Elite specializations, totally not an addition over core. — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Elite specializations, totally not an addition over core.

Shao.7236Shao.7236 Member ✭✭✭
edited July 11, 2019 in Mesmer

Cutting the chase, why is that Core have to be overshadowed by an extra skill/utility that just improves the already super new and reworked mechanics of encouraging "Active" gameplay and totally not spam of one very specific function that allows to be even more passive because there's not enough glamour on the screen already!

I am totally for having Mirage that can evade at anytime, but why does it deserve to be invulnerable on demand still exactly? Same for Chronomancer, why would you deserve to use anything that you just did twice when you already get to use a shield or go back in time? Where's the trade off in this? As Mirage I still get to evade anytime, spam clones with basically no effort AND be invulnerable still?! Why would I even bother to do anything else!

There is so much potential for more "skillful" plays but we have to keep things cheesy too I guess? It just goes beyond me, maybe I'm too stupid for not understanding that elites were supposed to be alternatives and not additions that made everything easier.

My take is, if Distortion was perhaps replaced to be more of a Core only thing rather than just being kept with all the already powerful alternatives the elites are, maybe people would complain less about the rework that basically made having 3 clones up super player friendly! Because I remember when I first started playing, I often heard it was actually a feat to have 3 clones up.

It would be really awesome to have someone to explain me why it was under Anets decision to take such a biased decision. Can't just be to appeal players to make more money, we all heard that one.

Comments

  • Mesmers are going to see a nerf similar to what thieves received (Steal -> Swipe). It's not a matter of "If" as much as it is a matter of "when."

    "Self awareness is knowing when you're sitting at the throne of ignorance." --Leo G.

  • Delofasht.4231Delofasht.4231 Member ✭✭✭

    Personally, I feel that Core Mesmer just needs to get a passive effect that is turned off when choosing an Elite specialization. Maybe a static reduction to Illusion creating skills, so many skills from a Core Mesmer would happen more frequently, but they hit less hard overall. Could be good for all the skills like Phase Retreat and Leap/Swap, even better with weapon traits to reduce cooldowns further.

  • Curunen.8729Curunen.8729 Member ✭✭✭✭

    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/81729/upcoming-balance-notes

    See here for Chrono Shatter changes.

    Hopefully Mirage gets some similar attention in the patch after this.

    My ears, how are you! | Kourna Jackrabbit for default Springer

  • Lincolnbeard.1735Lincolnbeard.1735 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Curunen.8729 said:
    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/81729/upcoming-balance-notes

    See here for Chrono Shatter changes.

    Hopefully Mirage gets some similar attention in the patch after this.

    Mirage got its trade off too. 66% speed while on mc instead of superspeed, which means even walking forward your dodge covers less distance than a regular dodge.

    The degenerate

  • Curunen.8729Curunen.8729 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

    @Curunen.8729 said:
    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/81729/upcoming-balance-notes

    See here for Chrono Shatter changes.

    Hopefully Mirage gets some similar attention in the patch after this.

    Mirage got its trade off too. 66% speed while on mc instead of superspeed, which means even walking forward your dodge covers less distance than a regular dodge.

    Must admit I seriously didn't understand that change. It's so unnecessary and compared to the multitude of other issues on Mirage that need dealing with seems a waste of effort. :/

    My ears, how are you! | Kourna Jackrabbit for default Springer

  • Shao.7236Shao.7236 Member ✭✭✭

    @Curunen.8729 said:
    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/81729/upcoming-balance-notes

    See here for Chrono Shatter changes.

    Hopefully Mirage gets some similar attention in the patch after this.

    Oh wow, thanks for the heads up, that's what I get for not looking earlier, these are actually great news in term of balance. I am definitely looking forward to that.

    Mirage losing Distortion the same way would just make everything better really, they have very good kitting potential already. Being caught in action shouldn't be left unpunished.

    There has been a lot of gaps filled/removed lately and it should be given to Anet that they are making steps in the right direction. (Notably Revenant Ancient Echo that was long due as even though the old facet of nature was bleh, those are making the level of playing field even again.)

    It really should have been common practice that elites spec trades aspects and not just traits when swapping, the whole entire profession changes afterall.

  • Curunen.8729Curunen.8729 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 11, 2019

    In a nutshell it means old Illusionary Persona is going to be Core and (for now) Mirage only. Chrono is going to be like playing without Illusionary Persona.

    I'd imagine Mirage will also be changed like this in the future - and maybe the "Shatters" will become more like super ambushes or something, I don't know.

    At least it's good to see they're finally willing to try something changing Shatters even if just a little - means that maybe a future elite spec can have completely new interesting F mechanic. It's a small step but on paper in the right direction. Mirage is almost totally ignored this patch, which for me as Mirage main is annoying but I can hope that things get properly dealt with in the future.

    My ears, how are you! | Kourna Jackrabbit for default Springer

  • Pyroatheist.9031Pyroatheist.9031 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Curunen.8729 said:
    In a nutshell it means old Illusionary Persona is going to be Core and (for now) Mirage only. Chrono is going to be like playing without Illusionary Persona.

    Yeah, and playing without IP sucked. There's a reason they made it baseline. Not really looking forward to this change.

    Ohey, I've got a signature

  • Curunen.8729Curunen.8729 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Pyroatheist.9031 said:

    @Curunen.8729 said:
    In a nutshell it means old Illusionary Persona is going to be Core and (for now) Mirage only. Chrono is going to be like playing without Illusionary Persona.

    Yeah, and playing without IP sucked. There's a reason they made it baseline. Not really looking forward to this change.

    True I agree it was always stupid to not be able to use the class F mechanic without clones when they are so easily got rid of.

    But on the other hand I like that in principle Core is to be the classic "Shatter" style, with the elites not being able to play in that style.

    Perhaps if Illusionary Reversion was completely unnerfed back to always returning 1 clone on shatter, and made a minor trait for Chrono - so it would add some consistency with using the chrono shatters. If these notes stay as they are then Chrono really should have better access to clone maintenance.

