Death in Guild Wars 2 — reviving. — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Death in Guild Wars 2 — reviving.

Antycypator.9874Antycypator.9874 Member ✭✭✭
edited July 10, 2019 in Lore

There is one thing I'm thinking about and I can't understand this. First time I was wondering about how the death works in game, was in core story if you took the Whisper's way to attack Orr.
Some characters can die. Permanently. OK.
But some characters can be REVIVED.
What is the think I don't understand? In the mission of invading the Orr, we have to revive a fallen NPC after their ship is destroyed. And then another NPC got shot in the back and just dies.
Do you remember that story mission at 60lvl in Claw Island? Sure you do. We have to REVIVE Deputy Mira. But... was she dead?
What is reviving? Do all those NPCs during events and story, if fallen, are DEAD, and we can just bring them back to life?
You know... if we can bring people to life, why we didin't just say "don't worry, Braham, let me just revive Eir. She will be fine".
NPCs can revive other fallen NPCs and players.

Commander, to ME!

Comments

  • derd.6413derd.6413 Member ✭✭✭✭

    in core story nobody get's revived from death, you help wounded or unconscious ppl get back on their feet

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  • Poormany.4507Poormany.4507 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 10, 2019

    I feel like reviving is like healing an injured or unconscious npc or player, while those that cannot be revived are permanently dead.

  • Antycypator.9874Antycypator.9874 Member ✭✭✭

    @Poormany.4507 said:
    I feel like reviving is like healing an injured or unconscious npc or player, while those that cannot be revived are permanently dead.

    It is not clear if "fallen allies" are dead or only injured (but probably they should be taken as injured and unconscious). If they're injured, they could be in downed state, but only thing that can be downed, is player character and specific enemies (e.g. Tarnished Traitor or Legendary Bandit Executioner).

    Commander, to ME!

  • There has been a thread about this, and what others said are more or less the same.

    To sum it up, if you can revive someone, they were just sleeping with eyes open. If you can't, or they disappear into thin air, may Grenth be kind to their souls.

    Then there's a time you fall into a lava and get roasted. I imagine reviving does prevent you from becoming a crispy chicken, but it will take longer because you're literally on fire.

    Porting to nearest wp are done either by automated bs plot tool, or if you want me to explain, something/someone brings you back there.

    I say this because in the lore, you don't get resurrected; only the commander did some special quest to get back, and even then it was a child's luck. So if you "die" in the openworld, you're not really dead, more like someone knocks you so hard you fall cold.

  • Kalavier.1097Kalavier.1097 Member ✭✭✭

    There is gameplay and lore seperation.

    Easiest way to view it is this. "Downed" state means you are wounded, on the floor but you can still actually fight, though you are extremely limited in what you can do. The fully "dead" state to be revived from is you got wounded and passed out, or got knocked out and are lying there unconscious.

    Hey, sometimes a person is lying on the ground and is just wounded and can be woken up/treated and saved. Sometimes they are lying on the ground and are dead.

  • SinisterSlay.6973SinisterSlay.6973 Member ✭✭✭

    It's simple, if you die in a scripted event, you die forever and are forgotten immediately, sometimes literally vaprizing. If you die by a random mook, you can be revived. If you die in a cut scene you will die but get references about your death for at least 1 more story.
    Also unique to GW2. If you have a name, your probably going to die. If you are a red shirt, you might just make it.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 10, 2019

    "Reviving" is not bringing someone back to life. Mechanically, the states are called "downed" and "defeated", this was done for the lore. Players technically never die (well, except in that one scripted instance), but get knocked unconscious; NPCs that can be revived aren't dead, but unconscious.

    Downed = bleeding out but conscious, revivable
    Defeated = unconscious, revivable
    Dead = dead, not revivable but can be resurrected

    Of course, the issue is, resurrection magic has been lost / stopped working in the past 250 years, so can't bring back the dead except in very unique circumstances such as that one scripted instance for the PC or Aurene.

