Elementalist is in an awkward situation in wvw (blobing) — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Elementalist is in an awkward situation in wvw (blobing)

Elementalist is mediocre in all for blobing.

  • If you want to play as support healer, Firebrand can do the same, and way better. Some might say, i play with them to provide some extra healing. We have med kit scrapper than shares the 50% incoming heal to allies around him as passive and gyros to barrier and cleanse conditions.

  • If you want to play as dps, Staff weaver is the option for you. You gotta get that Elements of Rage for that extra 10% damage and METEORSHOWERRRRRRRRRRRRRRR!, gets killed by retaliation xD.

  • Wait, what? You saying that Hammer Herald can do almost the same but with lower cd?

  • So what? we have a long kitten autoattack that can hit further than maximum range with Fireball.
  • Soulbeast: Hold my beer.

Comments

  • Jski.6180Jski.6180 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Your best bet is root tempest but roots become resistance killing all other soft cc you want to land on the other team. Ele is in a very bad places at all points of gw2.

    With the wvw event ele is getting more from the soul utility then from its own class just to show you how bad it is to be an ele player.

    See ELE forms and you will get my views.

  • Thing about tempest is that it’s a very strong healer. You can single handedly top off an entire squad with every skill. However it requires stability and if you want big heals you have to sacrfifice condition cleanse. A tempest works best when there’s at most one for every 10 people in a squad. It’s subgroup must have a scrapper and a firebrand, without question.

    I love playing tempest because I can see the impact my sustain has on the squad...but if your squad is lacking firebrands and scrappers you can’t reach the potential. So ya it’s in an awkward spot but I think it’s very critical to a zerg...really good for the super speed and magnetic aura on demand as well.

  • Jski.6180Jski.6180 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:
    Thing about tempest is that it’s a very strong healer. You can single handedly top off an entire squad with every skill. However it requires stability and if you want big heals you have to sacrfifice condition cleanse. A tempest works best when there’s at most one for every 10 people in a squad. It’s subgroup must have a scrapper and a firebrand, without question.

    I love playing tempest because I can see the impact my sustain has on the squad...but if your squad is lacking firebrands and scrappers you can’t reach the potential. So ya it’s in an awkward spot but I think it’s very critical to a zerg...really good for the super speed and magnetic aura on demand as well.

    Its a good burst healer in a game with barriers that cover overs hp better then ppl can heal. Eng by far is a better healer and support over all.

    See ELE forms and you will get my views.

  • len.7809len.7809 Member ✭✭

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:
    Thing about tempest is that it’s a very strong healer. You can single handedly top off an entire squad with every skill. However it requires stability and if you want big heals you have to sacrfifice condition cleanse. A tempest works best when there’s at most one for every 10 people in a squad. It’s subgroup must have a scrapper and a firebrand, without question.

    I love playing tempest because I can see the impact my sustain has on the squad...but if your squad is lacking firebrands and scrappers you can’t reach the potential. So ya it’s in an awkward spot but I think it’s very critical to a zerg...really good for the super speed and magnetic aura on demand as well.

    Its a good burst healer in a game with barriers that cover overs hp better then ppl can heal. Eng by far is a better healer and support over all.

    exactly, Engi healer is better than Tempest healer, engi heals all the time with passive when he gets healed by any source of healing, and med kit 11111, provides barrier with gyro and cleanses aswell. Engi doesnt need to sacrifice condition cleanse to get more heals, tempest does.

  • @len.7809 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:
    Thing about tempest is that it’s a very strong healer. You can single handedly top off an entire squad with every skill. However it requires stability and if you want big heals you have to sacrfifice condition cleanse. A tempest works best when there’s at most one for every 10 people in a squad. It’s subgroup must have a scrapper and a firebrand, without question.

    I love playing tempest because I can see the impact my sustain has on the squad...but if your squad is lacking firebrands and scrappers you can’t reach the potential. So ya it’s in an awkward spot but I think it’s very critical to a zerg...really good for the super speed and magnetic aura on demand as well.

    Its a good burst healer in a game with barriers that cover overs hp better then ppl can heal. Eng by far is a better healer and support over all.

    exactly, Engi healer is better than Tempest healer, engi heals all the time with passive when he gets healed by any source of healing, and med kit 11111, provides barrier with gyro and cleanses aswell. Engi doesnt need to sacrifice condition cleanse to get more heals, tempest does.

    Ya. Regardless you don't really want your tempest to focusing on cleansing in a zerg setting anyway, since Scrappers do it much better (by converting conditions into boons.)
    Raw healing output however is in the realm of elementalists. Wash the Pain Away heals 150,000 health alone...Flash Freeze can heal 60,000 health alone. Rebound can potentially heal 130,000 health. Soothing Mist ticks at least 5,000 health every tick (1k per person max 5 people) and double Geyser is a guaranteed resurrection in blob setting, even while being pushed. Scrapper can't touch geyser resurrections, so in murder balls, Tempest really shines if you take downs.

