Plea about new reaper changes — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Plea about new reaper changes

leunamsil.6742leunamsil.6742 Member ✭✭✭

I doubt that any dev in Arena Net actually reads the instanced pve forums but i really need to say this. The change you are going to make with Soul Eater will again bench any power reaper from raiding or t4 fractals in a decent level. Without any capability of being healed while in shroud the reaper will have to decide whether to go to RS and continue its rotation or just stay put and wait to be healed, losing A LOT of dps. No other class needs to decide this. And it isn't like we have way more dmg than everyone else so the removal of Soul Eater is a significant nerf to any reaper doing anything but openworld. Please reconcider this, its been ages since power reaper has been decent and capable of raiding and this, if i'm not mistaken, will kill it again

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Comments

  • leunamsil.6742leunamsil.6742 Member ✭✭✭

    Problem is a lot of bosses have unavoidable damage in todays meta. VG green's, Gorse extended break bar, MO ground damage and so on. I just don't want to see a spec with its viability on the low end to became even lower =/

  • Vinceman.4572Vinceman.4572 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @leunamsil.6742 said:
    Problem is a lot of bosses have unavoidable damage in todays meta. VG green's, Gorse extended break bar, MO ground damage and so on. I just don't want to see a spec with its viability on the low end to became even lower =/

    Seriously, if power DDs and DHs already survive in pugs today why on earth would that change to reaper make anything else different? If you die to MO ground damage you literally are a very bad player and should learn mechanics first. Same counts for VG greens and Gorse.
    Raids aren't there for easily brute forceing them - at least not for the usual raiding player base, speed run attempts/guilds are a different thing.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dadnir.5038 said:
    You're mistaken. What brought the reaper to be competitive isn't the healing part of the trait but the bit of extra damage that the trait bring.

    It was both. Reaper damage was good enough when tied to its susteinability. The same damage levels would not have been good enough on a class that would need to put much more effort to reach them.

    It's not a class someone would pick for damage alone. Up to now it had the advantage of good survivability, but now it has the disadvantage of not being healable half of the time.

    Sure PuG will suffer a bit because there are people like you that voice unnecessary concern about reaper's viability in raid after the patch. But at the end of the day, the reaper's efficiency won't suffer from this change and at best reaper players will just have to position themself a bit better.

    Best reaper players need to be compared to best players using other classes. When you compare to average pugs, you need to look at average reaper players.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Vinceman.4572Vinceman.4572 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 15, 2019

    @leunamsil.6742 said:

    @Vinceman.4572 said:

    @leunamsil.6742 said:
    Problem is a lot of bosses have unavoidable damage in todays meta. VG green's, Gorse extended break bar, MO ground damage and so on. I just don't want to see a spec with its viability on the low end to became even lower =/

    Seriously, if power DDs and DHs already survive in pugs today why on earth would that change to reaper make anything else different? If you die to MO ground damage you literally are a very bad player and should learn mechanics first. Same counts for VG greens and Gorse.
    Raids aren't there for easily brute forceing them - at least not for the usual raiding player base, speed run attempts/guilds are a different thing.

    The problem isn't dying, noone dies to that, the problem is you need to interrupt your rotation in order to wait for healing. you can't be healed in shroud and soul eater helped a lot with that. Imagine that a berserker couldn't be healed while in berserker stance, they would have to wait to be healed before entering, therefor messing their rotation

    Since you're constantly healed and almost all the time above 90% health due to the need for scholar bonus anyways and you won't lose health in the shroud average reaper players still won't suffer. If you can't maintain IT you should really change out rune of scholar first before thinking of any other part in the build.
    I really really don't see a problem here for decent and good players. All others need to improve if this is an issue for them because they are literally very bad players. Period.
    Laughable at best, real laughable.

  • I don't see a reason why an average players performance should not be average.

  • Josiah.2967Josiah.2967 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 15, 2019

    @Dadnir.5038 said:
    You're mistaken. What brought the reaper to be competitive isn't the healing part of the trait but the bit of extra damage that the trait bring. The benchmark will stay the same because people that release "meta builds" have good enough mastery of the game mechanism to barely need any heal in raid and take support mainly for offensive support.

    Sure PuG will suffer a bit because there are people like you that voice unnecessary concern about reaper's viability in raid after the patch. But at the end of the day, the reaper's efficiency won't suffer from this change and at best reaper players will just have to position themself a bit better.

    I am sorry, but it's the healing in Shroud that made it viable. We are the only class with a downside for using our DPS cooldown, and our DPS cooldown must be used to stay bottom tier competitive.

  • Vinceman.4572Vinceman.4572 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Josiah.2967 said:

    @Dadnir.5038 said:
    You're mistaken. What brought the reaper to be competitive isn't the healing part of the trait but the bit of extra damage that the trait bring. The benchmark will stay the same because people that release "meta builds" have good enough mastery of the game mechanism to barely need any heal in raid and take support mainly for offensive support.

    Sure PuG will suffer a bit because there are people like you that voice unnecessary concern about reaper's viability in raid after the patch. But at the end of the day, the reaper's efficiency won't suffer from this change and at best reaper players will just have to position themself a bit better.

    I am sorry, but it's the healing in Shroud that made it viable. We are the only class with a downside for using our DPS cooldown, and our DPS cooldown must be used to stay bottom tier competitive.

    That's nonsense.

