Your DPS is Trash - Page 8 — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Your DPS is Trash

1234568

Comments

  • @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Listen, if you died immediately, you were far off from worrying about meta or top tier performance. Focus 5 does both: it protects your baseline aegis so that your uptime on Unscathed Contender (https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Unscathed_Contender) is better which is most important right when you start the fight since the DH rotation is very burst heavy. It also explodes if not triggered. The first benefit FAR outweighs the second (both in survivability and dps).

    General Question because i didnt run fractals in ages.
    Do people seriously run UC at the Chaos endboss or fractals in general?

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @RaidsAreEasyAF.8652 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Listen, if you died immediately, you were far off from worrying about meta or top tier performance. Focus 5 does both: it protects your baseline aegis so that your uptime on Unscathed Contender (https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Unscathed_Contender) is better which is most important right when you start the fight since the DH rotation is very burst heavy. It also explodes if not triggered. The first benefit FAR outweighs the second (both in survivability and dps).

    General Question because i didnt run fractals in ages.
    Do people seriously run UC at the Chaos endboss or fractals in general?

    Firebrigade and FB support in general allow for a lot better aegis uptime in fractals. Given most fractals don't have pulsing damage like raids, it is a lot easier to maintain aegis now for all players.

    I could have obviously also just refered to scholar rune uptime being lost when damaged which again would have made any benefits from saving Focus 5 insignificant.

  • Zero.6082Zero.6082 Member ✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Zero.6082 said:
    Also totally out of the blue but how is a DPS meter on other players not an invasion of privacy?

    That's something those that have no clue what privacy is would say.

    The reason I think it’s an invasion of privacy is because your taking game data from my character and computer with out my permission. If guild wars 2 won’t let other people look at my gear because toxic invasion of privacy. Then why can some one get those number produced by my actions and set up. Example if I am hitting 22k on rotation of a holosmith and the meta is 26k then it is simple math to realize I don’t have perfect gear. Thus you now know everything about me with out me telling you. But your statement puzzles me..... this is the new normal style of argument which is if you can’t answer the question you insult the asker. My question is why can’t you answer the question. If it was so simple then you could have answered. This is the entire point of the thread... toxicity and by insulting me instead of answering the question reinforces the reason why we need to remove the meters, because of statements like this where it could be used for education and instead are used for power and points. If you can’t use the tool in a civil and productive manner and it is really an invasion of privacy. Then we should take away the tools which bullies use to gain power. It’s a video game. I pose another question to a forum if you build exactly as what a website tells you and then do the rotation it tells you..... are you playing the game or is the website? At that point I can argue no one who does raids or fractals are no more then a person who memorized a dance dance revolution set. You didn’t play the game, someone else forced you to play.....

  • yann.1946yann.1946 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Zero.6082 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Zero.6082 said:
    Also totally out of the blue but how is a DPS meter on other players not an invasion of privacy?

    That's something those that have no clue what privacy is would say.

    The reason I think it’s an invasion of privacy is because your taking game data from my character and computer with out my permission. If guild wars 2 won’t let other people look at my gear because toxic invasion of privacy. Then why can some one get those number produced by my actions and set up. Example if I am hitting 22k on rotation of a holosmith and the meta is 26k then it is simple math to realize I don’t have perfect gear. Thus you now know everything about me with out me telling you. But your statement puzzles me..... this is the new normal style of argument which is if you can’t answer the question you insult the asker. My question is why can’t you answer the question. If it was so simple then you could have answered. This is the entire point of the thread... toxicity and by insulting me instead of answering the question reinforces the reason why we need to remove the meters, because of statements like this where it could be used for education and instead are used for power and points. If you can’t use the tool in a civil and productive manner and it is really an invasion of privacy. Then we should take away the tools which bullies use to gain power. It’s a video game. I pose another question to a forum if you build exactly as what a website tells you and then do the rotation it tells you..... are you playing the game or is the website? At that point I can argue no one who does raids or fractals are no more then a person who memorized a dance dance revolution set. You didn’t play the game, someone else forced you to play.....

    We'll first even if you do 22 and the Meta is 26 doesn, t mean your gear is wrong, the boon uptime could be bad, their could be a mistake in your rotation etc.

    About the privacy, consider your runninga raiding with 9 people who know their own dps, your dps can be easily calculated without using any of your actions, would you consider your dps private in that case?

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 18, 2019

    @Zero.6082 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Zero.6082 said:
    Also totally out of the blue but how is a DPS meter on other players not an invasion of privacy?

    That's something those that have no clue what privacy is would say.

    The reason I think it’s an invasion of privacy is because your taking game data from my character and computer with out my permission.

    No, they're taking game data about your performance from their computer (Arc is completely unable to read anything from someone else's computer). The same as what happens when they look at you and see your wardrobe choices and dyes used.

    If guild wars 2 won’t let other people look at my gear because toxic invasion of privacy.

    They can look at your gea, because how that gear looks is a public information. What they can't do is look at your gear's stats, because that is private.
    So, the gear you use, traits you selected, skills you have are private. The outward look of gear, and your effectiveness when in encounter with othher players in your party is however not private.

    Then why can some one get those number produced by my actions and set up. Example if I am hitting 22k on rotation of a holosmith and the meta is 26k then it is simple math to realize I don’t have perfect gear.

    Not really. There may be differences in gear. There maby be differences in traits. There may be differences in rotation. Or there may be some other things that lower your dps (like, for example, not dealing with mechanics too well). Someone with nonstandard build and gear may still perform better than a pure meta build, if the former does mechanics better than the latter, for example.

    I pose another question to a forum if you build exactly as what a website tells you and then do the rotation it tells you.....

    No. But if i do make changes, i generally know why i made them, and why that made sense to me.

    At that point I can argue no one who does raids or fractals are no more then a person who memorized a dance dance revolution set.

    People that've seen the meta builds, and try to copy them without understanding them (and thus having no idea why their end result is so much worse) are a plague. Notice how the dps meters can easily point them out - because they don't understand the build, they won't be able to perform in it well. And that will show.

    Again, dps meters are completely egalitarian in their judgement. It doesn't matter how you arrive at the end result - it's only that end result that counts. When it's good, nobody cares how you did it. They only care when it isn't good. And only when someone hopes to make it better by a method different than switching the problematic player out.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 18, 2019

    @Zero.6082 said:
    But your statement puzzles me..... this is the new normal style of argument which is if you can’t answer the question you insult the asker. My question is why can’t you answer the question. If it was so simple then you could have answered.

    The replies above this one have all the extra info you need but to answer this part, I did answer your question. If you know what privacy is, or rather private data/information, then you should know dps meters do not violate them. The fact that you didn't like the answer is irrelevant.

  • Zero.6082Zero.6082 Member ✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Zero.6082 said:
    But your statement puzzles me..... this is the new normal style of argument which is if you can’t answer the question you insult the asker. My question is why can’t you answer the question. If it was so simple then you could have answered.

    The replies above this one have all the extra info you need but to answer this part, I did answer your question. If you know what privacy is, or rather private data/information, then you should know dps meters do not violate them. The fact that you didn't like the answer is irrelevant.

    But you didn’t answer the question. Others did. Which partially makes sense. But ok I’ll take their arguments and build on them sense you didn’t provide anything but an insult twice. So question again if their are so many factors in dps that means the meters are subjective calls. Thus, you can’t use them as a base of measure. Further more that is data I am contributing and producing for the server. Thus yes you pull the data from the server but how did they get the data? By using my data. If I make a few tweaks that effects my data so simple cause and effect they are releasing my data to you if you have that app. Simple fact is if it was to be part of the game why is it not in the game. Answer I guess at is, that cause and effect reason and they can bounce the argument we allowed it but that is the players choice. Especially when it’s contradicting their creed of play how you want and don’t be mean to players who have a build you don’t like. I mean why don’t they just display your data for all to see if they wanted people to see the data you produce.... I think it’s appeasements to the elite raiding class not a policy they wanted, to get you to play.

    Moreover, this an argument about toxicity from the use of the meters. Now most can argue that a personal dps meter makes sense for education and I am all for that. But dps meters for a group is an act of big brothers watching you and a way of players to control other players. It’s simple oppression at its finest of play my way or else mentally with a subjective twist, because no one here has the data for every single dps example. It also adds more stress because people preform worse under pressure, so you could be a root cause to their lack of dps. Thus,you can’t be objective. If you want me to use it properly I need to know the max consistent dps for every class, With every party combination, with every boss. Which we can all agree is impossible especially because it would have to be redone as soon as they patch. The golems don't count because that is perfect world, perfect paper.

    So in conclusion personal dps meter good and education argument is valid. Dps meter for the team is you subjecting your control over me using my data provided to the server to get an outcome you want. Thus the entire point of toxic gameplay. I can conclude that if you are for team dps meters you are automatically for toxic gameplay. Mostly because you can’t educate me on subjective calls, only complain or kick when I don’t give you the results you want. People have beat the bosses in greens so no one here can tell me dps or stats is the factor for win or lose. It’s efficiency, group chemistry, and hard work. None of which can be measured by a toxic calculation. A dead player provides 0 dps. Reviving your downed team mate is 0. I think it’s the culture we live in that causes the trouble, but we have to stop measuring everything. What is the number measurement for a good parent? A best friend? A great video game team? But hey you win I don’t raid because of this. So you got what you wanted I think? Less players, playing, less support for the content?

    Remember everyone big brother is watching you!

  • Zero.6082Zero.6082 Member ✭✭

    @Cameron.6450 said:
    Guys I want to play in my local football team but I don't want anyone to watch what I do when the ball comes near me in case they decide they don't want me on the team anymore.

    You forgot the import distinction. It’s not the willingness to play the sport. It’s forcing me to play a position I don’t want to play, because you said so. Argument from authority. If the person doesn’t want to fight kick. But if they are trying... well kick them to because they are not Payton Manning.....

  • Zero.6082Zero.6082 Member ✭✭

    @Zero.6082 said:

    @Cameron.6450 said:
    Guys I want to play in my local football team but I don't want anyone to watch what I do when the ball comes near me in case they decide they don't want me on the team anymore.

    You forgot the import distinction. It’s not the willingness to play the sport. It’s forcing me to play a position I don’t want to play, because you said so. Argument from authority. If the person doesn’t want to fight kick. But if they are trying... well kick them to because they are not Payton Manning.....

    And I also forgot, pug groups are like recreational sports.... do you kick players who are bad in recreational sports? No, but in gw2 people kick if they are not pro players in recreational sports..... I push this to everyone who argues on the thread. If you want perfect players. Pay for all their gear and give them a salary. Then you can achieve your results.... if not we’ll sorry but you have to work with what you got. Recreational sports live and die by the willingness of people to play. The more you chastise.... the less they are willing to play and the less players means less support for the game as a whole.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 18, 2019

    @Zero.6082 said:

    @Cameron.6450 said:
    Guys I want to play in my local football team but I don't want anyone to watch what I do when the ball comes near me in case they decide they don't want me on the team anymore.

    You forgot the import distinction. It’s not the willingness to play the sport. It’s forcing me to play a position I don’t want to play, because you said so. Argument from authority. If the person doesn’t want to fight kick. But if they are trying... well kick them to because they are not Payton Manning.....

