Best way to balance specializations and core professions is... — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Best way to balance specializations and core professions is...

Crypto.7609Crypto.7609 Member ✭✭
edited July 13, 2019 in PVP

Allow everyone, cores and elites, use all weapons and utilities. For example core necro/reaper can use sourge utilities+torch.
This would remove the huge, incomparable advantages that elites provide compared to other options and will make this game MUUUUCH easier to balance since you guys can then start nerfing individual weapons/traits/utilities without considering the elite spec as a whole.
It's really obvious you guys are in balancing hell right now and this change can help making it much easier to keep an equal playing field.

Comments

  • Stand The Wall.6987Stand The Wall.6987 Member ✭✭✭✭

    would be cool lol.

    you don't know till you know, ya know.

  • Crypto.7609Crypto.7609 Member ✭✭
    edited July 13, 2019

    @Dreddo.9865 said:
    Gather top 50 players representing all professions, discuss balance with them and implement what is agreed. Continue this until a good balance is achieved.

    That doesnt lead to balance cos not all top 50 people play all 9 classes.
    For example for necro players most op classes are ranged mesmer, ranger and thief buids, for mesmers its melle consume plasma thief, for tank rangers and warriors its corrupt boon necroes and so on. So basically everyone is op for everyone in circular way.
    Only players who play all 9 classess can come close to comprehening balance.

  • Dreddo.9865Dreddo.9865 Member ✭✭✭

    @Crypto.7609 said:

    @Dreddo.9865 said:
    Gather top 50 players representing all professions, discuss balance with them and implement what is agreed. Continue this until a good balance is achieved.

    That doesnt lead to balance cos not all top 50 people play all 9 classes.
    For example for necro players most op classes are ranged mesmer, ranger and thief buids, for mesmers its melle consume plasma thief, for tank rangers and warriors its corrupt boon necroes and so on. So basically everyone is op for everyone in circular way.
    Only players who play all 9 classess can come close to comprehening balance.

    On the contrary most top players know exactly how things work and are honest enough to admit balance irregularities even those concerning their classes.

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Dreddo.9865 said:
    Gather top 50 players representing all professions, discuss balance with them and implement what is agreed. Continue this until a good balance is achieved.

    No game in the history of human kind has ever achieved balance this way.

    How are you so sure of that statement? There are examples out there (like ESO) and personally I have been playing Lineage2 in the past (another NCSoft owned title) with a PTS. All content was tested by players (anyone could do that) before release and feedback was given to the developers, thus adjustments were done before the content was released. While a different PvP system (and a far lower player base) the PvP balance was decent without those 'exaggerations' and 'meme builds' found here.

  • Handin.4032Handin.4032 Member ✭✭

    @Dreddo.9865 said:
    Gather top 50 players representing all professions, discuss balance with them and implement what is agreed. Continue this until a good balance is achieved.

    How do you get the top 50? Top 50 pvp? So then the balance might be decent for Pvp but horrible for WvW or PvE. How do you get top 50 in PvE? Or top 50 in WvW?

  • Aeolus.3615Aeolus.3615 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 13, 2019

    @Dreddo.9865 said:
    Gather top 50 players representing all professions, discuss balance with them and implement what is agreed. Continue this until a good balance is achieved.

    what top 50 ?? xD

    being top in this game is a "mirage".
    ´
    did we sudently start talkign about gw1 top groups?

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 13, 2019

    @Crypto.7609 said:
    Allow everyone, cores and elites, use all weapons and utilities. For example core necro/reaper can use sourge utilities+torch.
    This would remove the huge, incomparable advantages that elites provide compared to other options and will make this game MUUUUCH easier to balance since you guys can then start nerfing individual weapons/traits/utilities without considering the elite spec as a whole.

    This makes no sense at all.

    First off, your base assumption of having core specializations balanced with elite specializations already makes balancing more complex. Currently core specializations are not being balanced for (yes, there is 1-2 which work, but in general elite specializations replace core for their respective role). Meaning most classes need to get balanced around 2 elite specializations. Increasing this to 3 (core+2 elites) is already more work.

