Soulbeast Feedback - Stance Skills — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Soulbeast Feedback - Stance Skills

ProtoMarcus.7649ProtoMarcus.7649 Member ✭✭✭
edited October 6, 2017 in Ranger

This thread follows my Soulbeast Dagger feedback and my Soulbeast Beast Abilities feedback - commentary and feedback on current state of Soulbeast mechanics, skills, anything. Today's subject are the Stance Skills

SOULBEAST FEEDBACK - STANCE SKILLS

The Soulbeast stances all have specific themes, much like the pet archetypes. Out of 6 stances, I'd say 2 perform adequately while 2 are okay but could see some work, and the last 2 are just not interesting enough to see a place on the skill bar.

Trait Commentary

The trait affecting stances directly is Leader of the Pack - it shares the stance effect at a reduced duration and the boons at full duration. It's the only effect, and it is a grandmaster trait. We have no stance enhancing effect, whether in terms of longer duration or lower cooldown - One of the two would make the trait very interesting

SUGGESTION:

  • Reduce stance cooldown by 5% per affected ally.

This would really push and reward the support and group aspect, the cooldown reduction is more potent if you're in groups. Of course there's the 5 ally limit - so a potential 25% cooldown reduction. Another suggestion was to see stances grant 2s Quickness to self and allies - would synergize with other traits and offer great utility

Now let's move on to the skills themselves


BEAR STANCE

The healing stance.

This skill is alright - it is very situational, so I wouldn't recommend using it in condition-free situations, as it greatly loses its efficiency. Like all stances, no way to reduce the cooldown, so for some, that can be annoying. The condition cleanse effect is per pulse, so the player is still vulnerable to conditions while it is in effect. The healing numbers are good - with zero healing power, you can potentially heal up to 8227 health, but remember - conditions still tick in that time so the effective recovery can be much lower.

SUGGESTION:

  • Apply 2s resistance on skill use
  • Augment the base healing for the skill activation by 10%

The reasoning behind this is that again, we are still rather vulnerable while the stance is pulsing - with the current condition heavy meta, you can get a lot of damage in 4s. Not to mention this skill doesn't seem to prioritise any conditions, so while it cleanses movement impeding conditions, the damaging conditions still tick. The resistance would mitigate some of that damage, and the higher base healing numbers would give a little boost both when cleansing, or for using the skill without being affected by conditions. Also adding a boon to this stance would somewhat normalise it with the other stances - all other stances (save for the elite, we'll explore that one later) offer at least one boon.


GRIFFON STANCE

The evasion stance.

Oh boy. On paper, and thematically, it is an interesting idea. But oh my goodness, the cooldown vs effect ratio is horrible. 45 seconds cooldown (and again, no trait to lower the cooldown) for a minimal effect? Something is really wrong here. The dodges this stance grants are less than 3(?) so on a 45 seconds cooldown, and for the minimal effect it grants, I highly doubt people actually use that skill. Again, thematically, it is interesting, and I want to keep the theme, but please, tweaks the numbers. Greatly.

SUGGESTION:

  • Reduce the cooldown from 45s to 30s (33% decrease)
  • Make this skill a stun breaker
  • In PVE, give 50 endurance instead of 25.
  • Make the stance last 10s instead of 8s

Reasoning is pretty simple - it is HIGHLY UNDERPERFORMING. Making it a stun break sounds absolutely natural and adds active utility. The change from 25 to 50 endurance is to guarantee at least one dodge, and the stance duration from 8s to 10s is not just for the player, but also for allies, if traited with Leader of the Pack, as with 4s, it is barely 1 new dodge (and about 1 might stack). The cooldown reduction is just... mandatory.


VULTURE STANCE

The condition stance.

This one is in an okay spot, BUT it does lack a little effect that would greatly fit its theme (conditions) and give it a unique identity

SUGGESTION:

  • Increase the duration of conditions you apply while in this stance. Duration increase: 33%

This would be like the twin to Moa Stance - where moa is about boons, this one is about conditions. Moa stance grants 66% boon duration, Vulture stance would grant 33% condition duration. It would greatly complement any condition builds and add something unique and very useful for condi builds to yourself and to allies when traited. The might and poison are fine, I'd like to perhaps suggest a 2s increase to both the stance duration and the might and poison durations? From 6s to 8s.


DOLYAK STANCE

The movement stance.

This one is in a good spot. The only other skill that grants stability to rangers... Still sad about that. The boons are great, stability stacks are fine, a bit bummed it doesn't pulse though, like warrior's Balanced Stance but we have a good cooldown and the stance effect is really nice.

SUGGESTION:

  • None

MOA STANCE

The boon stance.

I love it. It's in a perfect spot - proper balance of cooldown, duration, effect and utility. I honestly don't see anything to change to make it viable or useful. It covers its theme and role perfectly - enhance boons (and grant some). Let's also not forget that it affects its own boons itself, so it actually grants 5s protection and 10s fury and swiftness.

SUGGESTION:

  • Congratulate whoever designed this stance

The reasoning behind this is that the guy that designed it did a good job, ha! :D


ONE WOLF PACK (AKA Wolf Pack Stance, maybe)

The DPS stance.

This one is interesting, but lacks something - other elite skills are more interesting and again, I'll say it, this one lacks utility. Back when this stance was announced, many people (myself included) thought the description meant that it would 'double' the hit you made - so double maul or double point blank shot etc - and while interesting that would be, it would also be pretty broken, even with higher CD and higher interval rate. My suggestion is simple, and would also synergise with core ranger and soulbeast itself

SUGGESTION:

  • Grant 0.5s quickness on successful hits per interval

Just think about it. For 3s. Done? Lemme explain the reasoning - it's the DPS stance, and quickness is one of the best boon for DPS. It is also not granted freely - you need to perform successful hits to get the quickness. To the player, that's a potential 8s quickness if all strikes hit, but for allies, when stances are traited, it's a potential 4s quickness, which is very much in line with Guardian's elite shout "Feel my Wrath!" (which also grants fury, is traitable for lower cooldown and has a base cooldown of 45s). It would also synergize with Essence of Speed.