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  • Leo.3428Leo.3428 Member ✭✭

    @SinisterSlay.6973 said:
    It's simple, if you die in a scripted event, you die forever and are forgotten immediately, sometimes literally vaprizing. If you die by a random mook, you can be revived. If you die in a cut scene you will die but get references about your death for at least 1 more story.
    Also unique to GW2. If you have a name, your probably going to die. If you are a red shirt, you might just make it.

    LOL!

    There is also the special case of the hostile NPCs, bosses with a famous name and anonymous minions alike, who die and can't be revived, but do respawn every time.

  • Hannelore.8153Hannelore.8153 Member ✭✭✭

    As others have said, reviving is just healing. Its basically a heal skill that is automatically available to anyone just like their #6 skill, and some classes have much more powerful methods of reviving (e.g a Warrior's warbanner), but it more or less works the same way as reviving someone in real life; it doesn't work if the damage is too severe or if they've already been dead so long that they have brain damage.

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  • crepuscular.9047crepuscular.9047 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    Dead = dead, not revivable but can be resurrected

    Of course, the issue is, resurrection magic has been lost / stopped working in the past 250 years, so can't bring back the dead except in very unique circumstances such as that one scripted instance for the PC or Aurene.

    are those kitten monks still on strike in THK after all these years?!?!?! jeeezzzz

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    ... til Aurene ate him for dessert 😭
  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @crepuscular.9047 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    Dead = dead, not revivable but can be resurrected

    Of course, the issue is, resurrection magic has been lost / stopped working in the past 250 years, so can't bring back the dead except in very unique circumstances such as that one scripted instance for the PC or Aurene.

    are those kitten monks still on strike in THK after all these years?!?!?! jeeezzzz

    Nah, this time it's Grenth who's on strike. He got tired of people bashing the gods as being useless so he revoked resurrection rights.

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  • crepuscular.9047crepuscular.9047 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 11, 2019

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @crepuscular.9047 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    Dead = dead, not revivable but can be resurrected

    Of course, the issue is, resurrection magic has been lost / stopped working in the past 250 years, so can't bring back the dead except in very unique circumstances such as that one scripted instance for the PC or Aurene.

    are those kitten monks still on strike in THK after all these years?!?!?! jeeezzzz

    Nah, this time it's Grenth who's on strike. He got tired of people bashing the gods as being useless so he revoked resurrection rights.

    pretty sure Grenth wasn't salty, mum was angry @ his naughtiness and locked him up

    [RIP Fashion Wars 2005-2018]     [TTS] [KA] [SI]     [RIP Fashion Wars 2005-2018]
    Praise the Inevitable Eternal Transcendent King Palawa Ignacious Joko, the Beloved and Feared Undying Eternal Monarch of All !!!
    ... til Aurene ate him for dessert 😭
  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @crepuscular.9047 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @crepuscular.9047 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    Dead = dead, not revivable but can be resurrected

    Of course, the issue is, resurrection magic has been lost / stopped working in the past 250 years, so can't bring back the dead except in very unique circumstances such as that one scripted instance for the PC or Aurene.

    are those kitten monks still on strike in THK after all these years?!?!?! jeeezzzz

    Nah, this time it's Grenth who's on strike. He got tired of people bashing the gods as being useless so he revoked resurrection rights.

    pretty sure Grenth wasn't salty, mum was angry @ his naughtiness and locked him up

    Grenth wasn't locked up.

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  • derd.6413derd.6413 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @crepuscular.9047 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @crepuscular.9047 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    Dead = dead, not revivable but can be resurrected

    Of course, the issue is, resurrection magic has been lost / stopped working in the past 250 years, so can't bring back the dead except in very unique circumstances such as that one scripted instance for the PC or Aurene.

    are those kitten monks still on strike in THK after all these years?!?!?! jeeezzzz

    Nah, this time it's Grenth who's on strike. He got tired of people bashing the gods as being useless so he revoked resurrection rights.

    pretty sure Grenth wasn't salty, mum was angry @ his naughtiness and locked him up

    you might be thinking of dhuum there

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  • mercury ranique.2170mercury ranique.2170 Member ✭✭✭✭

