Yet another Death Magic idea — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Yet another Death Magic idea

Anchoku.8142Anchoku.8142 Member ✭✭✭✭
edited July 15, 2019 in Necromancer

Soul Comprehension: When Life Force is 50% or greater, F1 will consume 50% of LF and provide 3 stacks of stability for 1 seconds and 1500 toughness for 2 seconds.

This is just a simple concept to enable some aggro control and tanking ability to Death Magic. The trait line will still be an abysmal dps loss for all but MM builds and, of course it will mess with minion aggro control but it is a start.

LF generation will become critical for a Necro-tank so dps takes a back seat, as it should when tanking.

ps, Shroud flashing comes back with a purpose.

Comments

  • Nimon.7840Nimon.7840 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 16, 2019

    Make one trait:
    If your lifeforce is full, and you'd get lifeforce, get half of the amount of lifeforce as barrier. (Maybe add a limitation like: maximum barrier amount per lifeforce source: 2000).
    And only lifeforce generated by skills, not by nearby deaths

  • Methuselah.4376Methuselah.4376 Member ✭✭✭

    That's an awful idea. You would remove half of a necro's defensive and offensive ability for a measly 3 stacks of stab for 1 second (which Reaper can do better) and 1500 for only 2 seconds? Life force management would be a nightmare, especially in PvP where it can already be.

  • derd.6413derd.6413 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Nimon.7840 said:
    Make one trait:
    If your lifeforce is full, and you'd get lifeforce, get half of the amount of lifeforce as barrier. (Maybe add a limitation like: maximum barrier amount per lifeforce source: 2000).
    And only lifeforce generated by skills, not by nearby deaths

    that would just promote necro's not using their shroud skills which wouldn't be ideal

    I Have No friends, so I Must pug

  • Nimon.7840Nimon.7840 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @derd.6413 said:

    @Nimon.7840 said:
    Make one trait:
    If your lifeforce is full, and you'd get lifeforce, get half of the amount of lifeforce as barrier. (Maybe add a limitation like: maximum barrier amount per lifeforce source: 2000).
    And only lifeforce generated by skills, not by nearby deaths

    that would just promote necro's not using their shroud skills which wouldn't be ideal

    I don't think so. It would make necro out of shroud a bit tankier, and would allow to use shroud for offens. Also it would be a trait. You don't have to take such a trait

  • derd.6413derd.6413 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Nimon.7840 said:

    @derd.6413 said:

    @Nimon.7840 said:
    Make one trait:
    If your lifeforce is full, and you'd get lifeforce, get half of the amount of lifeforce as barrier. (Maybe add a limitation like: maximum barrier amount per lifeforce source: 2000).
    And only lifeforce generated by skills, not by nearby deaths

    that would just promote necro's not using their shroud skills which wouldn't be ideal

    I don't think so. It would make necro out of shroud a bit tankier, and would allow to use shroud for offens. Also it would be a trait. You don't have to take such a trait

    no, the trait punishes you for using shroud because you require full shroud to gain it's benefits which means you loose it's benefits the second you use shroud and it takes longer to get it back the longer use shroud

    I Have No friends, so I Must pug

  • Nimon.7840Nimon.7840 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @derd.6413 said:

    @Nimon.7840 said:

    @derd.6413 said:

    @Nimon.7840 said:
    Make one trait:
    If your lifeforce is full, and you'd get lifeforce, get half of the amount of lifeforce as barrier. (Maybe add a limitation like: maximum barrier amount per lifeforce source: 2000).
    And only lifeforce generated by skills, not by nearby deaths

    that would just promote necro's not using their shroud skills which wouldn't be ideal

    I don't think so. It would make necro out of shroud a bit tankier, and would allow to use shroud for offens. Also it would be a trait. You don't have to take such a trait

    no, the trait punishes you for using shroud because you require full shroud to gain it's benefits which means you loose it's benefits the second you use shroud and it takes longer to get it back the longer use shroud

    You'd still have to go in shroud as it's the best dmg ability necro has! It doesn't punish you, you choose going from being defensive to being offensive.
    You can't kill good players without shroud, if you can kill them at all.
    Also it would make necro a bit more complex and fun to play. >It gets more interesting for decision-making

    Yes it wouldn't be a super duper op trait. But in my opinion, it would be a good trait, that could also make necros to be tanks in pve- endgame

  • derd.6413derd.6413 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 16, 2019

    @Nimon.7840 said:

    @derd.6413 said:

    @Nimon.7840 said:

    @derd.6413 said:

    @Nimon.7840 said:
    Make one trait:
    If your lifeforce is full, and you'd get lifeforce, get half of the amount of lifeforce as barrier. (Maybe add a limitation like: maximum barrier amount per lifeforce source: 2000).
    And only lifeforce generated by skills, not by nearby deaths

    that would just promote necro's not using their shroud skills which wouldn't be ideal

