This thread follows my Soulbeast Dagger feedback and my Soulbeast Beast Abilities feedback - commentary and feedback on current state of Soulbeast mechanics, skills, anything. Today's subject are the Stance Skills

SOULBEAST FEEDBACK - STANCE SKILLS

The Soulbeast stances all have specific themes, much like the pet archetypes. Out of 6 stances, I'd say 2 perform adequately while 2 are okay but could see some work, and the last 2 are just not interesting enough to see a place on the skill bar.

Trait Commentary

The trait affecting stances directly is Leader of the Pack - it shares the stance effect at a reduced duration and the boons at full duration. It's the only effect, and it is a grandmaster trait. We have no stance enhancing effect, whether in terms of longer duration or lower cooldown - One of the two would make the trait very interesting

SUGGESTION:

• Reduce stance cooldown by 5% per affected ally.

This would really push and reward the support and group aspect, the cooldown reduction is more potent if you're in groups. Of course there's the 5 ally limit - so a potential 25% cooldown reduction. Another suggestion was to see stances grant 2s Quickness to self and allies - would synergize with other traits and offer great utility

Now let's move on to the skills themselves

BEAR STANCE

The healing stance.This skill is alright - it is very situational, so I wouldn't recommend using it in condition-free situations, as it greatly loses its efficiency. Like all stances, no way to reduce the cooldown, so for some, that can be annoying. The condition cleanse effect is per pulse, so the player is still vulnerable to conditions while it is in effect. The healing numbers are good - with zero healing power, you can potentially heal up to 8227 health, but remember - conditions still tick in that time so the effective recovery can be much lower.

SUGGESTION:

• Apply 2s resistance on skill use
• Augment the base healing for the skill activation by 10%

The reasoning behind this is that again, we are still rather vulnerable while the stance is pulsing - with the current condition heavy meta, you can get a lot of damage in 4s. Not to mention this skill doesn't seem to prioritise any conditions, so while it cleanses movement impeding conditions, the damaging conditions still tick. The resistance would mitigate some of that damage, and the higher base healing numbers would give a little boost both when cleansing, or for using the skill without being affected by conditions. Also adding a boon to this stance would somewhat normalise it with the other stances - all other stances (save for the elite, we'll explore that one later) offer at least one boon.

GRIFFON STANCE

The evasion stance.Oh boy. On paper, and thematically, it is an interesting idea. But oh my goodness, the cooldown vs effect ratio is horrible. 45 seconds cooldown (and again, no trait to lower the cooldown) for a minimal effect? Something is really wrong here. The dodges this stance grants are less than 3(?) so on a 45 seconds cooldown, and for the minimal effect it grants, I highly doubt people actually use that skill. Again, thematically, it is interesting, and I want to keep the theme, but please, tweaks the numbers. Greatly.

SUGGESTION:

• Reduce the cooldown from 45s to 30s (33% decrease)
• Make this skill a stun breaker
• In PVE, give 50 endurance instead of 25.
• Make the stance last 10s instead of 8s

Reasoning is pretty simple - it is HIGHLY UNDERPERFORMING. Making it a stun break sounds absolutely natural and adds active utility. The change from 25 to 50 endurance is to guarantee at least one dodge, and the stance duration from 8s to 10s is not just for the player, but also for allies, if traited with Leader of the Pack, as with 4s, it is barely 1 new dodge (and about 1 might stack). The cooldown reduction is just... mandatory.

VULTURE STANCE

The condition stance.This one is in an okay spot, BUT it does lack a little effect that would greatly fit its theme (conditions) and give it a unique identity

SUGGESTION:

• Increase the duration of conditions you apply while in this stance. Duration increase: 33%

This would be like the twin to Moa Stance - where moa is about boons, this one is about conditions. Moa stance grants 66% boon duration, Vulture stance would grant 33% condition duration. It would greatly complement any condition builds and add something unique and very useful for condi builds to yourself and to allies when traited. The might and poison are fine, I'd like to perhaps suggest a 2s increase to both the stance duration and the might and poison durations? From 6s to 8s.

