Dungeons from old and new player perspective — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Dungeons from old and new player perspective

Hello everyone, I just went with some new player in the Ascalonians Catacombs dungeon.
I have to say that we had a decent experience on the P1, even though a NPC bugged for about 5 minutes (Hodgins was supposed to use his scepter and he did not). The dungeon was fun, and we did it "the old way" with some stealth stacking and all. It was however pretty easy, even for total beginners, when we killed the end boss they told me : "is it the end ? I can't believe that was the end boss". That would not happend some years ago, since the dungeons were a lot harder. I don't mind making them a bit easier but when there is no difficulty, there is no need for people to do good, to get interested in the complex combat system that Guild Wars 2 offers.
Another issue that I faced (they did not), is that there is no point at stacking might by blasting fire AOEs. Well this used to be a very fun mechanic, and we sadly got rid of it with all classes and traits adding might far too easily. We (I) also got a bit disappointed by the rewards it gave us, the gold amount is sadly pretty low and there is no "loot", by that I mean most stuff you get from these dungeons are outdated, they haven't been updated and are sadly not relevant.
That being said, we then went for the P2. Sadly Detha bugged in the trap phase, so we couldn't continue. I feel really sorry about that but you know what ? This was their first experience in dungeons and they were supposed to buy the expansion next week. I think that they still will buy those, but you have to know that facing bugs, especially for their first dungeon is a big drawback.

Besides all that, let me try to summarize our experience. The dungeon was medium fun : they would be a lot funnier if they were harder. We sadly got low rewards so there is no real interest at doing them daily.

What do I advice to devs ? Enhance the dungeon difficulty : make it so people need to pay attention to what spells they have, to how combo fiels work, to what buffs are important. Upgrade the rewards, so it is a key path for players, dungeons are way more fun that open world content, and I'm not saying that about myself only : it is a good way to learn and use your character and actually have impact on what is happening.

Comments

  • Hannelore.8153Hannelore.8153 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 1, 2019

    The problem isn't dungeons, its that power creep (like stacking conditions, and much better builds) have made them obsolete, and even new players that are underlevelled and undergeared will benefit from alot of it, if even a single EXP player joins their party.

    One thing that particularly affected older content was the additional of real healers, like the Druid and Revenant (and oldschool healers, like the Ele, with %heal modifiers), and as a result you see people barely getting hurt in content that was designed for dodging.

    I mean, a Revenant can do 1k Regeneration ticks, thats more HPS than most players #6 skills.


    Btw, ArenaNet no longer has a dungeon team since years, so no changes will be made to them.

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  • Linken.6345Linken.6345 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Were all of you level 35 the intended level for said dungeon?
    If not ofcourse it will feel easy.
    The reward for dungeons was nerfed for every specific path but if you do 8 dif ones you get 150 tokens of choice and 5 gold in addition to every thing that drops etc.
    Its actualy not that bad, just that there is so much other content out there people enjoy doing aswell. ( at the start there was nothing else then dungeons or orr/frostgoresound champ/event farms.)

  • Upgrade the rewards

    As noted above, the rewards for doing 8 unique paths are competitive with open world rewards, even including many farms (depending on how efficient your team is at either/both). Roughly speaking, 8 dungeons per day are worth 11-15 gold these days; before the 'nerf', they were worth 11-13 gold

    Khar the Charr's Dungeon Profits
    tl;dr version

    • The most important part of dungeon profitability is: token rewards
    • The most valuable way to turn tokens into gold is via trinket recipes (that will eventually drop for those who farm enough)
    • Including tokens, dungeons are better than they used to be

    Fractal Rares' Dungeon Profits
    tl;dr version

    • The average player (8 paths/day) lost around a measly 1g in liquid rewards, but gained twice as many tokens. (at LEAST 470)
    • The experienced player (16 paths/day) lost anywhere from 2-7g in liquid rewards, but gained at least 790 tokens.
    • The extreme minority of full clear runners (20 paths/day) lost 8g, and gained at least 1420 tokens

    See also:
    https://old.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/90wwix/why_do_we_not_have_a_separate_daily_for_dungeons/

    Btw, ArenaNet no longer has a dungeon team since years, so no changes will be made to them.