    In addition CSplit cooldown could be moderately unnerfed, and things like Shield cooldowns. But we'll have to see how it ends up in practice come tuesday - probably going to be some glaring weaknesses as you say from past experience playing without "IP" and all the problems that entailed.

    Would be more comforting if we knew Anet would follow this up quickly with more tweaks, but of course it's likely to be another 3 months before anything significant happens... which is and has always been the most annoying problem with their approach. :/

    My ears, how are you! | Kourna Jackrabbit for default Springer

  • Pyroatheist.9031Pyroatheist.9031 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Curunen.8729 said:

    @Pyroatheist.9031 said:

    @Curunen.8729 said:
    In a nutshell it means old Illusionary Persona is going to be Core and (for now) Mirage only. Chrono is going to be like playing without Illusionary Persona.

    Yeah, and playing without IP sucked. There's a reason they made it baseline. Not really looking forward to this change.

    True I agree it was always stupid to not be able to use the class F mechanic without clones when they are so easily got rid of.

    But on the other hand I like that in principle Core is to be the classic "Shatter" style, with the elites not being able to play in that style.

    Perhaps if Illusionary Reversion was completely unnerfed back to always returning 1 clone on shatter, and made a minor trait for Chrono - so it would add some consistency with using the chrono shatters. If these notes stay as they are then Chrono really should have better access to clone maintenance.

    In addition CSplit cooldown could be moderately unnerfed, and things like Shield cooldowns. But we'll have to see how it ends up in practice come tuesday - probably going to be some glaring weaknesses as you say from past experience playing without "IP" and all the problems that entailed.

    Would be more comforting if we knew Anet would follow this up quickly with more tweaks, but of course it's likely to be another 3 months before anything significant happens... which is and has always been the most annoying problem with their approach. :/

    All those changes you mention would be interesting as compensation for losing distortion.

    Nothing can possibly make up for losing illusionary persona.

    It was a long time ago now, but I do remember build-crafting and playing mesmer back then. You basically had 2 major archetypes of mesmers: Mesmers that pretended shatters didn't exist, and mesmers that used them. The difference between these 2 archetypes was illusionary persona. Shatters were completely unusable without that trait in an extremely broad set of situations, and that has not changed since the beginning of the game.

    At this point, I've pretty much given up on the mesmer class as a whole. It's been unusable in WvW group content for a long time, I already use firebrigade in raids for most fights, and I'm actively trying to figure out how to use firebrigade for the fights we still use chronos on because I just don't want to play the class any more when it feels so bad to play.

    Ohey, I've got a signature

  • Curunen.8729Curunen.8729 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Pyroatheist.9031 said:

    @Curunen.8729 said:

    @Pyroatheist.9031 said:

    @Curunen.8729 said:
    In a nutshell it means old Illusionary Persona is going to be Core and (for now) Mirage only. Chrono is going to be like playing without Illusionary Persona.

    Yeah, and playing without IP sucked. There's a reason they made it baseline. Not really looking forward to this change.

    True I agree it was always stupid to not be able to use the class F mechanic without clones when they are so easily got rid of.

    But on the other hand I like that in principle Core is to be the classic "Shatter" style, with the elites not being able to play in that style.

    Perhaps if Illusionary Reversion was completely unnerfed back to always returning 1 clone on shatter, and made a minor trait for Chrono - so it would add some consistency with using the chrono shatters. If these notes stay as they are then Chrono really should have better access to clone maintenance.

    In addition CSplit cooldown could be moderately unnerfed, and things like Shield cooldowns. But we'll have to see how it ends up in practice come tuesday - probably going to be some glaring weaknesses as you say from past experience playing without "IP" and all the problems that entailed.

    Would be more comforting if we knew Anet would follow this up quickly with more tweaks, but of course it's likely to be another 3 months before anything significant happens... which is and has always been the most annoying problem with their approach. :/

    All those changes you mention would be interesting as compensation for losing distortion.

    Nothing can possibly make up for losing illusionary persona.

    It was a long time ago now, but I do remember build-crafting and playing mesmer back then. You basically had 2 major archetypes of mesmers: Mesmers that pretended shatters didn't exist, and mesmers that used them. The difference between these 2 archetypes was illusionary persona. Shatters were completely unusable without that trait in an extremely broad set of situations, and that has not changed since the beginning of the game.

    At this point, I've pretty much given up on the mesmer class as a whole. It's been unusable in WvW group content for a long time, I already use firebrigade in raids for most fights, and I'm actively trying to figure out how to use firebrigade for the fights we still use chronos on because I just don't want to play the class any more when it feels so bad to play.

    Tbh I'm not sure how the new F1-F3 function in practice - whether it still involves clones running up and doing the same animation or maybe something else. Likely of course it will just be the same.

    But I agree, not wanting to encourage the insanely boring "never use your Shatter skills" gameplay again, which was their whole reason for making IP baseline.

    A possibility is giving Chrono some kind of almost-permanent single clone - which is why I'm thinking it could be through making IR a minor trait and changing slightly how it functions. That would allow Chrono to always be able to use their F1-4 but not actually proc the "Shatter" effect on self.

    My ears, how are you! | Kourna Jackrabbit for default Springer

  • Levetty.1279Levetty.1279 Member ✭✭✭

    Reminded that Mirage already has its trade off, its dodge is much worse then the other classes for actually dodging stuff.

  • zealex.9410zealex.9410 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Levetty.1279 said:
    Reminded that Mirage already has its trade off, its dodge is much worse then the other classes for actually dodging stuff.

    :thinking:

  • Lincolnbeard.1735Lincolnbeard.1735 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @zealex.9410 said:

    @Levetty.1279 said:
    Reminded that Mirage already has its trade off, its dodge is much worse then the other classes for actually dodging stuff.

