Stacking players breaks immersion — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Stacking players breaks immersion

Hi Guys,
I was trying to formulate what exactly bugs me about GW2 (of which I have been a long running fan, since beta), and I concluded that I hate the concept that in many game espects (raid, fractals, dungeons, even some open world PVE content, and sometimes wvw), you need to be stacked on top of each other, for reason. The reasons are obvious, you get the boons, you get the heals, and it has been the overall tactic to tackle any obstacle in PVE settings since headstart. But here is my (own and objective) problem with that:

I play videogames to leave behind the real world for a short time, and to immerse myself in a fantasy world, where I can do cool things. I am not necessarily a roleplayer, but I do like immersing myself into the character that I am playing. Which is hard to do in GW2, because you always have to be stacked on top of each other in most instanced content.. which is like... not immersive? I feel weird, when I want to play a Renegade with a shortbow or an Elementalist with a staff and I am standing in mellee range on top of others, the boss hitting my face from less than a meter away. And i know this is more of a complex issue:

Ranged specs should not be more powerful than melee specs. You might be saying "Allright, you are allowed to not stack in not high-end pve content", to which I would say "Fine, but if I want to feel like a legendary archer and conquer some difficult foes, I wish to have the ability to do so, or at least feel like it.

So, my problem is not inherently with the fact that only melee specs are viable in higher end PVE content, but that this aspect of the game, along with many other similar game mechanis virtually make it impossible for you to play as a ranged character. Raids? Forget it, you need to stand close to get the buffs. And I really dislike it.

I guess one way of "solving" this would be to extend the radius of healing and buffing skills, so that ranged players would also get it.

Anyway, I really am not sure if I was the only one with ideas, let me know if anyone else feels "wrong" for always (always, always, always...) stacking on top of other players whenever s/he wants to do something other than kill open world pve mobs.

Comments

  • Loosmaster.8263Loosmaster.8263 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 11, 2019

    The only way I can see this being functional is to be in a party/squad and have unrestricted(max range of skill) boon range. Outside of those it should remain the same and you get any residual boons by chance.

    Fàther - Create a mount then kill it until it's more useless than PvE. "Smart"
    Tactical Killers
    Server(DR)

  • zallesz.1650zallesz.1650 Member ✭✭

    @ArcanistSeven.8720 said:
    i dont think MMO's are for you then. if you want to feel like a kitten archer you should try single player RPG's.

    Hey there, thanks for the note, but last I noticed in all other MMO-s I am playing or used to play, it was never an issue. Am I missing something?

  • @zallesz.1650 said:

    @ArcanistSeven.8720 said:
    i dont think MMO's are for you then. if you want to feel like a kitten archer you should try single player RPG's.

    Hey there, thanks for the note, but last I noticed in all other MMO-s I am playing or used to play, it was never an issue. Am I missing something?

    What he means is ... GW2 is no ordinary MMO or you just need your personnal Dps to be effective or that you can just target your healing skills from far away as a healer.

    There's no such things as targeting a single ally in GW2. The "tank" is a class that provides advantages too and needs the healing and the other advantages from other classes. These skills doesn't have huge area of application so the best way players have found to be the most effective is to stack on top of each other.

    NB : notice that some game mechanics requires you to be split from the party . so it really depends. Some easy content (such as fractals low lvl) doesn't force you to stack.

    Solution: try to play a selfish class that can benefit from its own buffs to maximize its dps.

  • TheGrimm.5624TheGrimm.5624 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I agree but for different reasons, never been a fan of stacking. But I disagree that the answer is extend boon range, instead I would side on the side of add collision. Make positioning matter. Now as most will side, downside to collision is increase in latency, but would still like to see tests run. Same applies to WvW, you are in a fight and losing, you shouldn't be able to just run back thru your side to escape, you pushed to the front, there you stand.

    Envy the Madman his musing when Death comes to make fools of us all.
    De Mortuis Nil Nisi Bonum.
    TheGrimm PoTBS/GW1/WAR/Rift/GW2/MWO/ESO/WoT/WoW/D2/HoTS/Civ6/CU/AoC

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @zallesz.1650 said:
    So, my problem is not inherently with the fact that only melee specs are viable in higher end PVE content, but that this aspect of the game, along with many other similar game mechanis virtually make it impossible for you to play as a ranged character. Raids? Forget it, you need to stand close to get the buffs. And I really dislike it.

    I play ranged characters in Raids just fine I don't know what you are talking about.

  • phokus.8934phokus.8934 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @TheGrimm.5624 said:
    I agree but for different reasons, never been a fan of stacking. But I disagree that the answer is extend boon range, instead I would side on the side of add collision. Make positioning matter. Now as most will side, downside to collision is increase in latency, but would still like to see tests run. Same applies to WvW, you are in a fight and losing, you shouldn't be able to just run back thru your side to escape, you pushed to the front, there you stand.

    Player collision is a horrible idea. Surely you can see why it isn’t a good idea, right?

  • This is only true for T4 and raids. Any other content, you don't need buffs to complete.

