Most sought after role for third e-spec? — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Most sought after role for third e-spec?

Arheundel.6451Arheundel.6451 Member ✭✭✭✭
edited June 23, 2019 in Elementalist

What role would you like to see covered from a third e-spec? Below it's a set of roles which I think ele still miss and would definitely benefit from, if somebody want to propose an additional role, do so possibly with some reasoning.

900 range support/burst is already covered by scepter
Melee burst PBAoE covered by sword-d/d
1200 AoE range burst/support covered by staff

I really feel like ele should have had access to single target 1200 range since launch, focusing on damage avoidance rather than heal tanking would solve loads of issues while opening many doors . A single target burst from 1200 range should not be plagued by after cast and delays like it is for staff, its non-AoE nature would justify the addition of fast cast and lack of rooting animations

-A wise man once said- "Fight cheese with cheese or be cheesed in return, mind not those who will accuse you of being a cheese as they like cheese themselves"

Most sought after role for third e-spec? 43 votes

Single burst 1200 range ( 80-90% of skills would be single target while the traitline would be entirely single target focused, no support options)
81%
Nitrosiili.5628BunjiKugashira.9754ZerOGenerations.5360Dahir.4158lLobo.7960Arheundel.6451kroof.5468Conqueror.3682draxynnic.3719Amaranthe.3578hugo.4705Qori.9671otto.5684Knuckle Joe.7408MyPuppy.8970Yannir.4132steki.1478Dalo.3941Stallic.2397leunamsil.6742 35 votes
Melee tank CC - PBAoE + teleports to targets ( this would require some work to avoid unkillable healbots but still retain praiseworthy level of selfsustain)
18%
Mini Crinny.6190Blood Red Arachnid.2493Knighthonor.4061Voltekka.2375len.7809Zitronenalien.4532necromaniac.7629Ultramex.1506 8 votes

Comments

  • Stand The Wall.6987Stand The Wall.6987 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I want a 2 handed mid range weapon

    Te lazla otstra.

  • hugo.4705hugo.4705 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Single burst 1200 range ( 80-90% of skills would be single target while the traitline would be entirely single target focused, no support options)

    For once, a very powerful rifle/longbow.

    +++In creative mood. New Engie Elite spec' , Housing , New asuran expansion , Designing a new lounge , New GameMode
    +++NEW: AEP Asuran Expansion Project available on WIKI.
    +++New: GEM GW2 Exploration Map: Discover unusual places around tyria: Here (OSM map)

  • steki.1478steki.1478 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Single burst 1200 range ( 80-90% of skills would be single target while the traitline would be entirely single target focused, no support options)

    Longbow arcanist that doesnt change attuning and adds 5th element (arcane) which works the same way like druid's CA, but instead of healing it charges on critical strikes, boon application and boon stealing (which it gets from traits and some weapon skills/utilities).

    Arcane form skills will always crit like arcane utilities (and would preferably change based on equipped weapon) and will benefit from arcane GM trait (ferocity buff would be shorter though).

    Deso's favorite FROG
    Master of afk and kiting
    The God of Pips and Gud Deeps
    Froggo himself

  • Yeah, I'd really like a 2-handed weapon. Greatsword, longbow, or hammer. I'd like a permanent fiery greatsword ... but I think elementalist hammer would be badassssss.

    | Solemn [DoM][PAL][BOZ][shrd] |
    | NSP (main) | Anvil Rock (alt)

  • Jski.6180Jski.6180 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Boon control not important how.

    See ELE forms and you will get my views.

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Single burst 1200 range ( 80-90% of skills would be single target while the traitline would be entirely single target focused, no support options)

    Elementalist has already had two elite specs oriented towards enhancing their close-range capabilities (tempest through the mechanic, weaver through their weapon). I think it makes sense to go for something long-range before pushing for a third.

    Rifle would probably make for a suitable weapon option - there are quite a few elemental-themed rifle skins available (mostly based off asura magitech environmental weapons) that don't really fit for the relatively mundane rifle use of warriors, elementalists, and deadeyes, but which would fit perfectly for a magitech-themed elementalist.

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭

    The best option would probably be an e-spec that allow some ease for both melee and range either throught a weapon that find it's range/melee versatility based on the attunment or through a "stance profession mechanism" (F5) that change the AA of the elementalist's weapons.

  • MyPuppy.8970MyPuppy.8970 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 24, 2019
    Single burst 1200 range ( 80-90% of skills would be single target while the traitline would be entirely single target focused, no support options)

    Fire Long Range (900-1200), and Air very long range(1200+), Water Short range(~360), and Earth close-mid range (300-900). And please, enough with fire burns, water heals, and air for cc. I want to dps no matter the attunement, just different utilities. There could be something that dispells enemy aoe/traps for instance.

  • lLobo.7960lLobo.7960 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 25, 2019
    Single burst 1200 range ( 80-90% of skills would be single target while the traitline would be entirely single target focused, no support options)

    Offense/defense/burst and control are defined by the attunements.
    Tempest focus on area effects, group support and staying longer on attunements
    Weaver focus on dueling (selfish spec with barrier, evades, etc) and juggling attunements (powerful effects and skills to fast swap attunements)
    So now we need an elite spec that changes the attunements function (without making them longer or shorter)

    Regarding weapon, we definitely need longbow/rifle for a long-range (1200-1500) fast-attacking single-targeting (piercing) option. Everything else is mostly covered.
    Daggers are short-range, fast cast PBAoE
    Scepter is mid-range,
    Staff is long-range, slow cast AoE

    Now, if the spec will be dps or bunker it really depends on the interactions with the core lines.
    And the core lines need some serious rework to make them more viable on themselves and even with tempest and weaver.
    Tempest can only be a defensive buffer because the core lines can't provide any important buffs in any viable sense for PvE (might and fury with blasting fire fields?) and the aura share trait (the one thing used to share most of the elementalist buffs) is stuck in water, forcing tempest on a defensive traitline.