    Novody is forcing you to do anything.

    Here is what it comes down to:
    A raid boss, fractal, etc requires a certain performance, usually a certain amount of damage over a certain amount of time. In order to perform said damage, all players present have to survive long enough thus they have to adhere to the bosses/encounters attacks. All of this is made easier with different roles like support, tank, damage dealer, etc.

    Groups are made with certain requirements. When you join one of those groups, you either fullfill one of the requirements the other 4 or 9 people have setup, or you get booted. You can also make your own group and make your own requirements. You don't get to dictate to the other people in the group what they have and have not to accept in performance unless it's your group. In which you'd still need to have concensus with most of the players or else they might leave.

    Welcome to team sports 101.

    @Zero.6082 said:

    @Zero.6082 said:

    @Cameron.6450 said:
    Guys I want to play in my local football team but I don't want anyone to watch what I do when the ball comes near me in case they decide they don't want me on the team anymore.

    You forgot the import distinction. It’s not the willingness to play the sport. It’s forcing me to play a position I don’t want to play, because you said so. Argument from authority. If the person doesn’t want to fight kick. But if they are trying... well kick them to because they are not Payton Manning.....

    And I also forgot, pug groups are like recreational sports.... do you kick players who are bad in recreational sports? No, but in gw2 people kick if they are not pro players in recreational sports..... I push this to everyone who argues on the thread. If you want perfect players. Pay for all their gear and give them a salary. Then you can achieve your results.... if not we’ll sorry but you have to work with what you got. Recreational sports live and die by the willingness of people to play. The more you chastise.... the less they are willing to play and the less players means less support for the game as a whole.

    Recreational team sports are just like professional sports. A soccer team needs a goaly and different positions for their players. You get to decide how ambitious the team you join can be.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 18, 2019

    @Zero.6082 said:
    So question again if their are so many factors in dps that means the meters are subjective calls.

    No, the meters are completely objective. They don't interpret the data, they only provide it. What you do with that data is up to you.

    Thus, you can’t use them as a base of measure.

    You don't. You compare to other players.

    Further more that is data I am contributing and producing for the server. Thus yes you pull the data from the server but how did they get the data? By using my data. If I make a few tweaks that effects my data so simple cause and effect they are releasing my data to you if you have that app.

    First, you assume they are releasing the data. They don't. They release the effects of your data. Not the data itself. Second, you assume it's your data, when it isn't. You actually agreed on Anet doing whatever they want with that data the moment you signed into this game. Third, you assume it's them giving out that data, when it is you, by participating in a group content, that is sharing it with others. By your own choice.

    I gave you an example already: the skins you use for your armor. These may be private, but the moment you decide to appear in a place where others can see you, you have voluntarily shared that data with them.

    Simple fact is if it was to be part of the game why is it not in the game.

    Two reasons. First, Anet didn't anticipate the need for it - and in fact, there wasn't any serious demand for it up until raids. Second, while Anet is not against the use of this tool, it doesn't mean they want to promote it, or want it to be used by everyone. Now it's still in hands of a relatively minor group - the group that does care about stuff like ingame effectiveness. Would you really want everyone to be using it? In open world, for example?

    Answer I guess at is, that cause and effect reason and they can bounce the argument we allowed it but that is the players choice.

    Yes, it's the players' choice. You don't have to play with people that use dps meters.

    Especially when it’s contradicting their creed of play how you want and don’t be mean to players who have a build you don’t like.

    If someone is mean to you because you have a build they don't like, do report him. If they are however concerned with your effectivness in a content that requires certain level of it, it's fully their right. If you want to blame something, blame the content for demanding you perform above your ability. Not the players for not wanting to pick up the slack after you.

    I mean why don’t they just display your data for all to see if they wanted people to see the data you produce....

    Be careful what you wish for. Anet might provide.

    I think it’s appeasements to the elite raiding class not a policy they wanted, to get you to play.

    Perhaps. On the other hand it is a tool practically uniformly used only in content made for those very same players. Even if someone has it running in Open World, nobody really looks at the output, and they definitely do not call out people for what they see. Unless they're kitten, but they'd be kitten even without the tool.

    Moreover, this an argument about toxicity from the use of the meters. Now most can argue that a personal dps meter makes sense for education and I am all for that. But dps meters for a group is an act of big brothers watching you and a way of players to control other players. It’s simple oppression at its finest of play my way

    If an encounter requires certain level of effectiveness to succesfully complete, then it's no longer "play my way". And having other players demand you fulfill those requirements is neither toxicity, nor opression. Again, if it's a problem, it is a problem with the content itself, not with the tool.

    If you want me to use it properly I need to know the max consistent dps for every class, With every party combination, with every boss.

    It's called gw2raidar.

    Which we can all agree is impossible especially because it would have to be redone as soon as they patch.

    And that's exactly what happens.

    I can conclude that if you are for team dps meters you are automatically for toxic gameplay.

    You are assuming a lot. But okay, i'm a toxic raider. Yep, that's me.

    Mostly because you can’t educate me on subjective calls, only complain or kick when I don’t give you the results you want.

    Yes, that's how it usually works. If you can't provide the results, you're out. Unless you're playing with friends that are willing to dedicate their time and effort to helping you out (either by teaching or carrying you). Or playing the content where it isn't important.

    People have beat the bosses in greens so no one here can tell me dps or stats is the factor for win or lose.

    I checked that log from Dhuum CM. They had better dps than i usually have in ascended. Yes, dps was definitely a factor.
    (hint: if you were to play as good as people that clear the bosses in greens, nobody would say a word to you about your dps).

    Reviving your downed team mate is 0. I think it’s the culture we live in that causes the trouble, but we have to stop measuring everything. What is the number measurement for a good parent? A best friend? A great video game team? But hey you win I don’t raid because of this. So you got what you wanted I think? Less players, playing, less support for the content?

    It's the content difficulty that made you not play raids. Not the meters. Without the meters the difficulty would still be the same - and other players would be even more demanding, because it wouldn't be as easily to see who passes muster and who doesn't.

    Remember everyone big brother is watching you!

    Of course. This is an MMO, not single player. As long as you play in a group, you are always watched.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Vinceman.4572Vinceman.4572 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 18, 2019

    @Zero.6082 said:
    But you didn’t answer the question. Others did. Which partially makes sense. But ok I’ll take their arguments and build on them sense you didn’t provide anything but an insult twice.

    He didn't insult you. He just told you again that the dmg stats you are performing in a group/squad are not private information. Anet said so and they make the rules. He is absolutely right when saying you didn't like the answer but that this is completely irrelevant in terms of straight facts!

    So question again if their are so many factors in dps that means the meters are subjective calls. Thus, you can’t use them as a base of measure. Further more that is data I am contributing and producing for the server. Thus yes you pull the data from the server but how did they get the data? By using my data. If I make a few tweaks that effects my data so simple cause and effect they are releasing my data to you if you have that app. Simple fact is if it was to be part of the game why is it not in the game. Answer I guess at is, that cause and effect reason and they can bounce the argument we allowed it but that is the players choice. Especially when it’s contradicting their creed of play how you want and don’t be mean to players who have a build you don’t like. I mean why don’t they just display your data for all to see if they wanted people to see the data you produce.... I think it’s appeasements to the elite raiding class not a policy they wanted, to get you to play.

    Allowing to use dps meters is not in the slightest a contradiction of play how you want. You are still able to join whatever group you can and you want but if the group has requirements you should fulfill them or take the risk of getting booted. We have to address explicitly that requirements of groups were more strict before the introduction of dps meters in GW2. I don't know if you have already played before HoT and raids. I have and it was not easy for non-meta people to run dungeons. Either it took very long outside of the easier dungeons or you had to abandon runs for example Crucible of Eternity and Arah. I led a lot of players through there to teach them the dungeons and often ended with leavers, soloing/duoing bosses with a mate or even complete disbanding groups because they had no endurance and were impatient. In standard "exp zerker" runs you didn't run into those issues and you were fast. Of course they were not 100% perfectly but when I wanted to have my full daily dungeon tour it was always doable in those groups but not realistic in groups without meta and/or experienced players. In addition I would estimate that far more than 90% of the player base has no clue about being efficient even in shorter dungeons. We realized that when we were 3-4 guild members carrying 1-2 pugs with us and at the end they wrote: "How did that go so fast? I've never seen this." and we didn't exploit anything. Even today people refuse to play Arah although the hardest path can be done in under 20 minutes if you know what you are doing.

    Moreover, this an argument about toxicity from the use of the meters. Now most can argue that a personal dps meter makes sense for education and I am all for that. But dps meters for a group is an act of big brothers watching you and a way of players to control other players. It’s simple oppression at its finest of play my way or else mentally with a subjective twist, because no one here has the data for every single dps example. It also adds more stress because people preform worse under pressure, so you could be a root cause to their lack of dps. Thus,you can’t be objective. If you want me to use it properly I need to know the max consistent dps for every class, With every party combination, with every boss. Which we can all agree is impossible especially because it would have to be redone as soon as they patch. The golems don't count because that is perfect world, perfect paper.

    1. and this won't convince you: If you do your job you won't hear anything about your dps in pugs. That's a fact. I already stated that in one of my posts before.

    2. You choose to join the relevant groups for you. If you are afraid of being monitored don't join those groups with requirements. For fractals this is easy by looking for the tag "chilled run" or similar lfgs. If there's none set up your own lfg and you'll get enough relaxed players. The only problem that can occur is that you won't manage several encounters. Mai Trin, the first room in Underground Facility, the ooze in Thaumanova, Nightmare, Shattered Observatory, Twilight Oasis & Siren's Reef because those have mechanics a lot of "relaxed" players don't know or are not in the mood to deal with.

    3. You don't need to know every dps benchmark and every output on every boss of every class. You just need a proper understanding of how much you could be doing and then estimate around that. There are very easy bosses like Mursaat Overseer which is basically a moving golem from the Lions Arch Aerodrome and harder ones where people have to stop their damage, leave the squad for mechanics so their dps will go down of course. Nevertheless a dps meter can show you the incredible differences if they occur. There's a lot of buffer but not indefinitely and if you join as a dps class and pull off 5k in total it means that you just press 1 like the open world crew on world bosses and with that you won't kill a raid boss (outside of an almost full heal squad tanking through enrage timer). And it's those numbers that people call out not if top dps is 24k and you do 20k for example.

    So in conclusion personal dps meter good and education argument is valid. Dps meter for the team is you subjecting your control over me using my data provided to the server to get an outcome you want. Thus the entire point of toxic gameplay. I can conclude that if you are for team dps meters you are automatically for toxic gameplay. Mostly because you can’t educate me on subjective calls, only complain or kick when I don’t give you the results you want. People have beat the bosses in greens so no one here can tell me dps or stats is the factor for win or lose. It’s efficiency, group chemistry, and hard work. None of which can be measured by a toxic calculation. A dead player provides 0 dps. Reviving your downed team mate is
    2. I think it’s the culture we live in that causes the trouble, but we have to stop measuring everything. What is the number measurement for a good parent? A best friend? A great video game team? But hey you win I don’t raid because of this. So you got what you wanted I think? Less players, playing, less support for the content?