    :thinking:

    Let me help you with your thinking. The distance traveled even forward by mc with the new nerf is less than a normal dodge and it will be even more awful if you have cripple or chill on you.
    The attack while evading bit doesn't exist anymore, only half in case of 3/4 casts or less of the attack is covered by mc.
    The only thing mc has that's actually good is that you can do it while stunned.

    The degenerate

  • praqtos.9035praqtos.9035 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

    @zealex.9410 said:

    @Levetty.1279 said:
    Reminded that Mirage already has its trade off, its dodge is much worse then the other classes for actually dodging stuff.

    :thinking:

    Let me help you with your thinking. The distance traveled even forward by mc with the new nerf is less than a normal dodge and it will be even more awful if you have cripple or chill on you.
    The attack while evading bit doesn't exist anymore, only half in case of 3/4 casts or less of the attack is covered by mc.
    The only thing mc has that's actually good is that you can do it while stunned.

    Double trade off on mesmer apparently?
    IP and F4 deleted from the chrono, they want to give another trade off on the mirage too? XD

  • Shao.7236Shao.7236 Member ✭✭✭

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

    @zealex.9410 said:

    @Levetty.1279 said:
    Reminded that Mirage already has its trade off, its dodge is much worse then the other classes for actually dodging stuff.

    :thinking:

    Let me help you with your thinking. The distance traveled even forward by mc with the new nerf is less than a normal dodge and it will be even more awful if you have cripple or chill on you.
    The attack while evading bit doesn't exist anymore, only half in case of 3/4 casts or less of the attack is covered by mc.
    The only thing mc has that's actually good is that you can do it while stunned.

    According to wiki, both regular dodge and mirage cloak have the same duration, therefor being able to do it at "anytime" and often due to high endurance regeneration is not even up for argument even if the distance is different, evade frames are evade frames. You also have Blink and Jaunt to make up for it, it is way more than enough to disengage which is something that people often if not always have when playing as Mirage regardless.

    To stop complaining about the clone spam from Phantasm rework, Anet will have to start compensating for the that buff and nerf in other places.

    I'm already seeing people playing core mesmer again with a lot of innovative ways as it should be, I hope that Anet smashes the hammer really hard on Mirage just like they did with the most of the elites, soon to be Soulbeast and Holosmith being another significant difference so that people have to start putting effort playing the game again.

    I'm personally tired of fighting "pro" players that all use the same Mirage build where they can just sit back and play passively because any forth engagement can be used in their favor to punish anyone, ironically the clones after phantasms was supposed to encourage active gameplay and people just became even more lazy abused that opportunity badly.

  • Shao.7236Shao.7236 Member ✭✭✭

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

    @zealex.9410 said:

    @Levetty.1279 said:
    Reminded that Mirage already has its trade off, its dodge is much worse then the other classes for actually dodging stuff.

    :thinking:

    Let me help you with your thinking. The distance traveled even forward by mc with the new nerf is less than a normal dodge and it will be even more awful if you have cripple or chill on you.
    The attack while evading bit doesn't exist anymore, only half in case of 3/4 casts or less of the attack is covered by mc.
    The only thing mc has that's actually good is that you can do it while stunned.

    Double trade off on mesmer apparently?
    IP and F4 deleted from the chrono, they want to give another trade off on the mirage too? XD

    F4 and F5 are merged together and for good purpose. Core F4 is already a very strong skill that didn't need to be accessible twice, especially with how clones are easily spawned now.

  • Delofasht.4231Delofasht.4231 Member ✭✭✭

    IP obsession is what lead to it being core anyhow, it was not the only viable build, just by far the most common because it was easy to play (dodge, press an illusion button, press a shatter, repeat).

    Distance travelled is only relevant in the question of AoEs, where we will now take potentially one tick if we time our dodge well in nearly any AoE, in ALL directions except backward. This seems like a significant buff in a lot of ways, if we consider alternative methods for acquiring superspeed, and couple that with the fact that both can be active, resulting in more forward movespeed AND more strafing and backward movement speeds. We need to stop just viewing everything as a nerf, often it is a lateral shift, meaning a change in function with the same, or nearly so, end result.

    I hate that my favorite builds no longer exist, that year after year I have to give up playing what I have found to be strong in favor of what is popular and thus have to spend months figuring out a new build. Currently, the build I play, or a very slight variation of it, has seen strength in sPvP, which means it is likely to either stay for awhile and be adopted in other game modes, or be deleted completely through serious nerfs (though it is not particularly overpowered because it relies on some condi focused traits).

  • Lincolnbeard.1735Lincolnbeard.1735 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Shao.7236 said:

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

    @zealex.9410 said:

    @Levetty.1279 said:
    Reminded that Mirage already has its trade off, its dodge is much worse then the other classes for actually dodging stuff.

    :thinking:

    Let me help you with your thinking. The distance traveled even forward by mc with the new nerf is less than a normal dodge and it will be even more awful if you have cripple or chill on you.
    The attack while evading bit doesn't exist anymore, only half in case of 3/4 casts or less of the attack is covered by mc.
    The only thing mc has that's actually good is that you can do it while stunned.

    Double trade off on mesmer apparently?
    IP and F4 deleted from the chrono, they want to give another trade off on the mirage too? XD

    F4 and F5 are merged together and for good purpose. Core F4 is already a very strong skill that didn't need to be accessible twice, especially with how clones are easily spawned now.

    F4 and F5 have different goals, F5 is commonly used offensively whereas F4 is purely defensive. Furthermore at F5's end everything gets reset, so it makes 0 sense to merge F4 and F5.

    The degenerate

  • Shao.7236Shao.7236 Member ✭✭✭

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

    @zealex.9410 said:

    @Levetty.1279 said:
    Reminded that Mirage already has its trade off, its dodge is much worse then the other classes for actually dodging stuff.

    :thinking:

    Let me help you with your thinking. The distance traveled even forward by mc with the new nerf is less than a normal dodge and it will be even more awful if you have cripple or chill on you.
    The attack while evading bit doesn't exist anymore, only half in case of 3/4 casts or less of the attack is covered by mc.
    The only thing mc has that's actually good is that you can do it while stunned.