    Now you could argue that core and elite specialziations should not vary in power, but that is a different issue and definately a lot more complex and difficult to achieve then what we have currently.

    Second, you increase the base amount of weapons which need to get balanced instead of keeping certain weapon combinations impossible. The math makes no sense here. Increasing the amount of variables one needs to balance around makes things harder, not easier. You argue that this would get countered by the ease of balance because now weapons would not be needed to be so powerful because they are not exclusive to elite specializations. Most elite specializations are superior to their core builds not due to weapons alone. They are a part of the factor. Suffice to say this has been brought up in the past and usually most people have never actually considered what certain elite weapons being available at all time means. My favorit is shield on Mirage by the way. The net result is a lot more balance put on the traits and utilities while ALSO now balancing for a larger pool of core weapons.

    That is nuts.

    Should we ever get a 3rd elite specializations I fully expect core builds to become completely irrelevant, as it should be balance wise. Everything else is beyond impossible to balance for.

  • aelska.4609aelska.4609 Member ✭✭✭

    Replacing entirely the balance team.

  • Vancho.8750Vancho.8750 Member ✭✭✭

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Crypto.7609 said:
    Allow everyone, cores and elites, use all weapons and utilities. For example core necro/reaper can use sourge utilities+torch.
    This would remove the huge, incomparable advantages that elites provide compared to other options and will make this game MUUUUCH easier to balance since you guys can then start nerfing individual weapons/traits/utilities without considering the elite spec as a whole.

    This makes no sense at all.

    First off, your base assumption of having core specializations balanced with elite specializations already makes balancing more complex. Currently core specializations are not being balanced for (yes, there is 1-2 which work, but in general elite specializations replace core for their respective role). Meaning most classes need to get balanced around 2 elite specializations. Increasing this to 3 (core+2 elites) is already more work.

    Now you could argue that core and elite specialziations should not vary in power, but that is a different issue and definately a lot more complex and difficult to achieve then what we have currently.

    Second, you increase the base amount of weapons which need to get balanced instead of keeping certain weapon combinations impossible. The math makes no sense here. Increasing the amount of variables one needs to balance around makes things harder, not easier. You argue that this would get countered by the ease of balance because now weapons would not be needed to be so powerful because they are not exclusive to elite specializations. Most elite specializations are superior to their core builds not due to weapons alone. They are a part of the factor. Suffice to say this has been brought up in the past and usually most people have never actually considered what certain elite weapons being available at all time means. My favorit is shield on Mirage by the way. The net result is a lot more balance put on the traits and utilities while ALSO now balancing for a larger pool of core weapons.

    That is nuts.

    Should we ever get a 3rd elite specializations I fully expect core builds to become completely irrelevant, as it should be balance wise. Everything else is beyond impossible to balance for.

    I think when they add 3rd elite speck they can make each one focused to specific strength of the class, so when used with the co-responding cor traitline it makes the class good at single defined task with some upgrades.
    Every time they ad specks they make it do everything since its the new toy and all, but for example if they made scourge support support and not amalgamation of everything it would great but it would leave empty space for condition speck, since they moved reaper to be power type necromancer, so the next one could possibly make way to clean up the current elites.That leaves core not that great, but i think it shouldn't be, the core traitlines should be somewhat streamlined like every profession would get one support, one condition, one defensive and one power oriented traitline that increases their innate class powers. I think even that they should rebalance the elites to work without the mandatory special powers traitline and make that one an elite speck on its own.

  • Axl.8924Axl.8924 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I think we should have one staff member of the game play a class and have 1 of each play it and nothing but it so we can get someone who truly understands each class and able to fix it.

    I think also having all weapons in the game available to core could be game breaking, besides specific spec elite weapons should stay there.

    Here is my list of characters i got so far:

    Elementalist 80 with tempest:Talman nul
    Necromancer 80 with reaper:Zex vokar
    Mesmer level 80 no chrono yet:Klanga voosh.
    Level 80 Ranger with druid spec Jedkhan.