  • Single burst 1200 range => 85%
    Melee tank CC - PBAoE + teleports to targets => 15%

    Why am I sure, that with such a result, the next spec will be melee ?

  • Ganathar.4956Ganathar.4956 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 25, 2019

    @scureuil.4052 said:
    Single burst 1200 range => 85%
    Melee tank CC - PBAoE + teleports to targets => 15%

    Why am I sure, that with such a result, the next spec will be melee ?

    Because Anet love to make only melee specs for a profession that they claim is designed for ranged damage. Imo after tempest and weaver there should never be a spec that is focused on melee again. The only exception would be if they made a 2h weapon that has half the attunements as melee and the other half as 1200 range, with no profession mechanics that favor melee. But that is not truly melee focused anyway.

  • Noodle Ant.1605Noodle Ant.1605 Member ✭✭✭

    From a PvE perspective, a single target weapon sounds horrible to use, unless it’s inherently broken in terms of putting down mobs w/ minimal might, fury & quickness (which might probably mean it would be broken in PvP too), otherwise it’ll become the next DH or ranger LB. Besides, I feel like tempest sc/w is single target enough since a chunk of its dmg comes from lightning orb and lightning strike, and upon removing tempest + warhorn, the scepter looks fairly single target itself in terms of garbage AA. Weaver reinforces this idea by supplying additional single target #3 skills.

    Tempest’s supposed mechanic - overloads, never had to be melee, but anet’s push to make the spec focus on auras unfortunately meant that either the spec was destined to be melee since auras only work ‘on hit’, the traitline ran out of space for overload-modifying traits, or the overload mechanic was so last-minute they just went with whatever they had on release day and never looked back to change it ever again. A rehaul of the traitline could be used, and one trait that could make the whole difference is one that makes overloads ranged, centering itself on the target for half the cast time and locking itself in place until the end of cast (similar to two-layered telegraph bomb mechanic already found in fracs and raids). Mechanical tradeoffs can be introduced using LoS, and being intelligently placed to compete with the trait that gives overloads stability.

    So hypothetically, the ranged single target weapon and a espec to compliment it that is so desired could born from an outdated weapon we already have, after a well-thought and probably much needed rework. Otherwise, we’re gonna get a weapon that suffers from the traditional issue of being useless in PvE, or completely overshadows the rest of the ele’s weapon choices (i.e. sword).

    pChrono (main), cWeaver and pReaper. An asura who likes snowflakes.

  • steki.1478steki.1478 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Single burst 1200 range ( 80-90% of skills would be single target while the traitline would be entirely single target focused, no support options)

    @Noodle Ant.1605 said:
    From a PvE perspective, a single target weapon sounds horrible to use, unless it’s inherently broken in terms of putting down mobs w/ minimal might, fury & quickness (which might probably mean it would be broken in PvP too), otherwise it’ll become the next DH or ranger LB. Besides, I feel like tempest sc/w is single target enough since a chunk of its dmg comes from lightning orb and lightning strike, and upon removing tempest + warhorn, the scepter looks fairly single target itself in terms of garbage AA. Weaver reinforces this idea by supplying additional single target #3 skills.

    Tempest’s supposed mechanic - overloads, never had to be melee, but anet’s push to make the spec focus on auras unfortunately meant that either the spec was destined to be melee since auras only work ‘on hit’, the traitline ran out of space for overload-modifying traits, or the overload mechanic was so last-minute they just went with whatever they had on release day and never looked back to change it ever again. A rehaul of the traitline could be used, and one trait that could make the whole difference is one that makes overloads ranged, centering itself on the target for half the cast time and locking itself in place until the end of cast (similar to two-layered telegraph bomb mechanic already found in fracs and raids). Mechanical tradeoffs can be introduced using LoS, and being intelligently placed to compete with the trait that gives overloads stability.

    So hypothetically, the ranged single target weapon and a espec to compliment it that is so desired could born from an outdated weapon we already have, after a well-thought and probably much needed rework. Otherwise, we’re gonna get a weapon that suffers from the traditional issue of being useless in PvE, or completely overshadows the rest of the ele’s weapon choices (i.e. sword).

    Ele doesnt even need pve specs anymore, it needs something reliable for pvp/wvw.

    Tempest used to be top dmg class but got nerfed because weaver also fulfills that role. Single targt spec will only have high burst, but its dps would be mediocre so it doesnt compete with dps weaver builds at all. Support shouldnt even need to be discussed, and there's no other play style that ele lacks.

    Deso's favorite FROG
    Master of afk and kiting
    The God of Pips and Gud Deeps
    Froggo himself

  • Noodle Ant.1605Noodle Ant.1605 Member ✭✭✭

    @steki.1478 said:

    @Noodle Ant.1605 said:
    From a PvE perspective, a single target weapon sounds horrible to use, unless it’s inherently broken in terms of putting down mobs w/ minimal might, fury & quickness (which might probably mean it would be broken in PvP too), otherwise it’ll become the next DH or ranger LB. Besides, I feel like tempest sc/w is single target enough since a chunk of its dmg comes from lightning orb and lightning strike, and upon removing tempest + warhorn, the scepter looks fairly single target itself in terms of garbage AA. Weaver reinforces this idea by supplying additional single target #3 skills.

    Tempest’s supposed mechanic - overloads, never had to be melee, but anet’s push to make the spec focus on auras unfortunately meant that either the spec was destined to be melee since auras only work ‘on hit’, the traitline ran out of space for overload-modifying traits, or the overload mechanic was so last-minute they just went with whatever they had on release day and never looked back to change it ever again. A rehaul of the traitline could be used, and one trait that could make the whole difference is one that makes overloads ranged, centering itself on the target for half the cast time and locking itself in place until the end of cast (similar to two-layered telegraph bomb mechanic already found in fracs and raids). Mechanical tradeoffs can be introduced using LoS, and being intelligently placed to compete with the trait that gives overloads stability.