  • Skotlex.7580Skotlex.7580 Member ✭✭✭

    @phokus.8934 said:

    @TheGrimm.5624 said:
    I agree but for different reasons, never been a fan of stacking. But I disagree that the answer is extend boon range, instead I would side on the side of add collision. Make positioning matter. Now as most will side, downside to collision is increase in latency, but would still like to see tests run. Same applies to WvW, you are in a fight and losing, you shouldn't be able to just run back thru your side to escape, you pushed to the front, there you stand.

    Player collision is a horrible idea. Surely you can see why it isn’t a good idea, right?

    Alternatively, we could uncap the number of targets per aoe, that would give opponents reason to not stack too much.

    For instance, in open world, if bosses could just down all 30 players which are in melee range with a few blows, people would notice that stacking isn't the better tactic anymore.

    Longer boon range (I think 600 is enough) + aoe target limit increase = better to stack less.

  • zallesz.1650zallesz.1650 Member ✭✭

    @gateless gate.8406 said:
    This is only true for T4 and raids. Any other content, you don't need buffs to complete.

    Exactly. Now let's say I have an hour to day I could freely spend on playing GW2, and a longer one maybe on a raid night. I can either do profitable, high end, value-generating content such as raids and T4, where I am forced to stack and play the game in the META mentality, or I could do fun stuff, open world stuff, events, exploration, etc. where I am not required to play "in one single very specific way" and I get to play however I want. One is enjoyable, the other is rewarding. Here lies my problem.
    Obviously not the end of the world, but kitten I wish I could do both at the same time.

  • TheGrimm.5624TheGrimm.5624 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 11, 2019

    @phokus.8934 said:

    @TheGrimm.5624 said:
    I agree but for different reasons, never been a fan of stacking. But I disagree that the answer is extend boon range, instead I would side on the side of add collision. Make positioning matter. Now as most will side, downside to collision is increase in latency, but would still like to see tests run. Same applies to WvW, you are in a fight and losing, you shouldn't be able to just run back thru your side to escape, you pushed to the front, there you stand.

    Player collision is a horrible idea. Surely you can see why it isn’t a good idea, right?

    No I don't. Prefer games with it. With it; PvE, if you push in too close and don't know when to pull back you pay for it. In WvW if you are support and get out of position, you pay for it. In either if you are too squishy and shouldn't be that lightly armored you pay the price for it. The only downsides to collision is lag. Now a counter to this is but I wouldn't be able to get a hit in on a PvE target. But with collision someone that runs full in moves outside of the range of support and will need to pull back out or be dropped by the target since they moved outside of the range of their boons and buffs, but again risk versus reward. In more balanced logic range should do less because less risk less damage, tanks are tanks because they should have toughness/vit and should be able to take some hits. Support should live in that mid ground. DPS shouldn't just abel to stand and take it because they just stand in it. To me one of the reasons dungeons failed is because stacking mitigated the code by allowing people to stand still on top of each other and not move. There is no lasting gameplay to that, it's boring and there is no replayability. In WvW if you run full in there you can always run back out. Some of the best game play in prior games was in holding a line, range supporting your lines from behind and you melee looking to turn flanks and get to the backlines. Here we can just zerg stack. Take World Bosses, they would probably be a lot more challenging if everyone didn't just stack in the same spot and spam 1. But I do agree that's not for everyone, which is why we don't have it here. Plus the player-base doesn't have the mindset for it and people don't do well with change and this would be a big one.

    Envy the Madman his musing when Death comes to make fools of us all.
    De Mortuis Nil Nisi Bonum.
    TheGrimm PoTBS/GW1/WAR/Rift/GW2/MWO/ESO/WoT/WoW/D2/HoTS/Civ6/CU/AoC

  • TheGrimm.5624TheGrimm.5624 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Skotlex.7580 said:

    @phokus.8934 said:

    @TheGrimm.5624 said:
    I agree but for different reasons, never been a fan of stacking. But I disagree that the answer is extend boon range, instead I would side on the side of add collision. Make positioning matter. Now as most will side, downside to collision is increase in latency, but would still like to see tests run. Same applies to WvW, you are in a fight and losing, you shouldn't be able to just run back thru your side to escape, you pushed to the front, there you stand.

    Player collision is a horrible idea. Surely you can see why it isn’t a good idea, right?

    Alternatively, we could uncap the number of targets per aoe, that would give opponents reason to not stack too much.

    For instance, in open world, if bosses could just down all 30 players which are in melee range with a few blows, people would notice that stacking isn't the better tactic anymore.

    Longer boon range (I think 600 is enough) + aoe target limit increase = better to stack less.

    In PvE, Bosses should have no cap on targets they can hit in range, that would be a good change. In WvW I think they also capped it since the engine couldn't take the calculations which is also why collision would fail since don't think the engine could take it. But at least freeing the PvE bosses would be a good change.

