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Timegating a Fractal. Really?

Alyster.9470Alyster.9470 Member ✭✭✭

So I agree that the farm method posted on reddit which people farm the last boss of fractal 61 in about 10 seconds and make +100 gold per hour is broken, but.

I have been farming this fractal with my guild for a long time with the usual way (doing every event and the boss from start to finish over and over again). 1 completion would take about 2 mins and yield around 25-30g per hour and a bit more if you have augmentations. This farm requires good team coordination, great knowledge of underwater skills, rotations and putting high effort all the time to be able to complete it as fast as possible and make it efficient.

So you are saying to me that, tryharding underwater rotations, coordinating constantly and putting high effort into a content to make gold is not OK. But, going to SW or any world boss/meta event and pressing just 1-1-1 is completely fine and the right thing to do?! I dont even know if there is a content now that is rewarding for the effort you put in...

A better nerf would be: “Players cannot collect final boss rewards in fractal 61 if they have not participated in the previous events”
But instead you are timegating a fractal because of your own faulty design.

I hope you can find a better way to solve the “abusive farm”.

Comments

  • Alyster.9470Alyster.9470 Member ✭✭✭

    @Inculpatus cedo.9234 said:
    Are you talking about the 5-minute cooldown? Five minutes??

    Yes

  • Jayden Reese.9542Jayden Reese.9542 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Well this isn't the 1st time the tweaked a farm. I remember those 2 molten bosses you could spam so fast. You shouldn't be able to beat a fractal 30 times an hour even if you say its only 25-30g which you probably aren't assessing all assets properly. They stop all this kitten yes. SW isn't 30g w no effort either neither was istan and even dragonfall. They don't let anything like that stay forever.

  • Vinceman.4572Vinceman.4572 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Nice change. It took way too long till the nerf but finally it's there. Ty Anet.

    R.I.P. Build Templates, 15.10.2019

  • How many people do you think farm Aquatic? How much time do you think ANet should invest into plugging an obvious exploit? How much do you think they should worry about the handful of others who will be impacted by a 5 minute cooldown?

    This is one of those "why we can't have nice things" situations: someone abused a loophole and ANet found a quick way to close it, which of course had foreseen consequences to legit players. It's annoying and unfortunate. And it's also more efficient than trying to find a perfect solution and letting the exploit go unchallenged.

    I'm genuinely sorry that your group's activity has been slowed down by this change targeted at someone else. I suspect that if you made a case for it, you might be able to convince ANet to change their mind.

    Hype is the path to the dark side. Hype leads to unfulfilled expectations. Disappointment leads to anger. Anger leads to disgust. Disgust leads to "oh, new shinies! I'm back!"

  • PervMonk.4891PervMonk.4891 Member ✭✭✭

    go do your dailies and STACK on the world boss auto attacking it to death and don't forget to buy more gems to buy that epic skin.

  • borgs.6103borgs.6103 Member ✭✭✭

    Anet wants you to farm on open world, not on instanced content. If this farm caught on before it was stopped, open-world would look barren because everyone would be in their own instanced fractals.

    Check out the fable of the Boiling Frog.

  • Glider.5792Glider.5792 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 28, 2019

    This should be done for all fractals anyway. There are still other fractals you can constantly spam, making 60g+/h.

    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCeFWMeskOJhk8N-SvOFCJXA
    Fractal speed kills, raids, Black Lion Chest Openings, random.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 28, 2019

    Fractals are/were rebalanced a while back to have a certain minimum and maximum clear time. The rewards for completing the fractal are based around these values.

    Players finding exploits, certain unintended mechanics or skipping content leads to issues in reward balance.

    Arenanet now has multiple ways to adress this issue:
    1.) fix the skips, exploits, unintended interactions etc. on a case to case basis
    2.) extend the length of fractals which are to short
    3.) ban players who exploited, skipped, used unintended game mechanics
    4.) introduce flat reward timegates
    5.) remove the game content
    6.) reduce the rewards provided for the content
    7.) ignore the issue

    Now you tell me which of those options you would prefer besides number 7 to be used in this type of situation but keep in mind, some take quite a lot of developer work. I can live with pretty much all of them though I would prefer to not see players get banned for using unintended game mechanics (which has happened in the past mind you, remember Karma weapons, or the Wintersday Amulett, etc.?).

    The 5 minute cool down was added to prevent exploits and not have to temoprarly remove active players from the game (though that might still happen). Yes, it has an unfortunate side effect of making the fractal less farmable.

    @Glider.5792 said:
    This should be done for all fractals anyway. There are still other fractals you can constantly spam, making 60g+/h.

    Agreed, not sure why the timer wasn't added accross all fractals. It would not affect normal clear rates and would only affect sub 5 minute consecutive runs.

