Bad performance with new AMD Ryzen 9 3900x — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Bad performance with new AMD Ryzen 9 3900x

Braile.3894Braile.3894 Member ✭✭
edited July 15, 2019 in Account & Technical Support

Hello, I switched today from my 3 year old intel core I7 6700k to a brand new AMD Ryzen 9 3900x.
My problem is, performance dropped a lot.
In other applications i got performance gains or atleast the performance wasn’t noticeable worse.

Is there any workaround or is there a optimization patch planned?
I tried to assign the cores separately to gw2 but that didn’t help.

<1

Comments

  • Tony.8659Tony.8659 Member ✭✭
    edited July 15, 2019

    I'm going to upgrade my 2700x to a 3900x as soon as I find any in stock. But I totally blame the developers at Arenanet. They refuse to even try to make this game use more than what it seems like 2 cores? I know it's an older game still looks amazing but come on, we have CPU's with 6 - 8 cores out for quite a while and now 12 cores and in Sept the 3950x with 16 cores. They need this game to make use of more then 4 cores. I would like to see it use 6 - 12 cores, if it did I'm sure the game would run so much better. Come on Arenanet, put more effort into giving this a shot, there is a program out there sort of like a hack that uses DX 12: https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/ak0mqs/d912pxy_directx12_for_guild_wars_2/
    But I don't feel like it's stable enough to use plus I use SweetFX to make this game look so much better, and don't want any conflicts with that DX12 program. So sorry Braile this is how it is for now, it's not your CPU it's this game which is unfortunate, and will be unfortunate for me as well when I upgrade. I'm sure Arenanet can do way better than this example video I posted but there is a difference between DX9 vs DX12 performance.
    Example on how DX12 uses more cores:

  • XenoSpyro.1780XenoSpyro.1780 Member ✭✭✭

    Use the Direct3D 12 wrapper suggested above.

  • Hannelore.8153Hannelore.8153 Member ✭✭✭

    DirectX 9 isn't multi-threaded, and ArenaNet can't just magically fix it. They would have to rewrite the game engine itself.

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  • Tony.8659Tony.8659 Member ✭✭

    But Arenanet can invest in the game and try to use a similar approach like the dx12 program I linked. I'm sure they can do a much better job with that. I mean if WoW can do it, I'm sure Arenanet can do something. Example of WoW with DX12: https://www.extremetech.com/gaming/278587-new-world-of-warcraft-optimizations-send-directx-12-performance-soaring

  • Braile.3894Braile.3894 Member ✭✭
    edited July 16, 2019

    GPU and CPU are both used barly.
    I also have discord and chrome with multiple tabs including twitch in the background.
    Why is the Game not using the available resources, i get it it can only handel 4 (?) cores but somehow they are not even used at full potential.

  • TinkTinkPOOF.9201TinkTinkPOOF.9201 Member ✭✭✭

    @Hannelore.8153 said:
    DirectX 9 isn't multi-threaded, and ArenaNet can't just magically fix it. They would have to rewrite the game engine itself.

    No, they wouldn't.

    Direct3D is an API, it's a standard of how the game engine talks the GPU, without it the GPU would not know what to do with the information or calls being made. A game engine covers everything, porting a game over to DX12 does not mean a full engine rewrite. That is not to say it is easy, or just a simple click of a button, but more than doable. However GW2 used DX9 when DX11 had already been out for some time, and DX10 was already end of life, the main reason they stuck with this was xbox of the time used a modified version of DX9, so porting the game over to it would be very simple (read cheap). And even after launch they had plans to release on xbox, they then came to realize that they were never going to get the performance needed to release there, as unlike PC, to release something on xbox means you have to hit given performance metrics with very limited HW, and they are not even willing to put in the time and money to optimize the game for PC with higher end HW no less xbox.

    @Braile.3894 said:

    GPU and CPU are both used barly.
    I also have discord and chrome with multiple tabs including twitch in the background.
    Why is the Game not using the available resources, i get it it can only handel 4 (?) cores but somehow they are not even used at full potential.

    They are used, cores are not threads. A single thread can use up to a full cores clock cycles, however the OS and mobo can move that load around, it does this so a single core doesn't get super hot or taxed, so it spreads it over many physical cores. If only a single core was used until it was 100% and then moved on to the next, those first cores would jump in temp and boost clocks are based on temps, so it would end up reducing the clock speed on that core, actually hurting performance. Some programs can lock them selves to a single physical core, but doing so yourself will not gain you anything unless there are some bugs or very VERY old software.

    Upgrading to the new AMD from a 6700k was, honestly pointless for GW2 and just about any other game, if you wanted higher gains, you should have OCed the 6700k. As the 6700k is about the same single threaded performance as the 3900x, as shown by almost all gaming reviews of the CPU, where it only gains ground in DX12 games over the 6700k, as DX12 can make use of the extra cores.

    With that said, you should not be seeing "performance drop a lot", it should be about the same. Was the 6700k OCed? Are you sure you have all the settings the same? Do you have screens of the fps you were getting on the old PC? If so, have you gone to the same location with the same settings, looking in the same direction and see what your FPS are? What are the temps on your CPU?

    "When you power creep the game and make it so that spam gameplay is nearly as effective as deep knowledge and nuance, the quality of players will decrease." -Exedore

  • Braile.3894Braile.3894 Member ✭✭

    @TinkTinkPOOF.9201 said:

    @Hannelore.8153 said:
    DirectX 9 isn't multi-threaded, and ArenaNet can't just magically fix it. They would have to rewrite the game engine itself.

    No, they wouldn't.

    Direct3D is an API, it's a standard of how the game engine talks the GPU, without it the GPU would not know what to do with the information or calls being made. A game engine covers everything, porting a game over to DX12 does not mean a full engine rewrite. That is not to say it is easy, or just a simple click of a button, but more than doable. However GW2 used DX9 when DX11 had already been out for some time, and DX10 was already end of life, the main reason they stuck with this was xbox of the time used a modified version of DX9, so porting the game over to it would be very simple (read cheap). And even after launch they had plans to release on xbox, they then came to realize that they were never going to get the performance needed to release there, as unlike PC, to release something on xbox means you have to hit given performance metrics with very limited HW, and they are not even willing to put in the time and money to optimize the game for PC with higher end HW no less xbox.

    @Braile.3894 said:

    GPU and CPU are both used barly.
    I also have discord and chrome with multiple tabs including twitch in the background.
    Why is the Game not using the available resources, i get it it can only handel 4 (?) cores but somehow they are not even used at full potential.

    They are used, cores are not threads. A single thread can use up to a full cores clock cycles, however the OS and mobo can move that load around, it does this so a single core doesn't get super hot or taxed, so it spreads it over many physical cores. If only a single core was used until it was 100% and then moved on to the next, those first cores would jump in temp and boost clocks are based on temps, so it would end up reducing the clock speed on that core, actually hurting performance. Some programs can lock them selves to a single physical core, but doing so yourself will not gain you anything unless there are some bugs or very VERY old software.

    Upgrading to the new AMD from a 6700k was, honestly pointless for GW2 and just about any other game, if you wanted higher gains, you should have OCed the 6700k. As the 6700k is about the same single threaded performance as the 3900x, as shown by almost all gaming reviews of the CPU, where it only gains ground in DX12 games over the 6700k, as DX12 can make use of the extra cores.

    With that said, you should not be seeing "performance drop a lot", it should be about the same. Was the 6700k OCed? Are you sure you have all the settings the same? Do you have screens of the fps you were getting on the old PC? If so, have you gone to the same location with the same settings, looking in the same direction and see what your FPS are? What are the temps on your CPU?

