Why would I help newer players? — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Why would I help newer players?

Turial.1293Turial.1293 Member ✭✭

Now I don't mean me personally but ask yourself this question, what's in it for you? You get your guild group together at reset, rush through the raid wings in about 3 hours and then you are done for the week, no more rewards, you are capped. You see guildie after guildie ask in chat, you see pugs beg in map chat for a full party so they can even practice.... but why bother? You don't get any rewards for helping them, not even blues/greens, you get zilch. Maybe you can join the raid sellers instead, at least that way you get gold and others can get their raid done, who cares if they understand the mechanics or learn anything, what is important is that you make money. If only there was a system in place where you got extra loot if someone in the party completes their first clear of a wing, that could be incentive but that doesn't exist. You get nothing, why bother?

Maybe I should pose the question to the GW2 Raid Devs instead? There is only a small numbers of players that complete raids weekly and everyone else has to suck it up; the current system is flawed, especially when you consider that the only constant day to day is raid sellers in the LFG tool. No issue with raid sellers mind you, they are just filling a gap that the devs have left wide open. GW2 Raids have an artifical barrier built in that makes it harder and harder for the casual player to experience them, if you don't have 100 kill proofs then you cannot join but they can't get a group so they cannot join, it's a catch 22. This isn't a topic on the difficulty of raids by the way, just the lack of rewards for everyone. It's a minority of players that do full clears every week with the vast majority of players not able to find groups and it has nothing to do with their gear or skill levels, plenty are able for raids but if you don't play by reset each week, then you just don't play and that is the reality.

Update: The emphasis of my post has less to do with rewards and more to do with a flawed raid system that cuts off 95% of the playerbase by it's design, not by player choice.

Comments

  • Blocki.4931Blocki.4931 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Because you will never know whether your group will stay together or not. The moment a single person drops out and needs to be replaced you know your answer.

    Bite me.

  • Naxos.2503Naxos.2503 Member ✭✭✭

    @Skotlex.7580 said:
    If this is specifically about raids, I imagine there's a few possible reasons to help new people out. Such as:
    1. Looking to increase the raid playerbase
    2. Looking for people who to be part of your organized runs
    3. boredom (because raids are too easy when everybody knows the mechanics)
    4. To show off by attempting to carry the squad (which was totally what was happening when chronomancer could use party-distortion)
    5. Because one enjoys teaching others.

    Pretty much yes. All in all, everything is subjective when it comes to self-benefits. Some wont see those as worthwhile reasons to do it, and some will lament that not enough people do this as a rule of thumb. I'm in the second category, but I wont throw stones at the first. To each their own, if a change is to come, it will when it needs to.

  • zealex.9410zealex.9410 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 15, 2019

    @Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:
    There are two distinct issues:

    • What's in it for experienced raiders to slow down their first clear and/or to go without substantive rewards to clear multiple times?
    • What happens when there are additional rewards for multiple clears?

    The OP raises the first issue; ANet is worried about the second.


    When the game launched, and dungeons could be cleared regularly by experienced players, what happened was groups got very specific about comps to speed through and then they repeated them over and over again. They did not slow down for newer players to join & learn. Even as ANet added time gates to the rewards, this didn't substantially change: groups that repeat, repeat for speed, not for training.

    So the "reality" is that adding rewards for people willing to go again and again doesn't actually create a better space for training. Instead, it creates a reward structure that allows experienced players to earn more.

    (And no, it doesn't get much better by changing the requirements to include a minimum number of first clears, since there are plenty of ways to abuse that.)


    tl;dr the OP has a point... it's just not the only point.

    You could argue putting repeatable rewards on content could incentivise new players to get in on the action, wether thats finding a guild or watching/reading guides.

    Im not speaking for everyone but that what happened with me and my innitial group of friends and thats how i got to know alot of my friends in the game.

    As you said putting caps to rewards didnt really stop ppl from trying to be optimal and looking for the right comps etc, so i think worrying or disabling this gameplay will only hurt some ppl's engagement while not inproving other's.

  • MithranArkanere.8957MithranArkanere.8957 Member ✭✭✭✭

    In this game you don't get better by getting higher stats, you get better by getting better at the game.

    So the best way to show off is helping new player. The better you are, the easier it is for you to help others. Like how some people can basically solo dungeons and carry the rest of the party.

  • LadyKitty.6120LadyKitty.6120 Member ✭✭✭

    Training runs are also a good place for testing new builds and perhaps meme builds (as long as you don't perform worse than the trainees). And besides, some people raid purely for fun and rewards are just a bonus.

    It's Kitty. The young lady who streams and records videos playing various (non-)metabuilds. Raid/fractal videos at youtube.com/LadyKitty, Kittymarks test results at youtube.com/Kittymarks and tinyurl.com/Kittymarks and streams at twitch.tv/ladykittygw2 .

  • @zealex.9410 said:
    You could argue putting repeatable rewards on content could incentivise new players to get in on the action, wether thats finding a guild or watching/reading guides.

    The OP already made that argument and I agreed that incentivizing veterans to meet up with newbies is important. (And I'm positive ANet would agree, too.) The point is: it's not the only consideration. And a critical issue is that there don't seem to be non-abusable incentives that actually do increase engagement.

    Im not speaking for everyone but that what happened with me and my innitial group of friends and thats how i got to know alot of my friends in the game.

