The Greatness That Could Be.... — Guild Wars 2 Forums

The Greatness That Could Be....

Adry.7512Adry.7512 Member ✭✭✭
edited July 2, 2019 in PVP

I know this thread will receive massive hate by people who have an extremist state of mind towards this.....but here goes nothing. GW2 has one of the best if not the BEST pve content in any mmorpg. I reallyyyyyy want you to think this through, it’s a big statement but think. When you take the story and PvP out of a game you think is better than GW2....then all you’re left is solely pve gameplay, and now tell me that it’s better than this one. Can you honestly make that statement? In my opinion it has no one to surpass it. Now....why is this game capped at only 13 million players? Because that’s the only epic thing about this game....the pve gameplay, that’s all it has to it’s greatness. The story is good, but not great. The story lacks clarity, the history and lore are STILLLLLL unknown after like 15 years....it’s like reading a veryyyyyyy slow paced book. Now the other big thing an mmorpg has is PvP. Pvp can’t even be stated as good, it’s terrible. The mechanics are amazing, the classes are amazing, but the PvP mode itself is abandoned, neglected, unaltered, with the same options since launch. Every mmorpg at the level of GW2 has dedicated SIGNIFICANT focus on PvP. Meaning they have team battles, 2v2, war politics and alliances, better structured 1v1 options. Now do these games continuously change their PvP? No, they don’t need to, it’s beefy, it’s rich in content. GW2 has the same game mode since launch and a dying, if not already dead, PvP community.

With this being said, I think that a strong shift in focus needs to be put into this game in those TWO factors, lore and PVP. It’s a risky thing to say for you all because the crowed that this game attracted are very pve casual players, but that’s why this game caps at only 13 million, the others are in other games. So I challenge Anet to take the risk and take some time to build on these two aspects. Then this game will def surpass 15 million.

Anet was once praised for being different and for being risk takers. But now I see a company that is scared to be different.

<1

Comments

  • I doubt very much there are 13 million players. Accounts maybe, but some people like me have ten 😛
    I do agree that more lore would be nice, but in all honesty Anet's strong point is NOT PvP. I'd def rather they focused on good story /lore/maps etc.

  • Endless Soul.5178Endless Soul.5178 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I'm always up for more lore.
    PvP, I could not care less about, just keep it out of my PvE.

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  • Adry.7512Adry.7512 Member ✭✭✭

    @Emberfoot.6847 said:
    I doubt very much there are 13 million players. Accounts maybe, but some people like me have ten 😛
    I do agree that more lore would be nice, but in all honesty Anet's strong point is NOT PvP. I'd def rather they focused on good story /lore/maps etc.

    I agree, but PVP is the pillar that holds the playerbase. You can always burnout pve but good PvP is never burnt out because people are always a challenge. PVP is not their strong point because they let it die out, but a game with such great mechanics can always have epic PvP.

    Additionally, the pve aspect of the company already has its assigned devs, timing, and format, something I don’t see in lore development nor PvP. If a few resource can be invested in lore and PvP, it would make a big difference.

    Think about it, pve needs constant updates, PvP requires more maintenance than new stuff. All it takes is ONE good fix in PvP, and the rest is smooth sailing. As for lore, they need more back story and branches, which does take some resources, but lore is crucial.

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Thought i'd disagree with you but actually I don't.

    Atm I have 3 major issues with Gw2 as a game.

    Firstly Living world Season 1.. the fact that season 1 content still hasn't been remade and re-added to the game in some way to bridge the gaping hole in the story between the Personal Story and Season 2 irritates the hell out of me.
    I am absolutely 100% in favour of Anet prioratizing this even if it means delaying new content for the game.. I don't care if I have to wait another year for the next living world season or 2-3 years for the next expansion..
    I hate that Gw2 is an incomplete game and this hole missing due to season 1 has bothered me for years.

    1. Dungeon story instances are not balanced for solo player runs and their mail iontroductions break story continuity with the personal story.. small problem but it bugs the hell out of me.

    2. Major plot points based on completely broken Lich lore.
      What is a Lich in Gw2?
      How does a Lich work?
      Nobody can answer those questions because there have only been 2 major Lich's in the Guildwars story and their backstories specifically around the subject of Lichdom are a complete mystery and inconsistent.
      Khilbron and Joko both have seemingly different forms of Lich magic.. and ascended ring in Gw2 hints that Khilbron had a ring that housed his soul (the typical D&D phylatery concept) despite no recorded lore in either game suggesting he made one, while Joko on the other hand appears to be a Lich through some unknown magic because reasons..
      Fact that a huge story moment is based on that unknown lore left me very sour in the mouth and felt like a huge cop-out on the typically great story telling that Anet has been doing for years.

    There are many areas in the lore that need fleshing out and questions answered and Lich's in Guildwars is one of the biggest areas in the lore that is just a massive blank kitten right now.

    I agree with you that PvP also needs a lot of TLC, more modes added etc and definitely some form of GvG added.

  • Adry.7512Adry.7512 Member ✭✭✭

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    Thought i'd disagree with you but actually I don't.

    Atm I have 3 major issues with Gw2 as a game.

    Firstly Living world Season 1.. the fact that season 1 content still hasn't been remade and re-added to the game in some way to bridge the gaping hole in the story between the Personal Story and Season 2 irritates the hell out of me.
    I am absolutely 100% in favour of Anet prioratizing this even if it means delaying new content for the game.. I don't care if I have to wait another year for the next living world season or 2-3 years for the next expansion..
    I hate that Gw2 is an incomplete game and this hole missing due to season 1 has bothered me for years.

    1. Dungeon story instances are not balanced for solo player runs and their mail iontroductions break story continuity with the personal story.. small problem but it bugs the hell out of me.