    There is an active team working on GW2's modern dungeons, which are better known as fractals. There is no team working on the original dungeons. The tools used are (even for ANet) antiquated: according to one dev, it took 8x as long to fix a bug in the old dungeons as it does in the new ones.

    Some people find a major distinction between the original dungeons and fractal dungeons; many do not, including ANet.

    Hype is the path to the dark side. Hype leads to unfulfilled expectations. Disappointment leads to anger. Anger leads to disgust. Disgust leads to "oh, new shinies! I'm back!"

  • Talindra.4958Talindra.4958 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:

    Upgrade the rewards

    As noted above, the rewards for doing 8 unique paths are competitive with open world rewards, even including many farms (depending on how efficient your team is at either/both). Roughly speaking, 8 dungeons per day are worth 11-15 gold these days; before the 'nerf', they were worth 11-13 gold

    the gold reward 11-13 gold is upon completing the entire dungeon path right. its not like you get gold reward per dungeon .. used to be I only do few dungeons.. (I haven't done it in donkey years so I might have the name wrong).. I used to just do ascalon dungeon and two others speedy one.. .. do we still get same gold reward per dungeon now? if so I will go back and start to farm it again. because to do the entire path I do not have the patience for it but if I can select which one I like to do instead of having to do it all..

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  • Talindra.4958Talindra.4958 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 1, 2019

    i am not sure why we insist on saying it is the same .. trying to match the case with another case.. clearly we can see in LFG dungeon run is not as 'glory' as before and there is a reason for it. there is no need to match picture with another picture to stand the argument i think. no point on it.
    the answer is needed on why... WHY, dungeon LFG is not the same as before not as populated before? for those who are so good at answering everything.. i am sure you have good answer to this.
    and.. again fractal the mist is different to dungeon because it was meant to be a fraction of memory from LS or fractions of events and moments.
    traditionally, dungeon as we learn from all RPG, it is an instance that goes with map as we explore. this is the dungeon .. i wish we will be getting on top of raids instance, on top of ls update, on top of fractal update, pvp, wvw etc. the new dungeon that comes with map link in with what is currently happen with the game, in terms of skills and new specialisation. i know it is too much to ask for.
    but to be honest.. with recent multiple updates.. dragon bash and so on.. i am quite happy with how the game is.. there is a lot of things to do. so i am not too fuss with no dungeon for the moment.

    going back to OP, yes, there is no dungeon update to line up with current new specialisation and etc.. there is no intention to do that, the discussion has been brought up long ago .. eventho it is fun and many players will come back to it. but for some reason i don't think update of dungeon is in their agenda. but keeping in mind we have a lot of updates somewhere else. and you can experience similar dungeon party feeling with fractal runs - i know its not dungeon as to feel

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  • @Talindra.4958 said:

    @Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:

    Upgrade the rewards

    As noted above, the rewards for doing 8 unique paths are competitive with open world rewards, even including many farms (depending on how efficient your team is at either/both). Roughly speaking, 8 dungeons per day are worth 11-15 gold these days; before the 'nerf', they were worth 11-13 gold

    the gold reward 11-13 gold is upon completing the entire dungeon path right. its not like you get gold reward per dungeon .. used to be I only do few dungeons.. (I haven't done it in donkey years so I might have the name wrong).. I used to just do ascalon dungeon and two others speedy one.. .. do we still get same gold reward per dungeon now? if so I will go back and start to farm it again. because to do the entire path I do not have the patience for it but if I can select which one I like to do instead of having to do it all..

    There's still gold per run and there's 5g for completing 8 unique paths. In addition, there's the bonus amount of tokens.
    The paths need not be completed on the same day; the reward is granted whenever you do the 8th unique path.

    If you did 3 dungeons regularly before, then depending on the paths, your old routine might still work.