    Yeah same settings, gpu and ram was used with my old cpu.
    The 6700k had a max oc of 4.8 ghz but most of the time it was at 4.2 ghz because of heating problems lately.
    The Benchmarks i did back than were with 4.2 ghz.
    My Benchmark area was in Amnoon looking at the water and some rocks basically, take a look at the screenshot below.

    With the 6700k ive got 120 fps there now iam getting 82 fps.

    IPC of the 3900x is higher at the same clock speeds than a 9900k and again higher than a 6700k and the new 3900x is clocking around 4.1 - 4.3 ghz atm.

    But i need to note while my high fps are less now my low fps are way up, playing the boss event atm i get higher fps ive normally did with 6700k, the whole gameplay feels smoother overall.

  • Tony.8659Tony.8659 Member ✭✭
    edited July 16, 2019

    Well they can make something like that DX12 program I linked. It would be much better if Arenanet made that in-house. Being that it does run much better with the DX12 wrapper. Like I posted earlier WoW is much older than GW1 and GW2 yet Blizzard has the game using DX12. Anet just needs to make some kind of official DX12 wrapper. Hell I would be willing to fund that via Kick Starter if they did that :)

  • TinkTinkPOOF.9201TinkTinkPOOF.9201 Member ✭✭✭

    @Braile.3894 said:

    @TinkTinkPOOF.9201 said:

    @Hannelore.8153 said:
    DirectX 9 isn't multi-threaded, and ArenaNet can't just magically fix it. They would have to rewrite the game engine itself.

    No, they wouldn't.

    Direct3D is an API, it's a standard of how the game engine talks the GPU, without it the GPU would not know what to do with the information or calls being made. A game engine covers everything, porting a game over to DX12 does not mean a full engine rewrite. That is not to say it is easy, or just a simple click of a button, but more than doable. However GW2 used DX9 when DX11 had already been out for some time, and DX10 was already end of life, the main reason they stuck with this was xbox of the time used a modified version of DX9, so porting the game over to it would be very simple (read cheap). And even after launch they had plans to release on xbox, they then came to realize that they were never going to get the performance needed to release there, as unlike PC, to release something on xbox means you have to hit given performance metrics with very limited HW, and they are not even willing to put in the time and money to optimize the game for PC with higher end HW no less xbox.

    @Braile.3894 said:

    GPU and CPU are both used barly.
    I also have discord and chrome with multiple tabs including twitch in the background.
    Why is the Game not using the available resources, i get it it can only handel 4 (?) cores but somehow they are not even used at full potential.

    They are used, cores are not threads. A single thread can use up to a full cores clock cycles, however the OS and mobo can move that load around, it does this so a single core doesn't get super hot or taxed, so it spreads it over many physical cores. If only a single core was used until it was 100% and then moved on to the next, those first cores would jump in temp and boost clocks are based on temps, so it would end up reducing the clock speed on that core, actually hurting performance. Some programs can lock them selves to a single physical core, but doing so yourself will not gain you anything unless there are some bugs or very VERY old software.

    Upgrading to the new AMD from a 6700k was, honestly pointless for GW2 and just about any other game, if you wanted higher gains, you should have OCed the 6700k. As the 6700k is about the same single threaded performance as the 3900x, as shown by almost all gaming reviews of the CPU, where it only gains ground in DX12 games over the 6700k, as DX12 can make use of the extra cores.

    With that said, you should not be seeing "performance drop a lot", it should be about the same. Was the 6700k OCed? Are you sure you have all the settings the same? Do you have screens of the fps you were getting on the old PC? If so, have you gone to the same location with the same settings, looking in the same direction and see what your FPS are? What are the temps on your CPU?

    Yeah same settings, gpu and ram was used with my old cpu.
    The 6700k had a max oc of 4.8 ghz but most of the time it was at 4.2 ghz because of heating problems lately.
    The Benchmarks i did back than were with 4.2 ghz.
    My Benchmark area was in Amnoon looking at the water and some rocks basically, take a look at the screenshot below.

    With the 6700k ive got 120 fps there now iam getting 82 fps.

    IPC of the 3900x is higher at the same clock speeds than a 9900k and again higher than a 6700k and the new 3900x is clocking around 4.1 - 4.3 ghz atm.

    But i need to note while my high fps are less now my low fps are way up, playing the boss event atm i get higher fps ive normally did with 6700k, the whole gameplay feels smoother overall.

    Something is going on for that large of a drop. Though AMD does still have bugs they are working out, this could be one of them, which is why it's good to wait before jumping on new gear. Also, it does not have higher IPC, depending on workload, they trade blows with each other when locked core/clock speeds are used, IPC will never be the same across the board, saying something like "IPC is higher on the AMD" is just not understanding how it works.

    To be blunt, the 3900x was a bad choice for GW2, it is, at most places that have it in stock, higher in price than the 9900k, which has been out for a while now, but the 9900k clocks MUCH higher, real world you will probably never see much past the 4.3Ghz you are hitting, with higher load it will drop even more, while the 9900k will hit 5.1Ghz on its own, my own 9900k will do a 5Ghz all core OC. Now, if you do mixed work loads and do production work, the 3900x is a solid choice for the extra threads, but for gaming, the 9900k is still king. Every review out there shows this as well, not sure why people are buying these large threaded lower clocking CPU's and expecting upgrades from Intel chips. I saw streamers do this when threadripper came out, and they didn't understand why their frames tanked.

    @Tony.8659 said:
    Well they can make something like that DX12 program I linked. It would be much better if Arenanet made that in-house. Being that it does run much better with the DX12 wrapper. Like I posted earlier WoW is much older than GW1 and GW2 yet Blizzard has the game using DX12. Anet just needs to make some kind of official DX12 wrapper. Hell I would be willing to fund that via Kick Starter if they did that :)

    Not really. The wrapper is very buggy, as one would expect. The gains are also only on lowend systems for the most part, as it offloads some of the work from the CPU. The guy did a great job with it, but it's far from something you would want to support on a mass scale for people who know nothing about computers, as most people who use it or even know about it, are going to have a better understanding of how to do things on their own.

    Myself as an example, with a 9900k OCed to 5Ghz, it DROPS 60FPS off of my normal FPS of 110-180, 110 being in fights and 180 just roaming around in WvW or somewhere nothing much is going on. While with the wrapper I see upper 60's to 80FPS max. This is something even the guy coding this states, most mid-high end systems will not see gains and might even have issues.

    Anet would need to port the engine over to DX12, while it would not mean a full engine rewrite, it would still mean a lot of work. At this point they would have little monetary reason to do such a thing, as it would mean hiring new people and lots of hours, for a game that has been out so long and on the down trend it would probably never have any ROI to be worth it for them. The next GW maybe, assuming there is one. WoW is not the same in that WoW is a subscription based game, so making constant improvements to the game will bring in new people as well as keep older ones, which means more money, while GW2, they have already bought the game. I would not hold my breath for GW2, outside of maybe a stand alone expansion, to ever get DX12. I would hope GW3 would be based on a different engine, as the engine they are using now is extremely old at this point.

    "When you power creep the game and make it so that spam gameplay is nearly as effective as deep knowledge and nuance, the quality of players will decrease." -Exedore

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Braile.3894 said:
    GPU and CPU are both used barly.

    The 2nd and 5th threads on your last row are used quite a lot, especially the 5th, and that's the problem with the game.