  • SoulSlavocracy.4902SoulSlavocracy.4902 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 9, 2019

    Heal tempest
    OK tl;dr version: scrapper is definitely preferable but I've always thought having a tempest here or there is good for the 10-man heals + soothing mist buff - but you're right, it's not objectively as good as scrapper for the current meta comp although it is close.

    Raw healing output however is in the realm of elementalists. Wash the Pain Away heals 150,000 health alone...Flash Freeze can heal 60,000 health alone. Rebound can potentially heal 130,000 health. Soothing Mist ticks at least 5,000 health every tick (1k per person max 5 people) and double Geyser is a guaranteed resurrection in blob setting, even while being pushed. Scrapper can't touch geyser resurrections, so in murder balls, Tempest really shines if you take downs.

    The double geyser is GREAT, so are 10-man heals but you need to remember cooldowns and check your arcdps - if you measure a very competent heal tempest vs a very competent heal scrapper, both running optimal heal builds (so, no anti-toxin runes, and engi running the might = quickness trait for better auto heal spam), you will notice the engi can get up to 16k+ heals/s while the tempest bottoms out somewhere around 10k/s to 12k/s I believe. . . or at least it last time I checked. (I have the 16k/s engi heals on video if you need to see btw)

    Engi is a great deal faster and, believe it or not, has better burst heals than tempest - pop f1, medkit 4, medkit 2, drop elixir gun 5 and blast it, and if you're running support crate use F5 for even more heals, man, you can stand in an enemy bomb for 5-6 seconds uncontested if you're standing where the engi does that.

    But I still think running tempest is viable, so I'm not disagreeing with you overall @JusticeRetroHunter.7684

    DPS Staff Core Ele + DPS Staff Weaver

    @len.7809 said:

    • Wait, what? You saying that Hammer Herald can do almost the same but with lower cd?
    • So what? we have a long kitten autoattack that can hit further than maximum range with Fireball.
    • Soulbeast: Hold my beer.

    OK this, I just have to full-stop disagree and please understand I mean everything I am about to say with all due respect because I understand where you're coming from. Not stroking my own ego, just stating the facts - I can consistently outdps any herald I've ever been matched with by at least a margin of 10%, but usually closer to 25% even if they're good. So no. And soulbeast can't autoattack 5 targets at 1400 range for 10k each - fireball is incredibly useful and if you're running core ele it's your secondary source of damage next to meteor shower.

    Look please don't immediately dislike me for this because I know how arrogant it comes off no matter how I say it or what excuses I make prior to posting it, but I think I'm the only one consistently pumping out long-form "holy kitten weaver is amazing in blobs" videos right now (to my knowledge) so I'm just gonna have to link my own video here.

    I sincerely don't understand how anyone could, after watching at least 5 minutes, say that DPS weaver is in a poor position. Keep your eye on the DPS chart. Nobody can beat me except another equally competent (or better) weaver. I've been in squad with the GvG groups and seen their heralds fail to do it. It's been this way since PoF. Even core ele is in a good position. I have 29 videos of this, man, Weaver is still in a great spot overall.

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  • @SoulSlavocracy.4902 said:
    Heal tempest
    OK tl;dr version: scrapper is definitely preferable but I've always thought having a tempest here or there is good for the 10-man heals + soothing mist buff - but you're right, it's not objectively as good as scrapper for the current meta comp although it is close.

    Raw healing output however is in the realm of elementalists. Wash the Pain Away heals 150,000 health alone...Flash Freeze can heal 60,000 health alone. Rebound can potentially heal 130,000 health. Soothing Mist ticks at least 5,000 health every tick (1k per person max 5 people) and double Geyser is a guaranteed resurrection in blob setting, even while being pushed. Scrapper can't touch geyser resurrections, so in murder balls, Tempest really shines if you take downs.

    The double geyser is GREAT, so are 10-man heals but you need to remember cooldowns and check your arcdps - if you measure a very competent heal tempest vs a very competent heal scrapper, both running optimal heal builds (so, no anti-toxin runes, and engi running the might = quickness trait for better auto heal spam), you will notice the engi can get up to 16k+ heals/s while the tempest bottoms out somewhere around 10k/s to 12k/s I believe. . . or at least it last time I checked. (I have the 16k/s engi heals on video if you need to see btw)

    Engi is a great deal faster and, believe it or not, has better burst heals than tempest - pop f1, medkit 4, medkit 2, drop elixir gun 5 and blast it, and if you're running support crate use F5 for even more heals, man, you can stand in an enemy bomb for 5-6 seconds uncontested if you're standing where the engi does that.

    But I still think running tempest is viable, so I'm not disagreeing with you overall @JusticeRetroHunter.7684

    Interesting. Ya if you could post a video that would be really nice for me.