DOLYAK STANCE

The movement stance.This one is in a good spot. The only other skill that grants stability to rangers... Still sad about that. The boons are great, stability stacks are fine, a bit bummed it doesn't pulse though, like warrior's Balanced Stance but we have a good cooldown and the stance effect is really nice.

SUGGESTION:

• None

MOA STANCE

The boon stance.I love it. It's in a perfect spot - proper balance of cooldown, duration, effect and utility. I honestly don't see anything to change to make it viable or useful. It covers its theme and role perfectly - enhance boons (and grant some). Let's also not forget that it affects its own boons itself, so it actually grants 5s protection and 10s fury and swiftness.

SUGGESTION:

• Congratulate whoever designed this stance

The reasoning behind this is that the guy that designed it did a good job, ha! :D

ONE WOLF PACK (AKA Wolf Pack Stance, maybe)

The DPS stance.This one is interesting, but lacks something - other elite skills are more interesting and again, I'll say it, this one lacks utility. Back when this stance was announced, many people (myself included) thought the description meant that it would 'double' the hit you made - so double maul or double point blank shot etc - and while interesting that would be, it would also be pretty broken, even with higher CD and higher interval rate. My suggestion is simple, and would also synergise with core ranger and soulbeast itself

SUGGESTION:

• Grant 0.5s quickness on successful hits per interval

Just think about it. For 3s. Done? Lemme explain the reasoning - it's the DPS stance, and quickness is one of the best boon for DPS. It is also not granted freely - you need to perform successful hits to get the quickness. To the player, that's a potential 8s quickness if all strikes hit, but for allies, when stances are traited, it's a potential 4s quickness, which is very much in line with Guardian's elite shout "Feel my Wrath!" (which also grants fury, is traitable for lower cooldown and has a base cooldown of 45s). It would also synergize with Essence of Speed.

If deemed too powerful, due to potential 8s quickness or even up to 12s due to Essence of Speed, the effect could be changed to simply

• Grant 4s of quickness on skill use

It would only grant the quickness when the skill is cast, not on succesful strikes - and when traited, it would still be the full 4s quickness as the stance share trait doesn't reduce boon durations, but stance durations only.4s quickness on 60s cooldown is extremely fair.

An alternate suggestion that would also benefit condition builds would be to

• Apply 1 stack of 3 seconds of vulnerability on succesful strikesAs it currently is, it doesn't really compliment condition builds but with extra vulnerability on enemies enhances both power and condi damage.

I was quite surprised to see no quickness on any of the stances, esp since there are specific traits for that boon. I think the stances have good themes/goals, but most really need tweaks to be viable over other skills.

How would you tweak the stances? Are you happy with their current iterations? I'd like to hear your comments and reasoning.

See also:

• Dagger Feedback
• Beast Abilities Feedback

One Wolf Pack should simply apply a bleeding stack on each hit. Very thematic, and fits the 'hybrid' style of SoulBeast.

Griffon Stance should cleanse a condi on dodge and have its cooldown reduced to 35seconds

I like your suggestion of Vulture Stance and the Resistance for Bear stance aswell (healing increase not needed necessarily)

What I would tweak on stances:

• Stance effects applied to the Pet by default.
• Leader of the Pack shared duration increased to 100%.

Griffon Stance

• Duration reduced from 8s to 4s.
• Stance effect: Gain 20 endurance and 2 might (8s) per second.
• Cooldown reduced from 45s to 35s.
• Endurance gain is able to stack with normal endurance regeneration and vigor. Stance duration is reduced and endurance gain is condensed.
• Might generation is passive by default to avoid an inconsistent gain. Everything ends with a gain of 80 endurance with 8 might (8s); clean numbers.