If deemed too powerful, due to potential 8s quickness or even up to 12s due to Essence of Speed, the effect could be changed to simply
  • Grant 4s of quickness on skill use

It would only grant the quickness when the skill is cast, not on succesful strikes - and when traited, it would still be the full 4s quickness as the stance share trait doesn't reduce boon durations, but stance durations only.
4s quickness on 60s cooldown is extremely fair.

An alternate suggestion that would also benefit condition builds would be to

  • Apply 1 stack of 3 seconds of vulnerability on succesful strikes
    As it currently is, it doesn't really compliment condition builds but with extra vulnerability on enemies enhances both power and condi damage.

I was quite surprised to see no quickness on any of the stances, esp since there are specific traits for that boon. I think the stances have good themes/goals, but most really need tweaks to be viable over other skills.


How would you tweak the stances? Are you happy with their current iterations? I'd like to hear your comments and reasoning.


See also:

Marcus Forrest - Celestial Soulbeast - Darkhaven

Soulbeast Feedback >> Dagger Skills / Beast Abilities / Stance Skills

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Comments

  • Skuzz.6580Skuzz.6580 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 6, 2017

    One Wolf Pack should simply apply a bleeding stack on each hit. Very thematic, and fits the 'hybrid' style of SoulBeast.

    Griffon Stance should cleanse a condi on dodge and have its cooldown reduced to 35seconds

    I like your suggestion of Vulture Stance and the Resistance for Bear stance aswell (healing increase not needed necessarily)

  • Wondrouswall.7169Wondrouswall.7169 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 6, 2017

    What I would tweak on stances:

    • Stance effects applied to the Pet by default.
    • Leader of the Pack shared duration increased to 100%.

    Griffon Stance

    • Duration reduced from 8s to 4s.
    • Stance effect: Gain 20 endurance and 2 might (8s) per second.
    • Cooldown reduced from 45s to 35s.
    • Endurance gain is able to stack with normal endurance regeneration and vigor. Stance duration is reduced and endurance gain is condensed.
    • Might generation is passive by default to avoid an inconsistent gain. Everything ends with a gain of 80 endurance with 8 might (8s); clean numbers.

    Vulture Stance

    • Stance effect: Your strikes inflict poison (6s) and converts a boon into poison (6s).
    • Interval increased from ½s to 1s.
    • Effect can activate once per target within the interval added.
    • Introduces a way to deal with boons while keeping the poison. Additional poison to punish foes with boons.

    Bear, Dolyak, and Moa Stance

    • Remains the same.

    One Wolf Pack

    • Effect can activate once per target within the interval added.
    • Unique additional effect for the Player Only: Fight alongside your Pet while retaining Beastmode skills and bonuses of the current Pet for the duration. If your Pet is active, gain Beastmode skills and bonuses of the current Pet for the duration. When you activate your Beast ability (F2), so does your Pet.
    • Not a simple tweak, but this should give this elite some more impact and flair.

    PET PRECISION & DPS DATA (DPS outdated)
    Back in Black... Desert Online.

  • Krispera.5087Krispera.5087 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 6, 2017

    Love all your ideas, mostly thought the same about Griffon and Vulture.

    For Moa, I wish we had a boon corrupt/steal/removal immunity for the duration of the stance. What's the point to get boons out, only to get them removed so easily (Mostly PvP and WvW talk here). That would be an interesting mechanic.

    As for OWP, I wish it was PER target (Not one target) and on a shorter cooldown. It really removes the punch of it.

  • GussJr.1643GussJr.1643 Member ✭✭
    edited October 6, 2017

    I like both ideas on the Vulture stance...its the only one I run with, but it definitely needs a bit more flare and a bit more punch. I would even say change it to like 4 stacks of bleed above 50% health...4 sec of poison below 50% health...with a little longer cool down on the reuse of the skill.

  • @Krispera.5087 said:
    For Moa, I wish we had a boon corrupt/steal/removal immunity for the duration of the stance.

    That is one of the most awesome thing I've ever heard. It's not going to happen, but the implication on wvw would be massive, providing the class with a unique and most welcome utility.

  • Durzlla.6295Durzlla.6295 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I love that idea for vulture stance, also think the Night stacks should probably be changed to bleed when above 50% health, or make it so it just always does poison shrugs

    I also like the idea of making griffin stance more uniform, I really want to like griffon stance, but atm I just can't, it's so bad.

    "But my children sing to me. Listen. They sing dark, delicious notes about power and family. As their mother, I have to grant them their wish."

  • OGDeadHead.8326OGDeadHead.8326 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 6, 2017

    @ProtoMarcus.7649 said:

    SUGGESTION:

    • Reduce stance cooldown by 5% per affected ally.

    This would really push and reward the support and group aspect, the cooldown reduction is more potent if you're in groups. Of course there's the 5 ally limit - so a potential 25% cooldown reduction. Another suggestion was to see stances grant 2s Quickness to self and allies - would synergize with other traits and offer great utility

    While I like this idea, and I also agree with most of your ideas as a whole, I would very much like to have this GM also have a better effect for soloplayers. While the idea of this GM from Anet is with groupplay in mind, I'm not a fan of traits that are exclusive to that sphere only.
    I'm not sure how to improve this GM for the lonewolf, but surely we can come up with something?

  • Durzlla.6295Durzlla.6295 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @OGDeadHead.8326 said:

    @ProtoMarcus.7649 said:

    SUGGESTION:

    • Reduce stance cooldown by 5% per affected ally.

    This would really push and reward the support and group aspect, the cooldown reduction is more potent if you're in groups. Of course there's the 5 ally limit - so a potential 25% cooldown reduction. Another suggestion was to see stances grant 2s Quickness to self and allies - would synergize with other traits and offer great utility

    While I like this idea, and I also agree with most of your ideas as a whole, I would very much like to have this GM also have a better effect for soloplayers. While the idea of this GM from Anet is with groupplay in mind, I'm not a fan of traits that are exclusive to that sphere only.
    I'm not sure how to improve this GM for the lonewolf, but surely we can come up with something?

    One thing that'd be cool is if Anet made the trait also say, "if you apply the stance only to yourself the CD is reduced", or even cooler, make it so the stance duration is increased by 50% if it only affects you.

    And I mean only you, like you have to either have your pet out of range, or merge with it (unless stances are made to affect pet baseline), it'd fit with the thematic of Soulbeast imo.