    I don't think so. It would make necro out of shroud a bit tankier, and would allow to use shroud for offens. Also it would be a trait. You don't have to take such a trait

    no, the trait punishes you for using shroud because you require full shroud to gain it's benefits which means you loose it's benefits the second you use shroud and it takes longer to get it back the longer use shroud

    You'd still have to go in shroud as it's the best dmg ability necro has! It doesn't punish you, you choose going from being defensive to being offensive.
    You can't kill good players without shroud, if you can kill them at all.
    Also it would make necro a bit more complex and fun to play. >It gets more interesting for decision-making

    Yes it wouldn't be a super duper op trait. But in my opinion, it would be a good trait, that could also make necros to be tanks in pve- endgame

    no, it wouldn't, either because the defensive bonus is so bad nobody would take it because you'd lose it when you use shroud which is often so what's the point or it would be so good that ppl won't use their shroud skills so they won't loose the benefits of this trait.

    There's no middle-ground where ppl would take this trait and use their shroud

    I Have No friends, so I Must pug

  • Ya the trait is bad. Based on your wording you would never have access to shroud. Unless the bonus is significant, it would just kill necro. Remember that shroud itself is a form of sustain....in my opinion shroud can be a decent sustain mechanic with enough life force management...that’s why the trait you propose is a net negative.

  • Sarrs.4831Sarrs.4831 Member ✭✭✭

    Why not just change it to "Entering Shroud grants Aegis"

  • ZDragon.3046ZDragon.3046 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 16, 2019

    @Anchoku.8142 said:
    Soul Comprehension: When Life Force is 50% or greater, F1 will consume 50% of LF and provide 3 stacks of stability for 1 seconds and 1500 toughness for 2 seconds.

    This is just a simple concept to enable some aggro control and tanking ability to Death Magic. The trait line will still be an abysmal dps loss for all but MM builds and, of course it will mess with minion aggro control but it is a start.

    LF generation will become critical for a Necro-tank so dps takes a back seat, as it should when tanking.

    ps, Shroud flashing comes back with a purpose.

    Sounds like its only good for scourge to be honest. This idea will not work with reaper and core and will be clunky with them as it will force people who do run death magic to never exceed 50% lf or make them be forced to wait till far above 50% to activate it.

    Remember that shroud is also an offensive tool your idea would not allow people to use its offensive skills (especially with reaper.) to be honest for a minor 1500 toughness is also alot in total the toughness bonuses you would be getting would be far too insane. Im sorry i can agree with this idea. This idea is another example where the risk is not worth the reward based on my experience of playing necro over the past few years.

    A better idea for soul comp would be brining the shroud 30% reduction back. making shroud entry 7 seconds for core and reaper. To be honest death magic seems perfect for the trait and it would make a massive trade off as you have to give up spite, curses, or soul reaping for such a powerful trait that people really really miss having apparently

    Death magic in my opinion would be perfect for at trait like that. With that said other things deathmagic need other fixes too.

  • Lahmia.2193Lahmia.2193 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 17, 2019

    @ZDragon.3046 said:
    A better idea for soul comp would be brining the shroud 30% reduction back. making shroud entry 7 seconds for core and reaper. To be honest death magic seems perfect for the trait and it would make a massive trade off as you have to give up spite, curses, or soul reaping for such a powerful trait that people really really miss having apparently

    Death magic in my opinion would be perfect for at trait like that. With that said other things deathmagic need other fixes too.

    People would probably QQ real hard if they did. Almost like Anet was mocking them by making them take Death Magic for the precious 3s reduction.

    "Surrender and serve me in life, or die and slave for me in death."

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Nimon.7840 said:
    Make one trait:
    If your lifeforce is full, and you'd get lifeforce, get half of the amount of lifeforce as barrier. (Maybe add a limitation like: maximum barrier amount per lifeforce source: 2000).
    And only lifeforce generated by skills, not by nearby deaths

    The idea is sexy but awfuly OP in WvW. I'd rather see:
    First minor:
    Death ritual: Summon a jagged horror when you kill a foe. ICD: 3 seconds.
    Second minor:
    Necromantic corruption: Minions take conditions from you every 10 seconds.
    Third minor:
    Beyond the veil: Grant dark aura instead of protection.
    Major:
    Soul comprehension: whenever you gain LF from nearby death gain a stack of vitality (same stacks as grim reaper's). Max stack: 10. Vitality per stack: 30. Stacks duration: 20s. (Replace Flesh of the master)
    Armored shroud: While in shroud vitality stacks grant you extra toughness. Toughness per stack: 20-30. (replace necromantic corruption)
    Flesh of the master: You share the effect of your stack of vitality with your minions. Gain dark aura when you use a minion's active skill (replace Death nova).
    Putrid defense: take less damage from poison foes. You and your minions leave a poison field when downed.
    Dark defiance: This trait now grant you dark aura when disable (instead of protection) and give 20% damage reduction when under the effect of an aura.