    Remember everyone big brother is watching you!

    Toxic elements are present everywhere in the game. PvP, WvW and very often open world PvE content. I've read a lot of toxic comments in map chat recently be it during events or on festival maps where everybody should have fun to play very easy content. It's the people who are toxic and the reason is not a dps meter. Toxic group & group leaders will kick you no matter what.
    And again, it's a different thing if the state, organizations or companies know what I'm doing every second and have my private data or a group of random people in an online game that can see some virtual numbers that don't have any impact on my rl situation.

  • Zero.6082Zero.6082 Member ✭✭

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    Novody is forcing you to do anything.

    Yes you are you say later on I have to play one of the specific roles.

    Here is what it comes down to:
    A raid boss, fractal, etc requires a certain performance, usually a certain amount of damage over a certain amount of time. In order to perform said damage, all players present have to survive long enough thus they have to adhere to the bosses/encounters attacks. All of this is made easier with different roles like support, tank, damage dealer, etc.

    No it doesn’t people have beaten raids in green gear. So defend that....

    Groups are made with certain requirements. When you join one of those groups, you either fullfill one of the requirements the other 4 or 9 people have setup, or you get booted. You can also make your own group and make your own requirements. You don't get to dictate to the other people in the group what they have and have not to accept in performance unless it's your group. In which you'd still need to have concensus with most of the players or else they might leave.

    Welcome to team sports 101.

    It’s not a professional team. When you play football recreational do you fill every position? Do you have a running back? A full back? A designated kicker.... no you play with what you got. Your argument is relying on professional sports not a pick up group sport. When you play rec base ball do you play first base and only first base? Are you required to do so. No you can swap and change. Do you bench players in rec sports? Also if you did a rec sport do you kick them if they miss a few balls thrown at first base?
    Gw2 raids you do.

    @Zero.6082 said:

    @Zero.6082 said:

    @Cameron.6450 said:
    Guys I want to play in my local football team but I don't want anyone to watch what I do when the ball comes near me in case they decide they don't want me on the team anymore.

    You forgot the import distinction. It’s not the willingness to play the sport. It’s forcing me to play a position I don’t want to play, because you said so. Argument from authority. If the person doesn’t want to fight kick. But if they are trying... well kick them to because they are not Payton Manning.....

    And I also forgot, pug groups are like recreational sports.... do you kick players who are bad in recreational sports? No, but in gw2 people kick if they are not pro players in recreational sports..... I push this to everyone who argues on the thread. If you want perfect players. Pay for all their gear and give them a salary. Then you can achieve your results.... if not we’ll sorry but you have to work with what you got. Recreational sports live and die by the willingness of people to play. The more you chastise.... the less they are willing to play and the less players means less support for the game as a whole.

    Recreational team sports are just like professional sports. A soccer team needs a goaly and different positions for their players. You get to decide how ambitious the team you join can be.

    Except your forgetting the distinction of the rules. Of sports. Can you have two goalies? How many tanks can you have? Healers? dps? Who wrote down the guild wars 2 raid rules? But what I was explaining was not the position but the level of which you play the position. You want Payton Manning on your rec team.... not a plain quarterback.

  • Euthymias.7984Euthymias.7984 Member ✭✭✭

    DPS Meters are fine. It is good that we have access to rough estimates of whats incoming/outgoing, and tidbits on who did/didnt do something, I think. The problems that come from how the players interpret the information and react to it is not the fault of the information gatherer, but the players themselves....and I dont think taking that information away would benefit anyone beyond those who have something to hide.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Zero.6082 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    Novody is forcing you to do anything.

    Yes you are you say later on I have to play one of the specific roles.

    Litereally every single LFG tells people what is still needed. If it doesn't the content is usually trivial enough to not matter.

    @Zero.6082 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Here is what it comes down to:
    A raid boss, fractal, etc requires a certain performance, usually a certain amount of damage over a certain amount of time. In order to perform said damage, all players present have to survive long enough thus they have to adhere to the bosses/encounters attacks. All of this is made easier with different roles like support, tank, damage dealer, etc.

    No it doesn’t people have beaten raids in green gear. So defend that....

    Yes, people who are playing this game on a skill level 10 times higher than yours. Get on that level and you get to play in green gear too.

    @Zero.6082 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    Groups are made with certain requirements. When you join one of those groups, you either fullfill one of the requirements the other 4 or 9 people have setup, or you get booted. You can also make your own group and make your own requirements. You don't get to dictate to the other people in the group what they have and have not to accept in performance unless it's your group. In which you'd still need to have concensus with most of the players or else they might leave.

    Welcome to team sports 101.

    It’s not a professional team. When you play football recreational do you fill every position? Do you have a running back? A full back? A designated kicker.... no you play with what you got. Your argument is relying on professional sports not a pick up group sport. When you play rec base ball do you play first base and only first base? Are you required to do so. No you can swap and change. Do you bench players in rec sports? Also if you did a rec sport do you kick them if they miss a few balls thrown at first base?
    Gw2 raids you do.

    Yes you do, if you are playing in a team with proper setup and even the smallest teams have those positions covered. Now if you play with your friends and just mess around, then you might forgo those positions. You are not aiming to beat any one, there is no challenge to overcome and it is fine. That's like playing open world content semi afk here.

    @Zero.6082 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Zero.6082 said:

    @Zero.6082 said:

    @Cameron.6450 said:
    Guys I want to play in my local football team but I don't want anyone to watch what I do when the ball comes near me in case they decide they don't want me on the team anymore.

    You forgot the import distinction. It’s not the willingness to play the sport. It’s forcing me to play a position I don’t want to play, because you said so. Argument from authority. If the person doesn’t want to fight kick. But if they are trying... well kick them to because they are not Payton Manning.....

    And I also forgot, pug groups are like recreational sports.... do you kick players who are bad in recreational sports? No, but in gw2 people kick if they are not pro players in recreational sports..... I push this to everyone who argues on the thread. If you want perfect players. Pay for all their gear and give them a salary. Then you can achieve your results.... if not we’ll sorry but you have to work with what you got. Recreational sports live and die by the willingness of people to play. The more you chastise.... the less they are willing to play and the less players means less support for the game as a whole.

    Recreational team sports are just like professional sports. A soccer team needs a goaly and different positions for their players. You get to decide how ambitious the team you join can be.

    Except your forgetting the distinction of the rules. Of sports. Can you have two goalies? How many tanks can you have? Healers? dps? Who wrote down the guild wars 2 raid rules? But what I was explaining was not the position but the level of which you play the position. You want Payton Manning on your rec team.... not a plain quarterback.

    No, in that GW2 is more flexible. It allows you do have no goalies or 5 goalies for certain content. It depends on what the other people in your team are willing to accept.

  • Sigmoid.7082Sigmoid.7082 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Zero.6082 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    Novody is forcing you to do anything.

    Yes you are you say later on I have to play one of the specific roles.

    Here is what it comes down to:
    A raid boss, fractal, etc requires a certain performance, usually a certain amount of damage over a certain amount of time. In order to perform said damage, all players present have to survive long enough thus they have to adhere to the bosses/encounters attacks. All of this is made easier with different roles like support, tank, damage dealer, etc.

    No it doesn’t people have beaten raids in green gear. So defend that....

    How skilled are these players and how polished are their builds and rotations compared to your average player?
    Also how do you think they got so good and fine tuned so quickly?

    Also saying people can do it in greens so you don't need certain performance , builds gear etc is kind of a slight on those who have done it. Not only on how much work they have put in to get there but also their skill. They are literally replacing some of the other requirements with sheer skills and knowledge. More effort than most are able/willing to actually put in.

  • Zero.6082Zero.6082 Member ✭✭

    @Vinceman.4572 said:

    @Zero.6082 said:
    But you didn’t answer the question. Others did. Which partially makes sense. But ok I’ll take their arguments and build on them sense you didn’t provide anything but an insult twice.

    He didn't insult you. He just told you again that the dmg stats you are performing in a group/squad are not private information. Anet said so and they make the rules. He is absolutely right when saying you didn't like the answer but that this is completely irrelevant in terms of straight facts!

    Lets give you the context and for everyone here so that way we don't straw man the argument like above. He first stated, "That's something those that have no clue what privacy is would say." That implies i am dumb... instead of answering my question... Then he said, "The replies above this one have all the extra info you need but to answer this part,** I did answer your question. If you know what privacy is, or rather private data/information, then you should know dps meters do not violate them. The fact that you didn't like the answer is irrelevant."** First off no he did answer the question first bold he insulted me for be dumb for not knowing what privacy is. Then he lies says he answered my question when he didn't and implied i didn't like his answer because i am to dumb to realize he answered the question when he didn't.

    But context is key Vinceman but hey easier to beat an argument you make up am I right? Like DPS meters being an objective tool of measurement.

    But as for the rest i push the burden of proof on everyone! I want to know the perfect DPS numbers so i can hold my self accountable objectively. I want the numbers for every class, group combination, and boss. If you can't do that then you are simply enforcing your authority on to the players that they might not believe in.

    Again I want the game to be welcoming to all kinds of players. I don't raid because of that. I gave an example of a time i almost quit because it bothers me some one is watching me every move and judging me through a subjective lens under paper perfect conditions from a website that they googled. I care about longevity of the game and fun that we are having. If people are quiting because, other people are pushing their idea of the perfect game down their throat and using a meter that can not even be proven as perfect... i have a problem with that, because your use a subjective call to make people angry and quit.

  • Vinceman.4572Vinceman.4572 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 18, 2019

    Thanks Cyninja for the short but precise answer, as always.

  • Shikaru.7618Shikaru.7618 Member ✭✭✭

    @Zero.6082 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Zero.6082 said:
    Also totally out of the blue but how is a DPS meter on other players not an invasion of privacy?

    That's something those that have no clue what privacy is would say.

    The reason I think it’s an invasion of privacy is because your taking game data from my character and computer with out my permission. If guild wars 2 won’t let other people look at my gear because toxic invasion of privacy. Then why can some one get those number produced by my actions and set up. Example if I am hitting 22k on rotation of a holosmith and the meta is 26k then it is simple math to realize I don’t have perfect gear. Thus you now know everything about me with out me telling you. But your statement puzzles me..... this is the new normal style of argument which is if you can’t answer the question you insult the asker. My question is why can’t you answer the question. If it was so simple then you could have answered. This is the entire point of the thread... toxicity and by insulting me instead of answering the question reinforces the reason why we need to remove the meters, because of statements like this where it could be used for education and instead are used for power and points. If you can’t use the tool in a civil and productive manner and it is really an invasion of privacy. Then we should take away the tools which bullies use to gain power. It’s a video game. I pose another question to a forum if you build exactly as what a website tells you and then do the rotation it tells you..... are you playing the game or is the website? At that point I can argue no one who does raids or fractals are no more then a person who memorized a dance dance revolution set. You didn’t play the game, someone else forced you to play.....

