So this is what happens in Season 5/3rd Expansion — Guild Wars 2 Forums

So this is what happens in Season 5/3rd Expansion

Arden.7480Arden.7480 Member ✭✭✭✭
edited June 23, 2019 in Lore

Aurene is going to have little baby dragons,
One created from death magic
Second created from plant magic
Third created from fire magic
Forth created from crystal magic
Fifth created from ice magic

The only missing magic is water/illusion magics.

Death baby dragon, let's call him Zhaitaffy/Joko junior, will replace Elder Dragon Zhaitan's magics. - will be all about necromancy and will patronize Aurene's wild nature.
Plant baby dragon, let's call him Planty, will replace Mordremoth's magics. - will be all about those who use the Nature as a weapon against baddies and will patronize Aurene's love to the nature.
Fire baby dragon, let's call him Balthmordus, will replace Primordus. - will be all about the fight and strenght and will patronize Aurene's virtues and glory.
Crystal baby dragon (Aurene's favourite) will replace Kralkatorrik together with his Mother, let's call him Aurelios, will symbolize the power of empathy and good will.
Ice baby dragon will replace Jormag, let's call him Chiller, will symbolize the power of partying and having fun, cherishing the good fight.

So we'll have at least 5 new characters. And Aurene will keep them in order from above.

And the only dragon that Aurene doesn't have the magics is Deep Sea Dragon.

Cantha confirmed, Tengu playable race confirmed, the PC as a grandparent confirmed.

The wound is the place where the Light enters you ~Stephane Lo Presti

Comments

  • This alot of content

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I know this is a joke post, but I really hope ArenaNet avoids the "three and pregnant" plot. There are other dragons out in the world, and we have a ritual to free dragon minions from their mental enslavement.

    @Arden.7480 said:
    And the only dragon that Aurene doesn't have the magics is Deep Sea Dragon.

    Technically she doesn't have Primordus' or Jormag's either. Balthazar somehow converted those into his own form of magic. It's why there's no show of the Bloodstone's magic either.

    Aurene merely has Kralkatorrik's and demigod Balthazar's magic, and a portion of Zhaitan's and Mordremoth's magic (which seems to be Death and Mind respectively - there's never a show of plant or shadow among Kralk or Aurene, though there is among Primordus and Jormag).

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Psientist.6437Psientist.6437 Member ✭✭✭

    I wouldn't put any money on the "three and pregnant" plot, but I would put even money on Aurene "dying for real this time" plot. She discovers a way to balance magic by transforming herself into something lifeless or without consciousness. Perhaps transforming herself into shrines across Tyria that act as magic routers/capacitors.

    all primes work and not tearing down has value
    ready purrlayer @ any parsed feels enhance the value of something that is already worth everything
    what other chordal approach but penultimate singing along with other quantum cuddle clocks

  • Blocki.4931Blocki.4931 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Psientist.6437 said:
    I wouldn't put any money on the "three and pregnant" plot, but I would put even money on Aurene "dying for real this time" plot. She discovers a way to balance magic by transforming herself into something lifeless or without consciousness. Perhaps transforming herself into shrines across Tyria that act as magic routers/capacitors.

    But that would make 0 sense, as her being ALIVE is exactly what you are describing already

    Very passive aggressively chuckling, because I'm totally not mad on the Internet.

  • Eekasqueak.7850Eekasqueak.7850 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Psientist.6437 said:
    I wouldn't put any money on the "three and pregnant" plot, but I would put even money on Aurene "dying for real this time" plot. She discovers a way to balance magic by transforming herself into something lifeless or without consciousness. Perhaps transforming herself into shrines across Tyria that act as magic routers/capacitors.

    She's not going to die, that ship has sailed.

  • ugrakarma.9416ugrakarma.9416 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 25, 2019

    I just hope they bring something really epic. in a way on another the season 4 was too predictable, except directions that was too stupid that no one can believe to be true as the sudden death of Joko and Aurene's lightning resurrection.> @Psientist.6437 said:

    Aurene's too young to be tied down with a family. She deserves the chance to travel and explore herself. Besides, if there is anything that will plant the Torment in her soul, it would be raising 5 kids as a single mother.

    The Pact would create some sort of social welfare for Dragons too. They will discover that tax on rich people will work better than fight elder dragons directly.

    "It's a testament to the folly of the humans and their gods. They say Arah was sacred, but all I see is one big dragon nest."(Rytlock Brimstone)

  • Arden.7480Arden.7480 Member ✭✭✭✭

    And if Aurene consumes DSD's magics in Expansion 3, then there will be a 6th baby dragon, let's call him Bub, and will be ugly and no one will like him, but then it will turn into a beautiful angelic dragon, and everyone will see that you shouldn't judge anyone by someone's appearance.

    You don't know how much fun I'm having writing those stuff. ;)

    The wound is the place where the Light enters you ~Stephane Lo Presti

  • Psientist.6437Psientist.6437 Member ✭✭✭

    @Blocki.4931 said:

    @Psientist.6437 said:
    I wouldn't put any money on the "three and pregnant" plot, but I would put even money on Aurene "dying for real this time" plot. She discovers a way to balance magic by transforming herself into something lifeless or without consciousness. Perhaps transforming herself into shrines across Tyria that act as magic routers/capacitors.

    But that would make 0 sense, as her being ALIVE is exactly what you are describing already

    It makes some sense. It would reduce the chance of the Kormir-Traheane effect occurring which we already see happening with Aurene. What are people calling her, crystal dragon jesus? We also don't know that she can balance magic by herself in her current form. We don't have any clue as to who else could help her and there is the chance that being a "magic balancer" comes with risks. Perhaps the risk can never be fully mitigated. We do know Aurene is willing to sacrifice herself. We also know there is a big reveal about The All coming. Since she is a crystal dragon, she would be able to create crystal spaces/ artifacts.

    all primes work and not tearing down has value
    ready purrlayer @ any parsed feels enhance the value of something that is already worth everything
    what other chordal approach but penultimate singing along with other quantum cuddle clocks

  • cptaylor.2670cptaylor.2670 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Psientist.6437 said:
    I wouldn't put any money on the "three and pregnant" plot, but I would put even money on Aurene "dying for real this time" plot. She discovers a way to balance magic by transforming herself into something lifeless or without consciousness. Perhaps transforming herself into shrines across Tyria that act as magic routers/capacitors.

    I personally find it more likely that she replaces many of them for a little while, until we realize she can't hold as much or as many different magics as we think and we start having to branch out to find other dragons that she can disperse some of the aspects to. If that's a thing. With no origin lore on Elder Dragons it's kind of hard to predict though.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Psientist.6437 said:
    It makes some sense. It would reduce the chance of the Kormir-Traheane effect occurring which we already see happening with Aurene. What are people calling her, crystal dragon jesus?

    It wouldn't really make sense given the plot so far as told us we need six living Elder Dragons to stabilize the world. It's not just about maintaining magic either, but maintaining The All itself. If a large number of shrines was sufficient, then the elder races would have made more Bloodstones while the Elder Dragons slept.

    Aurene's being called a literal crystal dragon jesus because it's a trope and in War Eternal that's what she pretty much becomes in her asanine resurrection and how the Order of the Crystal Bloom treat her as if she died for their sins. How folks react to Aurene is nothing akin to Kormir or Trahearne.

    We also don't know that she can balance magic by herself in her current form. We don't have any clue as to who else could help her and there is the chance that being a "magic balancer" comes with risks. Perhaps the risk can never be fully mitigated.

