Meta has been stale for too long

Mainly due to the strength of revs, the top end needs a damage shave so other classes can compete.

The last big change to the meta was scrapper buffs a year ago, since then it's been a whole lot of nothing to shake things up =/

People are losing interest because it's getting boring and you never know what killed you, you can't see any of the 10k+ Rev hits since they all get culled

Well to go back to the one thing that always solve this, enable friendly fire.

Last couple times I died in a zerg fight it I was attempting to roll out of the big red swirling circle of a desert shrouding sand shade, then ploop insta dead. As I scroll through the damage log I see I got hit with a bunch of rev hammer hits... all I can do is laugh can't even see the red circles buried under the swirl, only thing to save you these days is instant immunity. Over time the damage has become pretty stupid in the game, and I expect it will never change because it would require an overhaul which they will most certainly never bother to do.

@Dawdler.8521 said:Well to go back to the one thing that always solve this, enable friendly fire.

That will be a fun reset I guess :D

But Rev is strong, but only becuase healing and cleansing keeping them alive. Take that away and they need to take care a bit of themselves a bit more. But I doubt Anet wants to change scrappers again.

To be honest allowing earth overload stability to be shared, and carry over the Roiling Mist adjustment from PvP would go a long way

Well, they haven't properly adressed the three main culprits, for all of PoF, so obviously things do not change drastically. The balance passes we have seen have added some potential counterplays but not enough to all out challenge the norms. If that is what one wants to do (personally, I prefer adressing balance over recycling FotM). That means that other approaches are possible now but not necessarily better if we're hellbent on a change of the norm itself.

WoD still has the same radius which is the main issue with it, all other changes aside.

Shades still have their radius and reach along with doing so many things at once on such an easily applied click, scaling the way that does.

CoR still have the same issues it had throughout HoT. The only reason complaints died down about it was due to player-organisation and choice. It's not like you couldn't pirateship the boon-balls or condi-balls that came along, it's just that it was more difficult to make it happen over the spread of classes people choose to play. The boon meta included more random classes so larger groups just settled for that. At smaller scale (eg., GvG) the defensive at the time just scaled better massing CoR and there were other things that had more appeal there (Arc dividers and stuff). So it simply fell out of practical fashion but it never changed on paper. With the game returning to a pirateship meta it was sure to come back.

The only difference now is that there is so much scaling issues left, right and center so it's hard to create a good environment with small means. I'm starting to side with the people who want a major overhaul or a back-to-basics approach for literally everything. It's so much more than just boons, doubled condis and CoR that is out of whack now.

Rev are > @RisenHowl.2419 said:

Mainly due to the strength of revs, the top end needs a damage shave so other classes can compete.

The last big change to the meta was scrapper buffs a year ago, since then it's been a whole lot of nothing to shake things up =/

People are losing interest because it's getting boring and you never know what killed you, you can't see any of the 10k+ Rev hits since they all get culled

wait, 10k is a problem? so de's 15k+ is not a problem?

everything needs a huge overhaul, there's too much multi target boons, too much mobile aoe dmg, too much aoe sustain, dmg too high

fb scrap rev scourge is love is life. <3

@RisenHowl.2419 said:shake things upIs this the same RisenOwl that advertises great side-builds on YT?!? ^^ So, yes its possible for the players to shake things up, at least in public zergs. Considering, that the public also consists of „from-time-to-time casual players“ that don't practice in fight guilds and thus can't even handle the same „high-end“ builds and tactics like the hardcore fight elite.

How could a casual handle a FB skill rotation? How could a casual survive 3-min zerg fights on a bersi scourge with almost no sustain and mobility? At least not me ;) A 50+ public zerg would need at least 10 well-played FBs, to make the „meta“ groups work. Where do you get all these FBs from?

Everyone is playing (or trying to) scourge ball, and „meta“ is the counter to the enemy's tactic. So how can scourge ball be a counter to scourge ball? Except from switching between poke and push at the right time. This is not PvE, where scripted NPCs can be countered just by one single cookie cutter „meta“, that everyone plays.