  • Faaris.8013Faaris.8013 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I guess it's a "quick fix" because sorting this thing out properly takes much more effort. The root cause might be the incredible power creep. The fractal team is not in charge of tweaking the power of classes, so they try to adjust the fractals instead. They thought adding stupid new instabilities and stacking them would help fighting the power creep, but it turns out that doesn't work. It only made some players step away from fractals. The meta groups simply ignore the instabs and most of the mechanics. I was one of those who stepped away from Fractals when they made the big changes to instabs. I played a few fractals recently and was surprised how easy and fast they were done, despite all the instabs. Meta groups have so many perma-boons and dps now, they usually just stand on the same spot, ignoring mechanics and instabs. I quickly realized that my way of doing fractals was outdated. I remember failing at Mai Trin in the past, or not having enough dps to take down Subject 6 before the golden oozes pop up. That's all history now, thanks to the power creep and the fact that mostly meta people keep doing fractals more for rewards than for fun.

    I see that the fractal team has no influence on the power creep, and it's hard to adjust your content that way. The instabs were a bad idea though, they annoyed players like me who simply stopped doing fractals (which was my favourite content before) and made other players using all means to shorten the time for completion. And now, seeing that their instabs didn't make the content harder, they try to add other measures, like time gates. Still better than adding a non-skippable cut-scene before the end "boss".

    In a perfect world, they would make the actual fractals harder, or more demanding, or enforcing mechanics. Or simply make the boss fight of Aquatic Ruins feel like a boss fight. The same goes for other boss fights that feel like doing the Fire Elemental or the Great Jungle Wurm world bosses. I get the feeling that the raid team is in a similar uneasy position, the new raid seems to be too easy (haven't tried it myself, that was the feedback of players I know).

    More internal communication between teams within Anet might help.

  • Compleo.3182Compleo.3182 Member ✭✭

    People are just stupid to share good methods to farm gold in this game. If you have one, keep it to yourself or reliable friends.

  • thrag.9740thrag.9740 Member ✭✭✭

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Fractals are/were rebalanced a while back to have a certain minimum and maximum clear time. The rewards for completing the fractal are based around these values.

    Players finding exploits, certain unintended mechanics or skipping content leads to issues in reward balance.

    Arenanet now has multiple ways to adress this issue:
    1.) fix the skips, exploits, unintended interactions etc. on a case to case basis
    2.) extend the length of fractals which are to short
    3.) ban players who exploited, skipped, used unintended game mechanics
    4.) introduce flat reward timegates
    5.) remove the game content
    6.) reduce the rewards provided for the content
    7.) ignore the issue

    Now you tell me which of those options you would prefer besides number 7

    I don't think it's fair to call this an exploit. The fractal was being fully cleared in the farm. It's not like players were glitching through walls or anything (at least not from what I read). Additionally players getting credit for joining at the end of a fractal was intentionally adding into the game by Anet. There was a time where if you DC'd from a fractal, you just couldn't get back into it (i.e. no late joins:https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/13bl93/fractals_no_way_to_rejoin_after_disconnect/). Late joins were specifically added in by Anet. Nothing here was performing in a way that Anet had not specifically designed.

    The problem lies in the fact that it shouldn't be possible to solo a fractal at a speed comparable to a full 5 man group. In short, a fractal that requires no team work is simply a poorly designed fractal. I think it is possible to make soloing much more challenging without changing the length of the fractal much. I don't see an easy way to fix how easy it is to solo the dolphin path/dark path runs. But I believe if you simply replaced the last set of trash mobs with a single powerful champion, you could make it much more difficult to solo without adding much time to the clear time of a full 5 man group.

  • Skotlex.7580Skotlex.7580 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Compleo.3182 said:
    People are just stupid to share good methods to farm gold in this game. If you have one, keep it to yourself or reliable friends.

    That would demand to always have a static group, the moment there isn't a full party and lfg is used, it's almost guaranteed it won't be secret anymore.

  • Turkeyspit.3965Turkeyspit.3965 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @thrag.9740 said:
    The problem lies in the fact that it shouldn't be possible to solo a fractal at a speed comparable to a full 5 man group. In short, a fractal that requires no team work is simply a poorly designed fractal. I think it is possible to make soloing much more challenging without changing the length of the fractal much. I don't see an easy way to fix how easy it is to solo the dolphin path/dark path runs. But I believe if you simply replaced the last set of trash mobs with a single powerful champion, you could make it much more difficult to solo without adding much time to the clear time of a full 5 man group.

    I don't think ANET has an issue with players soloing fractals, or even soloing them quickly. This farm allowed players to get fractal encryptions far faster than they want.

    You'll note they didn't completely prevent this farm from happening...just by adding a 5 min cooldown they make it less efficient.

    This is the reality of MMOs: players will always push the limits beyond what developers can foresee and test.

    Anyone who knew about this farm and is surprised at this move was just living in denial. Sure we can scream about the 'fun police', but we play in THEIR world, so we have to abide by THEIR rules. The only power you have here is, if you don't like it, you can choose to leave the game.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 28, 2019

    @thrag.9740 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Fractals are/were rebalanced a while back to have a certain minimum and maximum clear time. The rewards for completing the fractal are based around these values.

    Players finding exploits, certain unintended mechanics or skipping content leads to issues in reward balance.