  • Nephalem.8921Nephalem.8921 Member ✭✭✭

    @Vinceman.4572 said:

    @Josiah.2967 said:

    @Dadnir.5038 said:
    You're mistaken. What brought the reaper to be competitive isn't the healing part of the trait but the bit of extra damage that the trait bring. The benchmark will stay the same because people that release "meta builds" have good enough mastery of the game mechanism to barely need any heal in raid and take support mainly for offensive support.

    Sure PuG will suffer a bit because there are people like you that voice unnecessary concern about reaper's viability in raid after the patch. But at the end of the day, the reaper's efficiency won't suffer from this change and at best reaper players will just have to position themself a bit better.

    I am sorry, but it's the healing in Shroud that made it viable. We are the only class with a downside for using our DPS cooldown, and our DPS cooldown must be used to stay bottom tier competitive.

    That's nonsense.

    Then lets remove healing while ranger's sick'em is active. Or weaver gets no heal at all during multi hit attacks. Still nonsense and wouldn't affect good players? Not getting heal in shroud means 10sec+ scholar downtime without any way to get it back.
    This means almost no scholar uptime in fractals if you get hit once by anything before entering shroud. All the other stuff heals instantly up with kalla active. This change helped a lot for scholar uptime and actually helped the kitten shroud mechanic.
    It was already hard enough to stay competitive with 100% scholar vs decent players on good professions.
    How much experience do you have with reaper in fractals/raids though?

  • Vegeta.2563Vegeta.2563 Member ✭✭✭

    It said it would no longer heal while "shroud life" replaces health. Maybe this means it'll give you life force in shroud??

  • It was already hard enough to stay competitive with 100% scholar vs decent players on good professions.
    How much experience do you have with reaper in fractals/raids though?

    Soul eater nerf will hardly change much i think. Also it's laughable that people still think reaper is not a good profession or that it is hard to stay competitive when reapers are almost always top dps in my groups and usually by a good margin. Yeah top guilds like SC won't use reaper, but they never did anyway. FOr any decent reaper this will be no big deal.

    As for how much experience with reaper I have in raids and fractals, it's my main class for both. Used reaper for the better part of 2 sets of legendary armor and the ring.

  • Magnus Godrik.5841Magnus Godrik.5841 Member ✭✭✭✭

    If you pug often dont use scholar at all. Eagle runes are the way to go. Often during the second half of most boss encounters pugs struggle to keep your health above the threshold. In the end we all want the kill and not the wipe and this ensures you hit harder when kitten hits the fan.

  • sokeenoppa.5384sokeenoppa.5384 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Magnus Godrik.5841 said:
    If you pug often dont use scholar at all. Eagle runes are the way to go. Often during the second half of most boss encounters pugs struggle to keep your health above the threshold. In the end we all want the kill and not the wipe and this ensures you hit harder when kitten hits the fan.

    Well thats just stupid. You should never use eagle runes as a reaper.

    I'll have two number 9s, a number 9 large, a number 6 with extra dip, a number 7, two number 45s, one with cheese, and a large soda.

  • Magnus Godrik.5841Magnus Godrik.5841 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:

    @Magnus Godrik.5841 said:
    If you pug often dont use scholar at all. Eagle runes are the way to go. Often during the second half of most boss encounters pugs struggle to keep your health above the threshold. In the end we all want the kill and not the wipe and this ensures you hit harder when kitten hits the fan.

    Well thats just stupid. You should never use eagle runes as a reaper.

    So, let me get this straight, you would rather keep scholar runes even tho your pug group cant keep that threshold for most of the fight. Wow that is brilliant. Have you even played in a pug group?

  • OutOfOrder.3719OutOfOrder.3719 Member ✭✭✭

    You are being silly. The nerf to Soul Reaping from two patches ago that makes you choose between 10% damage or vitality and a boost to incoming healing is what nerfed necros in general.

  • sokeenoppa.5384sokeenoppa.5384 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Magnus Godrik.5841 said:

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:

    @Magnus Godrik.5841 said:
    If you pug often dont use scholar at all. Eagle runes are the way to go. Often during the second half of most boss encounters pugs struggle to keep your health above the threshold. In the end we all want the kill and not the wipe and this ensures you hit harder when kitten hits the fan.

    Well thats just stupid. You should never use eagle runes as a reaper.

    So, let me get this straight, you would rather keep scholar runes even tho your pug group cant keep that threshold for most of the fight. Wow that is brilliant. Have you even played in a pug group?

    Yes and yes. I dont know how Bad pug groups you join 😅

    I'll have two number 9s, a number 9 large, a number 6 with extra dip, a number 7, two number 45s, one with cheese, and a large soda.

  • Vinceman.4572Vinceman.4572 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 17, 2019

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:

    @Magnus Godrik.5841 said:

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:

    @Magnus Godrik.5841 said:
    If you pug often dont use scholar at all. Eagle runes are the way to go. Often during the second half of most boss encounters pugs struggle to keep your health above the threshold. In the end we all want the kill and not the wipe and this ensures you hit harder when kitten hits the fan.

    Well thats just stupid. You should never use eagle runes as a reaper.

    So, let me get this straight, you would rather keep scholar runes even tho your pug group cant keep that threshold for most of the fight. Wow that is brilliant. Have you even played in a pug group?