    2. Major plot points based on completely broken Lich lore.
      What is a Lich in Gw2?
      How does a Lich work?
      Nobody can answer those questions because there have only been 2 major Lich's in the Guildwars story and their backstories specifically around the subject of Lichdom are a complete mystery and inconsistent.
      Khilbron and Joko both have seemingly different forms of Lich magic.. and ascended ring in Gw2 hints that Khilbron had a ring that housed his soul (the typical D&D phylatery concept) despite no recorded lore in either game suggesting he made one, while Joko on the other hand appears to be a Lich through some unknown magic because reasons..
      Fact that a huge story moment is based on that unknown lore left me very sour in the mouth and felt like a huge cop-out on the typically great story telling that Anet has been doing for years.

    There are many areas in the lore that need fleshing out and questions answered and Lich's in Guildwars is one of the biggest areas in the lore that is just a massive blank kitten right now.

    I agree with you that PvP also needs a lot of TLC, more modes added etc and definitely some form of GvG added.

    Exactly. There is too much mystery behind many if not most main characters. It prevents fans from really sitting down and talking about the game, the story, and the lore.

  • kharmin.7683kharmin.7683 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Adry.7512 said:

    I agree, but PVP is the pillar that holds the playerbase.

    Really? If this were so, then why wouldn't Anet dedicate the bulk of their resources to it?

    I am a very casual player.
    Very.
    Casual.

  • Ashen.2907Ashen.2907 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Adry.7512 said:
    I know this thread will receive massive hate by people who have an extremist state of mind towards this.....but here goes nothing. GW2 has one of the best if not the BEST pve content in any mmorpg. I reallyyyyyy want you to think this through, it’s a big statement but think. When you take the story and PvP out of a game you think is better than GW2....then all you’re left is solely pve gameplay, and now tell me that it’s better than this one. Can you honestly make that statement? In my opinion it has no one to surpass it. Now....why is this game capped at only 13 million players? Because that’s the only epic thing about this game....the pve gameplay, that’s all it has to it’s greatness. The story is good, but not great. The story lacks clarity, the history and lore are STILLLLLL unknown after like 15 years....it’s like reading a veryyyyyyy slow paced book. Now the other big thing an mmorpg has is PvP. Pvp can’t even be stated as good, it’s terrible. The mechanics are amazing, the classes are amazing, but the PvP mode itself is abandoned, neglected, unaltered, with the same options since launch. Every mmorpg at the level of GW2 has dedicated SIGNIFICANT focus on PvP. Meaning they have team battles, 2v2, war politics and alliances, better structured 1v1 options. Now do these games continuously change their PvP? No, they don’t need to, it’s beefy, it’s rich in content. GW2 has the same game mode since launch and a dying, if not already dead, PvP community.

    With this being said, I think that a strong shift in focus needs to be put into this game in those TWO factors, lore and PVP. It’s a risky thing to say for you all because the crowed that this game attracted are very pve casual players, but that’s why this game caps at only 13 million, the others are in other games. So I challenge Anet to take the risk and take some time to build on these two aspects. Then this game will def surpass 15 million.

    Anet was once praised for being different and for being risk takers. But now I see a company that is scared to be different.

    I followed your line of reasoning right up to your last sentence. At that point you lamented ANet's fear of being different by complaining that GW2 is not doing the same things as other games. The contradiction is strong in this one.

  • Adry.7512Adry.7512 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 2, 2019

    @kharmin.7683 said:

    @Adry.7512 said:

    I agree, but PVP is the pillar that holds the playerbase.

    Really? If this were so, then why wouldn't Anet dedicate the bulk of their resources to it?

    It’s a risk. But I want you to ponder on my statement. If pve constantly needs to be developed to keep players online, then what is the backbone to that? The answer is PvP, it’s the right hand of pve. When the players burn out the pve, or when they personally feel like they want to stop pve for a bit, then that person has 3 options. The options are, go outside, play a different game, or PvP. Out of those 3 options, the most beneficial one for Anet is go play PvP. Pvp keeps players entertained for weeks or months until the next content arrives. PVP is a huge money maker, and it attracts many people.

  • Adry.7512Adry.7512 Member ✭✭✭

    I followed your line of reasoning right up to your last sentence. At that point you lamented ANet's fear of being different by complaining that GW2 is not doing the same things as other games. The contradiction is strong in this one.

    I see where you’re drawing that statement from but that’s not what I meant. I mean they are afraid of change, they are afraid to be different in the sense of stepping slightly out of their comfort zone, their safe zone. They were different because they stepped outside the formula, they stepped outside the comfort zone, now that is not the case anymore.

    They managed to revolutionize the genre, even WOW has copied Anet. Why? Because they were the first to make that big risk. Before, everything was a WOW clone or Everquest clone, nothing was really different. They made that difference.

  • zealex.9410zealex.9410 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Iirc game is capped at 11mil atm, and to answer your original question i think there are other games rn doing pve better.

    Those games are experiencing big growth and popularity rn.

  • Adry.7512Adry.7512 Member ✭✭✭

    @Randulf.7614 said:
    Pvp is not a major pillar of any mmo ive ever played. It is an added extra mode and generally appeals to a smaller audience, albeit the mass pvp wvw targets tends to bridge the gap enough, it brings in a much larger percentage of players.

    Pvp does not attract the long term players or the money like pve does in an Mmo

    That is exactly why I said it’s the pillar, or rather the backbone. It’s Not just a side piece, it’s THE side piece.

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Where are people getting these player cap numbers from?

  • Adry.7512Adry.7512 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 2, 2019

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    Where are people getting these player cap numbers from?

    From Anet, but 13 million is an estimate. Last time Anet gave numbers it was 12~

  • VDAC.2137VDAC.2137 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 2, 2019

    I’d be glad to see more PvP options and game modes — would entice me to try it again. :) To my mind, nothing wrong with the maps that exist but as OP stated, needs to be more.

