Your DPS is Trash — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Your DPS is Trash

So I'm of 2 minds about DPS meters. I personally like the idea of being able to see my DPS compared to others in group so i can improve my game but a segment of the Raid community uses it purely at the end of an engagement to chastise or criticize other players. It's not healthy for the game mode in general to use it that way and honestly shouldn't be allowed. I've seen particular players, not naming names, not even playing dps but at the end of an engagement will call out people for DPS that's not even that low at the end of a fight and in some cases even kick based on that. These players don't take into account dps lost doing mechanics, dps lost reviving people etc. They just look at the overall dps readout at the end of the fight and use numbers to chastise other players. It's honestly about as toxic as you can be using an external tool that purely looks at dps output and doesn't show any kind of mechanic competence for the actual fight. It's a growing problem and toxic to the mode that turns a lot of people away from raiding. Giving constructive criticism is fine. Help players understand what about their build they can improve but don't be toxic. I've seen people at the end of every pull call out dps numbers nearly every pull and not think about anything other than numbers. I don't think allowing this kind of toxicity is healthy for the game in the long run because it just leads to less people raiding overall.

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Comments

  • Mordayn.6198Mordayn.6198 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 28, 2019

    Yeah this post isn't really about the need for a dps meter or the need to ban dps meters it's more about people who use it to be toxic. As I said, I like to use one myself to better my rotations. Maybe a report option for toxic behavior relating to dps meter would be worth looking into. The longer these kinds of players are floating around Raids and T4 the more players we lose for the content. It's not really an issue with the tool exactly just how a segment of the population misuses the tool.

  • Mordayn.6198Mordayn.6198 Member ✭✭✭

    Someone saying you are lacking dps isn't what we're talking about. We're talking about people displaying toxic behavior based on a third party program. It doesn't really fall under verbal abuse. It's more akin to like the report for abusing LFG. Something more like report for Toxic Behavior would be more accurate. Then anet would be able to monitor them and if the behavior is rampant they can act on it.

  • Mordayn.6198Mordayn.6198 Member ✭✭✭

    Again, not against DPS meters, i use it to make my personal DPS better and gauge how I'm doing. What we are talking about is the segment of toxic players that use DPS numbers as the end all be all gauge on how a person performed in the engagement when it only tells a portion of the fight. They're ruining the experience for other players and making raids seem like a toxic environment. Maybe we should start putting "DPS Metered" in the LFG title for those who want to be toxic like that. I'm just getting tired of every other pull someone running a meter calling out someone for hitting 1-2k under what they "think" they should be hitting. Obviously if a DPS is pulling 5-10k less dps than the other DPS that player has rotation issues and you can explain that. But the constant, "man your dps is trash" being thrown around just makes the Raid community look bad if the DPS they are doing will still get the kill.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Mordayn.6198 said:
    Again, not against DPS meters, i use it to make my personal DPS better and gauge how I'm doing. What we are talking about is the segment of toxic players that use DPS numbers as the end all be all gauge on how a person performed in the engagement when it only tells a portion of the fight. They're ruining the experience for other players and making raids seem like a toxic environment. Maybe we should start putting "DPS Metered" in the LFG title for those who want to be toxic like that. I'm just getting tired of every other pull someone running a meter calling out someone for hitting 1-2k under what they "think" they should be hitting. Obviously if a DPS is pulling 5-10k less dps than the other DPS that player has rotation issues and you can explain that.

    Report them for verbal abuse if they are indeed "abusing" you. There is no need to add an extra report option to be specific about dps meters, reporting for "toxic" behavior is pointless as it leads to the other kind of abuse. We've seen it time and again players complaining about toxicity on these forums, when it's sometimes revealed that there was nothing toxic about the situation, only some extra sensitive players that think anyone that calls them out is "toxic". Combating toxicity by adding toxicity isn't a very good idea.

  • zionophir.6845zionophir.6845 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 28, 2019

    idk but everytime i do some pve stuff (fractal/dungeons), they are either silent or not toxic...

    (i only do pve when i feel like it though. [mostly wvwvw])

  • zionophir.6845zionophir.6845 Member ✭✭✭

    arcdps obviously doesn't increase your damage.. it shows your damage and it is not needed coz you see the %health decrease when you hit a mob and if you equip the highest possible damage gear, what is the use of arcdps? seems redundant..

  • Warscythes.9307Warscythes.9307 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 28, 2019

    @zionophir.6845 said:
    arcdps obviously doesn't increase your damage.. it shows your damage and it is not needed coz you see the %health decrease when you hit a mob and if you equip the highest possible damage gear, what is the use of arcdps? seems redundant..

    Because your trait, skill choice and rotation can severely impact how much damage you do.

    Let me give you an example of Reaper rotation optimization, you can just go in shroud and press 4, auto attack until is gone, get enough life force with greatsword until shroud is up and go back again or do the proper rotation. It starts with greatsword, you do gs2, gs3, then gs5 and 4 at the same time, animation cancel gs5 with weapon swap, axe 2, drop well of suffering and go in shroud 4, auto attack until your soul barb buff runs out. Get out of shroud, axe 2, go back to greatsword, gs3, gs 2 and repeat the loop.

    This is not even the most proper rotation, using your abilities at the correct time with the correct combo is incredibly important to increase your damage output.

  • Shikaru.7618Shikaru.7618 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 28, 2019

    I dont think anyone is going to disagree with the op here. Dps meters shouldnt be used to chastise someone for low dps especially if you're not savvy with numbers and determining the context around those numbers. People who dont know how to read into context behind why certain dps values are low or dont bother ascertaining that context from the player in question should keep their mouth shut in party settings. In other words have the courtesy to ask why dps is low. More often than not theyll either self select out of the group or have a perfectly reasonable explanation like "I'm the only one hitting f on our downed supports".