    There is an issue with cheating death and storytelling. This is almost always handled in a way that breaks the story and seems inconsistent. GW2 offers very few remarks why some deaths are permament and others are not. I do not think that the difference between defeated and death is canon (Or I must have missed a source explaining it). It is a plausable explaination. You can also look at other stories to find solutions to this problem. A strong one is Dr. Who. The doctor is a timetraveller and can simply go back in time to change the events. However, there are events with a fixed point in time. It has to be that way. No matter what you do, and how often you revert it, is simply will happen. It is nearly impossible to cheat this and only can happen if it is allowed by the author

    In GW2 we do not have a real mechanic explaining it in detail, but there are fixed points in time. The character has to die for the purpose of telling the story. Sieran, Tybalt, Forgal are examples for this. They need to die to make place for Trahearne, someone who is more neutral to acompany the PC so they can later form the pact. There are other ways to do so, but this is the best dramatic way to do so and make sure that your old friend is really gone.
    There are ways to cheat death. The PC did it after being killed by Balthazar and Aurene did it. the methods differ.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 11, 2019

    @mercury ranique.2170 said:
    GW2 offers very few remarks why some deaths are permament and others are not. I do not think that the difference between defeated and death is canon (Or I must have missed a source explaining it).

    It is canon. This was told years back - around 2010 - in an interview with Jeff Grubb. I guess in current ArenaNet usage, that would make it "psuedo-canon" or "canon until stated otherwise". But it was told to us as to why the states are called "downed" and "defeated" not "downed" and "dead". Either way, there's only two canon deaths that were not permanent: the Commander's in PoF, and Aurene's in S4.

    Of course there was this guy who died in the human PS but unexplainably survived. We literally (dictionary literally) have to kill him to kill Zamon, but he's alive and well in HoT. So I guess that's three canon deaths that were not permanent, but one death being retconned out no doubt due to ArenaNet devs not paying close attention.

    There was almost another - Gaheron Baelfire - but we prevented that resurrection.

    GW1, on the other hand, had mechanical deaths that were deaths in lore too, with resurrection spells mentioned here and there throughout the story. But for some reason, Rurik, Saidra, Togo, and Gadd died a permanent, non-resurrectable death.

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  • crepuscular.9047crepuscular.9047 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @derd.6413 said:

    @crepuscular.9047 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @crepuscular.9047 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    Dead = dead, not revivable but can be resurrected

    Of course, the issue is, resurrection magic has been lost / stopped working in the past 250 years, so can't bring back the dead except in very unique circumstances such as that one scripted instance for the PC or Aurene.

    are those kitten monks still on strike in THK after all these years?!?!?! jeeezzzz

    Nah, this time it's Grenth who's on strike. He got tired of people bashing the gods as being useless so he revoked resurrection rights.

    pretty sure Grenth wasn't salty, mum was angry @ his naughtiness and locked him up

    you might be thinking of dhuum there

    ??? Dwayna is also Dhuum's mummy? since when???

    [RIP Fashion Wars 2005-2018]     [TTS] [KA] [SI]     [RIP Fashion Wars 2005-2018]
    Praise the Inevitable Eternal Transcendent King Palawa Ignacious Joko, the Beloved and Feared Undying Eternal Monarch of All !!!
    ... til Aurene ate him for dessert 😭
  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @crepuscular.9047 said:

    @derd.6413 said:

    @crepuscular.9047 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @crepuscular.9047 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    Dead = dead, not revivable but can be resurrected

    Of course, the issue is, resurrection magic has been lost / stopped working in the past 250 years, so can't bring back the dead except in very unique circumstances such as that one scripted instance for the PC or Aurene.

    are those kitten monks still on strike in THK after all these years?!?!?! jeeezzzz

    Nah, this time it's Grenth who's on strike. He got tired of people bashing the gods as being useless so he revoked resurrection rights.

    pretty sure Grenth wasn't salty, mum was angry @ his naughtiness and locked him up

    you might be thinking of dhuum there

    ??? Dwayna is also Dhuum's mummy? since when???