    My favorite part of this game is the PvE, exploring the maps, especially with mounts and gliding, working on collections, etc.

    Lore, well, as long as it doesn’t seem out of place and is actually explained to those of us who haven’t played GW1... I would have been interested in learning more about the Mursaat but feel that was thrown away on some pointless NPC (Livia, ugh). Whenever there is something that seems out of place to me it always ends up being GW1 shoehorn. :disappointed: Joko was fine; I didn’t need to know he had existed in GW1.

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 2, 2019

    @Adry.7512 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    Where are people getting these player cap numbers from?

    From Anet, but 13 million is an estimate. Last time Anet gave numbers it was 12~

    Source/link?

    Edit: If we’re referring to population, can we please refer it as that instead of using ‘cap’? A ‘cap’ and a ‘population’ are two very different things.

  • Danikat.8537Danikat.8537 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I can't speak for anyone else but I've never really enjoyed PvP in any game I've played, especially RPGs, and it's highly unlikely GW2 could do anything to get me to focus on PvP. I'll spent literally thousands of hours on PvE, but even with WvW (which I find far more enjoyable than sPvP) I get bored after a few hours and go do something else, then it might be days or weeks or even months before I go back to it.

    Now maybe I'm the one exception there, but it wouldn't surprise me if there are other people who feel the same and like me they were attracted to this game because PvP is completely separate and optional. Which means if Anet was to shift their focus to primarily making PvP content they actually run the risk of losing players who enjoy the current format. I know you're not suggesting making PvP mandatory, but if it became the main focus and PvE was neglected as a result I'd be far more likely to stop playing in favour of games which make content I enjoy than force myself to play PvP because it's all that's left.

    (Also maybe I'm just old fashioned (I remember when it was amazing that Ultima Online had 10,000 players) but I don't see 13 million accounts as a bad thing. I know that's total accounts created rather than active players, but I doubt any studio would be unhappy with that number. If Anet thought it was in any way disappointing I seriously doubt they'd have announced it. They had no obligation to make it public and it was part of their marketing - you don't typically market your game on how few people have got it...unless you're promoting it exclusively to hipsters.)

  • Everyone has their favorite game mode and will then declare it as the primary thing that holds the game together.

    PVE is fun and clearly the big money maker for Anet - if it wasn't they'd be investing their bigger changes in the other game modes instead.
    WvW is my favorite game mode, but I know its not as popular and receives very little attention as compared to PVE and its fractals, raids and living world releases.
    PvP is a wasteland of lost opportunities. My opinion is that stagnant game modes and the most horrific matchmaking lead to its downfall.

    At this point in this several year old game, I don't expect much of anything outside of PVE (though I am still crossing my fingers for alliances). Its where they make their bank and where most of the players are.

  • Randulf.7614Randulf.7614 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Adry.7512 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    Where are people getting these player cap numbers from?

    From Anet, but 13 million is an estimate. Last time Anet gave numbers it was 12~

    No, ANet said 11 million accounts. Which includes every account ever made and inclusive of those with multiple accounts. I think we can pretty much guarantee the number of active players has never come remotely close to being over 10 million at any point in its life. Frankly I'll be surprised if it is half that despite how strongly populated the game is after 7 years

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  • Adry.7512Adry.7512 Member ✭✭✭

    @Blockhead Magee.3092 said:
    Everyone has their favorite game mode and will then declare it as the primary thing that holds the game together.

    PVE is fun and clearly the big money maker for Anet - if it wasn't they'd be investing their bigger changes in the other game modes instead.
    WvW is my favorite game mode, but I know its not as popular and receives very little attention as compared to PVE and its fractals, raids and living world releases.
    PvP is a wasteland of lost opportunities. My opinion is that stagnant game modes and the most horrific matchmaking lead to its downfall.

    At this point in this several year old game, I don't expect much of anything outside of PVE (though I am still crossing my fingers for alliances). Its where they make their bank and where most of the players are.

    This is on point. It’s a sad reality. The thing is that they can invest more time and effort into these other aspects of the game. Maybe now that their shift has changed to focus mostly on GW2, then Anet as a company can make these changes.

  • Adry.7512Adry.7512 Member ✭✭✭

    @Randulf.7614 said:

    @Adry.7512 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    Where are people getting these player cap numbers from?

    From Anet, but 13 million is an estimate. Last time Anet gave numbers it was 12~

    No, ANet said 11 million accounts. Which includes every account ever made and inclusive of those with multiple accounts. I think we can pretty much guarantee the number of active players has never come remotely close to being over 10 million at any point in its life. Frankly I'll be surprised if it is half that despite how strongly populated the game is after 7 years

    Yea, thanks for the clarification. I too feel the populous is nowhere near that number, but it is what it is. Point is that....it could reach a much higher cap.

  • Adry.7512Adry.7512 Member ✭✭✭

    @tippolit.3591 said:

    @Adry.7512 said:

    @Emberfoot.6847 said:
    I doubt very much there are 13 million players. Accounts maybe, but some people like me have ten 😛
    I do agree that more lore would be nice, but in all honesty Anet's strong point is NOT PvP. I'd def rather they focused on good story /lore/maps etc.

    I agree, but PVP is the pillar that holds the playerbase.

    This thread is replete with comments like this …. opinions put forward as fact.

    No, it’s not.

  • Adry.7512Adry.7512 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 2, 2019

    @Funky.4861 said:
    Why are people using the word 'cap' like it's some sort of barrier? The game isn't capped at all; it might have plateaued, but all games do that. As to the 'pillar of pvp', that made me laugh! Pvp has always been a distracting minigame in gw2. The devs tried to make it into some sort of e-sport a few years ago but it bombed, so now they just feed the pvp'ers enough to keep them hanging in there. GW2 pvp has (imo) unbreachable class/build diversity issues and it's demotivating to play it on anything other than a meta build on a meta class; it's far from welcoming and i really don't see many pvp training guilds advertising or recruiting to generate interest in the mode.