    Double trade off on mesmer apparently?
    IP and F4 deleted from the chrono, they want to give another trade off on the mirage too? XD

    F4 and F5 are merged together and for good purpose. Core F4 is already a very strong skill that didn't need to be accessible twice, especially with how clones are easily spawned now.

    F4 and F5 have different goals, F5 is commonly used offensively whereas F4 is purely defensive. Furthermore at F5's end everything gets reset, so it makes 0 sense to merge F4 and F5.

    That's where you're missing the point, you want every good things with no trade off. That's not how you balance a game.

  • praqtos.9035praqtos.9035 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 14, 2019

    @Shao.7236 said:

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

    @zealex.9410 said:

    @Levetty.1279 said:
    Reminded that Mirage already has its trade off, its dodge is much worse then the other classes for actually dodging stuff.

    :thinking:

    Let me help you with your thinking. The distance traveled even forward by mc with the new nerf is less than a normal dodge and it will be even more awful if you have cripple or chill on you.
    The attack while evading bit doesn't exist anymore, only half in case of 3/4 casts or less of the attack is covered by mc.
    The only thing mc has that's actually good is that you can do it while stunned.

    Double trade off on mesmer apparently?
    IP and F4 deleted from the chrono, they want to give another trade off on the mirage too? XD

    F4 and F5 are merged together and for good purpose. Core F4 is already a very strong skill that didn't need to be accessible twice, especially with how clones are easily spawned now.

    F4 and F5 have different goals, F5 is commonly used offensively whereas F4 is purely defensive. Furthermore at F5's end everything gets reset, so it makes 0 sense to merge F4 and F5.

    That's where you're missing the point, you want every good things with no trade off. That's not how you balance a game.

    Thats how you balance the game: give IP baseline because otherwise mesmer is utter garbage and everyone could kill your clones with 1 autoattack so you never can use your class mechanic, ever. kitten, at least we could boost clone and phantasm HP by 80%(?) back then so they wont be a thin paper.
    It doesnt matter that they merged F4 into F5 or not, they literally take it away and if we want to use good old at least 1s distort we have to waste CS on huge cd? Which class also have 105 seconds cd to his "different way of playing" feature?
    If anything I want to destroy necro shroud,warrior adrenaline, revenant energy,thief initiative and kill soulbeast simultaniously with a pet(or no merge when pet is dead at least) etc. BEFORE THEY CAN USE THEIR STUFF so this could be fair.

  • Lincolnbeard.1735Lincolnbeard.1735 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Shao.7236 said:

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

    @zealex.9410 said:

    @Levetty.1279 said:
    Reminded that Mirage already has its trade off, its dodge is much worse then the other classes for actually dodging stuff.

    :thinking:

    Let me help you with your thinking. The distance traveled even forward by mc with the new nerf is less than a normal dodge and it will be even more awful if you have cripple or chill on you.
    The attack while evading bit doesn't exist anymore, only half in case of 3/4 casts or less of the attack is covered by mc.
    The only thing mc has that's actually good is that you can do it while stunned.

    Double trade off on mesmer apparently?
    IP and F4 deleted from the chrono, they want to give another trade off on the mirage too? XD

    F4 and F5 are merged together and for good purpose. Core F4 is already a very strong skill that didn't need to be accessible twice, especially with how clones are easily spawned now.

    F4 and F5 have different goals, F5 is commonly used offensively whereas F4 is purely defensive. Furthermore at F5's end everything gets reset, so it makes 0 sense to merge F4 and F5.

    That's where you're missing the point, you want every good things with no trade off. That's not how you balance a game.

    If no F4 is a trade-off, why the heck did they removed IP from chrono, or asking the other way why didn't the other professions get a double trade-off too?

    The degenerate

  • Xaylin.1860Xaylin.1860 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 14, 2019

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:
    That's where you're missing the point, you want every good things with no trade off. That's not how you balance a game.

    If no F4 is a trade-off, why the heck did they removed IP from chrono, or asking the other way why didn't the other professions get a double trade-off too?

    Well, some people believe this is the case.

    Some Thieves believe that Swipe is a double trade-off. Most of them conviniently forget about the additional dodge Daredevils gain.
    Some Druids believe that the stat-debuff on the pets are a double trade-off because they forgo other traitlines. Even though CA clearly is an obvious add on.

    I don't mean to judge. Just pointing out that many people still don't get the trade-off thing properly or just don't like it. ;)

    Losing F5 and it being merged with F4 for Chronomancers makes sense. Chronomancers get a new set of Shatter skills which work a bit different, plus, they even ensured we will still be able to trigger Distortion related traits on Chronomancers. I personally agree with this change. It is a trade-off if F-skills are not simple upgrades from baseline Shatters. However, that's probably the reason why they got rid of IP. Instead of balancing numbers they wanted to make sure of them not being an upgrade this way. Here I disagree. It is lazy and breaks things an e-spec should not break.

  • yusayu.3629yusayu.3629 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 14, 2019

    Unpopular(?) opinion: Core specs are boring, and established mechanics/abilities (like Distort) shouldn't be removed from classes.

    Pure core specs are a relic of the past; if you want to make them more viable, feel free to buff them in some way that the elite specializations don't get (though I find that unnecessary, why not just design new elite specs?), but don't nerf elite specs for no reason just to force some kind of "tradeoff".

  • Lincolnbeard.1735Lincolnbeard.1735 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 14, 2019

    @Xaylin.1860 said:

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:
    That's where you're missing the point, you want every good things with no trade off. That's not how you balance a game.

    If no F4 is a trade-off, why the heck did they removed IP from chrono, or asking the other way why didn't the other professions get a double trade-off too?

    Well, some people believe this is the case.

