Could you maybe throw us a bone and allow some of the new Scrapper traits to work with condi instead of only power?

Eg. The barrier one? Allow barrier on condi damage as well as strike damage?

As it stands now, there are precious few traits that are playable in a condi build, and it seems like most of the new scrapper ones that could at least provide some sustain or defense now require us to play a power hammer scrapper.

Thanks..

I agree with you that condi engi is a joke right now and the next patch will make it even worse.But they want to make scrapper more like a real tank, and just imagine what a monster of sustain a condi scrapper would be if u run dire stats and scrapper spec with tons of tankiness.IMO when scrapper get its unique F5 and holo has a unique F5, why core engi cannot have its own strong F5? maybe merge grenade and bomb kit somehow together to be very strong condition kit just available to core engi.But this is just a dream, I hope we get a serious condi spec when new elite specs are released. Now I feel like I am trolling myself when equiping pistols...

@mov.1246 said:and just imagine what a monster of sustain a condi scrapper would be if u run dire stats and scrapper spec with tons of tankiness.You can do that today and a shatter mirage can still bring you 100-0 in a couple seconds, a fresh air weaver can still bring you 100-0 in a couple seconds, a spellbreaker can bring you 100-0 in a 10s stunlock rampage, a holo can bring you 100-0 as good as the spellbreaker, a s/s herald can teleport in from 1200 range and bring you down 100-0 in the blink of an eye, a scourge can make you kill yourself as fast as you can kill him, etc etc.

So yeah. I can imagine it. Not sure why you wouldnt since thats what the very, very rare condi scrappers run today. Well or trailblazer. Close enough. It is a good sustain spec, but its about on par with any good power build 1v1 and quickly loose effectivness when you start stacking, unlike power that only increase.

The problem as OP says is that you literally only got one way to trait today, because other traits get you nothing. Its a very narrow spec. They are neither power nor condi oriented, but they work in your favor. The patch deletes all those traits and replace them with power based traits. If you go condi you have to gimp yourself with an entire useless traitline just if you like using the regular gyros.

@Dawdler.8521 said:It is a good sustain spec, but its about on par with any good power build 1v1 and quickly loose effectivness when you start stacking, unlike power that only increase.

Wut? How? Any half competent player i duel on condi engi just cleans the burns he can't avoid. We have like 2013 style application, while cleans/resi have evolved to face mirage and scourge. We even lost traits like the old kinetic batterie, that synergised with Incendiary Ammo, on the way.

@schloumou.3982 said:

@Dawdler.8521 said:It is a good sustain spec, but its about on par with any good power build 1v1 and quickly loose effectivness when you start stacking, unlike power that only increase.

I played p/p scrapper almost entire HoT and I've played it again daily since the january patch or whenever it was they changed gyros. I've fought all kinds of enemy. Even other condi scrappers. I think I've met... two? Yeah I think two worth their salt.

So sure, good condi scrappers may be rare, the blowtorch still handles like it was made of wriggly noodles and yes the enemy cleanse your condis... Thats where sustain wins. Sustain that Anet seems to be completely intent on deleting in the coming patch, so that might be the end of that. No point in arguing whats good or bad anymore.

@coro.3176 said:Could you maybe throw us a bone and allow some of the new Scrapper traits to work with condi instead of only power?

Eg. The barrier one? Allow barrier on condi damage as well as strike damage?

As it stands now, there are precious few traits that are playable in a condi build, and it seems like most of the new scrapper ones that could at least provide some sustain or defense now require us to play a power hammer scrapper.

Thanks..

If we only had a reliable enough way to apply conditions in bursty amounts the way other professions do to make them worth using to actually feed the barrier. How is that going happen in a way that isn't cleansed repeatedly or which- assuming it isn't cleansed isn't going to register as anything more than a trickle feed to the barrier before the gyro expires?

If they see dual pistols they'll be waiting for blowtorch to cleanse. Elixir gun is slow and single target. Grenades, flamethrower, bombs, mortar kit, and our field applications have to actually hit the enemy or be run over by them to even apply. And we know how hard it is to keep someone in range with hammer.

Whether it's condi or power I don't believe they thought this through before teasing it to us. Or perhaps they did and that's the problem.

@coro.3176 said:Could you maybe throw us a bone and allow some of the new Scrapper traits to work with condi instead of only power?

Eg. The barrier one? Allow barrier on condi damage as well as strike damage?

As it stands now, there are precious few traits that are playable in a condi build, and it seems like most of the new scrapper ones that could at least provide some sustain or defense now require us to play a power hammer scrapper.