    Right but that’s exactly what we interpret when thinking of capped. Basically it plateaued. The game theoretically doesn’t have a real cap.

  • Leablo.2651Leablo.2651 Member ✭✭✭

    As is, PvP seems to have been an enormous waste of resources and while I respect Anet's decision to keep supporting a mode that obviously does have its audience, I don't think it produces net returns for the game. It's doubly interesting to see them repeat this when they had already gone through the same thing with GW1, which also had great aspirations for PvP that did not pan out. The market is even more challenging now than it was in 2005, because of the prevalence of fully F2P games that cater to a competitive audience. Between LoL and Fortnite it's hard to imagine who is waiting for MMO PvP.

  • Adry.7512Adry.7512 Member ✭✭✭

    @Leablo.2651 said:
    As is, PvP seems to have been an enormous waste of resources and while I respect Anet's decision to keep supporting a mode that obviously does have its audience, I don't think it produces net returns for the game. It's doubly interesting to see them repeat this when they had already gone through the same thing with GW1, which also had great aspirations for PvP that did not pan out. The market is even more challenging now than it was in 2005, because of the prevalence of fully F2P games that cater to a competitive audience. Between LoL and Fortnite it's hard to imagine who is waiting for MMO PvP.

    But the biggest resources would be invested in pve and lore. PvP barely wastes any resources. All it needs is a game mode or two and the rest is maintenance and a new map every now and then. Meaning that the only thing Anet would invest on are a game mode or two, the rest stays the same. It’s a reallyyyyyyy small investment, and it would satisfy players for years to come. People have begged for this, quit the game for this, it’s a big deal. I’ve been around for a while, I’ve seen the ups and the downs. The switch arounds and the risks Anet has faced. Let me tell you, I know this is a small investment, that will have long lasting benefits.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Adry.7512 said:
    With this being said, I think that a strong shift in focus needs to be put into this game in those TWO factors, lore and PVP. It’s a risky thing to say for you all because the crowed that this game attracted are very pve casual players, but that’s why this game caps at only 13 million, the others are in other games.

    I think you overestimate the amount of players that like PVP in MMORPGs. Korean open pvp games don't do very well anymore, while even in the juggernaut WoW the PVP servers are far less than the PVE ones, and at the same time they are marked as underpopulated more often. If no MMORPG had any form of PVP anymore, I doubt it would make much of a difference to the global player numbers.

  • Adry.7512Adry.7512 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 2, 2019

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Adry.7512 said:
    With this being said, I think that a strong shift in focus needs to be put into this game in those TWO factors, lore and PVP. It’s a risky thing to say for you all because the crowed that this game attracted are very pve casual players, but that’s why this game caps at only 13 million, the others are in other games.

    I think you overestimate the amount of players that like PVP in MMORPGs. Korean open pvp games don't do very well anymore, while even in the juggernaut WoW the PVP servers are far less than the PVE ones, and at the same time they are marked as underpopulated more often. If no MMORPG had any form of PVP anymore, I doubt it would make much of a difference to the global player numbers.

    That’s the point of mmorpgs. I meant to challenge Anet to add more focus on lore and PvP, not to change their game to a PvP game. The game will be the same, but the problem that we face is as old as the inception of GW2. There is no justice to the PvP mode of the game. It’s abandoned and neglected. Pve is and always will be the main selling point, but the other game modes can and should be better.

  • Adry.7512Adry.7512 Member ✭✭✭

    @Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:

    @zealex.9410 said:
    Iirc game is capped at 11mil atm

    The game has no cap on the number of accounts. In September of 2017, ANet stated that there were 11 million accounts; that was nearly two years ago.

    With massive caveats, people have estimated the active population as 1.5-3 million players. Those massive caveats include things like:

    • "Active" in this context means "logs on once a month", i.e. it's really "interested account holders", rather than what us forumites think of as "people with active gameplay"
    • The estimates are based on a combination of rules of thumb (i.e. barely educated guesses) and extrapolations from gross income reports (since there's no sub, that's trick).

    There are also various attempts to estimate the fraction of players who engage in the game's niche content, which include WvW, PvP, Raids, and Fractals. Of those, I'm personally only confident in the raid estimates of ~15% of the playing population.


    The OP claims that PvP is a "major pillar" of MMOs. The problem is that "major" and "pillar" are both undefined. Does the OP use "pillar" to mean "something that draws fresh blood into a game" or do they mean "a cornerstone of the population" or do they mean "a critical element of how people engage in the game"? I don't think there's any reasonable interpretation in which the last two are correct.

    So I'll interpret the claim as "PvP is an important tool in drawing people to MMOs." I don't think the evidence supports that either, as so many people in the GW2 universe are so opposed to PvP that they won't entertain any amount of it in any part of the game that isn't specifically labeled so.

    It might be more reasonable to say that PvP is one of the few parts of MMOs that get lots of attention, because matches are more accessible to people who don't play regularly: they are short, potentially exciting, and competition draws spectators in ways that cooperation can never dream of.

    That was certainly true of GW2 PvP at launch, which was why ANet used their advertising budget to pay for contests, the so-called eSports era.

    It doesn't seem at all to be true now. Streamed matches do get attention, just not that much. It's an old game; newer ones and dedicated PvP games do it better. So aside from niche contests, people outside the GW2 community aren't that interested.


    None of that means that ANet spends enough attention on PvP for the amount of players that do engage in it. It just means that the OP's words will probably have next to no impact on Anet.

    Sad but true....