    Hype is the path to the dark side. Hype leads to unfulfilled expectations. Disappointment leads to anger. Anger leads to disgust. Disgust leads to "oh, new shinies! I'm back!"

  • @Talindra.4958 said:
    i am not sure why we insist on saying it is the same .. trying to match the case with another case.. clearly we can see in LFG dungeon run is not as 'glory' as before and there is a reason for it. there is no need to match picture with another picture to stand the argument i think. no point on it.
    the answer is needed on why... WHY, dungeon LFG is not the same as before not as populated before? for those who are so good at answering everything.. i am sure you have good answer to this.

    There are a variety of reasons, not the least of which is that during the glory days of dungeons, that's all the post-80 instanced content that there was. It was also one of the only options for farming. And it was new.

    These days, there's a lot more competition for things to do, and lots of veterans have done dungeons so many times, they might be happy to never do them again.

    We see the same thing happen with any open world farm: if it's competitive with Silverwastes in gold-per-hour, then people have been happy to drop SW because how many times can anyone do it before their eyes bleed.

    tl;dr dungeons aren't the only post-80, instanced option. They aren't the only farm. They aren't new.

    and.. again fractal the mist is different to dungeon because it was meant to be a fraction of memory from LS or fractions of events and moments.

    Both are instanced content, meant predominantly for post-80 players. Both tell stories: originals are linked to personal story; fractals are linked to LS1 and other bits of lore we haven't explored.

    They are certainly different in other ways: the tools used to build them are different, the characters are drawn from different arenas, and of course, as noted, the tools the developers used to make them are different. Fundamentally, though: they are both instanced, end-game content for small groups.

    I'm not saying that means people should like them equally. I just mean that people should be specific when asking for "more dungeons" about the parts that they like. Often, it's just "old dungeons: good; new: bad" and that makes it hard to have a discussion about it or for ANet to consider changing their plans to accommodate whatever it is that some folks prefer.

    Hype is the path to the dark side. Hype leads to unfulfilled expectations. Disappointment leads to anger. Anger leads to disgust. Disgust leads to "oh, new shinies! I'm back!"

  • Talindra.4958Talindra.4958 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:

    @Talindra.4958 said:

    @Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:

    Upgrade the rewards

    As noted above, the rewards for doing 8 unique paths are competitive with open world rewards, even including many farms (depending on how efficient your team is at either/both). Roughly speaking, 8 dungeons per day are worth 11-15 gold these days; before the 'nerf', they were worth 11-13 gold

    the gold reward 11-13 gold is upon completing the entire dungeon path right. its not like you get gold reward per dungeon .. used to be I only do few dungeons.. (I haven't done it in donkey years so I might have the name wrong).. I used to just do ascalon dungeon and two others speedy one.. .. do we still get same gold reward per dungeon now? if so I will go back and start to farm it again. because to do the entire path I do not have the patience for it but if I can select which one I like to do instead of having to do it all..

    There's still gold per run and there's 5g for completing 8 unique paths. In addition, there's the bonus amount of tokens.
    The paths need not be completed on the same day; the reward is granted whenever you do the 8th unique path.

    If you did 3 dungeons regularly before, then depending on the paths, your old routine might still work.

    definitely isnt as farmable as before where each path from memory was 1g and players can pick any easy path to get decent daily farm .. now the only good reason to go back is token or certain runes
    I dont find much motivation to do a full dungeon path clear daily for 13g..
    Solo arah is still quite popular among the elite players but for dungeon farm a lot of the common players shy away
    It is what it is

    Death is Energy [DIE] in EU
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  • Linken.6345Linken.6345 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Talindra.4958 said:

    @Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:

    @Talindra.4958 said:

    @Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:

    Upgrade the rewards

    As noted above, the rewards for doing 8 unique paths are competitive with open world rewards, even including many farms (depending on how efficient your team is at either/both). Roughly speaking, 8 dungeons per day are worth 11-15 gold these days; before the 'nerf', they were worth 11-13 gold

    the gold reward 11-13 gold is upon completing the entire dungeon path right. its not like you get gold reward per dungeon .. used to be I only do few dungeons.. (I haven't done it in donkey years so I might have the name wrong).. I used to just do ascalon dungeon and two others speedy one.. .. do we still get same gold reward per dungeon now? if so I will go back and start to farm it again. because to do the entire path I do not have the patience for it but if I can select which one I like to do instead of having to do it all..