  • Kuulpb.5412Kuulpb.5412 Member ✭✭✭

    @derd.6413 said:

    @Nimon.7840 said:

    @derd.6413 said:

    @Nimon.7840 said:

    @derd.6413 said:

    @Nimon.7840 said:
    Make one trait:
    If your lifeforce is full, and you'd get lifeforce, get half of the amount of lifeforce as barrier. (Maybe add a limitation like: maximum barrier amount per lifeforce source: 2000).
    And only lifeforce generated by skills, not by nearby deaths

    that would just promote necro's not using their shroud skills which wouldn't be ideal

    I don't think so. It would make necro out of shroud a bit tankier, and would allow to use shroud for offens. Also it would be a trait. You don't have to take such a trait

    no, the trait punishes you for using shroud because you require full shroud to gain it's benefits which means you loose it's benefits the second you use shroud and it takes longer to get it back the longer use shroud

    You'd still have to go in shroud as it's the best dmg ability necro has! It doesn't punish you, you choose going from being defensive to being offensive.
    You can't kill good players without shroud, if you can kill them at all.
    Also it would make necro a bit more complex and fun to play. >It gets more interesting for decision-making

    Yes it wouldn't be a super duper op trait. But in my opinion, it would be a good trait, that could also make necros to be tanks in pve- endgame

    no, it wouldn't, either because the defensive bonus is so bad nobody would take it because you'd lose it when you use shroud which is often so what's the point or it would be so good that ppl won't use their shroud skills so they won't loose the benefits of this trait.

    There's no middle-ground where ppl would take this trait and use their shroud

    No-one would use a trait that consumes 50% of a pool that takes ages to fill up for 0 effect

  • Anchoku.8142Anchoku.8142 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 17, 2019

    @Lahmia.2193 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:
    A better idea for soul comp would be brining the shroud 30% reduction back. making shroud entry 7 seconds for core and reaper. To be honest death magic seems perfect for the trait and it would make a massive trade off as you have to give up spite, curses, or soul reaping for such a powerful trait that people really really miss having apparently

    Death magic in my opinion would be perfect for at trait like that. With that said other things deathmagic need other fixes too.

    People would probably QQ real had if they did. Almost like Anet was mocking them by making them take Death Magic for the precious 3s reduction.

    I hate to say it, ZDragon, but I think Lahmia is correct: a shroud CD reduction without a penalty for doing so, besides having to take Death Magic which already has some use in competitive mode, would be controversial.

  • Anchoku.8142Anchoku.8142 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Nimon.7840 said:
    Make one trait:
    If your lifeforce is full, and you'd get lifeforce, get half of the amount of lifeforce as barrier. (Maybe add a limitation like: maximum barrier amount per lifeforce source: 2000).
    And only lifeforce generated by skills, not by nearby deaths

    If, by your explanation, you mean the Necromancer foregoes shroud to continue building LF, which immediately turns into a barrier, that could work, I think. Some details may need tweaking by the dev's but not using shroud and receiving a small barrier upon generating LF would also be useful in tanking. It sounds a lot like a vampiric type of trait where it provides continuous but tiny barriers to mitigate a small fraction of incoming damage when outside of shroud. That way a Necro can avoid shroud for nuisance damage and lessen the chance of being in shroud during a group heal.

    I also wondered if you meant the suggestion to be "in addition to" my opening post. Combined with shroud flashing for high toughness, stab, and aggro control. Rewarding the Necro with continuous tiny barriers after LF is full and not using the 50% LF sacrifice to regain aggro and tank would be a nice way to reward good team play.

    As far as competitive play goes, it might become over powered for Necro's leaving area DOTs all over in WvW so a split would be reasonable.

  • Anchoku.8142Anchoku.8142 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Anchoku.8142 said:
    Soul Comprehension: When Life Force is 50% or greater, F1 will consume 50% of LF and provide 3 stacks of stability for 1 seconds and 1500 toughness for 2 seconds.

    This is just a simple concept to enable some aggro control and tanking ability to Death Magic. The trait line will still be an abysmal dps loss for all but MM builds and, of course it will mess with minion aggro control but it is a start.

    LF generation will become critical for a Necro-tank so dps takes a back seat, as it should when tanking.

    ps, Shroud flashing comes back with a purpose.

    Sounds like its only good for scourge to be honest. This idea will not work with reaper and core and will be clunky with them as it will force people who do run death magic to never exceed 50% lf or make them be forced to wait till far above 50% to activate it.

    Remember that shroud is also an offensive tool your idea would not allow people to use its offensive skills (especially with reaper.) to be honest for a minor 1500 toughness is also alot in total the toughness bonuses you would be getting would be far too insane. Im sorry i can agree with this idea. This idea is another example where the risk is not worth the reward based on my experience of playing necro over the past few years.

    A better idea for soul comp would be brining the shroud 30% reduction back. making shroud entry 7 seconds for core and reaper. To be honest death magic seems perfect for the trait and it would make a massive trade off as you have to give up spite, curses, or soul reaping for such a powerful trait that people really really miss having apparently

    Death magic in my opinion would be perfect for at trait like that. With that said other things deathmagic need other fixes too.