    Some Thieves believe that Swipe is a double trade-off. Most of them conviniently forget about the additional dodge Daredevils gain.
    Some Druids believe that the stat-debuff on the pets are a double trade-off because they forgo other traitlines. Even though CA clearly is an obvious add on.

    I don't mean to judge. Just pointing out that many people still don't get the trade-off thing properly or just don't like it. ;)

    Losing F5 and it being merged with F4 for Chronomancers makes sense. Chronomancers get a new set of Shatter skills which work a bit different, plus, they even ensured we will still be able to trigger Distortion related traits on Chronomancers. I personally agree with this change. It is a trade-off if F-skills are not simple upgrades from baseline Shatters. However, that's probably the reason why they got rid of IP. Instead of balancing numbers they wanted to make sure of them not being an upgrade this way. Here I disagree. It is lazy and breaks things an e-spec should not break.

    There's not another profession that got double nerfed for a trade-off. Thieves always qq, they got unblockable in trade of 600 range and extra and better dodges.
    It's one of the lightest nerfs on these trade off deals, in fact they won more than they lost.

    Now, if F4 got removed for the f5 only, it still sucks and doesn't make any sense, mechanically speaking, to me but I wouldn't mind. But take out 2 things to give a new thing?
    In comparison to thieves it would be like we take our F4 but give you F5 and illusionary reversion baseline.

    Shatters are essentially the same, F1 damage (will get hotfixed depending on bonus on slow - mental anguish+lost time+superiority complex+bonus on slow for one trick pony), F2 confusion F3 daze. With just a little "mehness" on top F1 extra damage on slow, F2 5sec cdr, F3 slow (redundant as hell with delayed reactions and lost time).

    The degenerate

  • Xaylin.1860Xaylin.1860 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 14, 2019

    I didn't say I liked the new F-skills. And I didn't say I thought Thieves were right. ;)

  • Shao.7236Shao.7236 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 15, 2019

    @yusayu.3629 said:
    Unpopular(?) opinion: Core specs are boring, and established mechanics/abilities (like Distort) shouldn't be removed from classes.

    Pure core specs are a relic of the past; if you want to make them more viable, feel free to buff them in some way that the elite specializations don't get (though I find that unnecessary, why not just design new elite specs?), but don't nerf elite specs for no reason just to force some kind of "tradeoff".

    The trade off was Anet statement, elites are not meant to be an upgrade. Just a different way to play your profession. If one elite spec exceed at something, then only the elite spec should be nerfed before the core specs because if you nerf core specs, you punish the entire relevance of the profession with the elite spec itself and other elite specs.

    Imagine being a core player and you're having your fun without bothering much of the meta that you are already balanced in but because the elite spec over there benefits from your core trait better, you'll have to get nerfed because of them. It's 1 step forward, 2 steps back.

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Shao.7236 said:

    @yusayu.3629 said:
    Unpopular(?) opinion: Core specs are boring, and established mechanics/abilities (like Distort) shouldn't be removed from classes.

    Pure core specs are a relic of the past; if you want to make them more viable, feel free to buff them in some way that the elite specializations don't get (though I find that unnecessary, why not just design new elite specs?), but don't nerf elite specs for no reason just to force some kind of "tradeoff".

    The trade off was Anet statement, elites are not meant to be an upgrade. Just a different way to play your profession. If one elite spec exceed at something, then only the elite spec should be nerfed before the core specs because if you nerf core specs, you punish the entire relevance of the profession with the elite spec itself and other elite specs.

    Imagine being a core player and you're having your fun without bothering much of the meta that you are already balanced in but because the elite spec over there benefits from your core trait better, you'll have to get nerfed because of them. It's 1 step forward, 2 steps back.

    They're not, but all such discussions need to keep in mind that there's an inherent tradeoff in that you're giving up a third core traitline, and the mesmer core traitlines are pretty good on the whole. Elite specialisations have brought more, and the current tradeoffs are looking to change that, but even before the current tradeoffs, it was a myth that the elite specialisations had no tradeoffs. It's just that what you gained was usually clearly better than what you gave up, especially on professions which did previously tend to have cases of "these two traitlines have the good stuff and this third one is, well, better than the others I guess..."

    Chronos are essentially being given three tradeoffs - the loss of a core traitline, the loss of Distortion (merging it into CS is not the same thing), and the loss of Illusionary Persona.

  • praqtos.9035praqtos.9035 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 15, 2019

    @Shao.7236 said:

    @yusayu.3629 said:
    Unpopular(?) opinion: Core specs are boring, and established mechanics/abilities (like Distort) shouldn't be removed from classes.

    Pure core specs are a relic of the past; if you want to make them more viable, feel free to buff them in some way that the elite specializations don't get (though I find that unnecessary, why not just design new elite specs?), but don't nerf elite specs for no reason just to force some kind of "tradeoff".

    The trade off was Anet statement, elites are not meant to be an upgrade. Just a different way to play your profession.

    There is many examples where you have close to no trade off or no trade off at all. And basically boost to the class or give way less compared to what they gain

    Imagine being a core player and you're having your fun without bothering much of the meta that you are already balanced in but because the elite spec over there benefits from your core trait better, you'll have to get nerfed because of them. It's 1 step forward, 2 steps back.

    Imagine... JUST imagine.... thats arldy happened with a mesmer MILLION times... chrono overperforming! NERF CORE traits,weapons,utiltiies. MIRAGE EVADE TOO MUCH !1111 NERF CORE traits,weapons.utilities.

  • Lincolnbeard.1735Lincolnbeard.1735 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @draxynnic.3719 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:

    @yusayu.3629 said:
    Unpopular(?) opinion: Core specs are boring, and established mechanics/abilities (like Distort) shouldn't be removed from classes.

    Pure core specs are a relic of the past; if you want to make them more viable, feel free to buff them in some way that the elite specializations don't get (though I find that unnecessary, why not just design new elite specs?), but don't nerf elite specs for no reason just to force some kind of "tradeoff".