    What i'm more interested in is how you keep track of your HPS. Are we going off the ARCDPS self heal metric? I've never known this metric to account for healing on other people but i have no real idea how this meter really works.

  • SoulSlavocracy.4902SoulSlavocracy.4902 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 9, 2019

    @JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:
    Interesting. Ya if you could post a video that would be really nice for me.

    What i'm more interested in is how you keep track of your HPS. Are we going off the ARCDPS self heal metric? I've never known this metric to account for healing on other people but i have no real idea how this meter really works.

    I forget what exactly the window is called in the options, but it's a window that can give both incoming and outgoing damage, healing and barrier per second. So I've set it to outgoing and just look at the heals metric. I believe it's mostly accurate but you have to consider some things like time in combat (16k/s over three seconds means nothing ... in the same way, 16k/s over 2 minutes is impossible/unbelievable).

    :lol: I'm sorry, but I think I misspoke, I have a lot of clips of me reaching 11k to 12k /s but can't remember if I ever captured 16k -- I know I've reached that high before though in-game, I'm 99% certain, and I know it's possible because often the biggest limitation of heal /s is how much healing your friendlies need (can't heal someone at 100%). Still, I'll post you a video where I often average around 9k, 10k, 11k .. for the record, I'm willing to bet that on tempest you'd be at least ~2000 less at any given moment

    Here
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J8NTaDETvjk
    Also this
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yqwf-RP9B20

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    | Wrath of God Staff Weaver Part III |
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  • JusticeRetroHunter.7684JusticeRetroHunter.7684 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 9, 2019

    @SoulSlavocracy.4902 said:

    @JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:
    Interesting. Ya if you could post a video that would be really nice for me.

    What i'm more interested in is how you keep track of your HPS. Are we going off the ARCDPS self heal metric? I've never known this metric to account for healing on other people but i have no real idea how this meter really works.

    I forget what exactly the window is called in the options, but it's a window that can give both incoming and outgoing damage, healing and barrier per second. So I've set it to outgoing and just look at the heals metric. I believe it's mostly accurate but you have to consider some things like time in combat (16k/s over three seconds means nothing ... in the same way, 16k/s over 2 minutes is impossible/unbelievable).

    :lol: I'm sorry, but I think I misspoke, I have a lot of clips of me reaching 11k to 12k /s but can't remember if I ever captured 16k -- I know I've reached that high before though in-game, I'm 99% certain, and I know it's possible because often the biggest limitation of heal /s is how much healing your friendlies need (can't heal someone at 100%). Still, I'll post you a video where I often average around 9k, 10k, 11k .. for the record, I'm willing to bet that on tempest you'd be at least ~2000 less at any given moment

    Here
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J8NTaDETvjk
    Also this
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yqwf-RP9B20

    Thanks man. Ya been watching some of your video's. Can't lie the weaver vids are sick. Some really good plays.

    umm but ya back on topic. Ya in the engineer vid you linked you did hit about 16k at a point in time during the fight. on average your healing between 6k -10k. Which is a lot, and aligns pretty much with what you said already.

    From my plays on Tempest, the style of play is very different. Since it's very burst oriented, you usually only heal on the push, and unload everything you've got in that push. You still have a lot of skills at your disposal to use in a passive manner while WtPA, Rebound, Flash Freeze are on cooldown... but the HPS will drop, and usually hover around 3k - 7k, but will fluctuate drastically. So your 2k estimate is about right. Then again i haven't really monitored by HPS during the heat of a big fight to see how high it really goes, but i've seen big big numbers, sometimes like 30k HPS or more (This is more or less based on the duration of fights and how many of these big heal skills go off. so the longer the fight goes on for, the closer it will get to the 3k-7k range in HPS...But ya seeing the huge differentiation in those numbers always made me question how the heal meter in ARCDPS works...it's either super high or super low...but maybe that's just the real healing output of Tempest idk)

    From now on, i'll keep track of Healing per engagement, since i think that's probably a more valid metric to use. But just some sample points from what ive seen, on average of 1-3 minute fights, i've healed for 1 million+ Some fights more, some fights less, depending on how many skills you can effectively get off and use on as many people as you can.

  • @JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:
    snippity snip
    Some fights more, some fights less, depending on how many skills you can effectively get off and use on as many people as you can.

    Ya, it's for this reason that I often gauge heal /s as an indicator of how much damage the squad is taking -- not how much healing I'm outputting, since in terms of potential a lot more healing could be done anyway. So if I see it suddenly go up 2000 units /s I wake up a bit and get ready to burst heal since I know it will soon be needed, if not already.

    When I play heal tempest in WvW it often is a battle of decision-making because yeah, you can really burn through those skills quickly, so I try to feel it out -- if the squad/party can survive the next 10 seconds with me just autocasting, or blasting frost aura via water 4 for a small heal, I do this so I don't screw myself/the party over too badly when kitten hits the fan. Yet ... this is also why I just play scrapper instead haha - don't even have to worry about it as a scrapper, and you're basically a boon chrono if you're up against a group that inflicts a lot of condis.