  • VDAC.2137VDAC.2137 Member ✭✭✭

    @Adry.7512 said:
    I agree, but PVP is the pillar that holds the playerbase. You can always burnout pve but good PvP is never burnt out because people are always a challenge. PVP is not their strong point because they let it die out, but a game with such great mechanics can always have epic PvP.

    Additionally, the pve aspect of the company already has its assigned devs, timing, and format, something I don’t see in lore development nor PvP. If a few resource can be invested in lore and PvP, it would make a big difference.

    Think about it, pve needs constant updates, PvP requires more maintenance than new stuff. All it takes is ONE good fix in PvP, and the rest is smooth sailing. As for lore, they need more back story and branches, which does take some resources, but lore is crucial.

    “The pillar that holds the player base”??? That’s quite a statement. PvP had nothing to do with why I chose this MMO over others (except in the sense that there is less of it in open world — more players means events done easier and faster but no one “steals” my loot nor resource nodes). I’m sure there are people who play MMORPGs that have a great interest in PvP — I’ve known several — but it is not everyone. I would appreciate an expansion of the types of PvP available in GW2 but it is not the priority to me and would be at most a fun addition to what keeps me interested and invested in the game, which is the PvE and open world content.

  • zealex.9410zealex.9410 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 2, 2019

    @Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:

    @zealex.9410 said:
    Iirc game is capped at 11mil atm

    The game has no cap on the number of accounts. In September of 2017, ANet stated that there were 11 million accounts; that was nearly two years ago.

    With massive caveats, people have estimated the active population as 1.5-3 million players. Those massive caveats include things like:

    • "Active" in this context means "logs on once a month", i.e. it's really "interested account holders", rather than what us forumites think of as "people with active gameplay"
    • The estimates are based on a combination of rules of thumb (i.e. barely educated guesses) and extrapolations from gross income reports (since there's no sub, that's trick).

    There are also various attempts to estimate the fraction of players who engage in the game's niche content, which include WvW, PvP, Raids, and Fractals. Of those, I'm personally only confident in the raid estimates of ~15% of the playing population.


    The OP claims that PvP is a "major pillar" of MMOs. The problem is that "major" and "pillar" are both undefined. Does the OP use "pillar" to mean "something that draws fresh blood into a game" or do they mean "a cornerstone of the population" or do they mean "a critical element of how people engage in the game"? I don't think there's any reasonable interpretation in which the last two are correct.

    So I'll interpret the claim as "PvP is an important tool in drawing people to MMOs." I don't think the evidence supports that either, as so many people in the GW2 universe are so opposed to PvP that they won't entertain any amount of it in any part of the game that isn't specifically labeled so.

    It might be more reasonable to say that PvP is one of the few parts of MMOs that get lots of attention, because matches are more accessible to people who don't play regularly: they are short, potentially exciting, and competition draws spectators in ways that cooperation can never dream of.

    That was certainly true of GW2 PvP at launch, which was why ANet used their advertising budget to pay for contests, the so-called eSports era.

    It doesn't seem at all to be true now. Streamed matches do get attention, just not that much. It's an old game; newer ones and dedicated PvP games do it better. So aside from niche contests, people outside the GW2 community aren't that interested.


    None of that means that ANet spends enough attention on PvP for the amount of players that do engage in it. It just means that the OP's words will probably have next to no impact on ANet.

    They also used the 11mil mark more recently for their newer row of promotions (which we saw after the layoffs)

    Edit around 3 months ago. Which suggest no noteworthy mark has been achieved past 11mil which is why i referenced it.

  • Aodlop.1907Aodlop.1907 Member ✭✭✭

    Every mmorpg at the level of GW2 has dedicated SIGNIFICANT focus on PvP

    Yeah, WoW has dedicated SIGNIFICANT efforts into destroying PvP after mists of pandaria, removing waves of spells and complex mechanics every new expansion, further dumbing down every single spec in the game.

  • AliamRationem.5172AliamRationem.5172 Member ✭✭✭✭

    GW2 probably has the best open world PvE of any MMO I've tried, but its instanced PvE (which is a major draw for many MMO players) is pretty awful and it's entirely due to the decision to go without tanks and healers. The result of this choice is that every role feels like a DPS/support role, which doesn't feel new or innovative. It feels much the same as trinity gameplay, but with two distinct roles missing and the group dynamic simplified. I applaud GW2 for daring to be different, but I don't think it worked out in this case.

    PvP/WvW are definitely starving from a lack of support. There's no need to elaborate. It's painfully obvious to everyone who plays this game. These game modes are simply not supported by anything close to sufficient development resources.

    So, what do we have in GW2? We have top notch open world PvE with some really great maps, an excellent mount system, and other cool masteries. We have a story that, while far from perfect, does make each player a part of what's going on in the world (something many MMOs really don't do a very good job of!). And, unfortunately, we have that paired with pretty weak raid/dungeon content and virtually unsupported PvP/RvR. Does anyone else sense a missed opportunity here? GW2 could be so much more than it is. It's a kitten shame.

  • Xstein.2187Xstein.2187 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 2, 2019

    @Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:
    So I'll interpret the claim as "PvP is an important tool in drawing people to MMOs." I don't think the evidence supports that either, as so many people in the GW2 universe are so opposed to PvP that they won't entertain any amount of it in any part of the game that isn't specifically labeled so.

    You can't compare something to itself though.
    That is like claiming an Italian restaurant shouldn't work on improving their pasta since most people come there for the pizza. This is especially true if people are opposed to the pasta in that restaurant to begin with BECAUSE it is bad and has room for improvement.

    However, when you instead look at other Italian restaurants, you see that the pasta can both be improved and attract more customers.
    Most people forget that gw2 PvE wan't in a very good state directly after the launch of HoT. However, it greatly improved because they but some time into it.

    How confident are you that the Italian restaurant can't attract more customers if it improves its pasta as well?