    She isn't. But Dhuum is the god of death who was imprisoned. Grenth was never locked up.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Kalavier.1097Kalavier.1097 Member ✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @mercury ranique.2170 said:
    GW2 offers very few remarks why some deaths are permament and others are not. I do not think that the difference between defeated and death is canon (Or I must have missed a source explaining it).

    It is canon. This was told years back - around 2010 - in an interview with Jeff Grubb. I guess in current ArenaNet usage, that would make it "psuedo-canon" or "canon until stated otherwise". But it was told to us as to why the states are called "downed" and "defeated" not "downed" and "dead". Either way, there's only two canon deaths that were not permanent: the Commander's in PoF, and Aurene's in S4.

    Of course there was this guy who died in the human PS but unexplainably survived. We literally (dictionary literally) have to kill him to kill Zamon, but he's alive and well in HoT. So I guess that's three canon deaths that were not permanent, but one death being retconned out no doubt due to ArenaNet devs not paying close attention.

    There was almost another - Gaheron Baelfire - but we prevented that resurrection.

    GW1, on the other hand, had mechanical deaths that were deaths in lore too, with resurrection spells mentioned here and there throughout the story. But for some reason, Rurik, Saidra, Togo, and Gadd died a permanent, non-resurrectable death.

    Unless Zamon is considered lore-wise to have been killed before Eitel was maybe?

    But yeah, just think of it as finishing a fight and seeing a bunch of people laying all over on the floor. Some may be dead, others may be wounded and can be healed.

  • crepuscular.9047crepuscular.9047 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 12, 2019

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @crepuscular.9047 said:

    @derd.6413 said:

    @crepuscular.9047 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @crepuscular.9047 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    Dead = dead, not revivable but can be resurrected

    Of course, the issue is, resurrection magic has been lost / stopped working in the past 250 years, so can't bring back the dead except in very unique circumstances such as that one scripted instance for the PC or Aurene.

    are those kitten monks still on strike in THK after all these years?!?!?! jeeezzzz

    Nah, this time it's Grenth who's on strike. He got tired of people bashing the gods as being useless so he revoked resurrection rights.

    pretty sure Grenth wasn't salty, mum was angry @ his naughtiness and locked him up

    you might be thinking of dhuum there

    ??? Dwayna is also Dhuum's mummy? since when???

    She isn't. But Dhuum is the god of death who was imprisoned. Grenth was never locked up.

    *face palm* some people in the forum clearly does not have any sense of humor

    [RIP Fashion Wars 2005-2018]     [TTS] [KA] [SI]     [RIP Fashion Wars 2005-2018]
    Praise the Inevitable Eternal Transcendent King Palawa Ignacious Joko, the Beloved and Feared Undying Eternal Monarch of All !!!
    ... til Aurene ate him for dessert 😭
  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 12, 2019

    @Kalavier.1097 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @mercury ranique.2170 said:
    GW2 offers very few remarks why some deaths are permament and others are not. I do not think that the difference between defeated and death is canon (Or I must have missed a source explaining it).

    It is canon. This was told years back - around 2010 - in an interview with Jeff Grubb. I guess in current ArenaNet usage, that would make it "psuedo-canon" or "canon until stated otherwise". But it was told to us as to why the states are called "downed" and "defeated" not "downed" and "dead". Either way, there's only two canon deaths that were not permanent: the Commander's in PoF, and Aurene's in S4.

    Of course there was this guy who died in the human PS but unexplainably survived. We literally (dictionary literally) have to kill him to kill Zamon, but he's alive and well in HoT. So I guess that's three canon deaths that were not permanent, but one death being retconned out no doubt due to ArenaNet devs not paying close attention.

    There was almost another - Gaheron Baelfire - but we prevented that resurrection.

    GW1, on the other hand, had mechanical deaths that were deaths in lore too, with resurrection spells mentioned here and there throughout the story. But for some reason, Rurik, Saidra, Togo, and Gadd died a permanent, non-resurrectable death.