    Tbh I kinda hope heal scrapper gets a little nerf. It's a bit too good, and tempest deserves a place in the meta again.

    Tyvm btw glad you enjoyed the weaver stuff :)

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  • Jski.6180Jski.6180 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Rev dose blob spike dmg better scorge dose blob dps dmg better and scraper / FB dose support better. Youtube videos proves only your good at editing seen that are comply unrelated to each other to make a good video and something look good. There not one class in the game that you cant do that to.

    See ELE forms and you will get my views.

  • Hm, coms dont give weavers any support. Weavers still outdps almost all of the squad. Weavers go down, squad goes down. Coms complain about too many kitten eles...

    hilarious.

  • Kirnale.5914Kirnale.5914 Member ✭✭✭

    I don't know about that video. Most of the time you had a choke, you outnumber your enemy or generally you play in a big group (GvG Tournament was 15vs15).
    I am not saying your bad, you are actually very good, but that video didn't show much about what limitations a weaver have or why people call it off as bad.

    Generally, weaver is a good dps, and in a normal public vs public it is the best DPS class. I can say that one for sure. But in a GvG case, only the biggest talents can keep up with a decent rev. They are too risky to use, that why most groups skip weaver. Most of your enemies will be playing with stealth, and restealth a lot, while having a high uptime for superspeed, protection coupled with good movement. They won't stand even a second in your MS. That's where "weaver is bad" is really coming from.

    Weavers have it's moment where it shines. In public I agree with you, it is quite OP I must say. But the smaller the scale, the stronger your enemies are, the less area limitations you have the more likely you will be outdpsed by revs. Not to mention, your skill level needs to be higher than any revs. An equal skilled rev will easily outdps equal skilled weaver. And on top of their damage, they also bring nice support, something we lack entirely besides a couple of ccs.

    OP did bring one solid argument. Retaliation is a problem for ele, and no other classes. If you play public for example, and the main troop is full and you are assigned to the range group, then good luck trying to do damage. Throw in a huge bomb, and the next thing you do is healing healing healing. This is not a problem in any zergs, but there are times you wish that your enemy doesn't get rewarded this much by doing nothing but buffing. Or sometimes you play off hours and have to defend without a zerg at all against a mass zerg with just a couple of randoms. Retaliation will also make you suffer there, and reduce your DPS by a good 50-60%, since you have to recover a lot. I play on a server that has been outnumbered all the time like that and I have always wished there was a way to bypass retaliation.

  • SoulSlavocracy.4902SoulSlavocracy.4902 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 10, 2019

    @Kirnale.5914 said:
    snip

    Well good points, man.

    On group size - this feels like a Thunderbolt vs Spitfire (WW2 planes) kind of debate. Lots of people say you can't utilize weaver in GvG settings or small groups, just like many Spitfire pilots saw the Thunderbolt as very limited in capability, but yet, you see folks like Otz just absolutely dominate in GvGs using core ele, conversely we saw pilots like R.S. Johnson utilize the heavy thunderbolts with such skill and good judgement that they were extremely formidable in the air --- despite so many veteran air pilots telling them they were going to be sitting ducks! I donno man. Maybe I just want to believe that if you're talented enough you can make weaver work in any situation. I think you can, though.

    I don't think that compilation I chose demonstrates how the weaver struggles very well either, but, I do have plenty of videos where I deal with struggles in a logical way and, ~80% of the time, come out of it alright, without any significant loss in DPS. About retaliation - this is a good example - I don't agree that you could lose 50-60% of your dps because of retal while playing with pugs/no commander/no support - often when I am in this situation all I need to do is step back, use ether renewal (bringing me to about 5000-6000 health), and then stay at 1200 range on the fringe of the battle where practically no one sees me. You can still do most of your usual dps while staying on the fringes, cause if you're attentive/ready to dodge you won't even get hit, by anything, usually.

    About chokes - they do help focus damage, and generally correlate to higher weaver DPS, but I would argue it's not as much as you imply. I don't really have a solid argument to make - I just don't think it's that important. I do quite well in open field fights - actually I love open field fights on weaver. If you make good use of burning retreat, adapt the rotation accordingly, and here's the big one - drop meteor where it makes sense for them to move, AS they're moving in that direction, or fake casting it where they can see you, cancel, then cast as they push, etc ... there are ways to drop meteors on competent GvG groups that people forget about when making critiques against weaver.

    Again - maybe it's just my bias, I want to believe that a talented player can make it work in every situation, because that's what it feels like, but I know I could be wrong.

    @Jski.6180 said:
    Rev dose blob spike dmg better scorge dose blob dps dmg better and scraper / FB dose support better. Youtube videos proves only your good at editing seen that are comply unrelated to each other to make a good video and something look good. There not one class in the game that you cant do that to.