    Arenanet now has multiple ways to adress this issue:
    1.) fix the skips, exploits, unintended interactions etc. on a case to case basis
    2.) extend the length of fractals which are to short
    3.) ban players who exploited, skipped, used unintended game mechanics
    4.) introduce flat reward timegates
    5.) remove the game content
    6.) reduce the rewards provided for the content
    7.) ignore the issue

    Now you tell me which of those options you would prefer besides number 7

    I don't think it's fair to call this an exploit. The fractal was being fully cleared in the farm. It's not like players were glitching through walls or anything (at least not from what I read). Additionally players getting credit for joining at the end of a fractal was intentionally adding into the game by Anet. There was a time where if you DC'd from a fractal, you just couldn't get back into it (i.e. no late joins:https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/13bl93/fractals_no_way_to_rejoin_after_disconnect/). Late joins were specifically added in by Anet. Nothing here was performing in a way that Anet had not specifically designed.

    The problem lies in the fact that it shouldn't be possible to solo a fractal at a speed comparable to a full 5 man group. In short, a fractal that requires no team work is simply a poorly designed fractal. I think it is possible to make soloing much more challenging without changing the length of the fractal much. I don't see an easy way to fix how easy it is to solo the dolphin path/dark path runs. But I believe if you simply replaced the last set of trash mobs with a single powerful champion, you could make it much more difficult to solo without adding much time to the clear time of a full 5 man group.

    Agreed, but I was referring to skips in general. Some of them can easily be classified as exploits even if the ones used for this specific fractal might be more mild.

    The funny thing is, people enjoy the benefits of super lucrative farms but are unwilling to accept the effect these might have on the games economy if every one did them. It becomes a matter of: I want all the rewards but also the benefit from other people acquiring wealth way slower.

    Believe it or not, there is an internal guideline for how lucrative a farm should and can be. It's quite far from 100 gold per hour. Now TC might dislike the fact that while his method of farming might have been within the games acceptable range (and 20-30 gold is pretty much where most lucrative farms are settled at), this change was aimed at the minority who made vastly more gold.

  • melandru.3876melandru.3876 Member ✭✭✭✭

    alot of classes can do skips.

    the current meta without druid/chrono has the fb do the "jp" part in cliffside for example

    raid portal, cast sword of justice above you, use merciful intervention on the sword of justice, activate raid portal. congratz you just took over the chrono's job

    my opinion is: if you kill a thing in a legit way, then why nerf it?

    either you scale up difficulty, scale down underwater abilities on some classes or a combination of both.
    affecting the entire playerbase, based on the actions of a handful is a waste of resources

  • TanksK.4795TanksK.4795 Member ✭✭✭

    5 minutes is not that long tho.

  • melandru.3876melandru.3876 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @TanksK.4795 said:
    5 minutes is not that long tho.

    it is. 5 mins is 2 clears.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @melandru.3876 said:

    @TanksK.4795 said:
    5 minutes is not that long tho.

    it is. 5 mins is 2 clears.

    Clearing Aquatic Ruins in 2 minutes is not intended. Arenanet now had a choice:

    • reduce rewards per clear
    • extend the length of the fractal
    • add a completion timer

    They went with option 3.

  • melandru.3876melandru.3876 Member ✭✭✭✭

    a thing i'd like to know tho (can't test it, i'm without pc this weekend)

    is the cooldown on the fractal, or on the tier?
    if you clear 61, can you then do 76 or will 76 also have the cooldown?

    if so, you could just rotate between 61 and 76 the difference is non near existant in clear-time. just more "luck" for an instab that might slow you down..a bit

  • melandru.3876melandru.3876 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @melandru.3876 said:

    @TanksK.4795 said:
    5 minutes is not that long tho.

    it is. 5 mins is 2 clears.

    Clearing Aquatic Ruins in 2 minutes is not intended. Arenanet now had a choice:

    • reduce rewards per clear
    • extend the length of the fractal
    • add a completion timer

    They went with option 3.

    i'm not disagreeing with you, 2 min is very fast.

    still stand by my point, that zero illegal things are, and were done. every thing got killed/completed in a legit way

    the real "bad" thing, as clearly shown, is the powercreep that both pof and hot brought

    underwater reaper, underwater chrono, underwater soulbeast, underwater firebrand..... the dps they can pull off is off the charts. not the players fault, "balance" fault

  • Compleo.3182Compleo.3182 Member ✭✭

    @Skotlex.7580 said:

    @Compleo.3182 said:
    People are just stupid to share good methods to farm gold in this game. If you have one, keep it to yourself or reliable friends.

    That would demand to always have a static group, the moment there isn't a full party and lfg is used, it's almost guaranteed it won't be secret anymore.

    You wouldnt use lfg for a strat like that, because it requires coordination. And yes, eventually it will be used by more ppl, but posting it on reddit was just a stupid unless they hoped it to be nerfed.

  • ButcherofMalakir.4067ButcherofMalakir.4067 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Alyster.9470 said:
    So I agree that the farm method posted on reddit which people farm the last boss of fractal 61 in about 10 seconds and make +100 gold per hour is broken, but.

