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Squad merging to troll people

Hello
Most of us have heard of it already, but it is possible to merge a group with a squad which will result in the teammembers being kicked out of the fractal instance.
Today i have been griefed by this method, while our group has cleared the Reactor fractal and was waiting at the boss for the 5th person in lfg.

An easy hotfix for this (temporarily) would be disabling squadmerging for a group. People would still be able to join squads and a group would just need to leave its current group to rejoin a squad together. This is badly needed as the griefer i have encountered has done this to many groups in lfg (discription of lfg were already things like "screw the merger").

A better solution is having to accept a squadmerge, since squadmerges are a nice mechanic but the current griefing in lfg has made opening LFG while in an instance a scary thing to do.

Also i would like to remind that this thread is not about nameshaming, i myself have screenshots of people admitting it and telling me they are "untouchable", but lets keep the discussion civil and if you have any names / screenshots post them to the support.

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Comments

  • @Benjamin Arnold.3457 said:
    This has been moved to the top of my priority list, and I am investigating code solutions as we speak. I have contacted CS but I can't comment on if any action that would be taken against the perpetrators, both because I don't know, and because it isn't for me to say.

    Thank you VERY much. I have yet to be a victim of these malicious players, but I'm grateful for putting this issue at the top of your priority list so no one else will suffer in the future (once the fix is made). :)

  • @Benjamin Arnold.3457 said:
    This has been moved to the top of my priority list, and I am investigating code solutions as we speak. I have contacted CS but I can't comment on any action that would be taken against the perpetrators, both because I don't know, and because it isn't for me to say.

    Thanks for the update and for keeping us posted.

    Hype is the path to the dark side. Hype leads to unfulfilled expectations. Disappointment leads to anger. Anger leads to disgust. Disgust leads to "oh, new shinies! I'm back!"

  • Can't wait to see a fix on this, it's been such a pain! Even in regular PvE. Happily running around with a group, to suddenly have a squad size doubled, with half of it on a different map entirely, and everyone not in the new portion of the group getting kicked out, to have to reform in our instance. It really throws a wrench in the gears.

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  • @Benjamin Arnold.3457 said:
    This has been moved to the top of my priority list, and I am investigating code solutions as we speak. I have contacted CS but I can't comment on any action that would be taken against the perpetrators, both because I don't know, and because it isn't for me to say.

    Thank you very much!

  • Thank you @Benjamin Arnold.3457 . What if the squad leader/creator retains all merge privileges as well as being immune to being kicked from that squad? We should also have an option to transfer ownership by right clicking anyone we want (as the leader).

  • Ive never understood why the party system in this game doesnt work like the ones in every single other MMO.
    i.e only the leader and the people the leader assigns can make any changes to the party.

  • Dante.1763Dante.1763 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Parlance.9584 said:
    Ive never understood why the party system in this game doesnt work like the ones in every single other MMO.
    i.e only the leader and the people the leader assigns can make any changes to the party.

    It used to back when the game came out, at some point it got changed, though i cant remember the reason for it.

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  • @Dante.1763 said:

    @Parlance.9584 said:
    Ive never understood why the party system in this game doesnt work like the ones in every single other MMO.
    i.e only the leader and the people the leader assigns can make any changes to the party.

    It used to back when the game came out, at some point it got changed, though i cant remember the reason for it.

    That's, ironically, because a number of leaders ended up enjoying their power too much. Besides trolling and power trips, there were also some common problems associated with the old model - the main one was that party often had to quit and restart if something happened to the party leader (and in some cases even a simple dc could kick everyone from the instance).

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Dante.1763 said:

    @Parlance.9584 said:
    Ive never understood why the party system in this game doesnt work like the ones in every single other MMO.
    i.e only the leader and the people the leader assigns can make any changes to the party.

    It used to back when the game came out, at some point it got changed, though i cant remember the reason for it.

    That's, ironically, because a number of leaders ended up enjoying their power too much. Besides trolling and power trips, there were also some common problems associated with the old model - the main one was that party often had to quit and restart if something happened to the party leader (and in some cases even a simple dc could kick everyone from the instance).

    To add on to this, it also made it a lot easier for the party leader to arbitrarily kick someone they did not like, wanted to replace with a friend/guildmate, or they simply thought were not skilled enough. By making it more of a democracy, it decreased a lot of party griefing/abuse. It still exists, but a lot less now.