  • Shikaru.7618Shikaru.7618 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 28, 2019

    Double post.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 29, 2019

    @zionophir.6845 said:
    arcdps obviously doesn't increase your damage.. it shows your damage and it is not needed coz you see the %health decrease when you hit a mob and if you equip the highest possible damage gear, what is the use of arcdps? seems redundant..

    And unfortunately this kind of thinking is exactly why the dps meters are here to stay.

    Hint: there's way more to dps than just the right gear. Build and rotation are at least as important (if not more). And estimating damage by looking at health bar decrease is an extremely primitive (and faulty) method. Especially in a squad environment.

    As long as the game mechanics make it so there's a massive gap in effectiveness between players, and as long as there will be game encounters where success chances are significantly impacted by effectiveness/skill level of participating players, people will want to be able to estimate said skill for everyone they are grouped for in such a content. Yes, it can lead to unpleasant behaviour when some players will be found wanting. It's something that cannot be avoided however - people have every right to NOT want with someone else, especially when they have a good reason to be selective.

    If you want to avoid such a situation, you can't do it by removing DPS meters (or other methods of checking skill/performance). You'd need to remove the reason why people are interested in that performance. So, basically, the only way would be to reduce the difficulty of the content. Only when your skill level won't matter for the completion chance, and won't significantly impact completion time the other players will stop caring about how good you are. The more impact your skill has on those things however, the bigger the number of players that will care. And the stronger their reaction if they'll think you're dragging them down.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • neven.3785neven.3785 Member ✭✭✭

    DPS meters do not belong in this game. Take WvW into account. Meter Humpers will blow cooldowns early, or they will run specs counter to whats best for the group, because their numbers appear higher. Meanwhile ignoring the effects of boon conversion, coordinated bursts and optimal group synergy. All for the sake of a few extra numbers.

  • zionophir.6845zionophir.6845 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 29, 2019

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @zionophir.6845 said:
    arcdps obviously doesn't increase your damage.. it shows your damage and it is not needed coz you see the %health decrease when you hit a mob and if you equip the highest possible damage gear, what is the use of arcdps? seems redundant..

    And unfortunately this kind of thinking is exactly why the dps meters are here to stay.

    Hint: there's way more to dps than just the right gear. Build and rotation are at least as important (if not more). And estimating damage by looking at health bar decrease is an extremely primitive (and faulty) method. Especially in a squad environment.

    As long as the game mechanics make it so there's a massive gap in effectiveness between players, and as long as there will be game encounters where success chances are significantly impacted by effectiveness/skill level of participating players, people will want to be able to estimate said skill for everyone they are grouped for in such a content. Yes, it can lead to unpleasant behaviour when some players will be found wanting. It's something that cannot be avoided however - people have every right to NOT want with someone else, especially when they have a good reason to be selective.

    If you want to avoid such a situation, you can't do it by removing DPS meters (or other methods of checking skill/performance). You'd need to remove the reason why people are interested in that performance. So, basically, the only way would be to reduce the difficulty of the content. Only when your skill level won't matter for the completion chance, and won't significantly impact completion time the other players will stop caring about how good you are. The more impact your skill has on those things however, the bigger the number of players that will care. And the stronger their reaction if they'll think you're dragging them down.

    of course when i said "highest possible damage" gear, it also entails that the traits, skills and sigils and runes contribute to that highest damage gear, rite?

    so what's the use of having highest damage gear if you are gimping yourself by using less damage additional gear/traits?

    put EVERYTHING on max and arcdps will have no use..

    tell me what's the purpose of arcdps again?
    to see that you can inflict the max damage..

    which can be shortcircuited/roundedoff by using the highest possible build..

    so you don't really need that arcdps..

    unless you can do something rottingly fishy with it..

  • Ubi.4136Ubi.4136 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @neven.3785 said:
    DPS meters do not belong in this game. Take WvW into account. Meter Humpers will blow cooldowns early, or they will run specs counter to whats best for the group, because their numbers appear higher. Meanwhile ignoring the effects of boon conversion, coordinated bursts and optimal group synergy. All for the sake of a few extra numbers.

    I usually roam or scout, and when I end up the same place as the tag, have had people (rarely) comment on my dps. My only reason for opposing meters, is because some of them come with "other" utilities. Like, when the same person who commented on dps, also asks why I am running a certain rune or sigil (meaning they can see my gear). No reason for any of those things to be in the game.

    Lost in the Maguuma (TC)
    For the geographically challenged, yes, Tarnished Coast is located IN the Maguuma Jungle.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 29, 2019

    @zionophir.6845 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @zionophir.6845 said:
    arcdps obviously doesn't increase your damage.. it shows your damage and it is not needed coz you see the %health decrease when you hit a mob and if you equip the highest possible damage gear, what is the use of arcdps? seems redundant..

    And unfortunately this kind of thinking is exactly why the dps meters are here to stay.

    Hint: there's way more to dps than just the right gear. Build and rotation are at least as important (if not more). And estimating damage by looking at health bar decrease is an extremely primitive (and faulty) method. Especially in a squad environment.

    As long as the game mechanics make it so there's a massive gap in effectiveness between players, and as long as there will be game encounters where success chances are significantly impacted by effectiveness/skill level of participating players, people will want to be able to estimate said skill for everyone they are grouped for in such a content. Yes, it can lead to unpleasant behaviour when some players will be found wanting. It's something that cannot be avoided however - people have every right to NOT want with someone else, especially when they have a good reason to be selective.