    I will say the same thing I said in the other thread.
    Just because you think I'm cherry picking doesn't mean I'm cherry picking.
    This is what I do when I sign on to play the game, man. I don't know how else to say it to you. Not everyone is lying about their win rates.

    @VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618 said:
    Hm, coms dont give weavers any support. Weavers still outdps almost all of the squad. Weavers go down, squad goes down. Coms complain about too many kitten eles...

    hilarious.

    Yep!!

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  • Kirnale.5914Kirnale.5914 Member ✭✭✭

    Yes that's where the problem lies: Skill. It is possible, I can make it possible too on an average GvG.

    But seriously, if you need that much skill, then this class has balance issues. I played the heal scrapper and it took me only a day to stay alive as long as my weaver and doing the full support role it offers. Same for the rev on the damage side or the necro. Instant damage is also something most guilds are after, and weaver doesn't have that besides small burst, mainly because stealth->reveal->spike can win you a lot of fights.

    Image weaver on a rating of 5/5 being cellofrag / crann or other big talents. Then the big weavers are at 4/5, playing the class effectively while only struggling at higher tier play and your average pug at 1-3/5, who usually gets outdamaged (or same damage) by revs.
    That means that only the tier 1 player are qualified for hardcore GvG (including tournaments), while the 4/5 rating player is already a risky pick to take. And even the best needs to focus hard in order to survive well.
    In other words: This class isn't top tier so you have to close the gap with your personal skill. Most people won't bother with that, and they simply go with "better" builds to reach that level of play faster.

    I think weaver still deserved the rating of 4+, but it still lacks in order to get a full 5 like other GvG meta builds. They are insane in public fights, but requires insane skills in smaller scale GvG in order to be relevant.

  • len.7809len.7809 Member ✭✭

    @Kirnale.5914 said:
    But seriously, if you need that much skill, then this class has balance issues.

    that's it. While other classes can win with builds, ele needs top skills to win.
    Fun story unrelated to the thread:

    A friend of mine came across with a boonbeast, he wrote me in discord:

    there was a guy killing everyone in wvw dueling are - BOONBEAST! - anyways ICOULDNT GET HIM BELOW 40% WITH THIEF - KITE WITH SWORD FULLY HEALS!!!! - i reloged won him with druid then what? i inv him to party cause he kept chasing me for fight and im not interested in 15min more of that fully healing BS!!!!!! - SO GUESS WHAT I INV HIM TO PARTY- and HE dont k how to play like - how to inv ppl to party - how to whisp ppl who are enemis !!! - rotation!!!! - SO HE ASKED ME FOR TIPS AND SAID IM A GOOD PLAYER - IM STARTING THEN IM LIKE : WAIT HOW THE FOK YOU KILLED ALL THIS PPL???????????? - HE LIKE OH I SAW A VIDEO ON YOUTUBE AND I COPY WHAT I SAW AND I WIN -Censored Message
    have a blessed day:P

  • steki.1478steki.1478 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Dps staff ele is in a similar situation with daredevil, reaper or even berserker when it comes to usefulness. They are all relying on allies to buff and sustain them while also relying on enemies having slow reactions. The only reason why weaver is generally more "useful" is because of range. As soon as other classes meet requirements to be useful, they can easily outdps everyone in squad because their damage is almost instant, covers decent radius and it has a fairly low cooldown.

    Allies bad and enemies good - all of these are useless players on the map. The only thing that can save you are the choke points.

    Allies bad and enemies bad - enjoy your top dps on any of these.

    Allies good, but enemies bad - DD and zerker can easily be top dps, reaper lacks mobility to pick off running enemies (but it's more than capable of cleaving downs) while weaver cant even tag enemies because they die before any skill goes off.

    Both allies and enemies are very good - all mentioned classes are useless unless played by pros. Weaver however relies on enemy having 60+ people because if it's a smaller group, they can walk outside of your MS within first second. The only way to get around this is by stacking at least 5-10 weavers in which case 2-3 would have to be very strong while others act as zoning tool.

    If this core swap event showed something it's that ele has no way of buffing itself (mesmer and warr utilities can actually make you feel like a cannon not just glass, or at least help with setting up combos), its cooldowns are way too high (arcane shield on same cd as endure pain, mending has 5 sec less cd than glyph while having same heal amount, cleansing skills have same cd like invulns on other classes). On top of that there's something we all already know - weapon skills cast way too slowly and traits give effect 30% of the time.

    I don't personally think that weaver is weak in blobs (tempest is pretty solid tbh), it's just too much work for potentially good reward. It's like high risk - low reward with a chance of having very high reward, depending on who you play with and who you play against.