  • Henry.5713Henry.5713 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Parlance.9584 said:
    Ive never understood why the party system in this game doesnt work like the ones in every single other MMO.
    i.e only the leader and the people the leader assigns can make any changes to the party.

    The current system is supposed to be more social and make you play together rather than have a leader pull all of the strings. There was also the issue with kicking everyone from the instance if the leader left. Besides, It worked well enough up to this point.
    Squads went back to a more basic system with a commander and possible officers. It was having both of them in the game that seems to cause these issues. I hope it will get fixed soon.

    Progress isn't made by early risers. It's made by lazy men trying to find easier ways to do something. ~ Robert Heinlein

  • @Astralporing.1957 said:
    That's, ironically, because a number of leaders ended up enjoying their power too much. Besides trolling and power trips, there were also some common problems associated with the old model - the main one was that party often had to quit and restart if something happened to the party leader (and in some cases even a simple dc could kick everyone from the instance).

    Well they should probably make it a vote-based system where the entire party gets to vote on things like merges and such, then it'd be pretty fair. Kicking the leader should be impossible though.

  • @paddystar.2879 said:
    Hello
    Most of us have heard of it already, but it is possible to merge a group with a squad which will result in the teammembers being kicked out of the fractal instance.
    Today i have been griefed by this method, while our group has cleared the Reactor fractal and was waiting at the boss for the 5th person in lfg.

    An easy hotfix for this (temporarily) would be disabling squadmerging for a group. People would still be able to join squads and a group would just need to leave its current group to rejoin a squad together. This is badly needed as the griefer i have encountered has done this to many groups in lfg (discription of lfg were already things like "screw the merger").

    A better solution is having to accept a squadmerge, since squadmerges are a nice mechanic but the current griefing in lfg has made opening LFG while in an instance a scary thing to do.

    Also i would like to remind that this thread is not about nameshaming, i myself have screenshots of people admitting it and telling me they are "untouchable", but lets keep the discussion civil and if you have any names / screenshots post them to the support.

    Just had this happen 2x in a row on Ensolyss @ 33%. Wasted almost my entire morning before work. Please fix.

  • @Benjamin Arnold.3457 said:
    I'm sorry this has happened. I have a fix that will ship with PoF.

    Huzzah! Thank you, Anet! <3

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  • @Benjamin Arnold.3457 said:

    @Fallesafe.5932 said:

    @paddystar.2879 said:
    Hello
    Most of us have heard of it already, but it is possible to merge a group with a squad which will result in the teammembers being kicked out of the fractal instance.
    Today i have been griefed by this method, while our group has cleared the Reactor fractal and was waiting at the boss for the 5th person in lfg.

    An easy hotfix for this (temporarily) would be disabling squadmerging for a group. People would still be able to join squads and a group would just need to leave its current group to rejoin a squad together. This is badly needed as the griefer i have encountered has done this to many groups in lfg (discription of lfg were already things like "screw the merger").

    A better solution is having to accept a squadmerge, since squadmerges are a nice mechanic but the current griefing in lfg has made opening LFG while in an instance a scary thing to do.

    Also i would like to remind that this thread is not about nameshaming, i myself have screenshots of people admitting it and telling me they are "untouchable", but lets keep the discussion civil and if you have any names / screenshots post them to the support.

    Just had this happen 2x in a row on Ensolyss @ 33%. Wasted almost my entire morning before work. Please fix.

    I'm sorry this has happened. I have a fix that will ship with PoF.

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  • Something similar happen to me, LFG abuse, a while ago. We were doing fractals, there was this guy constantly AFK and i said hurry because it was already to much. Anyway he was all insulting and such, no big deal i dont mind. Problem is the other 4 were all friends and they allowed me to continue the fractal all good. At the end when the boss was 1% they kicked me out. I wasted my time, no reward no nothing, that is the worse troll and thing that have ever happen to me in GW2. Sadly i think GW2 is getting a little too toxic. I reported them for LFG abuse but i bet anet didnt even send them a warning but i dont know.

  • While this has never happened to me, I do hope the troll(s) in question get banned. Maybe I'm overly optimistic, though?

  • As I know, kicking people befor the boss dies in dungeons or in fractals is a bannable offence (Might be not true)

  • @Esprit Dumort.3109 said:
    To add on to this, it also made it a lot easier for the party leader to arbitrarily kick someone they did not like, wanted to replace with a friend/guildmate, or they simply thought were not skilled enough. By making it more of a democracy, it decreased a lot of party griefing/abuse. It still exists, but a lot less now.