    Yes and yes. I dont know how Bad pug groups you join 😅

    Agreed, being decent with power reaper in fractals = ez pz last man standing. It's no wonder why many average pug players choose power reaper for their casual t4 runs. DPS is existing and you are tanky af. But it's also no surprise why they do that. From my experience people tank everything they can and aren't familiar with encounters. Plus even obvious indicators are being ignored and sometimes you hear the voice: "Healer, do your job."
    In raid scenarios it doesn't even matter in the slightest because if a raid group has so many issues with keeping up health bars they should either pick an additional healer or substitute the actual one(s).
    I mean most pug raids aren't single healing squads and 2 healers must be enough to keep people alive for the overwhelming majority of all raid bosses. One could even pick a third healer for some bosses and still be years ago from reaching the enrage timer.

  • Eramonster.2718Eramonster.2718 Member ✭✭✭✭

    This trait no longer heals while shroud life force replaces health.

    Tested it after the patch (with open world stuff) and aside from the change mentioned above, the trait function remains the same as before. Just need to get used to no more healing while in shroud eg.10k++ heal with Soul Spiral :confused:.

  • sokeenoppa.5384sokeenoppa.5384 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Vinceman.4572 said:

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:

    @Magnus Godrik.5841 said:

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:

    @Magnus Godrik.5841 said:
    If you pug often dont use scholar at all. Eagle runes are the way to go. Often during the second half of most boss encounters pugs struggle to keep your health above the threshold. In the end we all want the kill and not the wipe and this ensures you hit harder when kitten hits the fan.

    Well thats just stupid. You should never use eagle runes as a reaper.

    So, let me get this straight, you would rather keep scholar runes even tho your pug group cant keep that threshold for most of the fight. Wow that is brilliant. Have you even played in a pug group?

    Yes and yes. I dont know how Bad pug groups you join 😅

    Agreed, being decent with power reaper in fractals = ez pz last man standing. It's no wonder why many average pug players choose power reaper for their casual t4 runs. DPS is existing and you are tanky af. But it's also no surprise why they do that. From my experience people tank everything they can and aren't familiar with encounters. Plus even obvious indicators are being ignored and sometimes you hear the voice: "Healer, do your job."
    In raid scenarios it doesn't even matter in the slightest because if a raid group has so many issues with keeping up health bars they should either pick an additional healer or substitute the actual one(s).
    I mean most pug raids aren't single healing squads and 2 healers must be enough to keep people alive for the overwhelming majority of all raid bosses. One could even pick a third healer for some bosses and still be years ago from reaching the enrage timer.

    Yeah and many Raid bosses deal close to zero dmg to you exept few attacks that you should avoid anyways. Lets take dhuum for example (stupid to play preaper there but anyways), just slack behind the boss and sidestep few AOEs you should be able to go in shroud with full health there.

    I'll have two number 9s, a number 9 large, a number 6 with extra dip, a number 7, two number 45s, one with cheese, and a large soda.

  • zealex.9410zealex.9410 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 17, 2019

    @Vinceman.4572 said:

    @leunamsil.6742 said:
    Problem is a lot of bosses have unavoidable damage in todays meta. VG green's, Gorse extended break bar, MO ground damage and so on. I just don't want to see a spec with its viability on the low end to became even lower =/

    Seriously, if power DDs and DHs already survive in pugs today why on earth would that change to reaper make anything else different? If you die to MO ground damage you literally are a very bad player and should learn mechanics first. Same counts for VG greens and Gorse.
    Raids aren't there for easily brute forceing them - at least not for the usual raiding player base, speed run attempts/guilds are a different thing.

    Doesnt it have to do with not being able to be healed while in sf which means if you get in sf with less than 90% hp u wont have the benefit of scholar dmg buff. Unlike dh or dd which can always be healed.

    Do correct me if im wrong tho, i dont think this its about dying.

  • Vinceman.4572Vinceman.4572 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 17, 2019

    @zealex.9410 said:

    @Vinceman.4572 said:

    @leunamsil.6742 said:
    Problem is a lot of bosses have unavoidable damage in todays meta. VG green's, Gorse extended break bar, MO ground damage and so on. I just don't want to see a spec with its viability on the low end to became even lower =/

    Seriously, if power DDs and DHs already survive in pugs today why on earth would that change to reaper make anything else different? If you die to MO ground damage you literally are a very bad player and should learn mechanics first. Same counts for VG greens and Gorse.
    Raids aren't there for easily brute forceing them - at least not for the usual raiding player base, speed run attempts/guilds are a different thing.

    Doesnt it have to do with not being able to be healed while in sf which means if you get in sf with less than 90% hp u wont have the benefit of scholar dmg buff. Unlike dh or dd which can always be healed.

    Do correct me if im wrong tho, i dont think this its about dying.

    It was already pointed out in this thread that experienced players know when crucial damage spikes from bosses occur and how to avoid them so they would actually be aware when to use shroud and maybe when not and delay or wait for steps in their standard rotation.
    The problem with this change only arises for a certain kind of reaper player: The ones who just brainlessly smashes buttons, did not avoid damage from bosses/mobs and went into shroud with 25% hp for a 2nd hp-bar meanwhile getting healed up. Of course these players will suffer a lot now but that's totally fine since they are not to be rewarded for this play style.
    Additionally, I've yet to see a fractal group (not to speak about raid groups which - also already mentioned - mostly have 2 dedicated healers in pugs) that is struggling with surviving in the scenario the OP is describing because he is mentioning "...being healed while in shroud.." which means explicitly that there is a healer in the group. So, if you run t4s with a healer and still cannot maintain scholar uptime there are only 2 reaons for it: Your healer is terrible or you are. For the 2nd aspect (since No 1 can only be solved by substituting the healer) it's totally fine if you are able to execute your rotation but that doesn't mean you just stand there doing it, eating all the damage and relying on your healer to be backed up. This is not skillful play, that is what I call overestimated trash and why I have to frown everytime I'm playing a full glass cannon and squishy dps class and have power reapers in my pug group that are struggling very hard or even dying way before me although we have a healer. And tbh this was before the patch.
    Good players who were/are actually aware of their scholar buff uptime will be as well now, rather avoid getting hit and continue with their rotation in shroud when above the threshold.