Vulture Stance

• Stance effect: Your strikes inflict poison (6s) and converts a boon into poison (6s).
• Interval increased from ½s to 1s.
• Effect can activate once per target within the interval added.
• Introduces a way to deal with boons while keeping the poison. Additional poison to punish foes with boons.

Bear, Dolyak, and Moa Stance

• Remains the same.

One Wolf Pack

• Effect can activate once per target within the interval added.
• Unique additional effect for the Player Only: Fight alongside your Pet while retaining Beastmode skills and bonuses of the current Pet for the duration. If your Pet is active, gain Beastmode skills and bonuses of the current Pet for the duration. When you activate your Beast ability (F2), so does your Pet.
• Not a simple tweak, but this should give this elite some more impact and flair.

Love all your ideas, mostly thought the same about Griffon and Vulture.

For Moa, I wish we had a boon corrupt/steal/removal immunity for the duration of the stance. What's the point to get boons out, only to get them removed so easily (Mostly PvP and WvW talk here). That would be an interesting mechanic.

As for OWP, I wish it was PER target (Not one target) and on a shorter cooldown. It really removes the punch of it.

I like both ideas on the Vulture stance...its the only one I run with, but it definitely needs a bit more flare and a bit more punch. I would even say change it to like 4 stacks of bleed above 50% health...4 sec of poison below 50% health...with a little longer cool down on the reuse of the skill.

@Krispera.5087 said:For Moa, I wish we had a boon corrupt/steal/removal immunity for the duration of the stance.

That is one of the most awesome thing I've ever heard. It's not going to happen, but the implication on wvw would be massive, providing the class with a unique and most welcome utility.

I love that idea for vulture stance, also think the Night stacks should probably be changed to bleed when above 50% health, or make it so it just always does poison shrugs

I also like the idea of making griffin stance more uniform, I really want to like griffon stance, but atm I just can't, it's so bad.

@ProtoMarcus.7649 said:

SUGGESTION:

• Reduce stance cooldown by 5% per affected ally.

This would really push and reward the support and group aspect, the cooldown reduction is more potent if you're in groups. Of course there's the 5 ally limit - so a potential 25% cooldown reduction. Another suggestion was to see stances grant 2s Quickness to self and allies - would synergize with other traits and offer great utility

While I like this idea, and I also agree with most of your ideas as a whole, I would very much like to have this GM also have a better effect for soloplayers. While the idea of this GM from Anet is with groupplay in mind, I'm not a fan of traits that are exclusive to that sphere only.I'm not sure how to improve this GM for the lonewolf, but surely we can come up with something?

@OGDeadHead.8326 said:

@ProtoMarcus.7649 said:

SUGGESTION:

• Reduce stance cooldown
  by 5% per affected ally.

This would really push and reward the support and group aspect, the cooldown reduction is more potent if you're in groups. Of course there's the 5 ally limit - so a potential 25% cooldown reduction.

Another suggestion was to see stances

grant 2s Quickness to self and allies

- would synergize with other traits and offer great utility

One thing that'd be cool is if Anet made the trait also say, "if you apply the stance only to yourself the CD is reduced", or even cooler, make it so the stance duration is increased by 50% if it only affects you.

And I mean only you, like you have to either have your pet out of range, or merge with it (unless stances are made to affect pet baseline), it'd fit with the thematic of Soulbeast imo.

You are not addressing the problem for One Wolf Pack

THE PROBLEM HERE IS THE GLOBAL ICD, IT WILL NEVER PROC MULTIPLE INSTANCES ON AOE SKILLS EXCEPT MADKING RUNES. CHANGE IT TO PER TARGET ICD

Even with the quickness tweak it would still be useless

I would hardly call it useless for it not triggering on AoE skills, especially since we're playing as Rangers, a class with god awful AoE potential in the first place.

@Durzlla.6295 said:I would hardly call it useless for it not triggering on AoE skills, especially since we're playing as Rangers, a class with god awful AoE potential in the first place.

