The growing ugliness of Guild Wars. — Guild Wars 2 Forums

The growing ugliness of Guild Wars.

Loesh.4697Loesh.4697 Member ✭✭✭

Does anyone else feel like after this last season, perhaps more then ever, there's less reason to root for the people of Tyria and our divided ideologies are as stark as they have ever been?

Not that the world of Guild Wars was ever nice and pretty, but this expansion really put it in perspective of how cripplingly flawed and self destructive the Tyrian cultures are. Yes we ultimately came together to fight, and defeat, Kralk but it seems like something of a hollow victory the more I look back on it. That the threats were not the dragons, but rather the mortal races of Tyria itself, now I don't think this is a bad thing, as frankly I think that's a infinitely more interesting plot point then the Dragons themselves, but I am curious as to how it will be handled in the future. Guild Wars has never shied away from the ugliness of it's nations, whether that be Lions Arch tolerating the barbaric Centaur tribes for profit or the frankly Fascist society of the Charr, the crippling wealth inequality of humanity or the anachro-capitalist nightmare of the Asura where their failures often wind up being their leaders, or the Norn basically having a lawless wild west where everyone is out for themselves.

But with NPCs like Shaman Ninukab critiquing each society he's approached by, the flaws of human faith through Balthazar, the ravenous destructive experimentation of the Inquest, and the Olmakhan just putting Charr society on blast in general, leads me to believe that around now is where there will be some kind of reckoning to tie up plot points from the the core game. In particular between Rytlocks Shortstory and the Olmakhan it feels like the Charr are up next to bat after the Sylvari got hit in HoT and humans were in PoF.

What do you all think?

Comments

  • Aaron Ansari.1604Aaron Ansari.1604 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 7, 2019

    @Loesh.4697 said:
    Does anyone else feel like after this last season, perhaps more then ever, there's less reason to root for the people of Tyria and our divided ideologies are as stark as they have ever been?

    Relative to other seasons, I think they actually deliberately moved away from internal discord this time. Scarlet's harnessing of the hostile factions, the jarring reveal of the sylvari origins, the brief Krytan civil war... S4 just gave us Joko, and ideologically, the game never treated his position remotely seriously. Once he was out of the picture, even his remaining loyalists fell in line to take on the bigger fish. Episodes 4-6 were representatives from all over the world coming together in one comfortably featureless mass to face Kralkatorrik.

    Not that the world of Guild Wars was ever nice and pretty, but this expansion really put it in perspective of how cripplingly flawed and self destructive the Tyrian cultures are. Yes we ultimately came together to fight, and defeat, Kralk but it seems like something of a hollow victory the more I look back on it. That the threats were not the dragons, but rather the mortal races of Tyria itself, now I don't think this is a bad thing, as frankly I think that's a infinitely more interesting plot point then the Dragons themselves, but I am curious as to how it will be handled in the future. Guild Wars has never shied away from the ugliness of it's nations, whether that be Lions Arch tolerating the barbaric Centaur tribes for profit or the frankly Fascist society of the Charr, the crippling wealth inequality of humanity or the anachro-capitalist nightmare of the Asura where their failures often wind up being their leaders, or the Norn basically having a lawless wild west where everyone is out for themselves.

    Again, with the exception of Joko, who was portrayed as a foreign outsider, I haven't felt threatened by any force internal to one of our playable races since Caudecus in 2017. I agree that ANet's always been willing to show their cultures as flawed, and I applaud them for that, but what they haven't done since... yeesh, Season 1, is let those flaws manifest as obstacles or impediments for longer than an episode (or two, back when both would be out in the same month). During the Pact days, the Commander was always able to get everyone to play nice with a few dialogue boxes, and from HoT onward we've usually left even that much to others, not engaging with the larger cultures at all. Unless ANet's tired of that approach, I don't see any space for social injustice or governmental incompetence to play a central role. We don't have the supporting cast to explore those in any meaningful way, and the few times they've tried, with class frictions between Kasmeer and Marjory, have gone to show just how unwilling they've been to commit.

    But with NPCs like Shaman Ninukab critiquing each society he's approached by, the flaws of human faith through Balthazar, the ravenous destructive experimentation of the Inquest, and the Olmakhan just putting Charr society on blast in general, leads me to believe that around now is where there will be some kind of reckoning to tie up plot points from the the core game. In particular between Rytlocks Shortstory and the Olmakhan it feels like the Charr are up next to bat after the Sylvari got hit in HoT and humans were in PoF.

    What do you all think?