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  • SoulSlavocracy.4902SoulSlavocracy.4902 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 11, 2019

    @len.7809 said:

    @Kirnale.5914 said:
    But seriously, if you need that much skill, then this class has balance issues.

    that's it. While other classes can win with builds, ele needs top skills to win.
    Fun story unrelated to the thread:

    A friend of mine came across with a boonbeast, he wrote me in discord:

    there was a guy killing everyone in wvw dueling are - BOONBEAST! - anyways ICOULDNT GET HIM BELOW 40% WITH THIEF - KITE WITH SWORD FULLY HEALS!!!! - i reloged won him with druid then what? i inv him to party cause he kept chasing me for fight and im not interested in 15min more of that fully healing BS!!!!!! - SO GUESS WHAT I INV HIM TO PARTY- and HE dont k how to play like - how to inv ppl to party - how to whisp ppl who are enemis !!! - rotation!!!! - SO HE ASKED ME FOR TIPS AND SAID IM A GOOD PLAYER - IM STARTING THEN IM LIKE : WAIT HOW THE FOK YOU KILLED ALL THIS PPL???????????? - HE LIKE OH I SAW A VIDEO ON YOUTUBE AND I COPY WHAT I SAW AND I WIN -Censored Message
    have a blessed day:P

    LMAO

    @Kirnale.5914 said:
    Yes that's where the problem lies: Skill. It is possible, I can make it possible too on an average GvG.

    But seriously, if you need that much skill, then this class has balance issues. I played the heal scrapper and it took me only a day to stay alive as long as my weaver and doing the full support role it offers. Same for the rev on the damage side or the necro. Instant damage is also something most guilds are after, and weaver doesn't have that besides small burst, mainly because stealth->reveal->spike can win you a lot of fights.

    Image weaver on a rating of 5/5 being cellofrag / crann or other big talents. Then the big weavers are at 4/5, playing the class effectively while only struggling at higher tier play and your average pug at 1-3/5, who usually gets outdamaged (or same damage) by revs.
    That means that only the tier 1 player are qualified for hardcore GvG (including tournaments), while the 4/5 rating player is already a risky pick to take. And even the best needs to focus hard in order to survive well.
    In other words: This class isn't top tier so you have to close the gap with your personal skill. Most people won't bother with that, and they simply go with "better" builds to reach that level of play faster.

    I think weaver still deserved the rating of 4+, but it still lacks in order to get a full 5 like other GvG meta builds. They are insane in public fights, but requires insane skills in smaller scale GvG in order to be relevant.

    That's a great point. I'm kind of happy that there exists a niche for people who want to play hardmode tbh but I can't deny that it probably shouldn't be nearly as hardmode as it ended up being. You've definitely shifted my perspective a bit - way more than anyone else has been able to so far.

    @steki.1478 said:
    Dps staff ele is in a similar situation with daredevil, reaper or even berserker when it comes to usefulness. They are all relying on allies to buff and sustain them while also relying on enemies having slow reactions. The only reason why weaver is generally more "useful" is because of range. As soon as other classes meet requirements to be useful, they can easily outdps everyone in squad because their damage is almost instant, covers decent radius and it has a fairly low cooldown.

    Allies bad and enemies good - all of these are useless players on the map. The only thing that can save you are the choke points.

    Allies bad and enemies bad - enjoy your top dps on any of these.

    Allies good, but enemies bad - DD and zerker can easily be top dps, reaper lacks mobility to pick off running enemies (but it's more than capable of cleaving downs) while weaver cant even tag enemies because they die before any skill goes off.

    Both allies and enemies are very good - all mentioned classes are useless unless played by pros. Weaver however relies on enemy having 60+ people because if it's a smaller group, they can walk outside of your MS within first second. The only way to get around this is by stacking at least 5-10 weavers in which case 2-3 would have to be very strong while others act as zoning tool.

    If this core swap event showed something it's that ele has no way of buffing itself (mesmer and warr utilities can actually make you feel like a cannon not just glass, or at least help with setting up combos), its cooldowns are way too high (arcane shield on same cd as endure pain, mending has 5 sec less cd than glyph while having same heal amount, cleansing skills have same cd like invulns on other classes). On top of that there's something we all already know - weapon skills cast way too slowly and traits give effect 30% of the time.

    I don't personally think that weaver is weak in blobs (tempest is pretty solid tbh), it's just too much work for potentially good reward. It's like high risk - low reward with a chance of having very high reward, depending on who you play with and who you play against.