  • TanksK.4795TanksK.4795 Member ✭✭✭

    You should plea this in WvW and PvP forum instead.

  • Funky.4861Funky.4861 Member ✭✭✭

    I agree with OP on this one.

    The difference between 89% hp and 90% hp with scholar runes is a 10% damage buff- if you use your class mechanic for a dps burst at 89% hp and can't be healed then your burst is nerfed.

    It's not about going into shroud with obviously low health. Sometimes all it takes is one hit to knock you below 90% and then you have the choice to hold going into shroud whilst you wait for a heal or just using your sub-optimal burst anyway- in either case your barely decent dps is tumbling anyway.

    The comparison with berserker stance is spot-on; i don't imagine many warriors would be happy if they couldn't be healed during zerk stance and had to make the same choice.

    The final component is experience, both with the class and the encounter. Many fresh 80's will look to fractals as a starting point to endgame content and starting fracs as a power reaper is already dicey (given that they played through enough HoT to unlock reaper) as it's an undesired class for that content.

  • @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Funky.4861 said:
    The comparison with berserker stance is spot-on; i don't imagine many warriors would be happy if they couldn't be healed during zerk stance and had to make the same choice.

    Warriors in zerker stance also don't get a second lifebar. I'm sure they would love that too.

    Wow, and another one that wants to keep the stigma alive ... Reaper shroud is NOT a 2nd health bar, unless you're a REALLY bad Reaper player.
    You're DPS is already on the bottom of the list ... and you want to use your biggest burst as a 2nd health bar .... Wow, just wow

    @Funky.4861 said:
    The final component is experience, both with the class and the encounter. Many fresh 80's will look to fractals as a starting point to endgame content and starting fracs as a power reaper is already dicey (given that they played through enough HoT to unlock reaper) as it's an undesired class for that content.

    Power Reaper is probably one of, if not the easiest class to get into fractal content (and by far the most forgiving). The last time Reaper was undesired was over 6 months ago (and even then was fine given the 32k benchmark and its bursty damage). Even CM groups have no issue with it as long as you can put out the required damage (which Reaper can). So I'm not sure what you are talking about.

    I just commented this in another thread as well:
    May I ask how you compared the easiness of playing the reaper in the PvE endgame compared to other classes, have you played all other classes in T4 fractals (and raids) or is it just from hearsay? Cause I have played all of them in raids and T4, and I know words like easy, hard, etc. are subjective terms, but in my experience none in general is really that much easier or harder than the other.
    Because in the end it's all about knowing your encounters: Imo, ANet actually did quite a good job leaving a lot of RNG out of their PvE endgame. So once you're experienced enough in those encounters, you'll figure out that any class is easy enough to get near to its own top-DPS (not the golem benchmarks of course, but what's considered average top-dps per raid/fractal). And once you get to that point, I'm afraid it all boils down to what every class is capped to, and the Necro has for some kind of reason - which I still really don't understand - always (pretty much since launch) been at the bottom of the barrel, with all other classes having at least several different DPS builds (Power AND Condi) available outperforming the Power Reaper's DPS ceiling .... and mostly even bringing more support/utility to the squad/party as well (banners, blocks, stances, etc.), next to their significantly higher (up to 20% more) DPS af course.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 13, 2019

    @Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Funky.4861 said:
    The comparison with berserker stance is spot-on; i don't imagine many warriors would be happy if they couldn't be healed during zerk stance and had to make the same choice.

    Warriors in zerker stance also don't get a second lifebar. I'm sure they would love that too.

    Wow, and another one that wants to keep the stigma alive ... Reaper shroud is NOT a 2nd health bar, unless you're a REALLY bad Reaper player.
    You're DPS is already on the bottom of the list ... and you want to use your biggest burst as a 2nd health bar .... Wow, just wow

    I did mention that for good players this is a non issue right? Reaper shroud IS another health bar for bad players. It's not needed for good players, true. I never stated anything else.

    @Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Funky.4861 said:
    @Funky.4861 said:
    The final component is experience, both with the class and the encounter. Many fresh 80's will look to fractals as a starting point to endgame content and starting fracs as a power reaper is already dicey (given that they played through enough HoT to unlock reaper) as it's an undesired class for that content.

    Power Reaper is probably one of, if not the easiest class to get into fractal content (and by far the most forgiving). The last time Reaper was undesired was over 6 months ago (and even then was fine given the 32k benchmark and its bursty damage). Even CM groups have no issue with it as long as you can put out the required damage (which Reaper can). So I'm not sure what you are talking about.