    Yes, just as nearly all my friends from GW1 (and indirectly, in GW2) stemmed from P2P trading. That isn't an argument in favor or against such features; it's a story about how we met likeminded people.

    As you said putting caps to rewards didnt really stop ppl from trying to be optimal and looking for the right comps etc, so i think worrying or disabling this gameplay will only hurt some ppl's engagement while not inproving other's.

    It costs ANet to change the status quo. Arguing that "this wouldn't really make things worse" isn't an incentive to change things.

    Worse, it actually costs ANet something more than dev time to implement because now they have to balance rewards to take into account the speed-clearing contingent. It's not impossible to do so; it's just another headache for them.


    I'm sure ANet would love to hear your ideas of what would actually get you (or your cohort) to spend time training people you don't know, that isn't the same "because some people find it fun to help newbies learn."

    Hype is the path to the dark side. Hype leads to unfulfilled expectations. Disappointment leads to anger. Anger leads to disgust. Disgust leads to "oh, new shinies! I'm back!"

  • Iozeph.5617Iozeph.5617 Member ✭✭✭

    @Skotlex.7580 said:
    If this is specifically about raids, I imagine there's a few possible reasons to help new people out. Such as:
    1. Looking to increase the raid playerbase

    This^^ -sorry for the correction-

    The game isn't new anymore. Making raids was probably a mistake/waste of money/man hours etc. but they're here to stay. That said, there's still significant barrier to entry - whether that's time learning a profession, or learning strategies for higher tier play before being accepted by others. And while Anet builds raids and other contents for us to play as a community, they don't include a basic tutorial for social skills. I guess they just erroneously assumed that the people playing their game would have them and know how to use them.

    It's a two way street. If you want competent(important), friendly(even more important) people to progress through content with then you have to take a bit of time to ensure that they aren't alienated or put off by utterly ridiculous requirements, intolerance of mistakes, and the abuse that tends to come hand in hand with those sorts of behaviours.

    It's probably why so many otherwise prospective players(what more raiders) are gun shy about coming into an established player base and after their first few bad experiences they drop the game and say, 'to hell with it.'

    Unfortunately there's no way to force people into not being antisocial outside the respective pirate crews of other anti-socials they already struggle to suppress their revulsion in order to accomplish certain in game goals on a weekly basis. It's the human condition when you add a significant remove between people and a limited amount of anonymity into the mix for good measure.

  • zealex.9410zealex.9410 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:

    @zealex.9410 said:
    You could argue putting repeatable rewards on content could incentivise new players to get in on the action, wether thats finding a guild or watching/reading guides.

    The OP already made that argument and I agreed that incentivizing veterans to meet up with newbies is important. (And I'm positive ANet would agree, too.) The point is: it's not the only consideration. And a critical issue is that there don't seem to be non-abusable incentives that actually do increase engagement.

    Abusable? As in?

    Im not speaking for everyone but that what happened with me and my innitial group of friends and thats how i got to know alot of my friends in the game.

    Yes, just as nearly all my friends from GW1 (and indirectly, in GW2) stemmed from P2P trading. That isn't an argument in favor or against such features; it's a story about how we met likeminded people.

    What i meant to say (which i guess i didnt make clear, was that those are mostly the only ppl ive actually got to know and cool friends ppl that i spend time in game playing and talking, like minded or not being incentivised to interact with others to get a group started for dungeons back then got me there).

    I havent really had interactions like that since then in fractals (post hot) or metas (only exception is during the release of fractal cms where i pugged them and spend hours attempting to clear them for the first time.

    What im trying to say, js that quick get in get out content doesnt really promote interaction and community making.

    As you said putting caps to rewards didnt really stop ppl from trying to be optimal and looking for the right comps etc, so i think worrying or disabling this gameplay will only hurt some ppl's engagement while not inproving other's.

    It costs ANet to change the status quo. Arguing that "this wouldn't really make things worse" isn't an incentive to change things.

    Worse, it actually costs ANet something more than dev time to implement because now they have to balance rewards to take into account the speed-clearing contingent. It's not impossible to do so; it's just another headache for them.

    They are already doing that tho, albeit they more often look to change the content to fit their average and not rewards. Its not like changing the stance on repeating content changes things much.


    I'm sure ANet would love to hear your ideas of what would actually get you (or your cohort) to spend time training people you don't know, that isn't the same "because some people find it fun to help newbies learn."

    This wasnt tbh about my ideas of helping new ppl and rewarding that. It was mostly about the second point, what happens with rewards when the content is repeatable.

    About the first point, idk just add a mentor system and give ppl the ability to rate mentors at the end of the run, limit it to only helping ppl that havent maxed their fractal climbing or smth. Give rewards at the end of the week based on your average rating.

    Another one would be to just let content be repeatable, as we saw in the raid thread about rewards ppl said it was nice to get some loot in reclears while helping newbies.

  • Vinceman.4572Vinceman.4572 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @zealex.9410 said:
    Abusable? As in?

    and

    Another one would be to just let content be repeatable, as we saw in the raid thread about rewards ppl said it was nice to get some loot in reclears while helping newbies.

    Go hand in hand.
    Many players & raiders have more than one account. Those would be picked first to rerun things and get the rewards before people would help newer players. You would need a completely new implemented system to assure that only beginners are getting help. Repeatable rewards alone wouldn't solve the issue it only makes the rich people richer and here Anet has no interest in and me neither tbh.