    Hate to be a wet blanket, but in short, I think that as long as these topics are the domain of NPCs tucked off the golden path where they can be easily missed, nothing will come of it. I do agree that internal conflict with the charr is as likely a next step as any, but thus far they haven't done the groundwork to make it anything more than the internal conflict with the humans was in S3- one clearly 'bad' side that we only engage with our weapons, and no changes for our allies once the villain is inevitably vanquished.

    I would like to see them go that route. It has potential pitfalls, but no more than any other direction. Looking at the broad arc of GW2's storytelling, I just believe it flies in the face of the direction they've been bending towards, the inward, personal storylines they've wanted to tell and the solutions that always come down to (properly timed and directed) application of force.

    R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.

  • Svennis.3852Svennis.3852 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 7, 2019

    The nature of S4’s end really doesn’t lend well to speculating next steps imo. There’s an invariable amount of threads they could pick up since effectively closing the Kralk and Aurene plot.

    Immediate ideas that jump out to me would be checking back in on racial/regional politics in the aftermath of Kralk - particularly Elona’s likely fragile and fractured state post-Joko. I find it hard to believe they want to dwell in the desert any longer though, but that seems like it’d be the most “present” story they could pick up.

    S5 could be anywhere from Lyssa to DSD to Charr civil conflict. There was zero set up for the next story arc I feel, so it’s anyone’a guess.

    As for what I’d like? Let’s dive into the politics of the Charr, Asura, and Norn. Let’s see how their societies are doing. Let’s tie in Malyck somehow, and also get a real update on Zojja (even if her plot relevance is 0 with Kralk dead). Let us into the Dominion of Winds, PLEASE!

  • Loesh.4697Loesh.4697 Member ✭✭✭

    That is actually a pretty good point regarding the supporting cast, it's difficult for Anet to really fixate in something like that and go anywhere meaningful with it at times. I feel like the story arc with Kasmeer over PoF is a pretty good example of touching on the topic of faith briefly, but not really doing anything with it. In my head I was thinking that perhaps Rox and Rytlock with their new story developments would be the catalyst for a massive change in Charr society, but only Rox has really had the build up to do something properly with that. Rytlock is too two dimensional on the subject with his grievances only given any meaningful detail in a short story, and even on Roxs end while she explores the Olmakhan and how they are ehr new home, it's not like she's critiquing Charr society either. Their lore does, but beyond that the actual reaction of Legionnaires and Olmakhan to each other has had little development beyond a NPC Legionnaire in Thunderhead Peak saying he wanted to try an Olmakhan fasting diet as an excuse to eat a ton of food at once before he dies.

  • Westenev.5289Westenev.5289 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 8, 2019

    If anything, I'd say the Pact have been nothing but admirable. In episode 3, they are deployed rushed and undersupplied... yet they take the effort to help nearby villages rather than plunder them. Hang around the pact camp in episode 4, and try saying none of those characters deserve to go home based on their dialogue.

  • ugrakarma.9416ugrakarma.9416 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 9, 2019

    This is pretty common in fantasy genres, Tyria is becoming more like the world of "Conan the Barbarian", who knows, an inherent condition of the genre, what sense would it make to have a hero in a world where law and order are rules? I think Tyria is one of the least chaotic when compared to Conan, Neverwinter, Warcraft, etc. For, supposedly, we have the races and their leaders and still "obey" them as a kind of "order of the law" of the world. In this sense,Elona enters as an escapegoat: since Tyria has an "order" (the races and their leaders), then Elona a "outside world" has room to be still more chaotic . .. In another title like Warcraft, is very rare a kingdom maintain the order beyond some wall entreched "capital city". In this respect I find the Gw2 team much more creative. In the neverwinter the world is summed up to some "capital cities" or settlements and out of them only chaos, forests and strange creatures. In Gw2 we have networks of commercial / military outposts, villages, roads, a world far more realistic, than random creatures loose in a "chaotic" space for any reason. Another criterion that GW2 stands out is that the levels of "desolation" of the zones are better represented: the closer to a elder dragon a more desolate its becomes.

    "It's a testament to the folly of the humans and their gods. They say Arah was sacred, but all I see is one big dragon nest."(Rytlock Brimstone)

  • ugrakarma.9416ugrakarma.9416 Member ✭✭✭✭

    if anyone was curios, i had a topic about unfinished mysteries/arcs https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/76706/post-episode-5-pending-arcs-rumours-heavy-spoilers

    "It's a testament to the folly of the humans and their gods. They say Arah was sacred, but all I see is one big dragon nest."(Rytlock Brimstone)

  • Sovereign.1093Sovereign.1093 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Loesh.4697 said:
    Does anyone else feel like after this last season, perhaps more then ever, there's less reason to root for the people of Tyria and our divided ideologies are as stark as they have ever been?