    I just commented this in another thread as well:
    May I ask how you compared the easiness of playing the reaper in the PvE endgame compared to other classes, have you played all other classes in T4 fractals (and raids) or is it just from hearsay? Cause I have played all of them in raids and T4, and I know words like easy, hard, etc. are subjective terms, but in my experience none in general is really that much easier or harder than the other.
    Because in the end it's all about knowing your encounters: Imo, ANet actually did quite a good job leaving a lot of RNG out of their PvE endgame. So once you're experienced enough in those encounters, you'll figure out that any class is easy enough to get near to its own top-DPS (not the golem benchmarks of course, but what's considered average top-dps per raid/fractal). And once you get to that point, I'm afraid it all boils down to what every class is capped to, and the Necro has for some kind of reason - which I still really don't understand - always (pretty much since launch) been at the bottom of the barrel, with all other classes having at least several different DPS builds (Power AND Condi) available outperforming the Power Reaper's DPS ceiling .... and mostly even bringing more support/utility to the squad/party as well (banners, blocks, stances, etc.), next to their significantly higher (up to 20% more) DPS af course.

    I have played pretty much all classes as dps and/or support (both support and healer if available) in fractals and raids with only exception going to elementalist and engineer. (currently at 1,336 LI and 293 LD and not far off from Fractal God which I would have by now if not for breaks and having 25+ characters full with Fractal bags).

    Necromancer in all its forms is BY FAR the most forgiving class survivability wise in pretty much any content. It performs good enough for good groups and not top 1% groups in pve. I was running my power Reaper for quite a while in fractals before joining a static and had no issue being top dps for normal T4s and being useful and close enough for CMs as to not have issues.

    No, power reaper will not perform easily in the top 1% player bracket. That is absolutely unrelated to its ability to selfheal though. Then again I've seen even better Power Reapers than me (and I would not consider myself very good) be top dps even in PUG fractal CM groups.

  • Funky.4861Funky.4861 Member ✭✭✭

    I see where you're coming from Cyn, but necro has so few damage modifiers through traits that RS isn't to be viewed as a 2nd Hp bar but as their main source of burst damage. A such, with the trait change, you have to be much more aware of ur Hp before hitting shroud and honestly i don't think most reapers are.

  • Nephalem.8921Nephalem.8921 Member ✭✭✭

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Warriors in zerker stance also don't get a second lifebar. I'm sure they would love that too.

    Warrior in zerker have close to a second lifebar with that broken heal.
    Sorry but no. Reaper shroud is needed for dps. Taking a hit while in shroud reduces dps because of lower uptime. Taking a hit before also removes scholar.
    Not entering shroud while you don't have scholar? Just take a huge dps drop.
    Ye good players don't take a hit and don't enter shroud because arena tick damage is dodgeable right? Or mainly because good players aren't playing reapers.
    Nobody took the trait in pvp anyways. I'm pretty sure the change happened because the lore team did balance again like they did it with engi.
    Of course it is still playable but it was a completely unnecessary pve only nerf on the worst pve class.

    Also please stop with this second lifebar nonsense. It NEVER worked in pve. Blocks, dodges and invulns are always better than this tiny lifebar which is needed for damage. Try soloing champs and necro and weaver or fb. Weaver and fb have evades and blocks, necro has to facetank and the whole bar is gone in one hit most of the time.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 13, 2019

    @Funky.4861 said:
    I see where you're coming from Cyn, but necro has so few damage modifiers through traits that RS isn't to be viewed as a 2nd Hp bar but as their main source of burst damage. A such, with the trait change, you have to be much more aware of ur Hp before hitting shroud and honestly i don't think most reapers are.

    Going to quote myself from earlier in this thead since this is a bit of a necro:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    I've been advocating for power reaper for a while now and was a fan of power reaper even before the last patch when a lot of necromancer "main" players were still whinning about how useless the class is.

    The issue with necromancer is, its class mechanic makes it to tanky (which combined with some other necromancer strengths like boon corrupts make it god tier in WvW ever since vanilla). I do not like the interaction of shroud and the necromancer not getting healed, but the fact you can brain afk into just about any damage currently and still survive where other dps players would have been toast is just overkill. For anyone doubting this, maybe give elementalist a go in the current fractal meta and have fun on Sirens Reef with frailty and outflanked. (July 16th, 2019)

    Moving along to:

    @Nephalem.8921 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Warriors in zerker stance also don't get a second lifebar. I'm sure they would love that too.

    Warrior in zerker have close to a second lifebar with that broken heal.
    Sorry but no. Reaper shroud is needed for dps. Taking a hit while in shroud reduces dps because of lower uptime. Taking a hit before also removes scholar.

    It is a second life bar for bad players. Good players have no issue with it and don't need the heal in shroud in pve. Can people please decide on which player group they are talking about since this back and forth is very taxing.

    Yes, in the top 1% power reaper falls off. I've never denied that. No, the class remains the easiest to survive on for inexperienced players. No, the selfheal in shroud is not needed and was more than overpowered in pve. I was seeing Power Reapers left and right just selfsustain while pushing decent enough damage. There was no trade-off whatsoever. I was one of them, shroud on and just jump into any pack and spin to win.

    If you want a high damage necromencer build for the top 1%, have a new elite specialization added which completely removes necromancers passive defences. Then we can talk. Comparing power reaper to firebrand which is also completely batshit bonkers overpowered right now is no argument (and I love my FB but man is this class op right now. Guardian in general, but let's not derail this thread).

  • Sigmoid.7082Sigmoid.7082 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Funky.4861 said:
    The difference between 89% hp and 90% hp with scholar runes is a 10% damage buff- if you use your class mechanic for a dps burst at 89% hp and can't be healed then your burst is nerfed.

    Its not as significant since the rune change. Scholar is only 5% over 90% hp the rest is bonus ferocity.

  • Funky.4861Funky.4861 Member ✭✭✭

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @Funky.4861 said:
    The difference between 89% hp and 90% hp with scholar runes is a 10% damage buff- if you use your class mechanic for a dps burst at 89% hp and can't be healed then your burst is nerfed.