    About the first point, idk just add a mentor system and give ppl the ability to rate mentors at the end of the run, limit it to only helping ppl that havent maxed their fractal climbing or smth. Give rewards at the end of the week based on your average rating.

    "Just add" is simply said but not easily done. Implementing such a system would take gazillions of hours of manpower. And we all know how this is going in GW2. We still don't have an ingame DPS meter or build templates. Not to speak about things like an additional SAB world or major improvements for festivals. I don't think
    they are even capable of delivering such a mentor system in the slightest.

  • @Vinceman.4572 said:
    "Just add" is simply said but not easily done. Implementing such a system would take gazillions of hours of manpower.

    Is there any automated system for promoting mentors that actually exists? I don't think it's theoretically possible at this point. In fact, how would it differ from any of the proposals for requiring people to prove leadership in order to "earn" a commander tag for WvW?

    Training isn't something that a bot does. It takes a combination of skills and every student learns differently. Heck, it's challenging to figure out how to promote educators without getting stuck "teaching to the test" or giving too much authority to a few individuals (not all of whom have altruistic intent in evaluating). Systems that rely on voting usually end up being about popularity, not about effectiveness.

    I don't mean to say there's nothing useful to be accomplished for MMOs. The point is that "just add" assumes that all the difficult work has already been done.


    A more likely scenario is for ANet to find ways that help support the existing mentoring communities. Build templates would help. As would an in-game DPS meter with logs available through a robust API. And an official, opt-in gear inspection tool (the API already allows for this and some of the mentoring communities have built API tools to make it work).

    That would make it easier for people on the fence about helping out to decide to jump in.

    Hype is the path to the dark side. Hype leads to unfulfilled expectations. Disappointment leads to anger. Anger leads to disgust. Disgust leads to "oh, new shinies! I'm back!"

  • ButcherofMalakir.4067ButcherofMalakir.4067 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Personaly I clear at least some bosses multiple times each week. Simply because I enjoy raiding. I dont raid for gold.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 15, 2019

    @Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:

    @zealex.9410 said:
    You could argue putting repeatable rewards on content could incentivise new players to get in on the action, wether thats finding a guild or watching/reading guides.

    The OP already made that argument and I agreed that incentivizing veterans to meet up with newbies is important. (And I'm positive ANet would agree, too.) The point is: it's not the only consideration. And a critical issue is that there don't seem to be non-abusable incentives that actually do increase engagement.

    There could be, in theory, but in practice that would require changing some existing game systems/introducing new ones. Which probably wouldn't be easy (or even possible without some heavy changes to the game).

    A good example is FF XiV levelling/main scenario roulettes. You queue once a day for an automatic duty finder queue for one of the story dungeons, and you receive a significant number of xp and tomestones (currency that's mostly used for getting better gear). And for the few dungeons that are very long and would probably be skipped by anyone that did them once, the rewards are significantly higher. Also, if you happen to be matched up with a new player (something that is easily recognizable, because they get cutscenes veterans no longer watch), there's an additional reward. There's also a penalty for leaving the duty after it has started, so in most cases it's usually better to push on even if you don't like the dungeon/your teammates.

    Now, in GW2 you don't probably need more xp, and veterans don't really need more gear (raid currency is enough for it anyway). You could use this kind of currency for other rewards however. Unfortunately, that kind of method wouldn't work with current LFG system - for it to work, the duty finder has to be random. And that brings a score of other issues that are not easily solvable (not having fixed roles being a major, but not the only one)

    In short, while the issue might have a solution, the cost of implementing it would probably end up way too big, ending in a net loss.

    Notice though, that the abovementioned system exists only for the easier content. The harder content doesn't use that incentive, because it is assumed that people attemtping it are not new to the game. Besides, the harder the content, and the greater chances of wiping over and over if you get bad teammates, the greater the rewards would need to be to incentivize players to put up with it anyway instead of just going static. And that can get out of hand very, very fast.

    Just ask yourself, how much would you want to be rewarded for putting up with 2 hours of raid fight wipe clownfiesta that doesn't end in a kill? How much you would want to be rewarded to put up with it more than few times?
    And how would those rewards be balanced if you found out a way to guarantee that kill (and in GW2, you would have found it)?

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Etria.3642Etria.3642 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I can guarantee you if MO was repeatable for the same rewards people would be spamming it. You can clear it, even with a totally casual group, and I mean totally casual, in less than 2 minutes. Even our group, who will sometimes miscommunicate(I /said/ I was protecting!!!) and wipe there once a month, can do it in less. That would be a hella lot of gold, drops, mag shards, the works.

    This would become more abused than Istan ever dreamed of being.

  • zealex.9410zealex.9410 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Vinceman.4572 said:

    @zealex.9410 said:
    Abusable? As in?

    and

    Another one would be to just let content be repeatable, as we saw in the raid thread about rewards ppl said it was nice to get some loot in reclears while helping newbies.

    Go hand in hand.
    Many players & raiders have more than one account. Those would be picked first to rerun things and get the rewards before people would help newer players. You would need a completely new implemented system to assure that only beginners are getting help. Repeatable rewards alone wouldn't solve the issue it only makes the rich people richer and here Anet has no interest in and me neither tbh.

    About the first point, idk just add a mentor system and give ppl the ability to rate mentors at the end of the run, limit it to only helping ppl that havent maxed their fractal climbing or smth. Give rewards at the end of the week based on your average rating.