    Not that the world of Guild Wars was ever nice and pretty, but this expansion really put it in perspective of how cripplingly flawed and self destructive the Tyrian cultures are. Yes we ultimately came together to fight, and defeat, Kralk but it seems like something of a hollow victory the more I look back on it. That the threats were not the dragons, but rather the mortal races of Tyria itself, now I don't think this is a bad thing, as frankly I think that's a infinitely more interesting plot point then the Dragons themselves, but I am curious as to how it will be handled in the future. Guild Wars has never shied away from the ugliness of it's nations, whether that be Lions Arch tolerating the barbaric Centaur tribes for profit or the frankly Fascist society of the Charr, the crippling wealth inequality of humanity or the anachro-capitalist nightmare of the Asura where their failures often wind up being their leaders, or the Norn basically having a lawless wild west where everyone is out for themselves.

    But with NPCs like Shaman Ninukab critiquing each society he's approached by, the flaws of human faith through Balthazar, the ravenous destructive experimentation of the Inquest, and the Olmakhan just putting Charr society on blast in general, leads me to believe that around now is where there will be some kind of reckoning to tie up plot points from the the core game. In particular between Rytlocks Shortstory and the Olmakhan it feels like the Charr are up next to bat after the Sylvari got hit in HoT and humans were in PoF.

    What do you all think?

    well they do change story writers; so it would jumble up. hehe

    but for me, i want to know more about the lore of each profession. it would make a wonderful story

    Not Even Coverage is the Only broken thing in WVW.

  • Loesh.4697Loesh.4697 Member ✭✭✭

    @Sovereign.1093 said:

    well they do change story writers; so it would jumble up. hehe

    but for me, i want to know more about the lore of each profession. it would make a wonderful story

    I wouldn't mind that, in fact i'd go so far as to say I wouldn't mind an entire season devoted to just understanding the basics of core Tyria, I feel like bite sized episodes are the perfect way to do that as opposed to a Cataclysm style shakeup.

  • Sovereign.1093Sovereign.1093 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Loesh.4697 said:

    @Sovereign.1093 said:

    well they do change story writers; so it would jumble up. hehe

    but for me, i want to know more about the lore of each profession. it would make a wonderful story

    I wouldn't mind that, in fact i'd go so far as to say I wouldn't mind an entire season devoted to just understanding the basics of core Tyria, I feel like bite sized episodes are the perfect way to do that as opposed to a Cataclysm style shakeup.

    i would love it. i want to know how x became a guardian or how it started rtc. would be fun

    Not Even Coverage is the Only broken thing in WVW.

  • Sovereign.1093Sovereign.1093 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Loesh.4697 said:

    @Sovereign.1093 said:

    well they do change story writers; so it would jumble up. hehe

    but for me, i want to know more about the lore of each profession. it would make a wonderful story

    I wouldn't mind that, in fact i'd go so far as to say I wouldn't mind an entire season devoted to just understanding the basics of core Tyria, I feel like bite sized episodes are the perfect way to do that as opposed to a Cataclysm style shakeup.

    i would love it. i want to know how x became a guardian or how it started rtc. would be fun

    Not Even Coverage is the Only broken thing in WVW.

  • Telwyn.1630Telwyn.1630 Member ✭✭
    edited July 18, 2019

    @Loesh.4697 said:
    Does anyone else feel like after this last season, perhaps more then ever, there's less reason to root for the people of Tyria and our divided ideologies are as stark as they have ever been?

    Not that the world of Guild Wars was ever nice and pretty, but this expansion really put it in perspective of how cripplingly flawed and self destructive the Tyrian cultures are. Yes we ultimately came together to fight, and defeat, Kralk but it seems like something of a hollow victory the more I look back on it. That the threats were not the dragons, but rather the mortal races of Tyria itself, now I don't think this is a bad thing, as frankly I think that's a infinitely more interesting plot point then the Dragons themselves, but I am curious as to how it will be handled in the future. Guild Wars has never shied away from the ugliness of it's nations, whether that be Lions Arch tolerating the barbaric Centaur tribes for profit or the frankly Fascist society of the Charr, the crippling wealth inequality of humanity or the anachro-capitalist nightmare of the Asura where their failures often wind up being their leaders, or the Norn basically having a lawless wild west where everyone is out for themselves.

    But with NPCs like Shaman Ninukab critiquing each society he's approached by, the flaws of human faith through Balthazar, the ravenous destructive experimentation of the Inquest, and the Olmakhan just putting Charr society on blast in general, leads me to believe that around now is where there will be some kind of reckoning to tie up plot points from the the core game. In particular between Rytlocks Shortstory and the Olmakhan it feels like the Charr are up next to bat after the Sylvari got hit in HoT and humans were in PoF.

    What do you all think?

