do you think drops in raids?

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @maxwelgm.4315 said:
    No one will do it if there are no specific rewards, at least not enough people to warrant the developing effort. Fractal t1, t2 and t3 are populated because they have the potential to give same drops as t4 and CMs, but even then, guess which tier gets the most LFG posts?

    As discussed on other threads, this supposed training/easy mode will be of the same difficulty as T1 fractals, not T2 or T3. T1 fractals doesn't have access to all the fractal rewards. No golden relics, no infused rings, no accessories, no ascended materials. Although ascended weapons/armor are listed as T1 rewards, according to the drop research on the wiki, none dropped after 800 listed chests, meaning their drop chance is very very low.

  • sigur.9453sigur.9453 Member ✭✭✭

    @phs.6089 said:

    @maxwelgm.4315 said:

    @Digit.1823 said:
    Sure there will be rewards!

    Just no LI/LD/Raid specific achievements/Wing specific skins. You want those, go do raids as they are currently intended (or "normal" mode raids).

    For the rest you can have it all for all i care, get the gold, the drops. Heck throw a few regular ascended drops in there every once in a while. Should be fine.

    No one will do it if there are no specific rewards, at least not enough people to warrant the developing effort. Fractal t1, t2 and t3 are populated because they have the potential to give same drops as t4 and CMs, but even then, guess which tier gets the most LFG posts? People will always try to maximize their profit and play the content at what level gives the most drops, even if they supposedly aren't ready for it (again, fractals are a great example of this - t4 can be a pain to pug). This is just how people work, and Anet is better off working on "normal mode" itself. But then again, this topic has been done in this forum, over and over and over again.

    MINOR EDIT: there are a dozen unique skins, auras and a couple currencies only available to fractal CMs, but do not let this detract you from the point, that is, a player can still get all the major drops from fractals such as golden weapons by playing up to t3, it's just a massive effort that even justifies an inexperienced player going straight to t4's so that said player can have an easier time with rewards and a harder time with the encounters.

    t4s have more populated LFG, cus people learned fractals trough tiers and now doing t4s+CMs. Unlike raid's LFG that only has raid seller ads.

    you ignore the fact that fractals are daylie content while raids are weekly. OR regarding CM´s, a once and done thing. Imagine that 2 factors for fractals and the lfg population. Would likely look like raids. Monday its bursting and each day you will see less and less.
    i also doubt raid LFG ONLY has raid seller ads.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @phs.6089 said:
    t4s have more populated LFG, cus people learned fractals trough tiers and now doing t4s+CMs. Unlike raid's LFG that only has raid seller ads.

    As if running T1 fractals teaches you anything of value for T4... Most T1 fractals can be beaten solo or with a friend without much difficulty.
    Maybe there aren't enough LFG entries for Raids because players figured out the best way to run Raids is with static groups.

  • Miellyn.6847Miellyn.6847 Member ✭✭✭

    @phs.6089 said:

    @maxwelgm.4315 said:

    @Digit.1823 said:
    Sure there will be rewards!

    Just no LI/LD/Raid specific achievements/Wing specific skins. You want those, go do raids as they are currently intended (or "normal" mode raids).

    For the rest you can have it all for all i care, get the gold, the drops. Heck throw a few regular ascended drops in there every once in a while. Should be fine.

    No one will do it if there are no specific rewards, at least not enough people to warrant the developing effort. Fractal t1, t2 and t3 are populated because they have the potential to give same drops as t4 and CMs, but even then, guess which tier gets the most LFG posts? People will always try to maximize their profit and play the content at what level gives the most drops, even if they supposedly aren't ready for it (again, fractals are a great example of this - t4 can be a pain to pug). This is just how people work, and Anet is better off working on "normal mode" itself. But then again, this topic has been done in this forum, over and over and over again.

    MINOR EDIT: there are a dozen unique skins, auras and a couple currencies only available to fractal CMs, but do not let this detract you from the point, that is, a player can still get all the major drops from fractals such as golden weapons by playing up to t3, it's just a massive effort that even justifies an inexperienced player going straight to t4's so that said player can have an easier time with rewards and a harder time with the encounters.

    t4s have more populated LFG, cus people learned fractals trough tiers and now doing t4s+CMs. Unlike raid's LFG that only has raid seller ads.

    The quality of PUGs really diminished since Wing 5 hit and many people just run with statics or friends now. If we don't have enough guild members online for a raid evening we always check all friendlists from everyone in the squad before we even consider using the LFG.

  • phs.6089phs.6089 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 25, 2019

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @phs.6089 said:
    t4s have more populated LFG, cus people learned fractals trough tiers and now doing t4s+CMs. Unlike raid's LFG that only has raid seller ads.

    As if running T1 fractals teaches you anything of value for T4... Most T1 fractals can be beaten solo or with a friend without much difficulty.
    Maybe there aren't enough LFG entries for Raids because players figured out the best way to run Raids is with static groups.

    Tell that to new players that struggle in t2, t3.
    Whoever wants a t1 difficulty training raid, just kidding themselves

    "There is always a lighthouse, there's always a man, there's always a city."

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 25, 2019

    @phs.6089 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @phs.6089 said:
    t4s have more populated LFG, cus people learned fractals trough tiers and now doing t4s+CMs. Unlike raid's LFG that only has raid seller ads.

    As if running T1 fractals teaches you anything of value for T4... Most T1 fractals can be beaten solo or with a friend without much difficulty.
    Maybe there aren't enough LFG entries for Raids because players figured out the best way to run Raids is with static groups.

    Tell that to new players that struggle in t2, t3.

    T2 is a leap over T1, remember that in T1 a lot of the important mechanics are absent, for example in Uncategorized Harpies do not knock you over the platforms, while in Old Tom's room you don't have to use the crystals and the air vent. Which is another reason why T1 isn't very useful training. T1 teaches you to stand still, press 1 and win. T2 requires a little bit more thought, actual fights, I guess it's too much for those new players that struggle there. Higher tiers also add instabilities that make things even more complicated and let's not forget agony ticking.

    Although if a player struggles in T2 it's most probably because their build choice is absolutely terrible. T3 is a different animal, the problem there is that lots of players running T3s think they are masters of the game. Ironically T4 is more forgiving and new user friendly than T3, I'd even suggest new players to skip T3 entirely, unless they join a nice static guild team to go through all tiers.