    Its not as significant since the rune change. Scholar is only 5% over 90% hp the rest is bonus ferocity.

    Tx for the catch sigmoid; i forgot abt the rune change, doh!

  • Sigmoid.7082Sigmoid.7082 Member ✭✭✭✭

    On topic though I wonder how people played reaper before the trait? They the mindset the trait brings of "its ok I will just heal in shroud". People would actively make sure their HP was where it needed to be.

    Sometimes I feel the trait provided a crutch to allow people to be worse at the game. I also feel a lot of the people who complain are people who wouldn't have been benefiting from the bonus all that much to begin with before the patch.

  • @Sigmoid.7082 said:
    On topic though I wonder how people played reaper before the trait?

    Hah, easy answer: NOT, at least not in the PvE endgame, call me crazy, but I just want to be useful to my team/squad!

    Nah, all craziness aside, they're absolutely viable, but that's not because of the shroud heals though, it's because they finally dis out at least SOME DPS (benchmarking 31k now), but still not enough compared to the other classes which all have at least 2 DPS builds benchmarking higher than the Power Reaper, and again the difference is not just a few percent, but quite a lot (up to 20%). The Necro (as a whole) just needs some damage buffs, which ANet was steadily doing lately, except for this last update. But I have faith, I still have faith :). And sure if they buff the Necro's dps, a different class will be bottom of the pack, but it's about time someone else took over that hated spot, The Necro has pretty much been there since launch now!

  • Nephalem.8921Nephalem.8921 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 14, 2019

    Tbh they should just bring fb, weaver and mirage down instead of buffing reaper into that range. Fb is just completely crazy now. Golem bench is just 36k but the f1 resets in some fights bringing it into the 40k range. It has also very short duration condis mostly, means that it can be played on quite a lot of bosses.
    The class stacking will be quite funny in next erp. Most likely no engi will be used at all and maybe a scourge on desmina.
    Maybe a scourge for dhuum cm. It's just funny that pure dps specs like reaper and holo are behind support ones like Firebrand or even banner warrior.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Warriors in zerker stance also don't get a second lifebar. I'm sure they would love that too.

    Definitely not if the sideeffect was their dps dropping to reaper levels. Besides, berserkers are already almost as tanky as necros even without that second life bar. More tanky, even, if in a group with good healer

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • @Nephalem.8921 said:
    Tbh they should just bring fb, weaver and mirage down instead of buffing reaper into that range. Fb is just completely crazy now. Golem bench is just 36k but the f1 resets in some fights bringing it into the 40k range. It has also very short duration condis mostly, means that it can be played on quite a lot of bosses.
    The class stacking will be quite funny in next erp. Most likely no engi will be used at all and maybe a scourge on desmina.
    Maybe a scourge for dhuum cm. It's just funny that pure dps specs like reaper and holo are behind support ones like Firebrand or even banner warrior.

    Ah, I almost thought you'd forgot the banner warrior (Berserker), but there it is: 2 builds, both power and condi, outdps-ing the Reaper AND bringing banners. It's absolutely crazy.
    Btw, try it, it's fun to play, if you really want to talk about forgiving builds (@Cyninja.2954) ...

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 14, 2019

    @Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:

    @Nephalem.8921 said:
    Tbh they should just bring fb, weaver and mirage down instead of buffing reaper into that range. Fb is just completely crazy now. Golem bench is just 36k but the f1 resets in some fights bringing it into the 40k range. It has also very short duration condis mostly, means that it can be played on quite a lot of bosses.
    The class stacking will be quite funny in next erp. Most likely no engi will be used at all and maybe a scourge on desmina.
    Maybe a scourge for dhuum cm. It's just funny that pure dps specs like reaper and holo are behind support ones like Firebrand or even banner warrior.

    Ah, I almost thought you'd forgot the banner warrior (Berserker), but there it is: 2 builds, both power and condi, outdps-ing the Reaper AND bringing banners. It's absolutely crazy.
    Btw, try it, it's fun to play, if you really want to talk about forgiving builds (@Cyninja.2954) ...

    Condi Firebrand is no support spec and I have already conceded that FB, in almost all its builds, is overpowered.

    Bannerberserker does not perform similar to benchmark in actual fights, not even close. Mostly since picking up and placing banners cuts into their damage significantly. Which you would know if you actually played the class in content.

    As to playing them, I do.

  • Agrippa Oculus.3726Agrippa Oculus.3726 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 14, 2019

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:

    @Nephalem.8921 said:
    Tbh they should just bring fb, weaver and mirage down instead of buffing reaper into that range. Fb is just completely crazy now. Golem bench is just 36k but the f1 resets in some fights bringing it into the 40k range. It has also very short duration condis mostly, means that it can be played on quite a lot of bosses.
    The class stacking will be quite funny in next erp. Most likely no engi will be used at all and maybe a scourge on desmina.
    Maybe a scourge for dhuum cm. It's just funny that pure dps specs like reaper and holo are behind support ones like Firebrand or even banner warrior.

    Ah, I almost thought you'd forgot the banner warrior (Berserker), but there it is: 2 builds, both power and condi, outdps-ing the Reaper AND bringing banners. It's absolutely crazy.
    Btw, try it, it's fun to play, if you really want to talk about forgiving builds (@Cyninja.2954) ...

    Condi Firebrand is no support spec and I have already conceded that FB, in almost all its builds, is overpowered.