    "But my children sing to me. Listen. They sing dark, delicious notes about power and family. As their mother, I have to grant them their wish."

  • You are not addressing the problem for One Wolf Pack

    THE PROBLEM HERE IS THE GLOBAL ICD, IT WILL NEVER PROC MULTIPLE INSTANCES ON AOE SKILLS EXCEPT MADKING RUNES. CHANGE IT TO PER TARGET ICD

    Even with the quickness tweak it would still be useless

  • Durzlla.6295Durzlla.6295 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I would hardly call it useless for it not triggering on AoE skills, especially since we're playing as Rangers, a class with god awful AoE potential in the first place.

    "But my children sing to me. Listen. They sing dark, delicious notes about power and family. As their mother, I have to grant them their wish."

  • @Durzlla.6295 said:
    I would hardly call it useless for it not triggering on AoE skills, especially since we're playing as Rangers, a class with god awful AoE potential in the first place.

    Well making it per target ICD would benefit everyone in this case, you just make the elite better so it works with any skill giving us more flexibility

  • Durzlla.6295Durzlla.6295 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @StickerHappy.8052 said:

    @Durzlla.6295 said:
    I would hardly call it useless for it not triggering on AoE skills, especially since we're playing as Rangers, a class with god awful AoE potential in the first place.

    Well making it per target ICD would benefit everyone in this case, you just make the elite better so it works with any skill giving us more flexibility

    Oh it'd certainly make it better if it were per target ICD, especially with leader of the pack, I was more just saying that as Rangers it not affecting AoE is trivial.

    "But my children sing to me. Listen. They sing dark, delicious notes about power and family. As their mother, I have to grant them their wish."

  • squiggit.2357squiggit.2357 Member ✭✭
    edited October 6, 2017

    I feel like Vulture actually needs a bit more work than the OP does. It's conceptually cool, but the might stacking feels pretty bad in group play and even solo between the interval and short duration (both of the stance and the buff) it never feels like it really ends up amounting to very much.

    Moa's also in a weird place for me. It's one of the cooler stances and one of the only ones that feels like it does anything interesting with stance mechanics, but it also feels like it forces the Soulbeast to do really specific things to leverage it properly.

    Honestly what I really think is missing are traits that effect stances. There's only one and pretty much every time I try to come up with a build to leverage stances I run into the fact that there's pretty much nothing you can do to modify or improve them. I'd like to see, I dunno, second skin get replaced with another stance trait.

  • Krispera.5087Krispera.5087 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 7, 2017

    @StickerHappy.8052 said:
    You are not addressing the problem for One Wolf Pack
    IT WILL NEVER PROC MULTIPLE INSTANCES ON AOE SKILLS EXCEPT MADKING RUNES. CHANGE IT TO PER TARGET ICD

    I believe I tried it in PvP 2 days ago on multiple golems and it would randomly do OPW on the 3 targets of Rune of the Mad King, for a total of 7 hits. Not 21 hits (3x7). Also, it's a good way to get killed by retaliation and confusion :/ (which happened many times) !

  • I honestly think they are all terrible, really. Even the ones with some useful effects are useless because of ridiculously short effects and absurdly long cool-downs. In this state, I won't ever replace a trap for a Stance. Hell, I'd rather use a Spirit in it's place.

  • shadowpass.4236shadowpass.4236 Member ✭✭✭✭

    The base 50% sharing needs to be base. The trait should give 20% cdr as well as 100% duration share with allies.

    The stances also need to affect the pet as well.

  • Pterikdactyl.7630Pterikdactyl.7630 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 7, 2017

    @Krispera.5087 said:

    For Moa, I wish we had a boon corrupt/steal/removal immunity for the duration of the stance. What's the point to get boons out, only to get them removed so easily (Mostly PvP and WvW talk here). That would be an interesting mechanic.

    Boon removal immunity is my favorite idea that I've seen thrown around for Moa Stance. I think it is super unique and would really provide a special niche, but perhaps would offer too much for the CD it has now since it's already a solid skill as is.

    Griffon Stance is by far the biggest disappointment for me. Its CD is so ridiculous for what it does. It pales in comparison to skills like Thief's Signet of Agility. I love the idea of an evasive stance--it is the one I was most excited about--but really, the might on dodge of all things? It's kitten. I'd rather have it give something like endurance on evade, increasing the evade frame on dodges, or as someone suggested, removing a condition on dodge. Maybe even increasing movement speed. Also, does the skill stack with vigor yet? Because if it doesn't, that needs to be fixed.

    Vulture Stance I only like for the poison application, and I think its current implementation is a cool concept, but I'd much rather it always give poison, and maybe additionally give it some sort of unique effect like "Poison applied to enemies while under the effect of Vulture Stance decreases heal potency by 50-66% (up from 33%)". I also think boonripping would be much more interesting than the might application, as others have suggested.

    Also, I agree with what @shadowpass.4236 said above; it should have a base 50% shared duration, and the trait should reduce the CD by 20% and increase the shared duration to 100%. The sharing with the pet should also be baseline (and not count as the 5 max targets).

  • I'd make all stances affect the pet as baseline first. Then I'd love to see LotP be able to affect 10 allies, it would be excellent for WvW and even raids then. Could even make it reduce duration/cd based upon the number of allies affected, maybe something like;


    Stances grant their effects to nearby allies. For each ally affected, stance duration and cooldown are reduced.
    Allies affected: 10
    Stance duration reduction per other ally: 5%
    Cooldown reduction per other ally: 3%

    The numbers are arbritrary. So you can grant your mate you are duoing with almost the whole duration, but you can also affect 10 allies for 50% duration but to do so would also get you a 30% cd reduction. For 5 players, you would get a 75% duration and a 15% cooldown decrease. You sacrifice some duration on yourself, but you gain the benefit back through the reduced CD when you help more allies.

    The intervals on Vulture Stance and OWP makes them very difficult to take full advantage of, can they just not make them like sharpening stone? Maybe that would be too bursty or too like venoms which are superior in every way.