    I have been farming this fractal with my guild for a long time with the usual way (doing every event and the boss from start to finish over and over again). 1 completion would take about 2 mins and yield around 25-30g per hour and a bit more if you have augmentations. This farm requires good team coordination, great knowledge of underwater skills, rotations and putting high effort all the time to be able to complete it as fast as possible and make it efficient.

    So you are saying to me that, tryharding underwater rotations, coordinating constantly and putting high effort into a content to make gold is not OK. But, going to SW or any world boss/meta event and pressing just 1-1-1 is completely fine and the right thing to do?! I dont even know if there is a content now that is rewarding for the effort you put in...

    A better nerf would be: “Players cannot collect final boss rewards in fractal 61 if they have not participated in the previous events”
    But instead you are timegating a fractal because of your own faulty design.

    I hope you can find a better way to solve the “abusive farm”.

    Exactly this is what anet is saying. They said it before when they reworked f40. I would argue that underwater is nowhere near balanced so maybe they changed it because of this but i doubt it. They want this game to be for casuals so tryhard players should earn the same as casuals. Their logic.

  • melandru.3876melandru.3876 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:

    @Alyster.9470 said:
    So I agree that the farm method posted on reddit which people farm the last boss of fractal 61 in about 10 seconds and make +100 gold per hour is broken, but.

    I have been farming this fractal with my guild for a long time with the usual way (doing every event and the boss from start to finish over and over again). 1 completion would take about 2 mins and yield around 25-30g per hour and a bit more if you have augmentations. This farm requires good team coordination, great knowledge of underwater skills, rotations and putting high effort all the time to be able to complete it as fast as possible and make it efficient.

    So you are saying to me that, tryharding underwater rotations, coordinating constantly and putting high effort into a content to make gold is not OK. But, going to SW or any world boss/meta event and pressing just 1-1-1 is completely fine and the right thing to do?! I dont even know if there is a content now that is rewarding for the effort you put in...

    A better nerf would be: “Players cannot collect final boss rewards in fractal 61 if they have not participated in the previous events”
    But instead you are timegating a fractal because of your own faulty design.

    I hope you can find a better way to solve the “abusive farm”.

    Exactly this is what anet is saying. They said it before when they reworked f40. I would argue that underwater is nowhere near balanced so maybe they changed it because of this but i doubt it. They want this game to be for casuals so tryhard players should earn the same as casuals. Their logic.

    can't agree more

    casual istan farmers complained that they can't do pala every 2 hours for the next 16 hours like jobless/on vacation farmers
    who could have known that a guy working 1 hour, or a guy doing the same job, the same wage but 16 hours would not earn the same amount

    what a mystery!

    lets balance everything so that everyone is the same, what a game that would be. you play fir 30 minutes a day? no problem, that guy playing 18 hours won't go ahead of you

  • Vinceman.4572Vinceman.4572 Member ✭✭✭✭

    The complaints are ridiculous, really =)
    I mean as a skilled player you can still play certain stuff others/"casuals" can't. Be it raid selling, multiple weekly raid clearing with different accounts or still farming shorter fractals with a coordinated team comp and the list goes on and on. Veteran players know how to make their gold and you should never rely on things like this procedure.
    The amount of gold you made with Aquatic was absolutely not in line and I can't take people seriously if they cannot see or even understand this.
    Maybe there are still some valuable open world farmings left (highly doubt SW is that good any longer because prices went low) but it's still lucrative to play daily fracs and being in a static raid squad with comfortable clearing time. With the daily login it is definitely more than 800g per month - a huge number that most of the players will never own or maybe once or twice in their whole GW2 career.
    Additionally there's the factor fun involved. It's very questionable that open world farming people are loving their work. On the other hand playing a little bit of challenging content (fracs, raids) with friends, guild mates or in pugs has always been very interesting and motivating - for me at least. If that's not the case you should really ask yourself what life has left for you.

    R.I.P. Build Templates, 15.10.2019

  • ButcherofMalakir.4067ButcherofMalakir.4067 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 29, 2019

    @Vinceman.4572 said:
    The complaints are ridiculous, really =)
    I mean as a skilled player you can still play certain stuff others/"casuals" can't. Be it raid selling, multiple weekly raid clearing with different accounts or still farming shorter fractals with a coordinated team comp and the list goes on and on. Veteran players know how to make their gold and you should never rely on things like this procedure.
    The amount of gold you made with Aquatic was absolutely not in line and I can't take people seriously if they cannot see or even understand this.
    Maybe there are still some valuable open world farmings left (highly doubt SW is that good any longer because prices went low) but it's still lucrative to play daily fracs and being in a static raid squad with comfortable clearing time. With the daily login it is definitely more than 800g per month - a huge number that most of the players will never own or maybe once or twice in their whole GW2 career.
    Additionally there's the factor fun involved. It's very questionable that open world farming people are loving their work. On the other hand playing a little bit of challenging content (fracs, raids) with friends, guild mates or in pugs has always been very interesting and motivating - for me at least. If that's not the case you should really ask yourself what life has left for you.