    So hypothetically, the ranged single target weapon and a espec to compliment it that is so desired could born from an outdated weapon we already have, after a well-thought and probably much needed rework. Otherwise, we’re gonna get a weapon that suffers from the traditional issue of being useless in PvE, or completely overshadows the rest of the ele’s weapon choices (i.e. sword).

    Ele doesnt even need pve specs anymore, it needs something reliable for pvp/wvw.

    Tempest used to be top dmg class but got nerfed because weaver also fulfills that role. Single targt spec will only have high burst, but its dps would be mediocre so it doesnt compete with dps weaver builds at all. Support shouldnt even need to be discussed, and there's no other play style that ele lacks.

    I’m not arguing against the need for a new, fresh (and maybe PvP/WvW-reliable) espec; I’m just pointing out from my perspective that the push for a new single target ranged weapon seems largely unnecessary while scepter exists. I believe the weapon is held back by the ‘outdatedness’ that seems to plague the entirety of core ele, and could be refined further to fulfil the defined role single target burst (which it kinda tries to do already on FA burst builds), without restricting it to an espec. For a new weapon, long range I can agree on, but why restrict it to single target (even more so when discussing WvW)? The AAs could look like piercing/exploding Scorchrazors while AoEs just need to be ‘one-hit’ and ‘on-cast’ like Grasping Dead or Mind Spike, not lingering or delayed like the ones we have now.

    My reference to tempest was purely a suggestion to shift it from being a ‘melee’ oriented espec mechanic to something more in line with ele’s profession description of being ‘ranged’. I didn’t make any suggestions to try to increase its PvE dps, and even then I don’t really believe in the singular ‘dps espec’ philosophy anyway (cuz imo weaver is the ‘condi espec’, which sounds just as far fetched).

    If ele needs especs to carry its behind through PvP, we might need to address core problems first, rather than pretending that they don’t exist by covering it with a shiny new espec that hides all those flaws. This doesn’t apply only to ele; many future especs could be easily made provided that the core class is fairly strong by itself, but anet apparently intends to deal with this in a possibly more convoluted way (see ‘tradeoffs’ for druid and daredevil).

    pChrono (main), cWeaver and pReaper. An asura who likes snowflakes.

  • steki.1478steki.1478 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Single burst 1200 range ( 80-90% of skills would be single target while the traitline would be entirely single target focused, no support options)

    @Noodle Ant.1605 said:

    @steki.1478 said:

    @Noodle Ant.1605 said:
    From a PvE perspective, a single target weapon sounds horrible to use, unless it’s inherently broken in terms of putting down mobs w/ minimal might, fury & quickness (which might probably mean it would be broken in PvP too), otherwise it’ll become the next DH or ranger LB. Besides, I feel like tempest sc/w is single target enough since a chunk of its dmg comes from lightning orb and lightning strike, and upon removing tempest + warhorn, the scepter looks fairly single target itself in terms of garbage AA. Weaver reinforces this idea by supplying additional single target #3 skills.

    Tempest’s supposed mechanic - overloads, never had to be melee, but anet’s push to make the spec focus on auras unfortunately meant that either the spec was destined to be melee since auras only work ‘on hit’, the traitline ran out of space for overload-modifying traits, or the overload mechanic was so last-minute they just went with whatever they had on release day and never looked back to change it ever again. A rehaul of the traitline could be used, and one trait that could make the whole difference is one that makes overloads ranged, centering itself on the target for half the cast time and locking itself in place until the end of cast (similar to two-layered telegraph bomb mechanic already found in fracs and raids). Mechanical tradeoffs can be introduced using LoS, and being intelligently placed to compete with the trait that gives overloads stability.

    So hypothetically, the ranged single target weapon and a espec to compliment it that is so desired could born from an outdated weapon we already have, after a well-thought and probably much needed rework. Otherwise, we’re gonna get a weapon that suffers from the traditional issue of being useless in PvE, or completely overshadows the rest of the ele’s weapon choices (i.e. sword).

    Ele doesnt even need pve specs anymore, it needs something reliable for pvp/wvw.

    Tempest used to be top dmg class but got nerfed because weaver also fulfills that role. Single targt spec will only have high burst, but its dps would be mediocre so it doesnt compete with dps weaver builds at all. Support shouldnt even need to be discussed, and there's no other play style that ele lacks.

    I’m not arguing against the need for a new, fresh (and maybe PvP/WvW-reliable) espec; I’m just pointing out from my perspective that the push for a new single target ranged weapon seems largely unnecessary while scepter exists. I believe the weapon is held back by the ‘outdatedness’ that seems to plague the entirety of core ele, and could be refined further to fulfil the defined role single target burst (which it kinda tries to do already on FA burst builds), without restricting it to an espec. For a new weapon, long range I can agree on, but why restrict it to single target (even more so when discussing WvW)? The AAs could look like piercing/exploding Scorchrazors while AoEs just need to be ‘one-hit’ and ‘on-cast’ like Grasping Dead or Mind Spike, not lingering or delayed like the ones we have now.

    My reference to tempest was purely a suggestion to shift it from being a ‘melee’ oriented espec mechanic to something more in line with ele’s profession description of being ‘ranged’. I didn’t make any suggestions to try to increase its PvE dps, and even then I don’t really believe in the singular ‘dps espec’ philosophy anyway (cuz imo weaver is the ‘condi espec’, which sounds just as far fetched).

    If ele needs especs to carry its behind through PvP, we might need to address core problems first, rather than pretending that they don’t exist by covering it with a shiny new espec that hides all those flaws. This doesn’t apply only to ele; many future especs could be easily made provided that the core class is fairly strong by itself, but anet apparently intends to deal with this in a possibly more convoluted way (see ‘tradeoffs’ for druid and daredevil).

    I fully agree on revamping core ele, but if you havent noticed, the thread about solving ele's issues was posted 1 year ago and literally nothing impactful happened to core ele. Elite spec is pretty much the only way to "fix" the issues of core class, especially if you equip it with fast hitting skills and bunch of modifiers.