    We actually do know that she cannot balance magic by herself, and we do know there are risks that come with balancing magic - and we know those risks can be mitigated. The entire purpose of the champion role is to mitigate those risks:

    Glint: You will see, Scion, that absorbing magic comes naturally. But the power, its temptations...they exact a price.
    Glint: Champion, this magic is powerful and dangerous. Share the burden so she can absorb it.
    Glint: Good. Power has many uses, Scion. By choosing to share it and heal wounds, you strengthen your bond with mortals.
    Glint: Remember that bond. As the power grows, so will the dangers. And the temptations.
    Glint: More powerful still, and more dangerous...
    Glint: Well done. When Elder Dragons gorge on magic with abandon, the world falls out of balance. We have no choice but to act.
    Glint: To use power responsibly is to know when and how to share it—and when not to use it at all. Now continue to the next trial.
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Scion_&_Champion#In_Glint.27s_Lair

    As for who can replace the other Elder Dragons: unless ArenaNet is deciding to go against established lore in yet another retcon, we do have some potential replacements, depending on what the requirements for replacements are. We also have a ritual that will allow us to free potential replacements from Elder Dragon control much like Glint was.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Psientist.6437Psientist.6437 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 26, 2019

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Psientist.6437 said:
    It makes some sense. It would reduce the chance of the Kormir-Traheane effect occurring which we already see happening with Aurene. What are people calling her, crystal dragon jesus?

    It wouldn't really make sense given the plot so far as told us we need six living Elder Dragons to stabilize the world. It's not just about maintaining magic either, but maintaining The All itself. If a large number of shrines was sufficient, then the elder races would have made more Bloodstones while the Elder Dragons slept.

    Aurene's being called a literal crystal dragon jesus because it's a trope and in War Eternal that's what she pretty much becomes in her asanine resurrection and how the Order of the Crystal Bloom treat her as if she died for their sins. How folks react to Aurene is nothing akin to Kormir or Trahearne.

    We also don't know that she can balance magic by herself in her current form. We don't have any clue as to who else could help her and there is the chance that being a "magic balancer" comes with risks. Perhaps the risk can never be fully mitigated.

    We actually do know that she cannot balance magic by herself, and we do know there are risks that come with balancing magic - and we know those risks can be mitigated. The entire purpose of the champion role is to mitigate those risks:

    Glint: You will see, Scion, that absorbing magic comes naturally. But the power, its temptations...they exact a price.
    Glint: Champion, this magic is powerful and dangerous. Share the burden so she can absorb it.
    Glint: Good. Power has many uses, Scion. By choosing to share it and heal wounds, you strengthen your bond with mortals.
    Glint: Remember that bond. As the power grows, so will the dangers. And the temptations.
    Glint: More powerful still, and more dangerous...
    Glint: Well done. When Elder Dragons gorge on magic with abandon, the world falls out of balance. We have no choice but to act.
    Glint: To use power responsibly is to know when and how to share it—and when not to use it at all. Now continue to the next trial.
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Scion_&_Champion#In_Glint.27s_Lair

    As for who can replace the other Elder Dragons: unless ArenaNet is deciding to go against established lore in yet another retcon, we do have some potential replacements, depending on what the requirements for replacements are. We also have a ritual that will allow us to free potential replacements from Elder Dragon control much like Glint was.

    Thank you for the link, I loved this part: "The name itself is a Dead Unicorn Trope as few writers are willing to literally use a Crystal Dragon"
    Aurene's death and resurection was poorly handled. All of those Tyrians who loved Aurene, fought beside her, knew she had eaten a Lich but for some reason forget they live in Tyria and spend days moping around her impaled body. The way the studio tried to sell this scenario was pretentious.

    I am not qualified to argue lore with you, however I don't think there is any chance that we see 6 beings take the place of the Elder dragons. Where are they? What would prevent them from going mad with magic sometime in the future? Imo, all signs point to a major revelation concerning The All that changes how we approach maintaining the balance of magic and the integrity of The All. The way Aurene behaves at the end of War Eternal leads me to believe that everyone on Tyria doesn't understand what The All is, but she does. We don't know that The All needs 6 Elder Dragons, we just know that it uses, well used, 6 Elder Dragons.

    all primes work and not tearing down has value
    ready purrlayer @ any parsed feels enhance the value of something that is already worth everything
    what other chordal approach but penultimate singing along with other quantum cuddle clocks

  • Eekasqueak.7850Eekasqueak.7850 Member ✭✭✭✭

    The resurrection doesn't bother me inherently because they wrote themselves into a corner with the death itself which IMO wasn't needed.

  • Psientist.6437Psientist.6437 Member ✭✭✭

    @Eekasqueak.7850 said:
    The resurrection doesn't bother me inherently because they wrote themselves into a corner with the death itself which IMO wasn't needed.

    Or was it? Aurene was not the same dragon after she resurrected. She may have discovered something while dead that set her on the path of revealing the true nature of The All. I wouldn't be surprised if her death and resurrection ended up being important plot points that they tried to camouflage with pretentious and unrealistic trauma drama and anguish kitten.

    all primes work and not tearing down has value
    ready purrlayer @ any parsed feels enhance the value of something that is already worth everything
    what other chordal approach but penultimate singing along with other quantum cuddle clocks

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 26, 2019

    @Psientist.6437 said:
    I don't think there is any chance that we see 6 beings take the place of the Elder dragons. Where are they?

    Like I said, this depends on the requirements for being able to replace an Elder Dragon. We know Glint, Vlast, and Aurene could. They're technically dragon minions, but they're also literally children of Elder Dragons. Does this mean replacements must be literal children of Elder Dragons? Or can any dragon minion serve as a replacement as implied by Tequatl's power boost from Zhaitan's death? We know that "lesser dragons" like wyverns and skyscales can't become Elder Dragons, so that knocks off Kuunavang, Shiny, and other saltspray dragons off the list.

    If a scion is specifically needed, then we're pretty kitten outa luck at the moment, and better hope that we can find some more baby dragons out there.

    But if "any dragon minion" or even just "certain dragon minions" would suffice, then we have a very huge roster of replacements. Chief among them being the Pale Tree.

    Until ArenaNet delves into the plot, however, I doubt we'll get the answer. But Aurene dying to create micro bloodstones across the globe won't be the answer, as we've already been told that bloodstones and Balthazar could not fulfill the role.

    What would prevent them from going mad with magic sometime in the future?

    The same thing that prevents Aurene from going mad. Her connection to mortals allowing her to share magic and the burden. Whatever replacements we get, we'll have to create that connection with them too. Not likely the Commander doing it this time, but we have plenty of members of Dragon's Watch to fulfill the role as other would-be Elder Dragons' champions.

    Imo, all signs point to a major revelation concerning The All that changes how we approach maintaining the balance of magic and the integrity of The All. The way Aurene behaves at the end of War Eternal leads me to believe that everyone on Tyria doesn't understand what The All is, but she does. We don't know that The All needs 6 Elder Dragons, we just know that it uses, well used, 6 Elder Dragons.

    Doing this route would make the entire plot of Season 3 and Path of Fire pointless as well as the entire ending for Season 4 with Aurene's death and resurrection and the whole "Elder Dragons do not fear death". Making all the drama of your plot pointless is never a good move.

    And if I'm correct in that you're referring to Aurene's talk about how she "wants to" be "cannot describe" what will happen - ArenaNet devs said during Guild Chat that it was basically their handwaving to avoid having to explain what it's like to become an Elder Dragon in order to keep some mystery about what it's like to be an Elder Dragon since Elder Dragons have and still are meant to be beyond mortal comprehension. So I doubt any of that ties into The All not needing six living beings to maintain balance, what we've been told repeatedly since Season 2.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Kalavier.1097Kalavier.1097 Member ✭✭✭

    @Psientist.6437 said:
    Thank you for the link, I loved this part: "The name itself is a Dead Unicorn Trope as few writers are willing to literally use a Crystal Dragon"
    Aurene's death and resurection was poorly handled. All of those Tyrians who loved Aurene, fought beside her, knew she had eaten a Lich but for some reason forget they live in Tyria and spend days moping around her impaled body. The way the studio tried to sell this scenario was pretentious.