    "Just add" is simply said but not easily done. Implementing such a system would take gazillions of hours of manpower. And we all know how this is going in GW2. We still don't have an ingame DPS meter or build templates. Not to speak about things like an additional SAB world or major improvements for festivals. I don't think
    they are even capable of delivering such a mentor system in the slightest.

    Ofc its gonna take hours of manpower but nothing comes free and if we are looking to improve the game without manpower then the game will run out of meaningful options real soon. Imo its better to put resources to the game and improve it than standing here argueing about it.

  • Vinceman.4572Vinceman.4572 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 15, 2019

    @zealex.9410 said:
    Ofc its gonna take hours of manpower but nothing comes free and if we are looking to improve the game without manpower then the game will run out of meaningful options real soon. Imo its better to put resources to the game and improve it than standing here argueing about it.

    You don't want to hear it I believe but it is pretty obvious that Anet's effort to improve the game has its priorities on other things than getting players into raiding. It was stated a thousand times now and is still valid and important to keep in mind: Raiding is an absolute niche content and nothing where they'll put in more than just needed. So, from this point maybe you understand that such a system that has to be implemented from the scratch with taking every disadvantage into consideration beforehand would be such a huge investment they are not able to stem in the slightest. People have to prove me wrong but till the recent days we don't have: build templates, a dps meter or even repeatable rewards although they already mentioned it once but they have no answer to that. Seeing that it's more than unlikely, no, it's totally excluded for me personally that we get such a system or similar things in the game the next 12 months - at best.
    Honestly, my opinion rather is that they'll never put more than just an additional raid wing + cms for the 3-4 bosses in the game - when it's done. That's all what raiders will get in this game ever. And it's fine because the core community of this game has interest in different things like events, open world and yadda yadda. Nothing I'm completely addicted to but that's how the GW2 universe is working.

  • Klypto.1703Klypto.1703 Member ✭✭✭

    This is why I don't bother with raids or fractals nothing to really gain from doing them and have to deal with these people what is the attraction to it lol.

  • zealex.9410zealex.9410 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Vinceman.4572 said:

    @zealex.9410 said:
    Ofc its gonna take hours of manpower but nothing comes free and if we are looking to improve the game without manpower then the game will run out of meaningful options real soon. Imo its better to put resources to the game and improve it than standing here argueing about it.

    You don't want to hear it I believe but it is pretty obvious that Anet's effort to improve the game has its priorities on other things than getting players into raiding.

    Never said it was about raiding, the first thong i thought of were actually dungeons and fractals.

    Honestly, my opinion rather is that they'll never put more than just an additional raid wing + cms for the 3-4 bosses in the game - when it's done. That's all what raiders will get in this game ever. And it's fine because the core community of this game has interest in different things like events, open world and yadda yadda. Nothing I'm completely addicted to but that's how the GW2 universe is working.

    Well they have at least 5 more fractals to add and the arguement about helping ppl with that and the possible reward that could entail aplies to it as well.

    Theres systems that would really benefit raiding if they were added but thats not the only part of the game that could benefit from such systems existing. A mentor system is just one of them.

  • Turial.1293Turial.1293 Member ✭✭
    edited July 15, 2019

    So there is some great comments here, and others that miss the point. The conversation is good to have regardless, there is a few replies I want to make though.

    @Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:
    There are two distinct issues:

    • What's in it for experienced raiders to slow down their first clear and/or to go without substantive rewards to clear multiple times?
    • What happens when there are additional rewards for multiple clears?
      The OP raises the first issue; ANet is worried about the second.
      When the game launched, and dungeons could be cleared regularly by experienced players, what happened was groups got very specific about comps to speed through and then they repeated them over and over again. They did not slow down for newer players to join & learn. Even as ANet added time gates to the rewards, this didn't substantially change: groups that repeat, repeat for speed, not for training.
      So the "reality" is that adding rewards for people willing to go again and again doesn't actually create a better space for training. Instead, it creates a reward structure that allows experienced players to earn more.
      (And no, it doesn't get much better by changing the requirements to include a minimum number of first clears, since there are plenty of ways to abuse that.)

    What happens when you offer loot? People play the content, they play it more often and that means others have a chance to play with them. More players that are taught the mechanic means more loot for the raiders. When the game first launched the GW2 manifesto was against raids, against mounts and against grind so I think it is safe to say that it's no longer the same game it was 7 years ago. People rushed through dungeons to be the best and elitism stopped them allowing anyone joining until they realised how casual it was. Elitists moved on to what was most profitable or what was seen as the toughest challenge in the game to try create monopolies, it's what they do. With GW2 and it's horizontal progression system however, the elitists are in the same area as the casuals so need to artifically create that wall. But as they played these areas daily they had to bring new people in little by little, players base knowledge grew and everyone began gaining. Look at the first Teqatl revamp or Triple Trouble, those things were a mess on the first few days until players helped players. Character or account limit was fine as it was a day at the most, it didn't really matter if you did it twice in the one day as it was available several times that day. Jumping back to raids, the limit is per week and while they are available 24/7 that is not when the playerbase does them. You must get your wing done within the first 3-6 hours of reset or there is a high possibility that you will not even see a group in LFG at all. This system doesn't work for raids and after 4 years the raid system is only available to a tiny, tiny portion of the playerbase. What you call the "experienced players" don't necessarily constitute as people that would exploit raids, some might, but they already profit as they get their full wings done on day 1 and they sell raids all week long. They have filled the hole in their pockets, they always will and refusing to update a system that would benefit the majority of players because a small few "might" take advantage of it when they already are making money hand over fist, doesn't make the game better. Raid participation is broken and it needs a new system after 4 years of this.