    With the elder dragon threat mostly resolved now I been thinking, besides Elona having a long long recovering effort with the pact commader, and allies help.
    That is their a risk of the charr legions breaking their temporary treaty with the humans of Ascalon in Ebonhawk, and the kingdom of Kryta?
    This could happen because Fume brighteye's (who hates humans just cause her sire Hothor Brightblood was killed, which could be the reason she hates humans.) somehow replaces Smodur the Unflinching maybe he is killed or he unable to lead, cause he has been poison or something has caused him to be unable to be Iron Legions leader, and breaks the treaty and with Imperator Bangar Ruinbringer who also hates humans (which includes my Ascalonain male human character Tarwin even if he help the charr countless times in missions in the game and dose not have any reason to hate the charr.) purposely breaks the treaty with both Fume, and Banga declaring all the charr who helped the humans, and fought with them, as traitors including the charr pact commanders, this would shatter warbands as many charr warbands, have warband mates in the Pact and in Lions Arch city, and any other group that has humans in it.

    Many charr including Rytock the charr pact commanders, and otehr charr heroes, and so many charr all over Tyria who just found out they been kicked out of the legions cause they work with humans would feel betrayed, and may fight with my character Tarwin just to stop the Hostile charr from trying to start another war with the humans again.

    The war would see so many charr in the pact, including Ash Legion, and their leader Malice Swordshadow, the Iron, Blood legion charr who do not want to fight the humans of Ascalon, or believe this is outrageous that Fume and Bangar, and other charr who side with the two Imperator are foolishly starting a war with humans just cause they hate them so much.
    This war would see my character Tarwin trying to win as many charr to his side as possible, and save Ebonhawk, defeat the hostile charr that started the war and remove both Fume Brighteye's , and Bangar Ruinbringer from power, the war would see the charr legions as a whole crippled as many charr refuse to support Fume Brighteye's, and Bangar Ruinbringer and many more fight for them, so many people on both sides Fume Brighteye's, and Bangar Ruinbringer side and on Tarwin the pact commanders side would die.

    And then their be bitter male and female charr on both sides that lost something warband their life wanting to know what they are really been fighting for, some charr may have even lost the will to fight cause they cannot bare to kill another one of their own kin. My human character Tarwin confronting Fume would probably get some self justification how Tarwin's race humans are are at fault for killing her sire Hothor Brightblood, Tarwin responding her justification of the war is wrong (Fume Brighteyes could maybe be Mentally insane and not really in charge and the real one in charge of the war could Be Bangar who could be using Fume to further his possible plan to become Khan-ur so maybe Fume is just being used.) Fume, either will die fighting Tarwin, and his allies, or Tarwin after beating her in combat is able talk her down, that both of them do not have to be enemies and he willing to speak on her behave so she can be spared, (because Tarwin believes in mercy) and is able to get Fume Brighteyes to surrender. Bangar would try and kill Tarwin in battle only to be killed by Rytlock.

    The after math of the war would see the legions in bad shape crippled from fight Tarwin and his allies and from within, the legions could be at risk of falling apart at this point that someone among the charr must become Khan-ur to unit the charr and keep the legions from falling apart who would it be I have no idea.
    This is all something that could happen either in the after math of guild wars 2 or during the game itself in the next season, will happen it could , as what I wrote above could happen.

  • Kalavier.1097Kalavier.1097 Member ✭✭✭

    @Telwyn.1630 said:
    With the elder dragon threat mostly resolved now I been thinking, besides Elona having a long long recovering effort with the pact commader, and allies help.
    That is their a risk of the charr legions breaking their temporary treaty with the humans of Ascalon in Ebonhawk, and the kingdom of Kryta?

    The charr have no reason to break the treaty. Every issue they had before (That was why they were careful about sending troops to Maguuma to help the pact) Is still very much active. Breaking the treaty means not only adding another new warfront, but also risking pissing off the Pact and other factions, meaning they are in even worse spot.

  • Ototo.3214Ototo.3214 Member ✭✭✭

    @Kalavier.1097 said:

    @Telwyn.1630 said:
    With the elder dragon threat mostly resolved now I been thinking, besides Elona having a long long recovering effort with the pact commader, and allies help.
    That is their a risk of the charr legions breaking their temporary treaty with the humans of Ascalon in Ebonhawk, and the kingdom of Kryta?

    The charr have no reason to break the treaty. Every issue they had before (That was why they were careful about sending troops to Maguuma to help the pact) Is still very much active. Breaking the treaty means not only adding another new warfront, but also risking pissing off the Pact and other factions, meaning they are in even worse spot.

    I wouldn't put it past Bangar to start something though, they somewhat randomly made Rytlock reflect back on his Blood Legion backstory in the Requiem short story and I personally got the impression that that might go somewhere.