    Envy the Madman his musing when Death comes to make fools of us all.
    De Mortuis Nil Nisi Bonum.
    TheGrimm PoTBS/GW1/WAR/Rift/GW2/MWO/ESO/WoT/WoW/D2/HoTS/Civ6/CU/AoC

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @gateless gate.8406 said:
    This is only true for T4 and raids. Any other content, you don't need buffs to complete.

    I thought this was about ranged specs, not buffs. What's the problem with buffs? The OP can't dodge?

  • phokus.8934phokus.8934 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @TheGrimm.5624 said:

    @phokus.8934 said:

    @TheGrimm.5624 said:
    I agree but for different reasons, never been a fan of stacking. But I disagree that the answer is extend boon range, instead I would side on the side of add collision. Make positioning matter. Now as most will side, downside to collision is increase in latency, but would still like to see tests run. Same applies to WvW, you are in a fight and losing, you shouldn't be able to just run back thru your side to escape, you pushed to the front, there you stand.

    Player collision is a horrible idea. Surely you can see why it isn’t a good idea, right?

    No I don't. Prefer games with it. With it; PvE, if you push in too close and don't know when to pull back you pay for it. In WvW if you are support and get out of position, you pay for it. In either if you are too squishy and shouldn't be that lightly armored you pay the price for it. The only downsides to collision is lag. Now a counter to this is but I wouldn't be able to get a hit in on a PvE target. But with collision someone that runs full in moves outside of the range of support and will need to pull back out or be dropped by the target since they moved outside of the range of their boons and buffs, but again risk versus reward. In more balanced logic range should do less because less risk less damage, tanks are tanks because they should have toughness/vit and should be able to take some hits. Support should live in that mid ground. DPS shouldn't just abel to stand and take it because they just stand in it. To me one of the reasons dungeons failed is because stacking mitigated the code by allowing people to stand still on top of each other and not move. There is no lasting gameplay to that, it's boring and there is no replayability. In WvW if you run full in there you can always run back out. Some of the best game play in prior games was in holding a line, range supporting your lines from behind and you melee looking to turn flanks and get to the backlines. Here we can just zerg stack. Take World Bosses, they would probably be a lot more challenging if everyone didn't just stack in the same spot and spam 1. But I do agree that's not for everyone, which is why we don't have it here. Plus the player-base doesn't have the mindset for it and people don't do well with change and this would be a big one.

    I’m only going to respond to your “the only downside is lag.” That’s not even remotely accurate. You can’t see the griefing potential with this? Look no further than fractals with SA.

  • Goettel.4389Goettel.4389 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Just imagine it's part of how this particular make-belief world works.

  • @Goettel.4389 said:
    Just imagine it's part of how this particular make-belief world works.

    Indeed

    If you are immersed in Tyria, and accept that there are boons in its universe, then it makes sense that clever combatants would learn to stack rather than spread out. In my view, it's only weird if one still has one foot stuck in some other game.

    Mind you: that doesn't mean that players have to enjoy the mechanic; the OP doesn't like stacking and that's perfectly fine. Just make that the argument; there's no need to justify a personal preference by appealing to some imaginary moral highground of "immersion."

    "Face the facts. Then act on them. It's ...the only doctrine I have to offer you, & it's harder than you'd think, because I swear humans seem hardwired to do anything but. Face the facts. Don't pray, don't wish, ...FACE THE FACTS. THEN act." — Quellcrist Falconer

  • Hannelore.8153Hannelore.8153 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 11, 2019

    To be fair, most skills have a decent range that you don't actually have to stack on top of each other, this is just an old misconception. You can spread out a bit and still receive the benefits, and it actually benefits your party since it reduces the impact of enemy AoE's, etc.

    My guild always moves around constantly in circles around opponents (its a habit from older games), and it works just fine. It help keeps the same player from being targeted all the time, spread boons, cleanses and heals out evenly, and makes alot of enemy skills miss entirely.

    If anything I would say that stacking invites excessive damage to the party, plus making a habit of standing still all of the time whacking the enemy except when its time to dodge makes for boring and bad gameplay long-term, players who become used to this end up unable to handle more unpredictable and "noisy" encounters like some open-world bosses where that playstyle leads to frequent downs.

    Which is part of why raiders are kind-of bad in open-world PvE, and I don't even want to think of what they're like in PvP.

    Daisuki[SUKI] Founder | Mains Mariyuuna | ♀♥♀
    Akarissa, Auratashi, Hanamariko, Kanasuki, Kokonomori, Korisaki, Manakuro, Sarehtori, Terakura, Yukianna
    Alice Ryven, Alisha Kei, Baxia Tres, Caelia Flamestrike, Kiryka Darkwillow, Rikka Rowe, Tawni Rosemary, Thea Lux

  • Westenev.5289Westenev.5289 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 11, 2019

    @Hannelore.8153 said:
    Which is part of why raiders are kind-of bad in open-world PvE, and I don't even want to think of what they're like in PvP.

    ... What?

    Endgame raiders can't pvp or play open world because stacking has made them unable to dodge or position themselves correctly around a boss? I don't think so.