    This feels like a lot of conjecture. My experiences have been different. Allies bad/enemies good, allies bad/enemies bad, allies good/enemies bad, same result. 7k to 13k sustained DPS and at least 10-25% more than the revenant below me. I also can't see how tempest would be at all more solid than weaver, if that's what you meant. I don't have problems landing my meteor showers vs competent groups. I don't get out dps'd by zerker/reaper and I've played both of them quite well myself and, while I can out dps a lot of ppl playing them, I don't get the crazy numbers I get on weaver -- and have to put myself at greater risk by being in melee range all the time to do it. Could make the argument that I'm not very good at reaper/zerker but I've mained both necro and warrior at different points while playing this game so I donno ..

    | Solemn [PAL][shrd][wHo][DoM][BOZ] |
    | Wrath of God Staff Weaver Part II |
    | Fire Weaver Isn't Unfair You Just Need To Understand It |
    | Wrath of God Staff Weaver Part III |
    | Ex-Anvil Rock (RIP) |
    | NSP (main) | CD (alt) |

  • steki.1478steki.1478 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @SoulSlavocracy.4902 said:

    @len.7809 said:

    @Kirnale.5914 said:
    But seriously, if you need that much skill, then this class has balance issues.

    that's it. While other classes can win with builds, ele needs top skills to win.
    Fun story unrelated to the thread:

    A friend of mine came across with a boonbeast, he wrote me in discord:

    there was a guy killing everyone in wvw dueling are - BOONBEAST! - anyways ICOULDNT GET HIM BELOW 40% WITH THIEF - KITE WITH SWORD FULLY HEALS!!!! - i reloged won him with druid then what? i inv him to party cause he kept chasing me for fight and im not interested in 15min more of that fully healing BS!!!!!! - SO GUESS WHAT I INV HIM TO PARTY- and HE dont k how to play like - how to inv ppl to party - how to whisp ppl who are enemis !!! - rotation!!!! - SO HE ASKED ME FOR TIPS AND SAID IM A GOOD PLAYER - IM STARTING THEN IM LIKE : WAIT HOW THE FOK YOU KILLED ALL THIS PPL???????????? - HE LIKE OH I SAW A VIDEO ON YOUTUBE AND I COPY WHAT I SAW AND I WIN -Censored Message
    have a blessed day:P

    LMAO

    @Kirnale.5914 said:
    Yes that's where the problem lies: Skill. It is possible, I can make it possible too on an average GvG.

    But seriously, if you need that much skill, then this class has balance issues. I played the heal scrapper and it took me only a day to stay alive as long as my weaver and doing the full support role it offers. Same for the rev on the damage side or the necro. Instant damage is also something most guilds are after, and weaver doesn't have that besides small burst, mainly because stealth->reveal->spike can win you a lot of fights.

    Image weaver on a rating of 5/5 being cellofrag / crann or other big talents. Then the big weavers are at 4/5, playing the class effectively while only struggling at higher tier play and your average pug at 1-3/5, who usually gets outdamaged (or same damage) by revs.
    That means that only the tier 1 player are qualified for hardcore GvG (including tournaments), while the 4/5 rating player is already a risky pick to take. And even the best needs to focus hard in order to survive well.
    In other words: This class isn't top tier so you have to close the gap with your personal skill. Most people won't bother with that, and they simply go with "better" builds to reach that level of play faster.

    I think weaver still deserved the rating of 4+, but it still lacks in order to get a full 5 like other GvG meta builds. They are insane in public fights, but requires insane skills in smaller scale GvG in order to be relevant.

    That's a great point. I'm kind of happy that there exists a niche for people who want to play hardmode tbh but I can't deny that it probably shouldn't be nearly as hardmode as it ended up being. You've definitely shifted my perspective a bit - way more than anyone else has been able to so far.

    @steki.1478 said:
    Dps staff ele is in a similar situation with daredevil, reaper or even berserker when it comes to usefulness. They are all relying on allies to buff and sustain them while also relying on enemies having slow reactions. The only reason why weaver is generally more "useful" is because of range. As soon as other classes meet requirements to be useful, they can easily outdps everyone in squad because their damage is almost instant, covers decent radius and it has a fairly low cooldown.

    Allies bad and enemies good - all of these are useless players on the map. The only thing that can save you are the choke points.

    Allies bad and enemies bad - enjoy your top dps on any of these.

    Allies good, but enemies bad - DD and zerker can easily be top dps, reaper lacks mobility to pick off running enemies (but it's more than capable of cleaving downs) while weaver cant even tag enemies because they die before any skill goes off.

    Both allies and enemies are very good - all mentioned classes are useless unless played by pros. Weaver however relies on enemy having 60+ people because if it's a smaller group, they can walk outside of your MS within first second. The only way to get around this is by stacking at least 5-10 weavers in which case 2-3 would have to be very strong while others act as zoning tool.

    If this core swap event showed something it's that ele has no way of buffing itself (mesmer and warr utilities can actually make you feel like a cannon not just glass, or at least help with setting up combos), its cooldowns are way too high (arcane shield on same cd as endure pain, mending has 5 sec less cd than glyph while having same heal amount, cleansing skills have same cd like invulns on other classes). On top of that there's something we all already know - weapon skills cast way too slowly and traits give effect 30% of the time.

    I don't personally think that weaver is weak in blobs (tempest is pretty solid tbh), it's just too much work for potentially good reward. It's like high risk - low reward with a chance of having very high reward, depending on who you play with and who you play against.