    Unless Zamon is considered lore-wise to have been killed before Eitel was maybe?

    But yeah, just think of it as finishing a fight and seeing a bunch of people laying all over on the floor. Some may be dead, others may be wounded and can be healed.

    You cannot kill Zamon before Eitel. If you bring Zamon down low enough before killing Eitel, he goes invulnerable and gets knocked down. Then you have to finish Eitel off, after which Zamon stands up for the last 10% of his health (or so).

    EDIT: Just remembered another NPC who dies but miraculously returns alive: Morning, who dies - even in dialogue - during Season 2.

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  • derd.6413derd.6413 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @crepuscular.9047 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @crepuscular.9047 said:

    @derd.6413 said:

    @crepuscular.9047 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @crepuscular.9047 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    Dead = dead, not revivable but can be resurrected

    Of course, the issue is, resurrection magic has been lost / stopped working in the past 250 years, so can't bring back the dead except in very unique circumstances such as that one scripted instance for the PC or Aurene.

    are those kitten monks still on strike in THK after all these years?!?!?! jeeezzzz

    Nah, this time it's Grenth who's on strike. He got tired of people bashing the gods as being useless so he revoked resurrection rights.

    pretty sure Grenth wasn't salty, mum was angry @ his naughtiness and locked him up

    you might be thinking of dhuum there

    ??? Dwayna is also Dhuum's mummy? since when???

    She isn't. But Dhuum is the god of death who was imprisoned. Grenth was never locked up.

    *face palm* some people in the forum clearly does not have any sense of humor

    it's difficult to tell the difference between sarcasm and standard forum "intellect"

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  • mercury ranique.2170mercury ranique.2170 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @mercury ranique.2170 said:
    GW2 offers very few remarks why some deaths are permament and others are not. I do not think that the difference between defeated and death is canon (Or I must have missed a source explaining it).

    It is canon. This was told years back - around 2010 - in an interview with Jeff Grubb. I guess in current ArenaNet usage, that would make it "psuedo-canon" or "canon until stated otherwise". But it was told to us as to why the states are called "downed" and "defeated" not "downed" and "dead". Either way, there's only two canon deaths that were not permanent: the Commander's in PoF, and Aurene's in S4.

    Of course there was this guy who died in the human PS but unexplainably survived. We literally (dictionary literally) have to kill him to kill Zamon, but he's alive and well in HoT. So I guess that's three canon deaths that were not permanent, but one death being retconned out no doubt due to ArenaNet devs not paying close attention.

    There was almost another - Gaheron Baelfire - but we prevented that resurrection.

    GW1, on the other hand, had mechanical deaths that were deaths in lore too, with resurrection spells mentioned here and there throughout the story. But for some reason, Rurik, Saidra, Togo, and Gadd died a permanent, non-resurrectable death.

    I think your terms psuedo-canon or "cannon untill stated otherwise" are understandable, but also a bit harsh.
    There are several levels of canon. None are set into stone. Canon can and should be changed if the story requires it. Specially canon that is made to bridge the gap between game mechanic and lore.

    The first level of canon is that which is in game. This is the hardest form and must be considered a fact. If changed, the story should explain why. A good example is Aurene. Between All or nothing and war eternal, Aurene was dead. It was canon (atleast to us players). war eternal changed this, but it was explained in detail in the story.

    The second level of canon are official publications outside the game. A few examples are the ecology of the Charr, Edge of Destiny, What Scarlet saw, and the requims between all or nothing and war eternal.