    I'm not sure why this is so hard to understand. Its not your game data. You use the game client to send actions and character data to the server. This can be things like what skins I'm using, what mount I decide to mount on, what skill do I use, what consumable buff do I use. You send all of this to anet. The anet game server then sends that data to all visible players around you so that their game clients know how to render the world. If they dont get this, you wont see players on their mounts, you wont see players playing skill animations, you wont see how many stacks of torment a mobs has on it generated from someone else. The game server has to tell each client how much damage a mob has taken as well as from what sources in order to maintain the world. If it ever becomes asynchronous, you create a situation where a mob could have died for one client and not the other, or certain conditions are there for one client and not the other (eg. Deal bonus damage while target is stunned).

    So what does this all mean? When you boot up gw2 you are willingly subjecting yourself to having your combat and character data sent to anet and also having yours and other players data sent to you. Arc is not reading anything off your computer. It is taking data sent from anet servers to me. At that point it's my data that my game client is receiving. That is the client server architecture. If you dont want your data sent to the server and shared with players around you your only option is to alt f4. This also happens in all game modes not just raids and fractals.

  • Zero.6082Zero.6082 Member ✭✭

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Zero.6082 said:
    But context is key Vinceman but hey easier to beat an argument you make up am I right? Like DPS meters being an objective tool of measurement.

    DPS meters are absolutely objective. It's how one reads them when the data becomes subjective.

    But you kick on the subjective not the objective.

    @Zero.6082 said:
    But as for the rest i push the burden of proof on everyone! I want to know the perfect DPS numbers so i can hold my self accountable objectively. I want the numbers for every class, group combination, and boss. If you can't do that then you are simply enforcing your authority on to the players that they might not believe in.

    This information was already given to you:

    Gw2 raider. I went to the website it’s specific to the person using it. It doesn’t have every combination. You meter needs to tell me that if my group is this, class is this, boss is this your dps is this with all outside factors including dodging, reviving down players. You can’t make that call. Not to mention damage has random rolls. Sometimes you hit differently. If dps was the max case... then everyone should run only weavers and dare devils...

    @Zero.6082 said:
    Again I want the game to be welcoming to all kinds of players. I don't raid because of that. I gave an example of a time i almost quit because it bothers me some one is watching me every move and judging me through a subjective lens under paper perfect conditions from a website that they googled. I care about longevity of the game and fun that we are having. If people are quiting because, other people are pushing their idea of the perfect game down their throat and using a meter that can not even be proven as perfect... i have a problem with that, because your use a subjective call to make people angry and quit.

    Why you raid or do not raid is up to you. If people are qutitting because they are not able to work within a social and group structure because they don't get their way, then they have no room in group oriented content. Those people are free to make their own groups with their own rules.

    Unfortunatly most players want loot. Loot requires success. Success requires performance.

    Loot is easy I arguably get more loot from dragons fall then I got from the 4 raids I completed. Second I don’t have to adhere to you social structure because I want to. You force me to. You just said it in the statement conform or get out... what do I conform to. You are not my authority nor do you pay me. So why should I conform. Because a website told you to tell me to? Your argument is not about completing or wining. Your argument is for speed. Which is a mess. Because fastest way to beat a raid is to pay someone else to cross the finish line. But if your subjecting everyone to a specific rotation and build. Arguably it’s not an open world mmo where you bring creativity and learn to work as a group with what you got. But a shallow hole of dance dance revolution.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 18, 2019

    @Zero.6082 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Zero.6082 said:
    But context is key Vinceman but hey easier to beat an argument you make up am I right? Like DPS meters being an objective tool of measurement.

    DPS meters are absolutely objective. It's how one reads them when the data becomes subjective.

    But you kick on the subjective not the objective.

    No, you kick based on what the group has adhered to or what is demanded. As mentioned by others, if you bring what the group has asked for, you will never get kicked.

    @Zero.6082 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Zero.6082 said:
    @Zero.6082 said:
    But as for the rest i push the burden of proof on everyone! I want to know the perfect DPS numbers so i can hold my self accountable objectively. I want the numbers for every class, group combination, and boss. If you can't do that then you are simply enforcing your authority on to the players that they might not believe in.

    This information was already given to you:

    Gw2 raider. I went to the website it’s specific to the person using it. It doesn’t have every combination. You meter needs to tell me that if my group is this, class is this, boss is this your dps is this with all outside factors including dodging, reviving down players. You can’t make that call. Not to mention damage has random rolls. Sometimes you hit differently. If dps was the max case... then everyone should run only weavers and dare devils...

    That is nonsense. Go again. GW2raidar has top performing builds for each boss and shows everything from top 1% percentile to 50th percentile.

    Dodging and reviving are of no consequence. They will also not make or break your performance even if they reduce your result. Also let's not get into this argument again, it gets tiresome to have to repeat the same things over and over. Dodging and reviving is part of a learn process and understanding of boss mechanics.

    @Zero.6082 said:
    Again I want the game to be welcoming to all kinds of players. I don't raid because of that. I gave an example of a time i almost quit because it bothers me some one is watching me every move and judging me through a subjective lens under paper perfect conditions from a website that they googled. I care about longevity of the game and fun that we are having. If people are quiting because, other people are pushing their idea of the perfect game down their throat and using a meter that can not even be proven as perfect... i have a problem with that, because your use a subjective call to make people angry and quit.

    Why you raid or do not raid is up to you. If people are qutitting because they are not able to work within a social and group structure because they don't get their way, then they have no room in group oriented content. Those people are free to make their own groups with their own rules.

    Unfortunatly most players want loot. Loot requires success. Success requires performance.

    Loot is easy I arguably get more loot from dragons fall then I got from the 4 raids I completed. Second I don’t have to adhere to you social structure because I want to. You force me to.

    I'm not forcing you to do anything. If I join your group, I'll do what is asked of me. If you join mine, you'll do what is asked. I am not holding a gun to your head demanding you join my group. You are basolutely free to do as you please.

    As far as loot, not all loot is measured in gold per hour. Obviously most people going into raids do it for raid unique loot, or am I mistaken?

    @Zero.6082 said:
    You just said it in the statement conform or get out... what do I conform to. You are not my authority nor do you pay me. So why should I conform.

    Because it's my group (or someone elses group) and I am in charge of making sure it succeeds. You are free to join and accept the conditions I have set, not join and even make your own group. It's called a social contract and every player agrees to the one when joining a group. You are literally demanding I take you making me nothing better than a slave to your demand or whim. I am free to chose who I want to play with, just like you.

    @Zero.6082 said:
    Because a website told you to tell me to? Your argument is not about completing or wining. Your argument is for speed.

    My argument is for success. Speed can be a biproduct of success. Open world content nearly always succeed, as such it makes no difference what people run. Last time I chedk, raids and high level fractals are not guaranteed success.

    You do what is necessary to fullfill the role you have taken on. You can come up with your own build and as long as it performs satisfactory you will have no issue and no one will be able to tell. Most people are not willing to invest this much time and simply copy other people's work which causes other issues (like lack of understanding).

    If you want people to do as you want in their group: pay them. There is raid sellers and I guarantee you, they will do exactly as you ask, for a price.

  • Zero.6082Zero.6082 Member ✭✭

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Zero.6082 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Zero.6082 said:
    But context is key Vinceman but hey easier to beat an argument you make up am I right? Like DPS meters being an objective tool of measurement.

    DPS meters are absolutely objective. It's how one reads them when the data becomes subjective.

    But you kick on the subjective not the objective.

    No, you kick based on what the group has adhered to or what is demanded. As mentioned by others, if you bring what the group has asked for, you will never get kicked.

    Do you not realize when to say adhere or demanded... that means force. The issue is not one or to groups. It’s that you all follow blindly an organization or website and enforce their rules. If your so flexible can I bring a healer firebrand instead of a Druid? No because it doesn’t adhere to a websites demand.

    @Zero.6082 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Zero.6082 said:
    @Zero.6082 said:
    But as for the rest i push the burden of proof on everyone! I want to know the perfect DPS numbers so i can hold my self accountable objectively. I want the numbers for every class, group combination, and boss. If you can't do that then you are simply enforcing your authority on to the players that they might not believe in.

    This information was already given to you:

    Gw2 raider. I went to the website it’s specific to the person using it. It doesn’t have every combination. You meter needs to tell me that if my group is this, class is this, boss is this your dps is this with all outside factors including dodging, reviving down players. You can’t make that call. Not to mention damage has random rolls. Sometimes you hit differently. If dps was the max case... then everyone should run only weavers and dare devils...

    That is nonsense. Go again. GW2raidar has top performing builds for each boss and shows everything from top 1% percentile to 50th percentile.

    The people who submit are pros I have to adhere to Lebrun James skill to play basket ball with you? Woah bro calm down.

    .

    I'm not forcing you to do anything. If I join your group, I'll do what is asked of me. If you join mine, you'll do what is asked. I am not holding a gun to your head demanding you join my group. You are basolutely free to do as you please.

    To join your group, I am a pug there is no sign that says if you don’t do what I want I kick you.

    @Zero.6082 said:
    Because a website told you to tell me to? Your argument is not about completing or wining. Your argument is for speed.

    My argument is for success. Speed can be a biproduct of success. Open world content nearly always succeed, as such it makes no difference what people run. Last time I chedk, raids and high level fractals are not guaranteed success.

    You do what is necessary to fullfill the role you have taken on. You can come up with your own build and as long as it performs satisfactory you will have no issue and no one will be able to tell. Most people are not willing to invest this much time and simply copy other people's work which causes other issues (like lack of understanding).

    No I am not free to play with whoever because you just said I can’t play with you if I don’t do what you want. You also don’t care what succeeds. Because a firebrand healer isn’t a Druid. It may succeed, but who cares your meter and idealized website said no, so it is no. Your forcing a subjective optimized build for a specific set of players. Claiming fair, but saying no go. If I delete the websites and the meters? How do you know what your comp looks like? You can’t, forcing players to follow an authority that is subjective, do you expect everyone to conform? Is there no other way to win then to meter dps and use your meta? I find that hard to believe... I thought the game takes skill, but if it is as simple as following instructions. I guess I should find the easiest instruction, download a meter and jump back into raids. Is that the gate way to success good enough for you? Again why can people succeed then with green gear of the game is about numbers. No one has explained that. Thus defeating your dps meter and realizing the game is about good old fashion work, and practice.... not a specific set number.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 18, 2019

    @Zero.6082 said:
    But ok I’ll take their arguments and build on them sense you didn’t provide anything but an insult twice.

    This is what personal data is:
    US:

    Information which can be used to distinguish or trace an individual's identity, such as their name, social security number, biometric records, etc. alone, or when combined with other personal or identifying information which is linked or linkable to a specific individual, such as date and place of birth, mother’s maiden name, etc

    EU:

    Article 2a: 'personal data' shall mean any information relating to an identified or identifiable natural person ('data subject'); an identifiable person is one who can be identified, directly or indirectly, in particular by reference to an identification number or to one or more factors specific to his physical, physiological, mental, economic, cultural or social identity;

    dps you do in an mmorpg doesn't fall into this category in any stretch of the meanings. Now that we know that dps is NOT personal data, we can easily tell that there is no invasion of privacy, because no -actual- personal data is acquired using dps meters.