  • Daishi.6027Daishi.6027 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 14, 2019

    @Dreddo.9865 said:
    Gather top 50 players representing all professions

    Do you mean the top 50 of their respective class/build mains? Or just the top 50?

    There are many build archetypes that are not represented at high end, I don't just flat out trust the 50 who don't play, or use it to just decide what would be fair for it.
    On top of that, top 50 can be over represented by particular classes and builds and just be biased.

    But hey if you can get top 50 of both power + condi specs, and Damage + bunker of another you might get some good discussion, maybe. But I don't think that is feasible unless they were given some private forum only they could post in but the public could read. I doubt any game would ever do that.

  • @Dreddo.9865 said:
    Gather top 50 players representing all professions, discuss balance with them and implement what is agreed. Continue this until a good balance is achieved.

    Majority rules, and a majority of those players play or played Holo, SB, SLB, Rev, and Scrapper. That means classes that don't get a lot of representation will get even less representation.

    Plus, most of those people would probably only seek to balance the game in a way that makes it easiest for them to farm rank on their profession with their DuoQ partner.

    Not to mention top 50 is technically like top 40. You'd be giving people multiple votes because of all the alts and paid boosted accounts.

    Remove Ranked DuoQ pls&ty

  • mortrialus.3062mortrialus.3062 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dreddo.9865 said:

    @Crypto.7609 said:

    @Dreddo.9865 said:
    Gather top 50 players representing all professions, discuss balance with them and implement what is agreed. Continue this until a good balance is achieved.

    That doesnt lead to balance cos not all top 50 people play all 9 classes.
    For example for necro players most op classes are ranged mesmer, ranger and thief buids, for mesmers its melle consume plasma thief, for tank rangers and warriors its corrupt boon necroes and so on. So basically everyone is op for everyone in circular way.
    Only players who play all 9 classess can come close to comprehening balance.

    On the contrary most top players know exactly how things work and are honest enough to admit balance irregularities even those concerning their classes.

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Dreddo.9865 said:
    Gather top 50 players representing all professions, discuss balance with them and implement what is agreed. Continue this until a good balance is achieved.

    No game in the history of human kind has ever achieved balance this way.

    How are you so sure of that statement? There are examples out there (like ESO) and personally I have been playing Lineage2 in the past (another NCSoft owned title) with a PTS. All content was tested by players (anyone could do that) before release and feedback was given to the developers, thus adjustments were done before the content was released. While a different PvP system (and a far lower player base) the PvP balance was decent without those 'exaggerations' and 'meme builds' found here.

    Lineage 2? Seriously? Lineage 2 was a game where you could dump buffs onto a specific class and watch as said class solo'd hundreds of players at once.

    The Psychomancer: Mesmer Elite Specialization Suggestion

  • Exedore.6320Exedore.6320 Member ✭✭✭

    @Axl.8924 said:
    I think we should have one staff member of the game play a class and have 1 of each play it and nothing but it so we can get someone who truly understands each class and able to fix it.

    The same developer did Tempest and Weaver specs for elementalist. The only spec he worked on for PoF was Weaver. Careful what you wish for...

  • Axl.8924Axl.8924 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 15, 2019

    @Exedore.6320 said:

    @Axl.8924 said:
    I think we should have one staff member of the game play a class and have 1 of each play it and nothing but it so we can get someone who truly understands each class and able to fix it.

    The same developer did Tempest and Weaver specs for elementalist. The only spec he worked on for PoF was Weaver. Careful what you wish for...

    I just want to make sure people actually test this, and does the person even play ele? because some changes to weaver make me question since you got some people unhappy with the way weaver was treated.

    Here is my list of characters i got so far:

    Elementalist 80 with tempest:Talman nul
    Necromancer 80 with reaper:Zex vokar
    Mesmer level 80 no chrono yet:Klanga voosh.
    Level 80 Ranger with druid spec Jedkhan.

  • Dreddo.9865Dreddo.9865 Member ✭✭✭

    @mortrialus.3062 said:
    Lineage 2? Seriously? Lineage 2 was a game where you could dump buffs onto a specific class and watch as said class solo'd hundreds of players at once.