Well making it per target ICD would benefit everyone in this case, you just make the elite better so it works with any skill giving us more flexibility

@StickerHappy.8052 said:

@Durzlla.6295 said:I would hardly call it useless for it not triggering on AoE skills, especially since we're playing as Rangers, a class with god awful AoE potential in the first place.

Oh it'd certainly make it better if it were per target ICD, especially with leader of the pack, I was more just saying that as Rangers it not affecting AoE is trivial.

I feel like Vulture actually needs a bit more work than the OP does. It's conceptually cool, but the might stacking feels pretty bad in group play and even solo between the interval and short duration (both of the stance and the buff) it never feels like it really ends up amounting to very much.

Moa's also in a weird place for me. It's one of the cooler stances and one of the only ones that feels like it does anything interesting with stance mechanics, but it also feels like it forces the Soulbeast to do really specific things to leverage it properly.

Honestly what I really think is missing are traits that effect stances. There's only one and pretty much every time I try to come up with a build to leverage stances I run into the fact that there's pretty much nothing you can do to modify or improve them. I'd like to see, I dunno, second skin get replaced with another stance trait.

@StickerHappy.8052 said:You are not addressing the problem for One Wolf PackIT WILL NEVER PROC MULTIPLE INSTANCES ON AOE SKILLS EXCEPT MADKING RUNES. CHANGE IT TO PER TARGET ICD

I believe I tried it in PvP 2 days ago on multiple golems and it would randomly do OPW on the 3 targets of Rune of the Mad King, for a total of 7 hits. Not 21 hits (3x7). Also, it's a good way to get killed by retaliation and confusion :/ (which happened many times) !

I honestly think they are all terrible, really. Even the ones with some useful effects are useless because of ridiculously short effects and absurdly long cool-downs. In this state, I won't ever replace a trap for a Stance. Hell, I'd rather use a Spirit in it's place.

The base 50% sharing needs to be base. The trait should give 20% cdr as well as 100% duration share with allies.

The stances also need to affect the pet as well.

@Krispera.5087 said:

For Moa, I wish we had a boon corrupt/steal/removal immunity for the duration of the stance. What's the point to get boons out, only to get them removed so easily (Mostly PvP and WvW talk here). That would be an interesting mechanic.

Boon removal immunity is my favorite idea that I've seen thrown around for Moa Stance. I think it is super unique and would really provide a special niche, but perhaps would offer too much for the CD it has now since it's already a solid skill as is.

Griffon Stance is by far the biggest disappointment for me. Its CD is so ridiculous for what it does. It pales in comparison to skills like Thief's Signet of Agility. I love the idea of an evasive stance--it is the one I was most excited about--but really, the might on dodge of all things? It's shit. I'd rather have it give something like endurance on evade, increasing the evade frame on dodges, or as someone suggested, removing a condition on dodge. Maybe even increasing movement speed. Also, does the skill stack with vigor yet? Because if it doesn't, that needs to be fixed.

Vulture Stance I only like for the poison application, and I think its current implementation is a cool concept, but I'd much rather it always give poison, and maybe additionally give it some sort of unique effect like "Poison applied to enemies while under the effect of Vulture Stance decreases heal potency by 50-66% (up from 33%)". I also think boonripping would be much more interesting than the might application, as others have suggested.

Also, I agree with what @shadowpass.4236 said above; it should have a base 50% shared duration, and the trait should reduce the CD by 20% and increase the shared duration to 100%. The sharing with the pet should also be baseline (and not count as the 5 max targets).

I'd make all stances affect the pet as baseline first. Then I'd love to see LotP be able to affect 10 allies, it would be excellent for WvW and even raids then. Could even make it reduce duration/cd based upon the number of allies affected, maybe something like;

Stances grant their effects to nearby allies. For each ally affected, stance duration and cooldown are reduced.Allies affected: 10Stance duration reduction per other ally: 5%Cooldown reduction per other ally: 3%

The numbers are arbritrary. So you can grant your mate you are duoing with almost the whole duration, but you can also affect 10 allies for 50% duration but to do so would also get you a 30% cd reduction. For 5 players, you would get a 75% duration and a 15% cooldown decrease. You sacrifice some duration on yourself, but you gain the benefit back through the reduced CD when you help more allies.