    Diference is that daily fractals are timegated. They offer very high rewards for the first clear but after that they are not worth it usualy. Raids are the same. High gold for first FC but then it provides almost nothing.
    On the other hand brainless farms like sw provide huge value and doesnt lose value with time. Tryhard players will profit almost the same as almost afkers.
    I used to be part of tryhard fractal 40 guild when it was possible. At that time you needed to be on less then 3 minutes per run to earn more then doing sw. 3 minutes was nowhere near doable for pug groups and so farming f40 wasnt worth it for most players. We were doing it under 2 minutes so it was worth for us. It required dedication and skill (otherwise pug runs would be able to do it right?)

    Then they changed this fractal because it was too lucrative for farmers. For 90 percent of players it was less lucrative then sw but sw wasnt changed and f40 was. Shortly after this I stopped doing anything other then raids simply because other parts of the game are not fun with this mindset.

    So I dont know that there were such farms. If I knew that this existed I would do it. That beeing said I am not supriced that it was removed at all.

  • melandru.3876melandru.3876 Member ✭✭✭✭

    conspiracy-theory incomming

    if gold gain is decent, the amount of gold to gems increases
    if gold gain is low, the amount of gems to gold increase

    from anet point of view, which is more appealing?

    probably this, and this alone is the real reason

  • Vinceman.4572Vinceman.4572 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:
    Diference is that daily fractals are timegated. They offer very high rewards for the first clear but after that they are not worth it usualy. Raids are the same. High gold for first FC but then it provides almost nothing.
    On the other hand brainless farms like sw provide huge value and doesnt lose value with time. Tryhard players will profit almost the same as almost afkers.
    I used to be part of tryhard fractal 40 guild when it was possible. At that time you needed to be on less then 3 minutes per run to earn more then doing sw. 3 minutes was nowhere near doable for pug groups and so farming f40 wasnt worth it for most players. We were doing it under 2 minutes so it was worth for us. It required dedication and skill (otherwise pug runs would be able to do it right?)

    Then they changed this fractal because it was too lucrative for farmers. For 90 percent of players it was less lucrative then sw but sw wasnt changed and f40 was. Shortly after this I stopped doing anything other then raids simply because other parts of the game are not fun with this mindset.

    So I dont know that there were such farms. If I knew that this existed I would do it. That beeing said I am not supriced that it was removed at all.

    If something is worth it is not objective it depends on the observer. I did some farming lvl 40 back in the days as well but not fully organized. Either with pugs or with guild mates brute forcing it dps-wise. It still was lucrative because I hate brainless farms and as fas as I remember I haven't kept it up more than 2 hours straight. On the other hand I ran a dungeon tour every day before HoT and the boreout there only came from time to time after doing this for years.
    In my opinion it's bs to compare the own "farm method" copper by copper. If you can gain something from content you actually like it's more worth it and you don't feel exhausted after playing it.
    To bring SW back into the discussion I already said it's highly questionable that this is so far ahead in terms of farming. The item prices went down but prices for fractal encryptions are just fine. So, choosing a short fractal and execute it well should be pretty much ok in comparison.
    Also, even if fractals offer very high rewards for the first clear and raids as well. This IS something. A raid full clear is what? 70-80g per week + shards that can be turned into gold as (I keep out chances on rare items). Fractal daily is around 20g, often more than that, especially with fractal god attunement.
    Overall you can make much more money with stuff you like than other people who need to visit things like SW and press 1 for hours.

    I still hold my point of view this method wasn't intended and unhealthy so it had to be stopped. The difference was way too huge to justify its existence. People need to stop complaining and whining about such a thing and maybe start working. The turn over from work into money into gold is so much better than to waste time farming it ingame even if you have a precarious employment in a fast food restaurant. ^^

    R.I.P. Build Templates, 15.10.2019

  • @melandru.3876 said:
    if gold gain is decent, the amount of gold to gems increases
    if gold gain is low, the amount of gems to gold increase

    from anet point of view, which is more appealing?

    The evidence is against that, especially since this farm was addressed rapidly while gold:gem rates were going down and/or lower than normal, compared to AB meta and Istan, which went unchanged while the rates went up.

    @melandru.3876 said:
    conspiracy-theory incomming
    probably this, and this alone is the real reason

    Pick one: conspiracy theories are, by their nature, improbable.

    Hype is the path to the dark side. Hype leads to unfulfilled expectations. Disappointment leads to anger. Anger leads to disgust. Disgust leads to "oh, new shinies! I'm back!"

  • @thrag.9740 said:
    I don't think it's fair to call this an exploit.

    You're quibbling over an ill-defined word. ANet's official statements on the meaning of "exploit" and their past actions include this sort of thing: just because the game allows it doesn't mean it cannot be an exploit.