    There was a thread some time ago when someone claiming to be member of the EU parliament insisted on talking with the Arenanet legal team, on the subject of dps meters of course. They did, and their posts against the meters stopped shortly thereafter. If you really want to, send a support message to Arenanet to contact their legal department and ask them regarding dps meters, like that person did.

    You are taking a very serious issue, privacy and personal information, and degrade it by making it about dps meters. Invasion of privacy is punishable and companies pay millions in fines, when there is a data breech. There are important, and harsh, laws regarding this subject because it's a very serious issue. Yet none apply to dps meters. They have been around for decades and no company has been sued over them. In fact, the Guild Wars 2 forum is the only forum of any mmorpg I've played where I've read this ridiculous argument about dps meters infringing on privacy as if some of the players of this game are so much more sensitive than in any other game out there.

    I feel like I'm stating the obvious here, and I will re-iterate my first response to you: you know nothing about privacy and personal data.

  • Zero.6082Zero.6082 Member ✭✭

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    TD;DR:
    stop being entitled and expect others to take you because you demand it. Either make your own group or accept other people's demands when joining theirs.

    I am done with this, we are going in circles. You are either to entitled and/or to stubbron to allow other people the same freedoms you demand for yourself. The choice is the same for all here, and I will make use of mine the way I see fit without infringing on yours.

    I am not infringing on your rights nor am I entitled. Kitten I don’t even raid. I just don’t like someone at lebron level like you ridiculing me about my performance in a video game with a tool they think is objectively perfect. I want to have fun. I play maybe 10 hours a week if am lucky... mostly on a weekend. There is plenty of other things to do. Sorry we can’t all dedicate our lives to your perfection. I was suggesting an alternative of idk checking our entitlements at the door. But you don’t use the meter to help educate. you use it to weed out the potential learners to find the superstars. Which you don’t need in a kitten video game. If superstars can do it with greens maybe weaker players can do it with different build or exotics? But for you No chances no thoughts. You must have been that kid in school that didn’t let others play football with you because they weren’t part of your cool crowd. But this comment, is totally bogus I didn’t ask for dps meters and didn’t have them in 2015. And as you can see by this thread if it didn’t cause problems why are we arguing? Mr. Libertarian, explain how we all got the choice for you to watch our faults or success and decide well that isn’t good enough? I am the entitled one. It’s a video game... I am not demanding anything I don’t care about who takes me. I care that people quit because their dps is “trash” thus everyone loses because no one plays.

  • Zero.6082Zero.6082 Member ✭✭

    @Vinceman.4572 said:

    @Zero.6082 said:
    Again why can people succeed then with green gear of the game is about numbers. No one has explained that.

    Because they are literally GOOD at the game and those are maybe 1-2% of the whole GW2 community. If you have been in groups or squads with those players you would be able to compare them with the standard groups you're in regularly. Hint: They are miles away from what you experience every other day.
    Trying to explain this too you over several posts now is starting to become annoying tbh.

    But you kick them before they can practice and get good. Because their dps is not good under mechanics. You want a pro with out the practice. Which is why I don’t raid. I am not pro you see that in your meter.... good bye me. But you guys don’t care about the players on the other side of the screen. You show you care about the numbers.

  • Kahlan.7249Kahlan.7249 Member ✭✭
    edited July 18, 2019

    @Cameron.6450 said:
    Guys I want to play in my local football team but I don't want anyone to watch what I do when the ball comes near me in case they decide they don't want me on the team anymore.

    LOL this

    also, since when the heck was knowing someone's dps considered an invasion of privacy @[email protected] like dude it is not spying on what you're doing in the bedroom, asking about personal healthcare info, or uhh stealing your credit card number

    it's literally just dps in a game LOL

    mai trin farm 2k19, the place to be--- sparky skell alex radomir ghastly lisa frank qante mercy bacon cat aj nay ++ and yours truly, me :')

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 18, 2019

    @Zero.6082 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    TD;DR:
    stop being entitled and expect others to take you because you demand it. Either make your own group or accept other people's demands when joining theirs.

    I am done with this, we are going in circles. You are either to entitled and/or to stubbron to allow other people the same freedoms you demand for yourself. The choice is the same for all here, and I will make use of mine the way I see fit without infringing on yours.

    I am not infringing on your rights nor am I entitled. Kitten I don’t even raid. I just don’t like someone at lebron level like you ridiculing me about my performance in a video game with a tool they think is objectively perfect. I want to have fun. I play maybe 10 hours a week if am lucky... mostly on a weekend.

    When did I ridicule you? I gave you suggestions how to improve your gameplay after you decided to:
    A. badmouth a group you were in
    B. decided that my advice was not applicable to you (fair enough, in the future I will refrain from giving you advice)

    Fair enough, this is an open forum. Had you stated you want no input on your performance, none would have been given by me.

    @Zero.6082 said:
    I was suggesting an alternative of idk checking our entitlements at the door.

    No, you suggested that people play the game the you want them to play. I get to play how I want, you get to play how you want. Everyone gets to play the game how they want. The freedom to play how one wants extends all the way to another player where both need to decide they want to play together. That's how freedom works, it's not a one way street.

    If you had suggested an alternative you would be living that alternative. There is enough people who play this game casually or make casual groups like the one you joined for T4 fractals. Some of them succeed, others do not. Most people realize that if they want to succeed, they are better off with certain group compositions and builds.

    @Zero.6082 said:
    But you don’t use the meter to help educate. you use it to weed out the potential learners to find the superstars.

    How do you know how I use the dps meter? I do training runs, I do regular runs, I help others out. You are assuming much given you have 0 raiding experience. That is irrelevant to the issue though.

    @Zero.6082 said:
    Which you don’t need in a kitten video game.

    No, you don't. Unless there is challenge involved and people want the loot.

    @Zero.6082 said:
    If superstars can do it with greens maybe weaker players can do it with different build or exotics? But for you No chances no thoughts.

    I have by now said dozens of times that you can run whatever build you want as long as it fullfills the groups requirements. You are literally putting words in my mouth which I never stated.

    • If you can make a damage build which performs well enough for the groups demands, no one will care.
    • If you bring the boons people are asking for, no one will care.
    • If you bring the healing people are asking for, no one will care.

    @Zero.6082 said:
    You must have been that kid in school that didn’t let others play football with you because they weren’t part of your cool crowd. But this comment, is totally bogus I didn’t ask for dps meters and didn’t have them in 2015. And as you can see by this thread if it didn’t cause problems why are we arguing? Mr. Libertarian, explain how we all got the choice for you to watch our faults or success and decide well that isn’t good enough? I am the entitled one. It’s a video game... I am not demanding anything I don’t care about who takes me. I care that people quit because their dps is “trash” thus everyone loses because no one plays.

    Yeah, I'm going to let you reflect on how you are addressing this conversation.

    Why is it always the ones screaming about others being toxic who are the most toxic themselves.

  • Zero.6082Zero.6082 Member ✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Zero.6082 said:
    But ok I’ll take their arguments and build on them sense you didn’t provide anything but an insult twice.

    This is what personal data is:
    US:

    Information which can be used to distinguish or trace an individual's identity, such as their name, social security number, biometric records, etc. alone, or when combined with other personal or identifying information which is linked or linkable to a specific individual, such as date and place of birth, mother’s maiden name, etc

    EU:

    Article 2a: 'personal data' shall mean any information relating to an identified or identifiable natural person ('data subject'); an identifiable person is one who can be identified, directly or indirectly, in particular by reference to an identification number or to one or more factors specific to his physical, physiological, mental, economic, cultural or social identity;

    dps you do in an mmorpg doesn't fall into this category in any stretch of the meanings. Now that we know that dps is NOT personal data, we can easily tell that there is no invasion of privacy, because no -actual- personal data is acquired using dps meters.

    There was a thread some time ago when someone claiming to be member of the EU parliament insisted on talking with the Arenanet legal team, on the subject of dps meters of course. They did, and their posts against the meters stopped shortly thereafter. If you really want to, send a support message to Arenanet to contact their legal department and ask them regarding dps meters, like that person did.

    You are taking a very serious issue, privacy and personal information, and degrade it by making it about dps meters. Invasion of privacy is punishable and companies pay millions in fines, when there is a data breech. There are important, and harsh, laws regarding this subject because it's a very serious issue. Yet none apply to dps meters. They have been around for decades and no company has been sued over them. In fact, the Guild Wars 2 forum is the only forum of any mmorpg I've played where I've read this ridiculous argument about dps meters infringing on privacy as if some of the players of this game are so much more sensitive than in any other game out there.

    I feel like I'm stating the obvious here, and I will re-iterate my first response to you: you know nothing about privacy and personal data.

    So why is it not included as part of the main game? And thank you for being respectful this time. But maybe I don’t know anything about privacy because idk how my direct contribution to a meters outcome is not personal? Not a legal invasion of privacy. I mean it’s not illegal if you know my characters stats either. But I am going by a mission statement not legality so sorry if I confused the two. That statement was from I thought gw2 . That we don’t want people to hold others accountable for the way they play. That invites exclusivities and toxic environments. Which is why you can’t get player stats. But to raid you need to provide all these things and be monitored..... I think that does exactly what you said. But again how do I get better if I get kicked on my first try cause your meter was like blah. How can I practice and learn mechanics if I never get the opportunity. We all sucked once.... then got better but we expect pros now and uh well that isn’t very fair.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Zero.6082 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Zero.6082 said:
    But ok I’ll take their arguments and build on them sense you didn’t provide anything but an insult twice.

    This is what personal data is:
    US:

    Information which can be used to distinguish or trace an individual's identity, such as their name, social security number, biometric records, etc. alone, or when combined with other personal or identifying information which is linked or linkable to a specific individual, such as date and place of birth, mother’s maiden name, etc

    EU:

    Article 2a: 'personal data' shall mean any information relating to an identified or identifiable natural person ('data subject'); an identifiable person is one who can be identified, directly or indirectly, in particular by reference to an identification number or to one or more factors specific to his physical, physiological, mental, economic, cultural or social identity;

    dps you do in an mmorpg doesn't fall into this category in any stretch of the meanings. Now that we know that dps is NOT personal data, we can easily tell that there is no invasion of privacy, because no -actual- personal data is acquired using dps meters.

    There was a thread some time ago when someone claiming to be member of the EU parliament insisted on talking with the Arenanet legal team, on the subject of dps meters of course. They did, and their posts against the meters stopped shortly thereafter. If you really want to, send a support message to Arenanet to contact their legal department and ask them regarding dps meters, like that person did.

    You are taking a very serious issue, privacy and personal information, and degrade it by making it about dps meters. Invasion of privacy is punishable and companies pay millions in fines, when there is a data breech. There are important, and harsh, laws regarding this subject because it's a very serious issue. Yet none apply to dps meters. They have been around for decades and no company has been sued over them. In fact, the Guild Wars 2 forum is the only forum of any mmorpg I've played where I've read this ridiculous argument about dps meters infringing on privacy as if some of the players of this game are so much more sensitive than in any other game out there.

    I feel like I'm stating the obvious here, and I will re-iterate my first response to you: you know nothing about privacy and personal data.