    Actually, I had imagined it being more useful for core Necro. Because of the expected LF cost, dagger / focus and AA for LF generation would be most of the rotation with axe / WH / focus or staff being used when ranged.

    The sole objective of the concept was to provide Necro with high toughness and temporary immunity to CC. It came while considering the Lich elite and former Plague Form. With a trait that gave immunity to CC, if used ahead of time, and temporary, very high toughness, Necro could actually tank in PvE. To do so seemed like it would require a significant sacrifice because, as we all know, Necromancer cannot have nice things. However, consuming a lot of LF to proc such a skill seems reasonable.

    Tanking with such a severe trade in LF would also mean Necro loses a lot of sustain. Not only will it cost a large amount of LF, it will also cause it to be focused, hard. To make it work, Necro would have to flash shroud, build for boon duration and hope for protection, and rely on incoming heals and regeneration. Outgoing damage would be bad while doing this but could be mitigated by traits like Deadly Strength.

    The whole concept is to allow functional tanking (aggro control, anti-CC, and defense) at a cost to dps and a reliance on allies to heal any kitten from missed timing of shroud. Reaper already has limited shroud time so I did not expect it to be used on the power-dps elite. Similarly, Scourge needs to watch LF because of its consumption by Shade mechanics. Core Necro, though, has slow degeneration and low shroud cost while still having access to good LF generation on weapons and utilities like Spectral skills. Consuming a large amount of LF for very high toughness and stability seems reasonable in PvE.

    In PvP, Death Magic would be horrible without a split of some kind but, if the LF cost was lower in competitive modes, it could be like FitG without the stun break. At the same time, both elite specializations would become starved for LF so the Death Magic trait resulting in a constant scramble to generate more LF.

  • Anchoku.8142Anchoku.8142 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sarrs.4831 said:
    Why not just change it to "Entering Shroud grants Aegis"

    Aegis does not do much, if anything, for aggro control. The idea was to do something to give Death Magic value in PvE outside of MM. Aegis can also be corrupted, though the corruption is less joyful than stability being corrupted but there are 3 stacks of stab in my suggestion so one corrupted stability would result in a single stack of stab left.

  • Anchoku.8142Anchoku.8142 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    @Nimon.7840 said:
    Make one trait:
    If your lifeforce is full, and you'd get lifeforce, get half of the amount of lifeforce as barrier. (Maybe add a limitation like: maximum barrier amount per lifeforce source: 2000).
    And only lifeforce generated by skills, not by nearby deaths

    The idea is sexy but awfuly OP in WvW. I'd rather see:
    First minor:
    Death ritual: Summon a jagged horror when you kill a foe. ICD: 3 seconds.
    Second minor:
    Necromantic corruption: Minions take conditions from you every 10 seconds.
    Third minor:
    Beyond the veil: Grant dark aura instead of protection.
    Major:
    Soul comprehension: whenever you gain LF from nearby death gain a stack of vitality (same stacks as grim reaper's). Max stack: 10. Vitality per stack: 30. Stacks duration: 20s. (Replace Flesh of the master)
    Armored shroud: While in shroud vitality stacks grant you extra toughness. Toughness per stack: 20-30. (replace necromantic corruption)
    Flesh of the master: You share the effect of your stack of vitality with your minions. Gain dark aura when you use a minion's active skill (replace Death nova).
    Putrid defense: take less damage from poison foes. You and your minions leave a poison field when downed.
    Dark defiance: This trait now grant you dark aura when disable (instead of protection) and give 20% damage reduction when under the effect of an aura.

    Your suggestions seem reasonable and I like the idea of rolling minion traits into minor trait slots.

  • derd.6413derd.6413 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 17, 2019

    @Kuulpb.5412 said:

    @derd.6413 said:

    @Nimon.7840 said:

    @derd.6413 said:

    @Nimon.7840 said:

    @derd.6413 said:

    @Nimon.7840 said:
    Make one trait:
    If your lifeforce is full, and you'd get lifeforce, get half of the amount of lifeforce as barrier. (Maybe add a limitation like: maximum barrier amount per lifeforce source: 2000).
    And only lifeforce generated by skills, not by nearby deaths

    that would just promote necro's not using their shroud skills which wouldn't be ideal

    I don't think so. It would make necro out of shroud a bit tankier, and would allow to use shroud for offens. Also it would be a trait. You don't have to take such a trait

    no, the trait punishes you for using shroud because you require full shroud to gain it's benefits which means you loose it's benefits the second you use shroud and it takes longer to get it back the longer use shroud

    You'd still have to go in shroud as it's the best dmg ability necro has! It doesn't punish you, you choose going from being defensive to being offensive.
    You can't kill good players without shroud, if you can kill them at all.
    Also it would make necro a bit more complex and fun to play. >It gets more interesting for decision-making

    Yes it wouldn't be a super duper op trait. But in my opinion, it would be a good trait, that could also make necros to be tanks in pve- endgame

    no, it wouldn't, either because the defensive bonus is so bad nobody would take it because you'd lose it when you use shroud which is often so what's the point or it would be so good that ppl won't use their shroud skills so they won't loose the benefits of this trait.