    If you want to avoid such a situation, you can't do it by removing DPS meters (or other methods of checking skill/performance). You'd need to remove the reason why people are interested in that performance. So, basically, the only way would be to reduce the difficulty of the content. Only when your skill level won't matter for the completion chance, and won't significantly impact completion time the other players will stop caring about how good you are. The more impact your skill has on those things however, the bigger the number of players that will care. And the stronger their reaction if they'll think you're dragging them down.

    of course when i said "highest possible damage" gear, it also entails that the traits, skills and sigils and runes contribute to that highest damage gear, rite?

    so what's the use of having highest damage gear if you are gimping yourself by using less damage additional gear/traits?

    put EVERYTHING on max and arcdps will have no use..

    tell me what's the purpose of arcdps again?
    to see that you can inflict the max damage..

    which can be shortcircuited/roundedoff by using the highest possible build..

    so you don't really need that arcdps..

    unless you can something rottingly fishy with it..

    Have you ever done any personal performance optimization in this game yourself?

    You are literally talking as though all this information drops into your lap. It does not.

    Not even going to ask about if you have ever managed a group or raid which had some issues. Good luck finding the problem player without information.

    As mentioned, we had this for years and the effect was way worse. Play warrior or gtfo. Play elementalist or gtfo. Play druid or gtfo. Etc.

    Your argument assumes the information provided by arcdps is still present and easily available when arcdps is not available. Totally flawed.

    Also if you assume that you do maximum performance by simply using the best possible build (if we assume for a moment you could find said build as easily without arc) you have definitly never done any challenging content or practice. There is a thread which deals exactly with how "best builds" might not be best suited for inexperienced players. You might want to read that one a bit.

  • Warscythes.9307Warscythes.9307 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 29, 2019

    @zionophir.6845 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @zionophir.6845 said:
    arcdps obviously doesn't increase your damage.. it shows your damage and it is not needed coz you see the %health decrease when you hit a mob and if you equip the highest possible damage gear, what is the use of arcdps? seems redundant..

    And unfortunately this kind of thinking is exactly why the dps meters are here to stay.

    Hint: there's way more to dps than just the right gear. Build and rotation are at least as important (if not more). And estimating damage by looking at health bar decrease is an extremely primitive (and faulty) method. Especially in a squad environment.

    As long as the game mechanics make it so there's a massive gap in effectiveness between players, and as long as there will be game encounters where success chances are significantly impacted by effectiveness/skill level of participating players, people will want to be able to estimate said skill for everyone they are grouped for in such a content. Yes, it can lead to unpleasant behaviour when some players will be found wanting. It's something that cannot be avoided however - people have every right to NOT want with someone else, especially when they have a good reason to be selective.

    If you want to avoid such a situation, you can't do it by removing DPS meters (or other methods of checking skill/performance). You'd need to remove the reason why people are interested in that performance. So, basically, the only way would be to reduce the difficulty of the content. Only when your skill level won't matter for the completion chance, and won't significantly impact completion time the other players will stop caring about how good you are. The more impact your skill has on those things however, the bigger the number of players that will care. And the stronger their reaction if they'll think you're dragging them down.

    of course when i said "highest possible damage" gear, it also entails that the traits, skills and sigils and runes contribute to that highest damage gear, rite?

    so what's the use of having highest damage gear if you are gimping yourself by using less damage additional gear/traits?

    put EVERYTHING on max and arcdps will have no use..

    tell me what's the purpose of arcdps again?
    to see that you can inflict the max damage..

    which can be shortcircuited/roundedoff by using the highest possible build..

    so you don't really need that arcdps..

    unless you can something rottingly fishy with it..

    I gave you the answer, which is just because you can copy and paste a build from snowcrows doesn't mean you can use it automatically. Be able to do rotation properly in both golem and an actual raid scenario contributes greatly to how much damage output you do. Think about real life for a second, if I give you and a professional racecar driver the literal fastest car in the world, you wouldn't really think you will be as fast as the professional driver just because you have the same car right? Be able to drive the car correctly and use it on a track is what matters. The same concept applies here.

  • Asum.4960Asum.4960 Member ✭✭✭

    Two things.

    For one, in years of weekly Raiding and daily Fractals and CM clears (although I don't PuG all that much any more for various reasons) I have seen this behavior maybe 3 times, if not less.
    Now there are a lot of toxic PuG's out there, but barely if ever do I see it being about Arc, and generally it's people getting agitated about repeatedly failed mechanics.
    Unless you have truly terrible DPS, I just don't see how it could be a common occurrence to get called out for that.
    On the other hand, you have people being able to play "non META" DPS's and not being kicked because Arc is showing that they are doing fine, even if things go wrong, all the time.

    Secondly, all these recollections about people doing fine and being alive while their group is dead and then them getting blamed for bad DPS, doesn't mean you are not actually at fault.
    A lot of good groups expect a certain level of DPS to phase a multitude of encounters, especially in Fractals, at certain points.
    If that doesn't happen then there is a good chance their builds are not designed to sustain the pressure that results in the failed phasing, or that they are caught off guard sicne they haven't failed that phasing in months and got so used to it or giving up to retry, looking at Arc to see who the issue is.
    You being the last person standing does not mean you weren't the issue causing things to fail due to low dps.

    Could people be more kind and explanatory in communicating that? Absolutely.
    But it's vastly better than going back to people getting kicked for low AP or some silly nonsense, or for playing off Meta DPS's, even if they may be top DPS.