    So why is it not included as part of the main game? And thank you for being respectful this time. But maybe I don’t know anything about privacy because idk how my direct contribution to a meters outcome is not personal? Not a legal invasion of privacy. I mean it’s not illegal if you know my characters stats either. But I am going by a mission statement not legality so sorry if I confused the two. That statement was from I thought gw2 . That we don’t want people to hold others accountable for the way they play. That invites exclusivities and toxic environments. Which is why you can’t get player stats. But to raid you need to provide all these things and be monitored..... I think that does exactly what you said. But again how do I get better if I get kicked on my first try cause your meter was like blah. How can I practice and learn mechanics if I never get the opportunity. We all sucked once.... then got better but we expect pros now and uh well that isn’t very fair.

    You get better by practising with groups that are meant for training or start your own group. Like everyone else did. Joining others and expecting them to train you, you show disrespect for their time and a player's time is important. You are the toxic one, and you are the one dictating how others should play, exactly what you are against

  • Zero.6082Zero.6082 Member ✭✭

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    Why is it always the ones screaming about others being toxic who are the most toxic themselves.

    There was no toxicity you gave me advice that went against the grain. You then said I sucked and the team sucked.....which is basically the point of this thread. You jumped to toxic by saying I am bad. So I am not allowed to fight back? Would you like to retrace the threads? I explained sometimes meters and metas are subjective call. Then you claimed I still sucked.... again should we count at how many times you said I was bad at the game? You don’t even know me.

  • knite.1542knite.1542 Member ✭✭✭

    @Zero.6082 said:

    So why is it not included as part of the main game? And thank you for being respectful this time. But maybe I don’t know anything about privacy because idk how my direct contribution to a meters outcome is not personal? Not a legal invasion of privacy. I mean it’s not illegal if you know my characters stats either. But I am going by a mission statement not legality so sorry if I confused the two. That statement was from I thought gw2 . That we don’t want people to hold others accountable for the way they play. That invites exclusivities and toxic environments. Which is why you can’t get player stats. But to raid you need to provide all these things and be monitored..... I think that does exactly what you said. But again how do I get better if I get kicked on my first try cause your meter was like blah. How can I practice and learn mechanics if I never get the opportunity. We all sucked once.... then got better but we expect pros now and uh well that isn’t very fair.

    If you want to practice, go find a training group, it's easy. There are entire discords literally dedicated to this. If a group says Experienced, they want experienced people. It is simple. If you need training, find a training run. Join a training discord. Start your own group. There are many solutions to this.

    so you are still salty about that.

  • Zero.6082Zero.6082 Member ✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    You get better by practising with groups that are meant for training or start your own group. Like everyone else did. Joining others and expecting them to train you, you show disrespect for their time and a player's time is important. You are the toxic one, and you are the one dictating how others should play, exactly what you are against

    I didn’t dictate anything I asked for explanations. But you didn’t answer my question again. Insulted me as toxic.... this is getting old.... can you please answer my original question about the games mission? That was what I bought in 2015.... not dps meters.... again sorry for taking your player time... But your on a forum and I guess you got plenty of time. However, I can still address that. If you really cared about your time. 150 gold is around 10 dollars. Most minimum wage jobs are 8 an hour.... so if you work two hours of over time.... then you get 150 gold. Does 2 hours of raid = 150 gold? If we were arguing about player time.... then why don’t you just buy gold from some extra hours of work... it’s the shortest way to success.... if your time conscious. Then you could also bypass the team gates all together?

  • Vinceman.4572Vinceman.4572 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 18, 2019

    @Zero.6082 said:

    @Vinceman.4572 said:

    @Zero.6082 said:
    Again why can people succeed then with green gear of the game is about numbers. No one has explained that.

    Because they are literally GOOD at the game and those are maybe 1-2% of the whole GW2 community. If you have been in groups or squads with those players you would be able to compare them with the standard groups you're in regularly. Hint: They are miles away from what you experience every other day.
    Trying to explain this too you over several posts now is starting to become annoying tbh.

    But you kick them before they can practice and get good. Because their dps is not good under mechanics. You want a pro with out the practice. Which is why I don’t raid. I am not pro you see that in your meter.... good bye me. But you guys don’t care about the players on the other side of the screen. You show you care about the numbers.

    You know nothing, John Snow.
    Did I wrote anything about me kicking players out of groups? No, I didn't. And how can you be so entitled to claim I don't let players practicing and get good beforehand? You are funny, they can. Every. Fricking. Day.
    I'd rather have people understanding boss mechanics be it in fractals or in raids in the first place because a dead player adds nothing to the team. But, and this is important, you don't join an experienced fractal/raid group for practicing. This is why there are training groups in raids and for fractals you could start in T1 and head via T2, T3 to 4 and learn the basics from the scratch in the appropriate groups. For fractals it is even easier because you only need 5 players so that a lot of smaller guilds can create own statics where they have room for mistakes so no random player could be annoyed. I don't know how you started your video game career but I don't always try the hardest difficulty at the start. For some games where you know what to expect this could be different but the standard is you're making your way forward from the bottom to the top, step by step. And I also wrote in this thread - you must have missed that too, 2nd time now - that I'll help players almost every week on one day and we are teaching them fractal encounters for example. It's also not rare that we carry players through content although they aren't familiar with that. Those are mostly players that need specific achievements.
    The big problem only occurs if you join groups with requirements you can't meet. Why would you join those? They don't want to be mad, you don't want to be mad so there's a lose-lose situation. Just climb your way up - which sounds harder than it is in this particular game - and once you get your skritt together you can play with almost every group and nobody insults you, kicks you or says anything about your dps.

    @Zero.6082 said:
    So why is it not included as part of the main game? And thank you for being respectful this time. But maybe I don’t know anything about privacy because idk how my direct contribution to a meters outcome is not personal? Not a legal invasion of privacy. I mean it’s not illegal if you know my characters stats either. But I am going by a mission statement not legality so sorry if I confused the two. That statement was from I thought gw2 . That we don’t want people to hold others accountable for the way they play. That invites exclusivities and toxic environments. Which is why you can’t get player stats. But to raid you need to provide all these things and be monitored..... I think that does exactly what you said. But again how do I get better if I get kicked on my first try cause your meter was like blah. How can I practice and learn mechanics if I never get the opportunity. We all sucked once.... then got better but we expect pros now and uh well that isn’t very fair.

    Two words: Training groups (or guilds/comunities)

    They are there!

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Zero.6082 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    Why is it always the ones screaming about others being toxic who are the most toxic themselves.

    There was no toxicity you gave me advice that went against the grain. You then said I sucked and the team sucked.....which is basically the point of this thread. You jumped to toxic by saying I am bad. So I am not allowed to fight back? Would you like to retrace the threads? I explained sometimes meters and metas are subjective call. Then you claimed I still sucked.... again should we count at how many times you said I was bad at the game? You don’t even know me.

    Maybe go reread what you wrote and what I wrote.

    Hint: you were the one who stated:

    @Zero.6082 said:
    I totally agree with the thread. I ran a fractal with a group last night 88

    A Druid using a long bow
    Two daredevils,
    A supposed healer renegade who didn’t have agony resistance.

    So as far as badmouthing or critizising, no one in this thread went there earlier than you.

    I merely went into detail what was wrong with the setup and gave pointers. Yes, I called out mistakes you made, because those were mistakes you made. I didn't call you idiot or you sucked, I literally gave you advice realizing you are a less experienced player. Maybe go reread what I wrote and how you rseponded.

  • Sigmoid.7082Sigmoid.7082 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 18, 2019

    @Zero.6082 said:

    @Vinceman.4572 said:

    @Zero.6082 said:
    Again why can people succeed then with green gear of the game is about numbers. No one has explained that.

    Because they are literally GOOD at the game and those are maybe 1-2% of the whole GW2 community. If you have been in groups or squads with those players you would be able to compare them with the standard groups you're in regularly. Hint: They are miles away from what you experience every other day.
    Trying to explain this too you over several posts now is starting to become annoying tbh.

    But you kick them before they can practice and get good. Because their dps is not good under mechanics. You want a pro with out the practice. Which is why I don’t raid. I am not pro you see that in your meter.... good bye me. But you guys don’t care about the players on the other side of the screen. You show you care about the numbers.

    The problem with this scenario is they want a pro with the practice. If it's explicitly asked for , which it likely is in the LFG ad, and you aren't that / don't fit / perform to the level of what was asked for why are you surprised if you get removed from the group?

  • Zero.6082Zero.6082 Member ✭✭

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    @Zero.6082

    Next is the mistakes you made. First off, there is never a reason to die to a boss no matter if healer or not. Every fractal boss and content can be cleared without a healer present.

    Is that not admitting I am bad..... I should have no reason to die to a boss.... clarify?

    This is also true for Chaos. The correct approach here for you would have been:

    • make sure you are dodging the 3rd strike of the boss to not get hit by the Daze from his Spinning Cut (https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Legendary_Brazen_Gladiator)
    • take stability (I prefer Stand your Ground but Hallowed Ground works too) for situations in which you or others are hit by the Spinning Cut, especially around sub 60% boss life for the first breakbar as to make sure people can use skills
    • initiate the fight on Scepter/Focus for the Focus 5 3x block both as protection and better initial damage uptime
    • take Retreat if the group needs additional aegis
    • as mentioned, replace the elite trap for Feel My Wrath given your group had no access to quickness (and like no fury too unless the druid was running with a Warhorn offhand setup)
    • use your F3 to prevent hits from Spinning Cut and F2 as emergency heals if the group runs low

    The healer in fractals has become a clutch for bad players to make up for their mistakes. It is certainly not needed and as a guardian you should not immediately die at any boss. You have your base aegis up, 3 blocks from Focus 5, F3 and Lithany of Wrath for emergencies. If you do not react to all these defences melting away and your emergency 6 second immunity full heal, you are not paying attention to the fight.

    Again explain how you didn’t indirectly call me and players who run with healers as bad?

    TL;DR:
    Not going to suggar coat it, your team setup was kitten. You made some mistakes and if you work on improving your class understanding you'll be able to deal with such bad teams better in the future (if you decide to not immediately leave that is).

    Class understanding..... your bad.... come on fancy words but we know what it means.

    If you decide to not immediately leave that is.... I asked you to address that comment.... you assumed I wanted to quit...

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 18, 2019

    @Zero.6082 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    @Zero.6082

    Next is the mistakes you made. First off, there is never a reason to die to a boss no matter if healer or not. Every fractal boss and content can be cleared without a healer present.

    Is that not admitting I am bad..... I should have no reason to die to a boss.... clarify?

    That was diretly relating to your comment that you ran the meta build and died due to lack of group support. I was telling you that there is no reason to die but it is better to adapt. Something which I continued while giving advice trying to work with the group you mentioned.