    @phs.6089 said:
    Whoever wants a t1 difficulty training raid, just kidding themselves

    There are loads upon loads of "training/easy mode" proponents that ask for exactly that in this thread:
    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/18677/do-raids-need-easy-normal-hard-difficulty-mode-merged/p1

  • phs.6089phs.6089 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 25, 2019

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @phs.6089 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @phs.6089 said:
    t4s have more populated LFG, cus people learned fractals trough tiers and now doing t4s+CMs. Unlike raid's LFG that only has raid seller ads.

    As if running T1 fractals teaches you anything of value for T4... Most T1 fractals can be beaten solo or with a friend without much difficulty.
    Maybe there aren't enough LFG entries for Raids because players figured out the best way to run Raids is with static groups.

    Tell that to new players that struggle in t2, t3.

    T2 is a leap over T1, remember that in T1 a lot of the important mechanics are absent, for example in Uncategorized Harpies do not knock you over the platforms, while in Old Tom's room you don't have to use the crystals and the air vent. Which is another reason why T1 isn't very useful training. T1 teaches you to stand still, press 1 and win. T2 requires a little bit more thought, actual fights, I guess it's too much for those new players that struggle there. Higher tiers also add instabilities that make things even more complicated and let's not forget agony ticking.

    Although if a player struggles in T2 it's most probably because their build choice is absolutely terrible. T3 is a different animal, the problem there is that lots of players running T3s think they are masters of the game. Ironically T4 is more forgiving and new user friendly than T3, I'd even suggest new players to skip T3 entirely, unless they join a nice static guild team to go through all tiers.

    T4s are more forgiving BECAUSE players LEARNED mech, rotation, instance in t2/t3s .
    If they didn't learn they struggle and get kicked.

    "There is always a lighthouse, there's always a man, there's always a city."

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 25, 2019

    @phs.6089 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @phs.6089 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @phs.6089 said:
    t4s have more populated LFG, cus people learned fractals trough tiers and now doing t4s+CMs. Unlike raid's LFG that only has raid seller ads.

    As if running T1 fractals teaches you anything of value for T4... Most T1 fractals can be beaten solo or with a friend without much difficulty.
    Maybe there aren't enough LFG entries for Raids because players figured out the best way to run Raids is with static groups.

    Tell that to new players that struggle in t2, t3.

    T2 is a leap over T1, remember that in T1 a lot of the important mechanics are absent, for example in Uncategorized Harpies do not knock you over the platforms, while in Old Tom's room you don't have to use the crystals and the air vent. Which is another reason why T1 isn't very useful training. T1 teaches you to stand still, press 1 and win. T2 requires a little bit more thought, actual fights, I guess it's too much for those new players that struggle there. Higher tiers also add instabilities that make things even more complicated and let's not forget agony ticking.

    Although if a player struggles in T2 it's most probably because their build choice is absolutely terrible. T3 is a different animal, the problem there is that lots of players running T3s think they are masters of the game. Ironically T4 is more forgiving and new user friendly than T3, I'd even suggest new players to skip T3 entirely, unless they join a nice static guild team to go through all tiers.

    T4s are more forgiving BECAUSE players LEARNED mech, rotation, instance in t2/t3s .
    If they didn't learn they struggle and get kicked.

    T4s are more forgiving because players already know their rotations and builds when they go there. Something they learned from playing this game anywhere and not necessarily in lower tier Fractals. Granted T2s have a value because the fight mechanics are intact (unlike T1), but those mechanics aren't really hard to understand anyway, you need one run to figure out the harpies knock you over. While other mechanics can be avoided entirely by new players, as the more experienced ones will deal with them. Or you can always read a guide about how to deal with them, or you'll find many T4 groups explaining things, especially if the new players says they are a new player.

    Is there value for a "T2 equivalent Raid mode" as training? Maybe, but not enough to warrant a new "mode" for it, especially since there are training Raids available that teach you way more than a "training mode" ever would. T2s aren't run to teach players the higher tiers, there is the fractal daily, fractal recommended, precursor achievements, ad infinitum achievements that you can run on T2, without these options, I doubt T2 would be run at all.

  • Talindra.4958Talindra.4958 Member ✭✭✭✭

    training mode in raids = W7 :P

    Death is Energy [DIE] in EU
    Envoy's Herald, EAoA, CoZ, VitV, DD, SS, The Eternal, LNHB, Champion Magus, Champion Phantom, Wondrous Achiever etc.

  • phs.6089phs.6089 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 25, 2019

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @phs.6089 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @phs.6089 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @phs.6089 said:
    t4s have more populated LFG, cus people learned fractals trough tiers and now doing t4s+CMs. Unlike raid's LFG that only has raid seller ads.

    As if running T1 fractals teaches you anything of value for T4... Most T1 fractals can be beaten solo or with a friend without much difficulty.
    Maybe there aren't enough LFG entries for Raids because players figured out the best way to run Raids is with static groups.

    Tell that to new players that struggle in t2, t3.

    T2 is a leap over T1, remember that in T1 a lot of the important mechanics are absent, for example in Uncategorized Harpies do not knock you over the platforms, while in Old Tom's room you don't have to use the crystals and the air vent. Which is another reason why T1 isn't very useful training. T1 teaches you to stand still, press 1 and win. T2 requires a little bit more thought, actual fights, I guess it's too much for those new players that struggle there. Higher tiers also add instabilities that make things even more complicated and let's not forget agony ticking.

    Although if a player struggles in T2 it's most probably because their build choice is absolutely terrible. T3 is a different animal, the problem there is that lots of players running T3s think they are masters of the game. Ironically T4 is more forgiving and new user friendly than T3, I'd even suggest new players to skip T3 entirely, unless they join a nice static guild team to go through all tiers.

    T4s are more forgiving BECAUSE players LEARNED mech, rotation, instance in t2/t3s .
    If they didn't learn they struggle and get kicked.

    T4s are more forgiving because players already know their rotations and builds when they go there. Something they learned from playing this game anywhere and not necessarily in lower tier Fractals. Granted T2s have a value because the fight mechanics are intact (unlike T1), but those mechanics aren't really hard to understand anyway, you need one run to figure out the harpies knock you over. While other mechanics can be avoided entirely by new players, as the more experienced ones will deal with them. Or you can always read a guide about how to deal with them, or you'll find many T4 groups explaining things, especially if the new players says they are a new player.