    "As you know, those who you once called friends have become enemies." ~Glint

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 29, 2019

    @Ubi.4136 said:

    @neven.3785 said:
    DPS meters do not belong in this game. Take WvW into account. Meter Humpers will blow cooldowns early, or they will run specs counter to whats best for the group, because their numbers appear higher. Meanwhile ignoring the effects of boon conversion, coordinated bursts and optimal group synergy. All for the sake of a few extra numbers.

    I usually roam or scout, and when I end up the same place as the tag, have had people (rarely) comment on my dps. My only reason for opposing meters, is because some of them come with "other" utilities. Like, when the same person who commented on dps, also asks why I am running a certain rune or sigil (meaning they can see my gear). No reason for any of those things to be in the game.

    That is literally not possible or at least not possible with ToS compliant addons or a ToS compliant version of arcdps.

    What is possible though is people noticing effects which go off on certain sigils or runes. Quite a lot of runes or sigils can be easily extrapolated by their effect both visually or by boons/conditions/cleaneses/etc they provide. People in competative game modes like pvp and wvw pay especially close attention to those kind of things.

  • Walhalla.5473Walhalla.5473 Member ✭✭✭

    @zionophir.6845 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @zionophir.6845 said:
    arcdps obviously doesn't increase your damage.. it shows your damage and it is not needed coz you see the %health decrease when you hit a mob and if you equip the highest possible damage gear, what is the use of arcdps? seems redundant..

    And unfortunately this kind of thinking is exactly why the dps meters are here to stay.

    Hint: there's way more to dps than just the right gear. Build and rotation are at least as important (if not more). And estimating damage by looking at health bar decrease is an extremely primitive (and faulty) method. Especially in a squad environment.

    As long as the game mechanics make it so there's a massive gap in effectiveness between players, and as long as there will be game encounters where success chances are significantly impacted by effectiveness/skill level of participating players, people will want to be able to estimate said skill for everyone they are grouped for in such a content. Yes, it can lead to unpleasant behaviour when some players will be found wanting. It's something that cannot be avoided however - people have every right to NOT want with someone else, especially when they have a good reason to be selective.

    If you want to avoid such a situation, you can't do it by removing DPS meters (or other methods of checking skill/performance). You'd need to remove the reason why people are interested in that performance. So, basically, the only way would be to reduce the difficulty of the content. Only when your skill level won't matter for the completion chance, and won't significantly impact completion time the other players will stop caring about how good you are. The more impact your skill has on those things however, the bigger the number of players that will care. And the stronger their reaction if they'll think you're dragging them down.

    of course when i said "highest possible damage" gear, it also entails that the traits, skills and sigils and runes contribute to that highest damage gear, rite?

    so what's the use of having highest damage gear if you are gimping yourself by using less damage additional gear/traits?

    put EVERYTHING on max and arcdps will have no use..

    tell me what's the purpose of arcdps again?
    to see that you can inflict the max damage..

    which can be shortcircuited/roundedoff by using the highest possible build..

    so you don't really need that arcdps..

    unless you can something rottingly fishy with it..

    Well to be clear. With this thinking you can have BiS gear on every slot but you'll still be outdpsed by people who know their class and use exotic or even yellow gear. Why? Because one of the most important things for your performance is your rotation. The difference between a good and a bad rotation here can be as high as the difference between the damage of a T1 to a T2 set in another MMO percentage wise. Srsly you can be surprised by how low you damage can be even with BiS Gear if you don't train your rotation on the golem and on the bosses. You'd be between the banner slave and the support chrono with your DPS if you just copy stuff and don't think on how to make it work.

  • neven.3785neven.3785 Member ✭✭✭

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Ubi.4136 said:

    @neven.3785 said:
    DPS meters do not belong in this game. Take WvW into account. Meter Humpers will blow cooldowns early, or they will run specs counter to whats best for the group, because their numbers appear higher. Meanwhile ignoring the effects of boon conversion, coordinated bursts and optimal group synergy. All for the sake of a few extra numbers.

    I usually roam or scout, and when I end up the same place as the tag, have had people (rarely) comment on my dps. My only reason for opposing meters, is because some of them come with "other" utilities. Like, when the same person who commented on dps, also asks why I am running a certain rune or sigil (meaning they can see my gear). No reason for any of those things to be in the game.

    That is literally not possible or at least not possible with ToS compliant addons or a ToS compliant version of arcdps.

    What is possible though is people noticing effects which go off on certain sigils or runes. Quite a lot of runes or sigils can be easily extrapolated by their effect both visually or by boons/conditions/cleaneses/etc they provide. People in competative game modes like pvp and wvw pay especially close attention to those kind of things.

    In the past it was possible with one of the common DPS meters used. Also range check that told.you how many enemies are nearby. I left a guild I was a long time member of because they started interrogating members over specific slotted gear pieces or a minor trait choice. I wasn't the target but I'm of firm opinion that it was not how to run a guild especially since it violated terms of service. Other ways to git gud without such tools.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @neven.3785 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Ubi.4136 said:

    @neven.3785 said:
    DPS meters do not belong in this game. Take WvW into account. Meter Humpers will blow cooldowns early, or they will run specs counter to whats best for the group, because their numbers appear higher. Meanwhile ignoring the effects of boon conversion, coordinated bursts and optimal group synergy. All for the sake of a few extra numbers.

    I usually roam or scout, and when I end up the same place as the tag, have had people (rarely) comment on my dps. My only reason for opposing meters, is because some of them come with "other" utilities. Like, when the same person who commented on dps, also asks why I am running a certain rune or sigil (meaning they can see my gear). No reason for any of those things to be in the game.