    In this game, buffs are generally given in a 360, 600 or 900 unit radii. This is swell if everyone is playing melee around the boss, but causes problems when your unbuffed weaver snipes from outfield while your dedicated support tries to keep everyone healthy and buffed. It's even more of a problem when said weaver gets poked to death by adds, and needs to be res'ed.

    Stacking is ideal in instanced content because it's the most efficiant way to res allies, maintain buffs (like protection, stability, condi clears, distortion, aegis, regeneration, among other things) and control mob and boss positioning (stacking in a corner will cause all hostiles to gather in one place, leading to faster clears. This is especially important since cc doesnt work on bosses anymore, so you can't pull that ghost graveling in ascalon p2 over a baited trap using skills). Despite this, you still need to position yourself and dodge to avoid damage.

    Fractal and Raid builds fall off in open world because battles are dictated by sheer numbers. This means buffs are going to be wasted on players mashing 1 on their quest to tag every farmable mob for loot, and focusing on single target dps will lose you loot. You're almost always better off just pulling out a ranged weapon and tab-targeting adds or the boss for loot.

    Personally, I've always seen stacking as somewhat boring... But we really have no viable alternitive beyond using modern broken builds which can selfishly boon themselves and dps.

  • @zallesz.1650 said:

    @gateless gate.8406 said:
    This is only true for T4 and raids. Any other content, you don't need buffs to complete.

    Exactly. Now let's say I have an hour to day I could freely spend on playing GW2, and a longer one maybe on a raid night. I can either do profitable, high end, value-generating content such as raids and T4, where I am forced to stack and play the game in the META mentality, or I could do fun stuff, open world stuff, events, exploration, etc. where I am not required to play "in one single very specific way" and I get to play however I want. One is enjoyable, the other is rewarding. Here lies my problem.
    Obviously not the end of the world, but kitten I wish I could do both at the same time.

    You can make plenty of money in the open world. In fact, it's one of the best ways to make money.

    Anyways, why not look at it a bit differently? Instead of "I'm forced to play X way," think "I choose to play in the most optimal way, because this content is challenging." Most MMO raids incorporate positional requirements -- it's part of their challenge. More generally, optimizing and improving play is one of the basic elements of most videogames -- as you play the game more, you start to learn ways to improve your play.

  • Zephire.8049Zephire.8049 Member ✭✭✭

    @AlexndrTheGreat.8310 said:

    @TheGrimm.5624 said:

    @phokus.8934 said:

    @TheGrimm.5624 said:
    I agree but for different reasons, never been a fan of stacking. But I disagree that the answer is extend boon range, instead I would side on the side of add collision. Make positioning matter. Now as most will side, downside to collision is increase in latency, but would still like to see tests run. Same applies to WvW, you are in a fight and losing, you shouldn't be able to just run back thru your side to escape, you pushed to the front, there you stand.

    Player collision is a horrible idea. Surely you can see why it isn’t a good idea, right?

    No I don't. Prefer games with it. With it; PvE, if you push in too close and don't know when to pull back you pay for it. In WvW if you are support and get out of position, you pay for it. In either if you are too squishy and shouldn't be that lightly armored you pay the price for it. The only downsides to collision is lag. Now a counter to this is but I wouldn't be able to get a hit in on a PvE target. But with collision someone that runs full in moves outside of the range of support and will need to pull back out or be dropped by the target since they moved outside of the range of their boons and buffs, but again risk versus reward. In more balanced logic range should do less because less risk less damage, tanks are tanks because they should have toughness/vit and should be able to take some hits. Support should live in that mid ground. DPS shouldn't just abel to stand and take it because they just stand in it. To me one of the reasons dungeons failed is because stacking mitigated the code by allowing people to stand still on top of each other and not move. There is no lasting gameplay to that, it's boring and there is no replayability. In WvW if you run full in there you can always run back out. Some of the best game play in prior games was in holding a line, range supporting your lines from behind and you melee looking to turn flanks and get to the backlines. Here we can just zerg stack. Take World Bosses, they would probably be a lot more challenging if everyone didn't just stack in the same spot and spam 1. But I do agree that's not for everyone, which is why we don't have it here. Plus the player-base doesn't have the mindset for it and people don't do well with change and this would be a big one.

    It’s an MMO. If you give people model collision, we can just stand in front of an entrance and hallway and now we blocked it off, can’t get through because of model collision. Adding it is a terrible idea for an MMO.

    I can't find the video of it, but people were trolling people finishing the tutorial in Queensdale by using the random plant tonic to turn into the pineapple blob in the doorway. Even without collision, there were tons of new players running around trying to find out where to go because to a new player it looked like scenery.

    Anet actually moved the post-tutorial spawn point outside of the building because of people like that trolling people who did not know better and GW2 may have been their first MMO, so they would have zero frame of reference.

    Also can you imagine trying to get to a bank or event merchant if there was collision? People would form a ring around them and AFK. A new zone with only one physical entrance? People standing in the way. Fighting a world boss and are melee? Hope you enjoy watching the fight and getting no credit. WvW? Watch as the troll meta shifts to be unkillable tank characters that just walk in a wall and prevent people from getting anywhere.