  • Nokomis.5076Nokomis.5076 Member ✭✭✭

    just a side note:

    @Tony.8659 said:
    Like I posted earlier WoW is much older than GW1 and GW2

    Much older than GW2 which came out 2012 maybe, but GW1 came out only one year after WoW, in Europe even in the same year (WoW: Februar 2005, Guild Wars: April 2005)

    Was I able to help you or give you a hint? Click on Helpful and/or Thumbs up, I would appreciate it alot!
    When you encounter a bug ingame, at first you should file a ticket via the ingame command /bug, as only this way the devs will know exactly where you were, when the bug happened.

  • KrHome.1920KrHome.1920 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 17, 2019

    @Braile.3894 said:
    IPC of the 3900x is higher at the same clock speeds than a 9900k

    No it's not. And that's your problem. You think AMD is competitive to Skylake / Coffee Lake (both is bascally the same architecture) in terms of IPC. But I can not blame you as most hardware reviewers are not competent enough to write a good CPU test. The Intel IPC is still 10% higher than AMD in games. Add the higher clock speeds of the CPUs (up to 5GHz, while AMD clocks at least 10% lower) and you get your 20% performance difference.

    Another important factor is RAM speed. If you read a review, that compares a 3900X @ DDR4 3200 with an i7 6700K @ DDR4 2133, just because these are the official memory specs, while in every practical scenario the Intel CPU is combined with XMP RAM @ 3200 MHz or above, you might get the impression that AMD is competitive in terms of IPC as you cripple the Intel IPC by at least 10% just because of the slower RAM.

    Last but not least there are some older games that have problems with AMDs Infinity Fabric (that connects the core modules) and drop significantly when facing that architecture (not saying that this is the case in GW2 because I simply don't know).

  • Braile.3894Braile.3894 Member ✭✭

    OK guys I didn't want to start another Intel vs AMD war.
    As I stated in my first post in every other instance I've got a higher performance than before.

    Now I want to know if anet is working on this, can they even provide a solution or is it that I can't buy any CPU in 2019 that can run gw2 smooth all the time? And if not in what year is it possible to run gw2 smooth that it doesn't drop to 30 fps.

  • SkyShroud.2865SkyShroud.2865 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 18, 2019

    Actually no.
    For pure gaming performance, 9700k and up are better than amd.
    For mainstream users, Ryzen 5 3600 is the choice, nothing intel offer at that price range can beat that. Afterall, one need to go for 9700k for performance which is like 80% price difference for 10% more performance, that's crazy.
    On modern games benchmark 6700k indeed is inferior to Ryzen 5 3600 and above. However, since gw2 is made with an ancient piece of kitten, it is very likely that the game is not optimized at all for amd but optimized heavily for intel.

    Founder & Leader of Equinox Solstice [TIME], a Singapore-Based International PvX Guild
    Henge of Denravi Server
    www.gw2time.com

    --

    Explanations of WvW Structures & Populations Issues

  • TinkTinkPOOF.9201TinkTinkPOOF.9201 Member ✭✭✭

    @Braile.3894 said:
    OK guys I didn't want to start another Intel vs AMD war.
    As I stated in my first post in every other instance I've got a higher performance than before.

    Now I want to know if anet is working on this, can they even provide a solution or is it that I can't buy any CPU in 2019 that can run gw2 smooth all the time? And if not in what year is it possible to run gw2 smooth that it doesn't drop to 30 fps.

    It's not an AMD vs Intel war. We have had a winner in that war for some time now, and it's Intel. From a pure CPU limited gaming stand point.

    Your choice of CPU was poor for GW2, a 9900k would have been a better choice. The fact you get better performance than your old rig in other games has nothing to do with GW2 and it being single thread bottlenecked because it is based on the DX9 API. As at this point you are talking application specific, where for some time, Intel has had the crown in single threaded performance, in both IPC and clock speed, AMD has been catching up in IPC and in most cases now matches them, but is still behind in clock speed. This matters most in gaming, workstation use the new AMD chips are the way to go once all the bugs are worked out of the new platform.

    However, for gaming, the 9900k is still top dog, it's also cheaper than the 3900x. If performance in GW2 matters a lot to you, return the system you have now and get an i7 9xxx or 9900k.

    So no, anet is NOT working on this. The only way to have a large gain from more CPU cores is to move to DX12, which is something they are not going to do. And yes, there are many CPUs you can buy in 2019 that will play the game smooth, I and others have told you, but you don't want to hear it.

    "When you power creep the game and make it so that spam gameplay is nearly as effective as deep knowledge and nuance, the quality of players will decrease." -Exedore

  • SkyShroud.2865SkyShroud.2865 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 20, 2019

    You know, disabling the hyperthreading or what amd called smt can possibly increase the performance for gw2.
    Nobody knows exactly why but this is the same case for 9700k vs 9900k at same clockspeed. Some games just perform poorly on cores with hyperthreading while some games perform well with hyperthreading enabled.
    In fact, people did tested on Ryzen 3000 if disabling smt has any effect and it does. Some games gain more performance while some games dropped.
    Also, it is important to note that Ryzen 3900x beat i7-9900k on I think half of the games tested when smt is disabled while having lower clock speed.

    Founder & Leader of Equinox Solstice [TIME], a Singapore-Based International PvX Guild
    Henge of Denravi Server
    www.gw2time.com

    --

    Explanations of WvW Structures & Populations Issues

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @TinkTinkPOOF.9201 said:
    The fact you get better performance than your old rig in other games has nothing to do with GW2 and it being single thread bottlenecked because it is based on the DX9 API.

    Just to correct this mistake here: DX9 can be very well multi-threaded, you don't need updated versions of DirectX to make a multi-threaded game. Games using all cores have been around for a very long time before DirectX 12 was even announced yet for some reason this idea exists that DX12 is the multi-threaded version and previous versions were single thread bottlenecked.

  • a) make sure your cpu is cooled really well
    b) disable powersaving
    c) pin gw2 to 2 cores

    you are welcome.

  • EnderzShadow.2506EnderzShadow.2506 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Tony.8659 said:
    Well they can make something like that DX12 program I linked. It would be much better if Arenanet made that in-house. Being that it does run much better with the DX12 wrapper. Like I posted earlier WoW is much older than GW1 and GW2 yet Blizzard has the game using DX12. Anet just needs to make some kind of official DX12 wrapper. Hell I would be willing to fund that via Kick Starter if they did that :)

    Wow is not "MUCH" older than Guildwars 1
    I was there playing WoW when GuildWars was released, played Gw when it released.
    WoW was released November 23, 2004
    Guildwars was released April 26, 2005

    5 months. /cheers

    mhm, ok, sure, whatever you say, no after you, I insist, no really, please, be my guest,

  • Calistin.6210Calistin.6210 Member ✭✭
    edited July 22, 2019

    @KrHome.1920 said:

    @Braile.3894 said:
    IPC of the 3900x is higher at the same clock speeds than a 9900k

    No it's not. And that's your problem. You think AMD is competitive to Skylake / Coffee Lake (both is bascally the same architecture) in terms of IPC. But I can not blame you as most hardware reviewers are not competent enough to write a good CPU test. The Intel IPC is still 10% higher than AMD in games. Add the higher clock speeds of the CPUs (up to 5GHz, while AMD clocks at least 10% lower) and you get your 20% performance difference.

    Another important factor is RAM speed. If you read a review, that compares a 3900X @ DDR4 3200 with an i7 6700K @ DDR4 2133, just because these are the official memory specs, while in every practical scenario the Intel CPU is combined with XMP RAM @ 3200 MHz or above, you might get the impression that AMD is competitive in terms of IPC as you cripple the Intel IPC by at least 10% just because of the slower RAM.