    @Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:
    It costs ANet to change the status quo. Arguing that "this wouldn't really make things worse" isn't an incentive to change things.

    Worse, it actually costs ANet something more than dev time to implement because now they have to balance rewards to take into account the speed-clearing contingent. It's not impossible to do so; it's just another headache for them.

    So the game should stay perpetually the same is your point here? It's not like videogames are really that expensive, especially ones with microtransactions. GW2 'boasts' 11 million accounts and if you break that down to let's say 5 million active players, let's say 1 million of those buy a salvage-o-matic for $10, that means Anet made $10M on just a single item alone and there is many, many more items in that cash shop. I'm rounding off the numbers very roughly here but you get my point, they can afford it. I know people were let go recently but that is a management decision from above and not by choice of the GW2 team. They probably are busy on things we don't know about cough expansion; and yet still that doesn't change that their are systems in the game right now that do not work. Look at balance patches, they take time and are headaches too but are essential to the health of the game. When you are siphoning off 95% of your playerbase away from the content you create then it's a problem. Especially if all that work was such a headache to begin with, why lock it way to a minority? It needs to be updated.

    @Vinceman.4572 said:
    Many players & raiders have more than one account. Those would be picked first to rerun things and get the rewards before people would help newer players. You would need a completely new implemented system to assure that only beginners are getting help. Repeatable rewards alone wouldn't solve the issue it only makes the rich people richer and here Anet has no interest in and me neither tbh.
    "Just add" is simply said but not easily done. Implementing such a system would take gazillions of hours of manpower. And we all know how this is going in GW2. We still don't have an ingame DPS meter or build templates. Not to speak about things like an additional SAB world or major improvements for festivals. I don't think
    they are even capable of delivering such a mentor system in the slightest.

    Many people do have multiple accounts whether they multibox or play each legitimately, they still have to play those raids, they still earn their rewards. Speaking of rewards, almost all rewards in raids are account bound anyway so it's not like they would get much profit. Who cares if they run their alt accounts first, once they are done and out of the way, it means they will eventually have to help other players (based on a reward system for first time clears). The people that really care about DPS meters already use one out of game, build templates are on the way and while a mentor system seems very complicated, nobody is saying that is how it should be done. The point raised in the OP is that the current system is not working for 95% of the game, this is wasted development time if your players cannot even access it 4 years later.

    @Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:
    A more likely scenario is for ANet to find ways that help support the existing mentoring communities. Build templates would help. As would an in-game DPS meter with logs available through a robust API. And an official, opt-in gear inspection tool (the API already allows for this and some of the mentoring communities have built API tools to make it work).

    That would make it easier for people on the fence about helping out to decide to jump in.

    Sorry, I know I have quoted you three times now but it's not personal haha. I disagree completely here, a gear inspect tool.... this isn't (that MMO we won't name) and doing so will increase the elitism in the game, it will just shift kill proofs to gear check and gear has nothing to do with skill, more so in GW2 where all gear is horizontal and content is balanced based on exotic gear. Not counting agony resistance as it's a unique addition but you can get through every bit of content in this game with exotic gear if you can play your class well, Anet pride themselves on that. I think both kill proofs and gear inspect should be booted to the curb as it goes agaisnt what GW2 envisioned itself to be, all inclusive.

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    In short, while the issue might have a solution, the cost of implementing it would probably end up way too big, ending in a net loss.

    Just ask yourself, how much would you want to be rewarded for putting up with 2 hours of raid fight wipe clownfiesta that doesn't end in a kill? How much you would want to be rewarded to put up with it more than few times?
    And how would those rewards be balanced if you found out a way to guarantee that kill (and in GW2, you would have found it)?

    As I said above, the cost is miniscule and if it's so big of a net loss to create it then why bother with the creation of raids for the 5% of players? That is a net loss, developing a game that people don't play. People already play for 2 hours with pugs and get a few measly shards for a fail, that is the ones lucky enough to get a group that either 1) doesn't fall apart every 10 minutes when someone drops and 2) manage to get a group past the first few hours of reset. How would they be balanced? Well that is Anet's job isn't it? You can't stop people from finding the most efficient route but you can stop them from exploiting it and blocking other players from playing content.

    You also mention that "Raiding is an absolute niche content" well I gotta say "what an absolute waste of development time then". What is the point of making content that 95% of your playerbase cannot get a group for except for 3-6 hours after reset if they are not already in a static group otherwise they have to buy raids. The current system is very flawed.

  • Turial.1293Turial.1293 Member ✭✭
    edited July 15, 2019

    ~delete please~

  • Turial.1293Turial.1293 Member ✭✭
    edited July 15, 2019

    ~delete please~

  • Turial.1293Turial.1293 Member ✭✭
    edited July 15, 2019

    ~delete please~

  • Turial.1293Turial.1293 Member ✭✭
    edited July 15, 2019

    ~delete please~

  • Vinceman.4572Vinceman.4572 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 15, 2019

    @Turial.1293 said:
    You must get your wing done within the first 3-6 hours of reset or there is a high possibility that you will not even see a group in LFG at all.