    Player collision in MMO's is a bad idea.

  • Tekoneiric.6817Tekoneiric.6817 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @phokus.8934 said:

    @TheGrimm.5624 said:
    I agree but for different reasons, never been a fan of stacking. But I disagree that the answer is extend boon range, instead I would side on the side of add collision. Make positioning matter. Now as most will side, downside to collision is increase in latency, but would still like to see tests run. Same applies to WvW, you are in a fight and losing, you shouldn't be able to just run back thru your side to escape, you pushed to the front, there you stand.

    Player collision is a horrible idea. Surely you can see why it isn’t a good idea, right?

    Yea, all that pushing and shoving would create an annoying experience. Imagine trying to get to a merchant or vendor.

  • joneirikb.7506joneirikb.7506 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Despite all the bad consequences, I must admit I'd still love to see collision-detection. It would just honestly be that much fun in WvW.

    (Also, enable pushing them at cripple speed, solves some of the problems, and creates more interesting new ones like pushing others off cliffs! yay!)

    But yes, the receipt for instantly killing off WvW for good:

    • Collision Detection
    • Remove target limit on all aoe
    • Enable friendly fire

    There wouldn't be enough popcorn in the whole world.

    Elrik Noj (Norn Guardian, Kaineng [SIN][Owls])
    "Understanding is a three edged sword: your side, their side, and the truth." - J. Michael Straczynski
    Currently playing: Planescape Torment, Divinity Original Sin 2, Zelda BotW

  • Dawdler.8521Dawdler.8521 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @joneirikb.7506 said:
    But yes, the receipt for instantly killing off WvW for good:

    • Collision Detection
    • Remove target limit on all aoe
    • Enable friendly fire

    There wouldn't be enough popcorn in the whole world.

    What the kitten are you talking about, WvWers have been requesting this for years. Everyone loves it. And if I know WvWers, they would never suggest any ideas on the forums that could possibly kill off WvW.

  • crepuscular.9047crepuscular.9047 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 12, 2019

    the dev never designed player stacking in mind, the game was built on the idea of being self sufficient

    stack is just something that players figured out how to steam roll mobs from the old dungeon days, and basically stuck with the player community ever since; the dev have made mechanics where stacking does not make sense already

    [RIP Fashion Wars 2005-2018]     [TTS] [KA] [SI]     [RIP Fashion Wars 2005-2018]
    Praise the Inevitable Eternal Transcendent King Palawa Ignacious Joko, the Beloved and Feared Undying Eternal Monarch of All !!!
    ... til Aurene ate him for dessert 😭
  • Gop.8713Gop.8713 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dawdler.8521 said:

    @joneirikb.7506 said:
    But yes, the receipt for instantly killing off WvW for good:

    • Collision Detection
    • Remove target limit on all aoe
    • Enable friendly fire

    There wouldn't be enough popcorn in the whole world.

    What the kitten are you talking about, WvWers have been requesting this for years. Everyone loves it. And if I know WvWers, they would never suggest any ideas on the forums that could possibly kill off WvW.

    I would be tempted to pay good money for friendly fire week . . .

  • Tsakhi.8124Tsakhi.8124 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 12, 2019

    Part of what I'm seeing is that individuality is not being valued paired with people that insist this is a MMORPG. They're both , in my opinion, viable arguments. However, I wouldn't ever want to see the ability to shove people around. That's bullying tactics and can easily be exploited. Stacking is not necessary as much as it's preferred. That said, I can sympathize with not really wanting to do what ever is meta, when all you want to do is escape. To me, stacking can be replaced by strategic placing (as mentioned above). There's kind of a disconnect between desired and necessity. Sorry if this is kind of muddled or doesn't make sense, my brain doesn't real. XD

    Edit: See, Tsakhi, this is why we can't have nice things... =Gibbs smacks self=

    So now we march, march to your homes.

    Our feet not making a sound: You can never hear a ghost when it roams...

    I eat your Cheetos Paws and steal your sodas, 'cause that's how I roll. (sorry, i'll buy you more.)

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 12, 2019

    @Hannelore.8153 said:
    To be fair, most skills have a decent range that you don't actually have to stack on top of each other, this is just an old misconception. You can spread out a bit and still receive the benefits, and it actually benefits your party since it reduces the impact of enemy AoE's, etc.

    My guild always moves around constantly in circles around opponents (its a habit from older games), and it works just fine. It help keeps the same player from being targeted all the time, spread boons, cleanses and heals out evenly, and makes alot of enemy skills miss entirely.

    You are basically increasing the chance of less people getting hit at the same time since people are not stacked on one spot. Useful when players are incapable of dodging or reacting to boss attack patters or cues (which all open world bosses have) or when no dedicated supports are present. It's better than getting hit, but worse than actually reading the boss and reacting to its attacks.