  • Kalavier.1097Kalavier.1097 Member ✭✭✭

    @Ototo.3214 said:

    @Kalavier.1097 said:

    @Telwyn.1630 said:
    With the elder dragon threat mostly resolved now I been thinking, besides Elona having a long long recovering effort with the pact commader, and allies help.
    That is their a risk of the charr legions breaking their temporary treaty with the humans of Ascalon in Ebonhawk, and the kingdom of Kryta?

    The charr have no reason to break the treaty. Every issue they had before (That was why they were careful about sending troops to Maguuma to help the pact) Is still very much active. Breaking the treaty means not only adding another new warfront, but also risking pissing off the Pact and other factions, meaning they are in even worse spot.

    I wouldn't put it past Bangar to start something though, they somewhat randomly made Rytlock reflect back on his Blood Legion backstory in the Requiem short story and I personally got the impression that that might go somewhere.

    Blood Legion is also the legion that sent troops to DR to explicitly reinforce the city against the White Mantle, and quoting the officer in charge "We won't let the white mantle destroy what our races have built together."

    Even then, If blood legion did, that's zero reasoning for Ash or Iron to also follow. And blood would have to bypass Ascalon to do anything if Iron doesn't budge on breaking the treaty.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Kalavier.1097 said:

    @Telwyn.1630 said:
    With the elder dragon threat mostly resolved now I been thinking, besides Elona having a long long recovering effort with the pact commader, and allies help.
    That is their a risk of the charr legions breaking their temporary treaty with the humans of Ascalon in Ebonhawk, and the kingdom of Kryta?

    The charr have no reason to break the treaty. Every issue they had before (That was why they were careful about sending troops to Maguuma to help the pact) Is still very much active. Breaking the treaty means not only adding another new warfront, but also risking pissing off the Pact and other factions, meaning they are in even worse spot.

    Flame Legion isn't really active after their Imperator and Hierophant's death (CoF story) and three faction leaders' deaths (CoF explorable) and another faction leader's failure (MA). Branded aren't really an active threat now that Kralkatorrik is gone. And ogres are less of a threat as well due to them joining the Pact or migrating south. The Separatists lost their primary funding via Caudecus' death.

    That just leaves the Foefire ghosts and Renegades as truly active threats.

    The common theory for why Bangar may break the treaty and ally with the Renegades is under the premise that first Rytlock solves the Foefire problem (if this is the S5 plot, then it'd be in the first episode of S5). That, and it is suggested that the majority of Renegades are Blood Legion, so Bangar may already be behind them and hindering the treaty already.

    The Pact also doesn't involve themselves in non-dragon affairs. The only reason they were involved with the Flame Legion was because they believed the Flame Legion had weaponry the Pact could use against the Flame Legion (Gaheron's "god form" magic, to be specific). The asura, norn, and sylvari nations would largely be non-involved. That would just leave Kryta and the Orders at most that would come to Ebonhawke's aid (Iron and Ash being wildcards in this scenario).

    @Kalavier.1097 said:
    Blood Legion is also the legion that sent troops to DR to explicitly reinforce the city against the White Mantle, and quoting the officer in charge "We won't let the white mantle destroy what our races have built together."

    Even then, If blood legion did, that's zero reasoning for Ash or Iron to also follow. And blood would have to bypass Ascalon to do anything if Iron doesn't budge on breaking the treaty.

    You're mistaking the Sentinels for Blood Legion. The Sentinels are a segment of the Iron Legion.

    Also, Blood Legion could cross the Blazeridge, since their citadel is already east of them. No need to go through Iron territory.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Kalavier.1097Kalavier.1097 Member ✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    Flame Legion isn't really active after their Imperator and Hierophant's death (CoF story) and three faction leaders' deaths (CoF explorable) and another faction leader's failure (MA). Branded aren't really an active threat now that Kralkatorrik is gone. And ogres are less of a threat as well due to them joining the Pact or migrating south. The Separatists lost their primary funding via Caudecus' death.

    At the world summit, flame legion surging forth to exploit any perceived weak points (due to movement of troops to help the pact) was brought up as a concern of Iron legion. Branded are still going to be around, as the brandstorm is still active and we've seen and been told about how Orr and the heart of Maguuma are still incredibly dangerous places, even without those elder dragons around.

    That just leaves the Foefire ghosts and Renegades as truly active threats.

    The three big concerns were foefire ghosts, Branded, and flame legion. Renegades are in one specific region. I'd say Hostile Ogre tribes are another big threat.