    There's no middle-ground where ppl would take this trait and use their shroud

    No-one would use a trait that consumes 50% of a pool that takes ages to fill up for 0 effect

    i was discussing this trait:

    Make one trait:
    If your lifeforce is full, and you'd get lifeforce, get half of the amount of lifeforce as barrier. (Maybe add a limitation like: maximum barrier amount per lifeforce source: 2000).
    And only lifeforce generated by skills, not by nearby deaths

    not OPs suggestion

    I Have No friends, so I Must pug

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Anchoku.8142 said:

    @Dadnir.5038 said:
    The idea is sexy but awfuly OP in WvW. I'd rather see:
    First minor:
    Death ritual: Summon a jagged horror when you kill a foe. ICD: 3 seconds.
    Second minor:
    Necromantic corruption: Minions take conditions from you every 10 seconds.
    Third minor:
    Beyond the veil: Grant dark aura instead of protection.
    Major:
    Soul comprehension: whenever you gain LF from nearby death gain a stack of vitality (same stacks as grim reaper's). Max stack: 10. Vitality per stack: 30. Stacks duration: 20s. (Replace Flesh of the master)
    Armored shroud: While in shroud vitality stacks grant you extra toughness. Toughness per stack: 20-30. (replace necromantic corruption)
    Flesh of the master: You share the effect of your stack of vitality with your minions. Gain dark aura when you use a minion's active skill (replace Death nova).
    Putrid defense: take less damage from poison foes. You and your minions leave a poison field when downed.
    Dark defiance: This trait now grant you dark aura when disable (instead of protection) and give 20% damage reduction when under the effect of an aura.

    Your suggestions seem reasonable and I like the idea of rolling minion traits into minor trait slots.

    Well at the end of the day the real issue of DM is that there are to many minion's major traits. If ANet really want the mechanism to be dominant they have to roll minions into the minors instead of the majors. The only reason I can see for them to not do it is that there is a need for a trait that spawn criter and they cling to death nova to do this job.

    All in all, the current Flesh of the master isn't a well designed trait, in a way it even clash with death nova purpose. Necromantic corruption is nice but there is no real purpose to the minion's damage increase, Anet could make these damages baseline and we wouldn't even see the difference granted how low minion's damage already are. As for death nova, it's mainly a flavor trait, it's not really worth a grandmaster spot. The worst point is that none of those trait make using minion's skill and minion's active skills truly appaeling. You're more drawn to this traits and minions skills because leading an army of minions is a necromancer's fantasy.

  • Anchoku.8142Anchoku.8142 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    @Anchoku.8142 said:

    @Dadnir.5038 said:
    The idea is sexy but awfuly OP in WvW. I'd rather see:
    First minor:
    Death ritual: Summon a jagged horror when you kill a foe. ICD: 3 seconds.
    Second minor:
    Necromantic corruption: Minions take conditions from you every 10 seconds.
    Third minor:
    Beyond the veil: Grant dark aura instead of protection.
    Major:
    Soul comprehension: whenever you gain LF from nearby death gain a stack of vitality (same stacks as grim reaper's). Max stack: 10. Vitality per stack: 30. Stacks duration: 20s. (Replace Flesh of the master)
    Armored shroud: While in shroud vitality stacks grant you extra toughness. Toughness per stack: 20-30. (replace necromantic corruption)
    Flesh of the master: You share the effect of your stack of vitality with your minions. Gain dark aura when you use a minion's active skill (replace Death nova).
    Putrid defense: take less damage from poison foes. You and your minions leave a poison field when downed.
    Dark defiance: This trait now grant you dark aura when disable (instead of protection) and give 20% damage reduction when under the effect of an aura.

    Your suggestions seem reasonable and I like the idea of rolling minion traits into minor trait slots.

    Well at the end of the day the real issue of DM is that there are to many minion's major traits. If ANet really want the mechanism to be dominant they have to roll minions into the minors instead of the majors. The only reason I can see for them to not do it is that there is a need for a trait that spawn criter and they cling to death nova to do this job.

    All in all, the current Flesh of the master isn't a well designed trait, in a way it even clash with death nova purpose. Necromantic corruption is nice but there is no real purpose to the minion's damage increase, Anet could make these damages baseline and we wouldn't even see the difference granted how low minion's damage already are. As for death nova, it's mainly a flavor trait, it's not really worth a grandmaster spot. The worst point is that none of those trait make using minion's skill and minion's active skills truly appaeling. You're more drawn to this traits and minions skills because leading an army of minions is a necromancer's fantasy.