    The trade off was Anet statement, elites are not meant to be an upgrade. Just a different way to play your profession. If one elite spec exceed at something, then only the elite spec should be nerfed before the core specs because if you nerf core specs, you punish the entire relevance of the profession with the elite spec itself and other elite specs.

    Imagine being a core player and you're having your fun without bothering much of the meta that you are already balanced in but because the elite spec over there benefits from your core trait better, you'll have to get nerfed because of them. It's 1 step forward, 2 steps back.

    They're not, but all such discussions need to keep in mind that there's an inherent tradeoff in that you're giving up a third core traitline, and the mesmer core traitlines are pretty good on the whole.

    Duel - all trash except deceptive evasion.
    Illusions - all trash except torch cdr.
    Dom - CS, mental anguish and imagined burden are good, rest is meh.
    Inspi - meme traitline.

    The degenerate

  • praqtos.9035praqtos.9035 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

    @draxynnic.3719 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:

    @yusayu.3629 said:
    Unpopular(?) opinion: Core specs are boring, and established mechanics/abilities (like Distort) shouldn't be removed from classes.

    Pure core specs are a relic of the past; if you want to make them more viable, feel free to buff them in some way that the elite specializations don't get (though I find that unnecessary, why not just design new elite specs?), but don't nerf elite specs for no reason just to force some kind of "tradeoff".

    The trade off was Anet statement, elites are not meant to be an upgrade. Just a different way to play your profession. If one elite spec exceed at something, then only the elite spec should be nerfed before the core specs because if you nerf core specs, you punish the entire relevance of the profession with the elite spec itself and other elite specs.

    Imagine being a core player and you're having your fun without bothering much of the meta that you are already balanced in but because the elite spec over there benefits from your core trait better, you'll have to get nerfed because of them. It's 1 step forward, 2 steps back.

    They're not, but all such discussions need to keep in mind that there's an inherent tradeoff in that you're giving up a third core traitline, and the mesmer core traitlines are pretty good on the whole.

    Duel - all trash except deceptive evasion.
    Illusions - all trash except torch cdr.
    Dom - CS, mental anguish and imagined burden are good, rest is meh.
    Inspi - meme traitline.

    Tldr: they are were better long ago before nerfs and nowdays you go for a specific trait rather than entire traitline :D

  • alain.1659alain.1659 Member ✭✭✭

    I would accept all of the new nerfs/changes if they gave glamour trait back. Mesmer has no unique ability now. Thieves with portal (and stealth? Which requires mesmer to use 2 skills), renegade with alacrity. What next? Warrior with clones?

  • yusayu.3629yusayu.3629 Member ✭✭✭

    @Shao.7236 said:

    @yusayu.3629 said:
    Unpopular(?) opinion: Core specs are boring, and established mechanics/abilities (like Distort) shouldn't be removed from classes.

    Pure core specs are a relic of the past; if you want to make them more viable, feel free to buff them in some way that the elite specializations don't get (though I find that unnecessary, why not just design new elite specs?), but don't nerf elite specs for no reason just to force some kind of "tradeoff".

    The trade off was Anet statement, elites are not meant to be an upgrade. Just a different way to play your profession. If one elite spec exceed at something, then only the elite spec should be nerfed before the core specs because if you nerf core specs, you punish the entire relevance of the profession with the elite spec itself and other elite specs.

    Yeah, and I heavily disagree with ANets position. It is a waste of resources to try and balance a boring part of the game.

    Imagine being a core player and you're having your fun without bothering much of the meta that you are already balanced in but because the elite spec over there benefits from your core trait better, you'll have to get nerfed because of them. It's 1 step forward, 2 steps back.

    What core players? Why choose core when you play the actual class in the way it is designed nowadays? Elite classes are more interesting (in general), and shouldn't it be a priority for ANet to keep the player interested by giving them interesting classes?

  • Levetty.1279Levetty.1279 Member ✭✭✭

    @Shao.7236 said:
    Imagine being a core player and you're having your fun without bothering much of the meta that you are already balanced in but because the elite spec over there benefits from your core trait better, you'll have to get nerfed because of them. It's 1 step forward, 2 steps back.

    That's me and literally every Mesmer nerf for the entire life of the game.

  • Shao.7236Shao.7236 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 15, 2019

    @yusayu.3629 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:

    @yusayu.3629 said:
    Unpopular(?) opinion: Core specs are boring, and established mechanics/abilities (like Distort) shouldn't be removed from classes.

    Pure core specs are a relic of the past; if you want to make them more viable, feel free to buff them in some way that the elite specializations don't get (though I find that unnecessary, why not just design new elite specs?), but don't nerf elite specs for no reason just to force some kind of "tradeoff".

    The trade off was Anet statement, elites are not meant to be an upgrade. Just a different way to play your profession. If one elite spec exceed at something, then only the elite spec should be nerfed before the core specs because if you nerf core specs, you punish the entire relevance of the profession with the elite spec itself and other elite specs.

    Yeah, and I heavily disagree with ANets position. It is a waste of resources to try and balance a boring part of the game.

    Imagine being a core player and you're having your fun without bothering much of the meta that you are already balanced in but because the elite spec over there benefits from your core trait better, you'll have to get nerfed because of them. It's 1 step forward, 2 steps back.

    What core players? Why choose core when you play the actual class in the way it is designed nowadays? Elite classes are more interesting (in general), and shouldn't it be a priority for ANet to keep the player interested by giving them interesting classes?

    Core being boring? Because it's called "elite" specialization doesn't mean it's better or more interesting. The idea is to make changes that are significant enough to call the profession by a different name.

    Core is far from being boring. It gives so much creativity that doesn't leave you bound to one very specific thing.

    Maybe you're the type of "MMO" player that only cares for what works best with little effort and no work of your own skill, but there is some people out there that prefer creating something that can work in theory no matter their how hard it is to do because in Guild Wars 2 stats and skills are not the only thing that works in practice, the player actions and decision also do and that's what make the game so unique compared all the others.