    The common theory for why Bangar may break the treaty and ally with the Renegades is under the premise that first Rytlock solves the Foefire problem (if this is the S5 plot, then it'd be in the first episode of S5). That, and it is suggested that the majority of Renegades are Blood Legion, so Bangar may already be behind them and hindering the treaty already.

    The Pact also doesn't involve themselves in non-dragon affairs. The only reason they were involved with the Flame Legion was because they believed the Flame Legion had weaponry the Pact could use against the Flame Legion (Gaheron's "god form" magic, to be specific). The asura, norn, and sylvari nations would largely be non-involved. That would just leave Kryta and the Orders at most that would come to Ebonhawke's aid (Iron and Ash being wildcards in this scenario).

    My main issue is the "why", Blood Legion doesn't really have much to gain from starting a war, and breaking a treaty that they also signed could backfire with relations from other groups, including Iron. Three legions working together couldn't make real headway against Ebonhawke, what would one legion standing by itself hope to do marching long distances and trying to invade Kryta?

    The various groups in the Pact may be enticed to join up with the commander, who would end up fighting against the Charr though.

  • Aaron Ansari.1604Aaron Ansari.1604 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Kalavier.1097 said:

    My main issue is the "why", Blood Legion doesn't really have much to gain from starting a war, and breaking a treaty that they also signed could backfire with relations from other groups, including Iron. Three legions working together couldn't make real headway against Ebonhawke, what would one legion standing by itself hope to do marching long distances and trying to invade Kryta?

    It would still run the risk of being suicidally shortsighted, but... the little we've heard about Bangar before ("Bangar is the true wild card, distrustful and prone to rage. Still, his hatred for humans overcomes his suspicions about the other imperators, and he has committed a great number of troops to the Black Citadel's command.") suggests that there's a pretty fair chance the peace tipped the other two legions over on to his list of enemies. I don't think an out-and-out invasion of Ascalon is in the Blood Legion's cards (although I may be wrong, especially if they leave the troops already there in place and playing along until they're ready to launch the assault), but breaking off ties to Iron and Ash and starting border skirmishes back up may seem like a reasonable measure. And if he sees a chance to start counter-recruiting from Flame? "Give up the gods that we've killed off anyway, and we'll give you a chance to bring down your other enemies"? Unless he provokes a unified response from the other races, and I don't think their commitment to each other is strong enough to run that risk, I think Blood has a good shot of at least holding their own against Iron and Ash.

    R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.

  • Telwyn.1630Telwyn.1630 Member ✭✭

    @Kalavier.1097 said:

    @Ototo.3214 said:

    @Kalavier.1097 said:

    @Telwyn.1630 said:
    With the elder dragon threat mostly resolved now I been thinking, besides Elona having a long long recovering effort with the pact commader, and allies help.
    That is their a risk of the charr legions breaking their temporary treaty with the humans of Ascalon in Ebonhawk, and the kingdom of Kryta?

    The charr have no reason to break the treaty. Every issue they had before (That was why they were careful about sending troops to Maguuma to help the pact) Is still very much active. Breaking the treaty means not only adding another new warfront, but also risking pissing off the Pact and other factions, meaning they are in even worse spot.

    I wouldn't put it past Bangar to start something though, they somewhat randomly made Rytlock reflect back on his Blood Legion backstory in the Requiem short story and I personally got the impression that that might go somewhere.

    Blood Legion is also the legion that sent troops to DR to explicitly reinforce the city against the White Mantle, and quoting the officer in charge "We won't let the white mantle destroy what our races have built together."

    Even then, If blood legion did, that's zero reasoning for Ash or Iron to also follow. And blood would have to bypass Ascalon to do anything if Iron doesn't budge on breaking the treaty.

    Agree but Banger dose not want to be at peace with the humans and if has even one chance to start another war I am sure he take it. Fume Brighteyes wants to be the new Iron legion leader and replace Smodur if that happens will I can see Fume who hates humans breaking the peace treaty down over time and trying to get the old haterd back up and having charr like the charr pact commanders kicked of the legion if they refuse to go to war against the humans once another war is started.

  • Telwyn.1630Telwyn.1630 Member ✭✭

    @Aaron Ansari.1604 said:

    @Kalavier.1097 said:

    My main issue is the "why", Blood Legion doesn't really have much to gain from starting a war, and breaking a treaty that they also signed could backfire with relations from other groups, including Iron. Three legions working together couldn't make real headway against Ebonhawke, what would one legion standing by itself hope to do marching long distances and trying to invade Kryta?