    That's not true I can still get bosses & clears over the week without any problems. If I don't find the right group I open a squad myself and it is working fine. Maybe there are days/weeks where you won't get a full clear but that's the optimum anyways and not seriously needed.

    This system doesn't work for raids and after 4 years the raid system is only available to a tiny, tiny portion of the playerbase.

    Yes, the question is: Does it need any serious changes? You won't bring most players into raids due to one single reason: It's too hard for them or better said: They are not in the mood to invest that much time you need to beat one or several bosses. Speaking of adjusting builds, learning easy to hard rotations plus practice the encounters.
    I'm in a big community with 2 guilds in which the leader is streaming GW2 almost every day. He started trying to organize raids for beginners. Guess what the first couple of times around 50% of the players signing up were veterans although everybody was encouraged to join and taken before veteran players. Usually those community members participate in most of the advertised stuff. After several weeks - they got 5-6 bosses down on every evening - only veterans were signing up. After having asked the others it turned out that all of them weren't interested in raiding because it's just not their business to kill bosses without real story, not using the mounts and more. Now there are 3-5 people left from both guilds who want to seriously continue raiding and we will do so the next weeks.

    Many people do have multiple accounts whether they multibox or play each legitimately, they still have to play those raids, they still earn their rewards. Speaking of rewards, almost all rewards in raids are account bound anyway so it's not like they would get much profit. Who cares if they run their alt accounts first, once they are done and out of the way, it means they will eventually have to help other players (based on a reward system for first time clears). The people that really care about DPS meters already use one out of game, build templates are on the way and while a mentor system seems very complicated, nobody is saying that is how it should be done. The point raised in the OP is that the current system is not working for 95% of the game, this is wasted development time if your players cannot even access it 4 years later.

    You also mention that "Raiding is an absolute niche content" well I gotta say "what an absolute waste of development time then". What is the point of making content that 95% of your playerbase cannot get a group for except for 3-6 hours after reset if they are not already in a static group otherwise they have to buy raids. The current system is very flawed.

    "Eventually", yes, maybe. But I highly doubt it. I've raided enough myself, compared notes with others & seen enough raid streams over the last years that it's highly questionable that a lot will change their attitude and suddenly help others. Nice & friendly people are already helping and organizing training runs be it in communities, guilds or just via LFG.
    A further thought: Are raids wasted development time? Well, that's a thing only Anet could answer. I think that they have calculated that for them very well. Raid releases are around every 8-9 months which is pretty slow. They know they cannot hold all the raiding enthusiasts but it seems it is enough to hold a certain kind of player in the game that'll stay or come back for raids AND spend money in the gem shop and therefore have their impact on revenues. Otherwise we wouldn't have seen 7 raid wings in total.

    I welcome every new idea and things that would improve here and there no matter what situation that is in the game but from my impression it's only a very tiny proportion that cannot get into raiding but wants it very badly. All the others have found their way in by being proactive for example by joining friends, communities, guilds, discords or trying the hard way via LFG only. And trust me, if you know what you're doing you won't have any problems to get into raiding without being a professional or very skilled player.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 15, 2019

    Suppose that they add some rewards for repeating raids. What will stop existing raid teams to play the same raid with the same people over and over? In other words, how is adding repeatable rewards in raids going to allow more players to experience them? If not full team they can go with 9 plus 1random

  • Iozeph.5617Iozeph.5617 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 17, 2019

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    Suppose that they add some rewards for repeating raids. What will stop existing raid teams to play the same raid with the same people over and over? In other words, how is adding repeatable rewards in raids going to allow more players to experience them? If not full team they can go with 9 plus 1random

    Nothing would stop them. I mean what sort of community saints are we talking about in this best case scenario?

    Because in general the random is just a warm body and tends to get screwed by the regulars. At least in my past experiences raiding. In truth there's no incentive for being the random- they're expected to perform well- to 'prove themselves' to the group.

    Chances are good the group won't be the least interested in taking the slower approach to accomplish whatever earn-once achievements they'd acquired on the way to setting that bit of content on farm. So that's gone. Why? They're there to farm- to be in and out as quickly as possible, and the random slows them up. Because of that they'll be rushed, struggling to keep up, and utterly subject to the group's whims.

    Take this- I've seen it many times where the person who hadn't logged in on time -which necessitated pulling in that warm body in the first place- suddenly showed up a third or even half way through things - the random would often be expected to leave or would simply be kicked to allow their regular in. Perhaps if they're lucky they'd get a perfunctory, 'Sorry man,' in a private tell by one of the group but little more than that. And there's your evening. What fun! It's terrible, but that's just the way it runs.

    -And please don't say, "Well, they should have found a better group," because if that was so we wouldn't be setting here talking about ways to pull more people in to play what some here consider to be a dwindling player base for a niche game mode. The group needed a body- and the random was desperate just to see the content.

    Want to get more people into the mode? It's nothing that hasn't been tossed about here a hundred times- Make a scaling levels of difficulty. Five, ten and twenty player versions and call the five player versions the new dungeons. All three have a path to the same rewards via a token system with a dungeon/raid vendor in lion's arch or wherever they put them now. Those electing to stick with five-manning it will have a longer, slower road via fewer tokens rewarded in any given run. But at least they get to experience the contents. And at least the moneys and hours spent crafting them it won't have gone to waste because a lot more people will choose to try them out.