  • ArmageddonAsh.6430ArmageddonAsh.6430 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 7, 2017

    Firstly, the Trait should have a 20% decrease in cool down at base, having it so that they reduce cool down per a target means that they would only be good in groups, thus be kinda pointless for those of us that roam, kind of like how the trait is useless for us now. What i would do:

    1) Make stances affect our pet as base
    2) Give say 25% improvement to effect duration and strength if we use them inside Beastmode
    3) Make the trait decrease cool down of stances by 20%

    Bear Stance: The heal itself is good, the problem is, when you're taking huge damage ticks it can kinda seem pointless. What i would add is gain 1second Resistance each time a condition is removed.

    Dolyak Stance: This one is actually solid, maybe as its a movement removal one, maybe have it so it also removes Torment as well, while its not movement impairing it is a movement based condition. Maybe add something like 3seconds of Superspeed on activation as well?

    Giffon Stance: The cool down is just too much, needs to be like 30seconds at most. Not sure about the Might on evading attacks, with limited evades im not sure just how effective that could be. I could be wrong and maybe others make great use of it.

    Moa Stance: Don't like it. Mostly as i hate boon spamming. My idea would be: Decrease the boon duration increase to 33% and add 33% increase to Condition duration, Inflict Vulnerability 5stacks, Blind or Cripple on enemies you hit, say 1second ICD per target?

    Vulture Stance: Good idea ruined by the 50% health requirement. My change Grant yourself 5stacks of Might for 6seconds. Your attacks inflict Poison.

    One Wolf Pack: Firstly, change its name to Wolfpack stance! This is "okay" for power builds, and even then its still not that great. Kinda kitten for hybrid or condi builds. I would make it so each hit also inflicts Bleeding. Would fit the theme, decrease the cool down to 50-45seconds as its just a little too long for what you get, unless they could maybe add an unblockable aspect to the additional hits ONLY

  • ProtoMarcus.7649ProtoMarcus.7649 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 7, 2017

    Leader of the Pack Definitely needs more punch.
    I think for both self utility and team utility, something along the lines of

    • Stances last 10% longer and have their cooldown reduced by 10%
    • Additionally, stances last 5% longer per affected allies and have their cooldowns further reduced by 3% per affected allies

    Would be pretty interesting and fair - that's a potential 35% duration increase and potential 25% cooldown reduction - it still has an effect when going solo, and even more rewarding in group play. If unmelded, the pet also counts as an ally - but I agree that pet should get the stance effect baseline

    The grandmaster traits (and actually some of the others too) are a little underwhelming for now - but that's a topic for another day ;)

    Marcus Forrest - Celestial Soulbeast - Darkhaven

    Soulbeast Feedback >> Dagger Skills / Beast Abilities / Stance Skills

  • ArmageddonAsh.6430ArmageddonAsh.6430 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ProtoMarcus.7649 said:
    Leader of the Pack Definitely needs more punch.
    I think for both self utility and team utility, something along the lines of

    • Stances last 10% longer and have their cooldown reduced by 10%
    • Additionally, stances last 5% longer per affected allies and have their cooldowns further reduced by 3% per affected allies

    Would be pretty interesting and fair - that's a potential 35% duration increase and potential 25% cooldown reduction - it still has an effect when going solo, and even more rewarding in group play. If unmelded, the pet also counts as an ally - but I agree that pet should get the stance effect baseline

    The grandmaster traits (and actually some of the others too) are a little underwhelming for now - but that's a topic for another day ;)

    Again, this would make them great for greats, meh for solo. If you are melded, do you count as 2 as you are melded with your pet? Do you count as someone affected by it? Maybe making it so it gives each stance an additional affect + a flat cool down would be enough?

    Not sure what the others could get but some ideas could be:

    Bear Stance - Gain 2seconds of Resistance each time a condition is removed, 1second ICD
    One Wolf Pack - Your attacks now also inflict Bleeding
    Dolyak Stance - Now removes Torment and makes you immune to torment for duration

  • @ArmageddonAsh.6430 said:

    @ProtoMarcus.7649 said:
    Leader of the Pack Definitely needs more punch.
    I think for both self utility and team utility, something along the lines of

    • Stances last 10% longer and have their cooldown reduced by 10%
    • Additionally, stances last 5% longer per affected allies and have their cooldowns further reduced by 3% per affected allies

    Would be pretty interesting and fair - that's a potential 35% duration increase and potential 25% cooldown reduction - it still has an effect when going solo, and even more rewarding in group play. If unmelded, the pet also counts as an ally - but I agree that pet should get the stance effect baseline

    The grandmaster traits (and actually some of the others too) are a little underwhelming for now - but that's a topic for another day ;)

    Again, this would make them great for greats, meh for solo. If you are melded, do you count as 2 as you are melded with your pet? Do you count as someone affected by it? Maybe making it so it gives each stance an additional affect + a flat cool down would be enough?

    Not sure what the others could get but some ideas could be:

    Bear Stance - Gain 2seconds of Resistance each time a condition is removed, 1second ICD
    One Wolf Pack - Your attacks now also inflict Bleeding
    Dolyak Stance - Now removes Torment and makes you immune to torment for duration

    Yeah thought of granting resistance on pulse but then the uptime would be super high
    One Wolf Pack could benefit from vulnerability too as it increases not just direct damage but condi damage too
    Dolyak stance is movement related, not damage related - I get that torment is somewhat linked to moving but it is not a movement-impeding condition

    Marcus Forrest - Celestial Soulbeast - Darkhaven

    Soulbeast Feedback >> Dagger Skills / Beast Abilities / Stance Skills

  • Lyros.4673Lyros.4673 Member ✭✭

    I think the stances as a whole are fundamentally flawed. They're really not more than passive activatable buffs that persist for far too little time. I won't say too much about their usefulness in PVP but as far as PVE goes, there's pretty much no real reason to use them. A stance would actively have persistent changes to gameplay, but the uptime of most of these abilities falls flat on their faces considering that a lot of them also have ICDs for whatever they proc, ultimately limiting actual usefulness. I think the Vulture stance just highlights this the most; while great in theory, 6 seconds of uptime but with a 1/2 second interval leaves it with an absolutely laughable amount of usefulness compared to other direct damage abilities.

    While I do think that Stances need to be reworked entirely (to call them a stance would be doing a disservice to what they actually do and how they actually function), I do like some of the suggestions OP posted; namely, adding all sorts of buffs and additional passive effects during the duration of the stance. However, in their current form, they're not stances at all, but merely a line of dedicated class specific buffs.