    The third level are unofficial publications by Arenanet employees. These can be interviews, forum/reddit chats and conference talks. The level of canon in these are depending on two things.
    1: how well it is documented
    2: how well it is rememberd
    You are a walking lore encyclopedia, but this is not true for most players. So what is canon for you cause you remember it, is not even existing for most players. We know much proof of this lore is lost, specially if it is older. Several websites and sources recording it has been shut down over time to various reasons. This means the content is lesser known to us.

    the main question is how well it is known by Arenanet. We assume they have somekind of lore-bible in a vault containing all bits and pieces of lore that are important. But how big it is and how well documented it is is unknown. They might have well got nothing and just use the wiki as well. We simply do not know. So to me, the last category can hardly be called canon in the first place. I do believe that Arenanet writers have freedom to talk in the third category and talk about lore without being chained to what is or might come in the future (which is what canon is). A requirement is that it is not set canon in the first two categories. This makes it more like semi-fan fiction then any kind of canon.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @mercury ranique.2170 said:
    I think your terms psuedo-canon or "cannon untill stated otherwise" are understandable, but also a bit harsh.

    Those were more the devs' words, which I never liked.

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  • sokeenoppa.5384sokeenoppa.5384 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 15, 2019

    Reviving Works same way like in real Life. Sometimes resuscitation saves human from death and sometimes it won't.

    I'll have two number 9s, a number 9 large, a number 6 with extra dip, a number 7, two number 45s, one with cheese, and a large soda.

  • @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @mercury ranique.2170 said:
    GW2 offers very few remarks why some deaths are permament and others are not. I do not think that the difference between defeated and death is canon (Or I must have missed a source explaining it).

    It is canon. This was told years back - around 2010 - in an interview with Jeff Grubb. I guess in current ArenaNet usage, that would make it "psuedo-canon" or "canon until stated otherwise". But it was told to us as to why the states are called "downed" and "defeated" not "downed" and "dead". Either way, there's only two canon deaths that were not permanent: the Commander's in PoF, and Aurene's in S4.

    Of course there was this guy who died in the human PS but unexplainably survived. We literally (dictionary literally) have to kill him to kill Zamon, but he's alive and well in HoT. So I guess that's three canon deaths that were not permanent, but one death being retconned out no doubt due to ArenaNet devs not paying close attention.

    There was almost another - Gaheron Baelfire - but we prevented that resurrection.

    GW1, on the other hand, had mechanical deaths that were deaths in lore too, with resurrection spells mentioned here and there throughout the story. But for some reason, Rurik, Saidra, Togo, and Gadd died a permanent, non-resurrectable death.

    On death in GW1 i always assumed if the death was brutal e.g, Ruirk got his head chopped off, Togo was used in a ritual, and Saidra i assume was ripped apart inside and out by agony, that it wasn't easy to rez or even do able if the body was damaged to much. I know for story reasons they had to die. If i remember right blood stones also prevent the soul from reaching back to the body, though that makes me think if it wasn't retcon due to the Lich being seen later.

  • Trise.2865Trise.2865 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 19, 2019

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Kalavier.1097 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @mercury ranique.2170 said:
    GW2 offers very few remarks why some deaths are permament and others are not. I do not think that the difference between defeated and death is canon (Or I must have missed a source explaining it).

    It is canon. This was told years back - around 2010 - in an interview with Jeff Grubb. I guess in current ArenaNet usage, that would make it "psuedo-canon" or "canon until stated otherwise". But it was told to us as to why the states are called "downed" and "defeated" not "downed" and "dead". Either way, there's only two canon deaths that were not permanent: the Commander's in PoF, and Aurene's in S4.

    Of course there was this guy who died in the human PS but unexplainably survived. We literally (dictionary literally) have to kill him to kill Zamon, but he's alive and well in HoT. So I guess that's three canon deaths that were not permanent, but one death being retconned out no doubt due to ArenaNet devs not paying close attention.

    There was almost another - Gaheron Baelfire - but we prevented that resurrection.

    GW1, on the other hand, had mechanical deaths that were deaths in lore too, with resurrection spells mentioned here and there throughout the story. But for some reason, Rurik, Saidra, Togo, and Gadd died a permanent, non-resurrectable death.

    Unless Zamon is considered lore-wise to have been killed before Eitel was maybe?

    But yeah, just think of it as finishing a fight and seeing a bunch of people laying all over on the floor. Some may be dead, others may be wounded and can be healed.