  • Cerioth.7062Cerioth.7062 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Because it's fun.

  • i just do it when im bored and have nothing else to do, what else am i gonna do once i've cleared my raids for the week.

  • Griever.8150Griever.8150 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 16, 2019

    Don't. Just don't complain the game is dead when your raid group falls apart tho.

  • I'm in favor of Teapot's idea of a core gw wizard's tower raid that acts as an easier introduction to raiding for players transitioning into that type of endgame.

  • Raizel.8175Raizel.8175 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Well...

    The major problem is that the game is rather antisocial, isn't it? It's hard to actually find and/or to put together a decent and stable squad - it's even already quite difficult to put together a static for fractals due to the antisocial nature of GW2.

    Then of course you have these "the rich get richer" problems MMORPGs suffer from in general, which is embodied in GW2 through the KP-systems. You're quite screwed if you start late since the requirements are ever rising meaning you won't ever catch up - especially since you certainly won't be able to full-clear upon starting raiding.

    No idea how to change that in any meaningful and efficient way though.

  • Yasi.9065Yasi.9065 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 19, 2019

    @Blocki.4931 said:
    Because you will never know whether your group will stay together or not. The moment a single person drops out and needs to be replaced you know your answer.

    Before the reward nerf I used to think along those lines. To improve the raiding in general and so on.
    Now? If someone leaves my static, Im going to replace him with someone dependable that I then train on properly doing mechanics - though so far I got lucky and always found experienced, dependable and good players for my static.
    Im done wasting my time on training pug newbies. If anet wants the raidscene to survive THEY have to step up. Add easy-/trainingsmode. Make training newbies rewarding etc. Maybe if anet shows support towards raidtraining Ill come back to it, but as it is? Hell, no.

  • Raizel.8175Raizel.8175 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Yasi.9065 said:
    Im done wasting my time on training pug newbies. If anet wants the raidscene to survive THEY have to step up. Add easy-/trainingsmode. Make training newbies rewarding etc. Maybe if anet shows support towards raidtraining Ill come back to it, but as it is? Hell, no.

    I don't really think that an easy- and/or training-mode will help whatsoever. GW2s raid-content works almost purely on a mechanical level - dps is more or less not the issue and if it is, people first can - and probably should - learn rotations on the golem or even on open world bosses etc. How is such an easy- and/or training-mode supposed to work in the first place? Most people suggested to lower the incoming damage while also making failing mechanics less punishing. The problem though is: How are support-classes supposed to properly learn mechanics that way? How do you want to reward training newbies etc.? People already stated that there could be a huge risk of abuse involved. Besides the problems I've already mentioned, I think that raid-content is far too separated from the main-game in the first place.

  • sokeenoppa.5384sokeenoppa.5384 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Personally i help new raiders, lead trainings for them etc etc etc so i could reduce he amount of "too hard to get into raiding" posts 😅

    I'll have two number 9s, a number 9 large, a number 6 with extra dip, a number 7, two number 45s, one with cheese, and a large soda.

  • tim.4596tim.4596 Member ✭✭✭

    @Turial.1293 said:
    Now I don't mean me personally but ask yourself this question, what's in it for you? You get your guild group together at reset, rush through the raid wings in about 3 hours and then you are done for the week, no more rewards, you are capped. You see guildie after guildie ask in chat, you see pugs beg in map chat for a full party so they can even practice.... but why bother? You don't get any rewards for helping them, not even blues/greens, you get zilch. Maybe you can join the raid sellers instead, at least that way you get gold and others can get their raid done, who cares if they understand the mechanics or learn anything, what is important is that you make money. If only there was a system in place where you got extra loot if someone in the party completes their first clear of a wing, that could be incentive but that doesn't exist. You get nothing, why bother?

    Maybe I should pose the question to the GW2 Raid Devs instead? There is only a small numbers of players that complete raids weekly and everyone else has to suck it up; the current system is flawed, especially when you consider that the only constant day to day is raid sellers in the LFG tool. No issue with raid sellers mind you, they are just filling a gap that the devs have left wide open. GW2 Raids have an artifical barrier built in that makes it harder and harder for the casual player to experience them, if you don't have 100 kill proofs then you cannot join but they can't get a group so they cannot join, it's a catch 22. This isn't a topic on the difficulty of raids by the way, just the lack of rewards for everyone. It's a minority of players that do full clears every week with the vast majority of players not able to find groups and it has nothing to do with their gear or skill levels, plenty are able for raids but if you don't play by reset each week, then you just don't play and that is the reality.

    Update: The emphasis of my post has less to do with rewards and more to do with a flawed raid system that cuts off 95% of the playerbase by it's design, not by player choice.

    The answer is very easy:

    1. If you're a true raider, you only play this game to do raids
    2. Because you're bored
  • Turial.1293Turial.1293 Member ✭✭

    @Vinceman.4572 said:

    I'm in a big community with 2 guilds in which the leader is streaming GW2 almost every day. He started trying to organize raids for beginners. Guess what the first couple of times around 50% of the players signing up were veterans although everybody was encouraged to join and taken before veteran players. Usually those community members participate in most of the advertised stuff. After several weeks - they got 5-6 bosses down on every evening - only veterans were signing up. After having asked the others it turned out that all of them weren't interested in raiding because it's just not their business to kill bosses without real story, not using the mounts and more. Now there are 3-5 people left from both guilds who want to seriously continue raiding and we will do so the next weeks.