    Unfortunately the implementation of stances for Soulbeasts isn't in a good spot to be reworked. Stances should in theory, be high uptime activatable abilities that confer both a passive buff and a passive debuff which utterly conflicts with the current iteration of Soulbeasts and merging with their pets. For example, the Vulture stance being condition might cause a 15% Condition Duration uptime but a 20% lower boon uptime for all incoming boons. The One Wolf Pack stance might give permanent swiftness at the cost of 30% higher cooldown times for your abilities, pulsing at once every few seconds to allow for boonstrip/corrupt to have an effect. The Griffon stance might give more endurance regeneration but increases your susceptability to movement impairing conditions and actually applies light physical damage every X seconds depending on the condition inflicted (relatively low, but enough to dissuade players). The Dolyak stance might pulse Retaliation and Stability every few seconds at the cost of lower movement speed. The Bear stance might consume a condition every 5 seconds and provide healing for each condition consumed, but reduces outgoing condition duration by 20%.

    As such, stances can't be all activated at the same time. Functionally in terms of implementation, they'd similar to Facets of the Herald/Revenant, but would be more class specific and would confer greater individual bonuses. Obviously these times were pulled out of my behind and I'm not even going to try to theorycraft/excelspreadsheet the effectiveness, but that's just an idea I had in mind for how Soulbeast stances were to function. In conclusion I wanted to say I really like Soulbeast but the stances are total butt. It could also use some more power damage at times too.

  • ArmageddonAsh.6430ArmageddonAsh.6430 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ProtoMarcus.7649 said:
    Yeah thought of granting resistance on pulse but then the uptime would be super high
    One Wolf Pack could benefit from vulnerability too as it increases not just direct damage but condi damage too
    Dolyak stance is movement related, not damage related - I get that torment is somewhat linked to moving but it is not a movement-impeding condition

    It really wouldnt, if 8seconds resistance. By the time the actual effect has finished You'd have like less anyway, as its 2seconds with a 1ICD over 4seconds. So it would be like only a few seconds come the end of the heal. You would only get a max of 8seconds from the start point and remember - counter play would be - stop condi spamming when you see the heal active.

    Yeah and Torment is movement impairing, as you are forced to limit your movement or die.

  • Regarding One Wolf pack, i cannot seem to get this to work how i expect it to work, i'll try to explain. It lasts for 8s, has an interval of 0.5s, as such as long as I manage to attack 2 times each second it should give me 16 triggers of one wolf pack, this atleast is how i think it should work. however no matter how i try i cant get it to register more than 9 hits in combat log, and this seems to match on screen numbers i can see by stepping thru recorded materials i did while testing.

    So my conclusion is it seems that it doesnt actually have a 0.5s interval, but a 1s interval, that sometimes results in 9 hits for some weird reason. I tested this in many many ways, but even using just dagger auto while under quickness should be sufficient to get enough hits in to have it trigger twice / s, using mad king runes with it + warhorn 4 definately should be enough while also autoattacking.

    As far as allies goes it seems they only do get 4 and occasionally 5 hits, but it should in reality be 8 hits, so the same issue is there when shared.

    Lastly i fail to see why this skill that in functionality is very similar when shared to, venoms, Elementalists traited Arcane Power, and Firebrands Ashes of the Just, does not credit the soulbeast using the skill, when the other professions similar skills do.

    So, am I misunderstanding how One wolf pack works, and 8-9 hits is what I should expect, or is it bugged? and does anyone have a reasonable explanation as to why the damage allies do in this stance does not count to the soulbeasts damage?

  • @Druar.1730 said:
    Regarding One Wolf pack, i cannot seem to get this to work how i expect it to work, i'll try to explain. It lasts for 8s, has an interval of 0.5s, as such as long as I manage to attack 2 times each second it should give me 16 triggers of one wolf pack, this atleast is how i think it should work. however no matter how i try i cant get it to register more than 9 hits in combat log, and this seems to match on screen numbers i can see by stepping thru recorded materials i did while testing.

    So my conclusion is it seems that it doesnt actually have a 0.5s interval, but a 1s interval, that sometimes results in 9 hits for some weird reason. I tested this in many many ways, but even using just dagger auto while under quickness should be sufficient to get enough hits in to have it trigger twice / s, using mad king runes with it + warhorn 4 definately should be enough while also autoattacking.

    As far as allies goes it seems they only do get 4 and occasionally 5 hits, but it should in reality be 8 hits, so the same issue is there when shared.

    Lastly i fail to see why this skill that in functionality is very similar when shared to, venoms, Elementalists traited Arcane Power, and Firebrands Ashes of the Just, does not credit the soulbeast using the skill, when the other professions similar skills do.

    So, am I misunderstanding how One wolf pack works, and 8-9 hits is what I should expect, or is it bugged? and does anyone have a reasonable explanation as to why the damage allies do in this stance does not count to the soulbeasts damage?

    Are you able to replicate that? I'll have to test it out myself.

    I do agree with others in that the interval really has to be 'unique' per targets

    Marcus Forrest - Celestial Soulbeast - Darkhaven

    Soulbeast Feedback >> Dagger Skills / Beast Abilities / Stance Skills

  • Kraitan.8476Kraitan.8476 Member ✭✭✭

    In it's current condition I feel like it will take Anet at least a year of balancing to get soulbeast viable in any way shape or form. I really hope they aren't afraid to go big on it and if neccesary tweak it down a little after. But who am I kidding, this spec will never be meta.

  • InsaneQR.7412InsaneQR.7412 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Bear: The idea of the 2s resistance sounds good. I would increase only the base heal, that would be enough for better usabbility.

    Moa and Dolyak are fine.

    Vulture: While in this stance: Condition Duration is increased 33%, when you hit you apply 1 stack of poison and remove a boon, you deal more dmg against targets without a boon.
    This captures the hybrid feeling and the ruthlessness of a vulture.

    Wolfpack: Apply bleed and gain might when hitting a target.
    Also this captures the hybrid feeling of SBeast and would justify OWP as an elite and not like a utility with a high CD.

    The trait should give a CD reduction and some minor seconds of quickness per ally hit.

  • I would love to see the metrics they have on stance skills use since PoF release.