Honest question... why would a condi engineer be running scrapper in the first place?

@mindcircus.1506 said:

Honest question... why would a condi engineer be running scrapper in the first place?

Well the way condi engi works is you land blowtorch and stack cover condi's so they can't cleanse it. But generally you won't be able to get the first one to stick no matter what so you need to survive against the insane damage of most other specs long enough to land two or three blowtorches. That' why you run scrapper. barrier on heal, barrier when hit ever 3 seconds, and a second stealth.

Also. if you run firearms and alchemy there isn't really much else for a condi build damage wise. The exlosive triat that adds bleeding is really not much and you can't really run bombs/grenades/ because they dont' have enough defense to take over a stunbreak/stab utility.

@mindcircus.1506 said:

@coro.3176 said:Could you maybe throw us a bone and allow some of the new Scrapper traits to work with condi instead of only power?

Eg. The barrier one? Allow barrier on condi damage as well as strike damage?

As it stands now, there are precious few traits that are playable in a condi build, and it seems like most of the new scrapper ones that could at least provide some sustain or defense now require us to play a power hammer scrapper.

Scrapper is generally tankier than core engi. Condi engi relies on victory through attrition, so it needs to burst condis, then survive while those condis tick.

@mov.1246 said:IMO when scrapper get its unique F5 and holo has a unique F5, why core engi cannot have its own strong F5? maybe merge grenade and bomb kit somehow together to be very strong condition kit just available to core engi.

As I already mentioned I had some thoughts about this, what do u think about that:

New F5 core ability Explosive Kit (just an updated version of the Grenade Kit)

1 Fire Grenade:

Damage unchanged to the AA we now have, but additional 1 Sec of burning to every grenade. with 1500 condition damage and Incendiary Powder this skill would do around 1460 burn damage if all 3 grenades hit.

2 Shrapnel Grenade:

Same numbers as now, but just half the duration of bleeding, and double the stacks to 2 per grenade (6 stacks in total when all 3 grenades hit). This would deal the same damage over time but it will do better spike damage and Sanguine Array would benefit of this.

3 Flash Grenade:

Add 3 stacks of confusion in addtion to blind.

4 Freeze Grenade:

Additional stuns the target for 1.5 sec.

5 Poison Grenade:

Additional 2 sec of weakness (per grenade) to its current effect.

General: increase radius to 180 baseline and the Grenadier Trait will increase radius to 240.Short Fuse will reduce recharge time of all grenade skills by 20% and gain fury on hit (like now).

Who think this kit would be a little bit overpowered -> This kit is F5 to core only!

@mov.1246 said:

@mov.1246 said:IMO when scrapper get its unique F5 and holo has a unique F5, why core engi cannot have its own strong F5? maybe merge grenade and bomb kit somehow together to be very strong condition kit just available to core engi.

I'm actually hoping weapon kits (aka everything but the Med, Tool and Elixir Gun kits) are removed as utility skills and become selectable weapons in the F5 slot. Core Engineer gets a de facto weapon swap, the balance team can buff or nerf individual kits without worrying about elite specialisations, core Engineer can dedicate their utiliy skill slots to survival, damage or utility and I get to be happy ever after.

@Tapps.1479 said:

@mindcircus.1506 said:

Honest question... why would a condi engineer be running scrapper in the first place?

Pretty much this. Scrapper was the best defensive traitline, and when you're going to need to land your burst 3-5 times in a fight, you need all the defense you can get.

Power builds usually only need 1 burst combo to down an opponent. Condi engi usually needs multiple and it needs to survive for up to 16s each time while it ticks. This necessitates some serious defensive focus in the build.

Scrapper provided barrier, a bit of regen with swiftness/superspeed, and importantly stealth from Sneak Gyro, all of which help you survive while you wait for your condi to tick or your damage skills to come back off cooldown.

Disagree completely, the major reason condi engi is terrible is because everything on the base class is hybrid damage, we wouldn't have a viable power option either if it weren't for the holoforge being power exclusive.

We need real condi options, but further ruining the scrappers theme by making it hybrid isn't the way to do it, such options should be added to the base class in a major overhaul of our kits and weapons that gives each a unique mechanical identity.

@Conncept.7638 said:Disagree completely, the major reason condi engi is terrible is because everything on the base class is hybrid damage, we wouldn't have a viable power option either if it weren't for the holoforge.

We need real condi options, but further ruining the scrappers theme by making it hybrid isn't the way to do it.