    @Hannelore.8153 said:
    If anything I would say that stacking invites excessive damage to the party, plus making a habit of standing still all of the time whacking the enemy except when its time to dodge makes for boring and bad gameplay long-term, players who become used to this end up unable to handle more unpredictable and "noisy" encounters like some open-world bosses where that playstyle leads to frequent downs.

    A.) player AND enemy attacks have a target cap. Stacking results in damage getting split among a lot more players which reduces damage to the squad. This is especially noticable in open world bosses where you can overstack a boss making him near harmless. Most world bosses do not hit more than 10-15 targets per attack with very slow attacks overall which causes groups of bigger size to simply share the hits amongst each other.

    B.) stacking shares defensive boons and again reduces damage taken as far as being able to prettty much face tank anything in open world with a group of 5 people.

    C.) stacking causes less erratic behavior of world bosses which results for easier dodges of their attacks and manipulating their patters. Obviously only relevant for players who actually react to boss attacks

    Best example for A-C is Chak Gerent which can be killed by 5-10 people in 1/2 a phase IF they boonshare, have high dps from specializing and don't have a lot of other people scaling up the event while doing 4k damage. The boss has a very easy readable pattern, his attacks can be dodged or side-stepped and if desired the boss can be manipulated into a corner for best damage uptime.

    @Hannelore.8153 said:
    Which is part of why raiders are kind-of bad in open-world PvE, and I don't even want to think of what they're like in PvP.

    Yeah, I'm not even going to ask where you got this notion since you neither provide any facts to support your claim as well as your previous statements being pretty much incorrect. Raid BUILDS are not ideal for some players for open world content since they are very specialized. Suffice to say, this is a pure learn to play issue and given the arcdps data during meta boss events, I can directly tell you which players were runnign what type of build.

  • @Cyninja.2954 said:
    C.) stacking causes less erratic behavior of world bosses which results for easier dodges of their attacks and manipulating their patters. Obviously only relevant for players who actually react to boss attacks

    Best example for A-C is Chak Gerent which can be killed by 5-10 people in 1/2 a phase IF they boonshare, have high dps from specializing and don't have a lot of other people scaling up the event while doing 4k damage.

    Even simpler example is VB's wyvern matriarch. If people stack, she does not charge. This makes it easier for everyone to flank her, avoiding nearly all her attacks and being available to CC, regardless of what builds people are running or how over-stacked the event is. If people go down (or even if defeated), it's easier to rez them. The event usually ends in 40-60 seconds if players stack; it can take minutes (or occasionally run out of time) if people do not stack.

    "Face the facts. Then act on them. It's ...the only doctrine I have to offer you, & it's harder than you'd think, because I swear humans seem hardwired to do anything but. Face the facts. Don't pray, don't wish, ...FACE THE FACTS. THEN act." — Quellcrist Falconer

  • TheGrimm.5624TheGrimm.5624 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @AlexndrTheGreat.8310 said:

    @TheGrimm.5624 said:

    @phokus.8934 said:

    @TheGrimm.5624 said:
    I agree but for different reasons, never been a fan of stacking. But I disagree that the answer is extend boon range, instead I would side on the side of add collision. Make positioning matter. Now as most will side, downside to collision is increase in latency, but would still like to see tests run. Same applies to WvW, you are in a fight and losing, you shouldn't be able to just run back thru your side to escape, you pushed to the front, there you stand.

    Player collision is a horrible idea. Surely you can see why it isn’t a good idea, right?

    No I don't. Prefer games with it. With it; PvE, if you push in too close and don't know when to pull back you pay for it. In WvW if you are support and get out of position, you pay for it. In either if you are too squishy and shouldn't be that lightly armored you pay the price for it. The only downsides to collision is lag. Now a counter to this is but I wouldn't be able to get a hit in on a PvE target. But with collision someone that runs full in moves outside of the range of support and will need to pull back out or be dropped by the target since they moved outside of the range of their boons and buffs, but again risk versus reward. In more balanced logic range should do less because less risk less damage, tanks are tanks because they should have toughness/vit and should be able to take some hits. Support should live in that mid ground. DPS shouldn't just abel to stand and take it because they just stand in it. To me one of the reasons dungeons failed is because stacking mitigated the code by allowing people to stand still on top of each other and not move. There is no lasting gameplay to that, it's boring and there is no replayability. In WvW if you run full in there you can always run back out. Some of the best game play in prior games was in holding a line, range supporting your lines from behind and you melee looking to turn flanks and get to the backlines. Here we can just zerg stack. Take World Bosses, they would probably be a lot more challenging if everyone didn't just stack in the same spot and spam 1. But I do agree that's not for everyone, which is why we don't have it here. Plus the player-base doesn't have the mindset for it and people don't do well with change and this would be a big one.

    It’s an MMO. If you give people model collision, we can just stand in front of an entrance and hallway and now we blocked it off, can’t get through because of model collision. Adding it is a terrible idea for an MMO.