    It would still run the risk of being suicidally shortsighted, but... the little we've heard about Bangar before ("Bangar is the true wild card, distrustful and prone to rage. Still, his hatred for humans overcomes his suspicions about the other imperators, and he has committed a great number of troops to the Black Citadel's command.") suggests that there's a pretty fair chance the peace tipped the other two legions over on to his list of enemies. I don't think an out-and-out invasion of Ascalon is in the Blood Legion's cards (although I may be wrong, especially if they leave the troops already there in place and playing along until they're ready to launch the assault), but breaking off ties to Iron and Ash and starting border skirmishes back up may seem like a reasonable measure. And if he sees a chance to start counter-recruiting from Flame? "Give up the gods that we've killed off anyway, and we'll give you a chance to bring down your other enemies"? Unless he provokes a unified response from the other races, and I don't think their commitment to each other is strong enough to run that risk, I think Blood has a good shot of at least holding their own against Iron and Ash.

    Alot of blood legion charr keep however saying if your human they are glad your on their side and even respect you and do not want to fight you and rather fight with you, if war did break out again alot of charr would not want to fight the humans of Ascalon added that the idea of losing their lifes and friends and family lifes over another war is not what they want

  • Aaron Ansari.1604Aaron Ansari.1604 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 22, 2019

    @Telwyn.1630 said:

    added that the idea of losing their lifes and friends and family lifes over another war is not what they want

    Leaving aside the divisions within the legion- I do think that would happen, but not on any greater level than the peace already caused- how is this different than the war they're fighting now? The charr legions aren't driven by ideals of self-protection, or the well-being of their people, or even the right for national autonomy. Their war has always been, at least in theory, about the ascendancy of their Imperator above all others. It's something that they've been doing for more than a thousand years, and the fact that the society is still around and still fighting says that they've found ways to cope with the attendant loss of life. (This is, after all, the race that works in two 'victory at any cost's before you even start playing.) I get that it's a senseless loss of life by our sensitivities, but for the legion charr, it's just another Tuesday.

    R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.

  • Telwyn.1630Telwyn.1630 Member ✭✭
    edited July 22, 2019

    yeah it be like that for the charr till their they create machine guns which then kill hundreds then war is no longer glorious or an adventure its about surviving, made up a story idea I been thinking about making picture years after guild wars 2 in a new time where what if a great war happen in with new powerful weapons being used suddenly your at risk of losing thousands of troops in just a few mere days, as many nations now use new weapons and guns, ships start out-dating most melee combat weapons, wars are no longer so great to fight, oh sure at first it seems it be another glorious adventure only for the battles and the war to drag out, that nations end up at a stablemate and lost so much and gained so little that you end with the result of a weaken mainland tyria nations, for the charr weather they win or lose in a war where guns have replaced old ways of fighting, wars become far more costly even with the right tactics and planing, everyone was too use to fighting elder dragons not with the weapons of war against each other, if the charr legions start a war for conquest which they sadly will do again and are the losers of the war and get the most blamed for and are force to pay back for what they destroyed and the lives lost, will we could end up with a charr society that will collapse in on them selves and either fall to peace, after bitterly getting the message that victory no matter the cost is not worth it when you lose so much more now with new weapons of war capable of killing many of your brothers and sister at arms in battle, and or to a charr regime lead by a charr who says he is the Khan-ur and its almost like a fascist Germany, and Imperial Japan, and the charr are convicded by their new Khan-ur, once again that its their right and destiny to rule the world and that if they cannot win battles the right way they have to commit acts of evil, and fight dirty just to win the war even if its unsavory and wicked in the eyes of others, even then you have charr who do not agree with this, female charr are also encouraged to not fight in the war as many charr in the first great war came back traumatized and female charr were hit the worse with it, and are instead required to give birth to as many charr cubs as they can, female charr can still learn to fight but the new Khan ur wants all female charr part of the legions to give birth to as many charr cubs as they can to out breed humans who are always having more children, female charr end up only being able to fight with a limit capacity and are mostly used to sneak behind enemy lines, many female charr end up protesting that they are only able to be breeders, but propaganda is used to point that male charr are stronger then female charr, and better suited for the horrors of war while female charr (in truth its cause the new khan ur dose not like that male charr have to obey female charr leaders and it embarrasses male charr and their pride.) The result is another uprising of female charr who start outnumbering male charr as the war goes on and the Legions after who knows how many years of fighting start losing what they took.
    If the charr are defeated again after many more years of fighting were left (not including the olmakan charr and the charr who turned on the legions)with the charr legions crippled beyond grief they refused to see that war is not the same as it once was and is far to destructive that no nation, and races do not like it when you want to conquer and slaughter them, the charr could be stuck with an occupation force, that demilitarizes the charr legions, and end the legions way of life including having cubs being handed over to a fafer and get the charr to restore the valve of family, (the charr did once upon time valve family till the flame legion charr, and the male controlled legion charr after flame legion rule was overthrown abandon.) Many charr adults would be restless about this but they do not have a choice they started two world wars lost them both but not before destroying so much and killing so many. At this point the female charr population outnumbers the male charr population and it dose not change cause the lose among the charr military that mostly had male charr fighting took a heavy tool out of them.