    Is there value for a "T2 equivalent Raid mode" as training? Maybe, but not enough to warrant a new "mode" for it, especially since there are training Raids available that teach you way more than a "training mode" ever would. T2s aren't run to teach players the higher tiers, there is the fractal daily, fractal recommended, precursor achievements, ad infinitum achievements that you can run on T2, without these options, I doubt T2 would be run at all.

    There isn't anywhere in this game that makes you think and learn you pve build and rotation, besides fractals, none whatsoever, you know that.
    Its whatever, I'm wasting my time here, while I can go play a game that respects my time. Where I can go learn instaces on easy mod on my own time, not relay on some training groups that would be organized by someone at their prefer time. 2 mounts of subs to that wonderful game cost like a skyscale skin, guess which I chose to pay for.

    "There is always a lighthouse, there's always a man, there's always a city."

  • phs.6089phs.6089 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 25, 2019

    @Linken.6345 said:

    @phs.6089 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @phs.6089 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @phs.6089 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @phs.6089 said:
    t4s have more populated LFG, cus people learned fractals trough tiers and now doing t4s+CMs. Unlike raid's LFG that only has raid seller ads.

    As if running T1 fractals teaches you anything of value for T4... Most T1 fractals can be beaten solo or with a friend without much difficulty.
    Maybe there aren't enough LFG entries for Raids because players figured out the best way to run Raids is with static groups.

    Tell that to new players that struggle in t2, t3.

    T2 is a leap over T1, remember that in T1 a lot of the important mechanics are absent, for example in Uncategorized Harpies do not knock you over the platforms, while in Old Tom's room you don't have to use the crystals and the air vent. Which is another reason why T1 isn't very useful training. T1 teaches you to stand still, press 1 and win. T2 requires a little bit more thought, actual fights, I guess it's too much for those new players that struggle there. Higher tiers also add instabilities that make things even more complicated and let's not forget agony ticking.

    Although if a player struggles in T2 it's most probably because their build choice is absolutely terrible. T3 is a different animal, the problem there is that lots of players running T3s think they are masters of the game. Ironically T4 is more forgiving and new user friendly than T3, I'd even suggest new players to skip T3 entirely, unless they join a nice static guild team to go through all tiers.

    T4s are more forgiving BECAUSE players LEARNED mech, rotation, instance in t2/t3s .
    If they didn't learn they struggle and get kicked.

    T4s are more forgiving because players already know their rotations and builds when they go there. Something they learned from playing this game anywhere and not necessarily in lower tier Fractals. Granted T2s have a value because the fight mechanics are intact (unlike T1), but those mechanics aren't really hard to understand anyway, you need one run to figure out the harpies knock you over. While other mechanics can be avoided entirely by new players, as the more experienced ones will deal with them. Or you can always read a guide about how to deal with them, or you'll find many T4 groups explaining things, especially if the new players says they are a new player.

    Is there value for a "T2 equivalent Raid mode" as training? Maybe, but not enough to warrant a new "mode" for it, especially since there are training Raids available that teach you way more than a "training mode" ever would. T2s aren't run to teach players the higher tiers, there is the fractal daily, fractal recommended, precursor achievements, ad infinitum achievements that you can run on T2, without these options, I doubt T2 would be run at all.

    There isn't anywhere in this game that makes you think and learn you pve build and rotation, besides fractals, none whatsoever, you know that.
    Its whatever, I'm wasting my time here, while I can go play a game that respects my time. Where I can go learn instaces on easy mod on my own time, not relay on some training groups that would be organized by someone at their prefer time. 2 mounts of subs to that wonderful game cost like a skyscale skin, guess which I chose to pay for.

    Can I have your stuff?
    Why dont you oraganize your own training groups at your preferd time tho?

    WTH, no! you can't have my shines. I'll still come back for Living World.
    You know I did. I get people that hope to be carried or I got people that need to rush trough, so I got carried. I couldn't find that golden mid like in other game where people have mastered easy mode and feel advanced to go for hard. It absolutely absent in GW2. reason? No easy mod for raids. Something all of the game have. Even the cheapest P2W Chinese mobile game.

    "There is always a lighthouse, there's always a man, there's always a city."

  • Yasi.9065Yasi.9065 Member ✭✭✭

    There is an easy mode for raids already. Its called 100% boon uptime. Easily achieved with the proper support comp. Herald over druid, renegade for alacrity, 1 chrono, 1 firebrand/chrono and you wont even need a good healscourge to carry you through 90% of all raidboss encounters.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @phs.6089 said:
    There isn't anywhere in this game that makes you think and learn you pve build and rotation, besides fractals, none whatsoever, you know that.

    T3/T4/CM fractals maybe. You will learn more about pve builds and rotations fighting Balthazar than T1 fractals. All low tier Fractals will teach you is that mobs and bosses in this game are damage sponges and you might fall asleep fighting them. If you manage to stay awake fighting them, they are of a lower difficulty than the story.

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I don’t feel a training mode would be effective as toning down the mechanics would cause players to ignore or not even notice them. This is also worsened with players’ tendency to put the least amount of effort into what they’re doing.

  • Digit.1823Digit.1823 Member ✭✭✭

    @maxwelgm.4315 said:

    @Digit.1823 said:
    Sure there will be rewards!

    Just no LI/LD/Raid specific achievements/Wing specific skins. You want those, go do raids as they are currently intended (or "normal" mode raids).

    For the rest you can have it all for all i care, get the gold, the drops. Heck throw a few regular ascended drops in there every once in a while. Should be fine.

    No one will do it if there are no specific rewards, at least not enough people to warrant the developing effort. Fractal t1, t2 and t3 are populated because they have the potential to give same drops as t4 and CMs, but even then, guess which tier gets the most LFG posts? People will always try to maximize their profit and play the content at what level gives the most drops, even if they supposedly aren't ready for it (again, fractals are a great example of this - t4 can be a pain to pug). This is just how people work, and Anet is better off working on "normal mode" itself. But then again, this topic has been done in this forum, over and over and over again.

    MINOR EDIT: there are a dozen unique skins, auras and a couple currencies only available to fractal CMs, but do not let this detract you from the point, that is, a player can still get all the major drops from fractals such as golden weapons by playing up to t3, it's just a massive effort that even justifies an inexperienced player going straight to t4's so that said player can have an easier time with rewards and a harder time with the encounters.