    If one thing becomes blatantly better because of literal bad handling the game already existing options, not only should it get nerfed because it's OP but also because it's relevance overshadows anything that could be interesting AND lowers the player skill ceiling as a whole.

    Mirage is one of the most easy profession to sit back and let the work be done for you and it should so be the next to get nerfed in some aspects.

    You can tell me that I sound like a hater, but I love nerfs, even my favorite profession is getting nerfed (Revenant) and I hope that the changes are good enough to keep people from playing cheap, simple minded tricks so that my fights can still be interesting after the years in spend playing this game.

  • In HoT, pretty much every e-spec was an addition OVER the core, and I think that is still rippling far and wide today. On one hand, the game needed some fast freshening up - so making e-specs a BETTER version of core was one way to do it... albeit you could say that if Anet managed to release an xpac sooner, and keep a strict cadence, all of this could possibly be averted.

    Even after Anet changed their mindset, some PoF e-specs are still pretty much additions to the core - Holo and SB kinda come to mind, although to a lesser degree compared to HoT times for sure.

    I don't think some of the design decisions can really be retconned easily... OP e-specs, Mesmer clone/phantasm dichotomy, Necromancer being firmly planted into condi by design, Engineer's kits being kinda-but-kinda-not a profession mechanic, Thieves pretty much not having support options by design... and so on. I have to say, I can't say where most of the changes from today's patch are meant to steer the game, despite the designers prefacing them with their reasoning. I just hope I'll understand the concept while playing, I guess.

  • yusayu.3629yusayu.3629 Member ✭✭✭

    @Shao.7236 said:

    @yusayu.3629 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:

    @yusayu.3629 said:
    Unpopular(?) opinion: Core specs are boring, and established mechanics/abilities (like Distort) shouldn't be removed from classes.

    Pure core specs are a relic of the past; if you want to make them more viable, feel free to buff them in some way that the elite specializations don't get (though I find that unnecessary, why not just design new elite specs?), but don't nerf elite specs for no reason just to force some kind of "tradeoff".

    The trade off was Anet statement, elites are not meant to be an upgrade. Just a different way to play your profession. If one elite spec exceed at something, then only the elite spec should be nerfed before the core specs because if you nerf core specs, you punish the entire relevance of the profession with the elite spec itself and other elite specs.

    Yeah, and I heavily disagree with ANets position. It is a waste of resources to try and balance a boring part of the game.

    Imagine being a core player and you're having your fun without bothering much of the meta that you are already balanced in but because the elite spec over there benefits from your core trait better, you'll have to get nerfed because of them. It's 1 step forward, 2 steps back.

    What core players? Why choose core when you play the actual class in the way it is designed nowadays? Elite classes are more interesting (in general), and shouldn't it be a priority for ANet to keep the player interested by giving them interesting classes?

    Core being boring? Because it's called "elite" specialization doesn't mean it's better or more interesting. The idea is to make changes that are significant enough to call the profession by a different name.

    Core is far from being boring. It gives so much creativity that doesn't leave you bound to one very specific thing.

    Core has by definition fewer mechanics than any elite specialization. All Elite specs add mechanics on top of core. Imo more (interesting) mechanics = more fun. The core talent trees generally give passive bonuses. I prefer an active mechanic (i.e. CS, Ambush attacks, Holoforge) over just another tree of passives.

    Maybe you're the type of "MMO" player that only cares for what works best with little effort and no work of your own skill, but there is some people out there that prefer creating something that can work in theory no matter their how hard it is to do because in Guild Wars 2 stats and skills are not the only thing that works in practice, the player actions and decision also do and that's what make the game so unique compared all the others.

    Elite specs generally require more skill, because they have more mechanics involved. Just compare something like playing DPS Mesmer and DPS Chrono. Holy kitten, not just is Chrono so much more fun to play (CS is a very fun ability in general), but you also have more stuff to play with, AND it feels completely different from any other class. The fact that you're locked into one of your traitlines is kinda balanced by the fact that you have more utility skills to choose from.

    I personally prefer a class with a more stale build if it is much more interesting and difficult to play. I can understand, tho, that some people prefer to have more choices when building their class even if it is much easier and straightforward to play.

    If one thing becomes blatantly better because of literal bad handling the game already existing options, not only should it get nerfed because it's OP but also because it's relevance overshadows anything that could be interesting AND lowers the player skill ceiling as a whole.

    This thread was about Chrono, right? Chrono wasn't better than most other classes, in fact it is nowadays commonly replaced by Firebrigade in raids and fractals. It didn't need a nerf, it was in a good spot. Not to mention that they nerf the class in the worst possible way. I don't care about taking away damage from skills or even boons, but taking away an entire skill is much more annoying for the players to deal with and makes the class feel way less fun. They could've halved Distortion's duration, given it a 1-clone limit and that'd would've been enough of a nerf (but again, why nerf Chrono?!). Imo skill ceiling for Chronos was lowered because of this patch.

    Not to mention the fact that Chrono lost some of its fractal skips because of the 1-clone requirement for CS, which just further reduces skill ceiling and interesting kitten you could do with the class. This falls into the same direction as the portal nerf. Why nerf interesting & unique mechanics; just tone down the damage instead.

    Mirage is one of the most easy profession to sit back and let the work be done for you and it should so be the next to get nerfed in some aspects.

    Why? Mirage is nowhere near a top class in PvP and is one of the more interesting classes for raids, because it's optimal (though not really above average) for some encounters, while being slightly below average for others. That means you can't just play everything with Mirage, which is fine imo.

    You can tell me that I sound like a hater, but I love nerfs, even my favorite profession is getting nerfed (Revenant) and I hope that the changes are good enough to keep people from playing cheap, simple minded tricks so that my fights can still be interesting after the years in spend playing this game.

    Did Rev lose an entire skill? It's not about who gets the nerfs in general (though, again, why nerf Chrono?!), it's about how the nerfs were done. There's a massive difference in how it feels to play the class if you lose one of your more important skills, AND especially one of the skills that made the class unique.