    While I doubt the developers mean for DM to only be used for minions, I agree with you.

    FotM runs cross purpose with DN and actually steals aggro from minions with its stacking toughness. I normally do not run FotM and DN at the same time. If only minion death could be better controlled for DN.

  • ZDragon.3046ZDragon.3046 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Lahmia.2193 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:
    A better idea for soul comp would be brining the shroud 30% reduction back. making shroud entry 7 seconds for core and reaper. To be honest death magic seems perfect for the trait and it would make a massive trade off as you have to give up spite, curses, or soul reaping for such a powerful trait that people really really miss having apparently

    Death magic in my opinion would be perfect for at trait like that. With that said other things deathmagic need other fixes too.

    People would probably QQ real had if they did. Almost like Anet was mocking them by making them take Death Magic for the precious 3s reduction.

    to be honest that would be the better place to put it the main quality of having shroud entry up more often is that its less of a vunerabile time for the necormancer to be exposed without it. This makes it increase sustain through not only being able to activate it more often but also proc other shroud traits more often. Death magic is a self sustain line with shroud traits that actually prove it as such....
    People only want it back in soul reaping so they dont have to make a trade for it. But realisticly its not going to come back there nor does it really need to.
    The way i see it is that it comes back in 1 of 2 ways. IT comes as a base feature to reaper shroud only as reaper shroud has a higher life force cost and may want to be dived into more often when under assult from melee attackers. or it comes back as a trait in death magic provide the rest of death magic gets a rework too.

  • ZDragon.3046ZDragon.3046 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Anchoku.8142 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Anchoku.8142 said:
    Soul Comprehension: When Life Force is 50% or greater, F1 will consume 50% of LF and provide 3 stacks of stability for 1 seconds and 1500 toughness for 2 seconds.

    This is just a simple concept to enable some aggro control and tanking ability to Death Magic. The trait line will still be an abysmal dps loss for all but MM builds and, of course it will mess with minion aggro control but it is a start.

    LF generation will become critical for a Necro-tank so dps takes a back seat, as it should when tanking.

    ps, Shroud flashing comes back with a purpose.

    Sounds like its only good for scourge to be honest. This idea will not work with reaper and core and will be clunky with them as it will force people who do run death magic to never exceed 50% lf or make them be forced to wait till far above 50% to activate it.

    Remember that shroud is also an offensive tool your idea would not allow people to use its offensive skills (especially with reaper.) to be honest for a minor 1500 toughness is also alot in total the toughness bonuses you would be getting would be far too insane. Im sorry i can agree with this idea. This idea is another example where the risk is not worth the reward based on my experience of playing necro over the past few years.

    A better idea for soul comp would be brining the shroud 30% reduction back. making shroud entry 7 seconds for core and reaper. To be honest death magic seems perfect for the trait and it would make a massive trade off as you have to give up spite, curses, or soul reaping for such a powerful trait that people really really miss having apparently

    Death magic in my opinion would be perfect for at trait like that. With that said other things deathmagic need other fixes too.

    Actually, I had imagined it being more useful for core Necro. Because of the expected LF cost, dagger / focus and AA for LF generation would be most of the rotation with axe / WH / focus or staff being used when ranged.

    The sole objective of the concept was to provide Necro with high toughness and temporary immunity to CC. It came while considering the Lich elite and former Plague Form. With a trait that gave immunity to CC, if used ahead of time, and temporary, very high toughness, Necro could actually tank in PvE. To do so seemed like it would require a significant sacrifice because, as we all know, Necromancer cannot have nice things. However, consuming a lot of LF to proc such a skill seems reasonable.

    Well your objective would fail for a few reasons.
    1 high toughness does not matter in this game in pvp right now you can still be 1 shot regardless of how high your toughness is
    2 stab can be corrupted by other necormancers and stripped by a plethra of classes and now you dont have shroud mode either because you burned your bar on a boon that is easily removed.
    3 this makes the traitline unusable for some situations like organized fractals and raids where another person may be the dictated tank. A boost in toughness like that would cause all kinds of problems the moment the user pressed the button.

    Tanking with such a severe trade in LF would also mean Necro loses a lot of sustain. Not only will it cost a large amount of LF, it will also cause it to be focused, hard. To make it work, Necro would have to flash shroud, build for boon duration and hope for protection, and rely on incoming heals and regeneration. Outgoing damage would be bad while doing this but could be mitigated by traits like Deadly Strength.

    The whole concept is to allow functional tanking (aggro control, anti-CC, and defense) at a cost to dps and a reliance on allies to heal any kitten from missed timing of shroud. Reaper already has limited shroud time so I did not expect it to be used on the power-dps elite. Similarly, Scourge needs to watch LF because of its consumption by Shade mechanics. Core Necro, though, has slow degeneration and low shroud cost while still having access to good LF generation on weapons and utilities like Spectral skills. Consuming a large amount of LF for very high toughness and stability seems reasonable in PvE.