    I would say it exists even more in abundance then before. Since raids replaced dungeons as pve endgame, this behavior is arguably even worse with squads bc of how much control one person has over their squad. The last thing i would say of a raid environment is that it is a democracy.. i don't think anyone would say that tbh.

    In terms of such behavior happening before hot though, it happened but rarely i would say. I had it happen a few times at last boss, didn't bother me much though. I remember once we were doing TA dungeon and there was a heated argument between me and one other person.. the atmosphere was pretty tense come last boss. Then something unexpected came, when boss was at 1% the person said something like 'thanks for the dps!" and vote kicked me. I would assume it was a friend or a guild run group, bc the kick happened instantaneously.

    I actually glad this not happen a lot anymore (with fractal/dungeon groups). A few days back I was doing mai trin t4, i was playing bad on purpose cos i didnt feel like trying. one aother guy vote-kicked me halfway thru fight, but no one else accept. after we finish kill boss and we disband he's whisper me like 'you are a terrible warrior, don't play this game again'. I thought it was hilarious lol.. and also glad that i don't get kicked cos of one person opinion in fotm (unless they backed by friends).

  • I hope people who have done this and got reported actually get punished because it's complete a*** thing to do!

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  • nagr.1593nagr.1593 Member ✭✭
    edited September 17, 2017

    @Gargoyle First of all it was a typical pug, with no healer or condi cleanse, so I figured it was each man for himself. To clarify by playing bad I meant being lazy on rotations and downing more oft than others cos of carelessness; not trying purposefully to die every chance I got. I don't see how that's an issue, as I have carried worse players on say swamp t4, where a guy continuously dies to bloom no matter what we do. In this scenario I might trash talk the inept player and refuse to res him along with others, but would not randomly call kicks without stating a reason beforehand.

    The issue about players kicking me on sight arises prevalently in raids, where holding long-standing personal grudges is commonplace enough to be a staple for pugs. This is an instanced content separate from fractals, as the atmosphere is more tense and strained in general. If you play bad here, you can expect to be replaced without warning. The thing of it is also that you might also be kicked on join from someone whom you never play with before, simply for showing up with your nametag. This is what I believe you mean when you say an individual is 'kicked on sight' also. The issue here or the reason it's unfair, is that it's textbook example of labeling and predetermination bias, for example backbiting and inferring from rumors.

    tl;dr fractals in t4 and raids are not the same thing at all, so I'm not sure where you drew the comparison.

  • Odokuro.5049Odokuro.5049 Member ✭✭✭

    Happened to my twice in a row, was trying to form a group to finish up a Fractals related achievement, and had the same asuran tempest join my party and merge our group, with that of a squad doing what I believe was triple trouble... Can it be made that party leader is the only one enabled to merge, and for that fact, choose fractal level. Because this is getting me annoyed.

    The Self-Appointed Pervy Sage of Dragonbrand.

  • @Odokuro.5049 said:
    Happened to my twice in a row, was trying to form a group to finish up a Fractals related achievement, and had the same asuran tempest join my party and merge our group, with that of a squad doing what I believe was triple trouble... Can it be made that party leader is the only one enabled to merge, and for that fact, choose fractal level. Because this is getting me annoyed.

    There are no party leaders anymore which is actually a good thing. Before that happened the "party leader" i.e. person who opened instance could not be replaced. If he got kicked the whole party would be kicked from the instance too, even if he simply DC and couldn't come back caused problems as then it was possible to kick them without everyone else getting kicked, but then a new person joining could not join the instance so the party would either had to start over or 4-man the rest anyway.
    The opener also could not change characters once inside as that would kick everyone out too so it was a huge con both ways.

    On the other hand if we leave it to the squad leader to decide to allow the merger it wouldn't really do much. As how is the squad leader suppose to know the party does not want to join his squad? It might however give us time to kick the troll before the squad leader approves it.

  • @Benjamin Arnold.3457 said:

    @Fallesafe.5932 said:

    @paddystar.2879 said:
    Hello
    Most of us have heard of it already, but it is possible to merge a group with a squad which will result in the teammembers being kicked out of the fractal instance.
    Today i have been griefed by this method, while our group has cleared the Reactor fractal and was waiting at the boss for the 5th person in lfg.

    An easy hotfix for this (temporarily) would be disabling squadmerging for a group. People would still be able to join squads and a group would just need to leave its current group to rejoin a squad together. This is badly needed as the griefer i have encountered has done this to many groups in lfg (discription of lfg were already things like "screw the merger").