    A: Joko bounced back up near-instantly, Aurene did not.
    B: Nobody knew if Joko had an artifact keeping him alive somewhere or the magic was within himself. Most people saw and reacted to Aurene eating a mummy, not going "Aha, she's consuming his magic and gaining it!"
    C: Emotions. When people get very emotional, they may not think rationally. The commander an Aurene both saw her not moving, appearing dead, and Caithe's crystal blooms that came from a connection to Aurene fade away. Caithe couldn't hear Aurene or feel her emotions/thoughts anymore.

    If the person who literally is hearing the thoughts of Aurene and has an intense connection with the dragon goes "she's gone" are you going to go "NOPE, SHE ALIVE CAUSE JOKO."

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Kalavier.1097 said:

    @Psientist.6437 said:
    Thank you for the link, I loved this part: "The name itself is a Dead Unicorn Trope as few writers are willing to literally use a Crystal Dragon"
    Aurene's death and resurection was poorly handled. All of those Tyrians who loved Aurene, fought beside her, knew she had eaten a Lich but for some reason forget they live in Tyria and spend days moping around her impaled body. The way the studio tried to sell this scenario was pretentious.

    A: Joko bounced back up near-instantly, Aurene did not.
    B: Nobody knew if Joko had an artifact keeping him alive somewhere or the magic was within himself. Most people saw and reacted to Aurene eating a mummy, not going "Aha, she's consuming his magic and gaining it!"
    C: Emotions. When people get very emotional, they may not think rationally. The commander an Aurene both saw her not moving, appearing dead, and Caithe's crystal blooms that came from a connection to Aurene fade away. Caithe couldn't hear Aurene or feel her emotions/thoughts anymore.

    If the person who literally is hearing the thoughts of Aurene and has an intense connection with the dragon goes "she's gone" are you going to go "NOPE, SHE ALIVE CAUSE JOKO."

    Don't forget D: Until that moment, Aurene and the Elder Dragons only gained new powers from consuming magic from dead Elder Dragons and demigods, and Joko was neither.

    Honestly, Aurene becoming immortal because of Joko's magic makes less sense than people believing she'd become immortal because of Joko's magic.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Unless the magic joko used was stolen from some thing else? Afaik we dont know how he became immortal right?

  • Psientist.6437Psientist.6437 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 27, 2019

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Psientist.6437 said:
    I don't think there is any chance that we see 6 beings take the place of the Elder dragons. Where are they?

    Like I said, this depends on the requirements for being able to replace an Elder Dragon. We know Glint, Vlast, and Aurene could. They're technically dragon minions, but they're also literally children of Elder Dragons. Does this mean replacements must be literal children of Elder Dragons? Or can any dragon minion serve as a replacement as implied by Tequatl's power boost from Zhaitan's death? We know that "lesser dragons" like wyverns and skyscales can't become Elder Dragons, so that knocks off Kuunavang, Shiny, and other saltspray dragons off the list.

    If a scion is specifically needed, then we're pretty kitten outa luck at the moment, and better hope that we can find some more baby dragons out there.

    But if "any dragon minion" or even just "certain dragon minions" would suffice, then we have a very huge roster of replacements. Chief among them being the Pale Tree.

    Until ArenaNet delves into the plot, however, I doubt we'll get the answer. But Aurene dying to create micro bloodstones across the globe won't be the answer, as we've already been told that bloodstones and Balthazar could not fulfill the role.

    What would prevent them from going mad with magic sometime in the future?

    The same thing that prevents Aurene from going mad. Her connection to mortals allowing her to share magic and the burden. Whatever replacements we get, we'll have to create that connection with them too. Not likely the Commander doing it this time, but we have plenty of members of Dragon's Watch to fulfill the role as other would-be Elder Dragons' champions.

    Imo, all signs point to a major revelation concerning The All that changes how we approach maintaining the balance of magic and the integrity of The All. The way Aurene behaves at the end of War Eternal leads me to believe that everyone on Tyria doesn't understand what The All is, but she does. We don't know that The All needs 6 Elder Dragons, we just know that it uses, well used, 6 Elder Dragons.

    Doing this route would make the entire plot of Season 3 and Path of Fire pointless as well as the entire ending for Season 4 with Aurene's death and resurrection and the whole "Elder Dragons do not fear death". Making all the drama of your plot pointless is never a good move.

    And if I'm correct in that you're referring to Aurene's talk about how she "wants to" be "cannot describe" what will happen - ArenaNet devs said during Guild Chat that it was basically their handwaving to avoid having to explain what it's like to become an Elder Dragon in order to keep some mystery about what it's like to be an Elder Dragon since Elder Dragons have and still are meant to be beyond mortal comprehension. So I doubt any of that ties into The All not needing six living beings to maintain balance, what we've been told repeatedly since Season 2.

    What do you make of Aurne's parting words and last scene in War Eternal? She declares she will reveal All, flaps her wings displacing a fog and revealing the the wide universe. To me, that telegraphs an upcoming and significant revelation concerning The All and that Tyrians are in the dark about the nature of The All.

    I never said anything about Bloodstones, why the focus on Bloodstones?

    You may be right and we need 6 Elder Dragons or pseudo Elder dragons but we haven't spent any time in game talking about who they could be. A lot will have to happen very fast if that is the direction we are going. If it isn't, I don't agree that anything from previous episodes is wasted since it brought us Aurene. She is new and unique, something Tyria has never seen. Yes, Tyrians have been saying we need 6 living beings but do they know enough about The All to say why or are they just reading their instruments, describing what they see and assuming that is the only way it can be? We are missing a key piece of information, the nature of The All.

    all primes work and not tearing down has value
    ready purrlayer @ any parsed feels enhance the value of something that is already worth everything
    what other chordal approach but penultimate singing along with other quantum cuddle clocks

  • Psientist.6437Psientist.6437 Member ✭✭✭

    @Kalavier.1097 said:

    @Psientist.6437 said:
    Thank you for the link, I loved this part: "The name itself is a Dead Unicorn Trope as few writers are willing to literally use a Crystal Dragon"
    Aurene's death and resurection was poorly handled. All of those Tyrians who loved Aurene, fought beside her, knew she had eaten a Lich but for some reason forget they live in Tyria and spend days moping around her impaled body. The way the studio tried to sell this scenario was pretentious.

    A: Joko bounced back up near-instantly, Aurene did not.
    B: Nobody knew if Joko had an artifact keeping him alive somewhere or the magic was within himself. Most people saw and reacted to Aurene eating a mummy, not going "Aha, she's consuming his magic and gaining it!"
    C: Emotions. When people get very emotional, they may not think rationally. The commander an Aurene both saw her not moving, appearing dead, and Caithe's crystal blooms that came from a connection to Aurene fade away. Caithe couldn't hear Aurene or feel her emotions/thoughts anymore.

    If the person who literally is hearing the thoughts of Aurene and has an intense connection with the dragon goes "she's gone" are you going to go "NOPE, SHE ALIVE CAUSE JOKO."

    I think these are nonsense answers based on the tricks the writers used to sell the scenario to players. The tricks only work if we assume Tyrians know as little about their world as we do, as though they are just visiting as well. Which is ridiculous.

    Within the first five minutes the Commander or someone else would be looking for any witnesses to what happened. Did anyone see Aurene's magic leave her body? Did any Asuran devices pick up her magic leaving her body. Was there any sign of her magic reaching the other Elder Dragons? There would be plenty of devices and people watching them.