@RisenHowl.2419 said:People are losing interest because it's getting boringSome Coms relentlessly stick to their praised meta, which sadly results in lots of boring one-push fights on both sides. But other Coms consider the available means (aka hello SlB ^^) and adapt.

@RisenHowl.2419 said:Mainly due to the strength of revs, the top end needs a damage shave so other classes can compete.May be boring for fight-competitive hardcore WvWlers, who always have to / want to / are able to play the current high end builds in theory crafting, agreed. But for public zergs, there are some side-builders that can compete with or even outperform cookie cutter builds (EDIT: that are not well-played ofc), so imo its more like a "its-up-to-the-players" issue (not entirely ofc).

@RisenHowl.2419 said:Mainly due to the strength of revs, the top end needs a damage shave so other classes can compete.

The last big change to the meta was scrapper buffs a year ago, since then it's been a whole lot of nothing to shake things up =/

People are losing interest because it's getting boring and you never know what killed you, you can't see any of the 10k+ Rev hits since they all get culled

Can’t blame a profession. The issues are lack of expansion and greater changes to all professions.

@Sovereign.1093 said:fb scrap rev scourge is love is life. <3

Its was the death of wvw.

Since the release of PoF, core players had no chance to play efficiently. Before PoF the AH front line guardian was viable, but now FB just overshades it and made it dissapear in the shadows. How many core you can see nowdays in zerg besides ele?The game is NOT balanced since PoF or maybe since HoT.

This game has became passive p2w, no expansion no place in endgame content for you.

Game Update Notes: April 23, 2019

Profession SkillsElite specializations were introduced with the Heart of Thorns™ expansion and have become a regular sight throughout Tyria. These specializations have sometimes come with trade-offs, and sometimes they've been purely beneficial compared to a core specialization, often because they add something on top of everything the profession already does. We believe that elite specializations are a more meaningful choice when they have some trade-off or change some core part of a profession's mechanics.

To use the example of necromancer, by choosing an elite specialization, you lose access to your core Death Shroud abilities, but you gain different abilities. This is a clear trade-off. In the case of elite specializations like druid, herald, chronomancer, berserker, or scrapper, this type of trade-off isn't possible because the specialization adds a completely new ability. With this update,

we're targeting a few elite specializations to receive trade-offs, and we expect to continue doing this in future updates.

As for general changes, we've made a few consistency updates to aura naming and introduced dark auras to the game. We also changed a number of abilities that would destroy missiles, making them block missiles instead.

As they mentioned, Elite specializations should receive trade-offs, and I'm totally agree with. But im still waiting them to balance it patch after patch. The great example of no trade-off elite specializations are Firebrand and DH, they gets new abilities without losing sustain, damage, the virtues has the same passive, new skills that works WAAAAAAAAAY better than core virtues.

In summary, until they add trade off to all elite specializations, there won't never be major change for WvW.And, WvW is not core friendly anymore. p2w.

@Jski.6180 said:

@Sovereign.1093 said:fb scrap rev scourge is love is life. <3

anet needs to rotate the flavor of the month. but on the death of wvw? it's anet failing to put up tournaments and incentives so players play hard. not just stack for the best karma farm. we got too mnay players spread and without a reason to play. to many tiers, the lag, etc.

anet killed the game for making it less competitive. :pensive:

@Sovereign.1093 said:

@Jski.6180 said:

@Sovereign.1093 said:fb scrap rev scourge is love is life. <3

I mean we know that the ranger longbow in particular would have to be buffed through the roof because its way too weak, but besides that. Definetly make a thief healspec, possibly dd (heal every dodge and staff stomp!).

The problem with your claim OP is that Rev's are bound by energy. They can't exactly go around spamming their 10K hits (most of them are blocked anyway - insert start a new thread on blocks being out of control), they have to be calculated in their attacks.