    ANet's assessing the issue based on the outcome, not based on how it was achieved. For the game's health, there's no meaningful difference between economic destabilization caused by a bug and that caused by people finding a way around the mechanics to increase their rate of gain, relative to what was intended.

    For example, Mike O'Brien referred to Auric Basin Multi Loot as "exploity and is trashing the ecto market."

    That is: the question isn't "how did this issue come about?" Instead, ANet is asking, "is this bad for the game for people to use this loophole in the mechanics?"
    I suppose ANet could use a different word than exploit to distinguish between "glitching through walls" and "legit clearing that takes advantages of gaps in the time gates," but in the end, both are using holes in the implementation of a design to do something the developers did not intend.

    tl;dr the word choice is not that important, under the circumstances

    Hype is the path to the dark side. Hype leads to unfulfilled expectations. Disappointment leads to anger. Anger leads to disgust. Disgust leads to "oh, new shinies! I'm back!"

  • thrag.9740thrag.9740 Member ✭✭✭

    @Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:
    tl;dr the word choice is not that important, under the circumstances

    I agree it is undefined (as in they literally don't defined it in their user agreement. Although you think the distinction is not important, if you read the user agreement for this game (https://www.guildwars2.com/en/legal/guild-wars-2-user-agreement/), it clearly states:

    "You acknowledge that You may not, without signed written consent from a legally authorized representative of ArenaNet, do any of the following:"
    ...
    "Use, or provide others with, any “hack,” “cheat,” “exploit” or “mod”;"

    Therefore, it is actually quite important a distinction. The word's use is the basis for contract violation, which in turn would be the basis for punishment.

    Just because something is unbalanced doesn't magically make an exploit, nor does it mean it should be a bannable offense. For example, Anet decided that magic find influencing the identification of unidentified gear was too lucrative, so they nerfed it. That doesn't mean it was an exploit.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 29, 2019

    @thrag.9740 said:

    @Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:
    tl;dr the word choice is not that important, under the circumstances

    I agree it is undefined (as in they literally don't defined it in their user agreement. Although you think the distinction is not important, if you read the user agreement for this game (https://www.guildwars2.com/en/legal/guild-wars-2-user-agreement/), it clearly states:

    "You acknowledge that You may not, without signed written consent from a legally authorized representative of ArenaNet, do any of the following:"
    ...
    "Use, or provide others with, any “hack,” “cheat,” “exploit” or “mod”;"

    Therefore, it is actually quite important a distinction. The word's use is the basis for contract violation, which in turn would be the basis for punishment.

    Just because something is unbalanced doesn't magically make an exploit, nor does it mean it should be a bannable offense. For example, Anet decided that magic find influencing the identification of unidentified gear was too lucrative, so they nerfed it. That doesn't mean it was an exploit.

    But given Arenanet can define what they see as an exploit or cheat, it makes no difference.

    If they decide for example to call wall glitching exploits, then they could act on that. If they decide to call it cheating, they could also act on that.

    The point IWN was making was: the terminology is not of major consequence since the given terms can be stretched to incorporate almost any action which the developers might find undesirable or harmful to the game. Given how there is a lot of "skips" which very easily fall under any of those terms, it makes no difference what we call them in this thread.

    Even that is of no consequence in the end because Arenanet has total control over providing access to the game and total ownership over every ones account. If they wanted they could simply ban people out of the blue for giggles. It might certainly cause and uproar and negative publicity, but rest assured, legally they would be quite safe.

  • thrag.9740thrag.9740 Member ✭✭✭

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    But given Arenanet can define what they see as an exploit or cheat, it makes no difference.

    If they decide for example to call wall glitching exploits, then they could act on that. If they decide to call it cheating, they could also act on that.

    The point IWN was making was: the terminology is not of major consequence since the given terms can be stretched to incorporate almost any action which the developers might find undesirable or harmful to the game. Given how there is a lot of "skips" which very easily fall under any of those terms, it makes no difference what we call them in this thread.

    Even that is of no consequence in the end because Arenanet has total control over providing access to the game and total ownership over every ones account. If they wanted they could simply ban people out of the blue for giggles. It might certainly cause and uproar and negative publicity, but rest assured, legally they would be quite safe.

    Anet has total control of their game, that is true. However, they are still a business. Public perception is worth a lot of money to them. By calling all unbalanced content an exploit, your helping create a public perception that it is the players responsibility to test all content, determine if it is balanced, and ignore all content if it is not balanced. After all, 'it's an exploit'. And players are responsible to not exploit. That is exactly what Anet wants you to think so that they have unquestioned authority, and in the event they ever flex that muscle, they can avoid community backlash.

    Let me remind you what that looks like:
    https://www.pcgamer.com/3000-guild-wars-2-players-permanently-banned-for-karma-exploit/

    Here, players were expected to determine how much karma should be worth. Just note, that article is from aug 31 2012. Gw2 release was at aug 28 2012 (or a few days earlier for the early access buyers). With the game less than a week old, players were expected to recognize an, 'exploit' and determine it was such.

    Why was Anet able to get away with that? Because of the perception your promoting, i.e. all unbalanced content can just be called an exploit, and exploits are bannable offenses.