    How do soldiers react to the death of their comrades? They get very emotional but they never leave corpses impaled on spikes for days. Tyrians would have had Aurene back alive within minutes. They wouldn't need to prove to themselves that Joko's magic lived on in her, they would have hoped and acted.

    all primes work and not tearing down has value
    ready purrlayer @ any parsed feels enhance the value of something that is already worth everything
    what other chordal approach but penultimate singing along with other quantum cuddle clocks

  • Eekasqueak.7850Eekasqueak.7850 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Psientist.6437 said:

    @Eekasqueak.7850 said:
    The resurrection doesn't bother me inherently because they wrote themselves into a corner with the death itself which IMO wasn't needed.

    Or was it? Aurene was not the same dragon after she resurrected. She may have discovered something while dead that set her on the path of revealing the true nature of The All. I wouldn't be surprised if her death and resurrection ended up being important plot points that they tried to camouflage with pretentious and unrealistic trauma drama and anguish kitten.

    I don't think they plan that far ahead.

  • Randulf.7614Randulf.7614 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Eekasqueak.7850 said:

    @Psientist.6437 said:

    @Eekasqueak.7850 said:
    The resurrection doesn't bother me inherently because they wrote themselves into a corner with the death itself which IMO wasn't needed.

    Or was it? Aurene was not the same dragon after she resurrected. She may have discovered something while dead that set her on the path of revealing the true nature of The All. I wouldn't be surprised if her death and resurrection ended up being important plot points that they tried to camouflage with pretentious and unrealistic trauma drama and anguish kitten.

    I don't think they plan that far ahead.

    Correct. They plan one episode at a time. Her death and resurrection were not planned together for example but as events decided at the start of that episode.

    What sleep is here? What dreams there are in the unctuous coiling of the snakes mortal shuffling. weapon in my hand. My hand the arcing deathblow at the end of all things. The horror. The horror. I embrace it. . .

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 27, 2019

    @Psientist.6437 said:
    What do you make of Aurne's parting words and last scene in War Eternal? She declares she will reveal All, flaps her wings displacing a fog and revealing the the wide universe. To me, that telegraphs an upcoming and significant revelation concerning The All and that Tyrians are in the dark about the nature of The All.

    That's not what she said. She said nothing about The All:

    Aurene: I can't explain what's about to happen, Champion...
    Aurene: But I want to share it with you.
    Aurene: All of you.

    And like I said before, she was talking about ascending into an Elder Dragon, as confirmed by devs in Guild Chat.

    @Psientist.6437 said:
    I never said anything about Bloodstones, why the focus on Bloodstones?

    Because the "shrines covering the world to regulate magic" is basically a network of bloodstones. Functionally the same thing.

    You may be right and we need 6 Elder Dragons or pseudo Elder dragons but we haven't spent any time in game talking about who they could be. A lot will have to happen very fast if that is the direction we are going.

    Because we haven't had the time. It's been one world ending threat (Balthazar) and then another (Kralkatorrik). The beginning of Season 5 will be the first time we got a moment to breath. This is part of why I think part of Season 5 will be finding replacements for Zhaitan and Mordremoth (another part being that last year, Matthew Medina was writing up a way to get Malyck into the game, and "finding a replacement for Mordremoth" seems like a reasonable way to do so).

    As for pacing... when has ArenaNet not gone through plots in rapid pacing? Though I think half a season to find, and possibly train and elevate, two Elder Dragon replacements isn't that fast.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 27, 2019

    @Randulf.7614 said:

    @Eekasqueak.7850 said:

    @Psientist.6437 said:

    @Eekasqueak.7850 said:
    The resurrection doesn't bother me inherently because they wrote themselves into a corner with the death itself which IMO wasn't needed.

    Or was it? Aurene was not the same dragon after she resurrected. She may have discovered something while dead that set her on the path of revealing the true nature of The All. I wouldn't be surprised if her death and resurrection ended up being important plot points that they tried to camouflage with pretentious and unrealistic trauma drama and anguish kitten.

    I don't think they plan that far ahead.

    Correct. They plan one episode at a time. Her death and resurrection were not planned together for example but as events decided at the start of that episode.

    Not quite. They create a basic outline of the season at the beginning of writing it, but they don't (necessarily) create connections between events or how/why events occur.

    They knew they wanted to kill Aurene off fairly early on in the season, and thus they knew they'd bring her back. But it wasn't until they had gotten to writing Episode 6 that they had official thought process into how she comes back.

    That said, them planning in the beginning that her death was anything more than a kick for drama is pretty much nulled by their writing process. If they didn't even have plans to resurrect Aurene via Joko's magic when they had planned either event, then they're not likely gonna be planning ahead that her death was part of some grand plan or personal revelation. It was just a shock value in the end, and the reasons for her death being necessary plot-wise got tacted on afterwards.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭

    My money's on Season 5 dealing with the fallout Kralkatorrik created by rampaging through the mists.

    I think we'll be getting 3 possibly 4 maps this season instead of 1 per episode, each new map will be in the mists rather than on the open world and they will be based on the 3 damaged god realms Kralkatorrik flew through.
    The Underworld.
    Fissure of Woe.
    And Melandru's Lost Domain.

    Main villain for season 5 could maybe be Menzies who might take advantage of Balthazars absense, his drained eternal forces which Balthzar had turned into forged and of all the chaos Kralkatorrik wrought to send his Shadow Army through to Tyria, the Underworld and Melandru's Lost Domain.

  • @Kalavier.1097 said:

    If the person who literally is hearing the thoughts of Aurene and has an intense connection with the dragon goes "she's gone" are you going to go "NOPE, SHE ALIVE CAUSE JOKO."

    If I had any common sense, Yes.
    In other words: Taimi, ever since she is in existence, has discovered newer and newer things about dragons - the fact, that with all the evidence she has collected and the critical thinking the story has led us to believe she possesses, she couldn't think of this while pressing F(akest cry ever recorded in voice acting history), is baffling at best.

  • Randulf.7614Randulf.7614 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I’d like to see the Consortium fleshed our more and become more involved, either as a neutral party working in maps or as a shadowy organisation who are up to something secret

    What sleep is here? What dreams there are in the unctuous coiling of the snakes mortal shuffling. weapon in my hand. My hand the arcing deathblow at the end of all things. The horror. The horror. I embrace it. . .

  • Dami.5046Dami.5046 Member ✭✭✭✭

    People bang on so much about wanting different things, so i'm going to bang my drum and say I hope they do something completely different. The Aurene story reached it conclusion, she is alive and an Elder.
    And Hell, let's forget about what happened in season 4 and start a fresh with a story which possibly leads us to a new expansion.

  • Psientist.6437Psientist.6437 Member ✭✭✭

    @Adamixos.6785 said:

    @Kalavier.1097 said:

    If the person who literally is hearing the thoughts of Aurene and has an intense connection with the dragon goes "she's gone" are you going to go "NOPE, SHE ALIVE CAUSE JOKO."

    If I had any common sense, Yes.
    In other words: Taimi, ever since she is in existence, has discovered newer and newer things about dragons - the fact, that with all the evidence she has collected and the critical thinking the story has led us to believe she possesses, she couldn't think of this while pressing F(akest cry ever recorded in voice acting history), is baffling at best.

    No one would even have to be 100% certain that she could resurrect, they only had to pay minimum respect to her corpse. Easiest experiment in the history of Tyrian science.

    all primes work and not tearing down has value
    ready purrlayer @ any parsed feels enhance the value of something that is already worth everything
    what other chordal approach but penultimate singing along with other quantum cuddle clocks

  • Psientist.6437Psientist.6437 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 28, 2019

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Randulf.7614 said:

    @Eekasqueak.7850 said:

    @Psientist.6437 said:

    @Eekasqueak.7850 said:
    The resurrection doesn't bother me inherently because they wrote themselves into a corner with the death itself which IMO wasn't needed.

    Or was it? Aurene was not the same dragon after she resurrected. She may have discovered something while dead that set her on the path of revealing the true nature of The All. I wouldn't be surprised if her death and resurrection ended up being important plot points that they tried to camouflage with pretentious and unrealistic trauma drama and anguish kitten.