    A better solution is having to accept a squadmerge, since squadmerges are a nice mechanic but the current griefing in lfg has made opening LFG while in an instance a scary thing to do.

    Also i would like to remind that this thread is not about nameshaming, i myself have screenshots of people admitting it and telling me they are "untouchable", but lets keep the discussion civil and if you have any names / screenshots post them to the support.

    Just had this happen 2x in a row on Ensolyss @ 33%. Wasted almost my entire morning before work. Please fix.

    I'm sorry this has happened. I have a fix that will ship with PoF.

    Nice!! Thank you:)

  • Manasa Devi.7958Manasa Devi.7958 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @HardRider.2980 said:
    I hope people who have done this and got reported actually get punished because it's complete a*** thing to do!

    ANet will generally not disclose this sort of thing, unless it's action taken against a large group of people. I can tell you what I noticed though: several of the people doing this that I had put on my block list have not been online for a few days now. They may have been "actioned" or they're just not playing, or maybe invisible. Make of it what you will. :)

  • @Benjamin Arnold.3457 said:

    @Fallesafe.5932 said:

    @paddystar.2879 said:
    Hello
    Most of us have heard of it already, but it is possible to merge a group with a squad which will result in the teammembers being kicked out of the fractal instance.
    Today i have been griefed by this method, while our group has cleared the Reactor fractal and was waiting at the boss for the 5th person in lfg.

    An easy hotfix for this (temporarily) would be disabling squadmerging for a group. People would still be able to join squads and a group would just need to leave its current group to rejoin a squad together. This is badly needed as the griefer i have encountered has done this to many groups in lfg (discription of lfg were already things like "screw the merger").

    A better solution is having to accept a squadmerge, since squadmerges are a nice mechanic but the current griefing in lfg has made opening LFG while in an instance a scary thing to do.

    Also i would like to remind that this thread is not about nameshaming, i myself have screenshots of people admitting it and telling me they are "untouchable", but lets keep the discussion civil and if you have any names / screenshots post them to the support.

    Just had this happen 2x in a row on Ensolyss @ 33%. Wasted almost my entire morning before work. Please fix.

    I'm sorry this has happened. I have a fix that will ship with PoF.

    Did the fix ship? It wasn't in the patch notes.

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  • Awesome, thanks for the patch note addendum (and, I guess, for the fix, too ;) )

    Hype is the path to the dark side. Hype leads to unfulfilled expectations. Disappointment leads to anger. Anger leads to disgust. Disgust leads to "oh, new shinies! I'm back!"

  • Excellent - this is good news. Thank you.

  • Thank you!

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  • @Benjamin Arnold.3457 said:
    This should be fixed. No patch note because I didn't write one (my bad).

    As of now, you must confirm a squad merge when merging party > squad.

    Squad > squad can still merge without confirmation if there is no commander squad leader.

    Party > party can still merge without confirmation.

    Let me know if you have any other issues relating to this.

    Why can't we have a confirmation option when merging one squad with another? Also, is there an option to lock LFG?

  • @Miss.5930 said:

    @Benjamin Arnold.3457 said:
    This should be fixed. No patch note because I didn't write one (my bad).

    As of now, you must confirm a squad merge when merging party > squad.

    Squad > squad can still merge without confirmation if there is no commander squad leader.

    Party > party can still merge without confirmation.

    Let me know if you have any other issues relating to this.

    Why can't we have a confirmation option when merging one squad with another? Also, is there an option to lock LFG?

    "if there's no commander squad leader". So, if you wish to avoid the problem, have a commander.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • This is not working for squads with commanders. I just had my squad, which I was tagged up and commanding, merged with another squad that also had a commander. Neither of us got a confirmation request.

  • Rising Dusk.2408Rising Dusk.2408 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 2, 2017

    @Greyling.4768 said:
    This is not working for squads with commanders. I just had my squad, which I was tagged up and commanding, merged with another squad that also had a commander. Neither of us got a confirmation request.

    Pinging @Benjamin Arnold.3457.

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  • Benjamin Arnold.3457Benjamin Arnold.3457 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 3, 2017

    @Greyling.4768 said:
    This is not working for squads with commanders. I just had my squad, which I was tagged up and commanding, merged with another squad that also had a commander. Neither of us got a confirmation request.

    I am not able to reproduce this internally. If I have 4 clients separated into two squads, both with a commander leader, only the commander can initiate a merge. I also confirmed this to be the case on live thanks to some players testing it for me. There could be an edge case that we missed, if anyone can figure out a way to reproduce this please PM me (Don't post it here) how you did it so I can work on a fix. As of now, without reproducing it I can't fix it.