    Last but not least there are some older games that have problems with AMDs Infinity Fabric (that connects the core modules) and drop significantly when facing that architecture (not saying that this is the case in GW2 because I simply don't know).

    I am a ryzen fan but pretty much this. Also the 3900 cpu is on two chiplets which mean a bit more latency than say a 3800x or lower will see since they are on one chiplet. Also the sweet spot for ram on the 3k ryzens is not 3200c14 like it is on the 2k cpu but rather 3600c15

    I see lots of people going for the 3900x for gaming and I think in the end they may well be disappointed with what they get as performance overall in gaming. I Like amd they are starting to put some pressure on intel which has been taking advantage and sitting on its kitten for a good while now but for gaming and looking to keep cost low I think the 3700x is they way to go as it give a bit more performance than the 3600 without breaking the bank.

    If you want better than that just for gaming than yeah maybe you should look at the 9900k, myself though I am happy to go AMD this time around as a 3700x will suit my needs just fine and 8 cores should be plenty for the next 5 years or so.

  • ardhikaizecson.3697ardhikaizecson.3697 Member ✭✭
    edited July 22, 2019

    Gw2 cannot any longer sustain modern hardware, I wish they wrapped it up after season 5 and just continuing the story in gw3 or make an effort before the next expansion to upgrade the engine, I mean how many threads already like this since when? Years ago.. not exclusive to amd but i saw plenty who upgraded to intel cpu who also happened to dropped their fps to sub 10 as well.

  • TinkTinkPOOF.9201TinkTinkPOOF.9201 Member ✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @TinkTinkPOOF.9201 said:
    The fact you get better performance than your old rig in other games has nothing to do with GW2 and it being single thread bottlenecked because it is based on the DX9 API.

    Just to correct this mistake here: DX9 can be very well multi-threaded, you don't need updated versions of DirectX to make a multi-threaded game. Games using all cores have been around for a very long time before DirectX 12 was even announced yet for some reason this idea exists that DX12 is the multi-threaded version and previous versions were single thread bottlenecked.

    DX9's render pipeline is single threaded. DX9 can indeed use more than a single core, however the processes and functions are single threaded as DX9 is not default thread safe, while DX10 and on is. Meaning if you do add a multithreaded flag to make the DX9 API thread safe, you will run into significant synchronization overhead.

    "When you power creep the game and make it so that spam gameplay is nearly as effective as deep knowledge and nuance, the quality of players will decrease." -Exedore

  • Nokomis.5076Nokomis.5076 Member ✭✭✭

    Just out of curiousity: How do other MMOs work with multiple cores? I really have no other MMO to compare, thus I ask the peoples experiences here.

    Was I able to help you or give you a hint? Click on Helpful and/or Thumbs up, I would appreciate it alot!
    When you encounter a bug ingame, at first you should file a ticket via the ingame command /bug, as only this way the devs will know exactly where you were, when the bug happened.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @TinkTinkPOOF.9201 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @TinkTinkPOOF.9201 said:
    The fact you get better performance than your old rig in other games has nothing to do with GW2 and it being single thread bottlenecked because it is based on the DX9 API.

    Just to correct this mistake here: DX9 can be very well multi-threaded, you don't need updated versions of DirectX to make a multi-threaded game. Games using all cores have been around for a very long time before DirectX 12 was even announced yet for some reason this idea exists that DX12 is the multi-threaded version and previous versions were single thread bottlenecked.

    DX9's render pipeline is single threaded. DX9 can indeed use more than a single core, however the processes and functions are single threaded as DX9 is not default thread safe, while DX10 and on is. Meaning if you do add a multithreaded flag to make the DX9 API thread safe, you will run into significant synchronization overhead.

    Well DX9 was the primary API used in XBOX360 (directx 10 didn't exist before its release) and it used multiple cores on DX9 game engines just fine. Take a look at CryEngine 3 which is a mostly DirectX 9 engine developed specifically to be multi-threaded in order to run on consoles that had lower single core performance than desktop PCs of the time. Even if there is an overhead, GW2 would benefit greatly from being multi-threaded, without the need for a different API. It all depends on which one is harder to develop I guess, a DX9 multi-threaded engine or a DX10 multi-threaded engine and I have no clue about that.

  • TinkTinkPOOF.9201TinkTinkPOOF.9201 Member ✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @TinkTinkPOOF.9201 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @TinkTinkPOOF.9201 said:
    The fact you get better performance than your old rig in other games has nothing to do with GW2 and it being single thread bottlenecked because it is based on the DX9 API.

    Just to correct this mistake here: DX9 can be very well multi-threaded, you don't need updated versions of DirectX to make a multi-threaded game. Games using all cores have been around for a very long time before DirectX 12 was even announced yet for some reason this idea exists that DX12 is the multi-threaded version and previous versions were single thread bottlenecked.

    DX9's render pipeline is single threaded. DX9 can indeed use more than a single core, however the processes and functions are single threaded as DX9 is not default thread safe, while DX10 and on is. Meaning if you do add a multithreaded flag to make the DX9 API thread safe, you will run into significant synchronization overhead.

    Well DX9 was the primary API used in XBOX360 (directx 10 didn't exist before its release) and it used multiple cores on DX9 game engines just fine. Take a look at CryEngine 3 which is a mostly DirectX 9 engine developed specifically to be multi-threaded in order to run on consoles that had lower single core performance than desktop PCs of the time. Even if there is an overhead, GW2 would benefit greatly from being multi-threaded, without the need for a different API. It all depends on which one is harder to develop I guess, a DX9 multi-threaded engine or a DX10 multi-threaded engine and I have no clue about that.

    I already covered why they used DX9 a number of time including this thread (see post 7). GW2 was planned to be ported to xbox, and keeping the API close meant easy porting.

    You don't seem to understand that having something that can use more than one core and a process or thread that can't be multithreaded due to synchronization issues are not the same thing. GW2 is heavy CPU bound, the games on xbox are not the same as GW2, they were also designed with xbox in mind from the start. xbox port was abandoned because they could not achieve the performance needed, and to release on xbox means hitting specific performance metrics. Just because one game can reach higher frames with a single threaded render pipeline has nothing to do with GW2 being able to do the same.

    "When you power creep the game and make it so that spam gameplay is nearly as effective as deep knowledge and nuance, the quality of players will decrease." -Exedore

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Where is this Gw2 was going to be on xbox coming from?

  • TinkTinkPOOF.9201TinkTinkPOOF.9201 Member ✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    Where is this Gw2 was going to be on xbox coming from?

    The devs.

    They had a dedicated team working on it when GW2 was in beta, and even after release before the idea was scrubbed.

    "When you power creep the game and make it so that spam gameplay is nearly as effective as deep knowledge and nuance, the quality of players will decrease." -Exedore

  • @KrHome.1920 said:

    @Braile.3894 said:
    IPC of the 3900x is higher at the same clock speeds than a 9900k

    No it's not. And that's your problem. You think AMD is competitive to Skylake / Coffee Lake (both is bascally the same architecture) in terms of IPC. But I can not blame you as most hardware reviewers are not competent enough to write a good CPU test. The Intel IPC is still 10% higher than AMD in games. Add the higher clock speeds of the CPUs (up to 5GHz, while AMD clocks at least 10% lower) and you get your 20% performance difference.

    is that before or after all those performance lowering patches you need on intel to plug the architectural holes Intel opened up?