    I don't think they plan that far ahead.

    Correct. They plan one episode at a time. Her death and resurrection were not planned together for example but as events decided at the start of that episode.

    Not quite. They create a basic outline of the season at the beginning of writing it, but they don't (necessarily) create connections between events or how/why events occur.

    They knew they wanted to kill Aurene off fairly early on in the season, and thus they knew they'd bring her back. But it wasn't until they had gotten to writing Episode 6 that they had official thought process into how she comes back.

    That said, them planning in the beginning that her death was anything more than a kick for drama is pretty much nulled by their writing process. If they didn't even have plans to resurrect Aurene via Joko's magic when they had planned either event, then they're not likely gonna be planning ahead that her death was part of some grand plan or personal revelation. It was just a shock value in the end, and the reasons for her death being necessary plot-wise got tacted on afterwards.

    You could also interpret the story as the writers still trying to hide what happened to Aurene during her death. They had a panel discussion about using death as more than just a plot device. They are clearly self conscious about using death as a plot device. Perhaps she learned a new way to maintain the integrity of The All or a method to fast track the training of new Elder Dragons.

    Perhaps I am just resisting the idea that they killed Aurene just for pretentious shock value, but I also couldn't get all the way through the War Eternal guild chat because of all the unearned pretentiousness.

    all primes work and not tearing down has value
    ready purrlayer @ any parsed feels enhance the value of something that is already worth everything
    what other chordal approach but penultimate singing along with other quantum cuddle clocks

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Psientist.6437 said:
    You could also interpret the story as the writers still trying to hide what happened to Aurene during her death. They had a panel discussion about using death as more than just a plot device. They are clearly self conscious about using death as a plot device.

    If they truly were self-conscious about death as a plot device, they wouldn't have brought her back in the most contrived ways right away.

    Perhaps I am just resisting the idea that they killed Aurene just for pretentious shock value, but I also couldn't get all the way through the War Eternal guild chat because of all the unearned pretentiousness.

    Welcome to ArenaNet writers 101. I'm rather used to that pretentiousness that has existed since Season 1. Even with it exchanging hands, that attitude remains the same, which is very weird to me.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Psientist.6437Psientist.6437 Member ✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Psientist.6437 said:
    You could also interpret the story as the writers still trying to hide what happened to Aurene during her death. They had a panel discussion about using death as more than just a plot device. They are clearly self conscious about using death as a plot device.

    If they truly were self-conscious about death as a plot device, they wouldn't have brought her back in the most contrived ways right away.

    Perhaps I am just resisting the idea that they killed Aurene just for pretentious shock value, but I also couldn't get all the way through the War Eternal guild chat because of all the unearned pretentiousness.

    Welcome to ArenaNet writers 101. I'm rather used to that pretentiousness that has existed since Season 1. Even with it exchanging hands, that attitude remains the same, which is very weird to me.

    Because it is weird. They could have played her death and resurrection Tyrian straight, without gimmicks. Death and resurrection is a natural part of Tyria and the death and rebirth of dragons would be supernatural. I made it far enough into the guild chat to hear them describe Aurene as something never before seen in Tyria and the process of writing her resurrection. They had far less contrived stories for her resurrection, we didn't have to see Aurene as little miss just Joko-ing. It looks to me like the cover story camouflaging the plot device was flimsy but worked long enough and they wanted to get past it as quickly as possible. I am still convinced there is a major revelation about The All and magiphysics ahead and Aurene's existence changes the math of the dragon plot.

    Vlast was sacrificed to Balthazar's plot. His death did progress the plot but wasn't crucial. If there were such high demand for dragons he could have lived. Unless they've fully committed to stretching the dragon plot with gathering new dragons, then the benefit of Vlast's death has to be weighed against the cost of writing a new dragon into the story. Vlast also demonstrates that Elder dragon candidates can be reluctant. One of the ways Aurene is special is her willingness. The burden of being an Elder dragon must be intense, the risk to magical consciousness immense. It took 2 seasons to cultivate Aurene. You can't shorten that without decreasing the value of singularly valuable Aurene. From my perspective, the math doesn't predict the 6 Elder Dragon plot.

    Aurene's on a mission to reintegrate The All.

    A part of Arnenanet 101 is the pretentiousness common to innovators. It is the weirdness of Elon Musk rediscovering tunneling. The Tyrian story must be told as a game. I think you would need to give the writers more control of gamification (instances, battles etc.) to tell the lore well. That much control would insist on a perhaps unreachable level of plot planning. As well, the audience rejects many valuable and rational devices such as embodying another character. I do not underestimate how difficult plot planning is and hope my criticism isn't pretentious.

    all primes work and not tearing down has value
    ready purrlayer @ any parsed feels enhance the value of something that is already worth everything
    what other chordal approach but penultimate singing along with other quantum cuddle clocks

  • cptaylor.2670cptaylor.2670 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 28, 2019

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    My money's on Season 5 dealing with the fallout Kralkatorrik created by rampaging through the mists.

    I think we'll be getting 3 possibly 4 maps this season instead of 1 per episode, each new map will be in the mists rather than on the open world and they will be based on the 3 damaged god realms Kralkatorrik flew through.
    The Underworld.
    Fissure of Woe.
    And Melandru's Lost Domain.

    Main villain for season 5 could maybe be Menzies who might take advantage of Balthazars absense, his drained eternal forces which Balthzar had turned into forged and of all the chaos Kralkatorrik wrought to send his Shadow Army through to Tyria, the Underworld and Melandru's Lost Domain.

    If they didn’t do a mists map for this chunk of landmass that just fell out of a portal in the middle of the ocean straight from the mists, I’d bet they probably won’t do a map in the mists for anything else. The whole luring Kralk back to Tyria felt like kind of a clunky way to avoid having a map in the mists to begin with.

  • Poormany.4507Poormany.4507 Member ✭✭✭

    @cptaylor.2670 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    My money's on Season 5 dealing with the fallout Kralkatorrik created by rampaging through the mists.

    I think we'll be getting 3 possibly 4 maps this season instead of 1 per episode, each new map will be in the mists rather than on the open world and they will be based on the 3 damaged god realms Kralkatorrik flew through.
    The Underworld.
    Fissure of Woe.
    And Melandru's Lost Domain.

    Main villain for season 5 could maybe be Menzies who might take advantage of Balthazars absense, his drained eternal forces which Balthzar had turned into forged and of all the chaos Kralkatorrik wrought to send his Shadow Army through to Tyria, the Underworld and Melandru's Lost Domain.

    If they didn’t do a mists map for this chunk of landmass that just fell out of a portal in the middle of the ocean straight from the mists, I’d bet they probably won’t do a map in the mists for anything else. The whole luring Kralk back to Tyria felt like kind of a clunky way to avoid having a map in the mists to begin with.

    Yeah, I'm pretty sure they directly said at some point that there most likely won't be separate Mists maps due to technical problems with the implementation. We could, and probably will though, like in PoF and LWS4, have parts of the story be in the Mists, just not separate maps.

  • Randulf.7614Randulf.7614 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @cptaylor.2670 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    My money's on Season 5 dealing with the fallout Kralkatorrik created by rampaging through the mists.

    I think we'll be getting 3 possibly 4 maps this season instead of 1 per episode, each new map will be in the mists rather than on the open world and they will be based on the 3 damaged god realms Kralkatorrik flew through.
    The Underworld.
    Fissure of Woe.
    And Melandru's Lost Domain.

    Main villain for season 5 could maybe be Menzies who might take advantage of Balthazars absense, his drained eternal forces which Balthzar had turned into forged and of all the chaos Kralkatorrik wrought to send his Shadow Army through to Tyria, the Underworld and Melandru's Lost Domain.