    @Zero.6082 said:
    This is also true for Chaos. The correct approach here for you would have been:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    • make sure you are dodging the 3rd strike of the boss to not get hit by the Daze from his Spinning Cut (https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Legendary_Brazen_Gladiator)
    • take stability (I prefer Stand your Ground but Hallowed Ground works too) for situations in which you or others are hit by the Spinning Cut, especially around sub 60% boss life for the first breakbar as to make sure people can use skills
    • initiate the fight on Scepter/Focus for the Focus 5 3x block both as protection and better initial damage uptime
    • take Retreat if the group needs additional aegis
    • as mentioned, replace the elite trap for Feel My Wrath given your group had no access to quickness (and like no fury too unless the druid was running with a Warhorn offhand setup)
    • use your F3 to prevent hits from Spinning Cut and F2 as emergency heals if the group runs low

    The healer in fractals has become a clutch for bad players to make up for their mistakes. It is certainly not needed and as a guardian you should not immediately die at any boss. You have your base aegis up, 3 blocks from Focus 5, F3 and Lithany of Wrath for emergencies. If you do not react to all these defences melting away and your emergency 6 second immunity full heal, you are not paying attention to the fight.

    Again explain how you didn’t indirectly call me and players who run with healers as bad?

    Yes, because the performance was bad. Should I have lied?

    Fine, I amend my comment. You did great, everything will be fine in the future. Don't practice or put any effort into improving.

    @Zero.6082 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    TL;DR:
    Not going to suggar coat it, your team setup was kitten. You made some mistakes and if you work on improving your class understanding you'll be able to deal with such bad teams better in the future (if you decide to not immediately leave that is).

    Class understanding..... your bad.... come on fancy words but we know what it means.

    If you decide to not immediately leave that is.... I asked you to address that comment.... you assumed I wanted to quit...

    Yes, your team setup was terrible. You were lacking two of the most essential boons (quickness and fury) which not only you could have provided, but wich would have been essential to thiefs (daredevils) who have almost no benefit from alacrity. What exactly did you want me to say? The setup was kitten. You meanwhile showed a massive lack of understanding in both when to use which weapon skills, what they are good for and how to adapt to that boss, I even went into detail what is important for the boss looking it up (the daze on his third swing) providing a link.

    What, did you want me to just tell you: don't worry, everything will be fine. You did great?

    You didn't, you made mistakes, big ones. Period. (and so did your group, but I can only guess what and how they ran)

  • Zero.6082Zero.6082 Member ✭✭

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Zero.6082 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    Why is it always the ones screaming about others being toxic who are the most toxic themselves.

    There was no toxicity you gave me advice that went against the grain. You then said I sucked and the team sucked.....which is basically the point of this thread. You jumped to toxic by saying I am bad. So I am not allowed to fight back? Would you like to retrace the threads? I explained sometimes meters and metas are subjective call. Then you claimed I still sucked.... again should we count at how many times you said I was bad at the game? You don’t even know me.

    Maybe go reread what you wrote and what I wrote.

    Hint: you were the one who stated:

    @Zero.6082 said:
    I totally agree with the thread. I ran a fractal with a group last night 88

    A Druid using a long bow
    Two daredevils,
    A supposed healer renegade who didn’t have agony resistance.

    So as far as badmouthing or critizising, no one in this thread went there earlier than you.

    I merely went into detail what was wrong with the setup and gave pointers. Yes, I called out mistakes you made, because those were mistakes you made. I didn't call you idiot or you sucked, I literally gave you advice realizing you are a less experienced player. Maybe go reread what I wrote and how you responded

    Oh my god I am such a jerk I mentioned my team to set up a point which was that the meta people said my dps wasn’t meta.... you even agreed. I apologize from now on I won’t give contexts to stories....

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 18, 2019

    @Zero.6082 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Zero.6082 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    Why is it always the ones screaming about others being toxic who are the most toxic themselves.

    There was no toxicity you gave me advice that went against the grain. You then said I sucked and the team sucked.....which is basically the point of this thread. You jumped to toxic by saying I am bad. So I am not allowed to fight back? Would you like to retrace the threads? I explained sometimes meters and metas are subjective call. Then you claimed I still sucked.... again should we count at how many times you said I was bad at the game? You don’t even know me.

    Maybe go reread what you wrote and what I wrote.

    Hint: you were the one who stated:

    @Zero.6082 said:
    I totally agree with the thread. I ran a fractal with a group last night 88

    A Druid using a long bow
    Two daredevils,
    A supposed healer renegade who didn’t have agony resistance.

    So as far as badmouthing or critizising, no one in this thread went there earlier than you.

    I merely went into detail what was wrong with the setup and gave pointers. Yes, I called out mistakes you made, because those were mistakes you made. I didn't call you idiot or you sucked, I literally gave you advice realizing you are a less experienced player. Maybe go reread what I wrote and how you responded

    Oh my god I am such a jerk I mentioned my team to set up a point which was that the meta people said my dps wasn’t meta.... you even agreed. I apologize from now on I won’t give contexts to stories....

    Now you might understand why some of us were baffled (also read Vinces comments in that context). We were literally assuming you were asking how to get help in this situation.

    Fine, it was a misunderstanding, it happens. I think we have derailed the thread long enough. As far as meta builds, metabattle often has small guides when to use what, most of it comes with practice. As for people being toxic in game: block, report, move on.

    EDIT: I'm going to add this here as to not make the thread longer:

    @Zero.6082 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Zero.6082 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    @Zero.6082

    Next is the mistakes you made. First off, there is never a reason to die to a boss no matter if healer or not. Every fractal boss and content can be cleared without a healer present.

    Is that not admitting I am bad..... I should have no reason to die to a boss.... clarify?

    That was diretly relating to your comment that you ran the meta build and died due to lack of group support. I was telling you that there is no reason to die but it is better to adapt. Something which I continued while giving advice trying to work with the group you mentioned.

    @Zero.6082 said:
    This is also true for Chaos. The correct approach here for you would have been:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    • make sure you are dodging the 3rd strike of the boss to not get hit by the Daze from his Spinning Cut (https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Legendary_Brazen_Gladiator)
    • take stability (I prefer Stand your Ground but Hallowed Ground works too) for situations in which you or others are hit by the Spinning Cut, especially around sub 60% boss life for the first breakbar as to make sure people can use skills
    • initiate the fight on Scepter/Focus for the Focus 5 3x block both as protection and better initial damage uptime
    • take Retreat if the group needs additional aegis
    • as mentioned, replace the elite trap for Feel My Wrath given your group had no access to quickness (and like no fury too unless the druid was running with a Warhorn offhand setup)
    • use your F3 to prevent hits from Spinning Cut and F2 as emergency heals if the group runs low

    The healer in fractals has become a clutch for bad players to make up for their mistakes. It is certainly not needed and as a guardian you should not immediately die at any boss. You have your base aegis up, 3 blocks from Focus 5, F3 and Lithany of Wrath for emergencies. If you do not react to all these defences melting away and your emergency 6 second immunity full heal, you are not paying attention to the fight.

    Again explain how you didn’t indirectly call me and players who run with healers as bad?

    Yes, because the performance was bad. Should I have lied?

    Fine, I amend my comment. You did great, everything will be fine in the future. Don't practice or put any effort into improving.

    @Zero.6082 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    TL;DR:
    Not going to suggar coat it, your team setup was kitten. You made some mistakes and if you work on improving your class understanding you'll be able to deal with such bad teams better in the future (if you decide to not immediately leave that is).

    Class understanding..... your bad.... come on fancy words but we know what it means.

    If you decide to not immediately leave that is.... I asked you to address that comment.... you assumed I wanted to quit...

    Yes, your team setup was terrible. You were lacking two of the most essential boons (quickness and fury) which not only you could have provided, but wich would have been essential to thiefs (daredevils) who have almost no benefit from alacrity. What exactly did you want me to say? The setup was kitten. You meanwhile showed a massive lack of understanding in both when to use which weapon skills, what they are good for and how to adapt to that boss, I even went into detail what is important for the boss looking it up (the daze on his third swing) providing a link.

    What, did you want me to just tell you: don't worry, everything will be fine. You did great?

    You didn't, you made mistakes, big ones. Period. (and so did your group, but I can only guess what and how they ran)

    No I didn’t I asked you a set of questions regarding your comments involving thread and meta. Which you answered man do we have to dig up the conversation. My point was hey you gave advice great. I pointed out yes but that advice wasn’t meta or dps meter caring it was skill based.... but you came back and defend the meter again.... well yeah.... I don’t know how that got translated to where we ended... but you pointed out education but then called for ridge meta and metering.... so which is it?

    It's both. DPS meters are information. How people use that information is up to them. Toxic people will use it in toxic ways, others will use it to improve their and their groups performance etc. (someone posted a dps meter screenshot, I commented on it further up. It's a nice representation of how much information can be gather, and that was only from the front page).

    DPS meters allow for people to come in and play their class. That was not always the case. Now people are judged on their performance, before it was due to class. (this was discussed in this thread earlier). Fact of the matter is, if someone wants to be toxic, they will be and have been in the past.

    Your example and the group you gave fits this nicely on so many levels.

    A. not sure if you created the group, but whoever did should have payed better attention to the class composition and that everything is covered. You yourself noticed first hand what it can mean to not have all bases covered (literally since things did not work out)
    B. sticking strictly to the meta build and not adapting to the groups requirements from all involved put even more pressure on the group (the druid could have switched away from longbow and provided fury with warhorn for example)
    C. people then got toxic after checking the dps meter (and likely only the damage done and not any of the way more relevant information like mechanics failed or boons provided)

    This situation shows clearly how things can go wrong when stuff does not line up.

  • Zero.6082Zero.6082 Member ✭✭

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Zero.6082 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    @Zero.6082

    Next is the mistakes you made. First off, there is never a reason to die to a boss no matter if healer or not. Every fractal boss and content can be cleared without a healer present.

    Is that not admitting I am bad..... I should have no reason to die to a boss.... clarify?

    That was diretly relating to your comment that you ran the meta build and died due to lack of group support. I was telling you that there is no reason to die but it is better to adapt. Something which I continued while giving advice trying to work with the group you mentioned.

    @Zero.6082 said:
    This is also true for Chaos. The correct approach here for you would have been:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    • make sure you are dodging the 3rd strike of the boss to not get hit by the Daze from his Spinning Cut (https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Legendary_Brazen_Gladiator)
    • take stability (I prefer Stand your Ground but Hallowed Ground works too) for situations in which you or others are hit by the Spinning Cut, especially around sub 60% boss life for the first breakbar as to make sure people can use skills
    • initiate the fight on Scepter/Focus for the Focus 5 3x block both as protection and better initial damage uptime
    • take Retreat if the group needs additional aegis
    • as mentioned, replace the elite trap for Feel My Wrath given your group had no access to quickness (and like no fury too unless the druid was running with a Warhorn offhand setup)
    • use your F3 to prevent hits from Spinning Cut and F2 as emergency heals if the group runs low

    The healer in fractals has become a clutch for bad players to make up for their mistakes. It is certainly not needed and as a guardian you should not immediately die at any boss. You have your base aegis up, 3 blocks from Focus 5, F3 and Lithany of Wrath for emergencies. If you do not react to all these defences melting away and your emergency 6 second immunity full heal, you are not paying attention to the fight.

    Again explain how you didn’t indirectly call me and players who run with healers as bad?

    Yes, because the performance was bad. Should I have lied?