  • crepuscular.9047crepuscular.9047 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Tony.8659 said:
    But Arenanet can invest in the game and try to use a similar approach like the dx12 program I linked. I'm sure they can do a much better job with that. I mean if WoW can do it, I'm sure Arenanet can do something. Example of WoW with DX12: https://www.extremetech.com/gaming/278587-new-world-of-warcraft-optimizations-send-directx-12-performance-soaring

    if Anet is going to do it, it will be done properly, at the engine level

    Ignoring the amount of development effort (time and money) required to reengineer a decade old engine ...

    ... who's going to test it? it's not cheap to hire people to test over 8 years of code, and Anet does not have the amount of human resource pool and money Blizzard can afford to burn upfront... and GW2 does not have as big as WoW brand tag to get support from Microsoft development team to assist them all the way with DX12 optimisation on Windows 7 (DX12 only got released early this year for Windows 7)

    I'm happy if Anet will just continue to push the game to its limit the game engine can, in the background they build a brand new game with new engine, or use 3rd party engine like UE4

    [RIP Fashion Wars 2005-2018]     [TTS] [KA] [SI]     [RIP Fashion Wars 2005-2018]
    Praise the Inevitable Eternal Transcendent King Palawa Ignacious Joko, the Beloved and Feared Undying Eternal Monarch of All !!!
    ... til Aurene ate him for dessert 😭
  • Braile.3894Braile.3894 Member ✭✭
    edited July 23, 2019

    @crepuscular.9047 said:
    I'm happy if Anet will just continue to push the game to its limit the game engine can, in the background they build a brand new game with new engine, or use 3rd party engine like UE4

    totally off topic but i hope not

  • Menyus.4610Menyus.4610 Member ✭✭✭

    @Braile.3894 said:
    Hello, I switched today from my 3 year old intel core I7 6700k to a brand new AMD Ryzen 9 3900x.
    My problem is, performance dropped a lot.
    In other applications i got performance gains or atleast the performance wasn’t noticeable worse.

    Is there any workaround or is there a optimization patch planned?
    I tried to assign the cores separately to gw2 but that didn’t help.

    Hi!

    Are you running, your ryzen processor in Ryzen High perfromance mode? if not please try it.

    Windows button -> select energy scheme(mirror translation from hungarian) -> then change it from balanced to high perfromance, if you are not seeing ryzen high perfromance or ryzen balanced only just the 3 basic energy modes then google the problem

  • Menyus.4610Menyus.4610 Member ✭✭✭

    @Hannelore.8153 said:
    Uhm, I'm a game developer myself, since nearly 20 years, so there's no real point in trying to correct me.

    I can tell you that the graphics engine in GW2 consists of thousands upon thousands of files, mostly shader scripts, including duplicate versions for many different but similar hardware configurations, in order to minimise visual glitches. Its not as easy as it may seem, because it was an old game, ported from the GW1 engine (2001), we're talking Warcraft 3-era technology at its base.

    It would take them hundreds of man-hours in order to rewrite all of the shader code-let alone the graphics engine itself, to a new API version, which they have stated themselves is why there is no OpenGL engine in the Windows version (e.g for use on Wine), because despite one being developed for the modern Mac client, just using an API is only a small piece of the puzzle.

    We're talking about a game in which they can't even add backpiece and weapons dyes because its a hardcoded graphics pipeline, where something that most people would consider simple has been stated to be "impossible", let alone anything more complex.

    IKR, the offical api of d3d12 basically ends with, you need quite a lot of changes to fully utilize the features of d3d12 from d3d11, now imagine this from 9 lol

  • Braile.3894Braile.3894 Member ✭✭

    @Menyus.4610 said:

    @Braile.3894 said:
    Hello, I switched today from my 3 year old intel core I7 6700k to a brand new AMD Ryzen 9 3900x.
    My problem is, performance dropped a lot.
    In other applications i got performance gains or atleast the performance wasn’t noticeable worse.

    Is there any workaround or is there a optimization patch planned?
    I tried to assign the cores separately to gw2 but that didn’t help.

    Hi!

    Are you running, your ryzen processor in Ryzen High perfromance mode? if not please try it.

    Windows button -> select energy scheme(mirror translation from hungarian) -> then change it from balanced to high perfromance, if you are not seeing ryzen high perfromance or ryzen balanced only just the 3 basic energy modes then google the problem

    Hi yes ofc i do that,, temps are also completely fine, it’s properly the gw2 engine which is the bottleneck.

    Overall my low 1% gone up in gw2 but it’s still really sad that sometimes Iam only getting 40 FPS when the cpu sits at 20% and the gpu at 45%.

  • Menyus.4610Menyus.4610 Member ✭✭✭

    @Braile.3894 said:

    @Menyus.4610 said:

    @Braile.3894 said:
    Hello, I switched today from my 3 year old intel core I7 6700k to a brand new AMD Ryzen 9 3900x.
    My problem is, performance dropped a lot.
    In other applications i got performance gains or atleast the performance wasn’t noticeable worse.

    Is there any workaround or is there a optimization patch planned?
    I tried to assign the cores separately to gw2 but that didn’t help.

    Hi!

    Are you running, your ryzen processor in Ryzen High perfromance mode? if not please try it.

    Windows button -> select energy scheme(mirror translation from hungarian) -> then change it from balanced to high perfromance, if you are not seeing ryzen high perfromance or ryzen balanced only just the 3 basic energy modes then google the problem

    Hi yes ofc i do that,, temps are also completely fine, it’s properly the gw2 engine which is the bottleneck.

    Overall my low 1% gone up in gw2 but it’s still really sad that sometimes Iam only getting 40 FPS when the cpu sits at 20% and the gpu at 45%.

    Intresting indeed, on my 3700x im seeing 260 fps :/

  • Amaranthe.3578Amaranthe.3578 Member ✭✭✭

    Don't buy amd.

  • Braile.3894Braile.3894 Member ✭✭

    @Menyus.4610 said:

    @Braile.3894 said:

    @Menyus.4610 said:

    @Braile.3894 said:
    Hello, I switched today from my 3 year old intel core I7 6700k to a brand new AMD Ryzen 9 3900x.
    My problem is, performance dropped a lot.
    In other applications i got performance gains or atleast the performance wasn’t noticeable worse.

    Is there any workaround or is there a optimization patch planned?
    I tried to assign the cores separately to gw2 but that didn’t help.

    Hi!

    Are you running, your ryzen processor in Ryzen High perfromance mode? if not please try it.

    Windows button -> select energy scheme(mirror translation from hungarian) -> then change it from balanced to high perfromance, if you are not seeing ryzen high perfromance or ryzen balanced only just the 3 basic energy modes then google the problem

    Hi yes ofc i do that,, temps are also completely fine, it’s properly the gw2 engine which is the bottleneck.

    Overall my low 1% gone up in gw2 but it’s still really sad that sometimes Iam only getting 40 FPS when the cpu sits at 20% and the gpu at 45%.

    Intresting indeed, on my 3700x im seeing 260 fps :/

    What, how and where? Can you please post your settings + a screenshot of your FPS, sorry I can’t believe any cpu can handle gw2 at 260 fps

  • Menyus.4610Menyus.4610 Member ✭✭✭

    sure, at work will post if at home, (pm ehre again tho if i forget this)

    I achieved it in Hearts of the mists (pvp lobby), near the training npcs (everything on low tho)

  • Menyus.4610Menyus.4610 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 29, 2019

    @Braile.3894 said:

    @Menyus.4610 said:

    @Braile.3894 said:

    @Menyus.4610 said:

    @Braile.3894 said:
    Hello, I switched today from my 3 year old intel core I7 6700k to a brand new AMD Ryzen 9 3900x.
    My problem is, performance dropped a lot.
    In other applications i got performance gains or atleast the performance wasn’t noticeable worse.