    Deso's favorite FROG
    Master of afk and kiting
    The God of Pips and Gud Deeps
    Froggo himself

  • otto.5684otto.5684 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Single burst 1200 range ( 80-90% of skills would be single target while the traitline would be entirely single target focused, no support options)

    Both weaver and tempest are melee geared. So a long range option would be nice. I really like @steki.1478 idea.

    "Melee tank CC - PBAoE + teleports to targets," is not that what weaver, to a big extent, is? Seems redundant.

  • Dahir.4158Dahir.4158 Member ✭✭✭
    Single burst 1200 range ( 80-90% of skills would be single target while the traitline would be entirely single target focused, no support options)

    LONGBOW 1500 RANGE PLS

    Broski Supreme - Borsk Carry Effect

  • lLobo.7960lLobo.7960 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 25, 2019
    Single burst 1200 range ( 80-90% of skills would be single target while the traitline would be entirely single target focused, no support options)

    @Noodle Ant.1605 said:
    For a new weapon, long range I can agree on, but why restrict it to single target (even more so when discussing WvW)? The AAs could look like piercing/exploding Scorchrazors while AoEs just need to be ‘one-hit’ and ‘on-cast’ like Grasping Dead or Mind Spike, not lingering or delayed like the ones we have now.

    Check out my suggestion for the Longbow HERE
    The idea is a long range weapon with different effects on the attacks. The auto-attack, for example, would be a single target double-hit (like warriors longbow aa) in air, an explosive shot in fire, piercing shot in earth and healing shot in water...

    @Noodle Ant.1605 said:
    My reference to tempest was purely a suggestion to shift it from being a ‘melee’ oriented espec mechanic to something more in line with ele’s profession description of being ‘ranged’. I didn’t make any suggestions to try to increase its PvE dps, and even then I don’t really believe in the singular ‘dps espec’ philosophy anyway (cuz imo weaver is the ‘condi espec’, which sounds just as far fetched).

    Tempest focus on longer attunements (to achieve overloads) and AoE effecs (offensive and supportive). Overloads are not melee. You can hit stuff with them over 600-900 units, thats not melee, thats mid-range. Warhorn is mid-low range. The only realy melee weapon in ele is sword (150?), even daggers are short range (300-600). You can focus your tempest on dps (going air/fire) you can focus it on condi-dmg (fire/arcane) or defense and group support (water/earth)
    Weaver focus on short attunements (short duration bonus for swaping, incentivizing quick swap) and selfish effects (self buffs, barrier, stat bonuses). Its a good dueling spec as it gives new dual skills, and a lot of evades, barrier, stab, condi clear and stats (vitality mostly). Its also a good dps spec as it has great dps bonuses (both power and condi) and lets the ele swap attunements faster getting to use more skills. Ele dps (in PvE) has always been about using its 2-5 skills quick and using conjures to cover their CDs. Anything the lower attunement CD would improve the ele dps by letting it cycle its skills faster, weaver does that and on top gives some nice stat bonuses for swapping attunements.

    @Noodle Ant.1605 said:
    If ele needs especs to carry its behind through PvP, we might need to address core problems first, rather than pretending that they don’t exist by covering it with a shiny new espec that hides all those flaws.

    Yes, core needs a nice revamp.
    I don't think a major rework is needed, but some shuffling of effects and traits would make a huge difference:
    - Giving the aura share trait to tempest and the aura heal trait to water would make it possible for tempests to be offensive support, providing buffs and dps to group, while core ele could use the auras to heal improving sustain;
    - Changing the smoldering auras to provide resistance instead of cleansing would make fire-auras a different way to deal with conditions (water cleanses, fire resists) creating different play-styles instead of the same in different traitlines.
    - Changing certain aura buffs to pulse while the aura is active (instead of single application) would make maintaining auras (with traits and runes and combos) more rewarding.
    - Improving stats and minor traits of each elemental trait-line and providing arcane with the old lingering elements would make core ele a viable alternative to elite specs in all game modes, due to the access to 2 elemental lines and maintaining their benefits shortly with arcane.
    - MORE SYNERGY!

  • Ganathar.4956Ganathar.4956 Member ✭✭✭

    @lLobo.7960 said:
    Tempest focus on longer attunements (to achieve overloads) and AoE effecs (offensive and supportive). Overloads are not melee. You can hit stuff with them over 600-900 units, thats not melee, thats mid-range. Warhorn is mid-low range. The only realy melee weapon in ele is sword (150?), even daggers are short range (300-600).

    Overloads are effectively melee. Largest overload radius is 360 on overload air, which is equivalent to the lower end of dagger range. Basically very short range and almost melee. For a nice reference, corona burst on holosmith has 300 range and is considered a melee attack. Overload earth is 240 radius, while overload fire is only 180. The only way to hit stuff with overloads from a bigger range is to leave the field and run away, but that doesn't mean that it's a ranged attack. It only means that after your melee attack you have a lingering field that will hit no enemy players that are thinking straight. Now warhorn is mostly a ranged weapon, but it is not enough to make it a ranged spec, because the mechanic forces a melee playstyle no matter your weapon choice. At least weaver allows you to be ranged with other weapons. Though the reason why weaver is mostly a melee spec comes down to dual attunements being terribly designed for non-sword weapons, which means that you mostly have to use sword.

  • Auburner.6945Auburner.6945 Member ✭✭✭
    Single burst 1200 range ( 80-90% of skills would be single target while the traitline would be entirely single target focused, no support options)

    Hammer for zergs, but Staff got that (just needs tweaks). Longbow or Greatsword for dueling.

    Just give me range... and don't forget to put in some built-in defense so I don't become a potato when in melee.

    Pull the strings. Watch them dance.