    I'm glad you say that, so a big community with 2 guilds means one of those guilds had to hit 500 before overflow brought you to a 2nd guild for that community effectively giving you the capacity to hold 1000 members. For arguments sake, let's say you have 500 members and that most of them participate in your guild events and yet only several weeks later you were taking only veterans and less than a full party are actually still interested in raids. This is what I am talking about, raids have failed to keep peoples interest and the ones that do end up being vets (or speedrunners). This to me is significant of a large problem with the game when 95% do not participate.

    Personally I don't think raids are exceptionally hard and some will agree/disagree with that statement but it all depends on gear and practice. The quote below to me is the perfect view of the raid scene for most people. Why help other players train raids, it's just not worth it.

    @Yasi.9065 said:
    If someone leaves my static, Im going to replace him with someone dependable that I then train on properly doing mechanics.
    Im done wasting my time on training pug newbies. If anet wants the raidscene to survive THEY have to step up. Add easy-/trainingsmode. Make training newbies rewarding etc. Maybe if anet shows support towards raidtraining Ill come back to it, but as it is? Hell, no.

  • zoomborg.9462zoomborg.9462 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 27, 2019

    @Skotlex.7580 said:
    If this is specifically about raids, I imagine there's a few possible reasons to help new people out. Such as:
    1. Looking to increase the raid playerbase
    2. Looking for people who to be part of your organized runs
    3. boredom (because raids are too easy when everybody knows the mechanics)
    4. To show off by attempting to carry the squad (which was totally what was happening when chronomancer could use party-distortion)
    5. Because one enjoys teaching others.

    These things used to happen like a year ago, unfortunately the people you are training are supposed to take the wheel at some point and lead their own groups or at least keep the scene going but that never actually happened. Also people who had statics still joined pugs to train new classes/new builds but atm very little is changing and most of the intricacies that made builds fun are gone, almost all classes have been completely streamlined at this point. Distortion share made chrono very fun and challenging to play, staff temp/sc wh temp/staff weaver/condi engi etc etc were very risky but very rewarding hence fun... now all builds seem boring and very limited. There is no "edge" anymore.There is no point in having a class mastered.

    The brutal truth for me is that the first wave of raiders aka the veterans had to learn raids the hard way, no guides, no meta builds, no training communities. Just simply go in and wipe for hours until u get things done. These people came together through raids,played long hours, made communities and played for the sake of gameplay alone regardless of rewards. These are the people that still play together in discord statics, being completely fed up with lfg and just raid with their static and fullclear within 3h without breaking a sweat.

    My experience from leading training raids has been that the new waves of raiders arent willing to put that kind of effort, not in the slightest. They just wanna take as less responsibility as possible, afk dps on the boss and hope that some1 in the group actually gives a kitten and tries to carry if things go bad. After a while leading training groups becomes tedious cause not everyone has the same mindset in the group. You basically have 2-3 people at best who tryhard and wanna get their first kill and the rest just dont give a kitten or skillclick after playing the game for years...... You realize it when u see a training group 9/10 asking for a chronotank on VG. Basically no1 wants to take the most important role, no1 wants to learn the important roles like druids pushing and entangling, every just wanna afk dps or something even if their dps is kitten.Add to that, after the initial clear you actually lose gold from replaying raids as the rewards you get dont even cover your food/utility. There is, absolutely, no point on helping new people atm. The game doesnt reward you, people dont put any effort or appreciate the time a veteran puts in organizing a chaotic and long training run and anet has pretty much given up on keeping the mode even slightly competitive and exciting.

  • Super Hayes.6890Super Hayes.6890 Member ✭✭✭

    I want to do raids. I want to earn legendary armor. I really like the heavy set. I tried to get involved a few day ago. What a nightmare! Unless I buy the raids I'm stuck. I'd like to see something happen that populates the lfg with more than raid sellers or groups that demand experience. I don't have the time to make gw2 raids a part time job either. Get rid of the weekly reward cap and see what happens please. If it breaks the game you can put the reward cap back on. For now players like me can just "want to raid" from afar. Seems pointless to try in its current state.

    The next time you get angry at someone try walking a mile in their shoes. After that, who cares! You're a mile away and you have their shoes! -Someone with more awesome quotes than me

  • Rhiannon.1726Rhiannon.1726 Member ✭✭✭

    @Super Hayes.6890 said:
    I want to do raids. I want to earn legendary armor. I really like the heavy set. I tried to get involved a few day ago. What a nightmare! Unless I buy the raids I'm stuck. I'd like to see something happen that populates the lfg with more than raid sellers or groups that demand experience. I don't have the time to make gw2 raids a part time job either. Get rid of the weekly reward cap and see what happens please. If it breaks the game you can put the reward cap back on. For now players like me can just "want to raid" from afar. Seems pointless to try in its current state.

    The best way to start raiding is joining a guild that accepts beginners.

    If you don't want to join a guild you could join one of the training discords. You can get infos at https://snowcrows.com/raids/training/

  • Super Hayes.6890Super Hayes.6890 Member ✭✭✭

    Thanks for the link!

    The next time you get angry at someone try walking a mile in their shoes. After that, who cares! You're a mile away and you have their shoes! -Someone with more awesome quotes than me

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