    Is there any workaround or is there a optimization patch planned?
    I tried to assign the cores separately to gw2 but that didn’t help.

    Hi!

    Are you running, your ryzen processor in Ryzen High perfromance mode? if not please try it.

    Windows button -> select energy scheme(mirror translation from hungarian) -> then change it from balanced to high perfromance, if you are not seeing ryzen high perfromance or ryzen balanced only just the 3 basic energy modes then google the problem

    Hi yes ofc i do that,, temps are also completely fine, it’s properly the gw2 engine which is the bottleneck.

    Overall my low 1% gone up in gw2 but it’s still really sad that sometimes Iam only getting 40 FPS when the cpu sits at 20% and the gpu at 45%.

    Intresting indeed, on my 3700x im seeing 260 fps :/

    What, how and where? Can you please post your settings + a screenshot of your FPS, sorry I can’t believe any cpu can handle gw2 at 260 fps

    Settings and fps on image

    Pc Specs:

    CPU: Ryzen 3700x constant 4.2ghz

    RAM: Kingston Predator 3200mhz rbg HX432C16PB3AK2/16 16gb

    MOB: Gigabyte Gaming wifi 7

    GPU: Currently not available for general customers(you wont find info about it), but i can confirm this fps on my beloved gtx 760 direct CUII

    Image: https://imgur.com/m9U312n

  • Sindariel.2354Sindariel.2354 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 29, 2019

    In the corner of the map with no players around, while looking at the ground at low settings.... gg

  • Braile.3894Braile.3894 Member ✭✭

    @Menyus.4610 said:

    @Braile.3894 said:

    @Menyus.4610 said:

    @Braile.3894 said:

    @Menyus.4610 said:

    @Braile.3894 said:
    Hello, I switched today from my 3 year old intel core I7 6700k to a brand new AMD Ryzen 9 3900x.
    My problem is, performance dropped a lot.
    In other applications i got performance gains or atleast the performance wasn’t noticeable worse.

    Is there any workaround or is there a optimization patch planned?
    I tried to assign the cores separately to gw2 but that didn’t help.

    Hi!

    Are you running, your ryzen processor in Ryzen High perfromance mode? if not please try it.

    Windows button -> select energy scheme(mirror translation from hungarian) -> then change it from balanced to high perfromance, if you are not seeing ryzen high perfromance or ryzen balanced only just the 3 basic energy modes then google the problem

    Hi yes ofc i do that,, temps are also completely fine, it’s properly the gw2 engine which is the bottleneck.

    Overall my low 1% gone up in gw2 but it’s still really sad that sometimes Iam only getting 40 FPS when the cpu sits at 20% and the gpu at 45%.

    Intresting indeed, on my 3700x im seeing 260 fps :/

    What, how and where? Can you please post your settings + a screenshot of your FPS, sorry I can’t believe any cpu can handle gw2 at 260 fps

    Settings and fps on image

    Pc Specs:

    CPU: Ryzen 3700x constant 4.2ghz

    RAM: Kingston Predator 3200mhz rbg HX432C16PB3AK2/16 16gb

    MOB: Gigabyte Gaming wifi 7

    GPU: Currently not available for general customers(you wont find info about it), but i can confirm this fps on my beloved gtx 760 direct CUII

    Image: https://imgur.com/m9U312n

    Ok dude i get you, but kitten looking at literally nothing while set everything to the lowest doesn't mean you get 260 fps at normal gameplay.
    For example ofc i can get the same fps by doing the same stuff looking at nothing, that is not the point of my post because i want the game to be more optimised overall and not when i look at nothing.
    Check top left corner for fps.

  • Menyus.4610Menyus.4610 Member ✭✭✭

    @Braile.3894 said:

    @Menyus.4610 said:

    @Braile.3894 said:

    @Menyus.4610 said:

    @Braile.3894 said:

    @Menyus.4610 said:

    @Braile.3894 said:
    Hello, I switched today from my 3 year old intel core I7 6700k to a brand new AMD Ryzen 9 3900x.
    My problem is, performance dropped a lot.
    In other applications i got performance gains or atleast the performance wasn’t noticeable worse.

    Is there any workaround or is there a optimization patch planned?
    I tried to assign the cores separately to gw2 but that didn’t help.

    Hi!

    Are you running, your ryzen processor in Ryzen High perfromance mode? if not please try it.

    Windows button -> select energy scheme(mirror translation from hungarian) -> then change it from balanced to high perfromance, if you are not seeing ryzen high perfromance or ryzen balanced only just the 3 basic energy modes then google the problem

    Hi yes ofc i do that,, temps are also completely fine, it’s properly the gw2 engine which is the bottleneck.

    Overall my low 1% gone up in gw2 but it’s still really sad that sometimes Iam only getting 40 FPS when the cpu sits at 20% and the gpu at 45%.

    Intresting indeed, on my 3700x im seeing 260 fps :/

    What, how and where? Can you please post your settings + a screenshot of your FPS, sorry I can’t believe any cpu can handle gw2 at 260 fps

    Settings and fps on image

    Pc Specs:

    CPU: Ryzen 3700x constant 4.2ghz

    RAM: Kingston Predator 3200mhz rbg HX432C16PB3AK2/16 16gb

    MOB: Gigabyte Gaming wifi 7

    GPU: Currently not available for general customers(you wont find info about it), but i can confirm this fps on my beloved gtx 760 direct CUII

    Image: https://imgur.com/m9U312n

    Ok dude i get you, but kitten looking at literally nothing while set everything to the lowest doesn't mean you get 260 fps at normal gameplay.
    For example ofc i can get the same fps by doing the same stuff looking at nothing, that is not the point of my post because i want the game to be more optimised overall and not when i look at nothing.
    Check top left corner for fps.

    None said i can achieve 260 constant fps especially in crowded regions, btw i was running and near the training npcs is not relly the corner of the map also i ainbt wanted to look the freaking floor cos ofc i can have 300+ fps too, thats why i said im seeing 260 fps, also my avg fps is between 60-160 fps depends on the region

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Menyus.4610 said:
    Settings and fps on image

    Pc Specs:

    CPU: Ryzen 3700x constant 4.2ghz

    RAM: Kingston Predator 3200mhz rbg HX432C16PB3AK2/16 16gb

    MOB: Gigabyte Gaming wifi 7

    GPU: Currently not available for general customers(you wont find info about it), but i can confirm this fps on my beloved gtx 760 direct CUII

    Image: https://imgur.com/m9U312n

    Sad part is, if you have such a system and use ultra low settings it's not really worth it

  • Lord of the Fire.6870Lord of the Fire.6870 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 30, 2019

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @TinkTinkPOOF.9201 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @TinkTinkPOOF.9201 said:
    The fact you get better performance than your old rig in other games has nothing to do with GW2 and it being single thread bottlenecked because it is based on the DX9 API.

    Just to correct this mistake here: DX9 can be very well multi-threaded, you don't need updated versions of DirectX to make a multi-threaded game. Games using all cores have been around for a very long time before DirectX 12 was even announced yet for some reason this idea exists that DX12 is the multi-threaded version and previous versions were single thread bottlenecked.