I've brought this up before and I'll bring it up again. You lower the damage of revs, you have to remove their energy requirement. If you remove their energy requirement, you have 101 more problem than what you started with. You don't want things like drop the hammer, CoR, Sword 4 or 5, or any of shiro's even remotely spammable. If you start putting significant cool downs on them, you've effectively killed the class dead on the spot.

It's funny:

• people repeatedly complain of scourges and shades, yet during this core swap event, I seem to be getting nothing but necro orbs because they are so slow and easy to kill
• people repeatedly complain about SB's yet i don't remember the last time I've been killed by one, and their LB shots are beyond weak
• people complain about Rev hits, but I rarely am hit with drop the hammer, nor do I take many CoR hits, and when I do, don't seem to phase me

So what gives? Am I the greatest WvW player of all time that seems to be immune or unphased by all these OP builds that people speak of? Perhaps I need to continually swap servers, sit on my mount and remain a fly on the wall in these zerg fights. Then take all these players that are dying aside and outline the rudimentary fundamentals on what they're doing wrong and how to easily stay alive.

Edit - You know a good way to shake things up? Have it so if a player wears full zerkers (armor only + trinkets), all their attacks ignore armor. Won't matter how much toughness a player has; all the hits they will take will be as if they were buck naked. There, that will shake things up

@DeadlySynz.3471 said:The problem with your claim OP is that Rev's are bound by energy. They can't exactly go around spamming their 10K hits (most of them are blocked anyway - insert start a new thread on blocks being out of control), they have to be calculated in their attacks.

I've brought this up before and I'll bring it up again. You lower the damage of revs, you have to remove their energy requirement. If you remove their energy requirement, you have 101 more problem than what you started with. You don't want things like drop the hammer, CoR, Sword 4 or 5, or any of shiro's even remotely spammable. If you start putting significant cool downs on them, you've effectively killed the class dead on the spot.

It's funny:

• people repeatedly complain of scourges and shades, yet during this core swap event, I seem to be getting nothing but necro orbs because they are so slow and easy to kill
• people repeatedly complain about SB's yet i don't remember the last time I've been killed by one, and their LB shots are beyond weak
• people complain about Rev hits, but I rarely am hit with drop the hammer, nor do I take many CoR hits, and when I do, don't seem to phase me

So what gives? Am I the greatest WvW player of all time that seems to be immune or unphased by all these OP builds that people speak of? Perhaps I need to continually swap servers, sit on my mount and remain a fly on the wall in these zerg fights. Then take all these players that are dying aside and outline the rudimentary fundamentals on what they're doing wrong and how to easily stay alive.

Edit - You know a good way to shake things up? Have it so if a player wears full zerkers (armor only + trinkets), all their attacks ignore armor. Won't matter how much toughness a player has; all the hits they will take will be as if they were buck naked. There, that will shake things up

Do you play spellbreaker by any chance?

@enkidu.5937 said:

@RisenHowl.2419 said:shake things upIs this the same RisenOwl that advertises great side-builds on YT?!? ^^ So, yes its possible for the players to shake things up, at least in public zergs. Considering, that the public also consists of „from-time-to-time casual players“ that don't practice in fight guilds and thus can't even handle the same „high-end“ builds and tactics like the hardcore fight elite.

@RisenHowl.2419 said:People are losing interest because it's getting boringSome Coms relentlessly stick to their praised meta, which sadly results in lots of boring one-push fights on both sides. But other Coms consider the available means (aka hello SlB ^^) and adapt.

@RisenHowl.2419 said:Mainly due to the strength of revs, the top end needs a damage shave so other classes can compete.May be boring for fight-competitive hardcore WvWlers, who always have to / want to / are able to play the current high end builds in theory crafting, agreed. But for public zergs, there are some side-builders that can compete with or even outperform cookie cutter builds (EDIT: that are not well-played ofc), so imo its more like a "its-up-to-the-players" issue (not entirely ofc).