  • @ArmageddonAsh.6430 said:
    ... One Wolf Pack - Your attacks now also inflict Bleeding...

    @InsaneQR.7412 said:
    ...Wolfpack: Apply bleed and gain might when hitting a target.
    Also this captures the hybrid feeling of SBeast and would justify OWP as an elite and not like a utility with a high CD...

    I would like to see short duration Poison for synergy with Predator's Cunning AND a 33% BASE attack speed increase ( an effect, not Quickness) for the duration.

  • ArmageddonAsh.6430ArmageddonAsh.6430 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582 said:

    @ArmageddonAsh.6430 said:
    ... One Wolf Pack - Your attacks now also inflict Bleeding...

    @InsaneQR.7412 said:
    ...Wolfpack: Apply bleed and gain might when hitting a target.
    Also this captures the hybrid feeling of SBeast and would justify OWP as an elite and not like a utility with a high CD...

    I would like to see short duration Poison for synergy with Predator's Cunning AND a 33% BASE attack speed increase ( an effect, not Quickness) for the duration.

    Mmmmm, Poison would be a good option as well, a Trait with (or without...) a ICD that removes a boon when you apply Poison would be VERY welcome as well imo.

  • With today's update, I'd like to add some feedback on current Stance state.

    Leader of the Pack (Trait)

    • Has an interesting effect for the player now (150% duration) but I feel ally duration should be raised to the normal, 100% duration

    Vulture Stance (The condi stance)

    • Lower interval cooldown and removal of the health threshold is nice, but I still feel this stance could be made even more unique and useful for condi builds if
    • Vulture Stance grants you 33% condition duration bonus - would synergize with more than just poison, and traited would give more utility to self and allies with their condition applications.

    Griffon Stance (The evasion stance)

    • Lower CD and double might stacks is still not enough
    • Make it a stun break
    • Give 50 endurance in PvE on cast (up from 25)
    • Return 5 endurance per dodge and additional 10 endurance per evade
    • Grant 1 might per dodge and additional 2 might per evade
    • Lower CD to 35s

    One Wolf Pack (The DPS stance)

    • Lower interval is good, but still only affects one target at a time which is bad
    • Make it so it grants 3s of quickness on cast - with lower interval, it'll greatly benefit, and add utility.

    Moa and Dolyak are top notch
    Bear is in a good spot, though a 2s resistance on cast would be welcome (that or a faster interval between cleanses)

    Marcus Forrest - Celestial Soulbeast - Darkhaven

    Soulbeast Feedback >> Dagger Skills / Beast Abilities / Stance Skills

  • Sol.4310Sol.4310 Member ✭✭✭

    @ProtoMarcus.7649 said:
    With today's update, I'd like to add some feedback on current Stance state.

    Leader of the Pack (Trait)

    • Has an interesting effect for the player now (150% duration) but I feel ally duration should be raised to the normal, 100% duration

    Vulture Stance (The condi stance)

    • Lower interval cooldown and removal of the health threshold is nice, but I still feel this stance could be made even more unique and useful for condi builds if
    • Vulture Stance grants you 33% condition duration bonus - would synergize with more than just poison, and traited would give more utility to self and allies with their condition applications.

    Griffon Stance (The evasion stance)

    • Lower CD and double might stacks is still not enough
    • Make it a stun break
    • Give 50 endurance in PvE on cast (up from 25)
    • Return 5 endurance per dodge and additional 10 endurance per evade
    • Grant 1 might per dodge and additional 2 might per evade
    • Lower CD to 35s

    One Wolf Pack (The DPS stance)

    • Lower interval is good, but still only affects one target at a time which is bad
    • Make it so it grants 3s of quickness on cast - with lower interval, it'll greatly benefit, and add utility.

    Moa and Dolyak are top notch
    Bear is in a good spot, though a 2s resistance on cast would be welcome (that or a faster interval between cleanses)

    I know it's not the solution you wanted but you could take Rune of the Revenant which gives 2 seconds resistance on cast of healing skill.

  • ArmageddonAsh.6430ArmageddonAsh.6430 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ProtoMarcus.7649 said:
    With today's update, I'd like to add some feedback on current Stance state.

    Leader of the Pack (Trait)

    • Has an interesting effect for the player now (150% duration) but I feel ally duration should be raised to the normal, 100% duration

    Vulture Stance (The condi stance)

    • Lower interval cooldown and removal of the health threshold is nice, but I still feel this stance could be made even more unique and useful for condi builds if
    • Vulture Stance grants you 33% condition duration bonus - would synergize with more than just poison, and traited would give more utility to self and allies with their condition applications.

    Griffon Stance (The evasion stance)

    • Lower CD and double might stacks is still not enough
    • Make it a stun break
    • Give 50 endurance in PvE on cast (up from 25)
    • Return 5 endurance per dodge and additional 10 endurance per evade
    • Grant 1 might per dodge and additional 2 might per evade
    • Lower CD to 35s

    One Wolf Pack (The DPS stance)

    • Lower interval is good, but still only affects one target at a time which is bad
    • Make it so it grants 3s of quickness on cast - with lower interval, it'll greatly benefit, and add utility.

    Moa and Dolyak are top notch
    Bear is in a good spot, though a 2s resistance on cast would be welcome (that or a faster interval between cleanses)

    Leader of the Pack change was nice in that now its good for anyone rather than just group/zerg players. I think buffing allies to 100% would be too much. I would have liked to have seen that REMOVED and made it a 100% Ranger only trait. Increased Duration + added effect for each stance would have been very welcome.

    Griffon Stance as you say, still sucks. Need i say more?

    One Wolf Pack i think would be too strong if it was per a target

    Vulture stance is a welcome change, useable no matter what, I think adding increased condi duration would be too much. Maybe adding something like below 50% health targets get applied with a second condition (or maybe double stacks of poison) would be a decent addition.

    Moa is broken. There is NO doubt that will be nerfed. I am calling a cool down increase. With the trait that is WAY too much time to have 66% boon increase. You'd better hope that its a cool down increase, because i could see them battering the 66% down to 33% maybe lower due to its insane duration and uptime now.

    Dolyak is very solid now, though 6 stacks of stability still isnt enough, even 1 Vs 1 that can be melted through before its base duration has ended. I would have liked it to be either MUCH higher or make it so you cant be CCed at all for its duration?