If it's supposed to be hybrid damage, the power coefficients don't support it at all. Eg. see the power coefficients for all the pistol skills. I'd be happy to run a hybrid power/condi/x build and split the damage, but the skills hit like a wet noodle and aren't worth investing stats into.

Eg. Compare:

• Engi pistol 1 - Fragmentation Shot - 900 range, effectively 0.8s cast time even though it says 0.5, 147x(0.4Power) damage, plus ~1500 of bleed with max condition damage/duration over 10s+
• Ranger longbow - Long Range Shot - 1500 range (effectively 1800+), 0.75s cast time, 347x(0.9Power) damage

What you end up with is engi pistol barely cracking 2k damage even if the bleed ticks its full duration. Realistically, it gets cleansed within a few seconds.Meanwhile Ranger is throwing around 5k+ autoattacks from twice the range and that's instant power damage. Ranger is doing well over 2x as much damage, from over 2x the range instantly. That is so much better than single long ticking stack of bleed it's ridiculous.

The problem, as others have said, is that the game's cleanse has grown to match the power creep of Mirage and Scourge condi builds, but condi engi's condi application is stuck in 2013. Thus, the only way for it to deal damage (currently) is to land its burst over and over and over and over until the opponent's cleanse is finally exhausted minutes later (or the opponent has enough cleanse to last indefinitely and then you have to run away or die). That's why it needs so much defense right now.

That's why it's going to be hurting so much from the Scrapper changes.

Well, the new barrier is ridiculous for condi. Before you had what, 350ish hp/s from superspeed and about the same barrier/s when hit.

On condi specs that's now replaced by... 30 barrier on autoattack. I tried cycling all my skills on a raid golem and could upkeep like 200 barrier (which take maybe 5s to even reach).

Thanks alot Anet. GG. You literally killed an entire spec. I might play it a while longer just to get a feel for it but at a glance there's no sustain left - pretty obvious from what we knew. You definetly notice it when playing. Fights with builds that often ended up a slugfest before just ends with the enemy sustaining you down because you regen 0 hp on a gyro build.

We got basicly nothing to show for it either. The new gyro stomp is neat in theory, in practice the gyros still die when someone sneeze on them. I had a moment when 3 was down and I popped it on them... the enemy group had destroyed them all in about 0.5 seconds and oh look now I have 50+ seconds cooldown. Its limited range and glass gyros makes it worthless.

@coro.3176 said:

@"Conncept.7638" said:Disagree completely, the major reason condi engi is terrible is because everything on the base class is hybrid damage, we wouldn't have a viable power option either if it weren't for the holoforge.

We need real condi options, but further ruining the scrappers theme by making it hybrid isn't the way to do it.

• Engi pistol 1 - Fragmentation Shot - 900 range, effectively 0.8s cast time even though it says 0.5, 147x(0.4Power) damage, plus ~1500 of bleed with max condition damage/duration over 10s+
• Ranger longbow - Long Range Shot - 1500 range (effectively 1800+), 0.75s cast time, 347x(0.9Power) damage

Pistols and the bomb kit I would say are the only exceptions, and there's just not enough remaining power or condi exclusive build options to support them. And while true, about the engine condi application being years behind the latest wave of power creep, and about the scrapper hurting for a place, none of that justifies why making those ends meet needs to fall on a specialization whose niche is that of a power bunker, instead of improving the niche it already has to give it a place in the meta.

But my issue is with theme, not mechanics or a niche in the meta. For a long time engineer's "everything is hybrid" design philosophy worked fine, but it was never thematically fulfilling. People want a flamethrower that burns, a shotgun that shoots shotgun shells, and a scrapper that actually feels scrappy; and we've never had any of that. Nonetheless the scrapper is what it is, and as un-scrappy as it's theme is, it's still a consistent theme.

Now I could totally see a major scrapper overhaul that makes it hybrid, replaces the squeeky clean tazers and tinker toys with cobbled together fire and smoke belching engines, not only could I see that but I would love it. But just adding a little bit of mechanics that insinuate that, without any major change to support it, would jist muddle the purity of a theme that's already kind of I'll fitting and bland.

I guess TLDR; Adding a few hybrid elements to scrapper, no. Actually making the specialization hybrid, thumbs up.

@Conncept.7638 said:

@coro.3176 said:

@Conncept.7638 said:Disagree completely, the major reason condi engi is terrible is because everything on the base class is hybrid damage, we wouldn't have a viable power option either if it weren't for the holoforge.

We need real condi options, but further ruining the scrappers theme by making it hybrid isn't the way to do it.