  • lLobo.7960lLobo.7960 Member ✭✭✭
    Single burst 1200 range ( 80-90% of skills would be single target while the traitline would be entirely single target focused, no support options)

    @Ganathar.4956 said:
    At least weaver allows you to be ranged with other weapons. Though the reason why weaver is mostly a melee spec comes down to dual attunements being terribly designed for non-sword weapons, which means that you mostly have to use sword.

    I can agree with most of what you said. I still don't think overloads are melee, but yea, very short range, and I'd agree with making them (fire/earth/water) larger and with better group effects (fire already pulses might, air should pulse the electric discharge bonus to 5 allies and hit 5 enemies, etc), but I don't think they are melee per se... but whatever.

    But one thing here...
    The reason why weaver is melee is because sword is far superior than any other weapon.
    Staff weaver was great in PvE but got nerfed. In PvP staff is just sub-par if the opposing team has any class with a teleport (thief, guard, sword weaver, mesmer, rev). Because there is no point on using a long range slow weapon without defensive skills or teleports if anyone can just jump on you and wipe you out or force you to be on the run instead of supporting your team.
    Scepter weaver was quite good for a while, but the nerfs to it made it not worth it due to the same thing with staff, plus, any ranger will one-shot you before you can use your burst. And if you a chance to burst, they will invul+stealth+rush away to re-position. Ele does not have that option.

  • Single burst 1200 range ( 80-90% of skills would be single target while the traitline would be entirely single target focused, no support options)

    Only cause the second one (tank melee) has been a thing for years already on ele in sPvp and I'm sick of it

  • Jski.6180Jski.6180 Member ✭✭✭✭

    These are not a roll these are how a roll will play out. A roll is tank dps or support.

    See ELE forms and you will get my views.

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭

    A long bow mage where the ele bow switches appearance depending attunement ie fiery bow or electrified bow, yes pls

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Single burst 1200 range ( 80-90% of skills would be single target while the traitline would be entirely single target focused, no support options)

    @lLobo.7960 said:
    I can agree with most of what you said. I still don't think overloads are melee, but yea, very short range, and I'd agree with making them (fire/earth/water) larger and with better group effects (fire already pulses might, air should pulse the electric discharge bonus to 5 allies and hit 5 enemies, etc), but I don't think they are melee per se... but whatever.

    Honestly, this feels a bit academic. Sure, you might not be within sword's length of your enemy while overloading, but you're not far from it. While you're not forced to do so with tempest, everything about tempest is calling on you to dive into the middle of the action - it's just a question of whether you stay there (dagger/x) or take a more 'hit and run' approach returning to a standoff position after overloading (scepter/X or staff).

    For weaver, similarly, most of the skills (apart from scepter and staff dual skills) and traits are designed around getting into melee and not dying.

    I think it's reasonable to say that both are aimed towards close combat.

    Now, I don't think this is entirely ArenaNet's fault. Sword - or greatsword - was one of the common requests from the elementalist community, and most people asking for it were thinking of a melee weapon. But after two close combat oriented elite specs, I think it's time for one that's a little more standoffish.

  • Lonami.2987Lonami.2987 Member ✭✭✭

    I want real melee, with heavy cleaving and crowd control.

  • steki.1478steki.1478 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Single burst 1200 range ( 80-90% of skills would be single target while the traitline would be entirely single target focused, no support options)

    @Lonami.2987 said:
    I want real melee, with heavy cleaving and crowd control.

    Both current elites have those.

    Deso's favorite FROG
    Master of afk and kiting
    The God of Pips and Gud Deeps
    Froggo himself

  • Noodle Ant.1605Noodle Ant.1605 Member ✭✭✭

    @steki.1478 said:

    @Lonami.2987 said:
    I want real melee, with heavy cleaving and crowd control.

    Both current elites have those.

    Depends on context - and perhaps more importantly on the weapon rather than the elite spec.

    I can only speak for PvE (and a maybe a bit of WvW), where non-staff ele cleave is either mediocre or worse.

    Sword weaver (both power and condi) are mediocre at cleave, only effectively cleaving additional targets within touching distance of the main target. CC is not good but not abysmal.

    Dps sc/w temp is horrible at cleave and can lose dmg on the main target with additional adds. It theoretically does not reach meta viability on anything that is not large or huge. CC is very poor.

    This, of course, may look different in competitive game modes.

    pChrono (main), cWeaver and pReaper. An asura who likes snowflakes.

  • Auburner.6945Auburner.6945 Member ✭✭✭
    Single burst 1200 range ( 80-90% of skills would be single target while the traitline would be entirely single target focused, no support options)

    Would love a mana based e-spec where mana management is critical yet not so pointless-overly-complicated-for-nothing as weaver.

    Pull the strings. Watch them dance.

  • steki.1478steki.1478 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Single burst 1200 range ( 80-90% of skills would be single target while the traitline would be entirely single target focused, no support options)

    @Noodle Ant.1605 said:

    @steki.1478 said:

    @Lonami.2987 said:
    I want real melee, with heavy cleaving and crowd control.

    Both current elites have those.

    Depends on context - and perhaps more importantly on the weapon rather than the elite spec.

    I can only speak for PvE (and a maybe a bit of WvW), where non-staff ele cleave is either mediocre or worse.

    Sword weaver (both power and condi) are mediocre at cleave, only effectively cleaving additional targets within touching distance of the main target. CC is not good but not abysmal.

    Dps sc/w temp is horrible at cleave and can lose dmg on the main target with additional adds. It theoretically does not reach meta viability on anything that is not large or huge. CC is very poor.

    This, of course, may look different in competitive game modes.

    That's because you're only counting meta builds focused on dps. D/f and sw/f have huge amount of CC, the bad part on weaver is that your CC comes with huge dps loss, but that's not the main comment wanted anyway. Current tempest build in wvw has huge amount of CC.

    Dagger on ele already has among best melee cleave by default and it easily gets tripled with air overload, storm glyph, warhorn skills.

    Idk why people confuse the fact that certain build lacks some features and the fact that the same build isnt meta. People still think that ele's purpose in wvw is just dps or just heal when it's the class with among highest aoe CC output.