    DX9's render pipeline is single threaded. DX9 can indeed use more than a single core, however the processes and functions are single threaded as DX9 is not default thread safe, while DX10 and on is. Meaning if you do add a multithreaded flag to make the DX9 API thread safe, you will run into significant synchronization overhead.

    Well DX9 was the primary API used in XBOX360 (directx 10 didn't exist before its release) and it used multiple cores on DX9 game engines just fine. Take a look at CryEngine 3 which is a mostly DirectX 9 engine developed specifically to be multi-threaded in order to run on consoles that had lower single core performance than desktop PCs of the time. Even if there is an overhead, GW2 would benefit greatly from being multi-threaded, without the need for a different API. It all depends on which one is harder to develop I guess, a DX9 multi-threaded engine or a DX10 multi-threaded engine and I have no clue about that.

    Okay I'm not an expert about this but from what I understand is that with dx9 multithreading they done it manually basically each thread was a queue which worked on specific commands which then must be synchronized. With later versions direct X version they took that over and managed it on their own and reduced further and further the overhead this is what stays behind asynchronous commands & shaders in DirectX 12. Means Direct X 12 already use mulit-threading internally at least so far I do understand it.

    Means the addon dx9pxy already does this. What you could still do then is the MVC running in different threads (c)ontrol means in this case only mouse and keyboard those are from the game perspective read only (m)odel is the what comes from the network and what will be send to it (v)iew is mainly the rendering process which await input from the model. When you looking at this way you can split things for mulit-threading very easily especially since the main logic is on a server not on the client.

    Funny fact is with this you can can still process player inputs even when the games totally lags mean even with 0 fps you can still cast your skills.

    small rant on the side
    On the other hand in Gw2 when we want to roll with V or press a direction button twice it doesn't take buttons for the direction which is much simpler no it takes the direction you actually running on the screen so when you have a lag and you don't move because of this you end up with a standard roll backwards. Which got countless WvW commanders get into screaming why the hell so many dodged backwards while he said roll through them.

  • Menyus.4610Menyus.4610 Member ✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Menyus.4610 said:
    Settings and fps on image

    Pc Specs:

    CPU: Ryzen 3700x constant 4.2ghz

    RAM: Kingston Predator 3200mhz rbg HX432C16PB3AK2/16 16gb

    MOB: Gigabyte Gaming wifi 7

    GPU: Currently not available for general customers(you wont find info about it), but i can confirm this fps on my beloved gtx 760 direct CUII

    Image: https://imgur.com/m9U312n

    Sad part is, if you have such a system and use ultra low settings it's not really worth it

    I only do pvp and wvw, where bigger fps is quite an advantage....

  • DoomNexus.5324DoomNexus.5324 Member ✭✭✭

    @Braile.3894 said:

    @crepuscular.9047 said:
    I'm happy if Anet will just continue to push the game to its limit the game engine can, in the background they build a brand new game with new engine, or use 3rd party engine like UE4

    totally off topic but i hope not

    Yea I hope not as well.. People keep forgetting that engines are an extremely complex piece of tool. So developing one is very complex stuff, if you want to go for versatility the complexity rises probably exponentially.. Like it's moderately easy to develop an engine that runs a superb looking game on 1 console (one of many reasons why some games are console exclusive) but trying to support multiple CPUs, GPUs (even different architectures) and OS with a very wide variety of performance of the rig is extremely challenging. Additionally for a MMO you have to think about a clever way to incorporate clustering and various online mechanics (technology wise, not like ingame features) as well.
    On top of that it still needs an editor too so you need to provide dedicated pipelines to make the workflow of devs as efficient as possible. So developing an engine is a tough task on its own.
    And even if you eventually got the engine to a point where you can actually develop a game with it, it's not like your dev team will immediately produce your regular high quality stuff even if they are experienced game developers in general. The best analogy I can think of atm is it like you'd give a trumpet player a trombone and ask him to play.. extremely similar instruments and techniques needed but it's just not quite the same stuff, you still need to learn and practice a lot.

    I guess that's also a big reason to why a lot of asian mmos are STILL being developed with UE3 even tho UE4 has been around and very accessible for ages now. Just because those devs know UE3 and training them for UE4 is probably not really worth it for a MMO since you need a ton of content to begin with and quick update cycles.

    @topic:
    yea.. GW2 isn't multicore friendly and this information has been around for ages, you'd want to go for max single core performance and in this regard Intel takes the cake in general. But then again not EVERY intel cpu will run well obviously - intel also develops different cpus for different applications and stuff.. an i9 would be a complete waste of money if your concern is running gw2 smoothly for example. You'd probably even be better off with a good i5 then.
    Get a good quad or hexa core cpu (I mean.. you won't optimize for gw2 alone let's be honest, but even a good quad core cpu is still sufficient for 99% of the games out atm and I don't think it will change very fast..) with the highest possible frequency, ideally overclockable, get a good cooling system and a matching, high frequency RAM and since nobody has mentioned it already: make sure your mainboard supports those speeds as well. Like.. if your mainboard can only support 2133MHz your 3600MHz RAM won't do anything for you.

  • TinkTinkPOOF.9201TinkTinkPOOF.9201 Member ✭✭✭

    @DoomNexus.5324 said:

    @Braile.3894 said:

    @crepuscular.9047 said:
    I'm happy if Anet will just continue to push the game to its limit the game engine can, in the background they build a brand new game with new engine, or use 3rd party engine like UE4

    totally off topic but i hope not

    Yea I hope not as well.. People keep forgetting that engines are an extremely complex piece of tool. So developing one is very complex stuff, if you want to go for versatility the complexity rises probably exponentially.. Like it's moderately easy to develop an engine that runs a superb looking game on 1 console (one of many reasons why some games are console exclusive) but trying to support multiple CPUs, GPUs (even different architectures) and OS with a very wide variety of performance of the rig is extremely challenging. Additionally for a MMO you have to think about a clever way to incorporate clustering and various online mechanics (technology wise, not like ingame features) as well.
    On top of that it still needs an editor too so you need to provide dedicated pipelines to make the workflow of devs as efficient as possible. So developing an engine is a tough task on its own.
    And even if you eventually got the engine to a point where you can actually develop a game with it, it's not like your dev team will immediately produce your regular high quality stuff even if they are experienced game developers in general. The best analogy I can think of atm is it like you'd give a trumpet player a trombone and ask him to play.. extremely similar instruments and techniques needed but it's just not quite the same stuff, you still need to learn and practice a lot.

    I guess that's also a big reason to why a lot of asian mmos are STILL being developed with UE3 even tho UE4 has been around and very accessible for ages now. Just because those devs know UE3 and training them for UE4 is probably not really worth it for a MMO since you need a ton of content to begin with and quick update cycles.

    @topic:
    yea.. GW2 isn't multicore friendly and this information has been around for ages, you'd want to go for max single core performance and in this regard Intel takes the cake in general. But then again not EVERY intel cpu will run well obviously - intel also develops different cpus for different applications and stuff.. an i9 would be a complete waste of money if your concern is running gw2 smoothly for example. You'd probably even be better off with a good i5 then.
    Get a good quad or hexa core cpu (I mean.. you won't optimize for gw2 alone let's be honest, but even a good quad core cpu is still sufficient for 99% of the games out atm and I don't think it will change very fast..) with the highest possible frequency, ideally overclockable, get a good cooling system and a matching, high frequency RAM and since nobody has mentioned it already: make sure your mainboard supports those speeds as well. Like.. if your mainboard can only support 2133MHz your 3600MHz RAM won't do anything for you.