    You cannot kill Zamon before Eitel. If you bring Zamon down low enough before killing Eitel, he goes invulnerable and gets knocked down. Then you have to finish Eitel off, after which Zamon stands up for the last 10% of his health (or so).

    EDIT: Just remembered another NPC who dies but miraculously returns alive: Morning, who dies - even in dialogue - during Season 2.

    Just because you have to defeat Eitel first doesn't mean you killed him, remember the trial is "by combat", not "to the death". Interestingly enough, it is never explicitly stated you killed Zamon either, only that he died. That statement comes from Anise, the spymaster of Kryta, known for her deceptions, and maybe the second most powerful Mesmer in the world, next to Jennah herself. (... and who never checked the bodies. In fact, unless you choose her as your Second, she doesn't interact with them at all! how could she know whether or not Zamon was dead and not simply defeated?) Of course, the obvious assumption is that you beat Zamon to death along with his second, because you attacked them and they went down. It's so obvious that nobody would think to question it, which makes it easy for someone like Anise to intervene with her abilities and either a) kill him herself, for whatever reason, or b) recover and interrogate the "dead" minister before killing him. But maybe that gets too deep into "tinfoil hat" territory...

    Morning is even easier to explain: It's not the same "Morning". Sure, she looks the same and says some of the same lines (because she has the same job), but other than that, there is nothing indicating this Morning is the same girl who died. Of course, nobody mentions she isn't the same girl either, but...

    If we want ANet to step up their game, then we must step up ours.

  • Kalavier.1097Kalavier.1097 Member ✭✭✭

    @Trise.2865 said:
    Just because you have to defeat Eitel first doesn't mean you killed him, remember the trial is "by combat", not "to the death". Interestingly enough, it is never explicitly stated you killed Zamon either, only that he died. That statement comes from Anise, the spymaster of Kryta, known for her deceptions, and maybe the second most powerful Mesmer in the world, next to Jennah herself. (... and who never checked the bodies. In fact, unless you choose her as your Second, she doesn't interact with them at all! how could she know whether or not Zamon was dead and not simply defeated?) Of course, the obvious assumption is that you beat Zamon to death along with his second, because you attacked them and they went down. It's so obvious that nobody would think to question it, which makes it easy for someone like Anise to intervene with her abilities and either a) kill him herself, for whatever reason, or b) recover and interrogate the "dead" minister before killing him. But maybe that gets too deep into "tinfoil hat" territory...

    Morning is even easier to explain: It's not the same "Morning". Sure, she looks the same and says some of the same lines (because she has the same job), but other than that, there is nothing indicating this Morning is the same girl who died. Of course, nobody mentions she isn't the same girl either, but...

    Trial by combat, in this case is literally to the death. The way it ends is by Zamon, or the PC being dead, then and there.

    It's literally "If Zamon wins, he is innocent and cannot be tried for this specific crime again. If PC wins, Zamon was guilty." If Zamon wins, PC is dead. if PC wins, Zamon is dead. Anise does explicitly bring up the fact that Caudecus is the one who would know about the ancient law (Where Zamon had shown zero inclination to researching it), and thus likely used it as a way to immediately close up all loose ends regarding this. If Zamon had actually won (probably used the Norn to try to rig the fight in a way), it's case closed and legally Anise and Jennah cannot do a single thing about it, and have to close all investigations. If PC won, Zamon is declared guilty and the investigation and case is closed as well, plus Zamon is dead and thus cannot be questioned any further.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Trise.2865 said:
    Just because you have to defeat Eitel first doesn't mean you killed him, remember the trial is "by combat", not "to the death". Interestingly enough, it is never explicitly stated you killed Zamon either, only that he died.

    When we fight them, we bring their health to 0, and they have a death animation. When the game wants to show that NPCs get defeated by not killed, they are either reviveable (if allied), or kept at ~5% health and use the knocked down or sleeping animations (and made allied / invulnerable). Except for Eitel, I've never seen a case other than showing that.

    Plus, traditionally, trial by combat is to the death.

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