Yeah, it's me. Glad you like the videos =D

That's what i'm talking about, stale meta. fb is required for every single party, no substitutions are possible =/

you can run fb/scrapper/scourge/herald x2 and handle every situation better than with any other combination. Annihilation at 1200 range, Close range can bulwark+dwarf+protection+barrier through any push while the scourges dump double damage bombs. Shit's been the best way to do things forever and it's old =/

You can create and play some really solid side builds, but if you're skilled enough to play them competitively you could just play a scourge or rev and provide a bigger benefit

@Swagger.1459 said:

@RisenHowl.2419 said:Mainly due to the strength of revs, the top end needs a damage shave so other classes can compete.

The last big change to the meta was scrapper buffs a year ago, since then it's been a whole lot of nothing to shake things up =/

People are losing interest because it's getting boring and you never know what killed you, you can't see any of the 10k+ Rev hits since they all get culled

I think power creep is the culprit. Blaming heralds in particular since they edge out everyone in terms of who provides the most. At the very least, the culling needs to be fixed so you know when to dodge. As it stands, getting into <1200 range means you sit in the middle of the ball so you can get ressed when the rev bomb hits or you get lucky and they don't see you.

@DeadlySynz.3471 said:The problem with your claim OP is that Rev's are bound by energy. They can't exactly go around spamming their 10K hits (most of them are blocked anyway - insert start a new thread on blocks being out of control), they have to be calculated in their attacks.

I've brought this up before and I'll bring it up again. You lower the damage of revs, you have to remove their energy requirement. If you remove their energy requirement, you have 101 more problem than what you started with. You don't want things like drop the hammer, CoR, Sword 4 or 5, or any of shiro's even remotely spammable. If you start putting significant cool downs on them, you've effectively killed the class dead on the spot.

It's funny:

• people repeatedly complain of scourges and shades, yet during this core swap event, I seem to be getting nothing but necro orbs because they are so slow and easy to kill
• people repeatedly complain about SB's yet i don't remember the last time I've been killed by one, and their LB shots are beyond weak
• people complain about Rev hits, but I rarely am hit with drop the hammer, nor do I take many CoR hits, and when I do, don't seem to phase me

So what gives? Am I the greatest WvW player of all time that seems to be immune or unphased by all these OP builds that people speak of? Perhaps I need to continually swap servers, sit on my mount and remain a fly on the wall in these zerg fights. Then take all these players that are dying aside and outline the rudimentary fundamentals on what they're doing wrong and how to easily stay alive.

Edit - You know a good way to shake things up? Have it so if a player wears full zerkers (armor only + trinkets), all their attacks ignore armor. Won't matter how much toughness a player has; all the hits they will take will be as if they were buck naked. There, that will shake things up

You can sit at 1200 range and hammer 2/3/5 on cd while gaining energy for as long as you like. Since all three hit for 10k+ and have a 4/8/15s CD respectively, they're very spammable. Move into 1200 range with the ball, chunk 5 people, drop the hammer on ressers, pull out of 1200 range. repeat until the enemy is small enough that you can run them over in one push. You have decent access to unblockable on rev too, so...? You can even run quickbrands so all of the rev attacks strip stability for extra fun.

herald needs a heft damage chop to hammer or to the multiplicatively stacking damage modifiers. Dropping rev hammer to 900 range would even make things more interesting than they are now since the only class that can hit back is a weaver or another herald. Herald's the only reason pirate ship exists.

What gives is you likely either have a good group that you run with, or you stay at +1200 range and contribute very little to winning fights, or you're fighting really bad players. You'll know it when you fight a good group because you'll see 5 people in your squad instantly drop as soon as you're in 1200 range.

Maybe you don't understand how toughness works? protection is worth as much to a player with base toughness as adding ~800 toughness. rite of the great dwarf is the same as ~1300 toughness. together, due to multiplicative scaling, they're worth (.67*.5) 66.5% damage reduction, or the same as adding almost 1700 toughness. Add in bulwark gyro and dwarf f2 and even with no toughness there's plenty of damage reduction provided by the group.