    Many charr renounce war and like Japan dose today their are charr in the former legions apologizing for the war they started, also the charr as a whole be bitter that the Khan-ur did not hold the promise of victory and that that goal of taking over the world failed. Over the years long after war is sort of rare to fight the charr could end up somewhat like Japan of today a race that prospers with many charr enjoying peace, and female charr enjoying casual life styles, but the charr race would still have a history tainted by war and bloodshed.

    This all just made up and not likely to really happen so take it with a grain of salt.

  • Loesh.4697Loesh.4697 Member ✭✭✭

    Don't forget that Blood Legion isn't alone in this, we've heard about Fume Brighteye being on the verge of making a power play for awhile now. With the Foefire Ghosts vanquished the Claw of the Khan Ur would come into focus, I could see Brighteye trying to take it for herself, I could even see her even betraying Iron ad handing it over to Bangar and the Blood Legion just to keep the war with humanity going. The Ash Legion are the only ones of the three who don't seem to have a significant reason to pursue a war with the human race, but who knows? could go either way depending on what exactly is revealed about Ash Citadel, if anything.

    I do feel like the Charr are next up to bat. Heart of Thorns and Path of Fire were targeted at the Sylvari and humanity specifically, if we wanted to follow a pattern an expansion critiquing the Charr and their culture is due, judging by all the things we've seen in the latest season it also seems to be lining up pretty well. Who knows? perhaps what breaks the camels back is even the Olmakhan themselves, their version of history directly contradicts Legion records and perceptions of events, if more people like Rox start flooding to the tribes the Charr might feel it's time to make a power play. Hell it'd even fit their Roman aesthetic, a grand display of violence to keep their populace unconcerned with their growing social issues.

  • EmmetOtter.8542EmmetOtter.8542 Member ✭✭✭

    I see a lot of mingling, mutual respect and cooperation in the PoF, LW3 and 4 stories and many instances where multi-racial groups aren't forced on the members but desired by the members.

    The only places where I see separatism is in the core Tyria areas

  • Loesh.4697Loesh.4697 Member ✭✭✭

    @EmmetOtter.8542 said:
    I see a lot of mingling, mutual respect and cooperation in the PoF, LW3 and 4 stories and many instances where multi-racial groups aren't forced on the members but desired by the members.

    The only places where I see separatism is in the core Tyria areas

    Separatism was a pretty prominent fixture of LW3 as part of the White Mantles push, you can see that pretty clear in the Caudecus Mansion. Nevermind that there's been a lot of allusions to Ascalon in LW3 and PoF with the increased importance of Sohothan, Rytlocks story calling attention to Bangar, the Olmakhan lore spelling out that Charr society is at this rate doomed to destroy everyone and then itself in a fit of conquest, heck the Zephyrites still haven't even forgiven the Sylvari for crashing the Sanctum! Sure there's mutual respect, cooperation, and mingling, but it's offset by some political drama that does seem destined to boil over soon.

  • Telwyn.1630Telwyn.1630 Member ✭✭

    @Loesh.4697 said:
    Don't forget that Blood Legion isn't alone in this, we've heard about Fume Brighteye being on the verge of making a power play for awhile now. With the Foefire Ghosts vanquished the Claw of the Khan Ur would come into focus, I could see Brighteye trying to take it for herself, I could even see her even betraying Iron ad handing it over to Bangar and the Blood Legion just to keep the war with humanity going. The Ash Legion are the only ones of the three who don't seem to have a significant reason to pursue a war with the human race, but who knows? could go either way depending on what exactly is revealed about Ash Citadel, if anything.

    I do feel like the Charr are next up to bat. Heart of Thorns and Path of Fire were targeted at the Sylvari and humanity specifically, if we wanted to follow a pattern an expansion critiquing the Charr and their culture is due, judging by all the things we've seen in the latest season it also seems to be lining up pretty well. Who knows? perhaps what breaks the camels back is even the Olmakhan themselves, their version of history directly contradicts Legion records and perceptions of events, if more people like Rox start flooding to the tribes the Charr might feel it's time to make a power play. Hell it'd even fit their Roman aesthetic, a grand display of violence to keep their populace unconcerned with their growing social issues.

    Yeah picture if your human how Fume Brighteye wants to kill you and may use her sire being killed an excuse, I love female charr and rather just tie up fume brighteyes over killing her, and just force her to see that humans and charr do not have to be enemies. I really hope it dose not come down to kill FUme Brighteyes.

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