    If they didn’t do a mists map for this chunk of landmass that just fell out of a portal in the middle of the ocean straight from the mists, I’d bet they probably won’t do a map in the mists for anything else. The whole luring Kralk back to Tyria felt like kind of a clunky way to avoid having a map in the mists to begin with.

    As per the above post to mine, they have a rule for no maps not part of the main works map

    What sleep is here? What dreams there are in the unctuous coiling of the snakes mortal shuffling. weapon in my hand. My hand the arcing deathblow at the end of all things. The horror. The horror. I embrace it. . .

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Psientist.6437 said:
    Because it is weird. They could have played her death and resurrection Tyrian straight, without gimmicks. Death and resurrection is a natural part of Tyria and the death and rebirth of dragons would be supernatural. I made it far enough into the guild chat to hear them describe Aurene as something never before seen in Tyria and the process of writing her resurrection. They had far less contrived stories for her resurrection, we didn't have to see Aurene as little miss just Joko-ing.

    And we go back to the whole "lack of pre-planning" and "not the best writing quality". They're pretty much admitted that, aside from a few kernals here and there to serve as lead-ins to future plots 10 years down the line, they don't really think ahead for their writing, and only make connections to past content retroactively. That's literally what they did with Aurene's death and resurrection. They killed her and planned for her resurrection with zero thought into how to bring her back realistically. They brought her back immediately because "everyone knew it would happen" - which is the worst bloody excuse anyone could make to explain bad pacing in storytelling - and they wanted "to get to the action right away".

    It feels contrived and poorly planned because it is. At least in part, and the resurrection of Aurene is definitely included in that part.

    And the whole thing about Aurene being "first of her kind" is just referring to her being an Elder Dragon with a connection to mortals and being able to withstand magics that would be conflicting and harmful in others.

    Vlast was sacrificed to Balthazar's plot. His death did progress the plot but wasn't crucial. If there were such high demand for dragons he could have lived. Unless they've fully committed to stretching the dragon plot with gathering new dragons, then the benefit of Vlast's death has to be weighed against the cost of writing a new dragon into the story.

    They killed off Vlast pretty much solely so that they could have Aurene in a place of danger and in position to absorb some of the magic that Kralkatorrik let out, so that they could force grow her. They knowingly and willingly killed off Vlast before we could get to know him - as they explained in one Guild Chat (or was it a reddit AMA? Maybe both), his immediate death and learning about him from the memory crystals was meant to be a story of loss and "what could have been".

    They didn't kill him because the plot doesn't demand for more ED replacements.

    It took 2 seasons to cultivate Aurene. You can't shorten that without decreasing the value of singularly valuable Aurene. From my perspective, the math doesn't predict the 6 Elder Dragon plot.

    Sure it can be done. Either having others besides the Commander do the raising and thus allow the writers to put a character who's attached to the candidate on the proverbial bus (something they do frequently for half the main cast at a time ever since S3), or explain it away with a "we've done it once now we're used to it". But I would hope for the former, since 1) it'd expand the importance to other characters and not make the Commander an End-All-Be-All figure; and 2) it'd reduce repeating the same plot again, and again, and again.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Mikali.9651Mikali.9651 Member ✭✭✭

    @Psientist.6437 said:
    Aurene's too young to be tied down with a family. She deserves the chance to travel and explore herself. Besides, if there is anything that will plant the Torment in her soul, it would be raising 5 kids as a single mother.

    you want her to do what it is advised to young women today so they become single post 30 years old women staying alone with cats? not good advice.

  • MithranArkanere.8957MithranArkanere.8957 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I'm sure Aurene can't handle all that magic alone, but I'm not sure she'll make babies to deal with it.

    It would be more fun to go out and explore, and have the priory and whispers get us some leads to investigate possible alternatives to replace the other elder dragons.

    More focus on exploration, mystery, wonder and going into The Great Unknown and less on dragon killing for a while.

  • Psientist.6437Psientist.6437 Member ✭✭✭

    @Mikali.9651 said:

    @Psientist.6437 said:
    Aurene's too young to be tied down with a family. She deserves the chance to travel and explore herself. Besides, if there is anything that will plant the Torment in her soul, it would be raising 5 kids as a single mother.

    you want her to do what it is advised to young women today so they become single post 30 years old women staying alone with cats? not good advice.

    You've convinced me! Aurene and all woman should stay focused on childbirth and their men, I mean husbands. If Aurene has children, she better be married. Obviously, the Commander will give her away but if the player doesn't have a male character will they have to make a male character?

    all primes work and not tearing down has value
    ready purrlayer @ any parsed feels enhance the value of something that is already worth everything
    what other chordal approach but penultimate singing along with other quantum cuddle clocks

  • Kalavier.1097Kalavier.1097 Member ✭✭✭

    @Psientist.6437 said:

    @Kalavier.1097 said:

    @Psientist.6437 said:
    Thank you for the link, I loved this part: "The name itself is a Dead Unicorn Trope as few writers are willing to literally use a Crystal Dragon"
    Aurene's death and resurection was poorly handled. All of those Tyrians who loved Aurene, fought beside her, knew she had eaten a Lich but for some reason forget they live in Tyria and spend days moping around her impaled body. The way the studio tried to sell this scenario was pretentious.

    A: Joko bounced back up near-instantly, Aurene did not.
    B: Nobody knew if Joko had an artifact keeping him alive somewhere or the magic was within himself. Most people saw and reacted to Aurene eating a mummy, not going "Aha, she's consuming his magic and gaining it!"
    C: Emotions. When people get very emotional, they may not think rationally. The commander an Aurene both saw her not moving, appearing dead, and Caithe's crystal blooms that came from a connection to Aurene fade away. Caithe couldn't hear Aurene or feel her emotions/thoughts anymore.

    If the person who literally is hearing the thoughts of Aurene and has an intense connection with the dragon goes "she's gone" are you going to go "NOPE, SHE ALIVE CAUSE JOKO."

    I think these are nonsense answers based on the tricks the writers used to sell the scenario to players. The tricks only work if we assume Tyrians know as little about their world as we do, as though they are just visiting as well. Which is ridiculous.

    Within the first five minutes the Commander or someone else would be looking for any witnesses to what happened. Did anyone see Aurene's magic leave her body? Did any Asuran devices pick up her magic leaving her body. Was there any sign of her magic reaching the other Elder Dragons? There would be plenty of devices and people watching them.

    How do soldiers react to the death of their comrades? They get very emotional but they never leave corpses impaled on spikes for days. Tyrians would have had Aurene back alive within minutes. They wouldn't need to prove to themselves that Joko's magic lived on in her, they would have hoped and acted.

    How are they nonsense answers? Again, literally nobody knew how Joko kept himself immortal. Hell even Turai Ossa resorted to literally shoving the lich under a boulder and sealing it up. As for the other part, We read in Rytlock's requiem that Caithe and the Commander basically sat next to Aurene after the battle and didn't move much at all. The commander eventually left and was wandering Lion's Arch when Caithe called them. We know it was a span of several days.

    There was no Witnesses, as literally everybody around during the final blast was a fair bit above that level, and the closest ballista setup was totally branded with most everybody there dead, trapped, or wounded. People got down to Aurene as the commander stumbled out of where they got blasted through a cave wall.

    So nobody would've seen the magic (Note, when Kralk died and Aurene absorbed his magic there was no explosion because she was right there. They could've assumed Kralk instantly devoured the magic.) leave because everybody had been a fair distance away from Aurene and Kralk's mouth was literally a throw away from her. Asura devices may have picked it up, but I highly doubt anybody was actively keeping an eye on their scanners when they saw Kralk suddenly rear up and roar. Assuming Gorrik and Taimi were in the forge area itself (reasonable as it's where a bunch of Asura tech had already been setup), I assume they probably evacuated before the final blast happened, or when Kralk started branding that section of the cave with the last ballista set, and commander attacking his eye.