    Bannerberserker does not perform similar to benchmark in actual fights, not even close. Mostly since picking up and placing banners cuts into their damage significantly. Which you would know if you actually played the class in content.

    As to playing them, I do.

    Nothing comes close to Golem benchmarks ... but they (banner warriors) do come up with pretty sweet numbers (better than Reaper when played right), including picking up and putting down banners (in Fractals mostly only ones before boss fight, btw). But you know, because you play it!

  • Nephalem.8921Nephalem.8921 Member ✭✭✭

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Bannerberserker does not perform similar to benchmark in actual fights, not even close. Mostly since picking up and placing banners cuts into their damage significantly. Which you would know if you actually played the class in content.

    Banner bs can be among the top dps in a lot of fights now if there is no broken spec like mirage present. Even in selling guilds and their dps should know how to play.
    At least warrior has strong dps builds now. Holo needs to use exploits to make it less clunky and reaper is just a meme, used to make fun of bad dps players.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 14, 2019

    @Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:

    @Nephalem.8921 said:
    Tbh they should just bring fb, weaver and mirage down instead of buffing reaper into that range. Fb is just completely crazy now. Golem bench is just 36k but the f1 resets in some fights bringing it into the 40k range. It has also very short duration condis mostly, means that it can be played on quite a lot of bosses.
    The class stacking will be quite funny in next erp. Most likely no engi will be used at all and maybe a scourge on desmina.
    Maybe a scourge for dhuum cm. It's just funny that pure dps specs like reaper and holo are behind support ones like Firebrand or even banner warrior.

    Ah, I almost thought you'd forgot the banner warrior (Berserker), but there it is: 2 builds, both power and condi, outdps-ing the Reaper AND bringing banners. It's absolutely crazy.
    Btw, try it, it's fun to play, if you really want to talk about forgiving builds (@Cyninja.2954) ...

    Condi Firebrand is no support spec and I have already conceded that FB, in almost all its builds, is overpowered.

    Bannerberserker does not perform similar to benchmark in actual fights, not even close. Mostly since picking up and placing banners cuts into their damage significantly. Which you would know if you actually played the class in content.

    As to playing them, I do.

    Nothing comes close to Golem benchmarks ... but they (banner warriors) do come up with pretty sweet numbers (better than Reaper when played right), including picking up and putting down banners (in Fractals mostly only ones before boss fight, btw). But you know, because you play it!

    Except that no other build does its benchmarks with 2 skills present which do not get pressed which require interaction IN actual fights. So yes, no build comes close to benchmarks but bannerberserker actually has to use those banners repeatedly during a fight, unlike his benchmark where they are simply slotted. Less relevant for fractals since fights end in 5 - 10 seconds, which would also make most complaints about reaper shroud and the lack of healing irrelevant. More relevant for raids where fights are longer and a lot more movement happens.

    Yes, because I play it...

    @Nephalem.8921 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Bannerberserker does not perform similar to benchmark in actual fights, not even close. Mostly since picking up and placing banners cuts into their damage significantly. Which you would know if you actually played the class in content.

    Banner bs can be among the top dps in a lot of fights now if there is no broken spec like mirage present. Even in selling guilds and their dps should know how to play.
    At least warrior has strong dps builds now. Holo needs to use exploits to make it less clunky and reaper is just a meme, used to make fun of bad dps players.

    Are you talking about damage berserker or bannerberserker? Because there is a vast difference in performance between both.

    Yes on the damage berserker performance. You are definately not in the top 1% if you are being outperformed by a banner warrior (on either build).

    Unless you too are only referring to fractals only, where the burst is all that matters. Again, less relevant for fractals and way more relevant for raids.

  • Nephalem.8921Nephalem.8921 Member ✭✭✭

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    Are you talking about damage berserker or bannerberserker? Because there is a vast difference in performance between both.

    Yes banner berserker. It has crazy dps as long as berserker is active. Dps build uses utilities to extend the duration which is not always needed if boss has phases.
    Not even 100% sure if peak performance is that big of a buff since triggering it costs time you could spend on doing another f1 burst. The difference is very small if phases are short enough which is always happening in a good group.
    Banner bs is just a full dps at this point. I'm ok with it since it keeps them alive in fractals even with nerfed banners, don't want to go to dh stack meta there.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Nephalem.8921 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    Are you talking about damage berserker or bannerberserker? Because there is a vast difference in performance between both.

    Yes banner berserker. It has crazy dps as long as berserker is active. Dps build uses utilities to extend the duration which is not always needed if boss has phases.
    Not even 100% sure if peak performance is that big of a buff since triggering it costs time you could spend on doing another f1 burst. The difference is very small if phases are short enough which is always happening in a good group.
    Banner bs is just a full dps at this point. I'm ok with it since it keeps them alive in fractals even with nerfed banners, don't want to go to dh stack meta there.

    Valid for fractals and some raid fights (like KC) if phased fast and for top performance groups. Which brings me back to: yes, Power Reaper drops off at the top end. Not valid for anything else which is the norm for 90% of the playerbase and many other raid fights.

    We could also get into how insane Warrior dps is with somewhat simplistic rotations (both banner builds and regular damage builds), still dedicated dps will perform better even if not all classes have such a burst potential.

    This isn't anymore about Power Reaper damage or self healing though. This is purely about burst damage. Where Power Reaper is sort of mid- to backfield given the insane burst DH, Berserker, Tempest/Weaver and Soulbeast have.