    Parties merging into parties is getting looked at separately.

  • @Benjamin Arnold.3457 said:

    @Greyling.4768 said:
    This is not working for squads with commanders. I just had my squad, which I was tagged up and commanding, merged with another squad that also had a commander. Neither of us got a confirmation request.

    I am not able to reproduce this internally. If I have 4 clients separated into two squads, both with a commander leader, only the commander can initiate a merge. I also confirmed this to be the case on live thanks to some players testing it for me. There could be an edge case that we missed, if anyone can figure out a way to reproduce this please PM me (Don't post it here) how you did it so I can work on a fix. As of now, without reproducing it I can't fix it.

    Parties merging into parties is getting looked at separately.

    Haven't been able to repro, but had two instances of this happen yesterday.

    Incident 1:
    Squad 1 - Taxi for Dragon's Stand meta - me as commander
    Squad 2 - Auric Basin octovine squad - commander name unknown
    Result: Someone merged our squads. Squad 2 commander was demoted, and players from squad 2 were kicked to equal player count to 50. Both myself and the other commander are confused as to what happened, as there were no prompts.

    Incident 2:
    Squad 1 - Former Dragon's Stand lane squad, server in respite phase - commander still tagged
    Squad 2 - Dragon's Stand lane squad from a failing server - commander still tagged
    Result: Someone merged our squads. Commander from squad 1 and other squad 1 players are kicked to make room for squad 2 players. Squad 2 commander is confused, while squad 1 commander laughs it off in /map while wondering how someone kicked the commander (him) out of his own squad.

  • reapex.8546reapex.8546 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 13, 2017

    @Benjamin Arnold.3457 said:
    This has been moved to the top of my priority list, and I am investigating code solutions as we speak. I have contacted CS but I can't comment on any action that would be taken against the perpetrators, both because I don't know, and because it isn't for me to say.

    I just noticed you talked about the confirmation prompt idea already. Ignore post below. But a commander's subgroup got merged with another subgroup in Crystal Oasis, without their approval. If I learn more over time, I'll send a DM.

    Imo, I would do this:
    Squad 2 wants to merge with Squad 1 in LFG. Have Squad 1's Commander receive an approval message.
    If Squad 1 Commander agrees, allow the merger.
    If Squad 1 Commander disagrees, do not allow the merger.

  • I had this happen to me Wednesday in Crystal Oasis. I was leading a squad for one legendary bounty and suddenly we were merged with another squad for another bounty. I did not instigate it, nor was I given any sort of prompt to confirm. Same for the other commander, we were suddenly just merged. It caused a bit of confusion and some folks thought one group was trolling another. We ended up just leaving them merged and breaking into separate sub-squads. We were fortunate that we were not doing instance content, this would have been really frustrating otherwise.

  • Might as well do something about trolls putting boxes of "fun" on top of important POI, like anvils, merchants, NPCs, etc.

  • Maybe is a bit off from the topic but I like to add that my automated Tournament were trolled with merge-ing parties with squads several weeks ago.

    The whole story is: my team were registered on a AT, 1 minute left to AT begins when a squad invitation appeared. 3 person of my team misread the alert pop up and they joined to the squad. Result: no tournament for us.

    Maybe is our fault by no-reading the alert but It should be a team decision to avoid this kind of trolling

    trully sorry if I'd already post this on sPvP sub forum, but, I would like that sPvP to be included in the working solution

  • @Benjamin Arnold.3457 said:
    I have some ideas thanks to a player report. I'm going to try to repro this again next time I'm in office.

    I thought you stated in a previous thread that you would fix this in the 'next' hotfix? Did something happen or am I misremembering what you said.

  • takatsu.9416takatsu.9416 Member ✭✭✭

    I think we need confirmation for party to party too. Maybe the democracy thing for kicking, can be applied to confirming a merge. Parties still get trolled

  • @DakotaCoty.5721 said:

    @Benjamin Arnold.3457 said:
    I have some ideas thanks to a player report. I'm going to try to repro this again next time I'm in office.

    I thought you stated in a previous thread that you would fix this in the 'next' hotfix? Did something happen or am I misremembering what you said.

    That was the change for adding a confirmation when merging parties with squads, specifically to stop fractal trolling, which is now live. Other merge types follow different code paths and have different associated design concerns and differences.