    Deso's favorite FROG
    Master of afk and kiting
    The God of Pips and Gud Deeps
    Froggo himself

  • Noodle Ant.1605Noodle Ant.1605 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 8, 2019

    @steki.1478 said:

    @Noodle Ant.1605 said:
    Depends on context - and perhaps more importantly on the weapon rather than the elite spec.

    I can only speak for PvE (and a maybe a bit of WvW), where non-staff ele cleave is either mediocre or worse.

    Sword weaver (both power and condi) are mediocre at cleave, only effectively cleaving additional targets within touching distance of the main target. CC is not good but not abysmal.

    Dps sc/w temp is horrible at cleave and can lose dmg on the main target with additional adds. It theoretically does not reach meta viability on anything that is not large or huge. CC is very poor.

    This, of course, may look different in competitive game modes.

    That's because you're only counting meta builds focused on dps. D/f and sw/f have huge amount of CC, the bad part on weaver is that your CC comes with huge dps loss, but that's not the main comment wanted anyway. Current tempest build in wvw has huge amount of CC.

    Meta ele builds bring unimpressive dps and poor cc (while being horribly squishy and reliant on boons, etc.). Non-meta builds can bring unimpressive cc but ultimately have poorer dps, which makes it not worth taking.

    Also I said things can change depending on context - cc on staff works in wvw/pvp, but it doesn’t work on stationary/dumb/unpredictable pve bosses with breakbars now does it?

    Dagger on ele already has among best melee cleave by default and it easily gets tripled with air overload, storm glyph, warhorn skills.

    Dagger is from core ele. It’s been given the blessing and curse of being assigned as ‘the bruiser’ weapon and will almost always look good in pvp/wvw, but will always be underwhelming in pve that isn’t OW.

    Overload Air is as effective as a 360 lightning whip but is still limited by a 3 target cap (which is decided by rng?). Storm glyph is from core but is a horrible skill to use for cleave. A significant % of dmg from warhorn (and dps tempest) sits behind Lightning Orb, a 100% single target skill that requires range and big hitboxes to be effective.

    Idk why people confuse the fact that certain build lacks some features and the fact that the same build isnt meta. People still think that ele's purpose in wvw is just dps or just heal when it's the class with among highest aoe CC output.

    Well, wasn’t discussing wvw so :confused:. Even then, this is discussing ele’s ability to perform decently in melee, cleave and cc at the same time. The current especs do not provide any better options comparable to the core setup (d/x or staff) to simultaneously satisfy the conditions above.

    Or are you implying core is already good enough?

    Core has those.

    pChrono (main), cWeaver and pReaper. An asura who likes snowflakes.

  • steki.1478steki.1478 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Single burst 1200 range ( 80-90% of skills would be single target while the traitline would be entirely single target focused, no support options)

    @Noodle Ant.1605 said:

    @steki.1478 said:

    @Noodle Ant.1605 said:
    Depends on context - and perhaps more importantly on the weapon rather than the elite spec.

    I can only speak for PvE (and a maybe a bit of WvW), where non-staff ele cleave is either mediocre or worse.

    Sword weaver (both power and condi) are mediocre at cleave, only effectively cleaving additional targets within touching distance of the main target. CC is not good but not abysmal.

    Dps sc/w temp is horrible at cleave and can lose dmg on the main target with additional adds. It theoretically does not reach meta viability on anything that is not large or huge. CC is very poor.

    This, of course, may look different in competitive game modes.

    That's because you're only counting meta builds focused on dps. D/f and sw/f have huge amount of CC, the bad part on weaver is that your CC comes with huge dps loss, but that's not the main comment wanted anyway. Current tempest build in wvw has huge amount of CC.

    Meta ele builds bring unimpressive dps and poor cc (while being horribly squishy and reliant on boons, etc.). Non-meta builds can bring unimpressive cc but ultimately have poorer dps, which makes it not worth taking.

    Also I said things can change depending on context - cc on staff works in wvw/pvp, but it doesn’t work on stationary/dumb/unpredictable pve bosses with breakbars now does it?

    Dagger on ele already has among best melee cleave by default and it easily gets tripled with air overload, storm glyph, warhorn skills.

    Dagger is from core ele. It’s been given the blessing and curse of being assigned as ‘the bruiser’ weapon and will almost always look good in pvp/wvw, but will always be underwhelming in pve that isn’t OW.

    Overload Air is as effective as a 360 lightning whip but is still limited by a 3 target cap (which is decided by rng?). Storm glyph is from core but is a horrible skill to use for cleave. A significant % of dmg from warhorn (and dps tempest) sits behind Lightning Orb, a 100% single target skill that requires range and big hitboxes to be effective.

    Idk why people confuse the fact that certain build lacks some features and the fact that the same build isnt meta. People still think that ele's purpose in wvw is just dps or just heal when it's the class with among highest aoe CC output.

    Well, wasn’t discussing wvw so :confused:. Even then, this is discussing ele’s ability to perform decently in melee, cleave and cc at the same time. The current especs do not provide any better options comparable to the core setup (d/x or staff) to simultaneously satisfy the conditions above.

    Or are you implying core is already good enough?

    Core has those.

    You're just repeating what I said was wrong: if it's not meta it doesn't exist and if it's not pve it doesnt exist.

    Elite spec kit doesn't need to be OP to be considered as a part of the spec. All things you mentioned are easily fixed with buffing numbers which means that class (or elite spec) already has those features. There's a reason why people were stacking tempests on add heavy encounters.

    Stop confusing top tier effectiveness with existence.

    If you think that non meta builds have unimpressive CC then you have no idea what ele is capable of doing. Yes it comes with low dps, but it doesn't mean it's not there. Ele just isnt designed to have (many) skills with multiple purposes.

    Deso's favorite FROG
    Master of afk and kiting
    The God of Pips and Gud Deeps
    Froggo himself

  • Noodle Ant.1605Noodle Ant.1605 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 9, 2019

    @steki.1478 said:
    You're just repeating what I said was wrong: if it's not meta it doesn't exist and if it's not pve it doesnt exist.