    Yeah but here's the thing Maxwel: Less effort = less rewards.

    I mean the only specific rewards i can think of that you might be referring to is everything related to legendary armor. The skins specific to the raids (because let's face it, we're playing fashion wars 2 not guild wars 2 :# ) Mini's and infusions. But then comes the question Why should people get those for less effort? A question i have yet to see being actually tackled with decent arguments without someone just yelling "hUrR duRR diSgUStiNg eLiTistS".

    I'm cool with the whole "ez mode shtick" because i do believe you will get more people into raids that way (even though we both know that there are a myriad of factors why Anet is not committing to this).

    Also look i know why you're trying to make the point with fractal reward structure and it is a good argument, it truly is. But Raids =/= Fractals. And because of that the argument from the fractals point of view just doesn't stick with me. Even if only for the fact that Raids are currently the method of obtaining legendary PvE armor, an option that fractals sorely lacks. Surely you've read the forum posts maxwell where people basically only desire an easier mode for raids simply to get legendary armor with less effort, something they unfortunately only admitted after probing a bit though. (And i've been part of that discussion, not gonna dig up the whole tale here).

    Also, let's just theorize a bit here. Let's say Easy Mode Raids ever sees the light of day. Then that means Raids has 2 whole difficulty options where Fractals still has 4 levels of difficulty. 4 levels is easier to spread out and balance rewards then just 2, that's just basic math. So how would you then propose you spread the rewards over just 2 difficulty levels? I mean you know how i feel about it, i already threw in my 2 cents. :p

    @mindcircus.1506 said:

    @Digit.1823 said:
    Sure there will be rewards!

    Just no LI/LD/Raid specific achievements/Wing specific skins. You want those, go do raids as they are currently intended (or "normal" mode raids).

    For the rest you can have it all for all i care, get the gold, the drops. Heck throw a few regular ascended drops in there every once in a while. Should be fine.

    So... remove the skill requirement and leave the gold rewards and just "throw a few regular ascended drops in there every once in a while".
    I'm sorry just what else do you think drops in raids?

    Hey get that pointy finger away from me with the whole "remove the skill requirement" bs. Take that up with the OP.

    Otherwise my reply to your question about drops: Ok.

  • phs.6089phs.6089 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 26, 2019

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @phs.6089 said:
    There isn't anywhere in this game that makes you think and learn you pve build and rotation, besides fractals, none whatsoever, you know that.

    T3/T4/CM fractals maybe. You will learn more about pve builds and rotations fighting Balthazar than T1 fractals. All low tier Fractals will teach you is that mobs and bosses in this game are damage sponges and you might fall asleep fighting them. If you manage to stay awake fighting them, they are of a lower difficulty than the story.

    I did Balthazar on my ow, flamethrower engineer (in wanderer gear, tekkits build) once, when I was collection back items. No rotation, juts step away from telegraphs.
    This exactly what people are asking if we think that current raids are t4s, give them t3s to go there and train.

    "There is always a lighthouse, there's always a man, there's always a city."

  • MoVitae.2417MoVitae.2417 Member ✭✭

    I would definitely like to have a way to train without having to rely on the availability and goodwill of more experienced players. How about having options in the Special Forces Training Area to add boss mechanics to the Kitty Golem? This would bridge the gap for me between studying the mechanics and actually being able to navigate them in an actual raid without holding the other players back.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @phs.6089 said:
    I did Balthazar on my ow, flamethrower engineer (in wanderer gear, tekkits build) once, when I was collection back items.

    I did Uncategorized, Ascalon and Snowblind Fractals on a bear bow ranger just for kicks and giggles. The hardest part was staying awake because the last boss fights lasted an eternity. If I recall Snowblind lasted an hour and a half. I nearly quit mid-way through because my hand was getting tired.

  • Yasi.9065Yasi.9065 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 27, 2019

    @MoVitae.2417 said:
    I would definitely like to have a way to train without having to rely on the availability and goodwill of more experienced players. How about having options in the Special Forces Training Area to add boss mechanics to the Kitty Golem? This would bridge the gap for me between studying the mechanics and actually being able to navigate them in an actual raid without holding the other players back.

    How do you think we - the more experienced players - learned the fights? Its called "progression". Go get 9 other newbies ig or the forums, decide on roles, get your builds ready - Id suggest going for 2-3 healer comp first (healqb, healrenegade, healherald/druid, chrono) - and then take it one boss at a time.

    Why are gw2 players so passive about everything? Go out and organize yourself, stop waiting for others to organize things for you - and that includes expecting anet to solve everything for you.

  • MoVitae.2417MoVitae.2417 Member ✭✭

    @Yasi.9065 said:
    Why are gw2 players so passive about everything? Go out and organize yourself, stop waiting for others to organize things for you - and that includes expecting anet to solve everything for you.

    Why do you assume all these things about me or other players? That's not helpful.

  • Yasi.9065Yasi.9065 Member ✭✭✭

    @MoVitae.2417 said:

    @Yasi.9065 said:
    Why are gw2 players so passive about everything? Go out and organize yourself, stop waiting for others to organize things for you - and that includes expecting anet to solve everything for you.

    Why do you assume all these things about me or other players? That's not helpful.

    @MoVitae.2417 said:
    I would definitely like to have a way to train without having to rely on the availability and goodwill of more experienced players. How about having options in the Special Forces Training Area to add boss mechanics to the Kitty Golem? This would bridge the gap for me between studying the mechanics and actually being able to navigate them in an actual raid without holding the other players back.

    Marked it for you.

    Also, theres things you can train already at the golem. Perfecting your dps / boon / heal opening rotations for example. A lot of mistakes I notice in raids happen because players are way too focused on their rotations still and/or dont know how to get back into their rotations when interrupted by a mechanic.
    Unbelievably, I know, but training your rotations - on whichever role btw - at the golem for hours will help you learn boss mechanics faster, because your brain can focus on the mechanics instead of having to use 90% of its power on trying to maintain dps/heals/boons.
    And yes, to get good at raids, you have to spend hours at the golem practising rotations. Not just the whole rotation, also your opening rotation and a burst rotation
    Every single one of my trainees that went on the golem for a few days before going into raids, had a way easier time handling any mechanic the raidbosses threw at them.