    That is literally not possible or at least not possible with ToS compliant addons or a ToS compliant version of arcdps.

    What is possible though is people noticing effects which go off on certain sigils or runes. Quite a lot of runes or sigils can be easily extrapolated by their effect both visually or by boons/conditions/cleaneses/etc they provide. People in competative game modes like pvp and wvw pay especially close attention to those kind of things.

    In the past it was possible with one of the common DPS meters used. Also range check that told.you how many enemies are nearby. I left a guild I was a long time member of because they started interrogating members over specific slotted gear pieces or a minor trait choice. I wasn't the target but I'm of firm opinion that it was not how to run a guild especially since it violated terms of service. Other ways to git gud without such tools.

    The "tool" that allowed that was banned a very long time ago.

  • neven.3785neven.3785 Member ✭✭✭

    This was a very long time ago :p doesn't mean it's not possible, some people just don't care.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 29, 2019

    @neven.3785 said:
    This was a very long time ago :p doesn't mean it's not possible, some people just don't care.

    The tool was BGDM and the last time it was updated was over 1 year ago. Arcdps does not offer that function and the likelihood of someone simply deducing what runes and sigils one uses is a lot higher than expecting that every single person uses unsanctioned addons.

    Even more ridiculous to assume the use of such addons because:
    A.) the individual would have to either self engineer or update them
    B.) have access to someone who did A
    C.) found it worthwhile to call someone out over soemthing this trivial both endangering their account and exposing the tool used

    In general, IF people are using unsanction addons, they keep it hush hush. So no: there is no person calling people out over what runes/sigils they use thanks to a tool. There are players observant enough and adept enough at the game to deduce what runes/sigils are being used though.

  • neven.3785neven.3785 Member ✭✭✭

    I'm sorry, I do not recall I made assumptions, all i see is you assuming people aren't stupid. There is plenty of unsanctioned add-on use in this game, and some are indeed stupid enough to flaunt it. Not saying this instance the op speaks of is the case, all I said it was possible it can be done. In the instance I referenced, yes it was bgdm and it did get banned. While not as intrusive, I still hold the stance that arcdps doesn't belong in this game. It creates conflict and egos, especially over trivial content.

  • Vinceman.4572Vinceman.4572 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @neven.3785 said:
    I'm sorry, I do not recall I made assumptions, all i see is you assuming people aren't stupid. There is plenty of unsanctioned add-on use in this game, and some are indeed stupid enough to flaunt it. Not saying this instance the op speaks of is the case, all I said it was possible it can be done. In the instance I referenced, yes it was bgdm and it did get banned. While not as intrusive, I still hold the stance that arcdps doesn't belong in this game. It creates conflict and egos, especially over trivial content.

    It doesn't. Without ArcDPS we would have the situation we had before damage meters: Kick on sight due to having the wrong class, low AP (yes, this was a
    criterion for exclusion for not only a few players!), restrictive gear checks and so on. With ArcDPS you most likely join the squad/group specify your role & class and you would just start + everybody with the tool would be able to see if you can carry your weight for the team success. Otherwise the group will disband or the commander will just kick everyone out and look for new players and give it another try into the blue. The latter was terrible especially when you knew about your performance but you couldn't prove it.
    And about "plenty of unsanctioned add-on use in this game" you need to provide proof. Single usages aren't worth my time to discuss here because that wouldn't affect your regular raid attempts. If there are only some people in the dark using forbidden or unknown tools you wouldn't recognize them and they wouldn't reveal themselves that easily. Also, I highly doubt veteran raiders with thousands of hours and money spending in/on the game are so easy about losing their accounts. I definitely could imagine there is a handful but again it's an outlier and not the rule.

  • zionophir.6845zionophir.6845 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 29, 2019

    @Walhalla.5473 said:

    @zionophir.6845 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @zionophir.6845 said:
    arcdps obviously doesn't increase your damage.. it shows your damage and it is not needed coz you see the %health decrease when you hit a mob and if you equip the highest possible damage gear, what is the use of arcdps? seems redundant..

    And unfortunately this kind of thinking is exactly why the dps meters are here to stay.

    Hint: there's way more to dps than just the right gear. Build and rotation are at least as important (if not more). And estimating damage by looking at health bar decrease is an extremely primitive (and faulty) method. Especially in a squad environment.

    As long as the game mechanics make it so there's a massive gap in effectiveness between players, and as long as there will be game encounters where success chances are significantly impacted by effectiveness/skill level of participating players, people will want to be able to estimate said skill for everyone they are grouped for in such a content. Yes, it can lead to unpleasant behaviour when some players will be found wanting. It's something that cannot be avoided however - people have every right to NOT want with someone else, especially when they have a good reason to be selective.

    If you want to avoid such a situation, you can't do it by removing DPS meters (or other methods of checking skill/performance). You'd need to remove the reason why people are interested in that performance. So, basically, the only way would be to reduce the difficulty of the content. Only when your skill level won't matter for the completion chance, and won't significantly impact completion time the other players will stop caring about how good you are. The more impact your skill has on those things however, the bigger the number of players that will care. And the stronger their reaction if they'll think you're dragging them down.

    of course when i said "highest possible damage" gear, it also entails that the traits, skills and sigils and runes contribute to that highest damage gear, rite?

    so what's the use of having highest damage gear if you are gimping yourself by using less damage additional gear/traits?

    put EVERYTHING on max and arcdps will have no use..

    tell me what's the purpose of arcdps again?
    to see that you can inflict the max damage..

    which can be shortcircuited/roundedoff by using the highest possible build..

    so you don't really need that arcdps..

    unless you can something rottingly fishy with it..