    As far as we know, Gorrik and Taimi (the two experts on this stuff) were the ones watching the devices, and rushed down. With Kralk instantly retreating to the mists to feed and escape, they could've seen a spike/raise in his magic and assumed it was Aurene. Cause you know, The person who was mentally linked to Aurene was shown losing her crystal flowers (from Aurene) and completely unable to hear the thoughts of the dragon, saying "She's gone."

    And soldiers do try to bury their dead, yes. But I'm pretty sure everybody backed off from the Commander and Caithe in their grieving, and/or focused on cleanup, search and rescue, and burying the dead of the Pact. Aurene was far from the only death that happened during that battle. IIRC there is dialogue about how the Dredge dug Almorra out of the rubble where she got completely buried.

    There is also the situation of while Aurene may have been dead and impaled, and the commander and Caithe sitting there, branded may have been active in Thunderhead Keep and it's tunnels around.

    "They wouldn't need to prove that Joko's magic lived in her, they would've hoped and acted." Again, we saw Joko bounce back up instantly, actively triggering a trap as he was still stuck on the ground. Caithe, who was again, directly linked to Aurene said she was gone. Who would try to challenge the two people who had a mental link to Aurene and go "No, She must be alive because she ate Joko!"

    As Konig said... > @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    Don't forget D: Until that moment, Aurene and the Elder Dragons only gained new powers from consuming magic from dead Elder Dragons and demigods, and Joko was neither.

    Honestly, Aurene becoming immortal because of Joko's magic makes less sense than people believing she'd become immortal because of Joko's magic.

    Another reason to find ^ improbable, from an in-universe showing. The Awoken showed zero link to Aurene, and She showed zero connection to them. She did nothing concerning undead (She only appeared to use some visions, and breathed fire as abilities are concerned). So, viewing it entirely from the eyes of the pact and people of Tyria, they had little reason to think she had gained anything from devouring Joko beyond an upset stomach, but had destroyed whatever kept Joko immortal.

  • Psientist.6437Psientist.6437 Member ✭✭✭

    @Kalavier.1097 said:

    @Psientist.6437 said:

    @Kalavier.1097 said:

    @Psientist.6437 said:
    Thank you for the link, I loved this part: "The name itself is a Dead Unicorn Trope as few writers are willing to literally use a Crystal Dragon"
    Aurene's death and resurection was poorly handled. All of those Tyrians who loved Aurene, fought beside her, knew she had eaten a Lich but for some reason forget they live in Tyria and spend days moping around her impaled body. The way the studio tried to sell this scenario was pretentious.

    A: Joko bounced back up near-instantly, Aurene did not.
    B: Nobody knew if Joko had an artifact keeping him alive somewhere or the magic was within himself. Most people saw and reacted to Aurene eating a mummy, not going "Aha, she's consuming his magic and gaining it!"
    C: Emotions. When people get very emotional, they may not think rationally. The commander an Aurene both saw her not moving, appearing dead, and Caithe's crystal blooms that came from a connection to Aurene fade away. Caithe couldn't hear Aurene or feel her emotions/thoughts anymore.

    If the person who literally is hearing the thoughts of Aurene and has an intense connection with the dragon goes "she's gone" are you going to go "NOPE, SHE ALIVE CAUSE JOKO."

    I think these are nonsense answers based on the tricks the writers used to sell the scenario to players. The tricks only work if we assume Tyrians know as little about their world as we do, as though they are just visiting as well. Which is ridiculous.

    Within the first five minutes the Commander or someone else would be looking for any witnesses to what happened. Did anyone see Aurene's magic leave her body? Did any Asuran devices pick up her magic leaving her body. Was there any sign of her magic reaching the other Elder Dragons? There would be plenty of devices and people watching them.

    How do soldiers react to the death of their comrades? They get very emotional but they never leave corpses impaled on spikes for days. Tyrians would have had Aurene back alive within minutes. They wouldn't need to prove to themselves that Joko's magic lived on in her, they would have hoped and acted.

    How are they nonsense answers? Again, literally nobody knew how Joko kept himself immortal. Hell even Turai Ossa resorted to literally shoving the lich under a boulder and sealing it up. As for the other part, We read in Rytlock's requiem that Caithe and the Commander basically sat next to Aurene after the battle and didn't move much at all. The commander eventually left and was wandering Lion's Arch when Caithe called them. We know it was a span of several days.

    There was no Witnesses, as literally everybody around during the final blast was a fair bit above that level, and the closest ballista setup was totally branded with most everybody there dead, trapped, or wounded. People got down to Aurene as the commander stumbled out of where they got blasted through a cave wall.

    So nobody would've seen the magic (Note, when Kralk died and Aurene absorbed his magic there was no explosion because she was right there. They could've assumed Kralk instantly devoured the magic.) leave because everybody had been a fair distance away from Aurene and Kralk's mouth was literally a throw away from her. Asura devices may have picked it up, but I highly doubt anybody was actively keeping an eye on their scanners when they saw Kralk suddenly rear up and roar. Assuming Gorrik and Taimi were in the forge area itself (reasonable as it's where a bunch of Asura tech had already been setup), I assume they probably evacuated before the final blast happened, or when Kralk started branding that section of the cave with the last ballista set, and commander attacking his eye.

    As far as we know, Gorrik and Taimi (the two experts on this stuff) were the ones watching the devices, and rushed down. With Kralk instantly retreating to the mists to feed and escape, they could've seen a spike/raise in his magic and assumed it was Aurene. Cause you know, The person who was mentally linked to Aurene was shown losing her crystal flowers (from Aurene) and completely unable to hear the thoughts of the dragon, saying "She's gone."

    And soldiers do try to bury their dead, yes. But I'm pretty sure everybody backed off from the Commander and Caithe in their grieving, and/or focused on cleanup, search and rescue, and burying the dead of the Pact. Aurene was far from the only death that happened during that battle. IIRC there is dialogue about how the Dredge dug Almorra out of the rubble where she got completely buried.

    There is also the situation of while Aurene may have been dead and impaled, and the commander and Caithe sitting there, branded may have been active in Thunderhead Keep and it's tunnels around.

    "They wouldn't need to prove that Joko's magic lived in her, they would've hoped and acted." Again, we saw Joko bounce back up instantly, actively triggering a trap as he was still stuck on the ground. Caithe, who was again, directly linked to Aurene said she was gone. Who would try to challenge the two people who had a mental link to Aurene and go "No, She must be alive because she ate Joko!"

    As Konig said... > @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    Don't forget D: Until that moment, Aurene and the Elder Dragons only gained new powers from consuming magic from dead Elder Dragons and demigods, and Joko was neither.

    Honestly, Aurene becoming immortal because of Joko's magic makes less sense than people believing she'd become immortal because of Joko's magic.

    Another reason to find ^ improbable, from an in-universe showing. The Awoken showed zero link to Aurene, and She showed zero connection to them. She did nothing concerning undead (She only appeared to use some visions, and breathed fire as abilities are concerned). So, viewing it entirely from the eyes of the pact and people of Tyria, they had little reason to think she had gained anything from devouring Joko beyond an upset stomach, but had destroyed whatever kept Joko immortal.

    I am at once sorry for calling your ideas nonsense and willing to call these new ones flimsy.
    Asuran magitech goes from being able to track dragon energy and general competence to being incompetent.
    Caithe proves her poor judgement but everyone is convinced by a bond that has only existed for an hour.
    The world is ending but everyone respects Caithe and the Commander as they cover Aurene defiled corpse with tears and snot for days.
    Tyrian history describes the constant evolution of magi-physiology but everyone has the same rigid approach to magi-physiology offered by Konig.
    They forget that, with Aurene, they have been building a new magi-physiology and faced with the destruction of the world aren't willing to gamble. The only thing they would have to wager is paying the least amount of respect to her body.