    This feels like a lot of conjecture. My experiences have been different. Allies bad/enemies good, allies bad/enemies bad, allies good/enemies bad, same result. 7k to 13k sustained DPS and at least 10-25% more than the revenant below me. I also can't see how tempest would be at all more solid than weaver, if that's what you meant. I don't have problems landing my meteor showers vs competent groups. I don't get out dps'd by zerker/reaper and I've played both of them quite well myself and, while I can out dps a lot of ppl playing them, I don't get the crazy numbers I get on weaver -- and have to put myself at greater risk by being in melee range all the time to do it. Could make the argument that I'm not very good at reaper/zerker but I've mained both necro and warrior at different points while playing this game so I donno ..

    From watching your vids and hearing from other players who play on NA - players move too slowly and are generally slower with their combos.

    I've seen a few fights in your vids when you steamroll enemies and then chase them while being 30% above others in dps. I can assure you that on EU (most of the time) you're lucky if you get in top 15 because good revs and scourges can kill such group almost instantly. In fact it's scourges who are top in dps in situations like these.

    My guildie told me recently that he started playing weaver on NA (don't remember last time he played it on EU, but I could barely say he's good on it) and he's among top dps most of the time because everyone plays too passively and enemy just sits in your bomb for no reason. More often than not this happens in EU as well, but there's a few servers that can really make you question your ability to keep up with dps because they have very aggressive movement and bombs.

    Deso's favorite FROG
    Master of afk and kiting
    The God of Pips and Gud Deeps
    Froggo himself

  • solemn.9608solemn.9608 Member ✭✭

    @steki.1478 fair enough, I’ve never experienced EU.

    Won’t matter now anyway since Anet is going to nearly obliterate the usefulness of staff weaver/ele after this next patch.

    Going back to my full grieving scourge and full zerk rev.

  • Kirnale.5914Kirnale.5914 Member ✭✭✭

    It's really sad that they really have to nerf a build that is barely playable in GvG. Guess they really don't want players to play anything other than their meta builds.

  • steki.1478steki.1478 Member ✭✭✭✭

    If only people could realise that it's only nerf while camping fire, but big buff while in air attunement. It's not even a big nerf considering that weaver got a small buff and you don't need to run cantrip heal anymore.

    Deso's favorite FROG
    Master of afk and kiting
    The God of Pips and Gud Deeps
    Froggo himself

  • Dahir.4158Dahir.4158 Member ✭✭✭

    @steki.1478 said:
    If only people could realise that it's only nerf while camping fire, but big buff while in air attunement. It's not even a big nerf considering that weaver got a small buff and you don't need to run cantrip heal anymore.

    Glyph heal best heal

    Broski Supreme - Borsk Carry Effect

  • Agrios.9071Agrios.9071 Member
    edited July 12, 2019

    @steki.1478 said:
    If only people could realise that it's only nerf while camping fire, but big buff while in air attunement. It's not even a big nerf considering that weaver got a small buff and you don't need to run cantrip heal anymore.

    You are technically not wrong but currently for staff over 95% of the dmg is done by fire skills. All other attunements do not offer anything meaningful
    to use and would need a complete rework. Most of the Dual Skills are projectile based and all Staff auto attacks are also projectiles and apart of the
    staff fire auto attack they are all complete garbage.

  • Kirnale.5914Kirnale.5914 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 12, 2019

    -10% damage global damage while attuned to fire
    -150 power because we are going air instead of fire
    - 60 ferocity for Raging Storm
    +180 condition damage
    + 150 all round ferocity - 30 (compared to before) while attuned to air
    + 3% swiftness

    So it's -10% damage -150 power VS +3% damage +60 ferocity +180 condition damage unless I am missing something. Not to mention that the skills in air are worse than fire anyways.

    In my eyes it's a nerf for staff ele. Not to mention you need to double tune air in order to get elementals of rage, since your are not double tuning fire. They messed up the rotation entirely.

  • steki.1478steki.1478 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Agrios.9071 said:

    @steki.1478 said:
    If only people could realise that it's only nerf while camping fire, but big buff while in air attunement. It's not even a big nerf considering that weaver got a small buff and you don't need to run cantrip heal anymore.

    You are technically not wrong but currently for staff over 95% of the dmg is done by fire skills. All other attunements do not offer anything meaningful
    to use and would need a complete rework. Most of the Dual Skills are projectile based and all Staff auto attacks are also projectiles and apart of the
    staff fire auto attack they are all complete garbage.

    Fire skills that do damage over time, during which you can also camp air. I did this even before patch and the difference wasnt even noticeable compared to camping fire for most duration.

    Considering that none of the meta builds were touched, weaver position is pretty much the same.

    Deso's favorite FROG
    Master of afk and kiting
    The God of Pips and Gud Deeps
    Froggo himself

  • Well some might argue that it already didnt have a spot in the wvw meta. It isnt bad but when did you ever hear a com say
    "we really need some more weavers"?

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