  • @zealex.9410 said:
    They also used the 11mil mark more recently for their newer row of promotions (which we saw after the layoffs)

    Edit around 3 months ago. Which suggest no noteworthy mark has been achieved past 11mil which is why i referenced it.

    You actually wrote, " Iirc game is capped at 11mil atm" which implies that they haven't sold any accounts in two years, which we know can't be true: at the very least, they gave away accounts via marketing campaigns and people start F2P accounts all the time.

    You're correct that the recent poster campaign uses the 11 million number. According to the publicity manager, this campaign took a year to organize, so it's possible they were using numbers that were 15 months old (although I presume that would be something that they could have changed at the last minute, maybe I'm wrong).

    We don't know if the 11 million figure includes China or not (maybe the Infographic of 2017 did, but the posters did not? seems unlikely).

    So all we can really say is that there are at least 11 million accounts. And that's a fairly useless number for those of us playing today, since we care more about how many are playing the game alongside us, rather than how many started an account.

    "Face the facts. Then act on them. It's ...the only doctrine I have to offer you, & it's harder than you'd think, because I swear humans seem hardwired to do anything but. Face the facts. Don't pray, don't wish, ...FACE THE FACTS. THEN act." — Quellcrist Falconer

  • Swagger.1459Swagger.1459 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 2, 2019

    @Adry.7512 said:
    I know this thread will receive massive hate by people who have an extremist state of mind towards this.....but here goes nothing. GW2 has one of the best if not the BEST pve content in any mmorpg. I reallyyyyyy want you to think this through, it’s a big statement but think. When you take the story and PvP out of a game you think is better than GW2....then all you’re left is solely pve gameplay, and now tell me that it’s better than this one. Can you honestly make that statement? In my opinion it has no one to surpass it. Now....why is this game capped at only 13 million players? Because that’s the only epic thing about this game....the pve gameplay, that’s all it has to it’s greatness. The story is good, but not great. The story lacks clarity, the history and lore are STILLLLLL unknown after like 15 years....it’s like reading a veryyyyyyy slow paced book. Now the other big thing an mmorpg has is PvP. Pvp can’t even be stated as good, it’s terrible. The mechanics are amazing, the classes are amazing, but the PvP mode itself is abandoned, neglected, unaltered, with the same options since launch. Every mmorpg at the level of GW2 has dedicated SIGNIFICANT focus on PvP. Meaning they have team battles, 2v2, war politics and alliances, better structured 1v1 options. Now do these games continuously change their PvP? No, they don’t need to, it’s beefy, it’s rich in content. GW2 has the same game mode since launch and a dying, if not already dead, PvP community.

    With this being said, I think that a strong shift in focus needs to be put into this game in those TWO factors, lore and PVP. It’s a risky thing to say for you all because the crowed that this game attracted are very pve casual players, but that’s why this game caps at only 13 million, the others are in other games. So I challenge Anet to take the risk and take some time to build on these two aspects. Then this game will def surpass 15 million.

    Anet was once praised for being different and for being risk takers. But now I see a company that is scared to be different.

    First, there aren't 13,000,000 active players playing GW2. Units sold vs average amount of active players is vastly different, and those are vastly different numbers in total... Second, more focus on pvp development would kill off gw2 faster than anything else. Anet developed professions and combat with pvp in mind, and the gaming world communities aren't interested in the pvp side of gw2, hence no esports. You are not getting a more pvp focused game no matter how much you beg.

    Are read...

    @Just a flesh wound.3589 said:
    No, the core game philosophy is cooperative PvE. Open world PvP would change it to something I did not pay for and do not wish to pay for. In addition, ANet has already weighed in on this topic.

    [Open world PvP]
    The overall design for Guild Wars 2 does not support fully open world PvP and it would take a prohibitive amount of work to even make it possible. World versus world is our version of open world PvP, and while it isn’t ‘true’ open world PvP for more PvP purists, it does contain many of the elements that make world PvP so exciting. Hopefully it will mostly satisfy people that want open world PvP. — Mike Ferguson

  • @Xstein.2187 said:

    @Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:
    So I'll interpret the claim as "PvP is an important tool in drawing people to MMOs." I don't think the evidence supports that either, as so many people in the GW2 universe are so opposed to PvP that they won't entertain any amount of it in any part of the game that isn't specifically labeled so.

    You can't compare something to itself though.

    I didn't compare something to itself. The part you quoted only says that I don't think there's evidence that PvP is an important tool in drawing people to the game, at least not in 2019.

    That is like claiming an Italian restaurant shouldn't work on improving their pasta since most people come there for the pizza. This is especially true if people are opposed to the pasta in that restaurant to begin with BECAUSE it is bad and has room for improvement.

    Your claim is that the reason PvP doesn't draw people is because it's bad. There's absolutely no evidence of that. It might be true; we'd have no way to know that.

    How confident are you that the Italian restaurant can't attract more customers if it improves its pasta as well?

    I'm pretty confident that ANet doesn't think it's important and I think their instincts are better than the community's, because their business depends on getting stuff like that right. They could be very wrong, of course; we'd have no way of knowing.

    It's not just a matter of "improving pasta." Not everyone agrees with what's wrong or what it would take to fix it.

    To take your analogy further: how confident are you that all your restaurant needs to do improve the pasta? Or the menu? Or the chef? And how much is that going to cost? And how much more will the restaurant earn as a result? Would it be better to shut it down and reopen under a different name? Refurbish the kitchen? Do new decor? Change the wine list?

    In any case, my point is it's not a very convincing case. PvP would definitely benefit from increased attention. However, we have no way of knowing whether that increased attention would translate into something for the community at large. What evidence we have suggests that it wouldn't matter enough to make it worth ANet's time. Those who want ANet to take a second look probably need to do more than simply assert that it would work.