    Even to stay good, good raiders still go to the training golem regularly. I for example spend on avg. 4 hours per week on going over my already learned rotations. Should be more actually, but its summer.

    So, before asking for valuable devtime, time really better spend on developing new raids, maybe at least use the already given features of the game? And make your own progression static?

  • MoVitae.2417MoVitae.2417 Member ✭✭

    @Yasi.9065 said:
    Also, theres things you can train already at the golem. Perfecting your dps / boon / heal opening rotations for example. A lot of mistakes I notice in raids happen because players are way too focused on their rotations still and/or dont know how to get back into their rotations when interrupted by a mechanic.
    Unbelievably, I know, but training your rotations - on whichever role btw - at the golem for hours will help you learn boss mechanics faster, because your brain can focus on the mechanics instead of having to use 90% of its power on trying to maintain dps/heals/boons.
    And yes, to get good at raids, you have to spend hours at the golem practising rotations. Not just the whole rotation, also your opening rotation and a burst rotation
    Every single one of my trainees that went on the golem for a few days before going into raids, had a way easier time handling any mechanic the raidbosses threw at them.

    Now that's more helpful. Thanks for the advice. I still think that training with mechanics at the golem would bridge the gap for many potential raiders but I understand your point of view.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @MoVitae.2417 said:
    Now that's more helpful. Thanks for the advice. I still think that training with mechanics at the golem would bridge the gap for many potential raiders but I understand your point of view.

    A lot of the bosses already have training build-in to them. They either have trash mobs that explain the mechanics, their mechanics escalate in difficulty during the fight, or both. Suppose that the golem did offer training, how exactly would that help these potential raiders in finding groups? It wouldn't, because this type of training, either using easier modes or training golems will never allow those players to join groups easily.

  • phs.6089phs.6089 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 29, 2019

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    using easier modes will never allow those players to join groups easily.

    >
    Mentality of GW2 players? How often t3 players are not allowed to join t4s, after they finished tier 3s?
    How often in other games you seen, Oh, no, you only did easy mod, no way you coming with us to normal.
    Please not I'm not talking of Hard modes and higher.
    Then again screw joining those raids. People that gained confidence in easy mod, would organize own runs in Normal.

    "There is always a lighthouse, there's always a man, there's always a city."

  • MoVitae.2417MoVitae.2417 Member ✭✭
    edited June 29, 2019

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    Suppose that the golem did offer training, how exactly would that help these potential raiders in finding groups? It wouldn't, because this type of training, either using easier modes or training golems will never allow those players to join groups easily.

    The way I see it, joining groups is not really a problem. There are training runs regularly, which is good, and some commanders will fill their squad with pugs without asking for kill proofs. I consider myself semi-exp or almost semi-exp and I know that eventually all those mechanics will become second nature to me. There is just this awkward phase of having the correct build, knowing your rotations and still getting downed in front of your teammates more than is comformtable, not because you are bad but because you are learning and not quite there yet. Maybe adding boss mechanics to the golem would help, maybe not, I don't know. But if it is implemented, I probably won't need it by then. It's just something I would have liked to play with at this point of my training.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @phs.6089 said:
    Mentality of GW2 players? How often t3 players are not allowed to join t4s, after they finished tier 3s?

    The question is how many players that finish their T3s are allowed in T4s, which is probably close to zero.

    How often in other games you seen, Oh, no, you only did easy mod, no way you coming with us to normal.

    ...in every single one?

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @MoVitae.2417 said:
    The way I see it, joining groups is not really a problem. There are training runs regularly, which is good, and some commanders will fill their squad with pugs without asking for kill proofs. I consider myself semi-exp or almost semi-exp and I know that eventually all those mechanics will become second nature to me. There is just this awkward phase of having the correct build, knowing your rotations and still getting downed in front of your teammates more than is comformtable, not because you are bad but because you are learning and not quite there yet. Maybe adding boss mechanics to the golem would help, maybe not, I don't know. But if it is implemented, I probably won't need it by then. It's just something I would have liked to play with at this point of my training.

    In lots of the Raid bosses they start rather easy with fewer mechanics and progressively add more mechanics to deal with. Further in most of the Raid bosses those that need to deal with the most important mechanics are really few. As a fresh player to a Raid boss (even with experience) you are better off not dealing with the hardest mechanics. For example, tanking on VG, going for the cannons at Sabetha, eating mushrooms at Slothasor, reflecting Matthias, pushing the Orb at KC and so on. There are roles that require dealing with more mechanics and roles that deal with far less mechanics making Raids nearly open world bosses. DPSing Sabetha is as simple as rotating around her when the flamewall spawns, stay on the tag so the flamewall spawns at the correct place and just follow a rotation. Nothing really complex.

  • phs.6089phs.6089 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 30, 2019

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @phs.6089 said:
    Mentality of GW2 players? How often t3 players are not allowed to join t4s, after they finished tier 3s?

    The question is how many players that finish their T3s are allowed in T4s, which is probably close to zero.

    How often in other games you seen, Oh, no, you only did easy mod, no way you coming with us to normal.

    ...in every single one?

    Both statements are wrong. And you know that.

    Players that finished t3s get into T4s, the game I play atm, not to mention any other game I played before, if one has line that they finished easy mode 10 times(expirinced in XXEM), they are welcomed to to normal. This was the case in any other game that had instanced content.

    Trying to convince me that t3 players finished tier are NOT ALLOWED to join t4s is just ridiculous.

    "There is always a lighthouse, there's always a man, there's always a city."

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 30, 2019

    @phs.6089 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @phs.6089 said:
    Mentality of GW2 players? How often t3 players are not allowed to join t4s, after they finished tier 3s?

    The question is how many players that finish their T3s are allowed in T4s, which is probably close to zero.

    How often in other games you seen, Oh, no, you only did easy mod, no way you coming with us to normal.

    ...in every single one?

    Both statements are wrong. And you know that.

    Players that finished t3s get into T4s, the game I play atm, not to mention any other game I played before, if one has line that they finished easy mode 10 times(expirinced in XXEM), they are welcomed to to normal. This was the case in any other game that had instanced content.

    Trying to convince me that t3 players finished tier are NOT ALLOWED to join t4s is just ridiculous.

    Most T3 players who go into T4 are plain terrible due to the very bad habits they acquire while playing T3 fractals.