    There's still gold per run and there's 5g for completing 8 unique paths. In addition, there's the bonus amount of tokens.
    The paths need not be completed on the same day; the reward is granted whenever you do the 8th unique path.

    If you did 3 dungeons regularly before, then depending on the paths, your old routine might still work.

    definitely isnt as farmable as before where each path from memory was 1g and players can pick any easy path to get decent daily farm .. now the only good reason to go back is token or certain runes
    I dont find much motivation to do a full dungeon path clear daily for 13g..
    Solo arah is still quite popular among the elite players but for dungeon farm a lot of the common players shy away
    It is what it is

    You could do ta up, forward ac 1, 3 se 1 or cof 1 and coe 1,2 +3 for your 8 unique paths.
    Those are the ones I find easiest.

  • Yugz.6925Yugz.6925 Member ✭✭

    For people that said that AC is supposed to be done by level 35 I would say that this is very far from reality, story modes should be done by low level players, not exploration modes.
    It seems very obvious that there isn't that much people leveling up anymore (level 80 boosters, tomes of knowledge and birthday boosters), and even less trying to do dungeons. Dungeons should be lv 80 content as it used to be. There was something about dungeons that you won't find in fractals or raids, that's everything about using your class at "its full potential" : more than being a DPS or an healer, being a thief would imply blasting in smokefields for example (in order to do that you had to swap weapons, skills, traits) so you could skip mobs and do it faster. We kinda lost class identity in PvE in my opinion, which we had back then pre-HoT. Guild Wars 2 combat system is wonderful, sadly, using it at its full potential isn't required anymore in most content, and I feel very sorry for that.
    However I wouldn't say that it's too late, because there is a lot of people that are missing the same thing that I am, and I have no doubt that if dungeons were slightly changed, there would be a lot of players (experienced or not) that would enjoy that content.

  • Talindra.4958Talindra.4958 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Linken.6345 said:
    You could do ta up, forward ac 1, 3 se 1 or cof 1 and coe 1,2 +3 for your 8 unique paths.
    Those are the ones I find easiest.

    tht's correct. it will take a while to complete all that.

    Death is Energy [DIE] in EU
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  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 2, 2019

    @Talindra.4958 said:

    @Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:

    @Talindra.4958 said:

    @Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:

    Upgrade the rewards

    As noted above, the rewards for doing 8 unique paths are competitive with open world rewards, even including many farms (depending on how efficient your team is at either/both). Roughly speaking, 8 dungeons per day are worth 11-15 gold these days; before the 'nerf', they were worth 11-13 gold

    the gold reward 11-13 gold is upon completing the entire dungeon path right. its not like you get gold reward per dungeon .. used to be I only do few dungeons.. (I haven't done it in donkey years so I might have the name wrong).. I used to just do ascalon dungeon and two others speedy one.. .. do we still get same gold reward per dungeon now? if so I will go back and start to farm it again. because to do the entire path I do not have the patience for it but if I can select which one I like to do instead of having to do it all..

    There's still gold per run and there's 5g for completing 8 unique paths. In addition, there's the bonus amount of tokens.
    The paths need not be completed on the same day; the reward is granted whenever you do the 8th unique path.

    If you did 3 dungeons regularly before, then depending on the paths, your old routine might still work.

    definitely isnt as farmable as before where each path from memory was 1g and players can pick any easy path to get decent daily farm .. now the only good reason to go back is token or certain runes
    I dont find much motivation to do a full dungeon path clear daily for 13g..
    Solo arah is still quite popular among the elite players but for dungeon farm a lot of the common players shy away
    It is what it is

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Dungeon

    The gold reward was moved from the end of the dungeon to the 5 gold rewarded for completing 8 unique dungeons. Individual gold reward was adjusted to length of each path. 5 gold divided by 8 is aproximately 62 silver per dungeon on top of the end dungeon gold. This pushes the 50 silver dungeons to 1.12 gold and the 35 silver dungeons to 92 silver. Pretty much en par with the old dungeons rewards.