    You are describing a situation where a high level, equipped player can punish a group of inferior (level, equipment) players. I speak of the Olympiad (1v1 PvP tournament) where on same level (equipment was still important) some nice and balanced duels were taking place. Rotating your skills properly, kiting, using LOS, basically most things used here were valid there as well.

    Now look at the contradiction. We see in WvW equal level and almost equal quality of equipment players and I dare say most of the times of close skill or game knowledge level, being trolled by the class balance design of gw2. Like soulbeasts one shotting people with the mount attack skill. Is this kind of balance ok for you?

    It is no wonder this has put people away from the competitive mods. WvW is almost dry of people and PvP is in no better situation - was watching Sindrener stream being drawn with low plat, gold enemies. That's where we are atm and I bet you can imagine how this ends.

    PS - just research how many developers work on Lineage2 for like the past 7 years and compare this to gw2, you 're gonna be laughing hard :)

  • Stand The Wall.6987Stand The Wall.6987 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Master Ketsu.4569 said:
    Stop.
    Nerfing.
    Core.
    Traits/Skills.
    When.
    It's.
    The.
    Elite.
    Spec.
    That.
    Is.
    The.
    Problem.

    Really is that simple. If the balance team took this into greater consideration Elite specs would be balanced with core specs within a few balance patches.

    you don't know till you know, ya know.

  • Stand The Wall.6987Stand The Wall.6987 Member ✭✭✭✭

    also stop trying to reinvent the wheel every single kitten time.

    you don't know till you know, ya know.

  • otto.5684otto.5684 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:
    also stop trying to reinvent the wheel every single kitten time.

    Right? If you consider the time sunk on scraper to make a... tank! As supposed to what is it now exactly... Complete waste of time.

  • Yannir.4132Yannir.4132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dreddo.9865 said:
    Gather top 50 players representing all professions, discuss balance with them and implement what is agreed. Continue this until a good balance is achieved.

    Those top 50 people include some real toxic trolly a-wholes so no thanks. There's no credential that guarantees a good balance opinion.

  • Magnus Godrik.5841Magnus Godrik.5841 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Get rid of the elite specs and use only core and balance that.

  • Darth.7623Darth.7623 Member ✭✭

    Bring the rest of the especs inline with the newly nerfed chrono, scapper, rev, and druid.

  • Mbelch.9028Mbelch.9028 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Yannir.4132 said:

    @Dreddo.9865 said:
    Gather top 50 players representing all professions, discuss balance with them and implement what is agreed. Continue this until a good balance is achieved.

    Those top 50 people include some real toxic trolly a-wholes so no thanks. There's no credential that guarantees a good balance opinion.

    The credential is the people who routinely win the monthly. They're players who have mastered multiple roles and almost (if not completely) all the classes.

    Players like Reckless, Naru, Kronos, Helio, and the like on NA should be able to weigh in on balance. Not make balance decisions mind you, just weigh in and have their opinions considered.

  • aelska.4609aelska.4609 Member ✭✭✭

    Rollback the game to pre-HoT state.

  • Exedore.6320Exedore.6320 Member ✭✭✭

    It's actually better to limit combinations. Less possibilities allows for more knobs to tune without making another spec too strong.

    What ANet may actually want to do is pick one of the 5 core trait lines and make it an elite spec for core players. The ideal candidate would probably be the final trait line which usually affects the F1-F5 abilities most. It can make core stand out more from elites in how they play and gives core a better defined role(s). The power of that trait line can be increased and the remaining 4 decreased in order to further distinguish the specs and limit balance problems. Additionally, you'll have fewer weird interactions to worry about in future elite specs (e.g. Dhuumfire and Scourge).

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Get a new balance team

©2010–2018 ArenaNet, LLC. All rights reserved. Guild Wars, Guild Wars 2, Heart of Thorns, Guild Wars 2: Path of Fire, ArenaNet, NCSOFT, the Interlocking NC Logo, and all associated logos and designs are trademarks or registered trademarks of NCSOFT Corporation. All other trademarks are the property of their respective owners.