• Engi pistol 1 - Fragmentation Shot - 900 range, effectively 0.8s cast time even though it says 0.5, 147x(0.4Power) damage, plus ~1500 of bleed with max condition damage/duration over 10s+
• Ranger longbow - Long Range Shot - 1500 range (effectively 1800+), 0.75s cast time, 347x(0.9Power) damage

We're not asking for hybrid elements or making the specialization hybrid - merely asking that it not require power to work. Currently you're actually at a disadvantage in taking the scrapper line while not running a specific power build. It's not just the opportunity cost of having no traits that synergize or even work with condi in the line. It's an actual loss of 3000 health with no sustain to compensate for it.

Previously you could run Scrapper to gain access to gyro skills and then pick some neutral traits to help with sustain. Now you get no traits that help with anything aside from power damage and sustain that requires power damage to function.

@coro.3176 said:

@Conncept.7638 said:Disagree completely, the major reason condi engi is terrible is because everything on the base class is hybrid damage, we wouldn't have a viable power option either if it weren't for the holoforge.

We need real condi options, but further ruining the scrappers theme by making it hybrid isn't the way to do it.

• Engi pistol 1 - Fragmentation Shot - 900 range, effectively 0.8s cast time even though it says 0.5, 147x(0.4Power) damage, plus ~1500 of bleed with max condition damage/duration over 10s+
• Ranger longbow - Long Range Shot - 1500 range (effectively 1800+), 0.75s cast time, 347x(0.9Power) damage

Bad argument. The problem with most people is they are always looking to other profession 1:1 while disregarding the profession as a whole.For example, you didn't take into consideration pistol is a 1 hand weapon while LB is a 2 hander one.

I am not saying your are wrong, I am just merely pointing out please refrain from dragging other professions when discussing skill balance and such.

@coro.3176 said:

@Conncept.7638 said:

@coro.3176 said:

@Conncept.7638 said:Disagree completely, the major reason condi engi is terrible is because everything on the base class is hybrid damage, we wouldn't have a viable power option either if it weren't for the holoforge.

We need real condi options, but further ruining the scrappers theme by making it hybrid isn't the way to do it.

• Engi pistol 1 - Fragmentation Shot - 900 range, effectively 0.8s cast time even though it says 0.5, 147x(0.4Power) damage, plus ~1500 of bleed with max condition damage/duration over 10s+
• Ranger longbow - Long Range Shot - 1500 range (effectively 1800+), 0.75s cast time, 347x(0.9Power) damage

Oh I get you now, you feel you need the scrappers pre-existing bunker elements to make condi-engineer sufficiently survivable. While I can sympathize with that, the devs did pick a role for the scrapper, a power bunker, anything beyond that, while it may be not condemned by the devs, is building the class content beyond its intended design, and as such isn't guaranteed to be supported by the devs either. Sorry :-/

@Conncept.7638 said:

@coro.3176 said:

@Conncept.7638 said:

@coro.3176 said:

@Conncept.7638 said:Disagree completely, the major reason condi engi is terrible is because everything on the base class is hybrid damage, we wouldn't have a viable power option either if it weren't for the holoforge.

We need real condi options, but further ruining the scrappers theme by making it hybrid isn't the way to do it.

• Engi pistol 1 - Fragmentation Shot - 900 range, effectively 0.8s cast time even though it says 0.5, 147x(0.4Power) damage, plus ~1500 of bleed with max condition damage/duration over 10s+
• Ranger longbow - Long Range Shot - 1500 range (effectively 1800+), 0.75s cast time, 347x(0.9Power) damage

Well, they have now, but up until today it did not necessarily have this power bunker role. It could previously serve multiple roles like condi support or condi roamer, as well as power bunker. It was good at being a power bunker, yes, and that was probably even the most effective way to play it, but it wasn't exclusively that.

Likewise, Holosmith is best as a power bruiser with offensive stats and defensive traits + skills. However, you don't necessarily have to play it that way. The traits allow you to spec for condi, for mobility, for range, etc.

Similarly, other traitlines clearly have an "intended design" but also offer options if you don't want to play it that way. Alchemy, for example, works best with elixirs, but also offers sustain, offensive, and defensive options if you choose not to play elixirs.

Firearms' intended design is partly condi, but also offers power options if you choose not to play condi.

Tools' indented design is build-agnostic, offering useful traits for almost any build.

Etc. etc.

It is just frustrating for Scrapper to lose its flexibility that other traitlines (and almost all other elite specs) have.

@coro.3176 said:Could you maybe throw us a bone and allow some of the new Scrapper traits to work with condi instead of only power?