    We are making different assumptions here. So this entrance and halllway you refer to is a point where there is combat occurring yes. If so yes that hallway doorway you are referring is a chokepoint and you are being defended by your tanks that are infront of you and you are either waiting to swap with them, attacking over them or supporting them, you see the difference. I am referring to combat collison, not open world. People will not block you from your reward chest or your bank. Trolls in combat are dead trolls. If they want to block you from that world boss than they are in the front soaking that damage up, just don't rez them. Other MMOs have collision today, this isn't a new concept in.

    Envy the Madman his musing when Death comes to make fools of us all.
    De Mortuis Nil Nisi Bonum.
    TheGrimm PoTBS/GW1/WAR/Rift/GW2/MWO/ESO/WoT/WoW/D2/HoTS/Civ6/CU/AoC

  • TheGrimm.5624TheGrimm.5624 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Tekoneiric.6817 said:

    @phokus.8934 said:

    @TheGrimm.5624 said:
    I agree but for different reasons, never been a fan of stacking. But I disagree that the answer is extend boon range, instead I would side on the side of add collision. Make positioning matter. Now as most will side, downside to collision is increase in latency, but would still like to see tests run. Same applies to WvW, you are in a fight and losing, you shouldn't be able to just run back thru your side to escape, you pushed to the front, there you stand.

    Player collision is a horrible idea. Surely you can see why it isn’t a good idea, right?

    Yea, all that pushing and shoving would create an annoying experience. Imagine trying to get to a merchant or vendor.

    Why did you spawn that merchant in the open WvW zerg fight? Why are you picturing the collision would be out of combat? We are talking while in combat.

    Envy the Madman his musing when Death comes to make fools of us all.
    De Mortuis Nil Nisi Bonum.
    TheGrimm PoTBS/GW1/WAR/Rift/GW2/MWO/ESO/WoT/WoW/D2/HoTS/Civ6/CU/AoC

  • TheGrimm.5624TheGrimm.5624 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 12, 2019

    Stacking in combat dumbs down the combat and makes it so numbers win. Be that dungeons, fractals, PvE, WvW, PvP. So unless you create some price in stacking it will have an edge. Simple as that. Noted PvP and WvW have higher prices to pay for stacking since the damage comes from other players and might amount to more but in PvE it's typically what negates any coding that's currently there.

    Envy the Madman his musing when Death comes to make fools of us all.
    De Mortuis Nil Nisi Bonum.
    TheGrimm PoTBS/GW1/WAR/Rift/GW2/MWO/ESO/WoT/WoW/D2/HoTS/Civ6/CU/AoC

  • akemi.1403akemi.1403 Member ✭✭

    Maybe you just need a break or a little change.
    Even I may get tired of my SO eventually if I be 24h with him.

  • @TheGrimm.5624 said:

    @AlexndrTheGreat.8310 said:

    @TheGrimm.5624 said:

    @phokus.8934 said:

    @TheGrimm.5624 said:
    I agree but for different reasons, never been a fan of stacking. But I disagree that the answer is extend boon range, instead I would side on the side of add collision. Make positioning matter. Now as most will side, downside to collision is increase in latency, but would still like to see tests run. Same applies to WvW, you are in a fight and losing, you shouldn't be able to just run back thru your side to escape, you pushed to the front, there you stand.

    Player collision is a horrible idea. Surely you can see why it isn’t a good idea, right?

    No I don't. Prefer games with it. With it; PvE, if you push in too close and don't know when to pull back you pay for it. In WvW if you are support and get out of position, you pay for it. In either if you are too squishy and shouldn't be that lightly armored you pay the price for it. The only downsides to collision is lag. Now a counter to this is but I wouldn't be able to get a hit in on a PvE target. But with collision someone that runs full in moves outside of the range of support and will need to pull back out or be dropped by the target since they moved outside of the range of their boons and buffs, but again risk versus reward. In more balanced logic range should do less because less risk less damage, tanks are tanks because they should have toughness/vit and should be able to take some hits. Support should live in that mid ground. DPS shouldn't just abel to stand and take it because they just stand in it. To me one of the reasons dungeons failed is because stacking mitigated the code by allowing people to stand still on top of each other and not move. There is no lasting gameplay to that, it's boring and there is no replayability. In WvW if you run full in there you can always run back out. Some of the best game play in prior games was in holding a line, range supporting your lines from behind and you melee looking to turn flanks and get to the backlines. Here we can just zerg stack. Take World Bosses, they would probably be a lot more challenging if everyone didn't just stack in the same spot and spam 1. But I do agree that's not for everyone, which is why we don't have it here. Plus the player-base doesn't have the mindset for it and people don't do well with change and this would be a big one.

    It’s an MMO. If you give people model collision, we can just stand in front of an entrance and hallway and now we blocked it off, can’t get through because of model collision. Adding it is a terrible idea for an MMO.

    We are making different assumptions here. So this entrance and halllway you refer to is a point where there is combat occurring yes. If so yes that hallway doorway you are referring is a chokepoint and you are being defended by your tanks that are infront of you and you are either waiting to swap with them, attacking over them or supporting them, you see the difference. I am referring to combat collison, not open world. People will not block you from your reward chest or your bank. Trolls in combat are dead trolls. If they want to block you from that world boss than they are in the front soaking that damage up, just don't rez them. Other MMOs have collision today, this isn't a new concept in.