    I'd even go as far and argue that players who skipped T3 completely are better off learning how to perform in T4 than people who went through T3 hell for ages. If they go from T2 to T4, they are far less preconditioned in an incorrect way.

    Both groups are required to learn T4 fractals basically from scratch though since mechanics, counter play, class synergy, performance, etc. is of actual consequence in T4 compared to any tier before. All people learn before T4 is basically the layout of the fractal and that does not require a specific training mode.

    The intended learning which is supposed to happen simply does not happen because most people simply bash their head against anything before T4 (and many still do in T4) without paying attention to mechanics, builds, etc. because it still works and gets the job done.

    Obviously nobody is NOT ALLOWED to go anywhere. This term makes more sense when used as meaning: do they have the necessary experience or should they go somewhere? The answer to that question is very simple: no.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 30, 2019

    @phs.6089 said:
    Both statements are wrong. And you know that.

    Actually both statements are true. And you know that if you've played other mmorpgs.
    Edit: only games where finishing the easier tiers of instanced might allowed you to join higher tiers is when those higher tiers aren't actually more difficult but instead higher difficulties are gated by gear. You play the easier tier to get the gear to survive the next one, rinse and repeat.

    Also, even if they added an easy mode tier for Raids, would that remove requirements for KP or LI? Or, god forbid, KP and LI would drop in the easier tier?

  • phs.6089phs.6089 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 30, 2019

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @phs.6089 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @phs.6089 said:
    Mentality of GW2 players? How often t3 players are not allowed to join t4s, after they finished tier 3s?

    The question is how many players that finish their T3s are allowed in T4s, which is probably close to zero.

    How often in other games you seen, Oh, no, you only did easy mod, no way you coming with us to normal.

    ...in every single one?

    Both statements are wrong. And you know that.

    Players that finished t3s get into T4s, the game I play atm, not to mention any other game I played before, if one has line that they finished easy mode 10 times(expirinced in XXEM), they are welcomed to to normal. This was the case in any other game that had instanced content.

    Trying to convince me that t3 players finished tier are NOT ALLOWED to join t4s is just ridiculous.

    Most T3 players who go into T4 are plain terrible due to the very bad habits they acquire while playing T3 fractals.

    I'd even go as far and argue that players who skipped T3 completely are better off learning how to perform in T4 than people who went through T3 hell for ages. If they go from T2 to T4, they are far less preconditioned in an incorrect way.

    Both groups are required to learn T4 fractals basically from scratch though since mechanics, counter play, class synergy, performance, etc. is of actual consequence in T4 compared to any tier before. All people learn before T4 is basically the layout of the fractal and that does not require a specific training mode.

    The intended learning which is supposed to happen simply does not happen because most people simply bash their head against anything before T4 (and many still do in T4) without paying attention to mechanics, builds, etc. because it still works and gets the job done.

    Obviously nobody is NOT ALLOWED to go anywhere. This term makes more sense when used as meaning: do they have the necessary experience or should they go somewhere? The answer to that question is very simple: no.

    That is another question, if someone went trough t3 hell and didn't learn, their class role, mech, rotation etc that is on them, they get kicked outta t4s, I agree but still it's on them.

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @phs.6089 said:
    Both statements are wrong. And you know that.

    Actually both statements are true. And you know that if you've played other mmorpgs.
    Edit: only games where finishing the easier tiers of instanced might allowed you to join higher tiers is when those higher tiers aren't actually more difficult but instead higher difficulties are gated by gear. You play the easier tier to get the gear to survive the next one, rinse and repeat.

    Also, even if they added an easy mode tier for Raids, would that remove requirements for KP or LI? Or, god forbid, KP and LI would drop in the easier tier?

    As far as this game goes, it will drop easy mode kp lmao. Just like I said, people with x10 easy KPs will gather together and go trough normal.
    When they gain confidence they can do easy mode with no problem. When that happened they will get that KPs and LIs. Just like players that finished t3 and don't yet have omniportion, organize own 'chill' runs with no food, pots,exp requirements in LFG.

    "There is always a lighthouse, there's always a man, there's always a city."

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @phs.6089 said:
    As far as this game goes, it will drop easy mode kp lmao.

    Which why I was saying that a training mode will never allow those finishing it to join higher tier groups, since joining content that provides KP requires procession of that same KP... I guess I should've said "non-training higher tier groups", because obviously anyone can join a training run. it's a bit backwards but it's how the system works and it works this way because organized groups running more difficult content shouldn't be forced to train others. If I want a quick Raid run or T4 CM run, then it's within my rights to get such a run and not be forced by a random nobody to train them.

    people with x10 easy KPs will gather together and go trough normal.

    I'm not quite sure how this would work. You are saying that once a player gets x10 easy KPs they will start seeking out other players to try higher tiers? Why 10? And how will they do so? Add LFG listings with "Looking for groups to Raid with x10 easy KPs"?

    The only actual/valid way for a training mode to help a team is if they have the 10 players already and want to train their team on something that is easier than the real thing. But even in that situation it won't work on those Raid bosses that have build-in training mechanics.
    Do we need an easy mode for Vale Guardian before the first split?
    Do we need an easy mode for Gorseval before the first split?
    Do we need an easy mode for Matthias ice element?
    Do we need an easy mode for Keep Construct before the first orb phase?

    Honestly in all those cases, the bosses are really easy already, there is no need for an easier mode there, so groups aiming to train can simply do that, train, on that lower difficulty version of the boss and move on when they are confident they got it right. Now of course not all Raid bosses have build-in training mechanics, and for those that don't there could be some form of new version that removes a mechanic or two. Maybe. But not for every boss out there.

  • phs.6089phs.6089 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 1, 2019

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @phs.6089 said:
    As far as this game goes, it will drop easy mode kp lmao.

    Which why I was saying that a training mode will never allow those finishing it to join higher tier groups, since joining content that provides KP requires procession of that same KP... I guess I should've said "non-training higher tier groups", because obviously anyone can join a training run. it's a bit backwards but it's how the system works and it works this way because organized groups running more difficult content shouldn't be forced to train others. If I want a quick Raid run or T4 CM run, then it's within my rights to get such a run and not be forced by a random nobody to train them.

    people with x10 easy KPs will gather together and go trough normal.

    I'm not quite sure how this would work. You are saying that once a player gets x10 easy KPs they will start seeking out other players to try higher tiers? Why 10? And how will they do so? Add LFG listings with "Looking for groups to Raid with x10 easy KPs"?