The thing is, adding more toughness only increases your survivability by a lot if your group isn't very good. If your group is good, toughness adds very little since it scales with all the -damage modifiers. Adding more power however, gets better and better the more you do it. When you have 3k power, losing 100 for 100 toughness isn't anywhere near the impact on your damage that losing 100 power would be if you have 4k already. So the better your group, the glassier you run. Adding in 'full zerkers causes toughness to do nothing' would change not a single thing with the current setup, so long as the boons are rolling you wouldn't even notice it.

the meta has been bad for awhile with the power creep rising and no balance in the future. Quit the game and enjoy the summer. improve that basement tan.

1 fb 2 revs 2 scourge = three classes that is the current king. :3

@Sovereign.1093 said:

@Jski.6180 said:

@Sovereign.1093 said:fb scrap rev scourge is love is life. <3

Sadly the meta we are in and have been in for a long time was the start of wvw true death. This event that going on now is the best example of it. Pve players should be in wvw non stop but its a ghost town.

What happen its the arms races for boons power creep vs corruption power creep. It made classes that should not be able to one shot able to one shot and classes whom should not be able to die in one shot be able to die in one shot. If your class was not part of this arms races it was comply left out of wvw altogether. Its why there no balance patch that will truly fix this with out massive reworks of these 4 classes.

The meta shifted big time just four months ago. The Scrapper buff from March is insane. It has changed zergs, skirmish and small scale. The Berserker changes were no slouch either. Scrapper needs a big ole nerf hammer to land on it.

@Jski.6180 said:

@Sovereign.1093 said:

@Jski.6180 said:

@Sovereign.1093 said:fb scrap rev scourge is love is life. <3

there are pve players in wvw. but the problem happens when they try to fight a good group and ignore the people who've been doing this a long time. yesterday for example, there was a group of 10 12 with good sustain, of which i knew if ppl joined my team and voice, we could finish them along with the pugs in one push. but meh, players kep clouding, that doesn't work against a guild. the level newbies need to reach is steep. :/ because this game is easy - those of us who already know what to do are either in a server of similar level players or few in a server with lots of newbie pugs.

the power creep isn't a problem, because you can do it. it's simply the minimum number of knowledgeable players willing to use wvw centric zerg gear. i mean i can take 10 players and kill 30 bad pugs who come 2 or 5 at a time and pew pew. but imagine that 30 just ball up and push 111, my 10 would die. :P

@RisenHowl.2419

Thread title- “Meta has been stale for too long”

Original comments- “Blame Rev”

New post- “I think power creep is the culprit”

...If you have complaints about Rev then post in the Rev section. Blaming 1 of the 9 professions for the state of the “meta” is rather silly, and we all already know that power creep is a thing...

Xpac specializations and the devs making meaningful changes to professions are what changes and shifts the “meta”.

My suggestion is you rethink your post and come up with solutions to problems you see with the game. But if you are really here to complain about Rev then post your complaints and suggestions in that spot.

@Swagger.1459 said:@RisenHowl.2419

Thread title- “Meta has been stale for too long”

Original comments- “Blame Rev”

New post- “I think power creep is the culprit”

...If you have complaints about Rev then post in the Rev section. Blaming 1 of the 9 professions for the state of the “meta” is rather silly, and we all already know that power creep is a thing...

Xpac specializations and the devs making meaningful changes to professions are what changes and shifts the “meta”.

My suggestion is you rethink your post and come up with solutions to problems you see with the game. But if you are really here to complain about Rev then post your complaints and suggestions in that spot.

Alright, enlighten me. What keeps wvw's meta a pirate ship if it isn't heralds?

Repeated power creep has caused heralds to edge out every other build, which is why it needs a hefty shave. Besides that, stab access for other classes could be adjusted and purity of purpose should get reworked so only non-damaging conditions get converted to boons.

I love being pulled onto 20 stacks of Necro marks and getting nuked into non-existence.