    Well to be clear. With this thinking you can have BiS gear on every slot but you'll still be outdpsed by people who know their class and use exotic or even yellow gear. Why? Because one of the most important things for your performance is your rotation. The difference between a good and a bad rotation here can be as high as the difference between the damage of a T1 to a T2 set in another MMO percentage wise. Srsly you can be surprised by how low you damage can be even with BiS Gear if you don't train your rotation on the golem and on the bosses. You'd be between the banner slave and the support chrono with your DPS if you just copy stuff and don't think on how to make it work.

    so does arcdps dictate your "Rotation"?

    of course you don't just 1111111 the Violet Boss Right? assuming that you've played a single class for how many, 7 years, you don't just 111111 right? there are 9 other skills, right?

    and you can even not copy a build using a website and discover by yourselves that there are higher damage build customizations other than the meta builds in the website..

    i can just bring a warrior without banners and still damage is still high... its called "traits for weapon/skill cooldown reduction.."

    right?

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 29, 2019

    @zionophir.6845 said:

    @Walhalla.5473 said:

    @zionophir.6845 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @zionophir.6845 said:
    arcdps obviously doesn't increase your damage.. it shows your damage and it is not needed coz you see the %health decrease when you hit a mob and if you equip the highest possible damage gear, what is the use of arcdps? seems redundant..

    And unfortunately this kind of thinking is exactly why the dps meters are here to stay.

    Hint: there's way more to dps than just the right gear. Build and rotation are at least as important (if not more). And estimating damage by looking at health bar decrease is an extremely primitive (and faulty) method. Especially in a squad environment.

    As long as the game mechanics make it so there's a massive gap in effectiveness between players, and as long as there will be game encounters where success chances are significantly impacted by effectiveness/skill level of participating players, people will want to be able to estimate said skill for everyone they are grouped for in such a content. Yes, it can lead to unpleasant behaviour when some players will be found wanting. It's something that cannot be avoided however - people have every right to NOT want with someone else, especially when they have a good reason to be selective.

    If you want to avoid such a situation, you can't do it by removing DPS meters (or other methods of checking skill/performance). You'd need to remove the reason why people are interested in that performance. So, basically, the only way would be to reduce the difficulty of the content. Only when your skill level won't matter for the completion chance, and won't significantly impact completion time the other players will stop caring about how good you are. The more impact your skill has on those things however, the bigger the number of players that will care. And the stronger their reaction if they'll think you're dragging them down.

    of course when i said "highest possible damage" gear, it also entails that the traits, skills and sigils and runes contribute to that highest damage gear, rite?

    so what's the use of having highest damage gear if you are gimping yourself by using less damage additional gear/traits?

    put EVERYTHING on max and arcdps will have no use..

    tell me what's the purpose of arcdps again?
    to see that you can inflict the max damage..

    which can be shortcircuited/roundedoff by using the highest possible build..

    so you don't really need that arcdps..

    unless you can something rottingly fishy with it..

    Well to be clear. With this thinking you can have BiS gear on every slot but you'll still be outdpsed by people who know their class and use exotic or even yellow gear. Why? Because one of the most important things for your performance is your rotation. The difference between a good and a bad rotation here can be as high as the difference between the damage of a T1 to a T2 set in another MMO percentage wise. Srsly you can be surprised by how low you damage can be even with BiS Gear if you don't train your rotation on the golem and on the bosses. You'd be between the banner slave and the support chrono with your DPS if you just copy stuff and don't think on how to make it work.

    so does arcdps dictate your "Rotation"?

    Yes, in fact it does. It does so by telling you exactly how much damage comes from which effect, which attack, etc.

    It allows people to optimize rotations by providing analytical tools and ease of data summary.

    How have you come up with rotations so far? How have you judged and compared different rotations so far? How have you determined which traits boost your performance more, which less? Etc.

    @zionophir.6845 said:
    of course you don't just 1111111 the Violet Boss Right? assuming that you've played a single class for how many, 7 years, you don't just 111111 right? there are 9 other skills, right?

    Because pressing skills in different order can make as much of a difference as up to and beyond 30% of output. That's with exactly same traits, utilities, gear, and everything else similar present. Maybe give it a shot. Go to the damage golem with a snowcrows build and try to reach their performance or even get within 10% below their performance. Make a video of it (or simply screenshot your dps result), we'll wait.

    @zionophir.6845 said:

    and you can even not copy a build using a website and discover by yourselves that there are higher damage build customizations other than the meta builds in the website..

    Sure there are. All of them were found by people who spent a ton more time on this game and optimizing their build/rotation/setup than you have ever done as is very evident. People who come up with builds, rotations, and setups spend hours upon hours in testing, training and trying out things daily and weekly.

    Is there a build which performs better than meta builds by someone who has not used tools or extended work on the golem/arc? Very unlikely if not even impossible.

    @zionophir.6845 said:
    i can just bring a warrior without banners and still damage is still high... its called "traits for weapon/skill cooldown reduction.."

    right?

    Yeah, I'm going to assume you are simply trolling by now.

    @neven.3785 said:
    I'm sorry, I do not recall I made assumptions, all i see is you assuming people aren't stupid.

    No, I gave you a very reasonable explanation as to how players will likely act, how widespread unsanctioned addons are and how likely it is that people will deduce information on something which can easily be observed in game. You can be as paranoid as you want, truth of the matter is though: not every player is an addon whizz, not every player will risk their account and of that tiny amount of players who are wiling to use unsanctioned addons even less will use them to call people out over something as insignificant as which runes/sigils they use.