  • Agrippa Oculus.3726Agrippa Oculus.3726 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 14, 2019

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Nephalem.8921 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    Are you talking about damage berserker or bannerberserker? Because there is a vast difference in performance between both.

    Yes banner berserker. It has crazy dps as long as berserker is active. Dps build uses utilities to extend the duration which is not always needed if boss has phases.
    Not even 100% sure if peak performance is that big of a buff since triggering it costs time you could spend on doing another f1 burst. The difference is very small if phases are short enough which is always happening in a good group.
    Banner bs is just a full dps at this point. I'm ok with it since it keeps them alive in fractals even with nerfed banners, don't want to go to dh stack meta there.

    Valid for fractals and some raid fights (like KC) if phased fast and for top performance groups. Which brings me back to: yes, Power Reaper drops off at the top end. Not valid for anything else which is the norm for 90% of the playerbase and many other raid fights.

    So, valid for all fractals and any raid bosses that phases, really (which is quite a big part of the full PvE endgame)! And I disagree that you have to be top performance to push higher numbers with banner berserker than you would with power reaper, cause that same power reaper can be played poorly as well: enough 2nd lifebar examples out there, which makes your DPS plummet far more than poor banner placement timing would! (do compare apples with apples please).

    This isn't anymore about Power Reaper damage or self healing though. This is purely about burst damage. Where Power Reaper is sort of mid- to backfield given the insane burst DH, Berserker, Tempest/Weaver and Soulbeast have.

    I agree, we did stray a lot from OP's topic, here. I actually even don't want shroud healing back (don't need it), I just want more competitive DPS, either for the power Reaper/Necro or even better (which in its essence is ridiculous that the Necro doesnt have one) for a condi Necro. Since the latest patches, introduced quite a few viable and even optimal condi options for ALL classes (next to the existing ones like Mirage, Ren, etc.), except again for that one class: Necro! Which, btw, thematically you (or at least I) would least expect it from! Whole different discussion, though (involving Epi, I know)!

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:
    I just want more competitive DPS, either for the power Reaper/Necro or even better (which in its essence is ridiculous that the Necro doesnt have one) for a condi Necro.

    That I agree with, I simply don't think it will be realized with the base design of necromancer. Then again, if things like current FB get to exist, who knows.

    Overall necro takes probably my 4th-5th spot as played class fun wise (first goes to guardian currently, mesmer second simply because she is my main even if I don't enjoy her that much, Renegade as third due to its support nature and warrior tied for 4th with necro, mostly for the WvW I play him in).

    As far as epi, I stand by this skill being the single highest damage skill in this game if utilized properly. I love the skill, but I would not be surpirsed if it is the sole reason why condi builds on necromancer are being balanced very conservative.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 14, 2019

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    As far as epi, I stand by this skill being the single highest damage skill in this game if utilized properly.

    Except unlike the other high damage skills, that one does exactly zero damage on its own. It is a damage multiplier, not damage creator - it requires other skills to work. You cannot spread condis if there are no condis, and epi doesn't apply any condis on its own. Which is why comparing it to other damage skills is very misleading.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 14, 2019

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    As far as epi, I stand by this skill being the single highest damage skill in this game if utilized properly.

    Except unlike the other high damage skills, that one does exactly zero damage on its own. It is a damage multiplier, not damage creator - it requires other skills to work. You cannot spread condis if there are no condis, and epi doesn't apply any condis on its own. Which is why comparing it to other damage skills is very misleading.

    True, but that is not really of significance because the net result matters.

    The result is that 1 utility skill applies up to 25 stacks, burning, poison, confusion, torment and bleeding as well as all the control conditions on to up to 5 targets. That is still insane even at reduced duration.

    The setup for this is also not that difficult. It requires 1 additional target to bounce off and condition builds. Given how most condition builds reach 20-25 stacks of their main conditions, even that limitation is easily surpassed in todays class landscape.

    You are correct though, it is misleading to compare it to basically anything in this game, because there is nothing like this skill.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 14, 2019

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    As far as epi, I stand by this skill being the single highest damage skill in this game if utilized properly.

    Except unlike the other high damage skills, that one does exactly zero damage on its own. It is a damage multiplier, not damage creator - it requires other skills to work. You cannot spread condis if there are no condis, and epi doesn't apply any condis on its own. Which is why comparing it to other damage skills is very misleading.

    True, but that is not really of significance because the net result matters.

    The result is that 1 utility skill applies up to 25 stacks, burning, poison, confusion, torment and bleeding as well as all the control conditions on to up to 5 targets. That is still insane even at reduced duration.

    Except again, it does not. It requires source of those conditions first. Because Epi doesn't create condis when there are none to copy.

    The setup for this is also not that difficult. It requires 1 additional target to bounce off and condition builds. Given how most condition builds reach 20-25 stacks of their main conditions, even that limitation is easily surpassed in todays class landscape.

    "that skill does extremely high damage, and all it requires is at least two players to use it, and several condi builds to create the damage you are going to bounce first"
    That damage is not a result of one skill. It is a result of a tight coordination of several players working as a team. A single condition build with single epi doesn't come anywhere close to what you describe. A non-condition build with epi and no other condi builds around deals even less.
    No, it's not a single skill. It is a whole multi-player, multi-skill well-coordinated dps combo. Trying to attribute all that effort to single skill is disingenious.

    You are correct though, it is misleading to compare it to basically anything in this game, because there is nothing like this skill.

    Technically, Wall of Reflection/Feedback in right situation can deal way more damage than any Epi.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

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