    Even in WvW, there’s areas outside of combat that you can block. Get a group to all stand around the bank NPC? Great, now I can’t access the bank and have to switch maps, exit the mists, or use a vendor to access my bank. These situations is why it’s not in the game. Anet’s core philosophy is “we don’t want people to feel hindered by being around other players”. They don’t want you to feel like the fact that some other person is nearby is going to negatively effect your gameplay.

    They can’t simply have a toggle in WvW where “this area” has collision and “this area” does not, because areas where one expects to use collision for combat is also an area not used for combat.

  • TheGrimm.5624TheGrimm.5624 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @AlexndrTheGreat.8310 said:
    Even in WvW, there’s areas outside of combat that you can block.

    If you are blocked it means you are in combat. I am not talking out of combat collision. The engine and game design not being able to handle it is a different story.

    Envy the Madman his musing when Death comes to make fools of us all.
    De Mortuis Nil Nisi Bonum.
    TheGrimm PoTBS/GW1/WAR/Rift/GW2/MWO/ESO/WoT/WoW/D2/HoTS/Civ6/CU/AoC

  • Aplethoraof.2643Aplethoraof.2643 Member ✭✭✭

    @zallesz.1650 said:

    @gateless gate.8406 said:
    This is only true for T4 and raids. Any other content, you don't need buffs to complete.

    Exactly. Now let's say I have an hour to day I could freely spend on playing GW2, and a longer one maybe on a raid night. I can either do profitable, high end, value-generating content such as raids and T4, where I am forced to stack and play the game in the META mentality, or I could do fun stuff, open world stuff, events, exploration, etc. where I am not required to play "in one single very specific way" and I get to play however I want. One is enjoyable, the other is rewarding. Here lies my problem.
    Obviously not the end of the world, but kitten I wish I could do both at the same time.

    So. . .on the one end, you (seem to) have a hard-core player mentality (with only one hour/day of game time?) where you want to maximize your efficiency for getting rewards (which does require some sacrifices to personal freedom to play how you want, even in single-player games).

    And on the other hand, you care about your immersion into the game world?

    It doesn't seem like these two philosophies mesh well to me. You pick one (playing casually like your available time would suggest, role-play like you might in a single-player RPG, do some open world events and have fun) vs (grinding hardcore for an hour every-day. For what end? To power up your character for future hard-core grinds? Because apart from those Fracs and Raids, you only need exotics. Pretty much a self-feeding loop of grinding contained only to a small subset of the game).

    Also. . .how would you even raid with only an hour or so of play-time? Are raids that short? Also, you'd need to be flexible with your raid-group, which just might not be possible if you can only play for that short of a window of time.

    Do you want a balanced GW2? Then you are obliged to unironically agree with this suggestion!

  • @TheGrimm.5624 said:

    @AlexndrTheGreat.8310 said:
    Even in WvW, there’s areas outside of combat that you can block.

    If you are blocked it means you are in combat. I am not talking out of combat collision. The engine and game design not being able to handle it is a different story.

    There’s still other ways to abuse it when in combat that goes against Anet’s core ideas. People joining into combat and spending time trying to intentionally body block their teammates or cut of your retreat. Anet doesn’t want your teammates to become a nuisance to you.

  • Khisanth.2948Khisanth.2948 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Aplethoraof.2643 said:
    Also. . .how would you even raid with only an hour or so of play-time? Are raids that short? Also, you'd need to be flexible with your raid-group, which just might not be possible if you can only play for that short of a window of time.

    You should probably be able to finish VG in that time but it also has a mechanic that requires stacking :p

    @AlexndrTheGreat.8310 said:
    Anet doesn’t want your teammates to become a nuisance to you.

    Tell that to whoever made the latest version of Social Awkwardness and keep in mind that this originally could have been combined with Slipper Slope ...

  • @Khisanth.2948 said:

    @Aplethoraof.2643 said:
    Also. . .how would you even raid with only an hour or so of play-time? Are raids that short? Also, you'd need to be flexible with your raid-group, which just might not be possible if you can only play for that short of a window of time.

    You should probably be able to finish VG in that time but it also has a mechanic that requires stacking :p

    @AlexndrTheGreat.8310 said:
    Anet doesn’t want your teammates to become a nuisance to you.

    Tell that to whoever made the latest version of Social Awkwardness and keep in mind that this originally could have been combined with Slipper Slope ...

    SA is an exception because it’s intended to be an extra difficulty/mechanic in instanced content. It’s reason for being added was to be a nuisance, not because it’s a core design decision.

©2010–2018 ArenaNet, LLC. All rights reserved. Guild Wars, Guild Wars 2, Heart of Thorns, Guild Wars 2: Path of Fire, ArenaNet, NCSOFT, the Interlocking NC Logo, and all associated logos and designs are trademarks or registered trademarks of NCSOFT Corporation. All other trademarks are the property of their respective owners.