    The only actual/valid way for a training mode to help a team is if they have the 10 players already and want to train their team on something that is easier than the real thing. But even in that situation it won't work on those Raid bosses that have build-in training mechanics.
    Do we need an easy mode for Vale Guardian before the first split?
    Do we need an easy mode for Gorseval before the first split?
    Do we need an easy mode for Matthias ice element?
    Do we need an easy mode for Keep Construct before the first orb phase?

    Honestly in all those cases, the bosses are really easy already, there is no need for an easier mode there, so groups aiming to train can simply do that, train, on that lower difficulty version of the boss and move on when they are confident they got it right. Now of course not all Raid bosses have build-in training mechanics, and for those that don't there could be some form of new version that removes a mechanic or two. Maybe. But not for every boss out there.

    I gave you example of t3 players seeking t4 runs, something like that, yes. Why 10? Why t4 players ask for title and bit of ess to go get CMs? Not 50, not 100. To get people that have about some exp but don't bother others, who can breeze trough CMs.
    Easy mod for all wings, no need to break them into stages. Even Escort and Spirit Run. The aim of easy mod is to show people the intacne and mec, give them confidence and provide training. Simple as that.
    Returning to your example of gear progression, should be something like t3s again. Most of players starting t3s have some mix of ascended and exo, progressing trough t3s, gets them (this way or other) full ascended.

    "There is always a lighthouse, there's always a man, there's always a city."

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @phs.6089 said:
    I gave you example of t3 players seeking t4 runs, something like that, yes.

    That doesn't answer the question of how they are going to come together and go to the higher tiers.

  • phs.6089phs.6089 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 1, 2019

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @phs.6089 said:
    I gave you example of t3 players seeking t4 runs, something like that, yes.

    That doesn't answer the question of how they are going to come together and go to the higher tiers.

    Alright Ill break it to step by step if it's not clear to you. I assume you never saw 'chill' runs LFGs for t4s and best of all you never wander what kind of players do them.
    1. They have no omniportion( read have no KPs)
    2. They have confidence they can clear t3s but without having good experience, don't wanna mess with others daily rush, so they look for almost same exp players.
    3. They will LFG 'chill run, without asking for for exp, pots, foods and utilities.
    4. They will have patience and expect anyone to join that run have it as well

    It's that complicated. So complicated that is hard to imagine and comprehend. Hope this answers your question.

    I have another question. Why do you care how they will? Why do you care at all? I don't care for something I let it alone, cus you know If stars are lit. It means there is someone who needs it.
    You are not the player that would go for easy mod neither you are one that will allow one with easy mod mastered to join your run.
    Why are you here and why do you care so much, asking me to explain you system that is already in game and works just fine?
    Meaning if it was done for raids it will work, it will work exactly the same or about the same or players will find a way.

    "There is always a lighthouse, there's always a man, there's always a city."

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 1, 2019

    @phs.6089 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @phs.6089 said:
    I gave you example of t3 players seeking t4 runs, something like that, yes.

    That doesn't answer the question of how they are going to come together and go to the higher tiers.

    Alright Ill break it to step by step if it's not clear to you. I assume you never saw 'chill' runs LFGs for t4s and best of all you never wander what kind of players do them.
    1. They have no omniportion( read have no KPs)
    2. They have confidence they can clear t3s but without having good experience, don't wanna mess with others daily rush, so they look for almost same exp players.
    3. They will LFG 'chill run, without asking for for exp, pots, foods and utilities.
    4. They will have patience and expect anyone to join that run have it as well

    It's that complicated. So complicated that is hard to imagine and comprehend. Hope this answers your question.

    I have another question. Why do you care how they will? Why do you care at all? I don't care for something I let it alone, cus you know If stars are lit. It means there is someone who needs it.
    You are not the player that would go for easy mod neither you are one that will allow one with easy mod mastered to join your run.
    Why are you here and why do you care so much, asking me to explain you system that is already in game and works just fine?
    Meaning if it was done for raids it will work, it will work exactly the same or about the same or players will find a way.

    and thus, they will run "chill runs" in T4 and learn how to complete T4. This can be done without ever having stepped foot in T3, or any fractal for that matter. A player could go strait into T4, watch some guides before, practice a bit on the golem, and be miles better than players who did none of those things and simply completed T1-3 without every working on their fundamentals.

    You are literally stating exactly what people are saying: training runs are not needed and T1-3 have little to no benefit for completing T4 until people actually start running T4.

    As far as why he cares? He doesn't. He cares about developer resources and division of the already small player base wanting to raid or actively raiding.

    @phs.6089 said:
    Meaning if it was done for raids it will work, it will work exactly the same or about the same or players will find a way.

    Player's have found ways which work. They are called training runs, training discords, guides, guildes, etc.

  • phs.6089phs.6089 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @phs.6089 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @phs.6089 said:
    I gave you example of t3 players seeking t4 runs, something like that, yes.

    That doesn't answer the question of how they are going to come together and go to the higher tiers.

    Alright Ill break it to step by step if it's not clear to you. I assume you never saw 'chill' runs LFGs for t4s and best of all you never wander what kind of players do them.
    1. They have no omniportion( read have no KPs)
    2. They have confidence they can clear t3s but without having good experience, don't wanna mess with others daily rush, so they look for almost same exp players.
    3. They will LFG 'chill run, without asking for for exp, pots, foods and utilities.
    4. They will have patience and expect anyone to join that run have it as well

    It's that complicated. So complicated that is hard to imagine and comprehend. Hope this answers your question.

    I have another question. Why do you care how they will? Why do you care at all? I don't care for something I let it alone, cus you know If stars are lit. It means there is someone who needs it.
    You are not the player that would go for easy mod neither you are one that will allow one with easy mod mastered to join your run.
    Why are you here and why do you care so much, asking me to explain you system that is already in game and works just fine?
    Meaning if it was done for raids it will work, it will work exactly the same or about the same or players will find a way.

    and thus, they will run "chill runs" in T4 and learn how to complete T4. This can be done without ever having stepped foot in T3, or any fractal for that matter. A player could go strait into T4, watch some guides before, practice a bit on the golem, and be miles better than players who did none of those things and simply completed T1-3 wihtout every working on their fundamentals.