    Fine, I amend my comment. You did great, everything will be fine in the future. Don't practice or put any effort into improving.

    @Zero.6082 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    TL;DR:
    Not going to suggar coat it, your team setup was kitten. You made some mistakes and if you work on improving your class understanding you'll be able to deal with such bad teams better in the future (if you decide to not immediately leave that is).

    Class understanding..... your bad.... come on fancy words but we know what it means.

    If you decide to not immediately leave that is.... I asked you to address that comment.... you assumed I wanted to quit...

    Yes, your team setup was terrible. You were lacking two of the most essential boons (quickness and fury) which not only you could have provided, but wich would have been essential to thiefs (daredevils) who have almost no benefit from alacrity. What exactly did you want me to say? The setup was kitten. You meanwhile showed a massive lack of understanding in both when to use which weapon skills, what they are good for and how to adapt to that boss, I even went into detail what is important for the boss looking it up (the daze on his third swing) providing a link.

    What, did you want me to just tell you: don't worry, everything will be fine. You did great?

    You didn't, you made mistakes, big ones. Period. (and so did your group, but I can only guess what and how they ran)

    No I didn’t I asked you a set of questions regarding your comments involving thread and meta. Which you answered man do we have to dig up the conversation. My point was hey you gave advice great. I pointed out yes but that advice wasn’t meta or dps meter caring it was skill based.... but you came back and defend the meter again.... well yeah.... I don’t know how that got translated to where we ended... but you pointed out education but then called for ridge meta and metering.... so which is it?

  • Zero.6082Zero.6082 Member ✭✭

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Zero.6082 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Zero.6082 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    Why is it always the ones screaming about others being toxic who are the most toxic themselves.

    There was no toxicity you gave me advice that went against the grain. You then said I sucked and the team sucked.....which is basically the point of this thread. You jumped to toxic by saying I am bad. So I am not allowed to fight back? Would you like to retrace the threads? I explained sometimes meters and metas are subjective call. Then you claimed I still sucked.... again should we count at how many times you said I was bad at the game? You don’t even know me.

    Maybe go reread what you wrote and what I wrote.

    Hint: you were the one who stated:

    @Zero.6082 said:
    I totally agree with the thread. I ran a fractal with a group last night 88

    A Druid using a long bow
    Two daredevils,
    A supposed healer renegade who didn’t have agony resistance.

    So as far as badmouthing or critizising, no one in this thread went there earlier than you.

    I merely went into detail what was wrong with the setup and gave pointers. Yes, I called out mistakes you made, because those were mistakes you made. I didn't call you idiot or you sucked, I literally gave you advice realizing you are a less experienced player. Maybe go reread what I wrote and how you responded

    Oh my god I am such a jerk I mentioned my team to set up a point which was that the meta people said my dps wasn’t meta.... you even agreed. I apologize from now on I won’t give contexts to stories....

    Now you might understand why some of us were baffled (also read Vinces comments in that context). We were literally assuming you were asking how to get help in this situation.

    Fine, it was a misunderstanding, it happens. I think we have derailed the thread long enough. As far as meta builds, metabattle often has small guides when to use what, most of it comes with practice. As for people being toxic in game: block, report, move on.

    Oh ignore my last thread I read this after you posted again. I was grateful for the advice and that was my point which was saying hey maybe these meters and metas are wrong. I wanted to use retreat and stand your ground the meta guy said no it’s not meta. Then when I couldn’t get off an attack then he used a meter to bludgeon me to death with I am not good enough.... I then admit I got carried away... but the truth was I had no point of getting caught up in the thread. It was a recent incident that bugged me I wanted to see if others had an contributed my thoughts. Maybe get some answers. I used your response to further my point which fueled a bigger argument. No harm done I want to play the game another guardian gave me advice beat you to it.... but I just wanted to say hey guys lay-off they players who are trying to do their best and learn.... I don’t raid which maybe sad cause I potentially wanted to but... it’s threads like these where I go nope these people don’t want to help. They want their spread sheets, websites, and numbers. Good luck to you too.

  • yann.1946yann.1946 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Zero.6082 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Zero.6082 said:
    But ok I’ll take their arguments and build on them sense you didn’t provide anything but an insult twice.

    This is what personal data is:
    US:

    Information which can be used to distinguish or trace an individual's identity, such as their name, social security number, biometric records, etc. alone, or when combined with other personal or identifying information which is linked or linkable to a specific individual, such as date and place of birth, mother’s maiden name, etc

    EU:

    Article 2a: 'personal data' shall mean any information relating to an identified or identifiable natural person ('data subject'); an identifiable person is one who can be identified, directly or indirectly, in particular by reference to an identification number or to one or more factors specific to his physical, physiological, mental, economic, cultural or social identity;

    dps you do in an mmorpg doesn't fall into this category in any stretch of the meanings. Now that we know that dps is NOT personal data, we can easily tell that there is no invasion of privacy, because no -actual- personal data is acquired using dps meters.

    There was a thread some time ago when someone claiming to be member of the EU parliament insisted on talking with the Arenanet legal team, on the subject of dps meters of course. They did, and their posts against the meters stopped shortly thereafter. If you really want to, send a support message to Arenanet to contact their legal department and ask them regarding dps meters, like that person did.

    You are taking a very serious issue, privacy and personal information, and degrade it by making it about dps meters. Invasion of privacy is punishable and companies pay millions in fines, when there is a data breech. There are important, and harsh, laws regarding this subject because it's a very serious issue. Yet none apply to dps meters. They have been around for decades and no company has been sued over them. In fact, the Guild Wars 2 forum is the only forum of any mmorpg I've played where I've read this ridiculous argument about dps meters infringing on privacy as if some of the players of this game are so much more sensitive than in any other game out there.

    I feel like I'm stating the obvious here, and I will re-iterate my first response to you: you know nothing about privacy and personal data.

    So why is it not included as part of the main game? And thank you for being respectful this time. But maybe I don’t know anything about privacy because idk how my direct contribution to a meters outcome is not personal? Not a legal invasion of privacy. I mean it’s not illegal if you know my characters stats either. But I am going by a mission statement not legality so sorry if I confused the two. That statement was from I thought gw2 . That we don’t want people to hold others accountable for the way they play. That invites exclusivities and toxic environments. Which is why you can’t get player stats. But to raid you need to provide all these things and be monitored..... I think that does exactly what you said. But again how do I get better if I get kicked on my first try cause your meter was like blah. How can I practice and learn mechanics if I never get the opportunity. We all sucked once.... then got better but we expect pros now and uh well that isn’t very fair.

    We'll the original mission statement was play how you want. That doesn't mean play together without a care on how you play. Because that would infringe on the right of people who want to people with good performance.

    Their are lots of way to practice without dpsmeters being an issue.

    So I'll ask again why does your right to play how you want supersede other people's right to play how they want?

  • yusayu.3629yusayu.3629 Member ✭✭✭

    @Zero.6082 said:

    @yusayu.3629 said:
    DPS meters are good for the game and should either stay or be replaced by ANets own group dps meter.

    If you're not pulling your weight (this also includes stuff like mechanics, for which I recommand the mechanics addon for ArcDPS), you deserve to be kicked. That's got nothing to do with toxicity. If you take 2 hours break every day and chill on reddit the rest of the day at work you'd be fired as well.

    I didn't realize my video game for fun was a job.... Can you give me my paycheck? You know what else a job does.... provides you with the tools to complete the task.... So are you going to buy everyone a perfect meta character? I don't think the comparison is warranted

    So don't raid. If you don't want to play at a higher level nobody's forcing you to. But expecting others to carry because you're not doing your part should get you kicked and DPS meters are one of the easiest way to see that.

    Or open your own raid squads with Longbow Rangers and Rifle Warriors.

  • Zero.6082Zero.6082 Member ✭✭

    @yann.1946 said:

    @Zero.6082 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Zero.6082 said:
    But ok I’ll take their arguments and build on them sense you didn’t provide anything but an insult twice.

    This is what personal data is:
    US:

    Information which can be used to distinguish or trace an individual's identity, such as their name, social security number, biometric records, etc. alone, or when combined with other personal or identifying information which is linked or linkable to a specific individual, such as date and place of birth, mother’s maiden name, etc

    EU:

    Article 2a: 'personal data' shall mean any information relating to an identified or identifiable natural person ('data subject'); an identifiable person is one who can be identified, directly or indirectly, in particular by reference to an identification number or to one or more factors specific to his physical, physiological, mental, economic, cultural or social identity;

    dps you do in an mmorpg doesn't fall into this category in any stretch of the meanings. Now that we know that dps is NOT personal data, we can easily tell that there is no invasion of privacy, because no -actual- personal data is acquired using dps meters.

    There was a thread some time ago when someone claiming to be member of the EU parliament insisted on talking with the Arenanet legal team, on the subject of dps meters of course. They did, and their posts against the meters stopped shortly thereafter. If you really want to, send a support message to Arenanet to contact their legal department and ask them regarding dps meters, like that person did.

    You are taking a very serious issue, privacy and personal information, and degrade it by making it about dps meters. Invasion of privacy is punishable and companies pay millions in fines, when there is a data breech. There are important, and harsh, laws regarding this subject because it's a very serious issue. Yet none apply to dps meters. They have been around for decades and no company has been sued over them. In fact, the Guild Wars 2 forum is the only forum of any mmorpg I've played where I've read this ridiculous argument about dps meters infringing on privacy as if some of the players of this game are so much more sensitive than in any other game out there.

    I feel like I'm stating the obvious here, and I will re-iterate my first response to you: you know nothing about privacy and personal data.

    So why is it not included as part of the main game? And thank you for being respectful this time. But maybe I don’t know anything about privacy because idk how my direct contribution to a meters outcome is not personal? Not a legal invasion of privacy. I mean it’s not illegal if you know my characters stats either. But I am going by a mission statement not legality so sorry if I confused the two. That statement was from I thought gw2 . That we don’t want people to hold others accountable for the way they play. That invites exclusivities and toxic environments. Which is why you can’t get player stats. But to raid you need to provide all these things and be monitored..... I think that does exactly what you said. But again how do I get better if I get kicked on my first try cause your meter was like blah. How can I practice and learn mechanics if I never get the opportunity. We all sucked once.... then got better but we expect pros now and uh well that isn’t very fair.

    We'll the original mission statement was play how you want. That doesn't mean play together without a care on how you play. Because that would infringe on the right of people who want to people with good performance.

    Their are lots of way to practice without dpsmeters being an issue.

    So I'll ask again why does your right to play how you want supersede other people's right to play how they want?

    Play how you want just don’t use the tool to bludgeon people. I wanted to change my build to be what i thought was effective. I followed their commands and the got ridiculed for following meta what I am assuming most of you wanted.... so your right you want to dictate how I play and then make fun of me of how I play it..... that seems much better?

©2010–2018 ArenaNet, LLC. All rights reserved. Guild Wars, Guild Wars 2, Heart of Thorns, Guild Wars 2: Path of Fire, ArenaNet, NCSOFT, the Interlocking NC Logo, and all associated logos and designs are trademarks or registered trademarks of NCSOFT Corporation. All other trademarks are the property of their respective owners.