Eg. The barrier one? Allow barrier on condi damage as well as strike damage?

As it stands now, there are precious few traits that are playable in a condi build, and it seems like most of the new scrapper ones that could at least provide some sustain or defense now require us to play a power hammer scrapper.

Thanks..

This. They do seem like they have said Scrapper condi combo, not so much. Changing it that barrier is off condi damage would help, and losing the 300 Vit, ouch.

I tried it last night. It's as I feared - all downside and no upside for running scrapper. Hell, even Holosmith has some traits that work with condi even if the spec generally does more power damage.

Scrapper basically demands that you be doing a lot of power damage constantly to make up for the lost HP.

I'm not the biggest fan of the mechanic in the first place.. but please Anet, I'm begging you. For the sake of some build diversity, let it work with condi. It shouldn't be a huge deal coding-wise because necro has a trait where condi damage heals. Same thing with barrier, right?

None of the core traitlines are good enough to make condi engi playable. Honestly, I think Holosmith is the best alternative currently because at least that offers some sustain from Heat Therapy, some CC and burn damage from PF 5 4 combo.. and no lost vitality

@coro.3176 said:

@Conncept.7638 said:Disagree completely, the major reason condi engi is terrible is because everything on the base class is hybrid damage, we wouldn't have a viable power option either if it weren't for the holoforge.

We need real condi options, but further ruining the scrappers theme by making it hybrid isn't the way to do it.

• Engi pistol 1 - Fragmentation Shot - 900 range, effectively 0.8s cast time even though it says 0.5, 147x(0.4Power) damage, plus ~1500 of bleed with max condition damage/duration over 10s+
• Ranger longbow - Long Range Shot - 1500 range (effectively 1800+), 0.75s cast time, 347x(0.9Power) damage

Why compare it longbow when ranger literally has a 900 range condi weapon with the same exact power coefficient on its auto as the engie pistol?

@Lazze.9870 said:

@coro.3176 said:

@Conncept.7638 said:Disagree completely, the major reason condi engi is terrible is because everything on the base class is hybrid damage, we wouldn't have a viable power option either if it weren't for the holoforge.

We need real condi options, but further ruining the scrappers theme by making it hybrid isn't the way to do it.

• Engi pistol 1 - Fragmentation Shot - 900 range, effectively 0.8s cast time even though it says 0.5, 147x(0.4Power) damage, plus ~1500 of bleed with max condition damage/duration over 10s+
• Ranger longbow - Long Range Shot - 1500 range (effectively 1800+), 0.75s cast time, 347x(0.9Power) damage

Because I haven't seen a condi ranger in FOREVER, probably because its weapon attacks are equally bad and it gets most of its value from traps. Also, that ranger auto is close its listed 0.5s cast time. The engi one is listed at 0.5s, but instead takes 0.82s! That's a whole 64% longer than it should be, which seriously hurts its usability and dps.

I picked Longbow because that's what I see most ranger roamers using and I find it to be a good example of a ranged weapon autoattack that is actually valuable and does its job - maybe even too well.

If anything, the 900 range attacks should be much better than the 1800 range attacks on longbow to make up for the fact that the user has to close a lot more distance before they are in range.

@coro.3176 said:

@Lazze.9870 said:

@coro.3176 said:

@"Conncept.7638" said:Disagree completely, the major reason condi engi is terrible is because everything on the base class is hybrid damage, we wouldn't have a viable power option either if it weren't for the holoforge.

We need real condi options, but further ruining the scrappers theme by making it hybrid isn't the way to do it.

• Engi pistol 1 - Fragmentation Shot - 900 range, effectively 0.8s cast time even though it says 0.5, 147x(0.4Power) damage, plus ~1500 of bleed with max condition damage/duration over 10s+
• Ranger longbow - Long Range Shot - 1500 range (effectively 1800+), 0.75s cast time, 347x(0.9Power) damage

It's too slow at long range to be considered doing its job "too" well (inherently with cast time + travel time , but you might make an argument about how soulbeast boosts it too much), and at short range it suffers from lower damage which neither pistols or shortbows have to worry about. I think it's fine where it is. Perhaps do something about how the game handles projectiles beyond the stated range.

Condi ranger isn't played (outside pve) and you'd be right in saying that the shortbow is certainly one of those reasons. But the thing is, Anet has already been through this. Shortbow was nerfed to not compete directly with the longbow. One of the reasons I brought it up, because you literally have an example of how they decided to balance this earlier without having to compare to other professions.

If the pistol auto doesn't line up with the stated cast time, that is something they should obviously fix.