    @neven.3785 said:
    There is plenty of unsanctioned add-on use in this game, and some are indeed stupid enough to flaunt it. Not saying this instance the op speaks of is the case, all I said it was possible it can be done.

    I never said it can't be done.

    As to how many people use unsancationed addons: given that sanctioned addons see a very limited use, the chance of unsanctioned addons seeing widespread use is hilarious.

    @neven.3785 said:
    In the instance I referenced, yes it was bgdm and it did get banned. While not as intrusive, I still hold the stance that arcdps doesn't belong in this game. It creates conflict and egos, especially over trivial content.

    You can have that opinion, it does not change the fact that arcdps does not provide any of the functionality which would allow rune or sigil inspection.

  • DPS meters are good for groups who want to clear content fast because they either;
    A. Think speed equals skill
    B. Have a limited okay window and want to go through materials they have already done for the joy of it, without teaching it

    Typically I look for semi exp groups when I have plenty of time and don't care as I do not expect them to use DPS meters. I like for exp. groups when I am in a rush and expect my DOS to be monitored.

    If you are concerned about not hitting benchmarks play Druid, Healbrand, or Chrono. Their dogs sucks, but that isn't why they brought. Just keep everyone else alive and boon'd up and life is good.

  • Warscythes.9307Warscythes.9307 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 29, 2019

    @Mysticjedi.6053 said:
    DPS meters are good for groups who want to clear content fast because they either;
    A. Think speed equals skill
    B. Have a limited okay window and want to go through materials they have already done for the joy of it, without teaching it

    Typically I look for semi exp groups when I have plenty of time and don't care as I do not expect them to use DPS meters. I like for exp. groups when I am in a rush and expect my DOS to be monitored.

    If you are concerned about not hitting benchmarks play Druid, Healbrand, or Chrono. Their dogs sucks, but that isn't why they brought. Just keep everyone else alive and boon'd up and life is good.

    You are missing quite a bit of things in your assumptions.

    For example I use arcdps to improve my rotation because I want to get better at the game. Being able to execute your rotation well is what leads to faster speed, it doesn't mean I think the speed is the only thing. Is just a simple cause and effect. It also allow my group to spot key issues and help smooth the run. For example last night we cleared w7 again but ran into a couple issues with surviving. It turns out our team comp had a few issues with low protection uptime due to the druid not playing the class very well, so we swapped to a heal warhorn tempest who just spammed protection and it helped the run to be much better without people going down to random attacks. Can we spot the issue eventually? Probably, or we can just look at the report and see where things are going wrong. Dps tool does not mean it only tracks dps, it tracks rotations, it tracks boon uptime, it tracks even movement so you know who is doing which mechanic and how fast. It is a analytical tool that helps people improve so they can be better at playing the game.

  • Asum.4960Asum.4960 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 29, 2019

    @neven.3785 said:
    In the past it was possible with one of the common DPS meters used. Also range check that told.you how many enemies are nearby. I left a guild I was a long time member of because they started interrogating members over specific slotted gear pieces or a minor trait choice. I wasn't the target but I'm of firm opinion that it was not how to run a guild especially since it violated terms of service. Other ways to git gud without such tools.

    There is a reason those tools where banned and Arc was not. Not sure how that's relevant now.

    @zionophir.6845 said:
    so does arcdps dictate your "Rotation"?

    of course you don't just 1111111 the Violet Boss Right? assuming that you've played a single class for how many, 7 years, you don't just 111111 right? there are 9 other skills, right?

    and you can even not copy a build using a website and discover by yourselves that there are higher damage build customizations other than the meta builds in the website..

    i can just bring a warrior without banners and still damage is still high... its called "traits for weapon/skill cooldown reduction.."

    right?

    I'm not quite sure what your point here is.
    Arc doesn't dictate rotations, it simply let's you check if you or others are performing them up to standard and assists in the creation of them by providing feedback.

    Plenty of skills reduce DPS due to cast times or aftercasts. It's not just not pressing 1. Additionally a lot of DPS builds utilize combos/burst windows, aka creating damage modifiers and then using as many of the highest damage skills available as possible in them.
    If you don't know the rotation, there is plenty you can do wrong.

    The builds and rotations that are on those sites are there because they are the highest DPS achievable to current knowledge.
    If you came up with something higher, feel free to let the rest of us know.

    Bringing Banners is a DPS sacrifice Warriors make to increase Squad DPS, which is all that matters.
    So yes, not taking Banners should not only result in "still" high personal DPS, but higher.
    Personal DPS isn't strictly what you take a Banner Warrior for though.

    Again, not sure what the point is you are trying to make.

    "As you know, those who you once called friends have become enemies." ~Glint

  • borgs.6103borgs.6103 Member ✭✭✭

    A Damage Dealer's ONLY job is literally removing HP from the boss. If you're bad at that, I don't know what to say...
    ArcDPS is there to help you become better at that single task that you must accomplish every time you group up with other players. You can see if a healer's bad if the group's HP are not topped up. You can see the buffer's bad if the boons on your bar are incomplete or disappearing too fast. Though both can be blamed on bad positioning.
    However, you can't see which damage dealer's bad just by basing it on the HP loss of the enemy you're fighting because there's always more than one of them.

    Hi.

  • zionophir.6845zionophir.6845 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 29, 2019

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @neven.3785 said:
    In the past it was possible with one of the common DPS meters used. Also range check that told.you how many enemies are nearby. I left a guild I was a long time member of because they started interrogating members over specific slotted gear pieces or a minor trait choice. I wasn't the target but I'm of firm opinion that it was not how to run a guild especially since it violated terms of service. Other ways to git gud without such tools.