    There are certainly things that I think you could argue are clearly exploits. For example, when players figured out a single one of the faction provisioner's had no daily limit on exchanging armor for provisioner tokens, that was clearly an exploit. There was a clear pattern and precedent set that those tokens were meant to be a time gated. But hopping into a fractal just to kill the final boss and get rewards? There is a precedent set for that, players do it all the time. Have you ever joined an lfg along the lines of, 'fractal cm 100 at final boss'? If you have joined such a group, and gotten your loot, then you've utilized all the same tactics this farm utilized. I use to solo arah p2 to the final boss for fun, and then post an lfg, 'arah p2 at soled to final boss'. Were the players who joined my group exploiters? I don't think so, seems like there was a clear precedent that it was fine.

    Things that are not clearly exploits, such as content that is being played without utilizing any coding errors etc, should not be labeled as such, because it is essentially creating community consent to ban players. It places an undue standard of knowledge on players.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 30, 2019

    @thrag.9740 said:
    snip

    All true, but none of this changes the fact that the terminology used to describe different skips, advantages, developer unintended content bypassing, etc. ultimately is of little consequence. There is no legal ground to stand on as player.

    Also you are only looking at this one specific case while IWN was talking in general over anything which might be abused by gamers. I'll repeat: there is a lot of things which woild clearly fall under the term exploit or cheat in fractals.

    If at all, the example you gave is perfect at showing how terminology does not matter. The Karma weapon reforging, just like the Wintersday Amulett crafting, were in the end use of game mechanics. They became exploits by simple fact that the abuse of them and the outcome was very detrimental to the game. How this was called did not matter in the end.

  • zealex.9410zealex.9410 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 30, 2019

    Shame, i dont agree with the og exploit that you talked about but i think it should be perfectly acceptable for a group that dedicated time and effort to optimise their strategy and performance to benefit from that as opposed to someone who did non of those things.

    Anet heavily dislikes giving ppl the choice top farm instanced content which is kinda discouraging as i think being able to farm parts of the game after putting in the time and effort should be an option.

  • @zealex.9410 said:
    Anet heavily dislikes giving ppl the choice top farm instanced content which is kinda discouraging as i think being able to farm parts of the game after putting in the time and effort should be an option.

    That misses the bigger picture. ANet doesn't care about farming per se. They care if there's a huge disparity among farms, because that has profound impact on the economy and the motivation of non-farmers. Any multi-loot strategy (such as used in the original AB, the original Istan, and the AQ farm) gives extra loot to those doing the same content. That's different from the OP's stated strategy of just being efficient at repeating the same fractal, which was unfortunately a victim of ANet being forced to act quickly because the AQ-multiloot farm was widely publicized.

    Hype is the path to the dark side. Hype leads to unfulfilled expectations. Disappointment leads to anger. Anger leads to disgust. Disgust leads to "oh, new shinies! I'm back!"

  • zealex.9410zealex.9410 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:

    @zealex.9410 said:
    Anet heavily dislikes giving ppl the choice top farm instanced content which is kinda discouraging as i think being able to farm parts of the game after putting in the time and effort should be an option.

    That misses the bigger picture. ANet doesn't care about farming per se. They care if there's a huge disparity among farms, because that has profound impact on the economy and the motivation of non-farmers. Any multi-loot strategy (such as used in the original AB, the original Istan, and the AQ farm) gives extra loot to those doing the same content. That's different from the OP's stated strategy of just being efficient at repeating the same fractal, which was unfortunately a victim of ANet being forced to act quickly because the AQ-multiloot farm was widely publicized.

    I dont think 35g per hour is a huge disparity fron the second best farm. But as i oppened, its a shame.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 30, 2019

    @zealex.9410 said:

    @Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:

    @zealex.9410 said:
    Anet heavily dislikes giving ppl the choice top farm instanced content which is kinda discouraging as i think being able to farm parts of the game after putting in the time and effort should be an option.

    That misses the bigger picture. ANet doesn't care about farming per se. They care if there's a huge disparity among farms, because that has profound impact on the economy and the motivation of non-farmers. Any multi-loot strategy (such as used in the original AB, the original Istan, and the AQ farm) gives extra loot to those doing the same content. That's different from the OP's stated strategy of just being efficient at repeating the same fractal, which was unfortunately a victim of ANet being forced to act quickly because the AQ-multiloot farm was widely publicized.

    I dont think 35g per hour is a huge disparity fron the second best farm. But as i oppened, its a shame.

    You did read the part where OP referances people killing the Jellyfish in the fractal in 10 seconds and making 100 gold per hour?

    I guarantee you, the time gate was not put in place due to people making 30-35 gold per hour.

  • zealex.9410zealex.9410 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @zealex.9410 said:

    @Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:

    @zealex.9410 said:
    Anet heavily dislikes giving ppl the choice top farm instanced content which is kinda discouraging as i think being able to farm parts of the game after putting in the time and effort should be an option.