  • Lincolnbeard.1735Lincolnbeard.1735 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 16, 2019

    "Rev can now only swap legends while above 75% energy" . Now please do tell me how much do you love that nerf, because its pretty similar to how chronos got nerfed.

    The degenerate

  • Shao.7236Shao.7236 Member ✭✭✭

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:
    "Rev can now only swap legends while above 75% energy" . Now please do tell me how much do you love that nerf, because its pretty similar to how chronos got nerfed.

    Has to be an elite specialization for starters. So no, not even similar it's in fact pretty backward to what Chronomancer got, you encourage Revenants to disengage rather than setup for attacks. Telling me that I should not be doing anything if I want to play my profession.

    You're acting like Phantasm to Clone wasn't a buff. Which it was, they are cutting corners of the cheese now. Just accept it. Clones are not hard to generate and Phantasms still spawn Clones when killed by players. You're not gonna be missing on any to use them.

  • Lincolnbeard.1735Lincolnbeard.1735 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Shao.7236 said:

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:
    "Rev can now only swap legends while above 75% energy" . Now please do tell me how much do you love that nerf, because its pretty similar to how chronos got nerfed.

    Has to be an elite specialization for starters. So no, not even similar it's in fact pretty backward to what Chronomancer got, you encourage Revenants to disengage rather than setup for attacks. Telling me that I should not be doing anything if I want to play my profession.

    You're acting like Phantasm to Clone wasn't a buff. Which it was, they are cutting corners of the cheese now. Just accept it. Clones are not hard to generate and Phantasms still spawn Clones when killed by players. You're not gonna be missing on any to use them.

    I took your liberty to use F skills under certain conditions the same way ANerf did with chronos.
    You want to setup for burst you have to wait until you have 75% energy back, chronos have to wait till clones are out to setup the burst instead of gs F3 to f1.
    So how are they different, but thanks anyway I know the answer now.

    Regarding phantasms, it was a nerf:
    1 - instead of straight shattering phantasms you have to wait till they convert which takes a ridiculously huge amount of time.
    2 - all phantasms were nerfed except gs and utility ones(which no one bothers to use) , staff dealt huge damage before with an 1hit attack, now it channels and deals way less damage, torch became a huge telegraph skill which takes forever to hit, sword is pathetically bad, before it just poke and was one of the hardest hitting phantasms, now if you walk one step it will miss the attacks (you don't need to dodge just walk it doesn't even hit npcs), focus had synergy with focus 4 it could chunk a good amount of hp, now it takes forever and the damage is split among targets.
    3 - phantasms rework was aimed at pve, not pvp, it became much clunker (read point 1) and did nothing but visual garbage.
    As for the last point already answered above, F3 to f1 burst is dead, the combo all power shatter relies on is dead, thus power shatter is dead. And it deals less damage with the new shatters, 1clone split deals less damage than the IP mind shatter.
    Distortion with 0 clones which was vastly used to avoid burst is dead too.
    And the f5 and F4 combined makes 0 sense. You already get your hp back with f5, no reason to want to avoid damage.

    The degenerate

  • Shao.7236Shao.7236 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 31, 2019

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:
    "Rev can now only swap legends while above 75% energy" . Now please do tell me how much do you love that nerf, because its pretty similar to how chronos got nerfed.

    Has to be an elite specialization for starters. So no, not even similar it's in fact pretty backward to what Chronomancer got, you encourage Revenants to disengage rather than setup for attacks. Telling me that I should not be doing anything if I want to play my profession.

    You're acting like Phantasm to Clone wasn't a buff. Which it was, they are cutting corners of the cheese now. Just accept it. Clones are not hard to generate and Phantasms still spawn Clones when killed by players. You're not gonna be missing on any to use them.

    I took your liberty to use F skills under certain conditions the same way ANerf did with chronos.
    You want to setup for burst you have to wait until you have 75% energy back, chronos have to wait till clones are out to setup the burst instead of gs F3 to f1.
    So how are they different, but thanks anyway I know the answer now.

    Regarding phantasms, it was a nerf:
    1 - instead of straight shattering phantasms you have to wait till they convert which takes a ridiculously huge amount of time.
    2 - all phantasms were nerfed except gs and utility ones(which no one bothers to use) , staff dealt huge damage before with an 1hit attack, now it channels and deals way less damage, torch became a huge telegraph skill which takes forever to hit, sword is pathetically bad, before it just poke and was one of the hardest hitting phantasms, now if you walk one step it will miss the attacks (you don't need to dodge just walk it doesn't even hit npcs), focus had synergy with focus 4 it could chunk a good amount of hp, now it takes forever and the damage is split among targets.
    3 - phantasms rework was aimed at pve, not pvp, it became much clunker (read point 1) and did nothing but visual garbage.
    As for the last point already answered above, F3 to f1 burst is dead, the combo all power shatter relies on is dead, thus power shatter is dead. And it deals less damage with the new shatters, 1clone split deals less damage than the IP mind shatter.
    Distortion with 0 clones which was vastly used to avoid burst is dead too.
    And the f5 and F4 combined makes 0 sense. You already get your hp back with f5, no reason to want to avoid damage.

    If Chronomancer didn't have the liberty in the first place which was unbalanced, you wouldn't be here complaining about it.

    Rev got already tweaked many times with the loss Incensed Response being a night and day difference PvP vs WvW including the minor changes of Impossible Odds and other modifiers such as Roiling Mists. If you want to nerf Rev properly , reduce the endurance generation from Riposting Shadows to 20~15, not erase it's entire existence because in contrast you cannot accept the trade off that was needed by design. Also if Rev gets nerfed that way, Spellbreaker Magebane Tether will have to get nerfed as well to 1 might per second because that's how these 2 get to duel all the time.

    Also I see Phantasm spam all over the place as Phantasmal Disenchanter being the worst offender, so I beg to differ.

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