    "Face the facts. Then act on them. It's ...the only doctrine I have to offer you, & it's harder than you'd think, because I swear humans seem hardwired to do anything but. Face the facts. Don't pray, don't wish, ...FACE THE FACTS. THEN act." — Quellcrist Falconer

  • kharmin.7683kharmin.7683 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:

    Your claim is that the reason PvP doesn't draw people is because it's bad. There's absolutely no evidence of that. It might be true; we'd have no way to know that.

    But we do have posters in this thread that might shine a light on why PvP has difficulty in drawing players.

    I am a very casual player.
    Very.
    Casual.

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Xstein.2187 said:

    @Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:
    So I'll interpret the claim as "PvP is an important tool in drawing people to MMOs." I don't think the evidence supports that either, as so many people in the GW2 universe are so opposed to PvP that they won't entertain any amount of it in any part of the game that isn't specifically labeled so.

    You can't compare something to itself though.
    That is like claiming an Italian restaurant shouldn't work on improving their pasta since most people come there for the pizza. This is especially true if people are opposed to the pasta in that restaurant to begin with BECAUSE it is bad and has room for improvement.

    However, when you instead look at other Italian restaurants, you see that the pasta can both be improved and attract more customers.
    Most people forget that gw2 PvE wan't in a very good state directly after the launch of HoT. However, it greatly improved because they but some time into it.

    How confident are you that the Italian restaurant can't attract more customers if it improves its pasta as well?

    The bolded is your opinion, not a fact.

  • Xstein.2187Xstein.2187 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 2, 2019

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Xstein.2187 said:

    @Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:
    So I'll interpret the claim as "PvP is an important tool in drawing people to MMOs." I don't think the evidence supports that either, as so many people in the GW2 universe are so opposed to PvP that they won't entertain any amount of it in any part of the game that isn't specifically labeled so.

    You can't compare something to itself though.
    That is like claiming an Italian restaurant shouldn't work on improving their pasta since most people come there for the pizza. This is especially true if people are opposed to the pasta in that restaurant to begin with BECAUSE it is bad and has room for improvement.

    However, when you instead look at other Italian restaurants, you see that the pasta can both be improved and attract more customers.
    Most people forget that gw2 PvE wan't in a very good state directly after the launch of HoT. However, it greatly improved because they but some time into it.

    How confident are you that the Italian restaurant can't attract more customers if it improves its pasta as well?

    The bolded is your opinion, not a fact.

    Numbers were dropping at this point in time. It is not a coincidence that they did a big overhaul.
    This is what I am basing 'not in a very good state' on.
    Arguing against that is just as bad, if not worse, than arguing that PvP is in a good state right now.
    We can always compare these game types retrospectively and the facts are that before the LARGE overhaul, HoT got a lot nasty complaints and reviews.

    Personally, I enjoyed HoT at launch.

  • @kharmin.7683 said:

    @Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:

    Your claim is that the reason PvP doesn't draw people is because it's bad. There's absolutely no evidence of that. It might be true; we'd have no way to know that.

    But we do have posters in this thread that might shine a light on why PvP has difficulty in drawing players.

    The initial comments are:

    • Never been a fan of cap point style PvP.
    • Because its like playing Quake 3: Team Arena with worse presentation and everyone has permanent Quad damage.
    • Honestly, I'm just total kitten when it comes to fight against real players, I'm also super stressed easily.
    • I am just not so fond of killing other players in any game.
    • balance is horrendous and creative play and counter play exists to such a small degree compared to other competitive games
    • Not enough balance patches, not enough communication with the comunity
    • The lousy match-up (i.e., player skill) system that causes imbalance in matches.
    • The incredible toxicity and lack of proper teamplay.
    • I don't have a desire to learn my class enough to be good at it
    • Being below rank 20 I had to que unranked ... for 30 minutes
    • The aggressivity and level of competitivity of the PvPers shocked me

    That's a whole lot of things more complicated than "because it's bad."

    Again, I'm not saying that ANet devotes sufficient time to the game mode. I'm certainly not saying it's in great shape. I'm saying it's not clear that devoting more time would be sufficient to turn it into a draw for the game generally.

    "Face the facts. Then act on them. It's ...the only doctrine I have to offer you, & it's harder than you'd think, because I swear humans seem hardwired to do anything but. Face the facts. Don't pray, don't wish, ...FACE THE FACTS. THEN act." — Quellcrist Falconer

  • Xstein.2187Xstein.2187 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 2, 2019

    @Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:

    @Xstein.2187 said:

    @Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:
    So I'll interpret the claim as "PvP is an important tool in drawing people to MMOs." I don't think the evidence supports that either, as so many people in the GW2 universe are so opposed to PvP that they won't entertain any amount of it in any part of the game that isn't specifically labeled so.

    You can't compare something to itself though.

    I didn't compare something to itself. The part you quoted only says that I don't think there's evidence that PvP is an important tool in drawing people to the game, at least not in 2019.

    That is like claiming an Italian restaurant shouldn't work on improving their pasta since most people come there for the pizza. This is especially true if people are opposed to the pasta in that restaurant to begin with BECAUSE it is bad and has room for improvement.

    Your claim is that the reason PvP doesn't draw people is because it's bad. There's absolutely no evidence of that. It might be true; we'd have no way to know that.

    How confident are you that the Italian restaurant can't attract more customers if it improves its pasta as well?

    I'm pretty confident that ANet doesn't think it's important and I think their instincts are better than the community's, because their business depends on getting stuff like that right. They could be very wrong, of course; we'd have no way of knowing.

    It's not just a matter of "improving pasta." Not everyone agrees with what's wrong or what it would take to fix it.

    To take your analogy further: how confident are you that all your restaurant needs to do improve the pasta? Or the menu? Or the chef? And how much is that going to cost? And how much more will the restaurant earn as a result? Would it be better to shut it down and reopen under a different name? Refurbish the kitchen? Do new decor? Change the wine list?