    Elite spec kit doesn't need to be OP to be considered as a part of the spec. All things you mentioned are easily fixed with buffing numbers which means that class (or elite spec) already has those features. There's a reason why people were stacking tempests on add heavy encounters.

    Stop confusing top tier effectiveness with existence.

    If you think that non meta builds have unimpressive CC then you have no idea what ele is capable of doing. Yes it comes with low dps, but it doesn't mean it's not there. Ele just isnt designed to have (many) skills with multiple purposes.

    This was the beginning of this/our discussion/argument:

    @Lonami.2987 said:
    I want real melee, with heavy cleaving and crowd control.

    @steki.1478 said:
    Both current elites have those.

    The useful parts of my responses (everything else was me being sidetracked by irrelevant matters):

    @Noodle Ant.1605 said:
    Depends on context - and perhaps more importantly on the weapon rather than the elite spec.

    This is discussing ele’s ability to perform decently in melee, cleave and cc at the same time. The current especs do not provide any better options comparable to the core setup (d/x or staff) to simultaneously satisfy the conditions above.

    And to add some more:

    Perhaps I shouldn’t have used the word ‘better’, but instead ‘defined’. All of ele’s current melee builds are based around practically dancing around and kiting a singular opponent, or casting AoE from range, rather than overpowering a group through dominating strength. What I interpreted from Lonami’s post was that they wanted ele to have an espec option that is more akin to scrapper/reaper in melee, cleave & cc, which the current especs do not bring simultaneously (um... stop discussing just cc or just cleave), or are not (as) effective in doing so.

    I’ve already mentioned somewhere that tempest is stuck in a supposed melee role because somebody still believes that overloads absolutely have to be centered on the ele. Warhorn has 600+ range. Shouts are more supportive than offensive. A single grandmaster trait that allows overloads to be casted at range (dunno, 900 range?) would completely obliterate the concept that ‘tempest is a melee spec’. It’s not really, it was sold as a support spec (where every relevant support skill outside of overloads has a whopping 600 range anyway).

    I also do hope that you haven’t gotten the statement that ‘tempests are taken on add heavy fights’ from when it was much stronger because after nerfs, current overloads are practically glorified extra-range pbAoE autoattacks mostly useful for its lingering, post-cast effects. Warhorn only hits things in front of your face, shouts are weak, and it’d probably be noticeably better taking better recognised cleave specs such as the generic ‘DH, holo and reaper’ who have actual high dmg, espec-specific skills dedicated to cleaving things down quickly.

    Anet (maybe accidentally) sold sword on weaver as a ‘single target, high dps’ weapon on the April 23 patch. It kinda does feel like a dueling/one-on-one spec rather than a ‘I’ll come in and bash you all down’ spec with it’s stabby-poke, cone-of-fire skills. If d/x weaver (specifically through its extra #3 skills) fulfils some viable role that resembles a firm, intimidating cleaving bruiser, then maybe I’d actually stand down.

    A tl;dr of my replies:
    The existence of the two current especs does not mean that another different melee option (specifically in ALL of melee, cleave and cc) should be so easily rejected.

    pChrono (main), cWeaver and pReaper. An asura who likes snowflakes.

  • steki.1478steki.1478 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Single burst 1200 range ( 80-90% of skills would be single target while the traitline would be entirely single target focused, no support options)

    @Noodle Ant.1605 said:

    @steki.1478 said:
    You're just repeating what I said was wrong: if it's not meta it doesn't exist and if it's not pve it doesnt exist.

    Elite spec kit doesn't need to be OP to be considered as a part of the spec. All things you mentioned are easily fixed with buffing numbers which means that class (or elite spec) already has those features. There's a reason why people were stacking tempests on add heavy encounters.

    Stop confusing top tier effectiveness with existence.

    If you think that non meta builds have unimpressive CC then you have no idea what ele is capable of doing. Yes it comes with low dps, but it doesn't mean it's not there. Ele just isnt designed to have (many) skills with multiple purposes.

    This was the beginning of this/our discussion/argument:

    @Lonami.2987 said:
    I want real melee, with heavy cleaving and crowd control.

    @steki.1478 said:
    Both current elites have those.

    The useful parts of my responses (everything else was me being sidetracked by irrelevant matters):

    @Noodle Ant.1605 said:
    Depends on context - and perhaps more importantly on the weapon rather than the elite spec.

    This is discussing ele’s ability to perform decently in melee, cleave and cc at the same time. The current especs do not provide any better options comparable to the core setup (d/x or staff) to simultaneously satisfy the conditions above.

    And to add some more:

    Perhaps I shouldn’t have used the word ‘better’, but instead ‘defined’. All of ele’s current melee builds are based around practically dancing around and kiting a singular opponent, or casting AoE from range, rather than overpowering a group through dominating strength. What I interpreted from Lonami’s post was that they wanted ele to have an espec option that is more akin to scrapper/reaper in melee, cleave & cc, which the current especs do not bring simultaneously (um... stop discussing just cc or just cleave), or are not (as) effective in doing so.

    I’ve already mentioned somewhere that tempest is stuck in a supposed melee role because somebody still believes that overloads absolutely have to be centered on the ele. Warhorn has 600+ range. Shouts are more supportive than offensive. A single grandmaster trait that allows overloads to be casted at range (dunno, 900 range?) would completely obliterate the concept that ‘tempest is a melee spec’. It’s not really, it was sold as a support spec (where every relevant support skill outside of overloads has a whopping 600 range anyway).

    I also do hope that you haven’t gotten the statement that ‘tempests are taken on add heavy fights’ from when it was much stronger because after nerfs, current overloads are practically glorified extra-range pbAoE autoattacks mostly useful for its lingering, post-cast effects. Warhorn only hits things in front of your face, shouts are weak, and it’d probably be noticeably better taking better recognised cleave specs such as the generic ‘DH, holo and reaper’ who have actual high dmg, espec-specific skills dedicated to cleaving things down quickly.