    This was done to discourge farming the same paths over and over again.

    As IWN mentioned, all farms are under a lot more competition today. Back when dungeons were popular it was basically dungeons or Silverwastes. Today dungeon farming competes with:

    • still Silverwastes
    • open world farms like Istan
    • Bounty farms in PoF
    • meta events in HoT
    • fractals as well as fractal farms
    • material farms of different types
    • etc.

    Most significant though, most of those farms do not require a party and can be done solo. Hence why a lot of players opt to just solo farm (even if for meta events where there is basically a lot of solo players just bunched together).

  • Yugz.6925Yugz.6925 Member ✭✭

    The fact is also that "hard" content, because I truly believe that dungeons were a lot harder than just meta event, is not rewarded as it should be. Making meta events the most viable way to make gold turn people to lazy turkeys and that's not enjoyable for any player.

  • zoomborg.9462zoomborg.9462 Member ✭✭✭

    @Yugz.6925 said:
    Hello everyone, I just went with some new player in the Ascalonians Catacombs dungeon.
    I have to say that we had a decent experience on the P1, even though a NPC bugged for about 5 minutes (Hodgins was supposed to use his scepter and he did not). The dungeon was fun, and we did it "the old way" with some stealth stacking and all. It was however pretty easy, even for total beginners, when we killed the end boss they told me : "is it the end ? I can't believe that was the end boss". That would not happend some years ago, since the dungeons were a lot harder. I don't mind making them a bit easier but when there is no difficulty, there is no need for people to do good, to get interested in the complex combat system that Guild Wars 2 offers.
    Another issue that I faced (they did not), is that there is no point at stacking might by blasting fire AOEs. Well this used to be a very fun mechanic, and we sadly got rid of it with all classes and traits adding might far too easily. We (I) also got a bit disappointed by the rewards it gave us, the gold amount is sadly pretty low and there is no "loot", by that I mean most stuff you get from these dungeons are outdated, they haven't been updated and are sadly not relevant.
    That being said, we then went for the P2. Sadly Detha bugged in the trap phase, so we couldn't continue. I feel really sorry about that but you know what ? This was their first experience in dungeons and they were supposed to buy the expansion next week. I think that they still will buy those, but you have to know that facing bugs, especially for their first dungeon is a big drawback.

    Besides all that, let me try to summarize our experience. The dungeon was medium fun : they would be a lot funnier if they were harder. We sadly got low rewards so there is no real interest at doing them daily.

    What do I advice to devs ? Enhance the dungeon difficulty : make it so people need to pay attention to what spells they have, to how combo fiels work, to what buffs are important. Upgrade the rewards, so it is a key path for players, dungeons are way more fun that open world content, and I'm not saying that about myself only : it is a good way to learn and use your character and actually have impact on what is happening.

    Im writing this here so people know, on p1 if you spawn oozes or let the gravelings attack when you go in the big room with the scepter pieces npc gets aggro until you kill them.
    On p2 Detha is by far the buggiest NPC, if the one she follows dies she will instantly bug.

    On p3 after you open the tunnel to go to the last boss the gravelings will attack the npc when he passes through. You have to either kill the gravelings or skip them and kill the boss really fast b4 the gravelings kill the NPC. If the NPC gets killed, he will bug and reviving will not fix it.