    That misses the bigger picture. ANet doesn't care about farming per se. They care if there's a huge disparity among farms, because that has profound impact on the economy and the motivation of non-farmers. Any multi-loot strategy (such as used in the original AB, the original Istan, and the AQ farm) gives extra loot to those doing the same content. That's different from the OP's stated strategy of just being efficient at repeating the same fractal, which was unfortunately a victim of ANet being forced to act quickly because the AQ-multiloot farm was widely publicized.

    I dont think 35g per hour is a huge disparity fron the second best farm. But as i oppened, its a shame.

    You did read the part where OP referances people killing the Jellyfish in the fractal in 10 seconds and making 100 gold per hour?

    I guarantee you, the time gate was not put in place due to people making 30-35 gold per hour.

    You did read the part where he talks about a normal efficient run which takes 2 or so minutes and yields 25 or so gold per hour.

    Thats what i was refering to, and i called a shame for also killing, im all for nerfing the 100g per hour farm. as i think that way too out of balance for the time and effort it takes.

  • lare.5129lare.5129 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 30, 2019

    how I understand, and I am sure - skips is a valid part of gw2 mechanic. This is next level of skilled players, and no matter this is mesmer blink or very good dps from party on boss - that is skip of someone mechanic too. And this is part of experience.

    So I don't see any problem that some skilled player till pro farm lever and some timegate is added.
    ofc strange at all that people try find gold in fractal, there is more easiest.
    Also I understand that is any farm content will be removed and timegated this is will be make some kill for all gameplay, because for very big mmo players farm ir valid and normal content. If this part will be removed at all we will lose only 5% players, or may be less. Now I try what it is 5% ? This is big numer or not ?
    this is for example very some numbers who kill last boss in last raid wing ..

    so I don't have answer this is ok or not.. Now it look a some of fail - but it is ok.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 30, 2019

    @zealex.9410 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @zealex.9410 said:

    @Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:

    @zealex.9410 said:
    Anet heavily dislikes giving ppl the choice top farm instanced content which is kinda discouraging as i think being able to farm parts of the game after putting in the time and effort should be an option.

    That misses the bigger picture. ANet doesn't care about farming per se. They care if there's a huge disparity among farms, because that has profound impact on the economy and the motivation of non-farmers. Any multi-loot strategy (such as used in the original AB, the original Istan, and the AQ farm) gives extra loot to those doing the same content. That's different from the OP's stated strategy of just being efficient at repeating the same fractal, which was unfortunately a victim of ANet being forced to act quickly because the AQ-multiloot farm was widely publicized.

    I dont think 35g per hour is a huge disparity fron the second best farm. But as i oppened, its a shame.

    You did read the part where OP referances people killing the Jellyfish in the fractal in 10 seconds and making 100 gold per hour?

    I guarantee you, the time gate was not put in place due to people making 30-35 gold per hour.

    You did read the part where he talks about a normal efficient run which takes 2 or so minutes and yields 25 or so gold per hour.

    Thats what i was refering to, and i called a shame for also killing, im all for nerfing the 100g per hour farm. as i think that way too out of balance for the time and effort it takes.

    and again, the nerf and time gate was implemented due to a completely different type of behavior. What does it matter if people were completing the fractal slower? The maximum return of a farm is of significance on if it gets nerfed or not. At least that's how it has been so far always.

    Arenanet decided that 5 minutes of a timer and thus 12 completions per hour is enough reward for this fractal.

  • lare.5129lare.5129 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 30, 2019

    today I was do t3 61 for recommended. Don't feel any timegate .. about that we talk ?

  • Linken.6345Linken.6345 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @lare.5129 said:
    today I was do t3 61 for recommended. Don't feel any timegate .. about that we talk ?

    Did you do 61 more then once? if not you wouldent be subjected to any timegate.
    You can only loot the lvl61 end boss chest every 5 mins.

  • Talindra.4958Talindra.4958 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 1, 2019

    It doesnt need a high team to farm it just need none lazy ppl who has nothing better to do to farm it away. And there are ppl who farm it like no tommorow and anet stop it for many good reasons btw i dont think ppl who farm like that has any special status to it.. just another farm group .. not solo great boss or low men raid
    Anet totally discouraged this type of farm by the way they try to fix it each time. So each time anet fix it.. players try to find another way around it.. dont you think you are going against anet wish.. wasting everyone time

    Death is Energy [DIE] in EU
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  • melandru.3876melandru.3876 Member ✭✭✭✭

    back to farming 96 :p

    3 power chronos, 1 dh and 1 diviner renegade.
    clean fast clears, chrono portal skips and every trash group that spawns after laserfield gets pulled for cleaving

    not as rewarding as the 61 farm, but still nice

  • lare.5129lare.5129 Member ✭✭✭✭

    The top skilled players sell tournaments, raids, titles, and etc. and diuring that get fun. Farm fractal is boring.

    @Linken.6345 said:
    You can only loot the lvl61 end boss chest every 5 mins.

    this is great and nothing bad. Also nothing bad if will be added 5 min tiemgate not only for 61.