    Anet (maybe accidentally) sold sword on weaver as a ‘single target, high dps’ weapon on the April 23 patch. It kinda does feel like a dueling/one-on-one spec rather than a ‘I’ll come in and bash you all down’ spec with it’s stabby-poke, cone-of-fire skills. If d/x weaver (specifically through its extra #3 skills) fulfils some viable role that resembles a firm, intimidating cleaving bruiser, then maybe I’d actually stand down.

    A tl;dr of my replies:
    The existence of the two current especs does not mean that another different melee option (specifically in ALL of melee, cleave and cc) should be so easily rejected.

    But the lack of other types of gameplay certainly means that melee option should be rejected because first 2 specs already focus on that.

    The reason why those 2 "failed" is because core class very melee unfriendly and those specs didnt address lacking features. They just improved ones that ele already has while having a certain tradeoff which nullifies those improvements outside of elite specs' niche. So basically, ele's elite specs ended up being pretty balanced compared to core class, but lackluster compared to other elite specs which are straight upgrades to core class.

    Deso's favorite FROG
    Master of afk and kiting
    The God of Pips and Gud Deeps
    Froggo himself

  • Noodle Ant.1605Noodle Ant.1605 Member ✭✭✭

    @steki.1478 said:
    But the lack of other types of gameplay certainly means that melee option should be rejected because first 2 specs already focus on that.

    Not personally trying to devalue the option, but someone could deny ‘the lack of other types’ by twisting the perspective that staff is 1200+ range and scepter is single target and bursty. It looks the same as tempest with whatever cleave it has and weaver with melee. Both sides are trying merge what ele might already have to make something supposedly ‘new’ and what ele lacks (not one or the other, but the combination).

    It doesn’t help how weaver practically updated all of ele’s weapons with the new #3’s, meaning that all the core weapons (i.e. that 1200+ range staff and single target bursty scepter) are also part of the espec, so it’s not entirely correct to say that weaver is completely melee oriented (through some of its stances say otherwise, heh).

    The reason why those 2 "failed" is because core class very melee unfriendly and those specs didnt address lacking features. They just improved ones that ele already has while having a certain tradeoff which nullifies those improvements outside of elite specs' niche. So basically, ele's elite specs ended up being pretty balanced compared to core class, but lackluster compared to other elite specs which are straight upgrades to core class.

    What features does ele actually lack? And exactly how specific are we going to make these features?

    Similar to engi, I believe that ele’s natural versatility (don’t forget conjures ugh) is somewhat affecting to its espec options. Both professions got both a support/tankier (HoT) and a melee option (PoF) that they did not originally have, and from there it’s kind of a ‘what now?’ situation.

    I think the appeal now lies in taking away from core rather than giving - I’m actually eyeing ‘no support’ and ‘limited sustain’ more than the specifics of the weapon (ranged/melee) since core technically ‘has it all’ (bar pure melee).

    pChrono (main), cWeaver and pReaper. An asura who likes snowflakes.

  • lLobo.7960lLobo.7960 Member ✭✭✭
    Single burst 1200 range ( 80-90% of skills would be single target while the traitline would be entirely single target focused, no support options)

    I honestly don't see weaver and tempest being melee focused or not...
    Tempest is AoE focused, both for offense and support. And also focused on staying longer on attunements to achieve better results (overloading).
    Weaver is selfish with focus on quick attunement swaps (short self bonus for swaping attunements).
    Traits on weaver don't give it bonus for being melee, they give bonus for using dual skills and swapping attunements. Some of those do help being in melee (barrier) or staying in melee (superspeed, swiftness) but they also help staying in range and kiting...

    The reason why ele is not good at range is mostly because staff and scepter have been nerfed. Not because of the elite specs "focus".
    Staff is still a great choice for WvW and PvE zergs... Scepter tempest is still a viable dps (with a side of boons) in pve...

    @Noodle Ant.1605 said:
    What features does ele actually lack? And exactly how specific are we going to make these features?
    I think the appeal now lies in taking away from core rather than giving - I’m actually eyeing ‘no support’ and ‘limited sustain’ more than the specifics of the weapon (ranged/melee) since core technically ‘has it all’ (bar pure melee).

    We have core ele with its standard attunements, we have tempest with longer attunements, we have weaver with shorter and dual attunements.
    Next one could be an ele with no attunements (in a way) and weapon swap. And if you remove all the 40 independ attunement skills replacing them with 5 basic skills, then any changes to those skills will not impact core ele or previous specs...
    Something like this:

    The disciple is an elementalist that focus more on martial prowess than raw magic channeling.
    Focusing on martial expertise and physical prowess, the disciple can swap weapons in combat but looses the ability to have different and unique skills in each attunment and magical attacks.
    Instead, the disciple uses the elemental magic of attunements to boost its attacks and defenses and uses its weapons in martial combat instead of conduits to magic. To compensate the lack of long range magic attacks, the disciple uses a longbow to deliver his attacks from distance and physical skills to be mobile and effective in combat.

    New weapon: longbow
    New utility skills: physical skills
    Martial focus elementalist with long range dps as longbow, weapon swap instead of individual attunement skills, mobility, new conditions (torment and poison), and even stealth with combos. Instead of one weapon with 20 new skills, gains one weapon with 5 new skills and new skills for each old weapon (staff 5, scepter 3, dagger 5, focus 2). Staff and dagger become melee versions, scepter becomes akin to mace and focus akin to shield.

©2010–2018 ArenaNet, LLC. All rights reserved. Guild Wars, Guild Wars 2, Heart of Thorns, Guild Wars 2: Path of Fire, ArenaNet, NCSOFT, the Interlocking NC Logo, and all associated logos and designs are trademarks or registered trademarks of NCSOFT Corporation. All other trademarks are the property of their respective owners.