    I would have LOVED some Resistance on Bear Stance and have been calling for it since PoF came out. The 12 Condis removed is nice though (when traited) Maybe make it so that Poison is the first condition on the list to be removed and then for the heal to happen, that way you dont lose SO much healing, considering how low the first part of the heal is.

  • ProtoMarcus.7649ProtoMarcus.7649 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 7, 2017

    Yeah I agree that Moa Stance is broken... Traited is TWELVE SECONDS duration on a 25s CD - almost 50% uptime
    I'd be fine if the base duration was lowered to 6s but keeping the CD as it is - that's a 25% duration decrease

    For dolyak stance, yeah, still a bit sad that it is only 1 of 2 sources of stability for the ranger, and compared to Warrior's Balance Stance, it's a little lackluster - I understand it has the additional effect of not being affected by movement-imparing condis - perhaps that can come to play?

    One extra stack and one extra second of stability whenever a movement impeding condition is being 'applied' to you (won't affect you anyway) or whenever you cleanse them on stance trigger?

    EDIT: Forgot they buffed base moa to 10s... So traited is 15s - reducing it to a base 8s (which was the original duration?) would be okay

    Marcus Forrest - Celestial Soulbeast - Darkhaven

    Soulbeast Feedback >> Dagger Skills / Beast Abilities / Stance Skills

  • @ProtoMarcus.7649 said:
    Yeah I agree that Moa Stance is broken... Traited is TWELVE SECONDS duration on a 25s CD - almost 50% uptime
    I'd be fine if the base duration was lowered to 6s but keeping the CD as it is - that's a 25% duration decrease

    For dolyak stance, yeah, still a bit sad that it is only 1 of 2 sources of stability for the ranger, and compared to Warrior's Balance Stance, it's a little lackluster - I understand it has the additional effect of not being affected by movement-imparing condis - perhaps that can come to play?

    One extra stack and one extra second of stability whenever a movement impeding condition is being 'applied' to you (won't affect you anyway) or whenever you cleanse them on stance trigger?

    EDIT: Forgot they buffed base moa to 10s... So traited is 15s - reducing it to a base 8s (which was the original duration?) would be okay

    Just wanna make sure. The traited duration is AFTER 150% added right?

  • Does my or my allies receive only 4s from one wolf pack and I get 12s with trait? Should not my allies receive 6s? For example, my pet gets the bear stance only 2s and not 4s as it should since the duration for me is 6s with trait.

    If this does not have a bug, is it me testing wrong, can someone test and tell me?

  • @Rap Tiger.1257 said:
    Does my or my allies receive only 4s from one wolf pack and I get 12s with trait? Should not my allies receive 6s? For example, my pet gets the bear stance only 2s and not 4s as it should since the duration for me is 6s with trait.

    If this does not have a bug, is it me testing wrong, can someone test and tell me?

    Allies receive 50% of the base duration of Stances. They do not receive 50% of the personal extended durations.

    PET PRECISION & DPS DATA (DPS outdated)
    Back in Black... Desert Online.

  • @StickerHappy.8052 said:

    @ProtoMarcus.7649 said:
    Yeah I agree that Moa Stance is broken... Traited is TWELVE SECONDS duration on a 25s CD - almost 50% uptime
    I'd be fine if the base duration was lowered to 6s but keeping the CD as it is - that's a 25% duration decrease

    For dolyak stance, yeah, still a bit sad that it is only 1 of 2 sources of stability for the ranger, and compared to Warrior's Balance Stance, it's a little lackluster - I understand it has the additional effect of not being affected by movement-imparing condis - perhaps that can come to play?

    One extra stack and one extra second of stability whenever a movement impeding condition is being 'applied' to you (won't affect you anyway) or whenever you cleanse them on stance trigger?

    EDIT: Forgot they buffed base moa to 10s... So traited is 15s - reducing it to a base 8s (which was the original duration?) would be okay

    Just wanna make sure. The traited duration is AFTER 150% added right?

    The trait was changed to give 50% duration to self, for a total of 150% duration

    Moa Stance was buffed to have a base duration of 10s, once traited it's active for 15s (50% more)

    Marcus Forrest - Celestial Soulbeast - Darkhaven

    Soulbeast Feedback >> Dagger Skills / Beast Abilities / Stance Skills

  • Heh, I didn't even notice it until now, but Griffon Stance had an unlisted reduction which lowered the base duration from 8s to 6s.

    PET PRECISION & DPS DATA (DPS outdated)
    Back in Black... Desert Online.

  • Sharpening Stone (bleeding) was nerfed and still outdps Vulture Instance (poison/might) on a poison focused build (100% poison duration) even after it was "buffed". Just sad.

  • Probably just me, but I don't think it would hurt if they reverted the duration changes on Griffon and Moa back to 8s, and instead boosted One Wolf Pack from 8s to 10s.

    Kinda odd to me that Moa has a longer duration than our elite, which was made better in this update, and could use just a bit more of a push; especially since Moa was also also buffed with regen on top of the previous effects.

    PET PRECISION & DPS DATA (DPS outdated)
    Back in Black... Desert Online.

  • ProtoMarcus.7649ProtoMarcus.7649 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 9, 2017

    Griffon Stance duration wasn't changed, only the CD was changed (from 45 to 40s (still ridiculous))
    EDIT - My bad, it was indeed nerfed from 8s to 6s. What a joke, and a bad one at that! SERIOUSLY if anything, that stance should be the one with a base 10s duration, especially considering its ridiculous 40s cooldown (and not even a stun break)

    Un-traited and without vigor, that's barely one extra dodge.

    I do agree reverting Moa Stance to 8s wouldn't hurt, I mean traited it lasts friggin fifteen seconds on 25s CD - That's definitely broken - at 12s (traited) it's a sweet spot (though wouldn't be surprised to see the CD go from 25s to 30s)

    Also don't understand the change to vulture stance's poison duration... Like the previous poster mentionned Sharpening Stone still outperforms in terms of DPS even when the build is optimised for Poison. It really feels like an underperforming Sharpening Stone - another reason I reaaaaaaally want that extra effect of 33% condi duration on the stance enhancement!