  • Linken.6345Linken.6345 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @zoomborg.9462 said:

    @Yugz.6925 said:
    Hello everyone, I just went with some new player in the Ascalonians Catacombs dungeon.
    I have to say that we had a decent experience on the P1, even though a NPC bugged for about 5 minutes (Hodgins was supposed to use his scepter and he did not). The dungeon was fun, and we did it "the old way" with some stealth stacking and all. It was however pretty easy, even for total beginners, when we killed the end boss they told me : "is it the end ? I can't believe that was the end boss". That would not happend some years ago, since the dungeons were a lot harder. I don't mind making them a bit easier but when there is no difficulty, there is no need for people to do good, to get interested in the complex combat system that Guild Wars 2 offers.
    Another issue that I faced (they did not), is that there is no point at stacking might by blasting fire AOEs. Well this used to be a very fun mechanic, and we sadly got rid of it with all classes and traits adding might far too easily. We (I) also got a bit disappointed by the rewards it gave us, the gold amount is sadly pretty low and there is no "loot", by that I mean most stuff you get from these dungeons are outdated, they haven't been updated and are sadly not relevant.
    That being said, we then went for the P2. Sadly Detha bugged in the trap phase, so we couldn't continue. I feel really sorry about that but you know what ? This was their first experience in dungeons and they were supposed to buy the expansion next week. I think that they still will buy those, but you have to know that facing bugs, especially for their first dungeon is a big drawback.

    Besides all that, let me try to summarize our experience. The dungeon was medium fun : they would be a lot funnier if they were harder. We sadly got low rewards so there is no real interest at doing them daily.

    What do I advice to devs ? Enhance the dungeon difficulty : make it so people need to pay attention to what spells they have, to how combo fiels work, to what buffs are important. Upgrade the rewards, so it is a key path for players, dungeons are way more fun that open world content, and I'm not saying that about myself only : it is a good way to learn and use your character and actually have impact on what is happening.

    Im writing this here so people know, on p1 if you spawn oozes or let the gravelings attack when you go in the big room with the scepter pieces npc gets aggro until you kill them.
    On p2 Detha is by far the buggiest NPC, if the one she follows dies she will instantly bug.

    On p3 after you open the tunnel to go to the last boss the gravelings will attack the npc when he passes through. You have to either kill the gravelings or skip them and kill the boss really fast b4 the gravelings kill the NPC. If the NPC gets killed, he will bug and reviving will not fix it.

    Well the OP is going to kill all the red taged npcs so most of what you write wont be a problem,

  • lare.5129lare.5129 Member ✭✭✭

    It is easy if you have at 3/5 skilled exp in party. If skilled 1 or less - this is cosmic pain and gain ...
    yesterday we have try do CM dungeon, all 80, 3 was not exp .. It was hard.

    So next time when you want get more action in AC, don't write 'only 80 exp', say 'welcome all'. And any question about difficulty will be fade asap.

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @lare.5129 said:
    It is easy if you have at 3/5 skilled exp in party. If skilled 1 or less - this is cosmic pain and gain ...
    yesterday we have try do CM dungeon, all 80, 3 was not exp .. It was hard.

    So next time when you want get more action in AC, don't write 'only 80 exp', say 'welcome all'. And any question about difficulty will be fade asap.

    True having someone that know the path mechanisms and strategy polished through countless dungeon runs can easily trivialize the difficulty for new players. Put the same new players with no guides/experience into the same path and they will just be glad that the last thing they killed was the last boss of this path.

    To take CM path 2 as an example, there is some very easy tricks that can trivialize the whole path but if nobody know them you're just gonna have to suffer some real hard time.

  • Nephalem.8921Nephalem.8921 Member ✭✭✭

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    @lare.5129 said:
    It is easy if you have at 3/5 skilled exp in party. If skilled 1 or less - this is cosmic pain and gain ...
    yesterday we have try do CM dungeon, all 80, 3 was not exp .. It was hard.

    So next time when you want get more action in AC, don't write 'only 80 exp', say 'welcome all'. And any question about difficulty will be fade asap.

    True having someone that know the path mechanisms and strategy polished through countless dungeon runs can easily trivialize the difficulty for new players. Put the same new players with no guides/experience into the same path and they will just be glad that the last thing they killed was the last boss of this path.

    To take CM path 2 as an example, there is some very easy tricks that can trivialize the whole path but if nobody know them you're just gonna have to suffer some real hard time.