    Im sorry to say that necro will never be anti cc. Necromancer is so far behind in the anti cc game that even a trait like this wont prevent them from being knocked around like a pinball when some one wants to knock them around like a pinball. Scourges simply would never use this trait as they already have access to stab via other utilities. Im sorry to say this tait idea is just bad. Having a boon agies block on shroud entry and exit would do much better than your idea to be honest. You said it could be stripped and corrupted to someone else but you think that your stability idea can fall to the same concept and situation with a much more of a risk as you would be feared in the process.

    Sorry to say your trait idea here is just bad. No offensive for coming up with an idea but this is a bad one. Like so many other traits the risk is not worth the reward. On ANY BUILD.

    In PvP, Death Magic would be horrible without a split of some kind but, if the LF cost was lower in competitive modes, it could be like FitG without the stun break. At the same time, both elite specializations would become starved for LF so the Death Magic trait resulting in a constant scramble to generate more LF.

    It wont matter how low you make the cost its simply not worth it if you want stab on f1 or shroud entry just take foot in the grave. ITs free and a break stun has no life force cost. On reaper any life force cost is too high due to how fast life force drains.
    Core is still too weak to compete and adding more toughness wont matter.
    Scourge loses alot to take death magic not to mention most death magic traits dont work very well with scourge let alone any other shroud be it core or reaper...

    Im not trying to be mean but dont be surprised when alot of people axe this idea you have its simply not a good it would be considerably worse for necro as a whole.
    We dont need more traits with more risk than the reward given.

  • ZDragon.3046ZDragon.3046 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    @Nimon.7840 said:
    Make one trait:
    If your lifeforce is full, and you'd get lifeforce, get half of the amount of lifeforce as barrier. (Maybe add a limitation like: maximum barrier amount per lifeforce source: 2000).
    And only lifeforce generated by skills, not by nearby deaths

    The idea is sexy but awfuly OP in WvW. I'd rather see:
    First minor:
    Death ritual: Summon a jagged horror when you kill a foe. ICD: 3 seconds.
    Second minor:
    Necromantic corruption: Minions take conditions from you every 10 seconds.
    Third minor:
    Beyond the veil: Grant dark aura instead of protection.
    Major:
    Soul comprehension: whenever you gain LF from nearby death gain a stack of vitality (same stacks as grim reaper's). Max stack: 10. Vitality per stack: 30. Stacks duration: 20s. (Replace Flesh of the master)
    Armored shroud: While in shroud vitality stacks grant you extra toughness. Toughness per stack: 20-30. (replace necromantic corruption)
    Flesh of the master: You share the effect of your stack of vitality with your minions. Gain dark aura when you use a minion's active skill (replace Death nova).
    Putrid defense: take less damage from poison foes. You and your minions leave a poison field when downed.
    Dark defiance: This trait now grant you dark aura when disable (instead of protection) and give 20% damage reduction when under the effect of an aura.

    You got some cool ideas here as usual although....
    The issue i see is that you have a lot of traits that are too inactive until something dies we should probably try to remove those for something more active.

    Consider use for both pvp, wvw, and pve
    While the idea of kill mobs get vitality and minions, minions die get more vitality is good in pve and maybe wvw however in pvp at the moment this is unusable. You are effectively giving yourself a non existent trait and traits line until the fighting is already over. Ideally the line right now is more active than what it would be with your current vision i would have to say. A lot of the traits also serve 0 purpose in long winded fights where there may be nothing around to die and proc the benefits.

    Ideally while i agree there are too many minion traits and that they should be wrapped up nicely in to possibly 1 grand master trait the a lot of your other traits that would also trigger on death (of a foe) need to be phased out just not good design for the current necormancer that is in gw2.

    I would suggest the following perhaps

    Putrid defense- becomes the first minor
    Simply needs to be take less damage from conditioned foes.
    -2% per unique condition, keeps the death nova/ poison drop on down state and on minion deaths you suggested

    Death Ritual- becomes one of the adept traits
    Summon 3 jagged horrors for 15 seconds every when entering shroud while in combat. The cooldown is limited to the shroud entry mechanic. When managed well you can have 6 for a short time assuming they won get killed right away.

    Shrouded removal- remains an adept
    Now only focuses on damaging conditions and ignores clearing movement impairing conditions.

    Death Trench - new adept
    Gain barrier when exiting shroud. Barrier amount increases based on Dark Specter stacks (get to this in a bit)

    Beyond the veil - becomes the second minor
    Grants Dark Aura when leaving shroud, Dark aura also reduces damage taken by 20%

    Necromantic Corruption- remains a master but is reworked
    Shroud activation cool down is reduced by 3 second for core and reaper

    • With scourge equipped, shroud duration is extended by an additional 2 seconds.