    Marcus Forrest - Celestial Soulbeast - Darkhaven

    Soulbeast Feedback >> Dagger Skills / Beast Abilities / Stance Skills

  • ProtoMarcus.7649ProtoMarcus.7649 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 9, 2017

    WAIT A MINUTE. GRIFFON STANCE ACTUALLY RECOVERS 50 ENDURANCE ON ACTIVATION NOW.

    Up from 25 - Is it still worth it?

    Not really. If it was stun break and 35s cooldown, maybe, but not int its current state.

    Marcus Forrest - Celestial Soulbeast - Darkhaven

    Soulbeast Feedback >> Dagger Skills / Beast Abilities / Stance Skills

  • Yeah. Seems to be another tooltip error where they forgot to update it. Maybe that's why the duration was reduced? It's more useful now, but still no dice unless Leader of the Pack also shared the personal endurance gain with allies. As far as I am aware, it only shares the stance buff and boons, yes?

    PET PRECISION & DPS DATA (DPS outdated)
    Back in Black... Desert Online.

  • Professor Sprout.1560Professor Sprout.1560 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 9, 2017

    @Marcaum.1302 @ProtoMarcus.7649 Under what circumstances exactly did you test the damage from Sharpening Stone vs that of Vulture Stance? How many hits were you landing per stance use and how did you calculate for the damage done by sharing the stance to allies?

  • @Professor Sprout.1560 said:
    @Marcaum.1302 @ProtoMarcus.7649 Under what circumstances exactly did you test the damage from Sharpening Stone vs that of Vulture Stance? How many hits were you landing per stance use and how did you calculate for the damage done by sharing the stance to allies?

    Out of curiousity, I decided to do some tests myself.

    These tests are assuming a few things

    • That you have 100% bleed duration
    • That you have 100% poison duration
    • That you are, for the most part, running the meta build, and using qtfy standardized buffs/debuffs
    • Since the standard build has over 4 hits per second, given overlap on some skills, and since no one is perfect, we'll use a rough baseline of roughly 2.75 hits per second, achievable by using crossfire with quickness.
    • I went for percentages over flat numbers because they were easier to make out the exact difference, and the specific dps is unnecessary for the comparison

    So, onto the numbers. I did 3 tests, and repeated them a few times just to make sure there were no outliers.

    • Baseline - Sharpening Stone - 100% Damage
    • Untraited - Vulture Stance - 97.7% Damage
    • Traited - Vulture Stance - 101.8% Damage

    Note that traited vulture stance was solo DPS, and wasn't considering the damage you would get by sharing the stance to allies. With that in mind, I think it's unfair to say sharpening stone is a blatantly stronger skill of choice. I don't think either of them would be a poor choice to run in the meta currently. (Excusing if meta Soulbeast suddenly starts running the stance sharing trait, which wouldn't surprise me, and would make vulture stance undoubtedly the stronger choice.) Though, in raids and fractals, I would still probably recommend sharpening stone just due to the ease of use.

    I go by Feyris Nyo in game.
    I've put a lot of time in the game, mostly in regards to sPvP and open world, though I've basically done everything. I know a ton about ranger, and a lot about most of the rest
    Mod and Resident Ranger expert of the GW2 Subreddit Discord Server

  • @ITheNormalPerson.9275 Thanks a lot for your detailed analysis and your data, it is very thorough and helpful. If the meta does shift to using the stance trait, it sounds as though it might make sense to put aside the fire/poison traps and run both stance and stone in the same build.

  • Apart from what @ITheNormalPerson.9275 tested, there is also a HUGE negative side to the Stance when compared to Sharperning Stone that people seem to be failing to see: When i pop Sharpening Stone, I have all the time in the world to shoot my targets for it to proc. Using the Stance, I have ridiculous FOUR SECONDS to dish all the blows I can. That means that if I have to reposition, dodge, or if I get downed, stunned, knocked back/down after I pop the Stance, it all goes to waste until I can try again 30 seconds later.

    I think it is totally fair to say Sharpening Stone is BLATANTLY stronger than Vulture Stance for this reason alone. Again, guys, more real world testing, less punch bag testing.

  • @Marcaum.1302 said:
    Apart from what @ITheNormalPerson.9275 tested, there is also a HUGE negative side to the Stance when compared to Sharperning Stone that people seem to be failing to see: When i pop Sharpening Stone, I have all the time in the world to shoot my targets for it to proc. Using the Stance, I have ridiculous FOUR SECONDS to dish all the blows I can. That means that if I have to reposition, dodge, or if I get downed, stunned, knocked back/down after I pop the Stance, it all goes to waste until I can try again 30 seconds later.

    I think it is totally fair to say Sharpening Stone is BLATANTLY stronger than Vulture Stance for this reason alone. Again, guys, more real world testing, less punch bag testing.

    I definitely do agree with your sentiment, and even closed off my post with "Though, in raids and fractals, I would still probably recommend sharpening stone just due to the ease of use.", trying to imply that point. However, a few things are worth nothing. Firstly, it's 6 seconds untraited, not 4. You can check in game if you wish, unless the increased duration is unintentional then yeah, it isn't great. Secondly, I specifically tested with just over 50% efficacy for that reason. If you are hitting higher rates, you will outdamage sharpening stones easily. and with skills like one wolf pack, ticking traps, and what have you - of which I used none of - you can hit much higher to 100%. And most meta builds and benchmarks are designed around the concept of maximizing damage, even if it reduces reliability for the casual player. Hence why, when speaking of meta builds, it is a point worth mentioning. And if you add that concept to a stance-shared vulture's stance, of which it was already out-damaging sharpening stone before sharing, AND with less than perfect efficacy, it becomes an even more viable, or perhaps optimal choice.

    And before it seems this way, I'm not disagreeing with you. I do think sharpening stone is still a better choice for a majority of players, assuming you aren't stance-sharing. Just to say it's "BLATANTLY stronger" is a bit of a falsehood. I don't think either are yet to be seen as realistically stronger, though one is objectively stronger currently, and it's vulture stance. And while that may not be the defining choice, it is worth mentioning.

    I go by Feyris Nyo in game.
    I've put a lot of time in the game, mostly in regards to sPvP and open world, though I've basically done everything. I know a ton about ranger, and a lot about most of the rest
    Mod and Resident Ranger expert of the GW2 Subreddit Discord Server

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