    You are literally stating exactly what people are saying: training runs are not needed and T1-3 have little to no benefit for completing T4 until people actually start running T4.

    As far as why he cares? He doesn't. He cares about developer resources and division of the already small player base wanting to raid or actively raiding.

    @phs.6089 said:
    Meaning if it was done for raids it will work, it will work exactly the same or about the same or players will find a way.

    Player's have found ways which work. They are called training runs, training discords, guides, guildes, etc.

    we are going in cycles here. starting t4s with no confidence, for many turns out to be disappointment.
    training runs would have been good if one could pick up the time themselves.

    "There is always a lighthouse, there's always a man, there's always a city."

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @phs.6089 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @phs.6089 said:
    I gave you example of t3 players seeking t4 runs, something like that, yes.

    That doesn't answer the question of how they are going to come together and go to the higher tiers.

    Alright Ill break it to step by step if it's not clear to you. I assume you never saw 'chill' runs LFGs for t4s and best of all you never wander what kind of players do them.
    1. They have no omniportion( read have no KPs)
    2. They have confidence they can clear t3s but without having good experience, don't wanna mess with others daily rush, so they look for almost same exp players.
    3. They will LFG 'chill run, without asking for for exp, pots, foods and utilities.
    4. They will have patience and expect anyone to join that run have it as well

    It's that complicated. So complicated that is hard to imagine and comprehend. Hope this answers your question.

    It doesn't actually. @Cyninja.2954 did a great job explaining why.

    But I'm gonna add something different, since you insist so much on how good T3 fractals are at training people for T4:
    Imagine that they created a new difficulty tier for Raids that is like that Fractal T3... nearly empty of players. Good job. Creating an entire new "mode", adding extra overhead for any future Raids hampering future development of Raids, and for what? For a T3-like amount of players that will eventually train and go do the normal Raids until that easy mode is pointless and has no players running it anymore. T3 has the by far least amount of players (and for good reason)

    Further, let's suppose that this raid easy mode is indeed T3 difficulty, won't we need T1 and T2 difficulties so they can reach that point first?

  • phs.6089phs.6089 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 1, 2019

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @phs.6089 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @phs.6089 said:
    I gave you example of t3 players seeking t4 runs, something like that, yes.

    That doesn't answer the question of how they are going to come together and go to the higher tiers.

    Alright Ill break it to step by step if it's not clear to you. I assume you never saw 'chill' runs LFGs for t4s and best of all you never wander what kind of players do them.
    1. They have no omniportion( read have no KPs)
    2. They have confidence they can clear t3s but without having good experience, don't wanna mess with others daily rush, so they look for almost same exp players.
    3. They will LFG 'chill run, without asking for for exp, pots, foods and utilities.
    4. They will have patience and expect anyone to join that run have it as well

    It's that complicated. So complicated that is hard to imagine and comprehend. Hope this answers your question.

    It doesn't actually. @Cyninja.2954 did a great job explaining why.

    But I'm gonna add something different, since you insist so much on how good T3 fractals are at training people for T4:
    Imagine that they created a new difficulty tier for Raids that is like that Fractal T3... nearly empty of players. Good job. Creating an entire new "mode", adding extra overhead for any future Raids hampering future development of Raids, and for what? For a T3-like amount of players that will eventually train and go do the normal Raids until that easy mode is pointless and has no players running it anymore. T3 has the by far least amount of players (and for good reason)

    Further, let's suppose that this raid easy mode is indeed T3 difficulty, won't we need T1 and T2 difficulties so they can reach that point first?

    Ah, you as most here, think that making easy mode -means creating A NEW Instance, entirely new mode?
    You think, Anet codes every single tier of fractals?
    It works bit different. First they made full code that includes all the mech, then special functions, make them easier for tiers.
    Meaning taking a ready code and twining it, for not so entirely new mode not a big deal.
    By your logic, GW2 playerbase would stay the same and as soon as one wave got trained in easy mode, there would be no new players joining this game?
    So easy mode will be empty? wow.

    You know the reason why t3s have least players, not gonna answer that.

    "There is always a lighthouse, there's always a man, there's always a city."

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 1, 2019

    @phs.6089 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @phs.6089 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @phs.6089 said:
    I gave you example of t3 players seeking t4 runs, something like that, yes.

    That doesn't answer the question of how they are going to come together and go to the higher tiers.

    Alright Ill break it to step by step if it's not clear to you. I assume you never saw 'chill' runs LFGs for t4s and best of all you never wander what kind of players do them.
    1. They have no omniportion( read have no KPs)
    2. They have confidence they can clear t3s but without having good experience, don't wanna mess with others daily rush, so they look for almost same exp players.
    3. They will LFG 'chill run, without asking for for exp, pots, foods and utilities.
    4. They will have patience and expect anyone to join that run have it as well

    It's that complicated. So complicated that is hard to imagine and comprehend. Hope this answers your question.

    It doesn't actually. @Cyninja.2954 did a great job explaining why.

    But I'm gonna add something different, since you insist so much on how good T3 fractals are at training people for T4:
    Imagine that they created a new difficulty tier for Raids that is like that Fractal T3... nearly empty of players. Good job. Creating an entire new "mode", adding extra overhead for any future Raids hampering future development of Raids, and for what? For a T3-like amount of players that will eventually train and go do the normal Raids until that easy mode is pointless and has no players running it anymore. T3 has the by far least amount of players (and for good reason)

    Further, let's suppose that this raid easy mode is indeed T3 difficulty, won't we need T1 and T2 difficulties so they can reach that point first?

    Ah, you as most here, think that making easy mode -means creating A NEW Instance, entirely new mode?
    You think, Anet codes every single tier of fractals?
    It works bit different. First they made full code that includes all the mech, then special functions, make them easier for tiers.
    Meaning taking a ready code and twining it, for not so entirely new mode not a big deal.

    no matter how difficult or easy, it's extra developer resources. Given how constantly things break with even unrelated content being added into the game in raids. Your assumption that this is nearly devoid or developer resource requirements is unfounded.

    @phs.6089 said:
    You know the reason why t3s have least players, not gonna answer that.

    Yes, most people play T1-2 for fun if they do not want challenging group content. The remainder play T4 for maximum reward. The only few who actually play T3 are the ones who want maximum reward but have no ascended armor yet. Doesn't change the fact that T3 is the least played of all fractal tiers.