The intervals on Vulture Stance and OWP makes them very difficult to take full advantage of, can they just not make them like sharpening stone? Maybe that would be too bursty or too like venoms which are superior in every way.

Firstly, the Trait should have a 20% decrease in cool down at base, having it so that they reduce cool down per a target means that they would only be good in groups, thus be kinda pointless for those of us that roam, kind of like how the trait is useless for us now. What i would do:

1) Make stances affect our pet as base2) Give say 25% improvement to effect duration and strength if we use them inside Beastmode3) Make the trait decrease cool down of stances by 20%

Bear Stance: The heal itself is good, the problem is, when you're taking huge damage ticks it can kinda seem pointless. What i would add is gain 1second Resistance each time a condition is removed.

Dolyak Stance: This one is actually solid, maybe as its a movement removal one, maybe have it so it also removes Torment as well, while its not movement impairing it is a movement based condition. Maybe add something like 3seconds of Superspeed on activation as well?

Giffon Stance: The cool down is just too much, needs to be like 30seconds at most. Not sure about the Might on evading attacks, with limited evades im not sure just how effective that could be. I could be wrong and maybe others make great use of it.

Moa Stance: Don't like it. Mostly as i hate boon spamming. My idea would be: Decrease the boon duration increase to 33% and add 33% increase to Condition duration, Inflict Vulnerability 5stacks, Blind or Cripple on enemies you hit, say 1second ICD per target?

Vulture Stance: Good idea ruined by the 50% health requirement. My change Grant yourself 5stacks of Might for 6seconds. Your attacks inflict Poison.

One Wolf Pack: Firstly, change its name to Wolfpack stance! This is "okay" for power builds, and even then its still not that great. Kinda crap for hybrid or condi builds. I would make it so each hit also inflicts Bleeding. Would fit the theme, decrease the cool down to 50-45seconds as its just a little too long for what you get, unless they could maybe add an unblockable aspect to the additional hits ONLY

Leader of the Pack Definitely needs more punch.I think for both self utility and team utility, something along the lines of

• Stances last 10% longer and have their cooldown reduced by 10%
• Additionally, stances last 5% longer per affected allies and have their cooldowns further reduced by 3% per affected allies

Would be pretty interesting and fair - that's a potential 35% duration increase and potential 25% cooldown reduction - it still has an effect when going solo, and even more rewarding in group play. If unmelded, the pet also counts as an ally - but I agree that pet should get the stance effect baseline

The grandmaster traits (and actually some of the others too) are a little underwhelming for now - but that's a topic for another day ;)

@ProtoMarcus.7649 said:Leader of the Pack Definitely needs more punch.I think for both self utility and team utility, something along the lines of

• Stances last 10% longer and have their cooldown reduced by 10%
• Additionally, stances last 5% longer per affected allies and have their cooldowns further reduced by 3% per affected allies

Would be pretty interesting and fair - that's a potential 35% duration increase and potential 25% cooldown reduction - it still has an effect when going solo, and even more rewarding in group play. If unmelded, the pet also counts as an ally - but I agree that pet should get the stance effect baseline

The grandmaster traits (and actually some of the others too) are a little underwhelming for now - but that's a topic for another day ;)

Again, this would make them great for greats, meh for solo. If you are melded, do you count as 2 as you are melded with your pet? Do you count as someone affected by it? Maybe making it so it gives each stance an additional affect + a flat cool down would be enough?