    You are right, the studio can build a scenario with flimsy coincidences that require infantalising every character.

    all primes work and not tearing down has value
    ready purrlayer @ any parsed feels enhance the value of something that is already worth everything
    what other chordal approach but penultimate singing along with other quantum cuddle clocks

  • Kalavier.1097Kalavier.1097 Member ✭✭✭

    @Psientist.6437 said:
    I am at once sorry for calling your ideas nonsense and willing to call these new ones flimsy.
    Asuran magitech goes from being able to track dragon energy and general competence to being incompetent.
    Caithe proves her poor judgement but everyone is convinced by a bond that has only existed for an hour.
    The world is ending but everyone respects Caithe and the Commander as they cover Aurene defiled corpse with tears and snot for days.
    Tyrian history describes the constant evolution of magi-physiology but everyone has the same rigid approach to magi-physiology offered by Konig.
    They forget that, with Aurene, they have been building a new magi-physiology and faced with the destruction of the world aren't willing to gamble. The only thing they would have to wager is paying the least amount of respect to her body.

    You are right, the studio can build a scenario with flimsy coincidences that require infantalising every character.

    It continued to track Kralkatorrik, but a sensor does nothing when nobody is looking at it.

    Caithe's judgement may or may not be solid all the time, but the core group immediately notice the magical adornments on her body that literally came from Aurene fade away, as Caithe mentions that Aurene is gone.

    It's a noted point, especially in the intro of War Eternal, that pretty much everybody in the Pact, knowing Aurene was the key to victory and without her there would be no defeating of Kralk without destroying the world, had sat back and decided to camp about and clean up the area/rest and heal. The Requiems establish Rytlock, Zafirah, and Caithe all accepting that the world could end soon, and at that point they had no way to stop it. Surely you've seen the cases were a grieving person has to literally be dragged away from the corpse of a loved one. Who wants to be the person to literally wrestle the commander away? Also, some could have thought the branded crystals impaling Aurene had partially branded and fused to her, which means breaking those crystals could break apart her.

    I'm unsure what you mean by that, but if it's about Joko I'd point out people could've easily assumed Aurene's devouring of the Lich simply severed his magical link to an artifact keeping him alive. Aurene first absorbed magic from Mordremoth, but showed little use of those abilities. She's only shown foresight, breathing fire, and much later after absorbing more magic, "branding"
    Aurene_Episode_6.jpg

    If you look at her body, the crystals on her body are totally purple, like brand crystals, and her body has turned almost stone-like in coloration. Infact, the one crystal Caithe pulls out is the loose crystal in her side, which causes the magic to surge and the commander's connection to reform, allowing the commander (with Zephyrite help) to smash all the other crystals.

    To be perhaps a bit too much, you don't hold a funeral the day of somebody's death. Even tragedies IRL you have funeral preperations done at a later time. The difference is that Aurene's body isn't going to rot, and isn't going to move. Relief efforts could focus on saving living people throughout the tunnels, and taking out branded still there.

  • Psientist.6437Psientist.6437 Member ✭✭✭

    @Kalavier.1097 said:

    @Psientist.6437 said:
    I am at once sorry for calling your ideas nonsense and willing to call these new ones flimsy.
    Asuran magitech goes from being able to track dragon energy and general competence to being incompetent.
    Caithe proves her poor judgement but everyone is convinced by a bond that has only existed for an hour.
    The world is ending but everyone respects Caithe and the Commander as they cover Aurene defiled corpse with tears and snot for days.
    Tyrian history describes the constant evolution of magi-physiology but everyone has the same rigid approach to magi-physiology offered by Konig.
    They forget that, with Aurene, they have been building a new magi-physiology and faced with the destruction of the world aren't willing to gamble. The only thing they would have to wager is paying the least amount of respect to her body.

    You are right, the studio can build a scenario with flimsy coincidences that require infantalising every character.

    It continued to track Kralkatorrik, but a sensor does nothing when nobody is looking at it.

    Caithe's judgement may or may not be solid all the time, but the core group immediately notice the magical adornments on her body that literally came from Aurene fade away, as Caithe mentions that Aurene is gone.

    It's a noted point, especially in the intro of War Eternal, that pretty much everybody in the Pact, knowing Aurene was the key to victory and without her there would be no defeating of Kralk without destroying the world, had sat back and decided to camp about and clean up the area/rest and heal. The Requiems establish Rytlock, Zafirah, and Caithe all accepting that the world could end soon, and at that point they had no way to stop it. Surely you've seen the cases were a grieving person has to literally be dragged away from the corpse of a loved one. Who wants to be the person to literally wrestle the commander away? Also, some could have thought the branded crystals impaling Aurene had partially branded and fused to her, which means breaking those crystals could break apart her.

    I'm unsure what you mean by that, but if it's about Joko I'd point out people could've easily assumed Aurene's devouring of the Lich simply severed his magical link to an artifact keeping him alive. Aurene first absorbed magic from Mordremoth, but showed little use of those abilities. She's only shown foresight, breathing fire, and much later after absorbing more magic, "branding"
    Aurene_Episode_6.jpg

    If you look at her body, the crystals on her body are totally purple, like brand crystals, and her body has turned almost stone-like in coloration. Infact, the one crystal Caithe pulls out is the loose crystal in her side, which causes the magic to surge and the commander's connection to reform, allowing the commander (with Zephyrite help) to smash all the other crystals.

    To be perhaps a bit too much, you don't hold a funeral the day of somebody's death. Even tragedies IRL you have funeral preperations done at a later time. The difference is that Aurene's body isn't going to rot, and isn't going to move. Relief efforts could focus on saving living people throughout the tunnels, and taking out branded still there.

    You liked the scenario and found it convincing. I did not. Objectively, though, the scenario depended on a lot of just-so coincidences, a fragile foundation for so much emotion. Imho, resolving all that emotion with a coy joke verges on gross.

    I have a no pressure question for you. If the Earth were going to be destroyed, would you need to be 100% certain of your plan to save the Earth to attempt your plan? At what percentage of certainty would you give up and do nothing?

    all primes work and not tearing down has value
    ready purrlayer @ any parsed feels enhance the value of something that is already worth everything
    what other chordal approach but penultimate singing along with other quantum cuddle clocks

  • EmmetOtter.8542EmmetOtter.8542 Member ✭✭✭

    @Arden.7480 said:
    Aurene is going to have little baby dragons,

    Dragons. Dragons. And more Dragons.
    It's been done. I would rather see something not Dragon related.

    I would be all for turning a bunch of bad guys into anti heroes. Where we work with the Inquest, Fire Legion, Nightmare Court, etc.. to destroy a common enemy that the bad guys may have inadvertantly created

    Like if the Inquest got their hands on the Infinity Ball and unleashed a version of "alternate us" onto the world that aren't necessarily evil but, extremely radicalized and decide to go on a rampage to purge our world of what these "alt us" see as impure.

  • Arden.7480Arden.7480 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @EmmetOtter.8542 said:

    @Arden.7480 said:
    Aurene is going to have little baby dragons,

    Dragons. Dragons. And more Dragons.
    It's been done. I would rather see something not Dragon related.

    I would be all for turning a bunch of bad guys into anti heroes. Where we work with the Inquest, Fire Legion, Nightmare Court, etc.. to destroy a common enemy that the bad guys may have inadvertantly created

    Like if the Inquest got their hands on the Infinity Ball and unleashed a version of "alternate us" onto the world that aren't necessarily evil but, extremely radicalized and decide to go on a rampage to purge our world of what these "alt us" see as impure.

    This was a joke post. I actually meant: "I pray to Balshashar that it won't happen!" :D

    We will kill another dragon in 3 years, so don't worry.

    The wound is the place where the Light enters you ~Stephane Lo Presti

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