    There is a reason those tools where banned and Arc was not. Not sure how that's relevant now.

    @zionophir.6845 said:
    so does arcdps dictate your "Rotation"?

    of course you don't just 1111111 the Violet Boss Right? assuming that you've played a single class for how many, 7 years, you don't just 111111 right? there are 9 other skills, right?

    and you can even not copy a build using a website and discover by yourselves that there are higher damage build customizations other than the meta builds in the website..

    i can just bring a warrior without banners and still damage is still high... its called "traits for weapon/skill cooldown reduction.."

    right?

    I'm not quite sure what your point here is.
    Arc doesn't dictate rotations, it simply let's you check if you or others are performing them up to standard and assists in the creation of them by providing feedback.

    Plenty of skills reduce DPS due to cast times or aftercasts. It's not just not pressing 1. Additionally a lot of DPS builds utilize combos/burst windows, aka creating damage modifiers and then using as many of the highest damage skills available as possible in them.
    If you don't know the rotation, there is plenty you can do wrong.

    The builds and rotations that are on those sites are there because they are the highest DPS achievable to current knowledge.
    If you came up with something higher, feel free to let the rest of us know.

    Bringing Banners is a DPS sacrifice Warriors make to increase Squad DPS, which is all that matters.
    So yes, not taking Banners should not only result in "still" high personal DPS, but higher.
    Personal DPS isn't strictly what you take a Banner Warrior for though.

    Again, not sure what the point is you are trying to make.

    k.

    assuming that you bring the Strength and Discipline banners

    4 attributes gets to +100..

    ok

    compare that to berserker stance, which when used will make your adren full (try to know if how many times) and balanced stance (coz if you got CCed by the boss equals no damage). and traits that lengthen the stances (so more fast adrenaline recharge). Berserker Stance will make any conditions on you useless too. (Blind, Weakness, anything that can kitten or prevent damage)

    now go to the weapons = reduced recharge means weapon skill is almost being used everytime, yes? make your main weapons (GS/whatever) have reduced recharge

    and tactics - 3 - 3 -3

    and since your weapon is GS and you slotted the GS cooldown reduction, you have access to Might Makes Right?

    Right?

    so now compare Berserker Stance + Balanced Stance (on a stance duration increase) versus Str and Disc Banners

    and yeah, if the boss is condi heavy inflicting damage gimping/prevention, +400 on the attributes, even when it's shared, is almost incomparable/useless coz your constant uninterrupted damage became 0 with the Bosses condis..

  • Daddicus.6128Daddicus.6128 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @VDAC.2137 said:
    It’s not just in raids. I joined a fractal group via LFG already in the middle of a boss fight and several people down. I tried to simultaneously clear adds and work on getting people up but was not able to turn the tide. I was then told flat out that based on my DPS I was ****. :( No reason to argue or wait to be kicked. Now that situation in particular I did not go in trying to do my max rotation on the boss — what would have been the point??? But knowing that I my numbers are being watched and monitored... I know I am not the best but I think I pull my weight and I’m always working on improving... Anyway, I haven’t joined a PUG fractal group since then, which is my loss as I more often have had good experiences... :pensive:

    Look for lfg requests with the word chill or casual in them. (Or, something similar.) There ARE people who abuse even those, but it's a much smaller population.

  • Daddicus.6128Daddicus.6128 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Turkeyspit.3965 said:

    @VDAC.2137 said:
    I haven’t joined a PUG fractal group since then, which is my loss as I more often have had good experiences... :pensive:

    You are correct, that this is your loss. So why do that to yourself? Because some tool said something stupid in a fractal a while ago? Tools happen. Stupids things being said will happen. If you can learn from criticism, do so. But if it's just noise, leave the group and march. I promise you that tool is still out there playing in fractals, so why shouldn't you?

    He fought to a boss fight. He deserves the right to finish it. Why people who die can consider themselves entitled enough to kill the still-living person is the real question. They've already proven themselves inferior to the still-fighting player.

  • mindcircus.1506mindcircus.1506 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @neven.3785 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Ubi.4136 said:

    @neven.3785 said:
    DPS meters do not belong in this game. Take WvW into account. Meter Humpers will blow cooldowns early, or they will run specs counter to whats best for the group, because their numbers appear higher. Meanwhile ignoring the effects of boon conversion, coordinated bursts and optimal group synergy. All for the sake of a few extra numbers.

    I usually roam or scout, and when I end up the same place as the tag, have had people (rarely) comment on my dps. My only reason for opposing meters, is because some of them come with "other" utilities. Like, when the same person who commented on dps, also asks why I am running a certain rune or sigil (meaning they can see my gear). No reason for any of those things to be in the game.

    That is literally not possible or at least not possible with ToS compliant addons or a ToS compliant version of arcdps.

    What is possible though is people noticing effects which go off on certain sigils or runes. Quite a lot of runes or sigils can be easily extrapolated by their effect both visually or by boons/conditions/cleaneses/etc they provide. People in competative game modes like pvp and wvw pay especially close attention to those kind of things.

    In the past it was possible with one of the common DPS meters used. Also range check that told.you how many enemies are nearby. I left a guild I was a long time member of because they started interrogating members over specific slotted gear pieces or a minor trait choice. I wasn't the target but I'm of firm opinion that it was not how to run a guild especially since it violated terms of service. Other ways to git gud without such tools.

    The "tool" that allowed that was banned a very long time ago.

    One of the tools that did was banned, yes. The other one stopped distributing a version that had the same TOS breaking features publicly and was then greenlighted by the developers.

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