Not sure what the others could get but some ideas could be:

Bear Stance - Gain 2seconds of Resistance each time a condition is removed, 1second ICDOne Wolf Pack - Your attacks now also inflict BleedingDolyak Stance - Now removes Torment and makes you immune to torment for duration

@ArmageddonAsh.6430 said:

@ProtoMarcus.7649 said:

Leader of the Pack

Definitely needs more punch.I think for both self utility and team utility, something along the lines of

• Stances last
  10% longer
  and have their
  cooldown reduced by 10%
• Additionally, stances last
  5% longer per affected allies
  and have their cooldowns further
  reduced by 3% per affected allies

Would be pretty interesting and fair - that's a potential 35% duration increase and potential 25% cooldown reduction - it still has an effect when going solo, and even more rewarding in group play. If unmelded, the pet also counts as an ally - but I agree that pet should get the stance effect

baseline

The grandmaster traits (and actually some of the others too) are a little underwhelming for now - but that's a topic for another day ;)

Yeah thought of granting resistance on pulse but then the uptime would be super highOne Wolf Pack could benefit from vulnerability too as it increases not just direct damage but condi damage tooDolyak stance is movement related, not damage related - I get that torment is somewhat linked to moving but it is not a movement-impeding condition

I think the stances as a whole are fundamentally flawed. They're really not more than passive activatable buffs that persist for far too little time. I won't say too much about their usefulness in PVP but as far as PVE goes, there's pretty much no real reason to use them. A stance would actively have persistent changes to gameplay, but the uptime of most of these abilities falls flat on their faces considering that a lot of them also have ICDs for whatever they proc, ultimately limiting actual usefulness. I think the Vulture stance just highlights this the most; while great in theory, 6 seconds of uptime but with a 1/2 second interval leaves it with an absolutely laughable amount of usefulness compared to other direct damage abilities.

While I do think that Stances need to be reworked entirely (to call them a stance would be doing a disservice to what they actually do and how they actually function), I do like some of the suggestions OP posted; namely, adding all sorts of buffs and additional passive effects during the duration of the stance. However, in their current form, they're not stances at all, but merely a line of dedicated class specific buffs.

Unfortunately the implementation of stances for Soulbeasts isn't in a good spot to be reworked. Stances should in theory, be high uptime activatable abilities that confer both a passive buff and a passive debuff which utterly conflicts with the current iteration of Soulbeasts and merging with their pets. For example, the Vulture stance being condition might cause a 15% Condition Duration uptime but a 20% lower boon uptime for all incoming boons. The One Wolf Pack stance might give permanent swiftness at the cost of 30% higher cooldown times for your abilities, pulsing at once every few seconds to allow for boonstrip/corrupt to have an effect. The Griffon stance might give more endurance regeneration but increases your susceptability to movement impairing conditions and actually applies light physical damage every X seconds depending on the condition inflicted (relatively low, but enough to dissuade players). The Dolyak stance might pulse Retaliation and Stability every few seconds at the cost of lower movement speed. The Bear stance might consume a condition every 5 seconds and provide healing for each condition consumed, but reduces outgoing condition duration by 20%.

As such, stances can't be all activated at the same time. Functionally in terms of implementation, they'd similar to Facets of the Herald/Revenant, but would be more class specific and would confer greater individual bonuses. Obviously these times were pulled out of my behind and I'm not even going to try to theorycraft/excelspreadsheet the effectiveness, but that's just an idea I had in mind for how Soulbeast stances were to function. In conclusion I wanted to say I really like Soulbeast but the stances are total butt. It could also use some more power damage at times too.

@ProtoMarcus.7649 said:Yeah thought of granting resistance on pulse but then the uptime would be super highOne Wolf Pack could benefit from vulnerability too as it increases not just direct damage but condi damage tooDolyak stance is movement related, not damage related - I get that torment is somewhat linked to moving but it is not a movement-impeding condition

It really wouldnt, if 8seconds resistance. By the time the actual effect has finished You'd have like less anyway, as its 2seconds with a 1ICD over 4seconds. So it would be like only a few seconds come the end of the heal. You would only get a max of 8seconds from the start point and remember - counter play would be - stop condi spamming when you see the heal active.

Yeah and Torment is movement impairing, as you are forced to limit your movement or die.