    Is the easy trick using stealth? It's quite sad that it isn't really used in fractals anymore. Dungeons played quite differently from fractals. Was more important to get to the bosses fast instead of having best group dps.
    Miss that approach in the new fractal design where all the trash is unskippable.
    That's also why players struggle with arah to this day. The trash was never meant to be killed.

  • Vinceman.4572Vinceman.4572 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Nephalem.8921 said:

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    @lare.5129 said:
    It is easy if you have at 3/5 skilled exp in party. If skilled 1 or less - this is cosmic pain and gain ...
    yesterday we have try do CM dungeon, all 80, 3 was not exp .. It was hard.

    So next time when you want get more action in AC, don't write 'only 80 exp', say 'welcome all'. And any question about difficulty will be fade asap.

    True having someone that know the path mechanisms and strategy polished through countless dungeon runs can easily trivialize the difficulty for new players. Put the same new players with no guides/experience into the same path and they will just be glad that the last thing they killed was the last boss of this path.

    To take CM path 2 as an example, there is some very easy tricks that can trivialize the whole path but if nobody know them you're just gonna have to suffer some real hard time.

    Is the easy trick using stealth? It's quite sad that it isn't really used in fractals anymore. Dungeons played quite differently from fractals. Was more important to get to the bosses fast instead of having best group dps.
    Miss that approach in the new fractal design where all the trash is unskippable.
    That's also why players struggle with arah to this day. The trash was never meant to be killed.

    But it's also sad that people are only able to skip trash mobs with stealth, some even rant about if you don't run with them like lemmings. I've always found it more skillful to skip trash alone instead of stealthing through with a thief, mesmer or gyroscope. (I've nothing against executioners axe, choya tonic, feathers and the kits)
    And I will skip alone in the future. I even let them run in front so they can't blame me due to pulled mobs that interfere with their standard route because they can't anticipate. Those are the worst players. They can literally stealth and unload their dps. If anything is different they wipe but hey, they are dungeoneers.
    There are even groups that don't run Arah without a thief or a mesmer because "We have no stealth, we can't win." Makes me cry every fxcking time.

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Nephalem.8921 said:

    @Dadnir.5038 said:
    True having someone that know the path mechanisms and strategy polished through countless dungeon runs can easily trivialize the difficulty for new players. Put the same new players with no guides/experience into the same path and they will just be glad that the last thing they killed was the last boss of this path.

    To take CM path 2 as an example, there is some very easy tricks that can trivialize the whole path but if nobody know them you're just gonna have to suffer some real hard time.

    Is the easy trick using stealth? It's quite sad that it isn't really used in fractals anymore. Dungeons played quite differently from fractals. Was more important to get to the bosses fast instead of having best group dps.
    Miss that approach in the new fractal design where all the trash is unskippable.
    That's also why players struggle with arah to this day. The trash was never meant to be killed.

    Well, stealth is a part of the tricks, knowing where you need to leave a barrel to trivialize breaking the door or where you can lure the final boss to make it's fight safe are also useful tricks in CM P2 that players worked hard to find. Having a competent thief that know the mechanisms and how to carry it's team throught the different paths via stealth in CM is never a waste. From a more general point of view, knowing where you have to stack to optimize your party DPS is also an useful trick. Preparing reflect skills for the bosses on which it's useful can make or break a dungeon dive. Knowing the godforsaken order in which the skelks nest appear in AC is also an invaluable knowledge when it come to conquer the path. There are tons of those tricks that accumulated over time and are now common knowledge for the veterans. If you put yourself in the shoes of a new player that don't know those tricks and is sent into a dungeon with 4 other clueless players, don't you think that you'll struggle to do something that take an average of 5-10 minute for a veteran party to complete?

    Truly, no amount of powercreep in the various professions can beat the knowledge and tricks accumulated over time when it come to trivializing the various dungeons paths. Put the most efficient team with the best build possible into a dungeon on which they've never done and they will struggle to complete it. Put a veteran team in green gear and core profession but with the knowledge of the dungeons and the various tricks available and they will complete most of the paths in under 10 minutes.

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