    In any case, my point is it's not a very convincing case. PvP would definitely benefit from increased attention. However, we have no way of knowing whether that increased attention would translate into something for the community at large. What evidence we have suggests that it wouldn't matter enough to make it worth ANet's time. Those who want ANet to take a second look probably need to do more than simply assert that it would work.

    There is also no evidence for your claim that it is not worth putting time into it because people won't like it, even if it does improve.
    By saying you were comparing it to itself, I meant you were just using 'most people being apposed to PvP' right now as a reason why people would never play PvP EVER when you have no evidence for this.

    I agree with mostly everything you said in your second post. I just didn't, and still don't agree, with the reasoning of the portion I quoted earlier.
    We don't know if it would work and we don't know if it won't work.
    I agree with this. However, earlier you appeared to state the community as a factual evidence for the latter, when that is not the case.

    p.s. Why do you think PvP doesn't draw people in then if you think it is not because it is bad/not as enjoyable as it could be? What other reason could there be? Advertising?
    It is not that potential isn't there. If other games can be successful at PvP, then what is stoping gw2? Populations are not static.

  • Cerioth.7062Cerioth.7062 Member ✭✭✭

    See, I find the PVP of this game more enjoyable than in any other MMO. Sure, it could use improvements, but still.

  • zealex.9410zealex.9410 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 2, 2019

    @Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:

    @zealex.9410 said:
    They also used the 11mil mark more recently for their newer row of promotions (which we saw after the layoffs)

    Edit around 3 months ago. Which suggest no noteworthy mark has been achieved past 11mil which is why i referenced it.

    You actually wrote, " Iirc game is capped at 11mil atm" which implies that they haven't sold any accounts in two years, which we know can't be true: at the very least, they gave away accounts via marketing campaigns and people start F2P accounts all the time.

    You're correct that the recent poster campaign uses the 11 million number. According to the publicity manager, this campaign took a year to organize, so it's possible they were using numbers that were 15 months old (although I presume that would be something that they could have changed at the last minute, maybe I'm wrong).

    We don't know if the 11 million figure includes China or not (maybe the Infographic of 2017 did, but the posters did not? seems unlikely).

    So all we can really say is that there are at least 11 million accounts. And that's a fairly useless number for those of us playing today, since we care more about how many are playing the game alongside us, rather than how many started an account.

    Allow to press x to doubt the 11mil mark being 15 months old, id assume out of all bits of work that goes to marketing the number of players would the most important and easiest for te company to get around finding with their own data.

    I very much doubt they used 15 months old data to advertise the game now while every other mmo poat big milestones the moment they get them or an expansion is out (meaning they are rather fresh).

    I dont really find anets marketing to be that strong but im sure they wouldnt make less of their game's accomplishments if they are advertising it. For china it seems like a no brainer to include, theres no negative in doing so anyways.

  • Drakz.7051Drakz.7051 Member ✭✭

    GW 2 started great and had alot of potential but failed to follow through. The best that can be hoped for now is that they can finish whatever story they are trying to tell before they pack it in.

  • AliamRationem.5172AliamRationem.5172 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:
    In any case, my point is it's not a very convincing case. PvP would definitely benefit from increased attention. However, we have no way of knowing whether that increased attention would translate into something for the community at large. What evidence we have suggests that it wouldn't matter enough to make it worth ANet's time. Those who want ANet to take a second look probably need to do more than simply assert that it would work.

    I'm not going to argue that investing resources into PvP would result in a magical transformation of GW2 into the game everyone wants to play. But I think we're asking the wrong questions here. We're looking at PvP as if it were a separate game entirely. In other words, we're asking: How many players care only about PvP? Not many! So why should we devote resources to it?

    That's missing the bigger picture. In a market full of MMOs that offer everything, does GW2 want the dubious distinction of being the only MMO that more or less offers only open world and story content releases? That seems to be the direction we're headed. Considering that GW2 is arguably the best story/open world MMO available and clearly devotes more resources to and generally does a better job with this sort of content, it might be easy to make a case for doing exactly that.

    The problem with this logic, in my opinion, is that I don't think most players play only one game mode even if the majority of GW2 players spend most of their time in open world/story content. Assuming that's true, it might not matter that you do open world/story so well if you don't support your other game modes. Even if they aren't as popular, players who primarily enjoy GW2 open world content might still wish to play PvP, WvW, raids/fractals. If you don't support them, does it not seem likely that such players will inevitably look for another game that does? There are a lot of other options out there that offer more, you know.

    That is certainly the case for me right now. I absolutely loved the HoT expansion open world content (PoF too, but not as much as those incredible jungle maps!) and I've enjoyed the living story seasons 3 and 4 and associated maps quite a lot. But I also ranked platinum playing a season of PvP and spent several months roaming in WvW as well as finding time to get into T4 fractals and even some challenge modes while dabbling a little bit in raids besides (I'd be more into fractals/raids if there were tanking and healing classes to play!).

    Yeah, open world/story seems to be what GW2 does best and I love that about it. But despite that, I'm not currently playing GW2. Why? Because I'm getting tired of only 1 game mode in PvP, no improvements to WvW (how many years do you want me to wait for alliances??), boring fractal/raid content, and no expansion on the horizon. Is it strictly a good investment to put resources into these things given how few players participate in them? Perhaps not. But if you don't, you will lose even players who fully recognize and appreciate the things GW2 does so well.

    That's the bigger picture from my perspective.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    Where are people getting these player cap numbers from?

    The same place they always get them ... pulling out of their behinds.

    The main question here is what makes Anet money and from who. It's sure as hell not PVP players. Anet knows where the money is at and I think based on how we have seen LS2, PoF and LS3 develop, it's not hard to speculate either.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

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