    You don't have to code each GPU or CPU in a game engine, that's the point of the D3D API and GPU drivers, no one programs games at that low of a level, not even DX12. The game engine will use a given D3D API, which means the game engine out puts to those standards and features, of which the drivers of the GPU then handle for processing if the GPU is compatible with that version of DX. Which is one of the reason MMO's are SUPER slow to move to anything new, as the bulk of most MMO players are not serious players and often don't build a PC for gaming or have much older hardware, so adopting the newest standards would stop most of the people who are playing MMO's, without building/upgrading their computers. It is only pretty recent that most computers have HW that supports DX12, and most of that is due to Intel and AMD iGPUs and not dedicated GPUs. So moving to something new like DX12 at the time of release would mean huge loss in sales or having to maintain compatibility to older DX versions, which would be a nightmare.

    Another thing about game engines is that most devs are lazy/cheap, they don't want to move away from something they have whole libraries for, UE3 also had a straight licensing deal, most bigger games I think it was often still under $1 million for it, but most were closed door deals and no one paid the same. UE4 also has licensing costs but also includes a royalty on each game sold, something like 5%, meaning it can end up costing WAY more than UE3 ever did, in GW2 case from the sales numbers I have seen, UE4 would cost them over 3 fold what a UE3 license would have. It's a really smart move for Epic, as it's a continuous pay model for games, not just a one time deal. But there are MANY factors on why a game dev picks one engine over another, and in most cases, it's because of cost, unless you are talking tripple A games with massive budgets

    "When you power creep the game and make it so that spam gameplay is nearly as effective as deep knowledge and nuance, the quality of players will decrease." -Exedore

  • @TinkTinkPOOF.9201 said:

    @DoomNexus.5324 said:

    @Braile.3894 said:

    @crepuscular.9047 said:
    I'm happy if Anet will just continue to push the game to its limit the game engine can, in the background they build a brand new game with new engine, or use 3rd party engine like UE4

    totally off topic but i hope not

    Yea I hope not as well.. People keep forgetting that engines are an extremely complex piece of tool. So developing one is very complex stuff, if you want to go for versatility the complexity rises probably exponentially.. Like it's moderately easy to develop an engine that runs a superb looking game on 1 console (one of many reasons why some games are console exclusive) but trying to support multiple CPUs, GPUs (even different architectures) and OS with a very wide variety of performance of the rig is extremely challenging. Additionally for a MMO you have to think about a clever way to incorporate clustering and various online mechanics (technology wise, not like ingame features) as well.
    On top of that it still needs an editor too so you need to provide dedicated pipelines to make the workflow of devs as efficient as possible. So developing an engine is a tough task on its own.
    And even if you eventually got the engine to a point where you can actually develop a game with it, it's not like your dev team will immediately produce your regular high quality stuff even if they are experienced game developers in general. The best analogy I can think of atm is it like you'd give a trumpet player a trombone and ask him to play.. extremely similar instruments and techniques needed but it's just not quite the same stuff, you still need to learn and practice a lot.

    I guess that's also a big reason to why a lot of asian mmos are STILL being developed with UE3 even tho UE4 has been around and very accessible for ages now. Just because those devs know UE3 and training them for UE4 is probably not really worth it for a MMO since you need a ton of content to begin with and quick update cycles.

    @topic:
    yea.. GW2 isn't multicore friendly and this information has been around for ages, you'd want to go for max single core performance and in this regard Intel takes the cake in general. But then again not EVERY intel cpu will run well obviously - intel also develops different cpus for different applications and stuff.. an i9 would be a complete waste of money if your concern is running gw2 smoothly for example. You'd probably even be better off with a good i5 then.
    Get a good quad or hexa core cpu (I mean.. you won't optimize for gw2 alone let's be honest, but even a good quad core cpu is still sufficient for 99% of the games out atm and I don't think it will change very fast..) with the highest possible frequency, ideally overclockable, get a good cooling system and a matching, high frequency RAM and since nobody has mentioned it already: make sure your mainboard supports those speeds as well. Like.. if your mainboard can only support 2133MHz your 3600MHz RAM won't do anything for you.

    You don't have to code each GPU or CPU in a game engine, that's the point of the D3D API and GPU drivers, no one programs games at that low of a level, not even DX12. The game engine will use a given D3D API, which means the game engine out puts to those standards and features, of which the drivers of the GPU then handle for processing if the GPU is compatible with that version of DX. Which is one of the reason MMO's are SUPER slow to move to anything new, as the bulk of most MMO players are not serious players and often don't build a PC for gaming or have much older hardware, so adopting the newest standards would stop most of the people who are playing MMO's, without building/upgrading their computers. It is only pretty recent that most computers have HW that supports DX12, and most of that is due to Intel and AMD iGPUs and not dedicated GPUs. So moving to something new like DX12 at the time of release would mean huge loss in sales or having to maintain compatibility to older DX versions, which would be a nightmare.

    Another thing about game engines is that most devs are lazy/cheap, they don't want to move away from something they have whole libraries for, UE3 also had a straight licensing deal, most bigger games I think it was often still under $1 million for it, but most were closed door deals and no one paid the same. UE4 also has licensing costs but also includes a royalty on each game sold, something like 5%, meaning it can end up costing WAY more than UE3 ever did, in GW2 case from the sales numbers I have seen, UE4 would cost them over 3 fold what a UE3 license would have. It's a really smart move for Epic, as it's a continuous pay model for games, not just a one time deal. But there are MANY factors on why a game dev picks one engine over another, and in most cases, it's because of cost, unless you are talking tripple A games with massive budgets

    This is one of the reason but win 7(which also have dx12 since the start of this year) support ends next year and every win 10 system needs a dx12 compatible graphic cards which is a pre requirement for installing win 10.

    Just be short I'm absolute would love to see an overwork of gw2 engine but I also know its complicated. One other reason is possible money it would roughly takes 5 people a half year to do this . Which properly means the mother concern NSC soft has also to say about this . They will most likely only get an okay for this when they plan to evolve the engine even further for NSC to make a platform out of this for all future desktop MMOs out of this meaning they will not stop there what I said they will make it open world compatible by implementing a gcc ( you wouldn't do this for gw 2 but basically make forge after all needed stuff is implemented) which then continue the project out side of gw2.

    The other problem is getting personal which can program in dx9 and dx12 there aren't much people who can do this because every one using unity , unreal or just blender were the work is done for you.

    There is also the problem with dx12 you will need to use a new version of visual studio I know from others that people who maintaining games on dx9 are mostly(perhaps not?) stucked with Visual studio 2008 for using dx12 you will need the newest version of Visual Studio . Back then a lot of libraries from MS were a lot more their own thing instead of the ANSI standard, auto conversion of the project usually always fail when you try to immigrate it to a newer version of VS so you have to setup the whole project manually per hand starting just from the code and then change 'some' line of code( some = in the 100ths lines) and looking up with google what they have done to the library . -.- yes I done something like this before .. a few times. The benefit of this you also have access to all new libraries , better compiler optimization , better debug tools, better code highlighting

  • OGDeadHead.8326OGDeadHead.8326 Member ✭✭✭

    @Lord of the Fire.6870 said:
    This is one of the reason but win 7 (which also have dx12 since the start of this year)

    Not really, dx12 support for Win7 is only for a select few games, ported on a game-by-game basis.

  • XenoSpyro.1780XenoSpyro.1780 Member ✭✭✭

    @Amaranthe.3578 said:
    Don't buy amd.

    This is your brain on 2011. Don't do drugs, cubs.

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