    Dark Defiance - remains a master
    Upon being Disabled gain Dark Aura, Incoming disables are reduced while Dark Aura is active

    Deathly strength - remains a master
    Unchanged

    Dark Specter - becomes the new 3rd minor
    Combines your idea for armored shroud and soul comp into 1 minor trait.
    Gain a stack of "Dark Specter" when entering shroud and an additional stack in shroud every 2 seconds shroud is active for 15 seconds.
    (cap at stacks 5, 30 toughness/ 20Vitality per stack ) in combat only.

    I feel like i should speak on this one for a moment
    While your ideas to have Armored shroud and soul comp be two things was not completely bad one would not work without the other forcing the player to take both to gain the benefit of one or the other.

    Secondly they were part of the issue ive labeled out at the start of this. They would serve 0 purpose until the fighting is done. In extended fights where no adds spawn / die they wont grant any benefit either. So I moved them to something that that revolves around a core part any necromancer build and play style which is the shroud. This not only gives them active use it also allows the necromancer to control said use and manage them from the start of a fight all the way to the end while providing some functionality in and out of shroud which tend to make for the best traits when managed with upkeep it combos much like soul barbs does.

    By combining both and moving them to a minor you get the effect even if you don't commit to a minion build which is still useful to the necromancer. While being a much more active trait in general.

    Flesh of the master - The new minion grand master trait
    Minions move and attack faster for a short time when they take a condition from you, minions take conditions from you every 10 seconds
    Active Minion skills reduced by 10% plus an additional 5% for each stack of Dark Specter applied to you

    Corrupter's Fervor - Remains a grandmaster and is now reworked to modify Dark Specter minor trait
    Reduces the duration of Dark Spector from 15 seconds to 8 seconds
    Increases the maximum stack count of Dark Specter to from 5 to 10
    Stacks of Dark Specter can now also be gained by applying a conditions to a foes in or out of shroud.
    Additionally Dark specter now reduces incoming condition damage by 2%

    Unholy Sanctuary - remains a grand master with new effect
    Its base effects remain unchanged
    This trait heals for 20% more for each stack of Dark Specter applied to you while in shroud. Heal boost only applies to healing gained from this trait

    While thematically the idea of using dead bodies for parts is cool it is also impractical in the combat and current style of guild wars 2 necromancer.
    ESO's Necromancer handled this issue a bit better by having some skills create body piles or soul tokens (which ever you prefer) for other skills to combo with in extended situations where nothing may die for a while or at the start of an encounter. Because the gw2 necromancer lacks these kinds of tools I would not focus on traits that state "When a foe dies" or is reliant on there being "A dead thing" to proc said effect. Because its just not ideal for too many situations but the end of a fight and going into the next fight your "perks" from the previous death have either mostly expired or completely expired.

    If jagged horrors lasted for ever and or we could expect your vitality / toughness stacks to last forever then sure at least that way once you build them up you have them until you die or go down but thats not likely based on how every other skill in necromancer or the game in general functions right now nothing last forever there are always time limits or range limits for things like this. Because of that having them be reliant only on the end of a encounter (say on enemy death) is never going to be truly effective.

  • XECOR.2814XECOR.2814 Member ✭✭✭

    Give up, lets play eso necromancers. There is no love for this concept here.

  • Alchimist.4738Alchimist.4738 Member ✭✭✭

    Death Magic should focus less on toughness, which isn't a particular useful stats for Necromancers, and should focus more on Protection and damage reduction based on your foes conditions. Furthermore it should focus on one of the main weakness of Necromancer, which is its poor anti-crowd control tools, and therefore it should focus on Stability and stun breaks.

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Alchimist.4738 said:
    Death Magic should focus less on toughness, which isn't a particular useful stats for Necromancers

    Well strictly speaking toughness isn't particularly useful for any profession. And ironically, If anything, the necromancers would be the profession that can make the best use out of toughness due to it's large natural health pool.

    The issue is mainly that toughness isn't a great stat in GW2 due to how the game work.

    As for DM itself, it's main issue is that it's heavily focused on minions, otherwise, the traitline is "almost there" at the moment. More protection wouldn't do any good, the amount of protection output of the necromancer is already fine, as for damage reduction based on your foe's condition, it objectively isn't an especially popular option I don't think pushing more toward this kind of effect would do any good to the traitline.

    Ultimately what the traitline really need is to switch the focus from "minions are what make the necromancer's DM specialization strong" to "the DM necromancer is a specialization that make minions/allies strong". Thematically, the traitline is way more fitting to be support oriented than blood magic.

    It always baffled me that a profession that can summon things to do it's biding ended up doing itself the work and having it's summon cheering him up from behind. It's totally anticlimatic and DM traitline just support and enforce this whole idea. That said, the way minions have been implemented is probably the reason behind this fiasco and now it's to late to correct the mess leaving us with a traitline that still try make thing work and minions and their active skills that are hardly worth using in the game.

    I would have loved to have an F2 that can be toggled to periodically spawn jagged horror while in combat at an LF upkeep cost instead of these godforsaken minion skills and death nova traits. Now that scourge is a this ought to be a pipe dream to see this on core.

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